PDA

View Full Version : O.S.Q.O.T.D.: Swap out PFs from today and the 90's, who looks better, who looks worse



JasonJohnHorn
03-13-2014, 09:42 AM
The back-to-the-basket rules, coupled with the hand-checking, really shifted how teams ran their offense, facilitating wing players like McGrady, Carter, Kobe, Wade and Durant (all of whom are EXTREMELY talented players).

For front court players, the game has changed. There a few guys who would be perenial All-Stars in the 80's and early 90's, who can't make the team now, and there are guys who were considered among the best at their positions whose numbers might take a huge hit today.


For current players, I think a guy like Al Jefferson, or Marcin Gortat would benefit immensely with the old rules. Likewise, I think a guy like Garnett, who is already among the best ever at his position, would have been an even more prolific offensive player if allowed to spend more time working to get position in the paint.


Guys like Barkley, on the other hand, as amazing as he was (he remains one of my favorite players), as well as Ewing, would likely struggle to be as big an offensive impact if they were not allowed to spend more time working their position in the post.



Other guys, like Robinson, Hakeem, Garnett, Malone, Duncan; they have a skillset that translate to both games and allows them to excel, but some guys are not as lucky.


Who do you think would be better back in the day, or who from back in the day do you think would struggle with today's rules?

And do you prefer this style of play? Are the lack of great bigs more a result of the rules? Or a lack of talent?


I miss the post play.... but, c'est la vie.

Walt
03-13-2014, 11:13 AM
Dirk would still dominate in that era. Michael Jordan seems to think so, so that's a good start.

Chronz
03-13-2014, 02:58 PM
The back-to-the-basket rules, coupled with the hand-checking, really shifted how teams ran their offense, facilitating wing players like McGrady, Carter, Kobe, Wade and Durant (all of whom are EXTREMELY talented players).
Just FYI, handchecking didn't really help Tmac the way it helped those other guys, he was on the decline by the time they came out. And you could argue many of these guys would be more productive in the free flowing 80's. Not that I think there would be much of a difference, just saying the argument can work both ways.


For front court players, the game has changed. There a few guys who would be perenial All-Stars in the 80's and early 90's, who can't make the team now, and there are guys who were considered among the best at their positions whose numbers might take a huge hit today.
Wait, by make the team, you mean the All-Star team right?



For current players, I think a guy like Al Jefferson, or Marcin Gortat would benefit immensely with the old rules. Likewise, I think a guy like Garnett, who is already among the best ever at his position, would have been an even more prolific offensive player if allowed to spend more time working to get position in the paint.

I think KG was tailor made for todays game, he wasn't bulky and was insanely quick for his position. Was more of a team player than go-to scorer that prior era's favored, so he had the passing intelligence to take advantage of teams throwing zones (that weren't legal back then), and his quickness made him the perfect anchor for one of the stingiest zone defenses of all-time.


Guys like Barkley, on the other hand, as amazing as he was (he remains one of my favorite players), as well as Ewing, would likely struggle to be as big an offensive impact if they were not allowed to spend more time working their position in the post.
Young Chuck was a hell of a slasher and in his later days began playing more on the perimeter, I cant imagine anyone trying to defend him without handchecking. Dont think there would be much difference considering he too had the passing intelligence to murder zones. Ewing on the other hand, I can see. He lost his quickness pretty early and wasn't much of a passer.



Who do you think would be better back in the day, or who from back in the day do you think would struggle with today's rules?

Bigmen who lacked passing acumen to take advantage of teams zones or lacked the awareness to position themselves off the ball. My guess would be undersized finishers who needed to hog the ball. But for the most part, that doesn't consists of star players, those guys were stars for various reasons, if you minimize one aspect of their game, they would kill you with something else. I could totally see Chuck facing up more, its what he did when they first disallowed his pet move of backing down for an eternity. In todays NBA, I can see Chuck soaring for a rebound, running down the court and clearing out for his own post up rather than setting up shop as often as he did and waiting for the delivery.

To find the guys who would be most effected by the rule changes, you have to go back into the 60's/70's IMO, but thats because its a more drastic change in play, the likes of which they were less able to adapt to because there simply was no reason to. Hell, take out the 3pt line, restrict ball handling/palming rules the way they were in the old days and some of todays players would have a hard time adapting. When the changes are subtly implemented, its easier to adapt, as opposed to changes that happened over the course of decades.

The only guys we can safely say wouldn't translate across eras, are guys who didn't last (or declined drastically) because they couldn't adapt to their own leagues evolution. But looking at history, you see guys who played in the 50's, that got better in the 60's, guys from the 60's who proved they could play in the 70's, and so on and so forth, also there are guys like Kareem who bridge several eras together.


And do you prefer this style of play? Are the lack of great bigs more a result of the rules? Or a lack of talent?

Injuries to our best bigmen prospects are to blame. Yao would be better off in the older era, but he proved that if the players around him are dedicated to getting him the ball, you could run a post heavy offense in the new era. I think his struggles have mostly come defensively.
No doubt, todays game has made it harder for bigs, but I dont go to the extreme of saying it completely transforms a player from All-Star to non-star, unless you're talking about a fringe All-Star who was questionable in his own era.

The Post entree pass is also a dying art, a guy like Tmac was one of the best post entree passers in the game, really helped Yao out. Our bigmen today aren't quite the athletic marvels that guys like D-Rob, Moses, Hakeem were. But yes, I can see them slightly diminished today, emphasis on the word slightly.

JasonJohnHorn
03-13-2014, 03:17 PM
Just FYI, handchecking didn't really help Tmac the way it helped those other guys, he was on the decline by the time they came out. And you could argue many of these guys would be more productive in the free flowing 80's. Not that I think there would be much of a difference, just saying the argument can work both ways.


Wait, by make the team, you mean the All-Star team right?



I think KG was tailor made for todays game, he wasn't bulky and was insanely quick for his position. Was more of a team player than go-to scorer that prior era's favored, so he had the passing intelligence to take advantage of teams throwing zones (that weren't legal back then), and his quickness made him the perfect anchor for one of the stingiest zone defenses of all-time.


Young Chuck was a hell of a slasher and in his later days began playing more on the perimeter, I cant imagine anyone trying to defend him without handchecking. Dont think there would be much difference considering he too had the passing intelligence to murder zones. Ewing on the other hand, I can see. He lost his quickness pretty early and wasn't much of a passer.



Bigmen who lacked passing acumen to take advantage of teams zones or lacked the awareness to position themselves off the ball. My guess would be undersized finishers who needed to hog the ball. But for the most part, that doesn't consists of star players, those guys were stars for various reasons, if you minimize one aspect of their game, they would kill you with something else. I could totally see Chuck facing up more, its what he did when they first disallowed his pet move of backing down for an eternity. In todays NBA, I can see Chuck soaring for a rebound, running down the court and clearing out for his own post up rather than setting up shop as often as he did and waiting for the delivery.

To find the guys who would be most effected by the rule changes, you have to go back into the 60's/70's IMO, but thats because its a more drastic change in play, the likes of which they were less able to adapt to because there simply was no reason to. Hell, take out the 3pt line, restrict ball handling/palming rules the way they were in the old days and some of todays players would have a hard time adapting. When the changes are subtly implemented, its easier to adapt, as opposed to changes that happened over the course of decades.

The only guys we can safely say wouldn't translate across eras, are guys who didn't last (or declined drastically) because they couldn't adapt to their own leagues evolution. But looking at history, you see guys who played in the 50's, that got better in the 60's, guys from the 60's who proved they could play in the 70's, and so on and so forth, also there are guys like Kareem who bridge several eras together.


Injuries to our best bigmen prospects are to blame. Yao wouldn't be as effective as he would be in the era where you couldn't trap off the ball, but if the players around him are dedicated to getting him the ball, he proved you could run a post heavy offense in the new era. I think his struggles have mostly come defensively.
No doubt, todays game has made it harder for bigs, but I dont go to the extreme of saying it completely transforms a player from All-Star to non-star, unless you're talking about a fringe All-Star who was questionable in either era.

The Post entree pass is also a dying art, a guy like Tmac was one of the best post entree passers in the game, really helped Yao out.

GREAT ANSWER!! Good analysis for T-Mac.. I just mentioned that in passing because the rules seem to facilitate wing-play, but yeah. McGrady could have put up crazy numbers in the 80's.

Good points on Garnett as well.

Chronz
03-13-2014, 03:20 PM
Hibbert is a guy who was meant to play in the 90's. Plodding giants with mechanical moves.

Its funny, I think a younger Zo was better for todays game but older Zo was better off (offensively at least) in the era before zones.

abe_froman
03-13-2014, 03:28 PM
Who do you think would be better back in the day, or who from back in the day do you think would struggle with today's rules?
i think barkley would be unstoppable in today's nba,early him,and put hibbert back in the 80's/90's and he's a star

Are the lack of great bigs more a result of the rules? Or a lack of talent?
lack of instruction,bigmen is a highly specialized/unique position with that skillset and these kids are going from aau,where the coaches are hand picked shysters looking to make a buck and not really looking to teach(and lack the knowledge to teach even if they wanted to) to one and done at college and on to being thrown out there into the nba.good bigmen,post game takes a lot of time and training to develop and nobody has the willingness or the opportunity to teach it


I miss the post play.... but, c'est la vie.
i use to feel it overrated and didnt miss it at first,but now that its all but gone ,i actually do to now

Chronz
03-13-2014, 07:41 PM
i use to feel it overrated and didnt miss it at first,but now that its all but gone ,i actually do to now

Amen, its all about inverted offenses nowadays. Kind of wish the NBA would do away with handchecking and disallow zones again. It was too much when they allowed both tho.

JasonJohnHorn
03-13-2014, 09:58 PM
Amen, its all about inverted offenses nowadays. Kind of wish the NBA would do away with handchecking and disallow zones again. It was too much when they allowed both tho.

I love that sig! Posterizing your own teammate? BRILLIANT!

slashsnake
03-13-2014, 11:24 PM
Well I think it's been a gradual process that has worked its way up to the NBA.

3pt line and closer NBA 3pt line has led to more emphasis on shooters, and outside scoring.

High paced offenses have pushed away from the "feed the post, kick out, re-post, feed back in, make a move, kick out, repost, feed back in" kind of offenses that teams ran in the earlier years. There's the transition game, where your 7 foot center is 5 minutes behind the offense with the other teams 7 foot rim protector.

And if you are a GM. Do you take the next great center or the next great wing? Do you take a risk he'll have leg injuries like Oden? Walton? Ming? That's 285+ lbs on those knees and ankles.

When you are a kid, do you want to dunk like Blake, shoot like Dirk or have fundamentals like Duncan, play the post like Hibbert? Guess what great highschool players are emulating. Not Shaq or Ewing. If they are a big they are wanting to be the next Dirk or Blake. Taking the crossover for the big dunk instead of the post up and skyhook.

And where did centers get that great coaching? Guys like John Thompson who would spend four years working with their fundamentals. Guys like Dave Odom and Loren Woods who nearly redshirted Duncan just to work on his post game his freshman year (injury to another big changed that plan).



And as scoring continues to swing away from the back to the basket centers, so will high school play, recruiting focus, drafting desire, etc.

DreamShaker
03-14-2014, 01:03 AM
Derrick Coleman, Larry Johnson, Brad Daugherty, and Ralph Sampson (80's guy, but still) would be great in this era. David West would be pefect for the 90's. Zach Randolph as well.