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View Full Version : Newsflash!! Kobe is the one who didn't want Phil Jackson



Sssmush
03-11-2014, 03:40 AM
Let me decode this for you:

1. Kobe had/has the highest status and the most influential voice in the Lakers franchise, in the eyes of the front office (and at the time in the eyes of Jerry Buss).

2. Kobe never specifically requested or demanded Phil. Publicly he said that he would welcome Phil back, but he also said that he welcomed Dantoni, with an equal level of acceptance and enthusiasm.

3. Kobe has never been in the Magic Johnson circle, and there's been tension between them because of Magic's weird criticism of Kobe and the Lakers (even during the immortal championship years).

4. Most importantly, Phil Jackson sometimes mishandled or under-utilized Kobe's offensive prowess, AND took Shaq's side during the Kobe-Shaq feud, AND slammed the **** out of Kobe in not one but TWO naughty little tell-all books about coaching the Lakers.

Seriously, if you haven't read Phil's books about the Lakers you should do so. Then you will fully understand that Kobe wouldn't be enthusiastic about Phil coaching the Lakers, and in fact it may very well have been Kobe who called the front office on Sunday night and gave them an ultimatum that he wasn't going to to play the rest of his career for Phil Jackson.

And who can blame him? Even during the salad days, Phil Jackson often had Derek Fisher and Sasha Vujacic shooting dozens of jump shots a day while Kobe ran around in circles doing "the Triangle." Yes they won five titles but they very possibly could've won more, at least two and possibly even three more, with a more athletic playmaking point guard, a more athletic aggressive power forward instead of Luke Walton, unleashing Kobe more, etc etc etc etc.

So yeah. Kobe's sidestepped this really effectively, but if push comes to shove and we are real about it, it's gotta be said that Kobe never wanted Phil to return to the Lakers for a third time and so therefore it didn't happen.

Shlumpledink
03-11-2014, 03:50 AM
I'm Kobe Bryant, and I can confirm this

nickdymez
03-11-2014, 03:51 AM
Smh

Jenceman
03-11-2014, 03:55 AM
Let me decode this for you:

1. Kobe had/has the highest status and the most influential voice in the Lakers franchise, in the eyes of the front office (and at the time in the eyes of Jerry Buss).

2. Kobe never specifically requested or demanded Phil. Publicly he said that he would welcome Phil back, but he also said that he welcomed Dantoni, with an equal level of acceptance and enthusiasm.

3. Kobe has never been in the Magic Johnson circle, and there's been tension between them because of Magic's weird criticism of Kobe and the Lakers (even during the immortal championship years).

4. Most importantly, Phil Jackson sometimes mishandled or under-utilized Kobe's offensive prowess, AND took Shaq's side during the Kobe-Shaq feud, AND slammed the **** out of Kobe in not one but TWO naughty little tell-all books about coaching the Lakers.

Seriously, if you haven't read Phil's books about the Lakers you should do so. Then you will fully understand that Kobe wouldn't be enthusiastic about Phil coaching the Lakers, and in fact it may very well have been Kobe who called the front office on Sunday night and gave them an ultimatum that he wasn't going to to play the rest of his career for Phil Jackson.

And who can blame him? Even during the salad days, Phil Jackson often had Derek Fisher and Sasha Vujacic shooting dozens of jump shots a day while Kobe ran around in circles doing "the Triangle." Yes they won five titles but they very possibly could've won more, at least two and possibly even three more, with a more athletic playmaking point guard, a more athletic aggressive power forward instead of Luke Walton, unleashing Kobe more, etc etc etc etc.

So yeah. Kobe's sidestepped this really effectively, but if push comes to shove and we are real about it, it's gotta be said that Kobe never wanted Phil to return to the Lakers for a third time and so therefore it didn't happen.

Mods are we allowed to insult trolls?

DillyDill
03-11-2014, 05:05 AM
No I'll never believe it. Kobe in Phil's system was a match made in heaven, why wouldn't Kobe want it to continue? And on top of it all Kobe has those rings because of Phil and his amazing mentoring-ship.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-11-2014, 05:19 AM
No link, no thread, no cigar

numba1CHANGsta
03-11-2014, 05:22 AM
Phil talked crap about everyone he coached that's just who he is. Kobe could careless and Phil could careless as long as they won championships. Phil didn't come back for health reasons, he wanted control and didn't want to travel for road games. The Buss family wanted a "showtime" team so they went with the D'Antoni route but didn't work out. Stop this Phil vs Kobe crap, Phil would have never came back in 2005 if he really hated Kobe. Blame Jim Buss and Phil's ego.

Sssmush
03-11-2014, 05:31 AM
No I'll never believe it. Kobe in Phil's system was a match made in heaven, why wouldn't Kobe want it to continue? And on top of it all Kobe has those rings because of Phil and his amazing mentoring-ship.

Right. But... it's undeniable how powerful Kobe's influence was last year. Right? I mean Kobe flexed his muscles and Mike Brown was fired after only an unbelievable 5 games.

I think we can all agree that Kobe was instrumental in getting Mike Brown fired.

AND, having watched the desperate Phil-for-coach-or-team-president-of-the-Lakers media campaign for the past two years, I think we can all realize now that Phil was VERY close and just waiting in the wings to coach the Lakers again. Team insiders must've known this more than anyone else.

So... Lakers approach Phil out of due diligence and to appease Jeannie that they are keeping an open mind... Phil overplays his hand just a little bit, requesting some special concessions and a few days to think, and the Lakers take about two seconds to hand the job to Dantoni. Phil Jackson immediately starts publicly complaining, and a whole host of Phil Jackson media type guys (including Magic) immediately start yelling at the top of their lungs that this is the greatest Laker travesty *blah blah blah* etc etc

But KOBE never says one word. He diplomatically says he'd have been happy with Phil, but makes it very clear that he's perfectly happy with Dantoni. He praises Dantoni as an Olympic coach that he knows and respects and as a true offensive wizard. Since then we never hear one word out of Kobe either trashing Dantoni or pining for Phil Jackson. And last season Kobe played some of his best ball ever, playing his heart out for Dantoni and dragging the team out of a real tough slump and into the playoffs despite the toxic and spiteful malingering of Dwight Howard.

So there you have it... when you think about it is so perfectly clear. Kobe never wanted Phil to come back, and very likely just wanted something new, a clean reboot. Phil's vicious tell all books painting Kobe as an immature and insecure egomaniac unwilling to share with Shaq probably didn't help. LoL Phil's tell all books are clear evidence that each time he left he thought he was leaving for good. We all may forget, but how could Kobe trust Phil again, really? Also Kobe has matured to the point where he must see clearly the ways in which he was underutilized in Phil's system.

It's just all right there.

Sssmush
03-11-2014, 05:32 AM
Phil talked crap about everyone he coached that's just who he is. Kobe could careless and Phil could careless as long as they won championships. Phil didn't come back for health reasons, he wanted control and didn't want to travel for road games. The Buss family wanted a "showtime" team so they went with the D'Antoni route but didn't work out. Stop this Phil vs Kobe crap, Phil would have never came back in 2005 if he really hated Kobe. Blame Jim Buss and Phil's ego.

No... you still don't see it. Kobe IS Keyser Sose.

KingstonHawke
03-11-2014, 05:38 AM
A lot of what you said is just factually inaccurate. If it was up to Kobe, Brian Shaw would've already been coaching that team. But young Buss doesn't respect Kobe as much as his daddy did.

Also, Kobe doesn't care about anything but winning. He didn't run Shaq out of town. Shaq tried running Kobe out of town and it backfired. Kobe will play with anybody as long as it helps him. He was trying to recruit Raja Bell at one point, and Raja hates Kobe. Not to mention he recruited Artest and Barnes after almost fighting each of them the seasons prior.

Dwight wanted Phil too. What it seems like (and these are just claims I've heard from people who work for the Lakers but not close enough to the top to know anything really) is that little Buss didn't want Phil because Phil's relationship with his sister. That he felt like Phil would be a headache and constantly demand all sorts of special treatment. And why go through all that when he could get D'Antoni for half the price... and D'Antoni is a coach who had ties with Nash and Kobe.

Little Buss really has run the Lakers into the ground. I'm a Kobe fan first and foremost... but as a businessman. I'd of done everything I could to keep Howard around including hiring Phil and amnestying Kobe.

At the end of the day... ***** Stern. That's all that matters. Kobe should have 7 rings and be considered better than Jordan... but Stern sabotaged it all. I'll never have any respect for him ever after how blatantly he discarded his integrity.

PhillyFaninLA
03-11-2014, 05:43 AM
Ummmm no, this is just not true.

Kobe didn't get Phil fired.....this guy did to good of a job and got me to many rings, the bums gotta go.

slashsnake
03-11-2014, 06:48 AM
A lot of what you said is just factually inaccurate. If it was up to Kobe, Brian Shaw would've already been coaching that team. But young Buss doesn't respect Kobe as much as his daddy did.

Also, Kobe doesn't care about anything but winning. He didn't run Shaq out of town. Shaq tried running Kobe out of town and it backfired. Kobe will play with anybody as long as it helps him. He was trying to recruit Raja Bell at one point, and Raja hates Kobe. Not to mention he recruited Artest and Barnes after almost fighting each of them the seasons prior.



Nice point at the begining. Shaw would be there if Kobe had his way. I would say though that he did run Shaq out of town.

2-ONE-5
03-11-2014, 09:53 AM
i didnt know this was such a pressing issue that anyone cares about a few years later? this dude is one crazy homer

MonroeFAN
03-11-2014, 10:12 AM
No one gives a **** about the Lakers.

ghettosean
03-11-2014, 10:21 AM
Let me decode this for you:

1. Kobe had/has the highest status and the most influential voice in the Lakers franchise, in the eyes of the front office (and at the time in the eyes of Jerry Buss).

2. Kobe never specifically requested or demanded Phil. Publicly he said that he would welcome Phil back, but he also said that he welcomed Dantoni, with an equal level of acceptance and enthusiasm.

3. Kobe has never been in the Magic Johnson circle, and there's been tension between them because of Magic's weird criticism of Kobe and the Lakers (even during the immortal championship years).

4. Most importantly, Phil Jackson sometimes mishandled or under-utilized Kobe's offensive prowess, AND took Shaq's side during the Kobe-Shaq feud, AND slammed the **** out of Kobe in not one but TWO naughty little tell-all books about coaching the Lakers.

Seriously, if you haven't read Phil's books about the Lakers you should do so. Then you will fully understand that Kobe wouldn't be enthusiastic about Phil coaching the Lakers, and in fact it may very well have been Kobe who called the front office on Sunday night and gave them an ultimatum that he wasn't going to to play the rest of his career for Phil Jackson.

And who can blame him? Even during the salad days, Phil Jackson often had Derek Fisher and Sasha Vujacic shooting dozens of jump shots a day while Kobe ran around in circles doing "the Triangle." Yes they won five titles but they very possibly could've won more, at least two and possibly even three more, with a more athletic playmaking point guard, a more athletic aggressive power forward instead of Luke Walton, unleashing Kobe more, etc etc etc etc.

So yeah. Kobe's sidestepped this really effectively, but if push comes to shove and we are real about it, it's gotta be said that Kobe never wanted Phil to return to the Lakers for a third time and so therefore it didn't happen.

Wow that's a news breaking story Chris Brousard!

Gasol and Dwight wanted him 100% and I have no reason to see the only coach that got Kobe rings being rejected by him.

I'm sure D12 or someone would have leaked that Kobe didn't want him by now if this was true.

pebloemer
03-11-2014, 10:36 AM
A newsflash and a theory are very different things. Please accurately label your threads.

beasted86
03-11-2014, 01:02 PM
The hell is this newsflash b.s.? There is no news here just opinion. Mod needs to change title.

MTar786
03-11-2014, 03:27 PM
lol kobe not wanting phil is laughable

Bruno
03-11-2014, 03:44 PM
...i award you no points...

smith&wesson
03-11-2014, 04:00 PM
isnt phill banging the owners daughter ? yeah, maybe that has something to do with it :shrug:

Doubt kobe cares who the coach is when they even hired mike brown. does kobe need to be coached in this stage of his career really ? hes like an on the floor coach anyways. not like any coach can convince him to quit chucking, so whats the diff.

TheIlladelph16
03-11-2014, 04:07 PM
...i award you no points...

Mr. Sssmush, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Avenged
03-11-2014, 04:42 PM
...i award you no points...

Mr. Sssmush, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

^^^ that

Tony_Starks
03-11-2014, 04:42 PM
There should be a psd version of Shaqtin a fool for threads like this. Maybe Postin-a-fool....

Goose17
03-11-2014, 05:42 PM
Push comes to shove. If you're choose between Phil and Kobe? You let Kobe walk, he's finished anyway.

Sssmush
03-11-2014, 07:47 PM
Mr. Sssmush, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Ask yourself: Have you ever heard Kobe say that hiring D'Antoni, and not hiring Phil Jackson, was a mistake?

And let's not forget that Kobe either comes back right next year, or he medically retires. Much better if he comes back right, but the point is that the risk factor for the Lakers is zero.

If you really think about it, a Phil Jackson triangle team would have an extremely tough time in today's NBA. I mean, dream scenario, let's say you had Lebron at forward with Dwight Howard at center and Kyrie at point guard, running the hardcore Triangle and coached by Phil Jackson. In today's NBA, and unless that squad as a whole is playing incredible defense, that is no guarantee of a championship. They're just not going to score enough points against a team that rocks a lot of 3s and plays a fast pace. Don't forget that in Miami Lebron is backed up by a squad of incredible three point shooters and has Wade to accelerate the pace and spread the offense out all over the place. As well as Bosh who is spreads the floor incredibly well for a power forward.

Listen to me now and believe me later: Dantoni's system is the future of the NBA, and that is why so many teams copy it now. But we got the actual guy, the inventor of the system, the true historical Mr. Pringles of the NBA. We don't even know what kind of secret **** this Pringles cat is working on in his underground potato chip laboratory. And next year we roll out with

Marshall / Brooks / Nick Young
Kobe / Meeks / Bazemore
Wesley Johnson / Xavier Henry
Jordan Hill / Ryan Kelly

+ a free agent defensive center, + a free agent wing defender, + a stretch four type guy

+ whoever we get in the draft

... I mean seriously, you are talking about a team that could start to jell and start to give teams like OKC and the San Antonio Spurs a real look.

Sssmush
03-11-2014, 07:51 PM
Just think about what an innovation Pringles were over the common potato chip. I mean one can of Pringles packs more offensive potato firepower than a huge greazy bag of regular old potato chips. One can of pringles packs a wallop of potatoey-ness, AND each chip comes out perfectly formed, crispy, and you can get them in dozens of delicious flavors.

That is the type of innovation I am talking about in the new Dantoni system.

NBA_Starter
03-11-2014, 10:19 PM
As hard as this is to believe I guess it is possible.

JJ_JKidd
03-11-2014, 10:29 PM
Let me decode this for you:

1. Kobe had/has the highest status and the most influential voice in the Lakers franchise, in the eyes of the front office (and at the time in the eyes of Jerry Buss).

2. Kobe never specifically requested or demanded Phil. Publicly he said that he would welcome Phil back, but he also said that he welcomed Dantoni, with an equal level of acceptance and enthusiasm.

3. Kobe has never been in the Magic Johnson circle, and there's been tension between them because of Magic's weird criticism of Kobe and the Lakers (even during the immortal championship years).

4. Most importantly, Phil Jackson sometimes mishandled or under-utilized Kobe's offensive prowess, AND took Shaq's side during the Kobe-Shaq feud, AND slammed the **** out of Kobe in not one but TWO naughty little tell-all books about coaching the Lakers.

Seriously, if you haven't read Phil's books about the Lakers you should do so. Then you will fully understand that Kobe wouldn't be enthusiastic about Phil coaching the Lakers, and in fact it may very well have been Kobe who called the front office on Sunday night and gave them an ultimatum that he wasn't going to to play the rest of his career for Phil Jackson.

And who can blame him? Even during the salad days, Phil Jackson often had Derek Fisher and Sasha Vujacic shooting dozens of jump shots a day while Kobe ran around in circles doing "the Triangle." Yes they won five titles but they very possibly could've won more, at least two and possibly even three more, with a more athletic playmaking point guard, a more athletic aggressive power forward instead of Luke Walton, unleashing Kobe more, etc etc etc etc.

So yeah. Kobe's sidestepped this really effectively, but if push comes to shove and we are real about it, it's gotta be said that Kobe never wanted Phil to return to the Lakers for a third time and so therefore it didn't happen.

Wow an insider! :whistle:

savvy1803
03-12-2014, 01:40 AM
The hell is this newsflash b.s.? There is no news here just opinion. Mod needs to change title.

This all day long .

Sssmush
03-12-2014, 02:01 AM
The facts are the facts, it is only the process of deduction that has put all the pieces together.
That's why I said "newsflash" because this was this interpretation that was somehow being missed
despite the cacophony of reporting on this story. If you think it through the truth of it just becomes
more and more evident.

Also, there is the slightly ironic sense of "newsflash," like saying "HELLO!"

For instance, "Uh, *newsflash*, your fly is open and your wiener is hanging out"; in other words, "newsflash, here is something obviously true that you are dramatically overlooking."

IKnowHoops
03-12-2014, 03:48 AM
Let me decode this for you:

1. Kobe had/has the highest status and the most influential voice in the Lakers franchise, in the eyes of the front office (and at the time in the eyes of Jerry Buss).

2. Kobe never specifically requested or demanded Phil. Publicly he said that he would welcome Phil back, but he also said that he welcomed Dantoni, with an equal level of acceptance and enthusiasm.

3. Kobe has never been in the Magic Johnson circle, and there's been tension between them because of Magic's weird criticism of Kobe and the Lakers (even during the immortal championship years).

4. Most importantly, Phil Jackson sometimes mishandled or under-utilized Kobe's offensive prowess, AND took Shaq's side during the Kobe-Shaq feud, AND slammed the **** out of Kobe in not one but TWO naughty little tell-all books about coaching the Lakers.

Seriously, if you haven't read Phil's books about the Lakers you should do so. Then you will fully understand that Kobe wouldn't be enthusiastic about Phil coaching the Lakers, and in fact it may very well have been Kobe who called the front office on Sunday night and gave them an ultimatum that he wasn't going to to play the rest of his career for Phil Jackson.

And who can blame him? Even during the salad days, Phil Jackson often had Derek Fisher and Sasha Vujacic shooting dozens of jump shots a day while Kobe ran around in circles doing "the Triangle." Yes they won five titles but they very possibly could've won more, at least two and possibly even three more, with a more athletic playmaking point guard, a more athletic aggressive power forward instead of Luke Walton, unleashing Kobe more, etc etc etc etc.

So yeah. Kobe's sidestepped this really effectively, but if push comes to shove and we are real about it, it's gotta be said that Kobe never wanted Phil to return to the Lakers for a third time and so therefore it didn't happen.

Kobe's a bum. Could of won more? yeah, had Kobe done what Phil told him to do. Kobe lost that series against detroit. Shaq was unstoppable and scoring every time he touched it. Meanwhile Kobe is jacking up 30 foot fadeaways. Kobe would much rather look good and loose then look bad and win. I know this is true for most players but Kobe is at the top of the list. Kobe would have no chance to win without Phil because he was the only guy with enough pull and clout to semi keep him in line. Dude is a snitch and a rat and needs to thank Phil and Shaq for keeping a leash on him long enough to win a ring.

Sssmush
03-12-2014, 06:32 AM
Kobe's a bum. Could of won more? yeah, had Kobe done what Phil told him to do. Kobe lost that series against detroit. Shaq was unstoppable and scoring every time he touched it. Meanwhile Kobe is jacking up 30 foot fadeaways. Kobe would much rather look good and loose then look bad and win. I know this is true for most players but Kobe is at the top of the list. Kobe would have no chance to win without Phil because he was the only guy with enough pull and clout to semi keep him in line. Dude is a snitch and a rat and needs to thank Phil and Shaq for keeping a leash on him long enough to win a ring.

I'm sure there are people who would say the same thing about Michael Jordan too. But, you'd both be wrong: Jordan and Kobe would have definitely risen to the top eventually and found a way to win championships.

Jeeez, the freakin' ego on Phil Jackson is just completely mind-boggling. Like yeah, if not for Phil, nothing would ever have happened. I mean, why did the Lakers even exist before Phil got here, right? Like, if there were no Phil then Michael Jordan should've just played baseball and never even gone into the NBA.

Deadpool
03-12-2014, 06:40 AM
Kobe being the champion he is, I just don't see how there could be any truth to this. It doesn't take much to figure out that Phil was probably the best guy to coach last years team, but Jim Buss wanted Mike D end of story.

Hawkeye15
03-12-2014, 07:55 AM
A lot of what you said is just factually inaccurate. If it was up to Kobe, Brian Shaw would've already been coaching that team. But young Buss doesn't respect Kobe as much as his daddy did.

Also, Kobe doesn't care about anything but winning. He didn't run Shaq out of town. Shaq tried running Kobe out of town and it backfired. Kobe will play with anybody as long as it helps him. He was trying to recruit Raja Bell at one point, and Raja hates Kobe. Not to mention he recruited Artest and Barnes after almost fighting each of them the seasons prior.

Dwight wanted Phil too. What it seems like (and these are just claims I've heard from people who work for the Lakers but not close enough to the top to know anything really) is that little Buss didn't want Phil because Phil's relationship with his sister. That he felt like Phil would be a headache and constantly demand all sorts of special treatment. And why go through all that when he could get D'Antoni for half the price... and D'Antoni is a coach who had ties with Nash and Kobe.

Little Buss really has run the Lakers into the ground. I'm a Kobe fan first and foremost... but as a businessman. I'd of done everything I could to keep Howard around including hiring Phil and amnestying Kobe.

At the end of the day... ***** Stern. That's all that matters. Kobe should have 7 rings and be considered better than Jordan... but Stern sabotaged it all. I'll never have any respect for him ever after how blatantly he discarded his integrity.

Kobe could have 10 rings, and still not be in Jordan's league dude.

Hawkeye15
03-12-2014, 07:56 AM
Kobe's a bum. Could of won more? yeah, had Kobe done what Phil told him to do. Kobe lost that series against detroit. Shaq was unstoppable and scoring every time he touched it. Meanwhile Kobe is jacking up 30 foot fadeaways. Kobe would much rather look good and loose then look bad and win. I know this is true for most players but Kobe is at the top of the list. Kobe would have no chance to win without Phil because he was the only guy with enough pull and clout to semi keep him in line. Dude is a snitch and a rat and needs to thank Phil and Shaq for keeping a leash on him long enough to win a ring.

Kobe plays way too much hero ball, but not for a second do I think he would rather look good than win. He just doesn't understand that sometimes the best way to win is not to jack up bad shots. But the will to win has always been there with him.

Denver-boy
03-12-2014, 09:21 AM
Why dont they hire Magic Johnson instead, he doing a hell of a job for the Dodgers

IKnowHoops
03-12-2014, 05:18 PM
I'm sure there are people who would say the same thing about Michael Jordan too. But, you'd both be wrong: Jordan and Kobe would have definitely risen to the top eventually and found a way to win championships.

Jeeez, the freakin' ego on Phil Jackson is just completely mind-boggling. Like yeah, if not for Phil, nothing would ever have happened. I mean, why did the Lakers even exist before Phil got here, right? Like, if there were no Phil then Michael Jordan should've just played baseball and never even gone into the NBA.

I'm not one of those people. If you watch Mike, he got most of his points in the flow of the offense. If he got hot, he would keep going off on you, but he didn't force many bad shots.

The difference between Mike and Kobe besides ability, is that Kobe was trying to make Mike highlights on every play. Mikes main goal was to win championships, and he played smart in order to do it while taking advantage of his skills. Kobes main goal was to be better than Mike. So to a degree, on every play he was trying to out due Mikes best play, and his shot selection, and decision making was significantly worse because of this.

savvy1803
03-12-2014, 05:45 PM
Kobe plays way too much hero ball, but not for a second do I think he would rather look good than win. He just doesn't understand that sometimes the best way to win is not to jack up bad shots. But the will to win has always been there with him.
A will to win and the heart of a lion .

Sssmush
03-12-2014, 06:24 PM
I'm not one of those people. If you watch Mike, he got most of his points in the flow of the offense. If he got hot, he would keep going off on you, but he didn't force many bad shots.

The difference between Mike and Kobe besides ability, is that Kobe was trying to make Mike highlights on every play. Mikes main goal was to win championships, and he played smart in order to do it while taking advantage of his skills. Kobes main goal was to be better than Mike. So to a degree, on every play he was trying to out due Mikes best play, and his shot selection, and decision making was significantly worse because of this.

So put on your Chicago Bulls hat and go root for Phil Jackson and the Knicks. Who gives a ****.

Watching Kobe play in Los Angeles has been the best experience I've ever had of watching NBA basketball and it saddens me that it seems to be rapidly winding down.

Honestly I've got no time for these same beeeochy little Kobe hater complainers. I've been hearing this same kind of horse**** about Kobe (and LoL just as much about Phil while he was here!!!) since 2004.

Seriously, I'm just gonna say this once. It's like the "you can't hear Jimmy" quote. You can't see Kobe. I'll say it again, you just can't see Kobe.

Because anybody that could see Kobe, even without the five rings and all the epic playoff moments and the 81 points and the string of 40 point games etc, would just sit back and relax and enjoy it, and not have all this snarky hata-ism and complaining and pining for Jordan. If you are serious you should just listen to what Jordan has had to say about Kobe and think about that.

Jordan, I can assure you, can "see Kobe".

Hawkeye15
03-12-2014, 06:54 PM
A will to win and the heart of a lion .

yeah I mean, if 15 years from now, a kid asks me to describe Kobe in one sentence, I would say, "He would knife his own grandmother to win a playoff game". He is one of the most competitive players the game has ever seen. His offseason dedication, and his complete discipline in nutrition, exercise, therapy, and the mere fact that he played through nearly every injury are just something I will always admire about him. Even though I can't stand him. I am still happy I was able to watch him play his whole career, I feel lucky to do so.

Hawkeye15
03-12-2014, 06:55 PM
So put on your Chicago Bulls hat and go root for Phil Jackson and the Knicks. Who gives a ****.

Watching Kobe play in Los Angeles has been the best experience I've ever had of watching NBA basketball and it saddens me that it seems to be rapidly winding down.

Honestly I've got no time for these same beeeochy little Kobe hater complainers. I've been hearing this same kind of horse**** about Kobe (and LoL just as much about Phil while he was here!!!) since 2004.

Seriously, I'm just gonna say this once. It's like the "you can't hear Jimmy" quote. You can't see Kobe. I'll say it again, you just can't see Kobe.

Because anybody that could see Kobe, even without the five rings and all the epic playoff moments and the 81 points and the string of 40 point games etc, would just sit back and relax and enjoy it, and not have all this snarky hata-ism and complaining and pining for Jordan. If you are serious you should just listen to what Jordan has had to say about Kobe and think about that.

Jordan, I can assure you, can "see Kobe".

you gonna say that about LeBron in 5 years?

Just because you don't like a player at all doesn't mean you can't appreciate their career.

Chronz
03-12-2014, 06:59 PM
Kobe plays way too much hero ball, but not for a second do I think he would rather look good than win. He just doesn't understand that sometimes the best way to win is not to jack up bad shots. But the will to win has always been there with him.

Wouldn't that hold true for every player? Who wants to look good and lose? I think theres some truth to what he was saying, how else do you explain Kobe not listening to Phil's advice so often in his youth?

Chronz
03-12-2014, 07:01 PM
As for the OP, I wouldn't put it past Kobe. He could have kept the gang going if he wanted to back in 04, decided not to speak out and focus solely on his destiny, nothing wrong with that.

Hawkeye15
03-12-2014, 07:02 PM
Wouldn't that hold true for every player? Who wants to look good and lose? I think theres some truth to what he was saying, how else do you explain Kobe not listening to Phil's advice so often in his youth?

But do you think Kobe wanted to lose those games where he was defiant? I mean, Kobe is a primmadonna. Always has been. But never have I questioned his desire to win. In fact, his off court preparation and the way he took care of himself suggests all he cared about was his craft.

Perhaps his words, and attitude over time where just a show, and all he really cared about was etching his own ranking, but I just don't buy it.

Sssmush
03-12-2014, 10:58 PM
you gonna say that about LeBron in 5 years?

Just because you don't like a player at all doesn't mean you can't appreciate their career.

Lebron is awesome. Honestly I feel that his basketball talents are misunderstood. Lebron isn't even utilized correctly if you ask me, great as he is, and he could greatly benefit from a better coach. He doesn't seem to have everything that Kobe and Jordan have shown, but he has some other things that they don't. He's an absolute monster, I love watching him play, I learn something all the time.

savvy1803
03-12-2014, 11:03 PM
Lebron is awesome. Honestly I feel that his basketball talents are misunderstood. Lebron isn't even utilized correctly if you ask me, great as he is, and he could greatly benefit from a better coach. He doesn't seem to have everything that Kobe and Jordan have shown, but he has some other things that they don't. He's an absolute monster, I love watching him play, I learn something all the time.

Lebron has physical gifts that for his size would rival those of Shaq and even the Big Dipper to some degree .

Sssmush
03-12-2014, 11:06 PM
Wouldn't that hold true for every player? Who wants to look good and lose? I think theres some truth to what he was saying, how else do you explain Kobe not listening to Phil's advice so often in his youth?

Think about this: Who actually went out there and won those championships? Ultimately it was Kobe and the other players who went out there and made those great shots and made those great basketball plays and held together on defense and won the titles. Ok? Can we agree on that?

PHIL certainly did his part, but we all know that he always had this hands-off don't-call-timeouts and don't-run-on-the-sidelines-or-yell zen coaching style. When asked why he didn't call a timeout he always just said the players can figure it out themselves, they're grown men, they've learned what to do in practice so just let them play.

So... Kobe just did what he did, and it worked out to the tune of five championships so far. The 2004 loss in the Finals to Detroit was clearly the league ****ing it's pants over Kobe's rape trial and pulling out all the stops to have the refs hand the series to the Pistons (the FT differential stats from that series are simply incredible), and the 2008 loss to Boston in the Finals had some pretty sketchy refereeing also, if you ask me, after a year of nonstop "Big 3" hype.

But outside of those years, there definitely seems to have been two or three years where the Phil/Triangle system was flatout shackling Kobe and not letting him express the full measure of his greatness, insisting that he defer to guys like Luke Walton, Sasha, Fisher, etc -- guys who are just clearly 2nd raters now in hindsight, but at the time were big Phil "system guys."

I mean they (Phil and Kobe) were able to win 5 championships together but it is pretty tiresome to see Phil expecting to get all this worship like he was the one who did everything and won everything, when as far back as 2002 it was being mentioned that Phil often seemed like he wasn't doing anything.

Sssmush
03-12-2014, 11:11 PM
Lebron has physical gifts that for his size would rival those of Shaq and even the Big Dipper to some degree .

I would love to see Lebron play against a prime Shaq. And on a night when the referees were only calling fouls when they were blatant or intentional contact.

I'd also like to see Lebron go head to head with a prime Kevin Garnett. Of course a seven game series with prime Kobe would be interesting, but Kobe can take Lebron out of his element somewhat by creating shots at 25 feet.

But wow, against Griffin for example, if that Finals were to happen, I mean Lebron is like the incredible Hulk. Nobody knows how strong he is because the limit has never been reached.

Chronz
03-12-2014, 11:38 PM
But do you think Kobe wanted to lose those games where he was defiant? I mean, Kobe is a primmadonna. Always has been. But never have I questioned his desire to win. In fact, his off court preparation and the way he took care of himself suggests all he cared about was his craft.

Perhaps his words, and attitude over time where just a show, and all he really cared about was etching his own ranking, but I just don't buy it.

My point is that I dont know of any player that wanted to lose

Chronz
03-12-2014, 11:43 PM
Think about this: Who actually went out there and won those championships? Ultimately it was Kobe and the other players who went out there and made those great shots and made those great basketball plays and held together on defense and won the titles. Ok? Can we agree on that?
That holds true for every player to ever be a part of a championship team, the only coach that can claim to playing a championship role on the court was Bill Russell, to my knowledge anyways.



So... Kobe just did what he did, and it worked out to the tune of five championships so far. The 2004 loss in the Finals to Detroit was clearly the league ****ing it's pants over Kobe's rape trial and pulling out all the stops to have the refs hand the series to the Pistons (the FT differential stats from that series are simply incredible), and the 2008 loss to Boston in the Finals had some pretty sketchy refereeing also, if you ask me, after a year of nonstop "Big 3" hype.
Im not buying it, nor would it change the fact that Kobe was unruly and at his most uncoachable ALL YEAR that year.

richiesaurus310
03-13-2014, 12:58 AM
I'm a clipper fan, but heard Kobe say this today:

"Well, I mean you know how I feel about Phil," he began. "I have so much admiration for him and respect, and have a great relationship with him, so personally it would be hard for me to understand that (losing out on Jackson's services) happening twice. It would be tough. I don't really get it."

amos1er
03-13-2014, 01:07 AM
Let me decode this for you:

1. Kobe had/has the highest status and the most influential voice in the Lakers franchise, in the eyes of the front office (and at the time in the eyes of Jerry Buss).

2. Kobe never specifically requested or demanded Phil. Publicly he said that he would welcome Phil back, but he also said that he welcomed Dantoni, with an equal level of acceptance and enthusiasm.

3. Kobe has never been in the Magic Johnson circle, and there's been tension between them because of Magic's weird criticism of Kobe and the Lakers (even during the immortal championship years).

4. Most importantly, Phil Jackson sometimes mishandled or under-utilized Kobe's offensive prowess, AND took Shaq's side during the Kobe-Shaq feud, AND slammed the **** out of Kobe in not one but TWO naughty little tell-all books about coaching the Lakers.

Seriously, if you haven't read Phil's books about the Lakers you should do so. Then you will fully understand that Kobe wouldn't be enthusiastic about Phil coaching the Lakers, and in fact it may very well have been Kobe who called the front office on Sunday night and gave them an ultimatum that he wasn't going to to play the rest of his career for Phil Jackson.

And who can blame him? Even during the salad days, Phil Jackson often had Derek Fisher and Sasha Vujacic shooting dozens of jump shots a day while Kobe ran around in circles doing "the Triangle." Yes they won five titles but they very possibly could've won more, at least two and possibly even three more, with a more athletic playmaking point guard, a more athletic aggressive power forward instead of Luke Walton, unleashing Kobe more, etc etc etc etc.

So yeah. Kobe's sidestepped this really effectively, but if push comes to shove and we are real about it, it's gotta be said that Kobe never wanted Phil to return to the Lakers for a third time and so therefore it didn't happen.

No offense, but this has to be one of the worst theories I have ever read on this site and that's saying a lot. I can rip into this easily for hours, but the one point I will make is that if Kobe is the one who didn't want Phil, then why is he voicing his opinion to greatly in the media today in favor of Phil? Why is he saying that if the Lakers don't get Phil they are going to be making the same mistake twice. Does that really sound like someone who doesn't want Phil. Seriously, this is bad.

amos1er
03-13-2014, 01:10 AM
I'm a clipper fan, but heard Kobe say this today:

"Well, I mean you know how I feel about Phil," he began. "I have so much admiration for him and respect, and have a great relationship with him, so personally it would be hard for me to understand that (losing out on Jackson's services) happening twice. It would be tough. I don't really get it."

Thank you. Close thread now please.

Hawkeye15
03-13-2014, 01:16 AM
My point is that I dont know of any player that wanted to lose

Sure. We just know Kobe was irrational with his desire to win. Just like MJ. I think Kobe would stab someone for a playoff win, even if he was responsible for the game being not in his favor.

slashsnake
03-13-2014, 02:06 AM
So... Kobe just did what he did, and it worked out to the tune of five championships so far. The 2004 loss in the Finals to Detroit was clearly the league ****ing it's pants over Kobe's rape trial and pulling out all the stops to have the refs hand the series to the Pistons (the FT differential stats from that series are simply incredible), and the 2008 loss to Boston in the Finals had some pretty sketchy refereeing also, if you ask me, after a year of nonstop "Big 3" hype.


200-149 edge for LA in their series against Boston. 141-88 in their series against the nets. Refs clearly were on the take in those finals series... Only reason they even got to the finals in 2000 was I don't believe we should give Kobe a ring against Detroit and take two others away from him... do you?


I am sorry but if it came down to the Nets who nobody in NY even cared about, the Pacers, or the Sixers with AI winning a championship vs. the Los Angeles Lakers in that huge market, of course the NBA would rather LA get those rings. Same with the return win over Boston once they had a ring first. But even though LA clearly was the NBA's favorite team in those other 5 championships, no I am not saying Kobe only has a ring because LA is a franchise the league wants to see win.

Yes LA shot a lot less free throws. Billups was beating Payton and Fisher off the dribble and getting to the line on every drive. Then it was shaq collapsing and fouling, or a kick to Ben Wallace when Shaq collapsed and he would get fouled. Fisher and Payton were sitting back shooting three's and not getting there. Karl Malone was shooting fadeaways, same with Luke Walton, Rick Fox, Bryon Russel. Nobody on that team was even trying to draw fouls but Shaq and Kobe. The rest were sitting back. Even if LA were aggressive and evened that up, it was the rebounding edge that went to Detroit, the shooting % edge, the 3pt edge, they were by far the better team. I remember watching games 3 and 4 and outside of Shaq and Kobe the entire team was just standing there. I don't know if you want them to call fouls on spot up catch and shoots, but they don't happen often. Detroit was clearly the aggressor on offense and it won them that series.


No the NBA would have much rather been able to say Payton, Malone, Byron Russell, Horace Grant, and Shaq had won a championship over the star-less Pistons in a dying market. Even if it meant Kobe was part of that. If it was up to the league, the Knicks, Lakers, Bulls and Celtics would win every title in that order.

amos1er
03-13-2014, 02:52 AM
200-149 edge for LA in their series against Boston. 141-88 in their series against the nets. Refs clearly were on the take in those finals series... Only reason they even got to the finals in 2000 was I don't believe we should give Kobe a ring against Detroit and take two others away from him... do you?


I am sorry but if it came down to the Nets who nobody in NY even cared about, the Pacers, or the Sixers with AI winning a championship vs. the Los Angeles Lakers in that huge market, of course the NBA would rather LA get those rings. Same with the return win over Boston once they had a ring first. But even though LA clearly was the NBA's favorite team in those other 5 championships, no I am not saying Kobe only has a ring because LA is a franchise the league wants to see win.

Yes LA shot a lot less free throws. Billups was beating Payton and Fisher off the dribble and getting to the line on every drive. Then it was shaq collapsing and fouling, or a kick to Ben Wallace when Shaq collapsed and he would get fouled. Fisher and Payton were sitting back shooting three's and not getting there. Karl Malone was shooting fadeaways, same with Luke Walton, Rick Fox, Bryon Russel. Nobody on that team was even trying to draw fouls but Shaq and Kobe. The rest were sitting back. Even if LA were aggressive and evened that up, it was the rebounding edge that went to Detroit, the shooting % edge, the 3pt edge, they were by far the better team. I remember watching games 3 and 4 and outside of Shaq and Kobe the entire team was just standing there. I don't know if you want them to call fouls on spot up catch and shoots, but they don't happen often. Detroit was clearly the aggressor on offense and it won them that series.


No the NBA would have much rather been able to say Payton, Malone, Byron Russell, Horace Grant, and Shaq had won a championship over the star-less Pistons in a dying market. Even if it meant Kobe was part of that. If it was up to the league, the Knicks, Lakers, Bulls and Celtics would win every title in that order.

Sorry bro, but Kobe could not get a call that series. Go look at his stats. Dude was getting hacked with constant no calls. Even the Piston's big 3 (if you can call them that) were getting more calls than Kobe even though he was the league leader in FT attempts that season. Even Phil called it rigged on multiple occasions and even in his book that came out that year. Game 4 was just a joke and if that had happened to any team other than the Lakers it would have gone down as one of the biggest rapes in sports history. Yet only game 6 of the 2002 WCF gets brought up just because it was the Lakers who benefited. What about game 4 of the 2004 finals, game 2 of the 2008 finals for game 5 of the 2006 finals? Those were clearly worse and they were not just one game anomalies like in the 2002 WCF... They were throughout the entire series. Lakers may win the most, but they also take it in the *** like no other from the league. See Chris Paul trade.

Supreme LA
03-13-2014, 03:11 AM
Sorry bro, but Kobe could not get a call that series. Go look at his stats. Dude was getting hacked with constant no calls. Even the Piston's big 3 (if you can call them that) were getting more calls than Kobe even though he was the league leader in FT attempts that season. Even Phil called it rigged on multiple occasions and even in his book that came out that year. Game 4 was just a joke and if that had happened to any team other than the Lakers it would have gone down as one of the biggest rapes in sports history. Yet only game 6 of the 2002 WCF gets brought up just because it was the Lakers who benefited. What about game 4 of the 2004 finals, game 2 of the 2008 finals for game 5 of the 2006 finals? Those were clearly worse and they were not just one game anomalies like in the 2002 WCF... They were throughout the entire series. Lakers may win the most, but they also take it in the *** like no other from the league. See Chris Paul trade.

Please don't remind me about 08'. It's true that the Lakers team as a whole weren't ready that year to beat Boston in the Finals but the officiating that series was the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. I guess Boston earned their respect that season from refs being the best defensive team but that whole series was atrocious.

I don't blame Kobe for 2004. I believe it had more to do with an injured Karl Malone, a out of shape Shaq, and the tremendous play by the Pistons.

Sssmush
03-13-2014, 06:07 AM
No offense, but this has to be one of the worst theories I have ever read on this site and that's saying a lot. I can rip into this easily for hours, but the one point I will make is that if Kobe is the one who didn't want Phil, then why is he voicing his opinion to greatly in the media today in favor of Phil? Why is he saying that if the Lakers don't get Phil they are going to be making the same mistake twice. Does that really sound like someone who doesn't want Phil. Seriously, this is bad.

Well, looks to me like this was brought up yesterday or the day before, and suddenly people realize OH YEAH we haven't heard Kobe weigh in on this situation in two years, one way or the other, so let's hurry up and go get a take from Kobe.

Sounds to me like Kobe's just being diplomatic and trying to show Phil some degree of props, but *somehow* this is being spun everywhere, all the way from Mason and Ireland to NBCSports.com as "Kobe won't play for Dantoni" and "Kobe is incredulous that Phil isn't returning." If you really parse what he said, the whole interview, you'll see that is NOT what Kobe is saying and I think you'll see that he gets behind Dantoni and clarifies his position fairly soon.

Look... Jeannie Buss's team may have just figured out yesterday that having Kobe (rather than Magic Johnson, Stephen A. Smith, etc) on their side in the media is the most important piece on the chessboard. BUT... Mitch and Jim knew this three months ago, which is one big reason they signed him to a two year deal right quick.

And, in any case, can we all just agree that this Phil situation has reached super-weird levels by now? I mean, the only news story or leaks that I'm hearing is that Phil is close to taking the Knicks job. But everybody, from Mason on down, is talking as if this is a big crucial crisis point and that all the chips are on the table right this second to make Phil the president of basketball operations. Just a note here: nobody, including Phil, has said publicly that he is a candidate for any Lakers job or that any job is open. Phil has not publicly applied for any such job and has expressed no desire to coach.

I mean it's insane the way it keeps coming back to this. Just when you think Phil is finally gone (to the Knicks or wherever) then that is the moment when the urgency of his pitch to be team president is at its highest. It's such a transparent takeaway tactic, if any of this chatter is to be believed, and there is a strange desperation to all this. What it looks like to me is, 20 more games, free agency, draft, Lakers turn it around, come out hot next year, Phil to the Knicks, Laker fans move on.

So, apparently Phil sees a supreme moment of desperation right this second. I mean we all know that he plays games through the media, but right now he seems to be fighting for his life. He is kicking balls, scratching, screaming, calling all his friends to jump in, every dirty trick in the book, because *somehow* he believes that he can force Jim Buss to walk away and make him president of basketball operations.

Honestly this is not a good look for Phil, and I'm trying to think of an example but I don't think I can remember a more classless and pushy ex-coach situation in NBA history. Can anybody think of an example like this, where an ex-coach is just hanging out for years trashing the team in the media and starting all these fake rumours and jerking off the Knicks and all this stuff trying to pressure to be hired back by a team? And jeeez hired back to the highest position in the franchise supplanting the current president and GM?

weird. And getting weirder.

Chrisclover
03-13-2014, 08:18 AM
isnt phill banging the owners daughter ? yeah, maybe that has something to do with it :shrug:

Doubt kobe cares who the coach is when they even hired mike brown. does kobe need to be coached in this stage of his career really ? hes like an on the floor coach anyways. not like any coach can convince him to quit chucking, so whats the diff.
though i am a Kobe fan ,I can not help but say that he is an inveterate ballhog,with which somebody bash him