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TorontoHuskies
03-12-2014, 05:51 PM
According to Hoops Hype Canada Ujiri's #1 FA target this summer is Kenneth Faried. He'd be a good pickup for sure but I would have hoped Ujiri has goals higher than that.

Bob_at_york
03-12-2014, 06:01 PM
According to Hoops Hype Canada Ujiri's #1 FA target this summer is Kenneth Faried. He'd be a good pickup for sure but I would have hoped Ujiri has goals higher than that.
I am sure that Ujiri is hoping to acquire Faried this summer, I could tell that from his comments in interviews last week. But hoops hype is wrong, Faried is not a free agent. Ujiri is going to try and trade for Faried. I think his #1 FA target is Lowry and than after that Deng.

Jays Claw
03-12-2014, 06:11 PM
^ I'm not too sure MU would be quick to fork up $$$ to an injury-riddled player like Deng especially considering T.Ross is just showing glimpses of what he's capable of.

If for Faried however, I wouldn't mind Ross taking a back seat or even being sent the other way in a deal and MU wouldn't either most likely.

ink
03-12-2014, 06:16 PM
^ I'm not too sure MU would be quick to fork up $$$ to an injury-riddled player like Deng especially considering T.Ross is just showing glimpses of what he's capable of.

If for Faried however, I wouldn't mind Ross taking a back seat or even being sent the other way in a deal and MU wouldn't either most likely.

I would rather go with Ross than Deng. A regressive long term move IMO and not our biggest weakness.

TorontoHuskies
03-12-2014, 06:36 PM
^ I'm not too sure MU would be quick to fork up $$$ to an injury-riddled player like Deng especially considering T.Ross is just showing glimpses of what he's capable of.

If for Faried however, I wouldn't mind Ross taking a back seat or even being sent the other way in a deal and MU wouldn't either most likely.


No way am I giving Ross for Kenneth Faried...

TorontoHuskies
03-12-2014, 06:38 PM
I am sure that Ujiri is hoping to acquire Faried this summer, I could tell that from his comments in interviews last week. But hoops hype is wrong, Faried is not a free agent. Ujiri is going to try and trade for Faried. I think his #1 FA target is Lowry and than after that Deng.

Don't know why they're saying that, Maybe they meant the #1 guy they are going to go after.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 06:39 PM
why faried ? urgfhfhffhfhfhfhfhf. this guy and his love afair with pg's and pf's. I dont get it.

Faried aint even all that. he having a crap year so far.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 06:39 PM
2pat > faried.

yeah I said it.

gwrighter
03-12-2014, 06:39 PM
Link?

TorontoHuskies
03-12-2014, 06:42 PM
Link?

Hoops hype twitter

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 06:43 PM
No way am I giving Ross for Kenneth Faried...

I dont much like MU and dont think he is all that he has been hyped up to be. but if he did that move i would stop watching and supporting this team after 19-20 years of being a die hard.

bartron_44
03-12-2014, 06:51 PM
I agree with Bob, the #1 FA Ujiri should be worried about this summer is Lowry. Without him there is no way we are sitting on top of our division right now. I would also argue that he needs to get PP and Vasquez resigned. If we are talking about outside of anyone on our current roster though... I would say he should go after the Polish Hammer (Marcin Gortat). He would make a GREAT addition to our front court imo.

pulzar
03-12-2014, 06:55 PM
Lebron James.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 06:56 PM
I agree with Bob, the #1 FA Ujiri should be worried about this summer is Lowry. Without him there is no way we are sitting on top of our division right now. I would also argue that he needs to get PP and Vasquez resigned. If we are talking about outside of anyone on our current roster though... I would say he should go after the Polish Hammer (Marcin Gortat). He would make a GREAT addition to our front court imo.

Absolutley agree. why not sign our own pg and then target a true C... you know like something we need. rather than adding our 5th pf.

koreancabbage
03-12-2014, 07:07 PM
I would rather go with Ross than Deng. A regressive long term move IMO and not our biggest weakness.


No way am I giving Ross for Kenneth Faried...

agreed

TorontoHuskies
03-12-2014, 07:15 PM
I dont much like MU and dont think he is all that he has been hyped up to be. but if he did that move i would stop watching and supporting this team after 19-20 years of being a die hard.

Have to admit I am not happy with how he handled this year...A struggling franchise should never try to succeed (unless they have someone else's pick) when your savior is sitting in the draft. I honestly believe Ujiri tried to tank but like Colangelo failed miserably at it because he got hungry players in return who were looking for some money in their next contract.

jsumadchat
03-12-2014, 07:23 PM
Omer Asik. the Rockets want to get rid of him and he would be GREAT on this team. can grab rebounds, score in the paint, and plays GREAT D at his position. potentially overpaid though.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 07:34 PM
Omer Asik. the Rockets want to get rid of him and he would be GREAT on this team. can grab rebounds, score in the paint, and plays GREAT D at his position. potentially overpaid though.

problem with that is that asik wants to be a starter. thats why he isnt happy in houston and that would def get in the way of jonas' development imo.

but that aside, I agree he would be a great fit skill set wise.

Bob_at_york
03-12-2014, 07:34 PM
Omer Asik. the Rockets want to get rid of him and he would be GREAT on this team. can grab rebounds, score in the paint, and plays GREAT D at his position. potentially overpaid though.
But what are you giving up for him?

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 07:38 PM
Have to admit I am not happy with how he handled this year...A struggling franchise should never try to succeed (unless they have someone else's pick) when your savior is sitting in the draft. I honestly believe Ujiri tried to tank but like Colangelo failed miserably at it because he got hungry players in return who were looking for some money in their next contract.

+1 def agree.. im annoyed because if he didnt want to rebuild then he should have made one more trade to clear up the log jam and adress other needs that the team has. just seems like he isnt doing anything to help the teams playoff run. at the same time he let the opportunity to rebuild this year slide.

a wasted season imo. the only ones who benifit are owners who will make lots of money in ticket sales for the false hope that this team is actually going somewhere in the post season. good old fashion toronto ownership. sell seats and **** everything else.

deaner
03-12-2014, 07:38 PM
Omer Asik. the Rockets want to get rid of him and he would be GREAT on this team. can grab rebounds, score in the paint, and plays GREAT D at his position. potentially overpaid though.

I was told that Asik was the worst trade possible by a poster here. I agree with you.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 07:44 PM
But what are you giving up for him?

if asik wasnt so hell bent on starting. I wouldnt have minded a deal like this.

asik 14.9 million

for

amir 7 million
fields 8.5 million

lowry-gvz
derozan-salmons
ross-novak
pp-th
jonas-asik

all players invovled are expiring contracts so neither team would take a long term hit.

Jamiecballer
03-12-2014, 08:35 PM
the bar is low if faried is our number one target. he wouldn't even be the best PF on this team. by a mile.

Sanyo
03-12-2014, 08:35 PM
+1 def agree.. im annoyed because if he didnt want to rebuild then he should have made one more trade to clear up the log jam and adress other needs that the team has. just seems like he isnt doing anything to help the teams playoff run. at the same time he let the opportunity to rebuild this year slide.

a wasted season imo. the only ones who benifit are owners who will make lots of money in ticket sales for the false hope that this team is actually going somewhere in the post season. good old fashion toronto ownership. sell seats and **** everything else.

Argh I hate when I read this kind of ****. The team is arguably playing their best ball since the VC days and people talk of still tanking.

Yes Lowry has a contract due -- but the last time I checked Demar, Amir, Jonas and Ross don't and they are young and hungry. No one expected Demar to step up the way he has. No one expected Ross to be a starter and play the way he has. Jonas has had ups and downs but he's getting chances (though I wish he got a little more playing time but that will come with experience).

I think I want the Raps to show the league they can contend and try to get players. They got Tim Leiweke who is hungry to win and will likely pull out the wallet as much as he can.

I'd rather the Raps play hard and let some other team develop Parker and Wiggins and then in 4-5 years once they have developed, you can go after them in free agency.

Look at Lebron and Bosh -- they went to Miami to win and they knew they'd win -- Lebron didnt stay in Cleveland and Bosh didn't stay in Toronto -- they went somewhere else.

Re-building is fine but there are risks -- I'd rather win then re-build. If the Raps fail, then re-build then -- after all its just a game man its not life and death -- sometimes I wish people just enjoy the game and stop losing sleep trying to build a dynasty.

Sanyo
03-12-2014, 08:38 PM
I dont mind Asik if he didn't mind being 2nd fiddle. But seems like he wants to be starter to make more money -- I dont want those kind of guys on my team. If he isn't happy playing in Houston, then I dont see him happy in toronto.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 08:38 PM
the bar is low if faried is our number one target. he wouldn't even be the best PF on this team. by a mile.

+1

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 08:39 PM
I dont mind Asik if he didn't mind being 2nd fiddle. But seems like he wants to be starter to make more money -- I dont want those kind of guys on my team. If he isn't happy playing in Houston, then I dont see him happy in toronto.

he already got his money when he went from the bulls to the rockets he got a big pay day. on both teams though he has always wanted to start. I think he believes he is a starter in this league and would like that opportunity.

North Yorker
03-12-2014, 08:40 PM
My guess?

MKG. Young player that fits the hardworking, unselfish mold. Room to develop.

Maybe something like Salmons+ our 2014 1st for him.

Drafts Craft and some foreign guy that will stay overseas in the 2nd. Re-sign Lowry. Sign Jason Smith as back-up C for cheap. Tries to bring back GV and Patt as well.

Too lazy to check to see if we have cap room but I could see MLSE wanting to bring back Vince on a 1-2 yr deal at ~$3M per (may have to decline Hans' option, depends on how much Lowry costs).

15 man roster:

Lowry/Vasquez/Craft
DeRozan/Carter
Ross/MKG/Fields
Amir/Patt/Hans/Novak
Valanciunas/Smith/Hayes

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 08:42 PM
Argh I hate when I read this kind of ****. The team is arguably playing their best ball since the VC days and people talk of still tanking.

Yes Lowry has a contract due -- but the last time I checked Demar, Amir, Jonas and Ross don't and they are young and hungry. No one expected Demar to step up the way he has. No one expected Ross to be a starter and play the way he has. Jonas has had ups and downs but he's getting chances (though I wish he got a little more playing time but that will come with experience).

I think I want the Raps to show the league they can contend and try to get players. They got Tim Leiweke who is hungry to win and will likely pull out the wallet as much as he can.

I'd rather the Raps play hard and let some other team develop Parker and Wiggins and then in 4-5 years once they have developed, you can go after them in free agency.

Look at Lebron and Bosh -- they went to Miami to win and they knew they'd win -- Lebron didnt stay in Cleveland and Bosh didn't stay in Toronto -- they went somewhere else.

Re-building is fine but there are risks -- I'd rather win then re-build. If the Raps fail, then re-build then -- after all its just a game man its not life and death -- sometimes I wish people just enjoy the game and stop losing sleep trying to build a dynasty.

sanyo you have been here a while, and should know by now that im not a supporter of the tank.

but the fact remains that the direction of this team isn't any more clear then it was at the start of the season. MU hasn't shown that he is leaning towards rebuilding or competing. To me that is frustraiting.

I am all for either. . if your going to rebuild then do it thoroughly and could or should have started this season if thats ultimately going to be the decision anyways.

if were going to compete with this core, then great... but why didn't he clear up some log jams and address some of the holes in the rotation ? 5 pgs and 4 pf's is all I have to say. that is by no means helping this core get as far as they can in the post season.

I can get on board with either direction so long as there is one. What I cant stand is blowing both. he isn't giving this core the best chance to succeed heading in to the play offs and he obviously didn't start a rebuild either.

Sanyo
03-12-2014, 08:44 PM
he already got his money when he went from the bulls to the rockets he got a big pay day. on both teams though he has always wanted to start. I think he believes he is a starter in this league and would like that opportunity.

He has his big money year next year and is a free agent -- he definitely wants one more big payday before he gets too old. I dont doubt he thinks he can be a starter (and yes he could be on many teams) but if your not happy sharing minutes on a contender, then your head is more on money and I dont want those guys.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 08:49 PM
He has his big money year next year and is a free agent -- he definitely wants one more big payday before he gets too old. I dont doubt he thinks he can be a starter (and yes he could be on many teams) but if your not happy sharing minutes on a contender, then your head is more on money and I dont want those guys.

I wont debate that he wants a pay day. All players usually do. But Im just pointing out his strong desire to be a starter.

other wise I think his skillset is perfect and what is missing on this team.

Sanyo
03-12-2014, 08:49 PM
sanyo you have been here a while, and should know by now that im not a supporter of the tank.

but the fact remains that the direction of this team isn't any more clear than it was at the beginning of the season. MU hasn't shown that he is leaning towards rebuilding or competing. To me that is frustraiting.

I am all for either. So long as he does what it takes for either direction to succeed. if your going to rebuild then do it thoroughly and could start now if that is going to be the decision anyways.

if were going to compete with this core, then great... but why didn't he clear up some log jams and address some of the hole in the rotation ?

I can get on board with either direction so long as there is one. What I cant stand is blowing both.

Im with you on the log jams but it also depends on if players are available and who they want from us.

I dont have any doubt MU has tried to trade some guys but it likely means taking back some bad contracts (like he did with Sac and likely just worked out for the Raps).

I mean I have no doubts he would like a guy like Fields gone who's clogging payroll but who would take him? Sometimes we can talk all we want online but we have no idea what the GM's might be trying to do -- trading is very hard to do, much harder than we think. But I have no doubts if the Raps end the season well they could attract a decent free agent or try to make a trade. Hayes and Fields will have only a year left on their deals so maybe if a team is looking to unload, they may take those deals back -- but we will have to see...

Sanyo
03-12-2014, 08:52 PM
I wont debate that he wants a pay day. All players usually do. But Im just pointing out his strong desire to be a starter.

other wise I think his skillset is perfect and what is missing on this team.

Well if the Raps trade for him, he'll have to suck it up and play anyways. I dont see the Raps re-signing Salmons so they'll have room. But the issue becomes who they give up. I dont want the Raps to trade any of the starters. Only player I can think of is Amir Johnson if the Raps can re-sign P Pat.

mjt20mik
03-12-2014, 08:59 PM
It should be Kyle and Luol.

Faried is basically another variation of an Amir Johnson.

With going after Deng, we have a really good closing unit.

Lowry
DeRozan
Ross
Deng
Amir

ink
03-12-2014, 09:00 PM
Omer Asik. the Rockets want to get rid of him and he would be GREAT on this team. can grab rebounds, score in the paint, and plays GREAT D at his position. potentially overpaid though.

I was told that Asik was the worst trade possible by a poster here. I agree with you.

The assumption being that JV is the starter of the future, yes that would be a bad move. You can explain to Asik why he went from one bench role in Houston to another in Toronto.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 09:12 PM
It should be Kyle and Luol.

Faried is basically another variation of an Amir Johnson.

With going after Deng, we have a really good closing unit.

Lowry
DeRozan
Ross
Deng
Amir

wouldn't mind deng either.. but after signing lowry, would there be enough cap room to sign deng ? im not sure to be honest.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 09:13 PM
Im with you on the log jams but it also depends on if players are available and who they want from us.

I dont have any doubt MU has tried to trade some guys but it likely means taking back some bad contracts (like he did with Sac and likely just worked out for the Raps).

I mean I have no doubts he would like a guy like Fields gone who's clogging payroll but who would take him? Sometimes we can talk all we want online but we have no idea what the GM's might be trying to do -- trading is very hard to do, much harder than we think. But I have no doubts if the Raps end the season well they could attract a decent free agent or try to make a trade. Hayes and Fields will have only a year left on their deals so maybe if a team is looking to unload, they may take those deals back -- but we will have to see...

fair enough. good post.

North Yorker
03-12-2014, 09:14 PM
wouldn't mind deng either.. but after signing lowry, would there be enough cap room to sign deng ? im not sure to be honest.

If we wanted to keep GV and Patt around we would need to shed at least 2 of Fields/Novaks/Hayes deals, along with buying out Salmons.

jsumadchat
03-12-2014, 09:31 PM
The assumption being that JV is the starter of the future, yes that would be a bad move. You can explain to Asik why he went from one bench role in Houston to another in Toronto.

not unless you trade amir for him. amir will probably get paid handsomely after this current deal.. i think asik can give the raps a big body down low that can take physicality. i mean, amir is tough as ****, but dude still gets bodied against strong guys.

again, im not saying i dont like amir, i just think asik here instead of him isnt exactly a downgrade at all.

smith&wesson
03-12-2014, 09:33 PM
not unless you trade amir for him. amir will probably get paid handsomely after this current deal.. i think asik can give the raps a big body down low that can take physicality. i mean, amir is tough as ****, but dude still gets bodied against strong guys.

again, im not saying i dont like amir, i just think asik here instead of him isnt exactly a downgrade at all.

amir makes less than half the salary asik makes next year. we would have to add other pieces. But again, Asik wants to be a starter. other wise he would just stay in Houston.

jsumadchat
03-12-2014, 09:45 PM
amir makes less than half the salary asik makes next year. we would have to add other pieces. But again, Asik wants to be a starter. other wise he would just stay in Houston.

fields? maybe they want more D behind parsons. they have jordan hamilton and francisco garcia, im sure they could use landry there.

aman_13
03-12-2014, 10:02 PM
Lowry and Patterson should be top priorities this off-season.

ghettosean
03-12-2014, 10:20 PM
I would rather go with Ross than Deng. A regressive long term move IMO and not our biggest weakness.


No way am I giving Ross for Kenneth Faried...

agreed

+1

boilerguy2412
03-12-2014, 10:46 PM
Top priority should be to try and get James to come here.

MoneyBall20
03-12-2014, 11:38 PM
Lance Stephenson & Kenneth Faried,I go after.
Lebron James would be a Wet Dream,would never happen,would be nice though.

Bob_at_york
03-13-2014, 07:23 AM
sanyo you have been here a while, and should know by now that im not a supporter of the tank.

but the fact remains that the direction of this team isn't any more clear then it was at the start of the season. MU hasn't shown that he is leaning towards rebuilding or competing. To me that is frustraiting.

I am all for either. . if your going to rebuild then do it thoroughly and could or should have started this season if thats ultimately going to be the decision anyways.

if were going to compete with this core, then great... but why didn't he clear up some log jams and address some of the holes in the rotation ? 5 pgs and 4 pf's is all I have to say. that is by no means helping this core get as far as they can in the post season.

I can get on board with either direction so long as there is one. What I cant stand is blowing both. he isn't giving this core the best chance to succeed heading in to the play offs and he obviously didn't start a rebuild either.
He knows his team can't beat miami or Indiana. He wasn't going to screw with the team's flexibility or chemistry for no reason.

jon32
03-13-2014, 09:07 AM
Meh....Id welcome the addition of Faried.....but not for Ross. Id much rather just have Amir and Patterson along with keeping Ross.

Im guessing they mean this is MU's #1 trade target.......obviously the first move he'll want to make is to resign Lowry.

As for Luol Deng.....no thanks, im not nearly as high on getting him as many of you are. Id rather go with the pipedream and try for LeBron, which is beyond unrealistic, but otherwise keep Ross for a fraction of the price of Deng and let him take another step forward next year. He's been solid since the trade.

B2B
03-13-2014, 09:15 AM
Meh....Id welcome the addition of Faried.....but not for Ross. Id much rather just have Amir and Patterson along with keeping Ross.

Im guessing they mean this is MU's #1 trade target.......obviously the first move he'll want to make is to resign Lowry.

As for Luol Deng.....no thanks, im not nearly as high on getting him as many of you are. Id rather go with the pipedream and try for LeBron, which is beyond unrealistic, but otherwise keep Ross for a fraction of the price of Deng and let him take another step forward next year. He's been solid since the trade.

+ Hansborough. Raptors are 3 deep at PF in committed contracts. Makes zero Sense when Amir is better than Faried combined with quality depth.

There are nights when Hansborough gets limited minutes & that is with a current hole at back centre.

Unless there is a trade involving one of our PF's this offseason (Amir), Faried makes zero sense when the team has other needs & could put resources in better places.

B2B
03-13-2014, 09:17 AM
S&W would love to net MKG.

Sly Guy
03-13-2014, 09:46 AM
faried would be nice, but not at the expense of ross. We need a backup vet C, resign lowry, and a serviceable 3 before another pf anyway.

B2B
03-13-2014, 09:48 AM
If Asik was a potential option, it opens opportunity to offer Jonas/pick/s at draft or in trade for a SF.

Asik
Amir
Draft trade - (Jonas + Raptors 2014 1st + Raptors 2016 1st + Knicks 2016 1st) for Wiggins
Derozan/Ross
Lowry

Note, overpayment for preference. It helps that Wiggins has not lived up to the preseason hype or Embiid/Parker could go #1. Maybe he's targeting Exum.

If Raptors lose Lowry & face a tank scenario either by force or choice. They could potentially do the same type trade with "allstar" Derozan. Keep Val, start Ross at SG move Derozan for a draft pick & tank with the following

Jonas 22
Amir trade?
?
Ross 23
?

draft trade (Derozan + pick/s?) PG/SF/PF

There are many possibilities available to Masai, either direction. Playoff push or tank/development. Masai can change direction at any point dictated by opportunity/availability/choice to pin down a priority at this point.

B2B
03-13-2014, 09:51 AM
faried would be nice, but not at the expense of ross. We need a backup vet C, resign lowry, and a serviceable 3 before another pf anyway.

I think they will take a defensive big with one of the 3, 2014 picks. The rookie contract/s off the bench would benefit resigning Lowry. A decent vet big might be too costly.

B2B
03-13-2014, 10:19 AM
faried would be nice, but not at the expense of ross. We need a backup vet C, resign lowry, and a serviceable 3 before another pf anyway.

Farieds asking price at the deadline was a reported 2014 first + savings from a contender. The assumption there with the contender reference, is that the pick would not be lotto.

Ross > Faried.

The rumors that were floating had GS with interested in Amir/Faried but they have no pick.

My assumption based in rumors & the fact we deep at PF, is Masai's interest in Faried could trail to Barnes.

pulzar
03-13-2014, 10:45 AM
He knows his team can't beat miami or Indiana. He wasn't going to screw with the team's flexibility or chemistry for no reason.

My thoughts exactly. We are not one backup C away from winning it all... Is it worth giving something up in order to be slightly more competitive as we lose in the playoffs?

Patience... We have a young team that is getting better. Let them grow. A couple of years from now, maybe we'll be making moves to be a contender.

djsunyc
03-13-2014, 10:49 AM
we have salmons and handsbro (only 1 mil guaranteed next season) deals to be moved before july 1st. so i'm expecting a move on draft night.

gwrighter
03-13-2014, 10:50 AM
S&W would love to net MKG.

The guy who let LBJ & Melo score 60+ pts on him in the same season? No thanks. His team has gotten better & he's gotten worse. That doesn't bode well for him as a player.

gwrighter
03-13-2014, 10:54 AM
My concern with Faried is his defence. He isn't really good at guarding 1 on 1 or in help situations whereas Amir is pretty capable in those regards despite being physically weak.

Sly Guy
03-13-2014, 11:29 AM
Farieds asking price at the deadline was a reported 2014 first + savings from a contender. The assumption there with the contender reference, is that the pick would not be lotto.

Ross > Faried.

The rumors that were floating had GS with interested in Amir/Faried but they have no pick.

My assumption based in rumors & the fact we deep at PF, is Masai's interest in Faried could trail to Barnes.

I hear you on this, but I think jonas could benefit from a vet big to help him develop in practice, watch him when he's not on the floor etc. A younger big man would need to develop as well, whereas a vet big, could cover some minutes if val gets in foul trouble, or the other team is unusually long or whatever.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-13-2014, 11:31 AM
I like Faried. He's not an all star but he's very efficient and can land a double double every game if given the minutes. Basically like 15 and 10 in 32 mins.

ink
03-13-2014, 12:05 PM
My thoughts exactly. We are not one backup C away from winning it all... Is it worth giving something up in order to be slightly more competitive as we lose in the playoffs?

Patience... We have a young team that is getting better. Let them grow. A couple of years from now, maybe we'll be making moves to be a contender.

Yes, if we're on that path let's not confuse our priorities and try for now unecessarily. I'd rather commit to the young guys and watch them develop.

TorontoHuskies
03-13-2014, 12:32 PM
Can't believe Ross is already 23.

I Rock Shaqs
03-13-2014, 12:56 PM
He knows his team can't beat miami or Indiana. He wasn't going to screw with the team's flexibility or chemistry for no reason.

I don't believe that's the sig we betted on?

lajoie
03-13-2014, 12:59 PM
If Asik was a potential option, it opens opportunity to offer Jonas/pick/s at draft or in trade for a SF.

Asik
Amir
Draft trade - (Jonas + Raptors 2014 1st + Raptors 2016 1st + Knicks 2016 1st) for Wiggins
Derozan/Ross
Lowry

Note, overpayment for preference. It helps that Wiggins has not lived up to the preseason hype or Embiid/Parker could go #1. Maybe he's targeting Exum.

If Raptors lose Lowry & face a tank scenario either by force or choice. They could potentially do the same type trade with "allstar" Derozan. Keep Val, start Ross at SG move Derozan for a draft pick & tank with the following

Jonas 22
Amir trade?
?
Ross 23
?

draft trade (Derozan + pick/s?) PG/SF/PF

There are many possibilities available to Masai, either direction. Playoff push or tank/development. Masai can change direction at any point dictated by opportunity/availability/choice to pin down a priority at this point.

Can anyone point out another example of a team trading away a top 5 pick for what is essentially a bunch of future 1st round picks?

It doesn't happen because this isn't the NFL where you have to fill out a 53 man roster and where quantity actually matters. Also trading away a top 5 pick (which is a pick that in most drafts can change the fate of a franchise based on what you do with it) for a bunch of question marks in the future makes really no sense from any sort of analytical perspective.

B2B
03-13-2014, 01:33 PM
The guy who let LBJ & Melo score 60+ pts on him in the same season? No thanks. His team has gotten better & he's gotten worse. That doesn't bode well for him as a player.

MKG played all of 18mins in the game Melo scored 60 with him coming off injury. Kemba was also out. Cats went with Sessions/Pargo/Henderson to compensate for the offensive loss, all -30+. So unless he was guarding him from the bench, can't pin that game on him.

In the 2nd agaisnt Heat. He played 25mins to James 42.

When he got injured, Cats defense fell outside the top 10.

Reason for his limited mins is the Cats want to spread the court for Jefferson & he can't do that.

gwrighter
03-13-2014, 01:48 PM
MKG played all of 18mins in the game Melo scored 60 with him coming off injury. Kemba was also out. Cats went with Sessions/Pargo/Henderson to compensate for the offensive loss, all -30+. So unless he was guarding him from the bench, can't pin that game on him.

In the 2nd agaisnt Heat. He played 25mins to James 42.

When he got injured, Cats defense fell outside the top 10.

Reason for his limited mins is the Cats want to spread the court for Jefferson & he can't do that.

With that not withstanding those guys still torched him & he's got worse while his team gets better. Haven't seen much in terms of skill development out of his game from rookie to sophomore.

B2B
03-13-2014, 01:51 PM
Can anyone point out another example of a team trading away a top 5 pick for what is essentially a bunch of future 1st round picks?

It doesn't happen because this isn't the NFL where you have to fill out a 53 man roster and where quantity actually matters. Also trading away a top 5 pick (which is a pick that in most drafts can change the fate of a franchise based on what you do with it) for a bunch of question marks in the future makes really no sense from any sort of analytical perspective.

Depends, are you are specifying the #1 pick or anything top 5 because teams trade down for multiple assets all the time outside the #1. Off the top of my head Bulls traded #2 Aldridge for #5 Thomas +

Jonas himself was a top 5 pick, he's NBA proven & plays a position of value. Here I've included him with 3 picks, 2 unprotected in 2016. A package I would personally consider top 5 if I were an apposing team with needs at Centre & Embiid was off the board.

B2B
03-13-2014, 01:56 PM
With that not withstanding those guys still torched him & he's got worse while his team gets better. Haven't seen much in terms of skill development out of his game from rookie to sophomore.

Your holding him accountable for 18mins of play coming off injury when none else could have stopped Melo in the remaining 34mins of the same game.

Lebron gets the best of many on a nightly basis, on that night he could not miss from 3. When he's shooting that well on the perimeter, none can guard him. Once again MKG only played 25 mins

Your making me want to check the game log to find out how many times these players scored, when he was on court. MKG is the reason Cats are top 10 defensively.

Only thing holding him back offensively is his shot

lajoie
03-13-2014, 02:43 PM
Depends, are you are specifying the #1 pick or anything top 5 because teams trade down for multiple assets all the time outside the #1. Off the top of my head Bulls traded #2 Aldridge for #5 Thomas +

Jonas himself was a top 5 pick, he's NBA proven & plays a position of value. Here I've included him with 3 picks, 2 unprotected in 2016. A package I would personally consider top 5 if I were an apposing team with needs at Centre & Embiid was off the board.

No, I'm talking about making a quality(ie top 5 pick) for quantity(ie a bunch of middle-late first rounders) trade. It doesn't happen because this is the one sport where it's been shown time and time again where one or two players can literally determine the fate of a franchise. And usually those players are picked in the top 5.

B2B
03-13-2014, 02:59 PM
No, I'm talking about making a quality(ie top 5 pick) for quantity(ie a bunch of middle-late first rounders) trade. It doesn't happen because this is the one sport where it's been shown time and time again where one or two players can literally determine the fate of a franchise. And usually those players are picked in the top 5.

3 first rounders, 2 unprotected/unknown value in 2016 + a former top 5 pick, proven young player/centre, Jonas.

You must have a low opinion of Jonas and his value?.

Randy Foye, netted Wolves Rubio.

killersweet
03-13-2014, 03:08 PM
With that not withstanding those guys still torched him & he's got worse while his team gets better. Haven't seen much in terms of skill development out of his game from rookie to sophomore.

Even the better defenders in the league have allowed guys like Lebron and KD to go off on them. Some nights are tough for any defender. MKG is solid as they come. DD took his time developing his game. His improvement was very marginal in the early years. A guy like Bruce Bowen took his time becoming a premier backcourt defensive player in the league. I think MKG will be a pretty good defensive player in this league for years to come. I think he would be a great addition for this team.

lajoie
03-13-2014, 03:14 PM
3 first rounders, 2 unprotected/unknown value in 2016 + a former top 5 pick, proven young player/centre, Jonas.

You must have a low opinion of Jonas and his value?.

Randy Foye, netted Wolves Rubio.

Lets sum it up here:
2014 pick Raptors= not going to be in top 10
2016 pick Raptors= all likelihood, not going to be in the top 10 especially if they add Wiggins and Asik to a Derozan, Ross, Lowry core
2016 Knicks pick = the one pick that might be in the lottery. But the Raptors also need the Nuggets to be similarly as bad for this pick to have value since they have the right to swap picks.
Jonas = nice player who I can be good. I certainly don't see the franchise player that people see.

A lot of question marks you're getting in return when trading a top 5 pick in what is consensus-wide one of the deepest drafts in last several years.

B2B
03-13-2014, 03:21 PM
Even the better defenders in the league have allowed guys like Lebron and KD to go off on them. Some nights are tough for any defender. MKG is solid as they come. DD took his time developing his game. His improvement was very marginal in the early years. A guy like Bruce Bowen took his time becoming a premier backcourt defensive player in the league. I think MKG will be a pretty good defensive player in this league for years to come. I think he would be a great addition for this team.

MKG came into the league raw offensively with poor shooting mechanics, they completely broke down his stroke to build it back up, this his 2nd year in the league at 20 turning 21.

Cats have limited his minutes because they need/want a SF to stretch the floor for Jefferson.

He's averaging 8/5 in 25mins on 48% FG + defense.

Ross 23, in comparison 10/3 in 26mins on 43% FG, 412 3pt%

MKG is doing that with none respecting his range.

B2B
03-13-2014, 03:25 PM
Lets sum it up here:
2014 pick Raptors= not going to be in top 10
2016 pick Raptors= all likelihood, not going to be in the top 10 especially if they add Wiggins and Asik to a Derozan, Ross, Lowry core
2016 Knicks pick = the one pick that might be in the lottery. But the Raptors also need the Nuggets to be similarly as bad for this pick to have value since they have the right to swap picks.
Jonas = nice player who I can be good. I certainly don't see the franchise player that people see.

A lot of question marks you're getting in return when trading a top 5 pick in what is consensus-wide one of the deepest drafts in last several years.

Your view of Jonas value & his position, is what probably separates our perspectives.

03 Pistons ended up with a Darko at #2. Risk/reward is weighted both sides but this remains a hypothetical without being able to build on a teams draft position & situation.

I could see the Cav trading their pick for Jonas/+ if they were top 5.

Of course my assumption is Embiid went #1 & is off the table.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 03:34 PM
He knows his team can't beat miami or Indiana. He wasn't going to screw with the team's flexibility or chemistry for no reason.

he must know something we dont then, because the pacers arent scaring anyone. The way the raptors are playing and the way the pacers are playing, I would say its not probable but still possible that toronto could win. specially if you give them the best chance to suceed by rounding out the roster and filling in the gaps where we have holes in the rotation.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 03:38 PM
Yes, if we're on that path let's not confuse our priorities and try for now unecessarily. I'd rather commit to the young guys and watch them develop.


jonas and ross being starters in their sophmore year is an indication of management and the coaching staff commiting to their development. do starters not rerquire back ups ? regardless of their age ?

adressing a simple need for a role player would be a minor move. not a long term move that effects flexibility or one that hinders the development of young players.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 03:39 PM
I dont understand the need for faried in any way shape or form. does amir not give us much of what faried provides ?

does MU just target players he has a past connection to or something ? first GVZ now faried.. atleast gvz made sense since we needed a proper back up for lowry. but faried make no sense at all to me.

Raps Insider 12
03-13-2014, 04:06 PM
I would go and get Pau Gasol as long as he can be had for cheap maybe the Vet minimum?

I don't see the need for Faried especially at the expense of Ross. The priority is to sign back Lowry(if he and his agent are both convinced that the Raps can be part of his long term future). Second is to sign 2Pat.

Val/Pau
Amir/Pat/Hans

That's a decent 5 bigman rotation

If Lowry and 2Pat opt to go somewhere else then that might change everything.

Another big man from the draft maybe the first priority if Masai gets no assurance from Pat.

pebloemer
03-13-2014, 04:07 PM
I dont understand the need for faried in any way shape or form. does amir not give us much of what faried provides ?

does MU just target players he has a past connection to or something ? first GVZ now faried.. atleast gvz made sense since we needed a proper back up for lowry. but faried make no sense at all to me.

I'd love Faried over Hansborough and he would be great if we lost Patterson in the off-season, but I prefer sticking with the Amir/Val/Patterson rotation next year if possible. Faried does a lot that I like around the basket, but Amir gives me more defensively and in running screens, while Patterson has more versatility on offense while also being capable defensively.

Bob_at_york
03-13-2014, 04:12 PM
he must know something we dont then, because the pacers arent scaring anyone. The way the raptors are playing and the way the pacers are playing, I would say its not probable but still possible that toronto could win. specially if you give them the best chance to suceed by rounding out the roster and filling in the gaps where we have holes in the rotation.
You don't think the pacers were scary when they were something like 15-6 going into the allstar break/trade deadline? The Pacers could actually be a good example of a team that screwed with its chemistry and is paying for it right now but they could definitely be scary in the playoffs.


I dont understand the need for faried in any way shape or form. does amir not give us much of what faried provides ?

does MU just target players he has a past connection to or something ? first GVZ now faried.. atleast gvz made sense since we needed a proper back up for lowry. but faried make no sense at all to me.
He believes in Faried. I don't see it either. But I guess MU still sees potiential in Faried.

lajoie
03-13-2014, 04:19 PM
I would go and get Pau Gasol as long as he can be had for cheap maybe the Vet minimum?

I don't see the need for Faried especially at the expense of Ross. The priority is to sign back Lowry(if he and his agent are both convinced that the Raps can be part of his long term future). Second is to sign 2Pat.

Val/Pau
Amir/Pat/Hans

That's a decent 5 bigman rotation

If Lowry and 2Pat opt to go somewhere else then that might change everything.

Another big man from the draft maybe the first priority if Masai gets no assurance from Pat.

Last time I checked, Pau was averaging close to a double double. You generally don't get that type of production for just the vet minimum.

killersweet
03-13-2014, 04:24 PM
he must know something we dont then, because the pacers arent scaring anyone. The way the raptors are playing and the way the pacers are playing, I would say its not probable but still possible that toronto could win. specially if you give them the best chance to suceed by rounding out the roster and filling in the gaps where we have holes in the rotation.

I wouldn't put much stock in to how pacers are finishing the season. They have added few pieces and they r still tinkering. They would be a scary playoff team. They have the playoff experience as well. They are a well coached team. They would bring it during the playoffs. Same goes for Miami.

Raps Insider 12
03-13-2014, 04:29 PM
Last time I checked, Pau was averaging close to a double double. You generally don't get that type of production for just the vet minimum.

I bolded the part that only if he can be had for cheap. So anything more than that, Masai may need to turn his attention somewhere else.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 04:29 PM
You don't think the pacers were scary when they were something like 15-6 going into the allstar break/trade deadline? The Pacers could actually be a good example of a team that screwed with its chemistry and is paying for it right now but they could definitely be scary in the playoffs.
He believes in Faried. I don't see it either. But I guess MU still sees potiential in Faried.

Im talking about the way the pacers have been playing of late and paul georges struggles. They dont look un beatable to me. like i said, not probable that we beat them.. but def possible.

agree about faried. We dont need him. If MU targets him, its pretty clear he is targeting players he has a connection too.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 04:31 PM
I'd love Faried over Hansborough and he would be great if we lost Patterson in the off-season, but I prefer sticking with the Amir/Val/Patterson rotation next year if possible. Faried does a lot that I like around the basket, but Amir gives me more defensively and in running screens, while Patterson has more versatility on offense while also being capable defensively.

I agree I would prefer to stick with our big man rotation as well.

Just seems so odd to me that he would target someone like faried when we have other needs. seems to me like i stated above that MU targets players he has a connection to. is faried "an MU guy" is that why he is being targeted?? I cant think of any other reason. We have a log jam of pf's, wheres the need ?

Ive watched faried this season, he is nothing special. not an upgrade over amir or pp.. so whats the point in going after him ? guranteed he will want more money when it comes time to re sign him too. why ? because he had a good season last year ? what about this year ?

Raps Insider 12
03-13-2014, 04:34 PM
Hoopshype salaries is showing 41 mil total team salary for 14-15 season that includes the team option allotted for Amir/Salmons and the QO for Patterson if he accepts it.

* I also was surprised that Camby's salary of 4 million was still added to the total.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 04:35 PM
I bolded the part that only if he can be had for cheap. So anything more than that, Masai may need to turn his attention somewhere else.

gasol aint taking no vets min. thats ludacris. if he wuold, then 30 teams should be in line for his services. he is having like an all star season. inflated stats on a bad team.. but never the less.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 04:36 PM
Hoopshype salaries is showing 41 mil total team salary for 14-15 season that includes the team option allotted for Amir/Salmons and the QO for Patterson if he accepts it.

* I also was surprised that Camby's salary of 4 million was still added to the total.

which really sucks, but if it meant getting rid of bargnani then its well worth it.

I wish camby would have just stayed. We could have really used him as a back up in a small role, and he def could have taught jonas a thing or two on D.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 04:39 PM
Bob@york... STOP MAKING SIG BETS lmao :laugh2:

I love that you have soo much integrity bob, keeping your word on a bet. But you should really just change that sig asap lol.

pulzar
03-13-2014, 05:55 PM
adressing a simple need for a role player would be a minor move. not a long term move that effects flexibility or one that hinders the development of young players.

Ok, so what's your theory on why he didn't get a backup C? I think other posters have offered (1) that we don't need one and Hayes + PFs will do, or (2) that he tried there weren't any available that are better than Hayes, or (3) what was available would've required trading away some future assets. You don't think any of those 3 are valid.

What's left? MU is completely incapable? Is that the point you're trying to make?

pulzar
03-13-2014, 05:57 PM
I love that you have soo much integrity bob, keeping your word on a bet. But you should really just change that sig asap lol.

Can you remind me what the bet was about? :)

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 07:03 PM
Ok, so what's your theory on why he didn't get a backup C? I think other posters have offered (1) that we don't need one and Hayes + PFs will do, or (2) that he tried there weren't any available that are better than Hayes, or (3) what was available would've required trading away some future assets. You don't think any of those 3 are valid.

What's left? MU is completely incapable? Is that the point you're trying to make?

I dont have a theory as to why, Im questioning why. Also I never stated that any of the reasons above were not valid. They may very well be.

But I would have liked to see a minor move to adress the concern, maybe he did try and it didnt work out. Whatever the reason may be, I just see a weakness aposing teams will def key in on in a 7 game series and it will probably be the reason why the team gets eliminated, possibly even in the first round.

can I not voice my concerns with that? I can care less about why posters think MU fell short in doing so, the point is he did. valid reason or not, its his job .. so I question it. to me its a glaring weakness... not a small one going in to the post season.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 07:09 PM
I wouldn't put much stock in to how pacers are finishing the season. They have added few pieces and they r still tinkering. They would be a scary playoff team. They have the playoff experience as well. They are a well coached team. They would bring it during the playoffs. Same goes for Miami.


They arenít struggling because they have added personnel. They are struggling because PG is playing like absolute garbage Ö pretty much ever since that rumor about him came out. Who knows why, but he hasnít been playing like himself at all.

smith&wesson
03-13-2014, 07:11 PM
Can you remind me what the bet was about? :)

lol no clue brotha Ö but do me a favor and remind me to never, ever sig bet anyone on anything lol no matter how sure I think I am. Lol

pulzar
03-13-2014, 08:27 PM
can I not voice my concerns with that? I can care less about why posters think MU fell short in doing so, the point is he did.

Sure you can. But you seemed very dismissive of any opinions on why the move was not made, so I thought maybe you had a better theory.

Personally, I don't think it's a big deal. The only C in worried about is Mr. Verticality Rule, and let's face it, we were never going to find someone to deal with him. Getting Tyler to get under his skin and pick up quick fouls is probably our only chance :).

But I don't see any team in the first round with such a dominant center that we can't neutralize him with some good team D.

pulzar
03-13-2014, 08:28 PM
lol no clue brotha Ö but do me a favor and remind me to never, ever sig bet anyone on anything lol no matter how sure I think I am. Lol

So no sig bet that we aren't going to lose in the first round because of a lack of a strong backup C? ;)

killersweet
03-13-2014, 08:41 PM
They arenít struggling because they have added personnel. They are struggling because PG is playing like absolute garbage Ö pretty much ever since that rumor about him came out. Who knows why, but he hasnít been playing like himself at all.

From the west road trip onwards, they seem to have lost focus. They had some games where they looked really bored. I think they will bounce back in time for the playoffs. But yea, at he moment, they are not playing well.

Bob_at_york
03-13-2014, 10:20 PM
lol no clue brotha Ö but do me a favor and remind me to never, ever sig bet anyone on anything lol no matter how sure I think I am. Lol
The Sig bet was on Austin daye's playing time

ghettosean
03-14-2014, 02:21 AM
Ok, so what's your theory on why he didn't get a backup C? I think other posters have offered (1) that we don't need one and Hayes + PFs will do, or (2) that he tried there weren't any available that are better than Hayes, or (3) what was available would've required trading away some future assets. You don't think any of those 3 are valid.

What's left? MU is completely incapable? Is that the point you're trying to make?

I dont have a theory as to why, Im questioning why. Also I never stated that any of the reasons above were not valid. They may very well be.

But I would have liked to see a minor move to adress the concern, maybe he did try and it didnt work out. Whatever the reason may be, I just see a weakness aposing teams will def key in on in a 7 game series and it will probably be the reason why the team gets eliminated, possibly even in the first round.

can I not voice my concerns with that? I can care less about why posters think MU fell short in doing so, the point is he did. valid reason or not, its his job .. so I question it. to me its a glaring weakness... not a small one going in to the post season.

Well we did have Aaron Gray but we traded him to Sacramento I dont think MU fell short in anyway he has molded this team but I expect the backup C issue to be addressed in the offseason.

Sadds The Gr8
03-15-2014, 11:28 AM
Amir is similar to him and would be cheaper, plus I like the fit of PPat off the bench. If we're upgrading PF, I want a way better upgrade than Faried who also can't defend.

FriedTofuz
03-15-2014, 11:55 AM
If we sign Faried, Imma be pissed man.

ink
03-15-2014, 02:45 PM
Amir is similar to him and would be cheaper, plus I like the fit of PPat off the bench. If we're upgrading PF, I want a way better upgrade than Faried who also can't defend.

Faried would be a huge letdown.

Freakazoid
03-15-2014, 03:32 PM
Argument for Amir.
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2014.html

mike_noodles
03-15-2014, 05:15 PM
Faried would be a huge letdown.

Agreed. Especially if anybody named Lowry, Derozan, Ross, Val or Patterson are involved going the other way.


Argument for Amir.
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2014.html

My argument against Amir is that he is now what he is. He has reached his ceiling. And that's not good enough when you look at our starting 5. Lowry and Derozan are all stars or as close to as you can get without actually being one. Val and Ross need more time to develop. That leaves you with one spot that you can actually upgrade. Now Amir can stay, for sure, but he needs to go to the bench.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2014, 07:23 PM
Amir is similar to him and would be cheaper, plus I like the fit of PPat off the bench. If we're upgrading PF, I want a way better upgrade than Faried who also can't defend.

also can't defend? as in - "in addition to his other abilities", or "much like the other 2 players i mentioned"?

if it's the latter i couldn't disagree more.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2014, 07:25 PM
Argument for Amir.
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2014.html

he's amongst the top 10-15 players in adjusted +/- just about every season since he started playing.

Sadds The Gr8
03-15-2014, 07:26 PM
also can't defend? as in - "in addition to his other abilities", or "much like the other 2 players i mentioned"?

if it's the latter i couldn't disagree more.

no I was just bringing that up in Faried's case. Guess I didn't word it the best way...

Jamiecballer
03-15-2014, 08:40 PM
no I was just bringing that up in Faried's case. Guess I didn't word it the best way...
gotcha. i agree. his defensive awareness is poor.

Freakazoid
03-15-2014, 09:13 PM
My argument against Amir is that he is now what he is. He has reached his ceiling. And that's not good enough when you look at our starting 5. Lowry and Derozan are all stars or as close to as you can get without actually being one. Val and Ross need more time to develop. That leaves you with one spot that you can actually upgrade. Now Amir can stay, for sure, but he needs to go to the bench.

I agree but Faried and Patterson aren't superior options. Unless we're getting someone that is as good or better than a player like Al Horford, we're better off staying put.

ink
03-15-2014, 09:55 PM
My argument against Amir is that he is now what he is. He has reached his ceiling. And that's not good enough when you look at our starting 5. Lowry and Derozan are all stars or as close to as you can get without actually being one. Val and Ross need more time to develop. That leaves you with one spot that you can actually upgrade. Now Amir can stay, for sure, but he needs to go to the bench.

I agree but Faried and Patterson aren't superior options. Unless we're getting someone that is as good or better than a player like Al Horford, we're better off staying put.

Yup, we have to hope for a lot more if MU is making a move.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-15-2014, 10:28 PM
My argument against Amir is that he is now what he is. He has reached his ceiling. And that's not good enough when you look at our starting 5. Lowry and Derozan are all stars or as close to as you can get without actually being one. Val and Ross need more time to develop. That leaves you with one spot that you can actually upgrade. Now Amir can stay, for sure, but he needs to go to the bench.

Amir is the ultimate role player though. He doesn't even need to touch the ball to be effective on the court.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2014, 10:41 PM
Amir is the ultimate role player though. He doesn't even need to touch the ball to be effective on the court.

Agreed. What a luxury for a coach.

pulzar
03-15-2014, 11:36 PM
Amir is the ultimate role player though. He doesn't even need to touch the ball to be effective on the court.

How so? The way I see him, he is most effective in a pick and roll, where he needs to be a scoring threat. Otherwise he tends to sit at the top of the key and swing the ball around (or shoot bad threes). He sets some low post screens, but I see Ross and Demar do it for each other about as often, with similar success.

I'm not trying to knock him, I just don't see what he's effective at without the ball, and I need some direction in what to look for.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 12:03 AM
How so? The way I see him, he is most effective in a pick and roll, where he needs to be a scoring threat. Otherwise he tends to sit at the top of the key and swing the ball around (or shoot bad threes). He sets some low post screens, but I see Ross and Demar do it for each other about as often, with similar success.

I'm not trying to knock him, I just don't see what he's effective at without the ball, and I need some direction in what to look for.

Defensive positioning, help defence, transition defence, man to man defense (when guarding guys his size). He has some good hands for a big man, especially defensively. Forgot the site it was on but he is a big reason why we have been a better defensive team when he plays PF since his help defence stands out more and he's not struggling to defend bigger players. Screens alone increases the team's offensive numbers significantly and basically any game you watch, you can see him set a screen for someone like Lowry, Demar etc where a wide open shot (whether made or miss), driving lane to the basket or a free throw attempt will be the result. That's pretty valuable for this team considering we are very limited offensively and we need everyone to pitch in. He makes it easier for the guys who do majority of the scoring to get some open looks.


Okay, technically, he does need to touch the ball offensively. But the fact that he can be so effective offensively is great. He can literally have a great offensive impact while touching the ball for like 1 second out of the shot clock each time with P&R and cuts. He does need to cut down on his 3's though. Seems like Casey is using him to stretch the floor out more since it allows more open lanes for Demar/Lowry/Ross and he's being given wide open shots (which technically he should shoot since he's shooting 50% from 10 feet to just inside the 3 point line). He needs to cut down on his threes but I guess Casey probably has given him some green light to shoot from them sometimes when open since he's settling him them (ala Bargnani) to open up the driving lanes.

gwrighter
03-16-2014, 12:05 AM
How so? The way I see him, he is most effective in a pick and roll, where he needs to be a scoring threat. Otherwise he tends to sit at the top of the key and swing the ball around (or shoot bad threes). He sets some low post screens, but I see Ross and Demar do it for each other about as often, with similar success.

I'm not trying to knock him, I just don't see what he's effective at without the ball, and I need some direction in what to look for.

Mostly defensively. Guarding multiple positions, guarding the P&R, Weak-side blocks, D & O rebounding, hustle plays.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 12:13 AM
I agree but Faried and Patterson aren't superior options. Unless we're getting someone that is as good or better than a player like Al Horford, we're better off staying put.


Yup, we have to hope for a lot more if MU is making a move.

I agree with both of you. If Faried is an upgrade, he is a small one. I want a big upgrade if we're upgrading a big man.


Amir is the ultimate role player though. He doesn't even need to touch the ball to be effective on the court.

That's why he's a perfect bench player especially if you get a good PnR guard to work with him.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 12:18 AM
Well you do need someone in the starting lineup to do the little things. We have enough scorers in the lineup as it is. He's there for defensive purposes and to pick up the slack offensively by getting quick baskets.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 12:20 AM
I agree with both of you. If Faried is an upgrade, he is a small one. I want a big upgrade if we're upgrading a big man.



That's why he's a perfect bench player especially if you get a good PnR guard to work with him.
I like guys on the bench to be more specialist type players or guys that just aren't good enough. Amir on the bench is just a waste unless you've got a damn good pair if forwards IMO.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 12:23 AM
Well you do need someone in the starting lineup to do the little things. We have enough scorers in the lineup as it is. He's there for defensive purposes and to pick up the slack offensively by getting quick baskets.

We have to stop calling the little things the "little things". These little things are vitally important!

If Bargnani had any of the "little things" he would have been a superstar.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 12:26 AM
We have to stop calling the little things the "little things". These little things are vitally important!

If Bargnani had any of the "little things" he would have been a superstar.

Lol.

Little things meaning the not flashy things.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 12:37 AM
Lol.

Little things meaning the not flashy things.
I know exactly what you are referring to but in basketball what is often termed the little things is the difference between a good and bad basketball team; a player that creates value or takes it away. Not small at all.

ink
03-16-2014, 12:41 AM
Lol.

Little things meaning the not flashy things.
I know exactly what you are referring to but in basketball what is often termed the little things is the difference between a good and bad basketball team; a player that creates value or takes it away. Not small at all.

Agreed.

IQ and fundamentals combined.

:up:

Sanyo
03-16-2014, 02:02 AM
If ATL decides to blow it up, wonder what it would take to get Millsap, would love him on this team!

Wish him and Al Jefferson were going to free agency this year, any one of them would have been a crazy pick up!

B2B
03-16-2014, 09:01 AM
If ATL decides to blow it up, wonder what it would take to get Millsap, would love him on this team!

Wish him and Al Jefferson were going to free agency this year, any one of them would have been a crazy pick up!

If Atlanta blow it up, I would be looking at Horford.

Tanking teams would take young player/s & or pick/s

In order for it to not cost one of Jonas or Ross, I would assume multiple picks + salary relief.

Salmons, Fields, Hayes (19mil in expiring) 2014 1st, 2016 1st, 2016 knick 1st.

for

Horford + Korver

Horford/Jonas
Amir/Patterson/Hansborough
Ross/Korver
Derozan/Korver/GV
Lowry/GV

B2B
03-16-2014, 09:05 AM
Salmons + Jonas + one of Raptors/Knicks 2016 pick

for

Horford

Draft a SF with the 2014 pick, maybe use the Raptors/Knick 2016 pick to trade up.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 09:18 AM
Well you do need someone in the starting lineup to do the little things. We have enough scorers in the lineup as it is. He's there for defensive purposes and to pick up the slack offensively by getting quick baskets.


I like guys on the bench to be more specialist type players or guys that just aren't good enough. Amir on the bench is just a waste unless you've got a damn good pair if forwards IMO.

So what then? You think we should never look for an upgrade because you don't think Amir should be on the bench or because he does some little things well? This is the mentality that keeps us a treadmill team. We need upgrades if we ever seriously want to contend. I love Amir as much as everyone else, but we cannot have this mentality of being so emotionally attached to a player that we are blinded by the clear fact we need to upgrade.

Obviously that is not the only spot we need to upgrade, but the two other positions that need upgrades, should upgrade on their own through hard work, experience, development and learning from their mistakes.

B2B
03-16-2014, 09:38 AM
So what then? You think we should never look for an upgrade because you don't think Amir should be on the bench or because he does some little things well? This is the mentality that keeps us a treadmill team. We need upgrades if we ever seriously want to contend. I love Amir as much as everyone else, but we cannot have this mentality of being so emotionally attached to a player that we are blinded by the clear fact we need to upgrade.

Obviously that is not the only spot we need to upgrade, but the two other positions that need upgrades, should upgrade on their own through hard work, experience, development and learning from their mistakes.

Raptors are running 2 SG's on the wing, they need to upgrade the SF spot IMO & make a decision on Derozan/Ross.

When Casey is asking Amir to cover Johnson, the lack of size shows.

I think Masai has to consider the option of trading "Allstar" Derozan + into the draft for a SF.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 11:34 AM
So what then? You think we should never look for an upgrade because you don't think Amir should be on the bench or because he does some little things well? This is the mentality that keeps us a treadmill team. We need upgrades if we ever seriously want to contend. I love Amir as much as everyone else, but we cannot have this mentality of being so emotionally attached to a player that we are blinded by the clear fact we need to upgrade.

Obviously that is not the only spot we need to upgrade, but the two other positions that need upgrades, should upgrade on their own through hard work, experience, development and learning from their mistakes.

Of course we need upgrades. But there are limits to how much each player can contribute on the floor. If say we get a 20 and 10 PF, then someone else in the starting 5 will be delegated (not by choice either. It will happen) to that "little things" type of guy (probably Jonas wont get the ball as much and be reduced to a rebounding/defensive player) and the rest of the players won't be able to maintain their current course.

There's not enough ball for everyone. Lowry and Demar already score the ball enough. If we have a better scoring PF, then we are simply taking away shots from either guy, which then they are reduced to doing the "little things" more for more possessions.

North Yorker
03-16-2014, 11:49 AM
Of course we need upgrades. But there are limits to how much each player can contribute on the floor. If say we get a 20 and 10 PF, then someone else in the starting 5 will be delegated (not by choice either. It will happen) to that "little things" type of guy (probably Jonas wont get the ball as much and be reduced to a rebounding/defensive player) and the rest of the players won't be able to maintain their current course.

There's not enough ball for everyone. Lowry and Demar already score the ball enough. If we have a better scoring PF, then we are simply taking away shots from either guy, which then they are reduced to doing the "little things" more for more possessions.

Disagree with this completely. Getting a scoring bigman would benefit the offense greatly. Trading Lowry's 41.8% and DeRozan's 43% field goal percentage with a big that can get high % shots? Get opposing bigs in foul trouble? Sign me up. It's an essential component for a championship team.

Don't necessarily need a 20/10 big man, but we need a guy that is at least capable of doing that. Getting a combined 21 ppg from our starting PF and C is something that needs to be addressed.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 11:55 AM
So what then? You think we should never look for an upgrade because you don't think Amir should be on the bench or because he does some little things well? This is the mentality that keeps us a treadmill team. We need upgrades if we ever seriously want to contend. I love Amir as much as everyone else, but we cannot have this mentality of being so emotionally attached to a player that we are blinded by the clear fact we need to upgrade.

Obviously that is not the only spot we need to upgrade, but the two other positions that need upgrades, should upgrade on their own through hard work, experience, development and learning from their mistakes.
You nailed it. Patience is needed. Not replacing the guy that puts up the smallest box score numbers. That's a panic move. If your core guys aren't good enough that you feel the need to upgrade Amir than you've got the wrong core guys.

I dont believe a guy shows up at the top of the adjusted plus minus list year after year by accident. His role is just as vital to our success as anybody on this team and the fact that he excels at so many aspects of the game that are not reflected in the box score is the primary reason for the team consistently being at its best with Amir on the floor.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 12:02 PM
Raptors are running 2 SG's on the wing, they need to upgrade the SF spot IMO & make a decision on Derozan/Ross.

When Casey is asking Amir to cover Johnson, the lack of size shows.

I think Masai has to consider the option of trading "Allstar" Derozan + into the draft for a SF.

I agree. I would upgrade Demar or Jonas or start over.

Sorry I forgot to mention the 3rd option. Be patient and allow guys like Demar/Jonas/Ross to develop into the players you were expecting them to become.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 12:08 PM
Of course we need upgrades. But there are limits to how much each player can contribute on the floor. If say we get a 20 and 10 PF, then someone else in the starting 5 will be delegated (not by choice either. It will happen) to that "little things" type of guy (probably Jonas wont get the ball as much and be reduced to a rebounding/defensive player) and the rest of the players won't be able to maintain their current course.

There's not enough ball for everyone. Lowry and Demar already score the ball enough. If we have a better scoring PF, then we are simply taking away shots from either guy, which then they are reduced to doing the "little things" more for more possessions.

Bang on. The people who want to move Amir willing probably be surprised when this great "team" we are seeing starts to function like a group of 5 individuals again.

That's what generally happens as you add more scorers to a starting unit. Right now the balance is perfect.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 12:12 PM
Disagree with this completely. Getting a scoring bigman would benefit the offense greatly. Trading Lowry's 41.8% and DeRozan's 43% field goal percentage with a big that can get high % shots? Get opposing bigs in foul trouble? Sign me up. It's an essential component for a championship team.

Don't necessarily need a 20/10 big man, but we need a guy that is at least capable of doing that. Getting a combined 21 ppg from our starting PF and C is something that needs to be addressed.
You realize fg% is a useless measure of scoring effectiveness right? Lowrys percentage might as well be high 40's when you consider the points he produces off of it.

The goal isn't high percentage shots its a high return per shot and Lowry gets that. Look at Aldridge, he gets the least productive 20 points a game and he's upper 40's.

Bigs generally give you more consistent high return but Amir is already one of the leagues best at that.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 12:21 PM
Disagree with this completely. Getting a scoring bigman would benefit the offense greatly. Trading Lowry's 41.8% and DeRozan's 43% field goal percentage with a big that can get high % shots? Get opposing bigs in foul trouble? Sign me up. It's an essential component for a championship team.

It can benefit the offense, of course. I'm saying someone will basically have to take a backseat role and whoever that is, do they have what it takes to be as effective without the ball? Do you think Derozan and Lowry would be able to maintain their pace if we got another scorer?


Don't necessarily need a 20/10 big man, but we need a guy that is at least capable of doing that. Getting a combined 21 ppg from our starting PF and C is something that needs to be addressed.

Develop Jonas then. He can be a 15 and 10 guy with the touches next year probably. But then again, the reason he is not getting touches is because Lowry and Derozan get majority of the shots.

ink
03-16-2014, 12:26 PM
Of course we need upgrades. But there are limits to how much each player can contribute on the floor. If say we get a 20 and 10 PF, then someone else in the starting 5 will be delegated (not by choice either. It will happen) to that "little things" type of guy (probably Jonas wont get the ball as much and be reduced to a rebounding/defensive player) and the rest of the players won't be able to maintain their current course.

There's not enough ball for everyone. Lowry and Demar already score the ball enough. If we have a better scoring PF, then we are simply taking away shots from either guy, which then they are reduced to doing the "little things" more for more possessions.

Disagree with this completely. Getting a scoring bigman would benefit the offense greatly. Trading Lowry's 41.8% and DeRozan's 43% field goal percentage with a big that can get high % shots? Get opposing bigs in foul trouble? Sign me up. It's an essential component for a championship team.

Don't necessarily need a 20/10 big man, but we need a guy that is at least capable of doing that. Getting a combined 21 ppg from our starting PF and C is something that needs to be addressed.

Agreed. Having a balanced inside-outside team has to be the goal of any contender. All players should take care of the little things.

North Yorker
03-16-2014, 12:32 PM
You realize fg% is a useless measure of scoring effectiveness right? Lowrys percentage might as well be high 40's when you consider the points he produces off of it.

The goal isn't high percentage shots its a high return per shot and Lowry gets that. Look at Aldridge, he gets the least productive 20 points a game and he's upper 40's.

Because he is taking twice as many 3's than his career average. And to his credit he's making them. But I'm not big on the philosophy that shooting 40% from 3 is equivalent to shooting 60% from 2. Production like that isn't as sustainable imo.

But when the game slows down in the playoffs and we need to a bucket in the crucial part of the game, having a big that can get high percentage shots and get to the foul line is crucial. Literally every championship team in the last 20 years at least had a guy they could toss the ball into on the low block and score efficiently.

We are too easy of a team to beat on the nights DeRozan gets shut down. We lose that game to Memphis if Jonas didn't double his normal production.

North Yorker
03-16-2014, 12:43 PM
It can benefit the offense, of course. I'm saying someone will basically have to take a backseat role and whoever that is, do they have what it takes to be as effective without the ball? Do you think Derozan and Lowry would be able to maintain their pace if we got another scorer?

Couldn't care less if they maintain their pace, as long as the overall team offense is more dynamic and harder to stop. Lowry is very effective off the ball already, he plays 2 guard all the time when GV is on the court. DeRozan is showing to be more unselfish this season, I'm fine with his role as long as he starts cutting down on those long 2s he falls in love with. He can get those shots anytime he wants because those are the shots the other team WANTS you to shoot.



Develop Jonas then. He can be a 15 and 10 guy with the touches next year probably. But then again, the reason he is not getting touches is because Lowry and Derozan get majority of the shots.


That would be the best case scenario, but developing him shouldnt hinder us from looking to upgrade next to him. If there is a David West to Indy type acquisition that could be make this team more dangerous and multi-dimensional then I'm all for it.

ink
03-16-2014, 12:44 PM
You realize fg% is a useless measure of scoring effectiveness right? Lowrys percentage might as well be high 40's when you consider the points he produces off of it.

The goal isn't high percentage shots its a high return per shot and Lowry gets that. Look at Aldridge, he gets the least productive 20 points a game and he's upper 40's.

Because he is taking twice as many 3's than his career average. And to his credit he's making them. But I'm not big on the philosophy that shooting 40% from 3 is equivalent to shooting 60% from 2. Production like that isn't as sustainable imo.

But when the game slows down in the playoffs and we need to a bucket in the crucial part of the game, having a big that can get high percentage shots and get to the foul line is crucial. Literally every championship team in the last 20 years at least had a guy they could toss the ball into on the low block and score efficiently.

We are too easy of a team to beat on the nights DeRozan gets shut down. We lose that game to Memphis if Jonas didn't double his normal production.

Absolutely. To move the ball effectively the team must improve it's big men, and not just backups. Someone has to be elite inside. And getting high % inside shots is fundamental, it's basic. No contender succeeds without the ability to get high % scoring. And obviously those bigs also have to be up to the challenge of defending other elite bigs.

North Yorker
03-16-2014, 12:46 PM
Agreed. Having a balanced inside-outside team has to be the goal of any contender. All players should take care of the little things.

Agreed on the inside/outside approach. An offensive system like that is a great facilitator of ball movement with the right players in it.

ink
03-16-2014, 12:49 PM
Disagree with this completely. Getting a scoring bigman would benefit the offense greatly. Trading Lowry's 41.8% and DeRozan's 43% field goal percentage with a big that can get high % shots? Get opposing bigs in foul trouble? Sign me up. It's an essential component for a championship team.

It can benefit the offense, of course. I'm saying someone will basically have to take a backseat role and whoever that is, do they have what it takes to be as effective without the ball? Do you think Derozan and Lowry would be able to maintain their pace if we got another scorer?


Don't necessarily need a 20/10 big man, but we need a guy that is at least capable of doing that. Getting a combined 21 ppg from our starting PF and C is something that needs to be addressed.

Develop Jonas then. He can be a 15 and 10 guy with the touches next year probably. But then again, the reason he is not getting touches is because Lowry and Derozan get majority of the shots.

I don't agree at all with this. Any wing dependent team will have limitations. Right now we are that team. Good ball movement ensures that no new player will dominate the ball. The entire point is balance.

So much about this need hinges on JVs development of course.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 01:05 PM
I don't agree at all with this. Any wing dependent team will have limitations. Right now we are that team. Good ball movement ensures that no new player will dominate the ball. The entire point is balance.

I understand that. I know we need a big man. I'm saying we also need a guy like Amir on the team playing major minutes. Every team in the league has that type of player (ultimate role player) playing major minutes. If we get a scoring big man, then we are relegating Jonas to that role player role, which he won't be able to do as effectively as Amir. If you people really want a scoring big man, you should upgrade Jonas.

ink
03-16-2014, 01:07 PM
I don't agree at all with this. Any wing dependent team will have limitations. Right now we are that team. Good ball movement ensures that no new player will dominate the ball. The entire point is balance.

I understand that. I know we need a big man. I'm saying we also need a guy like Amir on the team playing major minutes. Every team in the league has that type of player (ultimate role player) playing major minutes. If we get a scoring big man, then we are relegating Jonas to that role player role, which he won't be able to do as effectively as Amir. If you people really want a scoring big man, you should upgrade Jonas.

Yes, or hope Jonas upgrades himself.

The beauty of Amir's game is that he can be that role player if needed. He has the versatility.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 01:10 PM
Couldn't care less if they maintain their pace, as long as the overall team offense is more dynamic and harder to stop. Lowry is very effective off the ball already, he plays 2 guard all the time when GV is on the court. DeRozan is showing to be more unselfish this season, I'm fine with his role as long as he starts cutting down on those long 2s he falls in love with. He can get those shots anytime he wants because those are the shots the other team WANTS you to shoot.

If you want to make this team harder to stop, then why are you upgrading the wrong position? The C position is what you should be trying to upgrade. That way, Derozan and Lowry to not have to do things they are not as great at because we have Amir to pick up the slack. If we upgraded Amir to a scorer, then we are either looking at Lowry/Derozan to learn new things out of their comfort zone or delegate Jonas to do the things Amir used to do.


That would be the best case scenario, but developing him shouldnt hinder us from looking to upgrade next to him. If there is a David West to Indy type acquisition that could be make this team more dangerous and multi-dimensional then I'm all for it.

Wait, so do you want to upgrade Amir to a 20/10 scorer or upgrade to a defensive role player like West?

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 01:12 PM
Yes, or hope Jonas upgrades himself.

The beauty of Amir's game is that he can be that role player if needed. He has the versatility.

Exactly. That's why you keep him, not trade him for a scorer (because then we'd need to reconfigure the remaining 4 players anyway). He's actually the only piece we have comparable to that of what championship teams have. If you still want a better big man, then Jonas will have to be the one who gets traded/turns into the scorer you covet.

ink
03-16-2014, 01:26 PM
Exactly. That's why you keep him, not trade him for a scorer (because then we'd need to reconfigure the remaining 4 players anyway). He's actually the only piece we have comparable to that of what championship teams have. If you still want a better big man, then Jonas will have to be the one who gets traded/turns into the scorer you covet.

I didn't see a comment suggesting to trade him for a scorer. I'm a fan. You keep a player like Amir. He doesn't need to start to be effective.

smith&wesson
03-16-2014, 01:33 PM
I didn't see a comment suggesting to trade him for a scorer. I'm a fan. You keep a player like Amir. He doesn't need to start to be effective.

after getting some good rest for that injury he was playing through, he looks to be back to form and playing well again.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 01:33 PM
True he doesn't need to start. But ideally, a team should have a scoring big man and defensive big man starting and playing big minutes. That's why him starting makes a lot of sense as opposed to coming off the bench.

ink
03-16-2014, 01:38 PM
Sorry I forgot to mention the 3rd option. Be patient and allow guys like Demar/Jonas/Ross to develop into the players you were expecting them to become.

Definitely an option, especially since we're committed to development at this point.


You realize fg% is a useless measure of scoring effectiveness right?

It's not that it's a useless measure in principle, it's that it's not refined enough. The principle remains the same, you need the ability to make inside high percentage plays on a regular basis. It's the best possible way to safeguard against becoming a perimeter-oriented, jump shooting team. You need strength in the post where those high % shots are.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 01:41 PM
Of course we need upgrades. But there are limits to how much each player can contribute on the floor. If say we get a 20 and 10 PF, then someone else in the starting 5 will be delegated (not by choice either. It will happen) to that "little things" type of guy (probably Jonas wont get the ball as much and be reduced to a rebounding/defensive player) and the rest of the players won't be able to maintain their current course.

There's not enough ball for everyone. Lowry and Demar already score the ball enough. If we have a better scoring PF, then we are simply taking away shots from either guy, which then they are reduced to doing the "little things" more for more possessions.

But if you get the right guy, it doesn't have to be like that. Take Bosh as an example. He was a 24 and 10 guy one year with us, now look at his numbers. He's a team first guy.

Also, doing the "little things" isn't a task that is assigned I don't believe. You either have it, or you don't. For example, Lowry does those things as well and they are a result of good basketball iq, heart, hustle and determination.

ink
03-16-2014, 01:43 PM
But if you get the right guy, it doesn't have to be like that. Take Bosh as an example. He was a 24 and 10 guy one year with us, now look at his numbers. He's a team first guy.

Also, doing the "little things" isn't a task that is assigned I don't believe. You either have it, or you don't. For example, Lowry does those things as well and they are a result of good basketball iq, heart, hustle and determination.

Exactly. I know I use the Spurs as an example every time lol, but look at their roster. 15 guys who do the little things right.

North Yorker
03-16-2014, 01:44 PM
If you want to make this team harder to stop, then why are you upgrading the wrong position? The C position is what you should be trying to upgrade. That way, Derozan and Lowry to not have to do things they are not as great at because we have Amir to pick up the slack. If we upgraded Amir to a scorer, then we are either looking at Lowry/Derozan to learn new things out of their comfort zone or delegate Jonas to do the things Amir used to do.
I'm not talking about replacing him with Carlos Boozer 2.0, or even trading Amir to get this 'upgrade'. What are the things Lowry and DeRozan would be forced to do that they're not great at? It's arguable that they will become more well-rounded in their games since they theoretically wouldn't have to exert as much energy on offense.



Wait, so do you want to upgrade Amir to a 20/10 scorer or upgrade to a defensive role player like West?
A guy like West when he signed with Indy was a capable 20/10 guy. He didn't need to be that in Indy but he added a dimension to their offense they were lacking without compromising their defense. That's why I said we dont necessarily need a 20/10 guy but a guy that at least has the offensive repertoire to be that threat.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 01:45 PM
You nailed it. Patience is needed. Not replacing the guy that puts up the smallest box score numbers. That's a panic move. If your core guys aren't good enough that you feel the need to upgrade Amir than you've got the wrong core guys.

I dont believe a guy shows up at the top of the adjusted plus minus list year after year by accident. His role is just as vital to our success as anybody on this team and the fact that he excels at so many aspects of the game that are not reflected in the box score is the primary reason for the team consistently being at its best with Amir on the floor.

It's definitely not about replacing the guy with the lowest box score number. It's about replacing the guy who has reached his ceiling and knowing that said ceiling is not good enough. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it has to be done today, but if we are looking at an upgrade this off season, he's the guy. If we wait two more years before making that move, things will have changed. Maybe it's JV or Ross. But the ceilings of the other four starters are much higher than Amir's right now.

Also, I've seen a couple of people put words in my mouth. Never once have I said we needed to add scoring. Just because I want an upgrade at PF, doesn't mean he has to be a pure scorer. Should he be able to score? Of course. But I think a well rounded PF is just as important as scoring.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 01:51 PM
Because he is taking twice as many 3's than his career average. And to his credit he's making them. But I'm not big on the philosophy that shooting 40% from 3 is equivalent to shooting 60% from 2. Production like that isn't as sustainable imo.

But when the game slows down in the playoffs and we need to a bucket in the crucial part of the game, having a big that can get high percentage shots and get to the foul line is crucial. Literally every championship team in the last 20 years at least had a guy they could toss the ball into on the low block and score efficiently.

We are too easy of a team to beat on the nights DeRozan gets shut down. We lose that game to Memphis if Jonas didn't double his normal production.
i don't disagree but that just means Jonas isn't far enough along in the development curve right now. why not take the long view and leave him the room to grow into it.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 01:53 PM
But if you get the right guy, it doesn't have to be like that. Take Bosh as an example. He was a 24 and 10 guy one year with us, now look at his numbers. He's a team first guy.

It would be a team first mentality. I'm saying how would those player's (Demar and Lowry) effectiveness be affected if we got another scorer? Would they be useful enough without the ball to justify the extra possessions they will be denied? For example, if Derozan's best attribute is scoring and he's subpar every other facet of the game, I would try to maximize the amount of shots he takes to make him as useful as possible (to the point where it doesn't hurt the team).

Bosh was criticized for not being able to do as much without the ball and it was pointed out when Miami lost (like rebounding, better defender, etc).


Also, doing the "little things" isn't a task that is assigned I don't believe. You either have it, or you don't. For example, Lowry does those things as well and they are a result of good basketball iq, heart, hustle and determination.

It's not a task, but there is typically 1 player on each team who excels at that more than others and make it their job to do that for their team. We have that player already. Why change him for a scorer when you should be pairing a scorer along with that guy? If we replace Amir with a scorer, we either need Jonas to do the things Amir does or trade Jonas for a player who can do those things like Amir to maximize that starting front court. It's a rare breed to have stars who can do the 'little things'. Noah is the ultimate example but even he isn't a scoring player.

ink
03-16-2014, 02:01 PM
But if you get the right guy, it doesn't have to be like that. Take Bosh as an example. He was a 24 and 10 guy one year with us, now look at his numbers. He's a team first guy.

It would be a team first mentality. I'm saying how would those player's (Demar and Lowry) effectiveness be affected if we got another scorer? Would they be useful enough without the ball to justify the extra possessions they will be denied? For example, if Derozan's best attribute is scoring and he's subpar every other facet of the game, I would try to maximize the amount of shots he takes to make him as useful as possible (to the point where it doesn't hurt the team).

Bosh was criticized for not being able to do as much without the ball and it was pointed out when Miami lost (like rebounding, better defender, etc).


Also, doing the "little things" isn't a task that is assigned I don't believe. You either have it, or you don't. For example, Lowry does those things as well and they are a result of good basketball iq, heart, hustle and determination.

It's not a task, but there is typically 1 player on each team who excels at that more than others and make it their job to do that for their team. We have that player already. Why change him for a scorer when you should be pairing a scorer along with that guy? If we replace Amir with a scorer, we either need Jonas to do the things Amir does or trade Jonas for a player who can do those things like Amir to maximize that starting front court. It's a rare breed to have stars who can do the 'little things'. Noah is the ultimate example but even he isn't a scoring player.

I don't agree that it has to be one guy that does the little things. That's the flaw in your point IMHO.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 02:05 PM
A guy like West when he signed with Indy was a capable 20/10 guy. He didn't need to be that in Indy but he added a dimension to their offense they were lacking without compromising their defense. That's why I said we dont necessarily need a 20/10 guy but a guy that at least has the offensive repertoire to be that threat.

Yes, yes. Exactly.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 02:10 PM
I'm not talking about replacing him with Carlos Boozer 2.0, or even trading Amir to get this 'upgrade'. What are the things Lowry and DeRozan would be forced to do that they're not great at? It's arguable that they will become more well-rounded in their games since they theoretically wouldn't have to exert as much energy on offense.

So let's take your scenario and upgrade Amir for a near 20 and 10 guy. Unless that guy can provide the exact same things Amir could (impact half court defense, transition defense, ability to help create offensive opportunities, etc) while scoring his 20 and 10, there will be the small pieces that need to be rounded out by the remaining players. Is the remaining starting 5 good enough on help defense to off-set what Amir brought to the table? Ability to rotate or help in creation of offense for others?

As for being more rounded out, depends on how you value what their capabilities are and after weighing the benefits. They could possibly improve and be more rounded (more Lowry than Derozan), but would it be worth it? If Demar was able to decrease his scoring to increase his rebounding, defense and passing (say like Stephenson numbers), then it might be worth it.

Bosh is a superb offensive talent but he's not being utilized correctly because what Miami needs (more on the defensive side), Bosh can't provide as well as Miami need. It could happen the same for the Raptors if we don't have that type of player to round out the team.



A guy like West when he signed with Indy was a capable 20/10 guy. He didn't need to be that in Indy but he added a dimension to their offense they were lacking without compromising their defense. That's why I said we dont necessarily need a 20/10 guy but a guy that at least has the offensive repertoire to be that threat.

I agree we need a better scoring option up front. Someone was saying to upgrade Amir for better scoring options, to which I said you should pair Amir with that scoring option, not delegate/trade Amir to get that guy.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 02:14 PM
It would be a team first mentality. I'm saying how would those player's (Demar and Lowry) effectiveness be affected if we got another scorer? Would they be useful enough without the ball to justify the extra possessions they will be denied? For example, if Derozan's best attribute is scoring and he's subpar every other facet of the game, I would try to maximize the amount of shots he takes to make him as useful as possible (to the point where it doesn't hurt the team).

Bosh was criticized for not being able to do as much without the ball and it was pointed out when Miami lost (like rebounding, better defender, etc).



It's not a task, but there is typically 1 player on each team who excels at that more than others and make it their job to do that for their team. We have that player already. Why change him for a scorer when you should be pairing a scorer along with that guy? If we replace Amir with a scorer, we either need Jonas to do the things Amir does or trade Jonas for a player who can do those things like Amir to maximize that starting front court. It's a rare breed to have stars who can do the 'little things'. Noah is the ultimate example but even he isn't a scoring player.

Hopefully their effectiveness would not be an issue. For example, if you only take 3 shots away from them each (at ~45%) and gave them to this new PF (plus he gets Amir's old shots at say ~50%) are we not better off? And that doesn't even include the other things that having a true post presence brings with it. The double team, the kick out, the swing, the extra pass. Oh lord I can visualize it already. One thing it should help to do, is get many more wide open threes for Ross, DD and Lowry.

Again, I'm not saying we have to get rid of Amir, just move him to the bench. He can still get his 30 minutes a night, and he would actually be my C for the last few minutes of the game until Jonas has shown he's ready for that.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 02:17 PM
I don't agree that it has to be one guy that does the little things. That's the flaw in your point IMHO.

I'm not saying it has to be 1 guy. I'm saying there is typically an individual that excels at it more than others on each team. If everyone pitches in, then great, but unfortunately, not everyone can be a Joakim Noah, Al Horford and Luol Deng type player where they can both be a star and have major impacts AND do the "little things" role players are supposed to do. But those players aren't always available for each position on a team and doesn't happen all the time. That's why slick and smart veteran who have helped teams make pushes in the playoffs the past 10 years like Battier, Haslem (first Heat title), Kidd (his later years), Perkins, etc come in. Amir is basically our version of those players.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 02:20 PM
Is it pretty safe to say though that most of us feel like Faried is not the upgrade we're looking for?

When I'm talking upgrade, I'm talking Horford, Noah, Bosh, Davis, etc. Guys like that.

North Yorker
03-16-2014, 02:21 PM
i don't disagree but that just means Jonas isn't far enough along in the development curve right now. why not take the long view and leave him the room to grow into it.

Because I dont think it has to be 1 or the other.

He could grow into that role over the next few years while developing his overall game and improving his greatest flaw, his defense. He's not on the bench at the end of games because he's not capable offensively.

ink
03-16-2014, 02:22 PM
I'm not saying it has to be 1 guy. I'm saying there is typically an individual that excels at it more than others on each team. If everyone pitches in, then great, but unfortunately, not everyone can be a Joakim Noah, Al Horford and Luol Deng type player where they can both be a star and have major impacts AND do the "little things" role players are supposed to do. But those players aren't always available for each position on a team and doesn't happen all the time. That's why slick and smart veteran who have helped teams make pushes in the playoffs the past 10 years like Battier, Haslem (first Heat title), Kidd (his later years), Perkins, etc come in. Amir is basically our version of those players.

People undervalue the "little things" Casey preaches and teaches. IMO the goal for a roster is to have everyone do those little things. Already in the starting 5 we have both of our bigs and our PG doing them. Ross is also on his way, it's going to be part of his skill set, and with DD's work ethic, I wouldn't be surprised to see him develop in that way too. We don't need one player to be "that" player. To contend we need all our players to be that player. It should be a pre-requisite.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 02:22 PM
Hopefully their effectiveness would not be an issue. For example, if you only take 3 shots away from them each (at ~45%) and gave them to this new PF (plus he gets Amir's old shots at say ~50%) are we not better off? And that doesn't even include the other things that having a true post presence brings with it. The double team, the kick out, the swing, the extra pass. Oh lord I can visualize it already. One thing it should help to do, is get many more wide open threes for Ross, DD and Lowry.

If they are shooting 45% ish (which is better than what they are averaging now) and that PF gets 50%, then sure, get that PF. I wouldn't know exact numbers but Amir probably has a major impact on Lowry and Demar's ability to get baskets though (you could probably watch a game and see like 10 times a game he'll set a screen that gets Lowry and Demar a made shot, FT attempts or good looking missed shot) so I'd be surprised if their FG% went up to that.


Again, I'm not saying we have to get rid of Amir, just move him to the bench. He can still get his 30 minutes a night, and he would actually be my C for the last few minutes of the game until Jonas has shown he's ready for that.

Well if he is still on the team getting 30 while we have Jonas and a near star big man, then that is fine. Though that would phase out Jonas' role quite a big. It'd be more ideal to have a scoring big man C, Amir at PF and Jonas off the bench (since Jonas' strength right now is ability to score, which is useful off the bench).

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 02:23 PM
People undervalue the "little things" Casey preaches and teaches. IMO the goal for a roster is to have everyone do those little things. Already in the starting 5 we have both of our bigs and our PG doing them. Ross is also on his way, it's going to be part of his skill set, and with DD's work ethic, I wouldn't be surprised to see him develop in that way too. We don't need one player to be "that" player. To contend we need all our players to be that player. It should be a pre-requisite.

I don't think I realized it until we've been having this discussion. But that is the winning culture people talk about, the "buying in" if you will, actually happening on the floor.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 02:25 PM
People undervalue the "little things" Casey preaches and teaches. IMO the goal for a roster is to have everyone do those little things. Already in the starting 5 we have both of our bigs and our PG doing them. Ross is also on his way, it's going to be part of his skill set, and with DD's work ethic, I wouldn't be surprised to see him develop in that way too. We don't need one player to be "that" player. To contend we need all our players to be that player. It should be a pre-requisite.

Of course everyone needs to do those things. But not everyone can do it to the point where they can do that while doing the things they are great at. It's just not in people's skill sets sometimes to do those little things, even though what they are capable of doing is very effective. That's why you have guys to be that "super-role player" type of role on each team. Casey literally gives role cards to players each season. What do you think Amir's role card (and Hansbrough's) says? I'd say along the lines of energy/hustle type guy.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 02:27 PM
Absolutely. To move the ball effectively the team must improve it's big men, and not just backups. Someone has to be elite inside. And getting high % inside shots is fundamental, it's basic. No contender succeeds without the ability to get high % scoring. And obviously those bigs also have to be up to the challenge of defending other elite bigs.
this is one of those things that sounds great but really has no basis in historical fact. Amir Johnson gets more buckets inside at a higher level of effectiveness that Bosh does in Miami. He's equal to what the Mavs had, before them. or the Celtics in 07. The only teams who this is true for are those that have a superstar low post player. The Duncans, Shaq's etc.

Teams that are built around dominant wings rarely have a big post presence, at least not amongst championship teams.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 02:33 PM
It's definitely not about replacing the guy with the lowest box score number. It's about replacing the guy who has reached his ceiling and knowing that said ceiling is not good enough. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it has to be done today, but if we are looking at an upgrade this off season, he's the guy. If we wait two more years before making that move, things will have changed. Maybe it's JV or Ross. But the ceilings of the other four starters are much higher than Amir's right now.

Also, I've seen a couple of people put words in my mouth. Never once have I said we needed to add scoring. Just because I want an upgrade at PF, doesn't mean he has to be a pure scorer. Should he be able to score? Of course. But I think a well rounded PF is just as important as scoring.

i think you are wrong on all counts here but it's your opinion, it's cool.

perhaps the reason i assume it's about scoring is simply this - if you take scoring out of the equation, who is the best player on the team? to me it's Amir. Lowry would be a fairly close second.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 02:36 PM
i think you are wrong on all counts here but it's your opinion, it's cool.

perhaps the reason i assume it's about scoring is simply this - if you take scoring out of the equation, who is the best player on the team? to me it's Amir. Lowry would be a fairly close second.

And it's cool that you're okay with the stat quo and not competing for a championship, but I want more. And to answer your question, it's Lowry, and I don't think it's even close. Unfortunately scoring makes up 50% of the game, so removing it from the equation is pointless.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 02:37 PM
It would be a team first mentality. I'm saying how would those player's (Demar and Lowry) effectiveness be affected if we got another scorer? Would they be useful enough without the ball to justify the extra possessions they will be denied? For example, if Derozan's best attribute is scoring and he's subpar every other facet of the game, I would try to maximize the amount of shots he takes to make him as useful as possible (to the point where it doesn't hurt the team).

Bosh was criticized for not being able to do as much without the ball and it was pointed out when Miami lost (like rebounding, better defender, etc).



It's not a task, but there is typically 1 player on each team who excels at that more than others and make it their job to do that for their team. We have that player already. Why change him for a scorer when you should be pairing a scorer along with that guy? If we replace Amir with a scorer, we either need Jonas to do the things Amir does or trade Jonas for a player who can do those things like Amir to maximize that starting front court. It's a rare breed to have stars who can do the 'little things'. Noah is the ultimate example but even he isn't a scoring player.

i'm completely in your court here - the most common blueprint amongst all the championship teams there have even been is in place already - we are just missing either the superstar shooting guard or the superstar big. why fudge with the rest. unselfish but very capable point guard. check. multi-dimensional sf with a great stroke and a top defender. check. outstanding unselfish defending big and hustle guy who gets high percentage baskets. check.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 02:40 PM
And it's cool that you're okay with the stat quo and not competing for a championship, but I want more. And to answer your question, it's Lowry, and I don't think it's even close. Unfortunately scoring makes up 50% of the game, so removing it from the equation is pointless.

if i thought scoring was 50% of the game maybe i'd agree. wow. it's much much smaller than that. no wonder we don't see eye to eye.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 02:42 PM
Also, I've seen a couple of people put words in my mouth. Never once have I said we needed to add scoring. Just because I want an upgrade at PF, doesn't mean he has to be a pure scorer. Should he be able to score? Of course. But I think a well rounded PF is just as important as scoring.

My bad, I mixed up your post about upgrading Amir and another post responding to mine saying we would benefit from more scoring up front thinking it was the same person. I saw upgrade for Amir and naturally thought it was a reference to scoring because, there really isn't much to upgrade for Amir outside of scoring (he's literally perfect every other facet of the game). You'd need a Joakim Noah type player to upgrade Amir in each facet of the game (who would cost like $15 mil in the off-season right now).

ink
03-16-2014, 02:45 PM
i'm completely in your court here - the most common blueprint amongst all the championship teams there have even been is in place already - we are just missing either the superstar shooting guard or the superstar center. why fudge with the rest. unselfish but very capable point guard. check. multi-dimensional sf with a great stroke and a top defender. check. outstanding unselfish defending big and hustle guy who gets high percentage baskets. check.

1/3 of the league is within a superstar of contending. We're in that middle pack. And that unselfishness needn't be limited to Amir.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 02:47 PM
i'm completely in your court here - the most common blueprint amongst all the championship teams there have even been is in place already - we are just missing either the superstar shooting guard or the superstar center. why fudge with the rest. unselfish but very capable point guard. check. multi-dimensional sf with a great stroke and a top defender. check. outstanding unselfish defending big and hustle guy who gets high percentage baskets. check.

Yea, if we had the opportunity to replace 1 player in the starting 5 with a star to take that next step, I think Jonas would be the key man here to replace/upgrade. This team needs scoring up front and you want to pair that with a great role playing defensive big man. Hopefully Jonas can take the step and be a bigger scoring option up front next year. If we replace Amir, then Jonas wouldn't get the touches and would basically be on the court to fill the role Amir does now (rebound, defend, get baskets here and there, etc).

ink
03-16-2014, 02:48 PM
Yea, if we had the opportunity to replace 1 player in the starting 5 with a star to take that next step, I think Jonas would be the key man here to replace/upgrade. This team needs scoring up front and you want to pair that with a great role playing defensive big man. Hopefully Jonas can take the step and be a bigger scoring option up front next year. If we replace Amir, then Jonas wouldn't get the touches and would basically be on the court to fill the role Amir does now (rebound, defend, get baskets here and there, etc).

Everything really hinges on JVs development.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 02:55 PM
Everything really hinges on JVs development.

Yea, Ross and Jonas' development is key.

If we get a scoring big man or scoring wing this offseason, one or both of their developments will be hindered. At the same time, we need that scoring big man/wing player going into next season to take that next step if this team wants to have better results next year. Best care scenario, they develop to the point we need them to by next year to have increased success. Otherwise, their development or the team's success will suffer.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 02:57 PM
if i thought scoring was 50% of the game maybe i'd agree. wow. it's much much smaller than that. no wonder we don't see eye to eye.

There's only two sides to the ball. You're either trying to score it, or trying to defend it. That's what I mean by 50%. There's no keeping the ball from your opponent like football. There's no special teams like football or hockey. Yes, other things are very important, like drawing charges, setting screens, etc, etc. But it boils down to as a team, you are either trying to score or trying to defend.

Are you trying to tell me that we would not be a better team with Noah as our starting PF than Amir? Cause that's what it seems like.

mike_noodles
03-16-2014, 02:59 PM
Yea, Ross and Jonas' development is key.

If we get a scoring big man or scoring wing this offseason, one or both of their developments will be hindered. At the same time, we need that scoring big man/wing player going into next season to take that next step if this team wants to have better results next year. Best care scenario, they develop to the point we need them to by next year to have increased success. Otherwise, their development or the team's success will suffer.

****, for all we know, Masai may decide to blow it up and tank for Okafor next year.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-16-2014, 03:00 PM
****, for all we know, Masai may decide to blow it up and tank for Okafor next year.

I wouldn't blame him. Clean slate would be good.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 03:21 PM
There's only two sides to the ball. You're either trying to score it, or trying to defend it. That's what I mean by 50%. There's no keeping the ball from your opponent like football. There's no special teams like football or hockey. Yes, other things are very important, like drawing charges, setting screens, etc, etc. But it boils down to as a team, you are either trying to score or trying to defend.

Are you trying to tell me that we would not be a better team with Noah as our starting PF than Amir? Cause that's what it seems like.
Noah is about the only guy i can think of that would represent a clear upgrade without changing the blueprint for this team. so no i'm not saying that. But the difference between Noah and Amir isn't as big as most people think.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 03:25 PM
1/3 of the league is within a superstar of contending. We're in that middle pack. And that unselfishness needn't be limited to Amir.

not really. unless we are talking about a James/Durant kind of superstar. those kind of players would turn anyone into a winner. and most of those teams would be adding to the current team. i'm talking about upgrading a pretty darn good player in Derozan. this team isn't far away if Lowry stays. but they might be stuck trying to figure out how to turn one of Derozan or Valanciunas into that piece.

ink
03-16-2014, 03:36 PM
not really. unless we are talking about a James/Durant kind of superstar. those kind of players would turn anyone into a winner. and most of those teams would be adding to the current team. i'm talking about upgrading a pretty darn good player in Derozan. this team isn't far away if Lowry stays. but they might be stuck trying to figure out how to turn one of Derozan or Valanciunas into that piece.

IMO that's the predicament right there. Adding an elite PF is buying time for those two to develop, and giving us the inside dominance we need to succeed.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 04:36 PM
IMO that's the predicament right there. Adding an elite PF is buying time for those two to develop, and giving us the inside dominance we need to succeed.

yeah and i don't get that. the Raptors are top 10 at both ends of the court right now. they rely on the play of their wings because that's the makeup of the team. not sure why people would want to upset the applecart when the applecart is functioning awfully well right now.

ink
03-16-2014, 04:52 PM
yeah and i don't get that. the Raptors are top 10 at both ends of the court right now. they rely on the play of their wings because that's the makeup of the team. not sure why people would want to upset the applecart when the applecart is functioning awfully well right now.

The thread is about Ujiri's #1 objective, so people are talking about how to improve the team. This team is good but still gets beaten by other ok teams like PHX and BK. We're not there yet.

albertajaysfan
03-16-2014, 05:03 PM
Personally if I was going to look to improve on one of our starters I would look for a SF. Eitheru se Derozan to get that player or have him be the 6th man.

A bench that includes Patterson, Derozan and Vasquez could be lethal.

I would love for it to happen this off season but something tells me we aren't going to see much until the 2015 off season. We will have a good amount of cap space with Amir being the only core player needing a new contract. No more wasted cap space deals like Fields, Salmons and Hayes. (the last two players while they are useful take up to much of our cap space at this stage in the team's development.)

Jonas still needs time to develop.

I am personally hoping for minimal moves this summer or a total revamp. Leaving us with only Val, Ross and draft picks to build around. I think the playoffs will ultimately decide which one I prefer.

ink
03-16-2014, 05:11 PM
Personally if I was going to look to improve on one of our starters I would look for a SF. Eitheru se Derozan to get that player or have him be the 6th man.

A bench that includes Patterson, Derozan and Vasquez could be lethal.

I would love for it to happen this off season but something tells me we aren't going to see much until the 2015 off season. We will have a good amount of cap space with Amir being the only core player needing a new contract. No more wasted cap space deals like Fields, Salmons and Hayes. (the last two players while they are useful take up to much of our cap space at this stage in the team's development.)

Jonas still needs time to develop.

I am personally hoping for minimal moves this summer or a total revamp. Leaving us with only Val, Ross and draft picks to build around. I think the playoffs will ultimately decide which one I prefer.

Since we drafted Ross I thought we might eventually trade DD and I'm still fine with that possibility.

NBA_Starter
03-16-2014, 08:15 PM
He would fit in with the current players nicely as long as the contract numbers are right.

albertajaysfan
03-17-2014, 09:14 PM
Since we drafted Ross I thought we might eventually trade DD and I'm still fine with that possibility.

Likewise. It makes so much sense. Jrue Holiday kind of trade is one that comes to mind.

gwrighter
03-18-2014, 10:12 AM
I figure that if we don't bring Lowry back Derozan's not going to like that very much.

B2B
03-18-2014, 11:09 AM
I figure that if we don't bring Lowry back Derozan's not going to like that very much.

If they fail to bring back Lowry, I would expect Derozan traded & a potential tank scenario, so it would not matter if he likes it or not.

If they are able to retain Lowry, they could then think forward.

ink
03-18-2014, 11:37 AM
If they fail to bring back Lowry, I would expect Derozan traded & a potential tank scenario, so it would not matter if he likes it or not.

If they are able to retain Lowry, they could then think forward.

I agree, with the caveat that if they do retain Lowry, I'd still be fine with DD being moved. Not that I don't like him, but for what he could bring back.

pebloemer
03-18-2014, 11:37 AM
If they fail to bring back Lowry, I would expect Derozan traded & a potential tank scenario, so it would not matter if he likes it or not.

If they are able to retain Lowry, they could then think forward.

That's where my thoughts are at as well. I'm not sure whether Ujiri thinks this way, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see DeRozan traded if Lowry doesn't resign. I expect Amir to also be in trade discussions if we are tearing down.

I Rock Shaqs
03-18-2014, 11:41 AM
Other than Trevor Ariza or Kris Humphries don't really care about anybody else

3Blueforyou
03-18-2014, 12:24 PM
Just some food for thought with everyone talking on the teams bigs. When looking at big scoring, we are roughly 5-12 pts per game below what I think many would consider elite teams or teams that are built from inside out (pacers, hawks(including horford), spurs, griz, clips, blazers). Also looking at % of our bigs we are right on par with these teams.

What I am asking looking at these values, could Val's progression and hypothetically signing someone like Kaman to replace Hayes make up this value. Maybe even make us one of the top producing interior teams? With the obvious being that more shots are given to these players, instead of our wings.

B2B
03-18-2014, 12:29 PM
That's where my thoughts are at as well. I'm not sure whether Ujiri thinks this way, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see DeRozan traded if Lowry doesn't resign. I expect Amir to also be in trade discussions if we are tearing down.

Amir is one of those players that have more court value than trade value, it's possible he could be traded in this scenario if their is a good deal on table. Anything less than an overpayment I would prefer to keep him as he's a glue type player that could benefit/influence the incoming young players.

pebloemer
03-18-2014, 01:13 PM
Amir is one of those players that have more court value than trade value, it's possible he could be traded in this scenario if their is a good deal on table. Anything less than an overpayment I would prefer to keep him as he's a glue type player that could benefit/influence the incoming young players.

I would prefer to keep Amir in any scenario. I'm just operating under the assumption that if they decide to tear it down, they have decided they don't want to win games for a couple years. Keeping Amir is counterproductive to that.

B2B
03-18-2014, 02:16 PM
I would prefer to keep Amir in any scenario. I'm just operating under the assumption that if they decide to tear it down, they have decided they don't want to win games for a couple years. Keeping Amir is counterproductive to that.

Philly kept Young (their version of Amir) & are about to set a record in losses.

Jamiecballer
03-18-2014, 08:29 PM
Just some food for thought with everyone talking on the teams bigs. When looking at big scoring, we are roughly 5-12 pts per game below what I think many would consider elite teams or teams that are built from inside out (pacers, hawks(including horford), spurs, griz, clips, blazers). Also looking at % of our bigs we are right on par with these teams.

What I am asking looking at these values, could Val's progression and hypothetically signing someone like Kaman to replace Hayes make up this value. Maybe even make us one of the top producing interior teams? With the obvious being that more shots are given to these players, instead of our wings.

I would have liked to add Kaman but that ship sailed. I'm not concerned about the amount of offense we are getting from our bigs. Valanciunas has a pretty big ceiling offensively he just needs time and reps to come into his own.

we've got an all-star backcourt and one of the best defensive teams in the game. our reserves could get a bit better at just about every position but what we lack is a superstar and no amount of shuffling the deck is going to fix that.

Glenfidish
03-18-2014, 10:46 PM
Since we drafted Ross I thought we might eventually trade DD and I'm still fine with that possibility.

Part of me feels the same way to having seen dd at critical parts of the game make dumb mistakes. But then I take a breath and take a step back and figure he needs another year or so. I guess part of growing pains.. The one thing I will say is lowry is the undisputed leader of this team. I always thought dd would become it but has not ceased it yet IMHO.

NBA_Starter
03-18-2014, 10:59 PM
Ujiri obviously already knows the guy, so I trust his plan here.

Raps Insider 12
03-18-2014, 11:06 PM
What a life of Ujiri, after the deadline...sits back and allow the chips to fall into place, while getting the big bucks.

I can't wait the moves he'll do on draft night and free agency. Putting a full stamp of his name on this team.

Eagles4Lyfe
03-19-2014, 04:54 PM
A perfect PF I'd target for this team is Larry Sanders. His contracts reasonable and atleast he's already locked up and people might consider him a headcase and a problem, but with other young guys and on a solid team I think he'd be fine.

We can really use his presence down low. I'd offer them Amir as the starting point.

Eagles4Lyfe
03-19-2014, 04:56 PM
What a life of Ujiri, after the deadline...sits back and allow the chips to fall into place, while getting the big bucks.

I can't wait the moves he'll do on draft night and free agency. Putting a full stamp of his name on this team.
This is the line of thinking that always gets people so disappointed.

Lets just proceed with caution.
His biggest this off season and people won't agree with me, should be getting a better coach. Our record is an illusion and doesn't portray how crap Casey really is.

gwrighter
03-19-2014, 05:05 PM
This is the line of thinking that always gets people so disappointed.

Lets just proceed with caution.
His biggest this off season and people won't agree with me, should be getting a better coach. Our record is an illusion and doesn't portray how crap Casey really is.

I wonder if we could pry Thibs away from Chicago.

Eagles4Lyfe
03-19-2014, 05:18 PM
I wonder if we could pry Thibs away from Chicago.

I doubt he'd go and I hope he doesn't go for someone like Karl.

I'd look at the NCAA ranks, someone like Shake Smart or Fred Hoiberg would be great gets.

deaner
03-19-2014, 06:13 PM
I wonder if we could pry Thibs away from Chicago.

Both Tibs and Calipari are rep'd by CAA. Leiweke has done some big deals in the past with CAA. I'm trying to watch Calipari very closely for the next bit.

gwrighter
03-19-2014, 06:19 PM
I doubt he'd go and I hope he doesn't go for someone like Karl.

I'd look at the NCAA ranks, someone like Shake Smart or Fred Hoiberg would be great gets.

Karl would be a step above Casey, that is for sure.

gwrighter
03-19-2014, 06:22 PM
Both Tibs and Calipari are rep'd by CAA. Leiweke has done some big deals in the past with CAA. I'm trying to watch Calipari very closely for the next bit.

Interesting. If Masai decides to clear the house and add more talent via the draft I could see Calipari being a target. Assuming Lowry re-signs I would love to have Thibs come and coach this squad.

Freakazoid
03-19-2014, 08:34 PM
lol...Calipari...are you guys serious? He's a recruiter, not a coach.

deaner
03-19-2014, 09:26 PM
lol...Calipari...are you guys serious? He's a recruiter, not a coach.

I saw an interview with him a while ago. He definitely left the door open to leave Next year. He was thinking big picture and legacy in the interview.

I'm not convinced he's a good target, but I'm watching and researching.

If Masai makes a move... I doubt he goes old school.

Freakazoid
03-20-2014, 12:03 AM
I saw an interview with him a while ago. He definitely left the door open to leave Next year. He was thinking big picture and legacy in the interview.

I'm not convinced he's a good target, but I'm watching and researching.

If Masai makes a move... I doubt he goes old school.

He gets routinely out coached by other mediocre coaches, has made the same mistakes for the past decade and fails to own up to his mistakes. If we're going to chase after a NCAA coach, I would rather he pursue Billy Donovan but he's under contract until 2016.

Sanyo
03-20-2014, 11:20 AM
Considering the money they spent on a 2nd rate team like Toronto FC I think if Leiweke is serious about this team's goodwill in the long term he has to go into luxury tax next year to get someone like Hawes or Gortat. Lowry, P Pat and Vasquez will likely see bumps in salary (well Lowry for sure). Salmons comes off the books but you need to replace him (or bring him back for $3.5-$4 mil).

Only reason being is I highly doubt anyone takes Hayes or fields off the Raps and you would likely need to take another bad deal back. So you just have to take the $13 mil hit with these two next year knowing they come off the books in one year.

Raps need to spend. They need another big man for sure. Johnson, Val, Gortat/Hawes, P Pat and Hans is a solid 5. Hayes is your backup if one or two go down during the season. Pretty deep front court. Need another decent bench scorer and I think the Raps can hold their own with almost any team.

Bob_at_york
03-20-2014, 11:24 AM
Considering the money they spent on a 2nd rate team like Toronto FC I think if Leiweke is serious about this team's goodwill in the long term he has to go into luxury tax next year to get someone like Hawes or Gortat. Lowry, P Pat and Vasquez will likely see bumps in salary (well Lowry for sure). Salmons comes off the books but you need to replace him (or bring him back for $3.5-$4 mil).

Only reason being is I highly doubt anyone takes Hayes or fields off the Raps and you would likely need to take another bad deal back. So you just have to take the $13 mil hit with these two next year knowing they come off the books in one year.

Raps need to spend. They need another big man for sure. Johnson, Val, Gortat/Hawes, P Pat and Hans is a solid 5. Hayes is your backup if one or two go down during the season. Pretty deep front court. Need another decent bench scorer and I think the Raps can hold their own with almost any team.

If they plan on going into the luxury tax neighbourhood than they are probably trading Hayes and Fields for a long-term contract.

Tmath
03-20-2014, 01:07 PM
2014/2015 offseason:

DeMar DeRozan - $9,500,000
John Salmons - $7,000,000 (Only $1,000,000 guaranteed if waived by june 30th 2014)
Amir Johnson - $7,000,000 ($5,000,000 guaranteed)
Landry Fields - $6,250,000
Chuck Hayes - $5,958,750
Steve Novak - $3,445,947
Jonas Valanciunas - $3,678,360
Tyler Hansbrough - $3,326,235 ($1,000,000 guaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by june 29th)
Marcus Camby - $646,609 (Was bought out for $2,000,000, $646,609 is what remains against the cap)
Terrence Ross - $2,793,960
Julyan Stone - 947,907 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 7th 2014)
Dwight Buycks - 816,482 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 22nd)

Free Agents

Kyle Lowry
Patrick Patterson
Greivis Vazquez
Nando De Colo
----------------------------------------------------

IMO, Salmons is guaranteed to be waived. It just doesn't make sense to pay him $7,000,000 next season when he can be bought out for $1,000,000.

I doubt Amir gets waived. He is too important to the team, and his buyout is $5,000,000. He is worth the other $2,000,000 we will be paying him.

We will likely keep Hansbrough. He is well worth the contract.

Buycks and Stone will likely be waived. Although, I could see us hanging on to Buycks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we will likely have around $43,000,000 under contract. The NBA salary cap is Just under 59 million.

We own our free agents bird rights, so from my understanding, we can go over the cap to sign our own players.

Bob_at_york
03-20-2014, 01:16 PM
2014/2015 offseason:

DeMar DeRozan - $9,500,000
John Salmons - $7,000,000 (Only $1,000,000 guaranteed if waived by june 30th 2014)
Amir Johnson - $7,000,000 ($5,000,000 guaranteed)
Landry Fields - $6,250,000
Chuck Hayes - $5,958,750
Steve Novak - $3,445,947
Jonas Valanciunas - $3,678,360
Tyler Hansbrough - $3,326,235 ($1,000,000 guaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by june 29th)
Marcus Camby - $646,609 (Was bought out for $2,000,000, $646,609 is what remains against the cap)
Terrence Ross - $2,793,960
Julyan Stone - 947,907 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 7th 2014)
Dwight Buycks - 816,482 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 22nd)

Free Agents

Kyle Lowry
Patrick Patterson
Greivis Vazquez
Nando De Colo
----------------------------------------------------

IMO, Salmons is guaranteed to be waived. It just doesn't make sense to pay him $7,000,000 next season when he can be bought out for $1,000,000.

I doubt Amir gets waived. He is too important to the team, and his buyout is $5,000,000. He is worth the other $2,000,000 we will be paying him.

We will likely keep Hansbrough. He is well worth the contract.

Buycks and Stone will likely be waived. Although, I could see us hanging on to Buycks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we will likely have around $43,000,000 under contract. The NBA salary cap is Just under 59 million.

We own our free agents bird rights, so from my understanding, we can go over the cap to sign our own players.

Looks about right except you don't list the cap holds that our free agents have.

Sanyo
03-20-2014, 01:19 PM
If they plan on going into the luxury tax neighbourhood than they are probably trading Hayes and Fields for a long-term contract.

And if it means getting a player who can contribute then sure. Even not, they can bite the dust for one year on fields and hayes.

pebloemer
03-20-2014, 01:23 PM
2014/2015 offseason:

DeMar DeRozan - $9,500,000
John Salmons - $7,000,000 (Only $1,000,000 guaranteed if waived by june 30th 2014)
Amir Johnson - $7,000,000 ($5,000,000 guaranteed)
Landry Fields - $6,250,000
Chuck Hayes - $5,958,750
Steve Novak - $3,445,947
Jonas Valanciunas - $3,678,360
Tyler Hansbrough - $3,326,235 ($1,000,000 guaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by june 29th)
Marcus Camby - $646,609 (Was bought out for $2,000,000, $646,609 is what remains against the cap)
Terrence Ross - $2,793,960
Julyan Stone - 947,907 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 7th 2014)
Dwight Buycks - 816,482 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 22nd)

Free Agents

Kyle Lowry
Patrick Patterson
Greivis Vazquez
Nando De Colo
----------------------------------------------------

IMO, Salmons is guaranteed to be waived. It just doesn't make sense to pay him $7,000,000 next season when he can be bought out for $1,000,000.

I doubt Amir gets waived. He is too important to the team, and his buyout is $5,000,000. He is worth the other $2,000,000 we will be paying him.

We will likely keep Hansbrough. He is well worth the contract.

Buycks and Stone will likely be waived. Although, I could see us hanging on to Buycks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we will likely have around $43,000,000 under contract. The NBA salary cap is Just under 59 million.

We own our free agents bird rights, so from my understanding, we can go over the cap to sign our own players.

The only reason they would pick up Salmons IMO is if they think they could use a large expiring contract sometime during the season to make a major move - but I think that is very unlikely.

I could see Hansbrough getting released if Ujiri wants to add more size in the front court.

We also have a rookie scale committed (probably for 1-1.5 million) for whomever we draft.

I think it is reasonable to expect Ujiri to try and retain Lowry, Patterson and Vasquez, but whether he is successful (especially with Lowry and Patterson), will make it an interesting off-season to follow. If we do we almost certainly will have no cap space, just an MLE to work with.

Sanyo
03-20-2014, 01:24 PM
2014/2015 offseason:

DeMar DeRozan - $9,500,000
John Salmons - $7,000,000 (Only $1,000,000 guaranteed if waived by june 30th 2014)
Amir Johnson - $7,000,000 ($5,000,000 guaranteed)
Landry Fields - $6,250,000
Chuck Hayes - $5,958,750
Steve Novak - $3,445,947
Jonas Valanciunas - $3,678,360
Tyler Hansbrough - $3,326,235 ($1,000,000 guaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by june 29th)
Marcus Camby - $646,609 (Was bought out for $2,000,000, $646,609 is what remains against the cap)
Terrence Ross - $2,793,960
Julyan Stone - 947,907 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 7th 2014)
Dwight Buycks - 816,482 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 22nd)

Free Agents

Kyle Lowry
Patrick Patterson
Greivis Vazquez
Nando De Colo
----------------------------------------------------

IMO, Salmons is guaranteed to be waived. It just doesn't make sense to pay him $7,000,000 next season when he can be bought out for $1,000,000.

I doubt Amir gets waived. He is too important to the team, and his buyout is $5,000,000. He is worth the other $2,000,000 we will be paying him.

We will likely keep Hansbrough. He is well worth the contract.

Buycks and Stone will likely be waived. Although, I could see us hanging on to Buycks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we will likely have around $43,000,000 under contract. The NBA salary cap is Just under 59 million.

We own our free agents bird rights, so from my understanding, we can go over the cap to sign our own players.

Yep but Lowry will likely eat about $12 mil (lets say on the high side), Pat about $5 mil and Vasquez around the same. $22 mil + $42 mil = $62 mil.

But I guess the issue will be if you want to get a free agent (either a centre or the wing, though I prefer a centre).

Anyways Im sure MU will do his best to build this team right and I'm sure Leiweke will allow the wallet to open a bit if it means the Raps can bid on a strong player who can help this team win. I am quite excited actually cause I think they will open the wallet so I like this team's future.

Tmath
03-20-2014, 01:53 PM
Yep but Lowry will likely eat about $12 mil (lets say on the high side), Pat about $5 mil and Vasquez around the same. $22 mil + $42 mil = $62 mil.

But I guess the issue will be if you want to get a free agent (either a centre or the wing, though I prefer a centre).

Anyways Im sure MU will do his best to build this team right and I'm sure Leiweke will allow the wallet to open a bit if it means the Raps can bid on a strong player who can help this team win. I am quite excited actually cause I think they will open the wallet so I like this team's future.

Thats ok. TL likes to spend money. If its for the right pieces, im sure he wont mind going right up to the luxury or over.

Tmath
03-20-2014, 01:57 PM
We can spend up to $71.748 million without going over the luxury tax.

albertajaysfan
03-20-2014, 02:07 PM
Signing players once you are over the salary isn't that easy. Which is why I foresee both Salmons and Hansbrough having their options picked up if the FO has plans to even go close to the luxury tax. Gives us more expiring salaries to use to make a major trade.

gwrighter
03-20-2014, 02:09 PM
So do we have max level space?

albertajaysfan
03-20-2014, 02:17 PM
So do we have max level space?

Not on a free agent.

Edit: Unless we renounce all bird rights and waive Salmons and Hansbrough. Although this just made me think of something regarding the rules for renouncing bird rights. Off to do some research.

gwrighter
03-20-2014, 02:18 PM
Not on a free agent.

So it would have to be by sign & trade.

deaner
03-20-2014, 03:00 PM
2014/2015 offseason:

DeMar DeRozan - $9,500,000
John Salmons - $7,000,000 (Only $1,000,000 guaranteed if waived by june 30th 2014)
Amir Johnson - $7,000,000 ($5,000,000 guaranteed)
Landry Fields - $6,250,000
Chuck Hayes - $5,958,750
Steve Novak - $3,445,947
Jonas Valanciunas - $3,678,360
Tyler Hansbrough - $3,326,235 ($1,000,000 guaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by june 29th)
Marcus Camby - $646,609 (Was bought out for $2,000,000, $646,609 is what remains against the cap)
Terrence Ross - $2,793,960
Julyan Stone - 947,907 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 7th 2014)
Dwight Buycks - 816,482 (Fully unguaranteed, becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by July 22nd)

Free Agents

Kyle Lowry
Patrick Patterson
Greivis Vazquez
Nando De Colo
----------------------------------------------------

IMO, Salmons is guaranteed to be waived. It just doesn't make sense to pay him $7,000,000 next season when he can be bought out for $1,000,000.

I doubt Amir gets waived. He is too important to the team, and his buyout is $5,000,000. He is worth the other $2,000,000 we will be paying him.

We will likely keep Hansbrough. He is well worth the contract.

Buycks and Stone will likely be waived. Although, I could see us hanging on to Buycks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we will likely have around $43,000,000 under contract. The NBA salary cap is Just under 59 million.

We own our free agents bird rights, so from my understanding, we can go over the cap to sign our own players.

In the case of Salmons, it's far more likely to trade that contract and take on some good salary IMO..

ink
03-20-2014, 03:00 PM
Yep but Lowry will likely eat about $12 mil (lets say on the high side), Pat about $5 mil and Vasquez around the same. $22 mil + $42 mil = $62 mil.

Note, that 62M (into luxury) gets us the same roster as we have now.

Tmath
03-20-2014, 03:55 PM
Note, that 62M (into luxury) gets us the same roster as we have now.

Note. We have a lot of salary coming off the books in 2015/2016. So if we improve with the current roster through chemistry and young players improving, we can potentially land a star player (Durant) and add him to the current core.

Tmath
03-20-2014, 03:58 PM
Note, that 62M (into luxury) gets us the same roster as we have now.

The new tax threshold set at $71.748 million

gwrighter
03-20-2014, 04:01 PM
If Lowry continues this level of play into next season assuming we re-sign him then we could potentially have 2 All-stars on roster. That type of star power definitely has to intrigue superstars in this league.

pebloemer
03-20-2014, 04:12 PM
If Lowry continues this level of play into next season assuming we re-sign him then we could potentially have 2 All-stars on roster. That type of star power definitely has to intrigue superstars in this league.

In the summer of 2015 we could feasibly have Valanciunas, Patterson, Lowry, DeRozan, Ross and Novak (plus whomever we draft during that time and maybe even Vasquez) all under contract with room under the cap for a max level contract to add to them. We'd have to deal with Ross and Valanciunas extensions the following year, so ownership would need to make a strong financial commitment to do so, but it is a very intriguing thought.

Raps Insider 12
03-20-2014, 04:13 PM
IMO ways for Raps to get their superstar:

1. By trading a starter and future picks to get in to the top 5 or 6 and pick either of Wiggins/ Embiid/ Parker/ Exum or Randle hoping that any of these guys will turn out to be a transcendent player.

2. Trading two of their starters and future picks for one current superstar then surround this player with role players.

3. Sign one as a FA but ownership has to be committed in possibly paying the lux threshold.

Easy for me to say, tough for Masai to do but feasible.

smith&wesson
03-20-2014, 05:16 PM
If Lowry continues this level of play into next season assuming we re-sign him then we could potentially have 2 All-stars on roster. That type of star power definitely has to intrigue superstars in this league.

Man, Imagine we could land someone like noah ... wowsers that would be so sweet.. this team would be scary. never gonna happen though so im snapping back to reality.

albertajaysfan
03-20-2014, 05:39 PM
In the summer of 2015 we could feasibly have Valanciunas, Patterson, Lowry, DeRozan, Ross and Novak (plus whomever we draft during that time and maybe even Vasquez) all under contract with room under the cap for a max level contract to add to them. We'd have to deal with Ross and Valanciunas extensions the following year, so ownership would need to make a strong financial commitment to do so, but it is a very intriguing thought.

I think this is the safe back up plan that Masai has. If he can accelerate it happening through trades he will. I doubt Vasquez gets signed long term, 2 year deal seems likely as I doubt any teams would be willing to go beyond that for him.

smith&wesson
03-20-2014, 05:43 PM
I think this is the safe back up plan that Masai has. If he can accelerate it happening through trades he will. I doubt Vasquez gets signed long term, 2 year deal seems likely as I doubt any teams would be willing to go beyond that for him.

+1

NBA_Starter
03-20-2014, 10:14 PM
Faried is a Beast!

Sanyo
03-20-2014, 11:10 PM
Gasol is another guy the Raps can obtain as a "rental" for one or two years. He'll likely fetish around $13 mil/season... not sure of their cap space, but a gritty vet who can provide you valuable experience and still can go. Injuries a concern but thats expected of a 33 year old. But I think he's still got a few years left in him and maybe a guy who wouldn't mind coming to Toronto. He's also going to play less minutes and could really help to develop J Val. Probably will play around 30 minutes at C and PF. I would rather have Gasol over P Pat to be honest if they have a realistic chance. Amir would then go back to being the 6th guy.

albertajaysfan
03-20-2014, 11:15 PM
Gasol is another guy the Raps can obtain as a "rental" for one or two years. He'll likely fetish around $13 mil/season... not sure of their cap space, but a gritty vet who can provide you valuable experience and still can go. Injuries a concern but thats expected of a 33 year old. But I think he's still got a few years left in him and maybe a guy who wouldn't mind coming to Toronto. He's also going to play less minutes and could really help to develop J Val. Probably will play around 30 minutes at C and PF. I would rather have Gasol over P Pat to be honest if they have a realistic chance.

Best typo I have seen in awhile. :laugh:

Great idea unfortunately we don't have the cap space.

Sanyo
03-20-2014, 11:16 PM
Best typo I have seen in awhile. :laugh:

Great idea unfortunately we don't have the cap space.

OOPS...well you get the idea ;)

MoneyBall20
03-20-2014, 11:17 PM
Faried is a Beast!


I second that,didn't know the player that much,until T Ross dunked on his a@@. ;)

Sanyo
03-20-2014, 11:22 PM
Best typo I have seen in awhile. :laugh:

Great idea unfortunately we don't have the cap space.

Well if you get rid of P Pat and Salmons it saves you about $12 mil which can allow you to sign Gasol. And then get someone like Shannon Brown to replace Salmons at a much cheaper cost. . Hmm I mean these are all things that need to be considered but another suggestion.

You can go a million ways I guess. It all depends on what is realistic and what's not, but this would be a pretty good plan.

Sanyo
03-20-2014, 11:30 PM
Kevin Love
for
J Val, Fields, Novak and 1st rounder in 2016 and 2nd rounder in 2015 with option for 1st rounder if pick above say... 15th or something?

Lowry, Demar, Ross, Amir, Love

P Pat as 6th man. Vasquez, Shannon Brown, Hans, centre you get in 2014 draft and take your pick.

But with Love you have a really tight rotation since he's going to play 35 mins+. You may only need P Pat, Vasquez and Shannon brown each night.

North Yorker
03-20-2014, 11:31 PM
Well if you get rid of P Pat and Salmons it saves you about $12 mil which can allow you to sign Gasol. And then get someone like Shannon Brown to replace Salmons at a much cheaper cost. . Hmm I mean these are all things that need to be considered but another suggestion.

You can go a million ways I guess. It all depends on what is realistic and what's not, but this would be a pretty good plan.

You would most likely have to get rid of Patt, Salmons, and Hans/Vasquez if you plan on paying Lowry+ Gasol a combined $23-25M next year. Don't really see the point.

The only way Masai can make a significant FA addition next year that won't gut the team's depth is to get rid of 2 of Fields/Novak/Hayes, which would require packaging them with picks/assets.

pebloemer
03-21-2014, 09:05 AM
Well if you get rid of P Pat and Salmons it saves you about $12 mil which can allow you to sign Gasol. And then get someone like Shannon Brown to replace Salmons at a much cheaper cost. . Hmm I mean these are all things that need to be considered but another suggestion.

You can go a million ways I guess. It all depends on what is realistic and what's not, but this would be a pretty good plan.

I'm sorry, I see this logic all the time and it frustrates me to no end, so I have to respond to it. First off, Patterson makes 3 million and Salmons salary for next year is 7 million, and guaranteed for 1 million if we release him. So the savings would be 9 million, not 12 million.

Second, money saved on releasing players that you currently have DOESN"T equal money you have available to spend in free agency. Most NBA teams operate above the cap to begin with, so salary coming off the books rarely gives them equal cap space to use beneath the cap in return. ie. If Team A is 7 million over the cap and has 12 million come off in salary at season's end, it only puts them 5 million below the cap, not 12 million.

Third, players often receive incremental raises on their deals which affect this number.

Fourth, and I don't know if you are assuming we resign Lowry on top of getting Gasol, but Lowry's salary, if retained will likely double, if not more.

Right now, IF WE RELEASE Amir Johnson, Tyler Hansbrough, John Salmons, Greivis Vasquez, Kyle Lowry, Patrick Patterson, Austin Daye, Julian Stone and Dwight Byucks, we will still have just under 40 million in guaranteed contracts. And that doesn't even factor in the rookie scale of our first round pick for next year. So we are really looking at 41.5 guaranteed.

Now take that 41.5 million figure and start adding from there. Keep in mind the cap has hovered around 58-59 million for the past few years. Amir Johnson has 5 million of the 41.5 guaranteed anyways, so it is a no brainer to pay him the full contract of 7 million (only 2 million higher). So now we are at 43.5 million. If we want Hansbrough's option, it is another 2.5 million. If we resign Lowry, we can safely add 10-12 million. If we bring back Vasquez, will that now be another 3-4 million? We are already out of cap space. We can keep Salmons and Patterson and go above the cap because we own their bird rights though.

So even if we let Patterson and Salmons go, it actually won't give us any space at all. Unless of course we want to walk away from Lowry, Vasquez, Amir and Hansbrough as well. Which wouldn't make any sense at all if we want to be competitive.

Bob_at_york
03-21-2014, 10:22 AM
Kevin Love
for
J Val, Fields, Novak and 1st rounder in 2016 and 2nd rounder in 2015 with option for 1st rounder if pick above say... 15th or something?

Lowry, Demar, Ross, Amir, Love

P Pat as 6th man. Vasquez, Shannon Brown, Hans, centre you get in 2014 draft and take your pick.

But with Love you have a really tight rotation since he's going to play 35 mins+. You may only need P Pat, Vasquez and Shannon brown each night.

that is a lot ot give up for a guy who could leave us one year later.

albertajaysfan
03-21-2014, 12:20 PM
I'm sorry, I see this logic all the time and it frustrates me to no end, so I have to respond to it. First off, Patterson makes 3 million and Salmons salary for next year is 7 million, and guaranteed for 1 million if we release him. So the savings would be 9 million, not 12 million.

Second, money saved on releasing players that you currently have DOESN"T equal money you have available to spend in free agency. Most NBA teams operate above the cap to begin with, so salary coming off the books rarely gives them equal cap space to use beneath the cap in return. ie. If Team A is 7 million over the cap and has 12 million come off in salary at season's end, it only puts them 5 million below the cap, not 12 million.

Third, players often receive incremental raises on their deals which affect this number.

Fourth, and I don't know if you are assuming we resign Lowry on top of getting Gasol, but Lowry's salary, if retained will likely double, if not more.

Right now, IF WE RELEASE Amir Johnson, Tyler Hansbrough, John Salmons, Greivis Vasquez, Kyle Lowry, Patrick Patterson, Austin Daye, Julian Stone and Dwight Byucks, we will still have just under 40 million in guaranteed contracts. And that doesn't even factor in the rookie scale of our first round pick for next year. So we are really looking at 41.5 guaranteed.

Now take that 41.5 million figure and start adding from there. Keep in mind the cap has hovered around 58-59 million for the past few years. Amir Johnson has 5 million of the 41.5 guaranteed anyways, so it is a no brainer to pay him the full contract of 7 million (only 2 million higher). So now we are at 43.5 million. If we want Hansbrough's option, it is another 2.5 million. If we resign Lowry, we can safely add 10-12 million. If we bring back Vasquez, will that now be another 3-4 million? We are already out of cap space. We can keep Salmons and Patterson and go above the cap because we own their bird rights though.

So even if we let Patterson and Salmons go, it actually won't give us any space at all. Unless of course we want to walk away from Lowry, Vasquez, Amir and Hansbrough as well. Which wouldn't make any sense at all if we want to be competitive.

Thank you. I see the same logic all the time and it baffles me. Sure the nuances of the NBA salary are complicated. But you explained some basic ideas that can be gleamed from some standard internet searches.

djsunyc
03-21-2014, 01:25 PM
give vasquez the QO - then see if he can get a contract elsewhere. i see no reason to commit to him for 2 years when he can demand at least 4-5 mil a year in salary.

i would be extremely shocked if salmons on this roster as of july 1. even more shocked if he's not dealt by draft night.

albertajaysfan
03-21-2014, 02:37 PM
give vasquez the QO - then see if he can get a contract elsewhere. i see no reason to commit to him for 2 years when he can demand at least 4-5 mil a year in salary.

i would be extremely shocked if salmons on this roster as of july 1. even more shocked if he's not dealt by draft night.

Since I started the Vasquez 2 years thing I will elaborate. I was saying that giving him any more than 2 years is a terrible idea.

In regards to Salmons I see the same thing. I think he could net us an additional draft pick from a team looking to make a salary dump heading into free agency.

smith&wesson
03-21-2014, 03:43 PM
Kevin Love
for
J Val, Fields, Novak and 1st rounder in 2016 and 2nd rounder in 2015 with option for 1st rounder if pick above say... 15th or something?

Lowry, Demar, Ross, Amir, Love

P Pat as 6th man. Vasquez, Shannon Brown, Hans, centre you get in 2014 draft and take your pick.

But with Love you have a really tight rotation since he's going to play 35 mins+. You may only need P Pat, Vasquez and Shannon brown each night.

I watch alot of twolves games, and love is great dont get me wrong. but aside from his rebounding, his D leaves much to be desired.

Love NEEDS to play beside a tyson chandler or andrew bogut type. Amir would not suffice, we would have to get a banger to mound the paint.

I do like the idea of going after love and pairing him with lowry, ross, & dero.. But like I said we would really need to attain a true 5 if were giving up jonas.

smith&wesson
03-21-2014, 03:44 PM
salmons will be waived. we will get other cheaper rotational wings who could fill his role easily.

albertajaysfan
03-21-2014, 04:06 PM
salmons will be waived. we will get other cheaper rotational wings who could fill his role easily.

Considering our cap situation I think that would be a poor choice. Waiving means we can sign someone using the MLE. Keeping means we can....wait for it.....sign someone using the MLE.

3Blueforyou
03-21-2014, 04:22 PM
Just a quick question. We could hypothetically execute a trade after signing 2pat and Vazquez that put us up to the cap, then we could exceed the cap by signing Lowry(bird rights). Is their a particular number in which we can exceed the cap? Or are we only limited by the maximum contracts limitations that Lowry will be limited too.

Say we are 5-6 mill under we can sign Lowry to say a 12mill contract?

Bob_at_york
03-21-2014, 04:26 PM
Just a quick question. We could hypothetically execute a trade after signing 2pat and Vazquez that put us up to the cap, then we could exceed the cap by signing Lowry(bird rights). Is their a particular number in which we can exceed the cap? Or are we only limited by the maximum contracts limitations that Lowry will be limited too.

Say we are 5-6 mill under we can sign Lowry to say a 12mill contract?

Does Lowry's contract have a cap hold?