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bagwell368
03-09-2014, 12:09 PM
Giancarlo Stanton to the Boston Red Sox a trade that makes sense
Fansided | Mar 9

The Miami Marlins seemingly traded all of their top talent before the 2013 season. Everybody except Giancarlo Stanton, that is.

From the moment they retained him on the roster the trade rumors have been relentless. Every single team in baseball could use a young, elite, right-handed slugger who is under team control through 2017, after all. But not even the Marlins and their baffling tactics were willing to trade such a rare player.

Nothing came of those rumors and the Marlins recently expressed interesting in signing Stanton to an extension. Until such a deal is done, though, the trade rumors will continue. Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe offers what he believes to be a plausible trade partner this morning: none other than the Boston Red Sox.

Numerous teams would be in the hunt for Stanton, including the Cubs, Tigers, Angels, Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, Mets, Giants, Twins, and Mariners. You’d have to give up top young players, and then sign Stanton to a huge long-term deal.

But in reality, the team that matches up best with Miami is Boston. The Red Sox have the young players Miami wants and they have the financial resources to sign him.”

What would that trade look like? Cafardo offers the following possibilities:

Assuming the Red Sox would put Xander Bogaerts and Henry Owens on their no-trade list, the Marlins have always liked Will Middlebrooks and certainly feel Garin Cecchini is a top prospect. Add one of them to a package of Matt Barnes,Christian Vazquez, Jackie Bradley Jr., and Mookie Betts? Would that be enough? Would that be too much for the Sox to give up?”
- See more at: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/giancarlo-stanton-to-the-boston-red-sox-a-trade-that-makes-sense-294425.html#sthash.ISlXdbKK.dpuf

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I don't like it. Why isn't Nava part of the deal? Nava and Brentz could easily take JBJ off the table.

Vazquez? Fall back on my 3 way idea: trade Peavy to a team, and that team deals a kid Miami wants instead.

Finally, Cecchini or WMB? They can have WMB.

Nava, Brentz, Betts, kid x (talking top 100 spec here), Barnes, RDLR or Webster - close (a bit lighter) to my prior offers, keeps our likely starting 2014 CF, 2016 catcher, and 2015 3B on the team.

Other opinions?

todu82
03-09-2014, 03:15 PM
Stanton to Boston would be great but I hope that any deal that brings Stanton here is a deal that makes sense for the team and doesn't mortgage to big a part of our future.

RedSoxtober
03-09-2014, 08:43 PM
This is just one more reason that I hate Cafardo. He needs to stick to reporting what he hears; his conjecture about trades and the like are horrific.

rollins94
03-09-2014, 08:56 PM
I agree with the sentiment of trying to keep vazquez, guy is a defensive stud with a bat that is steadily improving, and at this point theres a decent chance he takes over the big league job over swihart. In related news, I wouldnt mind including swihart in this deal as the "player x" we get for peavy/ substitute for vazquez.

i dont think nava+brentz= bradley but hey might as well ask, the worst you can hear is no.

If we trade Middlebrooks in this deal and Peavy is gone, I assume they go the Drew route? they'll have the cash certainly, but it seems like an idea that was frowned upon by many on here not too long ago.

bags has a good offer structure, i think that sort of deal makes sense. now you just have to hope the marlins are rational in their expectations for a package

bagwell368
03-09-2014, 09:25 PM
I agree with the sentiment of trying to keep vazquez, guy is a defensive stud with a bat that is steadily improving, and at this point theres a decent chance he takes over the big league job over swihart. In related news, I wouldnt mind including swihart in this deal as the "player x" we get for peavy/ substitute for vazquez.

i dont think nava+brentz= bradley but hey might as well ask, the worst you can hear is no.

If we trade Middlebrooks in this deal and Peavy is gone, I assume they go the Drew route? they'll have the cash certainly, but it seems like an idea that was frowned upon by many on here not too long ago.

bags has a good offer structure, i think that sort of deal makes sense. now you just have to hope the marlins are rational in their expectations for a package

Drew for a year with a promise not to arb him. Deal him at the deadline if Sox suck or Cechini ready to go early.

Swihart didn't look that good today, but still rather gamble on him and cash in Peavy.

BoSox47
03-10-2014, 03:33 AM
I think pulling stanton to the Sox would be a great move if we can get it done. Kid has a chance to be special and use that green monster to its ability. Id do Cecchini, Barnes, and Mookie + maybe another spec but not to high. Cant comprise the farm for him though. If we were to give up a catcher i would rather keep vasquez.

bagwell368
03-10-2014, 09:37 AM
I think pulling stanton to the Sox would be a great move if we can get it done. Kid has a chance to be special and use that green monster to its ability. Id do Cecchini, Barnes, and Mookie + maybe another spec but not to high. Cant comprise the farm for him though. If we were to give up a catcher i would rather keep vasquez.

The beauty of my deal (and prior versions) is that I'm dealing from areas of depth (much like my Adrian Gonzalez trade):

1. SP - Miami doesn't need an expensive vet like Peavy, but a team that does will return a kid that Miami want
2. ML vets: cheap and proven: (Nava who we won't be needing); young/cheap: (WMB - power at 3B)
3. Pitching in the minors (happy to hand over RDLR and Webster(8)
4. Positional in the minors were we are deep: 2B (Betts(10) or Coyle(25)); Even deal them Brentz (16 - good spring)

Counterpoints:

1. Peavy - a solid #2 or #3 - don't we need him? Nice to have him, but his salary is high, he's a FA after this year, and we are deep at SP. From a team desperate for a #2, they could trade a kid in BA's top 100. This wipes Vazquez out of the deal, and more to boot. Our rotation w/o him is: Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Doubront, Workman. I'll take Workman & Drew vs Peavy and the current left side.
2. Nava is the little engine that could and between him and Brentz Miami will be able to have a LF over at least the next 4 years (Nava will be cheap thru '17) - but neither is going to be a big deal hitter in Boston (pretty sure we just saw Nava's career year). If Brentz can play than Miami gets a nice trade chip in Nava.
3. Chances are neither of these 2 is going to make it Boston as a #3 SP or better. RDLR has a great arm, but doesn't appear to know how to pitch (a good MR at best). Webster's shelf life is waning.
4. Betts(10) is a hot kid right now, but they don't even know where they might play him.

So the deal is Peavy(kid to Miami -probable top 5 sort of kid in a good system), Nava, Brentz(16), WMB, RDLR, Webster(8), Betts(10).

Sign Drew.

I haven't laid a hand on most of the Sox system, and nobody expected to contribute this year. I've dealt a platoon LF whom we don't need w/ Stanton, a 3B whose future outside of his raw power is in question, and a probable RP that isn't liable to impact our staff by being gone.

I've gone quantity over quality, and the negative ripples left in the pond 13 months from today from such a deal might be quite hard to make out.

No matter what I won't trade XB, Cecchini, Vazquez. I might trade JBJ or Swihart, but it would have to alter the deal a great deal to make it worthwhile.

Bo Sox Fan
03-10-2014, 10:02 AM
Assuming a trade gets done within the next 2 years, what is a realistic contract extension look like? He's only 24 right now.

9 years, $200 milllion?

Tragedy
03-10-2014, 11:10 AM
Why would the Marlins want Nava? They'd want JBJ, very likely. And they should want him over Brentz.

Xander and Owens can be untouchable but they'll want a package of 3-4 guys of the other top specs we have.

bagwell368
03-10-2014, 12:14 PM
Why would the Marlins want Nava? They'd want JBJ, very likely. And they should want him over Brentz.

Xander and Owens can be untouchable but they'll want a package of 3-4 guys of the other top specs we have.

Did you read what I wrote?

Miami gets Nava (under control cheap starting player) AND Brentz (16th spec).

Miami gets our 8th (Webster), 10th (Betts) spec.

Miami gets a top 100 MLB spec for Peavy - they get to chose who they want if that team wants Peavy.

They get RDLR, who would be rated in the Sox top 10 if he was still a spec.

They get WMB would be rated 2nd in the Sox system if he was still a spec.

Why not toss in Lester and XB too? Miami can't get everything they want. They have said they want WMB. They obviously want cheap young talented players under control (who doesn't). They also can't get highly speculative specs across the board, they could actually use starting players such as WMB and Nava.

I know Miami keeps talking about keeping him for a few more years. With his injury issues that's not a no risk proposition, so I'm making it hard for them to say no, without crushing our own team or farm system - this year or any year.

For instance if the deal was XB for GS I say no. Big hitters in the INF are worth more than the OF, plus we have years more control of XB then GS, and GS has had injury issues. I'm quite sure on both Cecchini and Vazquez too. JBJ I might deal, but we don't have a solution in the mid term w/o him and finding one could cost us a lot - so I'd rather not. Even if JBJ is a .252/.312/.382 player his first 3 years with killer D, he's worth it for his salary and stability of the position - until we get a better player and/or deal him later.

bagwell368
03-10-2014, 12:29 PM
Assuming a trade gets done within the next 2 years, what is a realistic contract extension look like? He's only 24 right now.

9 years, $200 milllion?

Say it gets done today: we'd be buying out 4 years of control where his average salary could be in the $11-12M range. So $48m for 4 and $25M for 4 is $148m for 8. The payrolls are going up, so with inflation, good will and all the rest: 8/$160M.

Add a 3 single year options at: ($27.5M in todays salary indexed to what that is in 2022 - say $33M) each year Sox option, buyout is $2M. So it could be as much as 11 years for $259M. Or as "little" as 8/$162M.

RedSoxtober
03-10-2014, 05:32 PM
Drew for a year with a promise not to arb him. Deal him at the deadline if Sox suck or Cechini ready to go early.

Swihart didn't look that good today, but still rather gamble on him and cash in Peavy.
Read somewhere that Drew might be coming down to something like $20M/2yr to save face. And future FAs may think much harder about accepting that QO.


Say it gets done today: we'd be buying out 4 years of control where his average salary could be in the $11-12M range. So $48m for 4 and $25M for 4 is $148m for 8. The payrolls are going up, so with inflation, good will and all the rest: 8/$160M.

Add a 3 single year options at: ($27.5M in todays salary indexed to what that is in 2022 - say $33M) each year Sox option, buyout is $2M. So it could be as much as 11 years for $259M. Or as "little" as 8/$162M.

This makes a lot of sense. BUT... I'd cut it a year shorter to see the kid play a full season. I'm in the camp of those concerned about his ability to play 150 games. There's no reason that he shouldn't be able to ... but he hasn't lately.

win red sox
03-11-2014, 10:25 PM
Boston acquires
-Stanton

Miami acquires
-Owens
-Cecchini
-Swihart
-Carp
-RDLR
-Brentz

I had a difficult time making this work for both teams, But after looking at what Miami has on it's current roster and down on the farm, it makes sense. I see Owens as a back of the rotation guy on a first division team and I see Cecchini as cof with a good but not great on base guy with minimum power. Swihart is a different story, this guy has stud written all over him, but I don't think the deal works without him. Carp would be a good fit for the marlins as they have no power at 1b at mlb level or the minors, plus he would be redundant with Nava still on the roster. Brentz actually fits really well with Marlins as I see him as a second division starter and he can replace some of Stanton's power.

Betts is the player I would avoid at all costs trading, with his athletic ability the sox could put him anywhere in the field and he would be just fine. I would venture to guess by the end of the year it will be Betts and Swihart battling out for top prospect in the system.

RedSoxtober
03-11-2014, 11:22 PM
I had a difficult time making this work for both teams, But after looking at what Miami has on it's current roster and down on the farm, it makes sense.
No, this does not make sense for the Red Sox. How many of these guys have you actually seen?


I see Owens as a back of the rotation guy on a first division team
This is the guy that most scouts see as the pitching prospect with the highest upside, recently suggested as a #2 ceiling.


and I see Cecchini as cof with a good but not great on base guy with minimum power.
The guy who led the minors in OBP is going to be a "good but not great on base guy"? And when will he be switching to a corner OF position? Sigh.


Swihart is a different story, this guy has stud written all over him, but I don't think the deal works without him.
Swihart is high on potential but I'm honestly stunned that you think he's the most valuable product in this array.


Carp would be a good fit for the marlins as they have no power at 1b at mlb level or the minors, plus he would be redundant with Nava still on the roster.
Carp has never been more than a backup and his power (.444 career SLG) is unspectacular. So is his 162-game average of 17HR. In fact, those numbers are not all that different than the kid MIA has at AA.


Brentz actually fits really well with Marlins as I see him as a second division starter and he can replace some of Stanton's power.
Yay, I actually agree.


Betts is the player I would avoid at all costs trading, with his athletic ability the sox could put him anywhere in the field and he would be just fine. I would venture to guess by the end of the year it will be Betts and Swihart battling out for top prospect in the system.
I think you're sipping the Kool-Aid a bit too much. If Betts repeats 2013 at the next level I suppose it's possible... but I harbor doubts based on what I saw of him in the field. Perhaps he had a renewed focus as he left a pretty lousy GVL team but he seemed bored and distracted in the field and booted very easy plays.

win red sox
03-12-2014, 12:06 AM
1) I've seen several games of Betts and Swihart, 2 starts of Owens and 2-3 games with Cecchini. I travel to the east coast often for work and try to catch as many game as possible.

2) The starts I saw Owens wasn't overpowering ones, grabbed a lot of plate but had the hitters fooled with offspeed stuff, I don't think that will play at the MLB level.

3) While I only observed Cecchini a couple of times, the times I did observe him his reaction time was below average at 3b(hence why I think he will move cof spot). And my thought process behind Cecchini being a good but not great obp guy is that he has average speed with below average power, MLB pitchers are not going to be scared to pitch to him, and he's not going to runout those groung balls he hits consistently(50% gb rate). sigh.

4) Swihart is going to be "special", not only was I impressed with his work behind the plate but his approach at the plate was more advanced than anticipated(plus he talked to my son for 15 mins about catching)

5) Carp would be an upgrade over what they have now.

6) Brentz agreed

7) Betts Is probably the best athlete I observed in the system, the approach is advanced, and when he makes contact its loud. I do agree that his defense appeared sloppy at times on routine plays, but the range is there and hopefully the focus will come.

These are just my opinions and hopefully im wrong on some of them.

bagwell368
03-12-2014, 06:51 AM
Boston acquires
-Stanton

Miami acquires
-Owens
-Cecchini
-Swihart
-Carp
-RDLR
-Brentz

No on Cecchini, and very close to a no on Owens. Overall you're giving them less than I did. They need power back and that's WMB.


I had a difficult time making this work for both teams, But after looking at what Miami has on it's current roster and down on the farm, it makes sense. I see Owens as a back of the rotation guy on a first division team and I see Cecchini as cof with a good but not great on base guy with minimum power.

Owens won't be starting in the Majors until next year at the earliest, and he won't be a back of the rotation guy if he's healthy, he'll be at least a 4th as a rookie and might be a #2 in his 2nd or 3rd year. He's a significant chip.. Cecchini will be a top OBP 3B. A .290/.365/.410 out of him is better than a .250/.295/.475 out of WMB any day of the week.


Swihart is a different story, this guy has stud written all over him, but I don't think the deal works without him

Swihart might not be a ML catcher, but instead a 2B, it still isn't clear.


Carp would be a good fit for the marlins as they have no power at 1b at mlb level or the minors

Carp is a platoon player who mixes bad and good seasons together. He's no real factor. And everyone knows the Sox are trying to deal him.


plus he would be redundant with Nava still on the roster.

If Stanton comes to Boston, Nava is gone. Nava isn't taking over 1B or RF (he's not very good in RF esp. compared to SV) he can't play CF. He's not moving Ortiz out of DH. Nope, he's gone.


Brentz actually fits really well with Marlins as I see him as a second division starter and he can replace some of Stanton's power.

Brentz is almost a year older than Stanton and has 0 ML PA's. He's a flier at best. Nava is their help in LF, and maybe Brentz later on - more likely a trade chip or a future DFA.


Betts is the player I would avoid at all costs trading, with his athletic ability the sox could put him anywhere in the field and he would be just fine. I would venture to guess by the end of the year it will be Betts and Swihart battling out for top prospect in the system.

Where are they going to put Betts? He has no position. 2B? Pedroia 3B? Cecchini SS? XB LF? Stanton.... he hasn't even done anything in AA, and in the Fall league showed zero power. He's at least two years away. Not going to get Stanton w/o offering at least two very good bets to be elite players. For your deal it's Swihart and Owens. For mine it's Betts and a spec in return for Peavy. Your two seems to cut deeper to the bone and are harder to replace. My two are for a one year SP and a player with no position. Also they have said they want WMB and I'm happy to move him out of here.

Swihart might battle out for the top spec spot after Owens, Cecchini are dealt or in the Majors. Vazquez will beat Swihart to the Majors too. But Betts? Let's see how he handles AA, this might be the perfect time to deal him.

win red sox
03-12-2014, 10:22 AM
disagree

Tragedy
03-12-2014, 10:41 AM
Why would the Marlins want Nava? They'd want JBJ, very likely. And they should want him over Brentz.

Xander and Owens can be untouchable but they'll want a package of 3-4 guys of the other top specs we have.

Did you read what I wrote?

Miami gets Nava (under control cheap starting player) AND Brentz (16th spec).

Miami gets our 8th (Webster), 10th (Betts) spec.

Miami gets a top 100 MLB spec for Peavy - they get to chose who they want if that team wants Peavy.

They get RDLR, who would be rated in the Sox top 10 if he was still a spec.

They get WMB would be rated 2nd in the Sox system if he was still a spec.

Why not toss in Lester and XB too? Miami can't get everything they want. They have said they want WMB. They obviously want cheap young talented players under control (who doesn't). They also can't get highly speculative specs across the board, they could actually use starting players such as WMB and Nava.

I know Miami keeps talking about keeping him for a few more years. With his injury issues that's not a no risk proposition, so I'm making it hard for them to say no, without crushing our own team or farm system - this year or any year.

For instance if the deal was XB for GS I say no. Big hitters in the INF are worth more than the OF, plus we have years more control of XB then GS, and GS has had injury issues. I'm quite sure on both Cecchini and Vazquez too. JBJ I might deal, but we don't have a solution in the mid term w/o him and finding one could cost us a lot - so I'd rather not. Even if JBJ is a .252/.312/.382 player his first 3 years with killer D, he's worth it for his salary and stability of the position - until we get a better player and/or deal him later.
So basically, Nava + 8th, 10th, 16th spec, plus DeLa Rosa and WMB?

So basically, make a deal that offers a ton of guys rather than potential superstars?

Sorry, but this is fantasy land.

First up: they seem like they want WMB. So it has to be WMB plus at least ONE top prospect - Ranaudo, Barnes, JBJ, Owens, Xander. Sox would likely say no to the last two.

So it STARTS with WMB and at least one of those guys, let's say JBJ.

Now they're going to wait 1-2 more players. That's where you give a Webster or a Brentz.

So it's got to be at least WMB, JBJ, Webster. Something like that type.- stud (JBJ), an MLB ready guy (WMB), and a potential pitcher (Webster).

With that deal, that still probably doesn't get it done. So you either add a guy like De La Rosa, or you substitute Webster for a guy like Ranaudo, or something.

I think this seems a bit more realistic than keeping any and all of your top guys. It doesn't happen like that.

And again: Nava is useless for them. 31 years old? He's a good, cheap player, but you've got to be kidding me if you think he'd be a pretty good guy to send that way. Just doesn't seem right.

JBJ, WMB, Webster, and that might still not get it done.

People, this is the real world. Not fantasy land.

The one thing that DOES make sense to me is flipping Peavy to another team so that team gives the Marlins a good spec. But really, how high of a value is Peavy?

win red sox
03-12-2014, 11:01 AM
No on Cecchini, and very close to a no on Owens. Overall you're giving them less than I did. They need power back and that's WMB.



Owens won't be starting in the Majors until next year at the earliest, and he won't be a back of the rotation guy if he's healthy, he'll be at least a 4th as a rookie and might be a #2 in his 2nd or 3rd year. He's a significant chip.. Cecchini will be a top OBP 3B. A .290/.365/.410 out of him is better than a .250/.295/.475 out of WMB any day of the week.



Swihart might not be a ML catcher, but instead a 2B, it still isn't clear.



Carp is a platoon player who mixes bad and good seasons together. He's no real factor. And everyone knows the Sox are trying to deal him.



If Stanton comes to Boston, Nava is gone. Nava isn't taking over 1B or RF (he's not very good in RF esp. compared to SV) he can't play CF. He's not moving Ortiz out of DH. Nope, he's gone.



Brentz is almost a year older than Stanton and has 0 ML PA's. He's a flier at best. Nava is their help in LF, and maybe Brentz later on - more likely a trade chip or a future DFA.



Where are they going to put Betts? He has no position. 2B? Pedroia 3B? Cecchini SS? XB LF? Stanton.... he hasn't even done anything in AA, and in the Fall league showed zero power. He's at least two years away. Not going to get Stanton w/o offering at least two very good bets to be elite players. For your deal it's Swihart and Owens. For mine it's Betts and a spec in return for Peavy. Your two seems to cut deeper to the bone and are harder to replace. My two are for a one year SP and a player with no position. Also they have said they want WMB and I'm happy to move him out of here.

Swihart might battle out for the top spec spot after Owens, Cecchini are dealt or in the Majors. Vazquez will beat Swihart to the Majors too. But Betts? Let's see how he handles AA, this might be the perfect time to deal him.

For the most part It looks like we different opinion of the prospects in the trade.

1) Owens, when I saw him he grabbed a lot of plate with his fastball, he still got some k's because of his offspead stuff but I doubt he get's away with that at mlb level. His command could come along and he could a could add some velocity, but im skeptical. I don't see a front of the rotation starter.

2) Cecchini, defensively his reaction time is below average, I would assume that if he is the system next year he will profile as a cof. Offensively he's been obp machine in the minor's, but I don't t think his approach will play at the ml level. Pitchers will actually pitch to him at the ml level, and why not? he's shown minimum power, average speed and a 50% gb rate.

3) Betts is probably the best athlete in the system with and advance approach and surprising power. If he duplicates last year, he is the best prospect in the system and Sox will find a position for him.

4) Swihart vs Vasquez, it's not even close really. While Vazquez has gotten all the pub this spring, Swihart has the brighter future(footwork,leadership,approach). Where did you read that his future is not catcher? I saw a small blurb where it says he was athletic enough to be 2b, but he is a catcher.

I pull for all these guys, and hopefully im wrong some of them.

bagwell368
03-12-2014, 01:37 PM
So basically, Nava + 8th, 10th, 16th spec, plus DeLa Rosa and WMB?

No, you missed the top 100 MLB spec of MIA's choice for dealing Peavy - in the Sox system about 3-5th spec.


So basically, make a deal that offers a ton of guys rather than potential superstars?

Yes, I said it was quantity over quality. But Betts and this top 100 spec could be big time players, and WMB is someone they crave (they said so). and the other guys are not chopped liver specs either.


Sorry, but this is fantasy land.

Since you missed the highest ranked kid they are going get (and select) I don't think it's a reasonable conclusion.


First up: they seem like they want WMB. So it has to be WMB plus at least ONE top prospect - Ranaudo, Barnes, JBJ, Owens, Xander. Sox would likely say no to the last two.

First up - the spec from Peavy ought to be in the same category as Owens (meaning higher than ranaudo and Barnes at least). Xander isn't a spec, he's a starter.


So it STARTS with WMB and at least one of those guys, let's say JBJ.

WMB and a top 100 spec - better than JBJ, but we need JBJ.


Now they're going to wait 1-2 more players. That's where you give a Webster or a Brentz.

Check.


So it's got to be at least WMB, JBJ, Webster. Something like that type.- stud (JBJ), an MLB ready guy (WMB), and a potential pitcher (Webster).

You named Webster twice, my offer is better, plus Nava is a cheap and effective LF for them to use or trade that helps them for 1-3 years.


With that deal, that still probably doesn't get it done. So you either add a guy like De La Rosa, or you substitute Webster for a guy like Ranaudo, or something.

Webster is in, if they want Ranaudo instead to make the deal - fine.


I think this seems a bit more realistic than keeping any and all of your top guys. It doesn't happen like that.

Owens, Cecchini, XB are the do not trades IMO. Could talk the rest of them - still think they will have guys they want more than say Ranaudo, and I gave them a way to get them.


And again: Nava is useless for them. 31 years old? He's a good, cheap player, but you've got to be kidding me if you think he'd be a pretty good guy to send that way. Just doesn't seem right.

You're wrong. Nava is a solid low paid controlled player. He's getting paid $555k this year and is under control for 3 more years on top of that. Nava's slash last year was: .303/.385/ .445 which in this day at a 128 OPS+ is well above average for a LF. If they don't want him, they can spin him off easy enough for something else. If they want us to deal him for a spec that they get - fine - but the notion that he's worthless is excuse me - ridiculous.


JBJ, WMB, Webster, and that might still not get it done.

My offer is Much HIGHER.

top 100 spec, WMB, Webster, RDLR, Betts, Nava, Brentz


People, this is the real world. Not fantasy land.

Reread my posts on this topic and then offer your apologies. If this is your offer up above, it's a joke, you're the one in fantasy land.


The one thing that DOES make sense to me is flipping Peavy to another team so that team gives the Marlins a good spec. But really, how high of a value is Peavy?

In a league of teams that has very few teams with top notch #2 and #3 SP's he's a ticket to the post season for one of the better ones. Go take a look at the deals over the past 10 years for such SP's on their final year, there are some strong offers. Usually 2 or 3 top 10 specs of 1 teams farm, in this case I'll settle for a top 100 MLB wide of Miami's choosing.

bagwell368
03-12-2014, 01:50 PM
For the most part It looks like we different opinion of the prospects in the trade.

1) Owens, when I saw him he grabbed a lot of plate with his fastball, he still got some k's because of his offspead stuff but I doubt he get's away with that at mlb level. His command could come along and he could a could add some velocity, but im skeptical. I don't see a front of the rotation starter.

2) Cecchini, defensively his reaction time is below average, I would assume that if he is the system next year he will profile as a cof. Offensively he's been obp machine in the minor's, but I don't t think his approach will play at the ml level. Pitchers will actually pitch to him at the ml level, and why not? he's shown minimum power, average speed and a 50% gb rate.

3) Betts is probably the best athlete in the system with and advance approach and surprising power. If he duplicates last year, he is the best prospect in the system and Sox will find a position for him.

4) Swihart vs Vasquez, it's not even close really. While Vazquez has gotten all the pub this spring, Swihart has the brighter future(footwork,leadership,approach). Where did you read that his future is not catcher? I saw a small blurb where it says he was athletic enough to be 2b, but he is a catcher.

I pull for all these guys, and hopefully im wrong some of them.

I read your response to RST, no need to repeat yourself.

I've read a number of times that Swihart might not be a long term catcher. I've heard it from a scout too. He might be to good a hitter to beat up at catcher. Footwork? His arm doesn't compare to Vazquez.

Cecchini is going to be an excellent OBP hitter, he already is.

WMB is a lousy fielder and isn't going to be able to hit for power against good pitchers because his idea of the strike zone is so poor, and his aggressive mind set will be used against him. Look at his records so far, he's had almost all his big days in 10+ run games against pitchers having very bad days.

Haven't seen Owens enough, but the scouts sure like him.

Cecchini as a COF? Only if XB is at 3B.

Betts sucked in the Fall league, he's done nothing in AA yet. He may be good or very good, but it's too early to be fitting him for a Sox uni.

Boston-Born
03-12-2014, 02:39 PM
WMB, JBJ, Peavy spec (Top 150), Webster/RDLR, and Brentz is boarderline but it starts to get MIA thinking. My thinking is WMB, JBJ, Barnes, RLDR, and Brentz is the deal that gets this done. Its close to what everyone is saying but i think Barnes over a Peavy spec gets this done.

Bo Sox Fan
03-12-2014, 02:42 PM
What are the real expectations for Brentz anyways? Is he considered an adequate replacement for Victorino in right field 2 years from now? Or is it more likely he's just another cast away like the Bowden's, Reddick's and Lowrie's of the world..

bagwell368
03-12-2014, 04:26 PM
WMB, JBJ, Peavy spec (Top 150), Webster/RDLR, and Brentz is boarderline but it starts to get MIA thinking. My thinking is WMB, JBJ, Barnes, RLDR, and Brentz is the deal that gets this done. Its close to what everyone is saying but i think Barnes over a Peavy spec gets this done.

Who plays CF for us? Sizemore and Nava? Getting Stanton means we have to get rid of Nava, and might as well send Brentz with him too. Betts is one of the fastest rising players we have, better we deal him (short term certainly) than JBJ. Dealing Webster AND RDLR also helps make up any issues. Your second deal seems weaker than the first one - because the spec for Peavy is very likely to be more to Miami's liking than Barnes. We still have Nava and Gomes as well.

bagwell368
03-12-2014, 04:27 PM
What are the real expectations for Brentz anyways? Is he considered an adequate replacement for Victorino in right field 2 years from now? Or is it more likely he's just another cast away like the Bowden's, Reddick's and Lowrie's of the world..

He's shown a bit of a pulse this spring, but at his age he looks like a 3-4 year MLB player at best and probably never a regular starter. So no. I figure Miami just moves him or has us move him for someone they want (in the context of this deal).

win red sox
03-12-2014, 05:58 PM
I read your response to RST, no need to repeat yourself.

I've read a number of times that Swihart might not be a long term catcher. I've heard it from a scout too. He might be to good a hitter to beat up at catcher. Footwork? His arm doesn't compare to Vazquez.

Cecchini is going to be an excellent OBP hitter, he already is.

WMB is a lousy fielder and isn't going to be able to hit for power against good pitchers because his idea of the strike zone is so poor, and his aggressive mind set will be used against him. Look at his records so far, he's had almost all his big days in 10+ run games against pitchers having very bad days.

Haven't seen Owens enough, but the scouts sure like him.

Cecchini as a COF? Only if XB is at 3B.

Betts sucked in the Fall league, he's done nothing in AA yet. He may be good or very good, but it's too early to be fitting him for a Sox uni.

I haven't heard about the sox moving him off of C, it would be damn shame he takes a lot of pride in his catching and has the tools to successful there. I never said he had a better arm than Vasquez, I just like Swihart athletic ability behind the plate including his footwork more.

When I see 17% bb rate, 50% gb rate, 367 babip, and a 108 iso in AA, what I see is a good AA obp guy. In my opinion that numbers will not translate to the major league level. I only observed Cecchini a couple of games at 3b, I was not impressed.

I don't know why WMB is being brought up, but its almost like he took a dump on your front lawn and you can't let it go.

I wouldn't say Betts sucked the fall league 271/368/373 is respectable, but it was only 59 ab's.

Norieaga
03-12-2014, 07:42 PM
Just wanted to note that Brett Wallace was released today. Although his OBP was terrible he did have solid power (.431SLG) and 13HR's in 285 PA's. Not sure how he fares as a defender. Only 27.

For the sake of argument couldn't the Marlins just sign him for nothing and then pursue something other than WMB? I'm just not sure how much true value WMB has at the moment.

bagwell368
03-12-2014, 10:53 PM
I haven't heard about the sox moving him off of C, it would be damn shame he takes a lot of pride in his catching and has the tools to successful there. I never said he had a better arm than Vasquez, I just like Swihart athletic ability behind the plate including his footwork more.

Swihart is clearly quicker of foot than Vazquez, no doubt, but Vazquez is quicker then say Lavarnway by a good deal.


When I see 17% bb rate, 50% gb rate, 367 babip, and a 108 iso in AA, what I see is a good AA obp guy. In my opinion that numbers will not translate to the major league level. I only observed Cecchini a couple of games at 3b, I was not impressed.

Nobody's AA OBP translates as is to the ML, he doesn't have to.


I don't know why WMB is being brought up, but its almost like he took a dump on your front lawn and you can't let it go.

He's a frequent topic, and perhaps I'm sick of talk radio claiming he's a shoe in to hit 30 HR in 600 PA's. If I'm right about WMB and your right about GC, then the Sox are going to have to move XB over to 3B (not where I want him long term).


I wouldn't say Betts sucked the fall league 271/368/373 is respectable, but it was only 59 ab's.

I meant the SLG, my bad.

bagwell368
03-12-2014, 10:57 PM
Just wanted to note that Brett Wallace was released today. Although his OBP was terrible he did have solid power (.431SLG) and 13HR's in 285 PA's. Not sure how he fares as a defender. Only 27.

For the sake of argument couldn't the Marlins just sign him for nothing and then pursue something other than WMB? I'm just not sure how much true value WMB has at the moment.

Teams are going to try and undercut us for him, they'd be stupid not too. At this point it might make sense to play him (and sit him vs SP's known to bedevil him at least to some extent) and see if he can turn more towards good judgement and away from Paul Bunyan heroics at the plate.

I'm afraid he's going to be poor in the field no matter what, getting worse with age, maybe to the level of *gasp* Dean Palmer.

Boston-Born
03-12-2014, 11:33 PM
Who plays CF for us? Sizemore and Nava? Getting Stanton means we have to get rid of Nava, and might as well send Brentz with him too. Betts is one of the fastest rising players we have, better we deal him (short term certainly) than JBJ. Dealing Webster AND RDLR also helps make up any issues. Your second deal seems weaker than the first one - because the spec for Peavy is very likely to be more to Miami's liking than Barnes. We still have Nava and Gomes as well.

With what Jake Peavy has left, I am not sure he would net a spec better than Barnes. Everything you are saying is what we would trade to keep our team better, but the Marlins don't care about that and they are the ones with leverage since they have the player we want. A player like Stanton doesn't come with quantity over quality like you previously mentioned, it comes with both. Players like WMB and Nava are all fine and great, but if the Marlins are to trade Stanton, they are basically given a list of players less XB and Owens and pick who they want. To think they won't want a top pitching prospect is questionable. Webster and RDLR, though recently former top specs, won't be enough in terms of arms.

bagwell368
03-13-2014, 01:24 PM
With what Jake Peavy has left, I am not sure he would net a spec better than Barnes. Everything you are saying is what we would trade to keep our team better, but the Marlins don't care about that and they are the ones with leverage since they have the player we want. A player like Stanton doesn't come with quantity over quality like you previously mentioned, it comes with both. Players like WMB and Nava are all fine and great, but if the Marlins are to trade Stanton, they are basically given a list of players less XB and Owens and pick who they want. To think they won't want a top pitching prospect is questionable. Webster and RDLR, though recently former top specs, won't be enough in terms of arms.

We gave up Iglesias (a top 100 spec), and three other kids (2 seem decently promising) for Peavy. Peavy now has just one year at $14.5M left, not 1.5 like last year, since he's healthy if anything he might be worth more this season.

Betts at #10 spec is a serious piece, so is Webster and RDLR, and whatever we get for Peavy (Ranaudo level spec for instance).

Miami has to play someone at LF and we don't have anyone better than Nava and Brentz to offer, if they don't like it, they can fill in with their own kid and get another P.

WMB would be no worse than our #2 spec if he was getting rated, and Miami wants him, I don't why he's off the list as a serious spec.

I wouldn't trade XB straight up for Stanton - seriously, so they aren't getting all the crown jewels no matter what.

Want less guys, fine: WMB, Betts, Owens, Webster, RDLR

So take back Nava, Brentz, and Peavy for Owens - cool.

I can deal Gomes and Nava, keep Brentz to fill in in RF if SV or when Sizemore gets hurt. Keep Carp for back up 1B/LF, and my rotation isn't so prone to trouble if there are injuries. If we suck at the break or going into the end of the waiver period, deal Peavy then (Lackey too maybe).

Bo Sox Fan
03-13-2014, 01:39 PM
We got Revis!

Boston-Born
03-14-2014, 11:09 AM
We gave up Iglesias (a top 100 spec), and three other kids (2 seem decently promising) for Peavy. Peavy now has just one year at $14.5M left, not 1.5 like last year, since he's healthy if anything he might be worth more this season.

Betts at #10 spec is a serious piece, so is Webster and RDLR, and whatever we get for Peavy (Ranaudo level spec for instance).

Miami has to play someone at LF and we don't have anyone better than Nava and Brentz to offer, if they don't like it, they can fill in with their own kid and get another P.

WMB would be no worse than our #2 spec if he was getting rated, and Miami wants him, I don't why he's off the list as a serious spec.

I wouldn't trade XB straight up for Stanton - seriously, so they aren't getting all the crown jewels no matter what.

Want less guys, fine: WMB, Betts, Owens, Webster, RDLR

So take back Nava, Brentz, and Peavy for Owens - cool.

I can deal Gomes and Nava, keep Brentz to fill in in RF if SV or when Sizemore gets hurt. Keep Carp for back up 1B/LF, and my rotation isn't so prone to trouble if there are injuries. If we suck at the break or going into the end of the waiver period, deal Peavy then (Lackey too maybe).

Thats a trade I could get behind and I could see MIA going for.

Nomar
03-14-2014, 01:10 PM
Betts, WMB, Webster, RDLR, Ranaudo, Lavarnway is what I'd go for.

Owens obviously would be a nice guy to keep and Lavarnway is depth now more than a prospect for us with guys with promise like CV/Swihart/even Denney coming up over the next 5 years. But to the Marlins i think Lavarnway + Ranaudo can be as good as Owens. He's pretty unnecessary for them because they do have Heaney and Nicolino as future lefty rotation pieces.

bagwell368
03-14-2014, 01:31 PM
Betts, WMB, Webster, RDLR, Ranaudo, Lavarnway is what I'd go for.

Owens obviously would be a nice guy to keep and Lavarnway is depth now more than a prospect for us with guys with promise like CV/Swihart/even Denney coming up over the next 5 years. But to the Marlins i think Lavarnway + Ranaudo can be as good as Owens. He's pretty unnecessary for them because they do have Heaney and Nicolino as future lefty rotation pieces.

Lavarnway's days are numbered, he's a total no-op in any deal. Ranaudo alone is worth more than Lavarnway and Ranaudo since they have to cut someone else and pay a guy nobody believes in. Heck at least make it Wilson who could be a back end 6th inning guy in the bigs for a couple of years.

RedSoxtober
03-14-2014, 04:13 PM
Swihart is clearly quicker of foot than Vazquez, no doubt, but Vazquez is quicker then say Lavarnway by a good deal.
Not only that but at 6' 1", 175lbs he makes Buchholz look almost pudgy. Not exactly the physical build for a catcher IMO. I've had doubts about his ability to stick there for quite a while.


He's a frequent topic, and perhaps I'm sick of talk radio claiming he's a shoe in to hit 30 HR in 600 PA's. If I'm right about WMB and your right about GC, then the Sox are going to have to move XB over to 3B (not where I want him long term).
More importantly, the Marlins expressed their interest in WMB TWICE this offseason. If he's the name that gets them all warm and fuzzy I'll drive him to the airport to get it done. I'd rather have Cecchini getting on base 38% of the time than WMB swinging outside the zone for a chance to hit 20-25 bombs.

RedSoxtober
03-14-2014, 04:14 PM
Lavarnway's days are numbered, he's a total no-op in any deal. Ranaudo alone is worth more than Lavarnway and Ranaudo since they have to cut someone else and pay a guy nobody believes in. Heck at least make it Wilson who could be a back end 6th inning guy in the bigs for a couple of years.

I'm interested to see how he responds to splitting time at 1B. I think it's going to help him a fair bit with the bat.

bagwell368
03-14-2014, 08:49 PM
I'm interested to see how he responds to splitting time at 1B. I think it's going to help him a fair bit with the bat.

I hope so. I like the guy, and that might be his last chance. Probably just ends up playing Indie ball at some point.

Pittz
03-14-2014, 09:57 PM
I hate these Stanton threads because they just get me excited for something that in all likelihood isn't going to happen :sigh:

bagwell368
03-14-2014, 10:43 PM
I hate these Stanton threads because they just get me excited for something that in all likelihood isn't going to happen :sigh:

Remember Agon! He should give you faith. Too bad he wasn't quite the right guy. He was about 80% right however.

Best bet is for the Sox to stop spending 85% of its draft picks on P/SS/C and draft some 1B and COF's.

BostonSports96
03-15-2014, 03:47 PM
I hate these Stanton threads because they just get me excited for something that in all likelihood isn't going to happen :sigh:

x2

win red sox
03-16-2014, 12:32 PM
I can see the sox trading for Stanton(1 arb year left) after the 2015 season as Napoli, Victorino, and Ortiz(assuming he gets 1 year extension) are off the books. Chris Davis(Boras client) will be a free agent also that offseason and with most large market teams having a 1b under contract it would appear the sox could be a match.

RedSoxtober
03-16-2014, 06:42 PM
I can see the sox trading for Stanton(1 arb year left) after the 2015 season as Napoli, Victorino, and Ortiz(assuming he gets 1 year extension) are off the books. Chris Davis(Boras client) will be a free agent also that offseason and with most large market teams having a 1b under contract it would appear the sox could be a match.

I actually think that Stanton gets moved next year -- one year earlier. The Marlins M.O. has been to trade their "money" guy when he hits the 8-figure mark. Once Stanton's arb comps expand (next offseason) he's likely gone.

Norieaga
03-19-2014, 11:14 AM
Anyone think the Marlins may try to spite us after that recent incident involving our minor league lineup? I mean, they'd be stupid to if a trade ever goes down. Just some food for thought!

bagwell368
03-19-2014, 12:16 PM
Anyone think the Marlins may try to spite us after that recent incident involving our minor league lineup? I mean, they'd be stupid to if a trade ever goes down. Just some food for thought!

A GM would have to be an idiot to refuse the best package for a player that he has determined to deal. The owner is an idiot, so he might kibosh it - or he might figure he can crow about how he ripped off the Sox if the GM soothes him into accepting.

Chances are as RST said this will go down next year.

RedSoxtober
03-20-2014, 10:44 AM
^^ Agreed. They might be hesitant if they felt like they got screwed in a deal (e.g., when the Sox agreed to a deal with COL a few years ago and then used the car salesman's "my boss won't let me do it" line to wiggle out and the Rox wouldn't deal with us later), but not because they were disrespected in a ST game.

win red sox
04-28-2014, 11:58 PM
The COF positions have been disgusting in the field and at the plate, come June 1st if there has not been a serious improvement I would assume there would have to be some moves. Here our some ideas:

1) Cargo- contract 2014 10.5m, 2015 16m, 2016 17m, 2017 20m
With his arm and speed, RF should not be a problem.
Betts, Webster, Doubront, Brentz, B Johnson, Carp

2) Kemp- contract 2014-15 21m, 2016-2019 21.5m
His health would be the key, but playing LF should be easier on his body
Ranuado, S Mercedes, AJP, Gomes

While I would prefer Stanton, I don't think it's in Ben to gut the farm system. The Sox only have about 80m committed in 2016 and 15m 2017. So while Kemps contract is a little high maybe the sox could add more and have LA kick in around 10-15m.

Boston- While the farm system is deep, it lacks in the cof positions and power. Shane Victorino is an elite defensive RF who is signed at 13m a year through 2015, but I wonder if he is an everyday player due to his health. Victorino could straight platoon with Bradley and spell either COF position. With 4 position players(WMB,XB,JBJ,Vasquez) and possibly 3 starting pitchers (Lackey, Workman,Owens) making the league minimum in 2015 it should be no problem for Boston to absorb Kemp's and Cargo's contract and be able to extend Lester.

Colorado- Cargo is about to get expensive, so if they are going to unload him now is the time. Blackmon and Barnes have started out really well and Cuddyer should be back soon from the DL. Colorado also has David Dahl who appears to be a fast riser and could debut late 2015. Betts has the potential to be an elite leadoff hitter with plus defense at 2b, the combination of Tulo , Arenado, and Betts would be one the better defensive infields in the game. Webster who's sinker can be devasting at times, would fit in just fine behind potential studs Gray and Butler. Doubront is first time arb elgible and would provide insurance(J De La Rosa free agent 2015 and Morales who is made of glass). Brentz has the potential to be regular RF on a 2nd division team, while he is working on his approach he has plus bat speed, power to all fields, and a cannon for a rt arm. Carp provides cheap insurance for Morneau.

LA Dodgers- With 2 immoveable contracts(Crawford/Ethier) and with stud Joc Pederson tearing up AAA, someone has to be moved. Matt Kemp is the obvious choice, While he most likely will never go for 30/30 again he is still 4.0 to 4.5 war player if healthy. Put him in LF, DH once a week and he should be good to go. The Dodgers are about to get in a bidding war with the Yankees over Hanley and will need all the scratch they can get. Ranaudo has all the physical tools, but hasn't put it together yet. Gomes can Platoon with Crawford. AJP can back up Ellis(fedex is terrible). Mercedes has reportedly hit 100 mph and could be a fast riser once he learns a little control.

CF Bradley
2b Pedroia
dh Ortiz
1B Napoli
RF Cargo
LF Kemp
SS XB
3B WMB
C Vasquez/Ross

OF/1B Nava
Ut Herrera
OF Victorino
C Vasquez/Ross

Lester
Lackey
Peavy
Buccholz
Workman, RDLR, Capuano

bagwell368
04-29-2014, 08:12 AM
^ I wouldn't touch Kemp w/o say ~$8M a year coming from the Dodgers to pay his salary AND a smallish offer in players similar to yours. He's very risky IMO.

RedSoxtober
04-29-2014, 03:14 PM
The COF positions have been disgusting in the field and at the plate, come June 1st if there has not been a serious improvement I would assume there would have to be some moves. Here our some ideas:

1) Cargo- contract 2014 10.5m, 2015 16m, 2016 17m, 2017 20m
With his arm and speed, RF should not be a problem.
Betts, Webster, Doubront, Brentz, B Johnson, Carp
Six players for a guy who CLEARLY benefits greatly from the "Coors Effect" (.328/.387/.608 home vs .265/.319/.445 away)? WAY too much.


2) Kemp- contract 2014-15 21m, 2016-2019 21.5m
His health would be the key, but playing LF should be easier on his body
Ranuado, S Mercedes, AJP, Gomes
Four for Kemp? This is probably more reasonable given who is involved BUT... it really does not deal well with LAD's concerns IMO. I guess it's supposed to be primarily a salary dump but still it doesn't really explain why they'd want an expiring deal in AJP and Gomes (in an already crowded OF). I think the bidding war is a bit overstated here but let's assume you're right; I'd suggest that the $40M from Beckett, Billingsley, Haren, and Wilson deals expiring this year allow plenty of wiggle room for a franchise clearly intent on buying its way back to relevance.


Colorado- Cargo is about to get expensive, so if they are going to unload him now is the time. Blackmon and Barnes have started out really well and Cuddyer should be back soon from the DL. Colorado also has David Dahl who appears to be a fast riser and could debut late 2015. Betts has the potential to be an elite leadoff hitter with plus defense at 2b, the combination of Tulo , Arenado, and Betts would be one the better defensive infields in the game. Webster who's sinker can be devasting at times, would fit in just fine behind potential studs Gray and Butler. Doubront is first time arb elgible and would provide insurance(J De La Rosa free agent 2015 and Morales who is made of glass). Brentz has the potential to be regular RF on a 2nd division team, while he is working on his approach he has plus bat speed, power to all fields, and a cannon for a rt arm. Carp provides cheap insurance for Morneau.
While it's true that CarGo is about to get expensive you didn't explain their motivation adequately. The Rox payroll is about to be cut in half ($93M 2014, $48M in 2015, $44M in 2016) so they're hardly hampered by an escalation of $6-10M/yr over the next few seasons.


LA Dodgers- With 2 immoveable contracts(Crawford/Ethier) and with stud Joc Pederson tearing up AAA, someone has to be moved. Matt Kemp is the obvious choice, While he most likely will never go for 30/30 again he is still 4.0 to 4.5 war player if healthy. Put him in LF, DH once a week and he should be good to go. The Dodgers are about to get in a bidding war with the Yankees over Hanley and will need all the scratch they can get. Ranaudo has all the physical tools, but hasn't put it together yet. Gomes can Platoon with Crawford. AJP can back up Ellis(fedex is terrible). Mercedes has reportedly hit 100 mph and could be a fast riser once he learns a little control.
Mercedes is precisely the kind of arm the Sox trade at the deadline for a rental. I won't be surprised to see him move. As mentioned above, I don't quite buy the justification for AJP and Gomes in this deal. LAD would be better served waiting for Kemp to get his BA (and consequently OPS) up and landing a better deal. I'd also suggest that they'd be far more interested in taking back three players with AJP/Gomes swapped for a high ceiling prospect. On the Sox side... meh. Kemp has hit a few long balls but his slow start is just another warning sign on a list of reasons I'd not be interested (unless some big $$$ concessions were included).

win red sox
04-29-2014, 09:23 PM
^ I wouldn't touch Kemp w/o say ~$8M a year coming from the Dodgers to pay his salary AND a smallish offer in players similar to yours. He's very risky IMO.

It will be interesting to see what the dodgers do with there OF situation, and I do agree that Kemp is a huge gamble. I'm assuming if the Sox were interested acquiring him, they would go through his med history with a fine tooth comb.

I prefer Stanton in RF and Betts in Lf anyway, but because Betts has so much helium now I'm sure the Marlins would demand him.

Nomar
04-30-2014, 02:49 PM
I'd like to see us at least discuss a Heyward trade. He's lost confidence and clearly has mechanical issues to work on, but he still has a good approach and athleticism. Victorino isn't incompetent at all, but he's getting hurt pretty often and his injuries could hurt his range pretty easily, which is his biggest source of value I would say.

Heyward would be a risk, because he could never rebound, and he would still cost a good amount, but it's something to think about. He has a tremendous glove in RF, and has potential to be above average offensively still. Could be a long term solution in right at a much smaller price than Stanton.

Plus, if this were to ever happen, when Stanton hits free agency we could still sign him as a LF/1B where he's better off in the long run. Not sure we'd need him at that point... We'll see how WMB does offensively and how Devers projects. Just a theory.

ruckus16969
04-30-2014, 05:15 PM
The COF positions have been disgusting in the field and at the plate, come June 1st if there has not been a serious improvement I would assume there would have to be some moves. Here our some ideas:

1) Cargo- contract 2014 10.5m, 2015 16m, 2016 17m, 2017 20m
With his arm and speed, RF should not be a problem.
Betts, Webster, Doubront, Brentz, B Johnson, Carp

2) Kemp- contract 2014-15 21m, 2016-2019 21.5m
His health would be the key, but playing LF should be easier on his body
Ranuado, S Mercedes, AJP, Gomes

While I would prefer Stanton, I don't think it's in Ben to gut the farm system. The Sox only have about 80m committed in 2016 and 15m 2017. So while Kemps contract is a little high maybe the sox could add more and have LA kick in around 10-15m.

Boston- While the farm system is deep, it lacks in the cof positions and power. Shane Victorino is an elite defensive RF who is signed at 13m a year through 2015, but I wonder if he is an everyday player due to his health. Victorino could straight platoon with Bradley and spell either COF position. With 4 position players(WMB,XB,JBJ,Vasquez) and possibly 3 starting pitchers (Lackey, Workman,Owens) making the league minimum in 2015 it should be no problem for Boston to absorb Kemp's and Cargo's contract and be able to extend Lester.

Colorado- Cargo is about to get expensive, so if they are going to unload him now is the time. Blackmon and Barnes have started out really well and Cuddyer should be back soon from the DL. Colorado also has David Dahl who appears to be a fast riser and could debut late 2015. Betts has the potential to be an elite leadoff hitter with plus defense at 2b, the combination of Tulo , Arenado, and Betts would be one the better defensive infields in the game. Webster who's sinker can be devasting at times, would fit in just fine behind potential studs Gray and Butler. Doubront is first time arb elgible and would provide insurance(J De La Rosa free agent 2015 and Morales who is made of glass). Brentz has the potential to be regular RF on a 2nd division team, while he is working on his approach he has plus bat speed, power to all fields, and a cannon for a rt arm. Carp provides cheap insurance for Morneau.

LA Dodgers- With 2 immoveable contracts(Crawford/Ethier) and with stud Joc Pederson tearing up AAA, someone has to be moved. Matt Kemp is the obvious choice, While he most likely will never go for 30/30 again he is still 4.0 to 4.5 war player if healthy. Put him in LF, DH once a week and he should be good to go. The Dodgers are about to get in a bidding war with the Yankees over Hanley and will need all the scratch they can get. Ranaudo has all the physical tools, but hasn't put it together yet. Gomes can Platoon with Crawford. AJP can back up Ellis(fedex is terrible). Mercedes has reportedly hit 100 mph and could be a fast riser once he learns a little control.

CF Bradley
2b Pedroia
dh Ortiz
1B Napoli
RF Cargo
LF Kemp
SS XB
3B WMB
C Vasquez/Ross

OF/1B Nava
Ut Herrera
OF Victorino
C Vasquez/Ross

Lester
Lackey
Peavy
Buccholz
Workman, RDLR, Capuano

Then we'd have the MOST injury prone OF in the game. But we would have some serious talent if everyone was healthy

Bo Sox Fan
04-30-2014, 07:45 PM
Then we'd have the MOST injury prone OF in the game. But we would have some serious talent if everyone was healthy

This is what the Blue Jays say every offseason about there own Reyes, Bautista etc.. etc... but they continue to fail miserably because they get caught up in the "what if" game. "What if" he's healthy. "What if" he has a career year. The potential is there "if" he's healthy.

I want no part in my Boston Red Sox taking a page out of the Toronto Blue Jays scheme in placing all there money on a core of injury prone "but what if" talent. It's a recipe for complete disaster.

win red sox
04-30-2014, 09:12 PM
This is what the Blue Jays say every offseason about there own Reyes, Bautista etc.. etc... but they continue to fail miserably because they get caught up in the "what if" game. "What if" he's healthy. "What if" he has a career year. The potential is there "if" he's healthy.

I want no part in my Boston Red Sox taking a page out of the Toronto Blue Jays scheme in placing all there money on a core of injury prone "but what if" talent. It's a recipe for complete disaster.

No doubt it's a gamble, but what can the sox do? Maybe they do nothing and roll with Sizemore, Gomes, Carp, and Nava. While Victorino is great RF, I just wonder if he's an everyday player with his injuries.

Bo Sox Fan
05-01-2014, 01:58 AM
In 2015? ...

LF - Stanton
CF - Bradley Jr.
RF - Victorino / Sizemore platoon

... would be sexy.

RedSoxtober
05-01-2014, 09:34 AM
No doubt it's a gamble, but what can the sox do? Maybe they do nothing and roll with Sizemore, Gomes, Carp, and Nava. While Victorino is great RF, I just wonder if he's an everyday player with his injuries.

Huh? Seems odd that you'd despair Victorino's injuries taking him out of everyday player status and suggest that the only alternatives are other oft-injured players worth a gamble. Could it be that you're thinking of the most available players as the only alternatives... and they're most available because of issues like this?

**BoSox4Lifee**
05-01-2014, 11:57 AM
I wouldn't go for Kemp when we could pursue, and most likely get, either Cargo or Stanton. Yes, Kemp does produce when healthy but just by judging from his history and he is still kind of shaky, Stanton or Cargo would be our best bet.

Now between Cargo and Stanton, it'll come down to prices. I'd sure as hell would love to have either of them, but i know one is going to want more than the other.

win red sox
05-01-2014, 09:00 PM
I wouldn't go for Kemp when we could pursue, and most likely get, either Cargo or Stanton. Yes, Kemp does produce when healthy but just by judging from his history and he is still kind of shaky, Stanton or Cargo would be our best bet.

Now between Cargo and Stanton, it'll come down to prices. I'd sure as hell would love to have either of them, but i know one is going to want more than the other.

It would probably cost more in prospects and more of a financial commitment to acquire Stanton and to extend him, than to acquire both Kemp and Cargo. And Stanton is no iron man himself.