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grandsalami
03-08-2014, 06:47 PM
SportsCenter ‏@SportsCenter 1m
THIS JUST IN: Phil Jackson is leaning toward taking job with Knicks to become president of basketball operations. (via @stephenasmith)

Goose17
03-08-2014, 06:50 PM
Knicks win it all for the next seven years, take it to the bank.

Melo will be the new Jordan/Kobe, Jobe. Call him Melo the Jobe.

Knicks are saved!

Lakers + Giants
03-08-2014, 06:53 PM
This would guarantee melo remains a knick.

xxplayerxx23
03-08-2014, 06:57 PM
Knicks win it all for the next seven years, take it to the bank.

Melo will be the new Jordan/Kobe, Jobe. Call him Melo the Jobe.

Knicks are saved!

:drool:

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 06:57 PM
The Lakers are a disgrace

Goose17
03-08-2014, 07:00 PM
This feels like more of a desperation move to keep Melo more than anything else. It's not like they're making him head coach or something...

jsthornton7
03-08-2014, 07:01 PM
Arash Markazi ‏@ArashMarkazi 5m
Phil Jackson is essentially an unused consultant with the Lakers. If he goes to the Knicks it would be the Lakers' worst loss of the season.

Arash Markazi ‏@ArashMarkazi 1m
If given a similar role as Pat Riley in Miami, Phil Jackson would be the reason big free agents would chose to sign with the team he's with.

Completely agree with this.

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 07:02 PM
This feels like more of a desperation move to keep Melo more than anything else. It's not like they're making him head coach or something...

Hiring the best basketball coach in NBA history is a desperation move?

It's probably the best move the Knicks have made

Jetsguy
03-08-2014, 07:03 PM
Please happen!

John Walls Era
03-08-2014, 07:06 PM
Doesn't matter. Phil might be able to turn crap into gold, but James Dolan is making more crap than Phil can handle. Unless Dolan just becomes an "owner" and doesn't get hands on, the Knicks are still far from saved.

Im saying this if Knicks want to win a 'ship (which is what their goal should be --- thats what that kind of city should aspire for). Phil can probably get them to playoffs, so that goal is set too low.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 07:06 PM
Hiring the best basketball coach in NBA history is a desperation move?

It's probably the best move the Knicks have made

Hiring him as a coach would be the best move the Knicks have made. But that's not what is happening. With Dolan around, he'll just be an advisor, he'll be handcuffed by Dolans incompetence.

It's a very good move, but people are going to get carried away with it, as my first sarcastic post pointed out.

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 07:08 PM
Hiring him as a coach would be the best move the Knicks have made. But that's not what is happening.

It's a very good move, but people are going to get carried away with it, as my first sarcastic post pointed out.

I don't think this move can be carried away with....

They are hiring the best possible person for the most important position.

Phil Jackson will change what the Knicks have been for the last 20 years

John Walls Era
03-08-2014, 07:09 PM
God couldn't save the Knicks if Dolan is running things...

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 07:09 PM
This is a very sad day for Laker fans.

Flat out embarassing that the Fiance of the Majority OWNER of the Lakers has to work for the Knicks

IM so disgusted with the Lakers

jsthornton7
03-08-2014, 07:10 PM
One interesting thing to note is that when Jerry West went to GS and Pat Riley went to MIA, both were offered a % of the team. I wonder if NYK is offering that to Phil.

xxplayerxx23
03-08-2014, 07:11 PM
God couldn't save the Knicks if Dolan is running things...

True. But we all know phil must of been promised a pay Riley role. Phil wouldn't listen to Dolan

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 07:12 PM
I might take a break from the NBA after this development...

What a frickin joke

John Walls Era
03-08-2014, 07:12 PM
This is a very sad day for Laker fans.

Flat out embarassing that the Fiance of the Majority OWNER of the Lakers has to work for the Knicks

IM so disgusted with the Lakers

Thats what she gets for not having a penis. Jerry Buss obviously couldn't hand things over to anyone but his son.

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 07:13 PM
A % of the KNicks is worth WAYYY more than a % of the Heat

Im guessing he gets a nice salary

Supreme LA
03-08-2014, 07:14 PM
Hiring him as a coach would be the best move the Knicks have made. But that's not what is happening. With Dolan around, he'll just be an advisor, he'll be handcuffed by Dolans incompetence.

It's a very good move, but people are going to get carried away with it, as my first sarcastic post pointed out.

You don't know anything.

Believe me when I say that Phil would never take the job unless he had complete control of all basketball operations. Phil is a master at putting a team together and motivating players whether he is on the floor or not. Players win championships but organizations are just as big if a part of it. It's starts from the top and this could be the best move the Knicks have ever made.

As a Laker fan, this is just terrible news and I fear the Laker dark age will only be extended if the Lakers don't do something about this.

DillyDill
03-08-2014, 07:14 PM
Free agents will be flocking to the Knicks now with a genius basketball mind running things. I'm sad my Lakers missed out 😥

jsthornton7
03-08-2014, 07:15 PM
I don't see Phil taking any less than a % of the team like what Riley was offered or what Jerry West was offered. Could be a lower %, but still would need to be some sort of ownership part.

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 07:15 PM
Thats what she gets for not having a penis. Jerry Buss obviously couldn't hand things over to anyone but his son.

Just to educate you

Jerry Buss gave ownership of the Lakers to Jeanie Buss. It was simply his recommendation or wish that Jim Buss ran basketball operations.

THe sad thing is that Jim can't embrace the breadth of Basketball knowledge and royalty available to him from Phil Jackson

Instead he stubbornly ignores and alienates one of Laker Nations favorite basketball figures.

Literally EVERYONE in LA and even in the Lakers organization wants Phil except for one guy

Im so pissed right now

jsthornton7
03-08-2014, 07:18 PM
Just to educate you

Jerry Buss gave ownership of the Lakers to Jeanie Buss. It was simply his recommendation or wish that Jim Buss ran basketball operations.

THe sad thing is that Jim can't embrace the breadth of Basketball knowledge and royalty available to him from Phil Jackson

Instead he stubbornly ignores and alienates one of Laker Nations favorite basketball figures.

Literally EVERYONE in LA and even in the Lakers organization wants Phil except for one guy

Im so pissed right now

Just to educate you, Jerry set up the Lakers as a joint trust and divided it equally among his children. Jim was given control over ball ops while Jeanie was given control of the financial aspect. Jeannie is the Lakers NBA representative though, i.e Governess.

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 07:20 PM
Just to educate you, Jerry set up the Lakers as a joint trust and divided it equally among his children. Jim was given control over ball ops while Jeanie was given control of the financial aspect. Jeannie is the Lakers NBA representative though, i.e Governess.

Thanks for the education.

I guess the main point is that Jeanie has the authority to fire Jim and Hire Phil.

Im not suggesting she does that..... But ffs Jim Buss has to be the hard dead d bag Ive ever known of

I feel a little bad for Jeanie. I know this has got to be killing her

jsthornton7
03-08-2014, 07:21 PM
Thanks for the education.

I guess the main point is that Jeanie has the authority to fire Jim and Hire Phil.

Im not suggesting she does that..... But ffs Jim Buss has to be the hard dead d bag Ive ever known of

I feel a little bad for Jeanie. I know this has got to be killing her

Yeah, I don't get why Jeanie can't have more power. She is technically the Lakers president.

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 07:24 PM
You heard it from me first:

This sets the table for LeBron to join the Knicks

What a joke the Lakers have become

Bruno
03-08-2014, 07:37 PM
Knicks could be interesting the season after next, they have A LOT of cap space. if dolan doesn't get in the way Jackson could build a legit contender for 2015-2016.

Rndy
03-08-2014, 07:40 PM
Phil don't do it! If you're going to join NY FO wait 10 years until they have draft picks! Well this would be great for NY possibly who knows how much of an impact Phil had on CHI and LA drafting and developing department. If he can get the Knicks to stop trading every future asset they have more mediocre upgrades It will all be worth it for Knicks fans.

I wonder how you even interview for that job. QUESTION! You have a expiring decently good point guard, you have a 100+ million dollar PF who already had destroyed knees before we signed him. Should we keep our amnesty clause around because he's never going to last or should we use it on the expiring point guard so we can sign a defensive Center who way overrated after just beating Miami.

Answer: ummm keep the Amnesty duh who would be stupid enough to use it with Amare around. :cricket:

smood999
03-08-2014, 07:42 PM
God couldn't save the Knicks if Dolan is running things...

Sterling was saved and he was even worse than Dolan...

Rndy
03-08-2014, 07:47 PM
Just to educate you, Jerry set up the Lakers as a joint trust and divided it equally among his children. Jim was given control over ball ops while Jeanie was given control of the financial aspect. Jeannie is the Lakers NBA representative though, i.e Governess.

Yep he does make some good points though it's pretty ridiculous. You have to wonder if Phil just rubs FO people the wrong way. The guy was going for a three peat for the second time and the Bulls gm Krause ****ing hated his guts and forever ruined his reputation in basketball for ruining one of the best teams ever all because of his hate for Phil Jackson. You really have to hate someone to skip winning a 4th ring in a row just so you don't have to work with him for another year. It's not like the Laker situation where they lost for acouple years the Bulls WERE winning and they broke the team up because of Krause vs Phil.

lpdunks8
03-08-2014, 07:51 PM
This is a very sad day for Laker fans.

Flat out embarassing that the Fiance of the Majority OWNER of the Lakers has to work for the Knicks

IM so disgusted with the Lakers

I agree. However; there are family dynamics at play. To be frank; sometimes fathers (Dr. Buss said "anybody but Phil") and brothers don't like the guy getting it in with their daughter/sister.

I'm sure Jeanie would fire her brother from the Pres. of BBall Ops position and hire Phil. However; the whole board (her siblings and some others) would need to sign off on the firing. Blood is thicker than water at times.

It's a soap opera.

Avenged
03-08-2014, 07:54 PM
Wow. Knicks get a gem. Wtf lakers? How the **** do you allow this..

DillyDill
03-08-2014, 07:55 PM
Yep he does make some good points though it's pretty ridiculous. You have to wonder if Phil just rubs FO people the wrong way. The guy was going for a three peat for the second time and the Bulls gm Krause ****ing hated his guts and forever ruined his reputation in basketball for ruining one of the best teams ever all because of his hate for Phil Jackson. You really have to hate someone to skip winning a 4th ring in a row just so you don't have to work with him for another year. It's not like the Laker situation where they lost for acouple years the Bulls WERE winning and they broke the team up because of Krause vs Phil.

I all always wanted to know why the bulls dynasty broke up. Do you think if it wasn't a clash between Krause and Phil that the MJ lead dynasty could have kept rolling?

jimm120
03-08-2014, 07:55 PM
I don't think this move can be carried away with....

They are hiring the best possible person for the most important position.

Phil Jackson will change what the Knicks have been for the last 20 years

Last 20??? Knicks had Ewing till 2000. They were relevant till 2001. And they were relevant in 2010-2013.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-08-2014, 07:57 PM
Knicks is back!

TeamSeattle
03-08-2014, 08:00 PM
Give Phil full control and my Knicks will be in good shape.

still1ballin
03-08-2014, 08:00 PM
The Knicks are back!

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 08:04 PM
Countdown till Lebron is Knicks

Rndy
03-08-2014, 08:18 PM
I all always wanted to know why the bulls dynasty broke up. Do you think if it wasn't a clash between Krause and Phil that the MJ lead dynasty could have kept rolling?

I have no doubt they could have won one more ring in 1999 after that I believe they would have been done. But they also lost a few rings because of Jordans first retirement really impressive how the GOAT just left prime years on the table came back and did it again. That is why he's the goat I guess.

shep33
03-08-2014, 08:23 PM
Great for the Knicks. I wonder how much control Dolan will give him though.

As for the Lakers... my god this is idiotic

redsoxknicks
03-08-2014, 08:24 PM
Too soon to know if this is true or not, but I sure hope it is.

SO many great things about this if true, including Phil is probably the only person to whom Dolan would relinquish control. Phil would require it plus a huge salary.

Such a win for everyone if we can nudge Dolan out of the way at all. Master plan.

blastmasta26
03-08-2014, 08:24 PM
Great for the Knicks. I wonder how much control Dolan will give him though.

As for the Lakers... my god this is idiotic

I think Phil would only accept under the condition that he has full control.

abe_froman
03-08-2014, 08:25 PM
that would be huge,melo would stay for sure if that happened...i could also see it becoming a very attractive destination of players

....but i'm always abit skeptical of any report/prediction that isnt wojo

ohreally
03-08-2014, 08:25 PM
Way too early and a bit presumptuous. SAS has been wrong before, and Phil has never been in the FO. Knicks still have few draft picks and at this point they basically have no one of any consequence on the team, after Melo, that might be on the team in 2015.
That's a lot of work to do. Basically they will need a center, a power forward, a point guard, a shooting guard unless you're sold on Shumpert, and a capable bench. Unless they do get LeBron I don't see that this will be a quick turnaround.
I actually wonder about Phil 's motivation here. Have to figure there's at least a bit of worry that Riley might be getting ahead of him.
Yeah, pretty obviously a much better move for the Knicks than they've made in a LONG while if it happens, but I'll hold off on saying they'll be contenders right away. And the Jackson/Dolan dynamic? Good times for the flys on those walls.

LakerShow
03-08-2014, 08:30 PM
Stupid ****ing jimbaco.

DillyDill
03-08-2014, 08:30 PM
I have no doubt they could have won one more ring in 1999 after that I believe they would have been done. But they also lost a few rings because of Jordans first retirement really impressive how the GOAT just left prime years on the table came back and did it again. That is why he's the goat I guess.

Man your right just thinking about is ridiculously insane. The GOAT should have had 9 rings Wow...It's a sin and a shame he left us wondering like this smh. But it's interesting how things unfolded because if MJ keeps winning no Phil for Lakers which means no 3peat

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 08:32 PM
Phil will hire a great coach and assistant coaches.

He will implement the triangle and start keeping/acquiring players that best fit the system.

Carmelo Anthony, Chandler, Shumpert would all work in the Trinagle.

Felton will be gone, Barfnani will be gone.

Overnight Knicks will be a contender in the East

Jamiecballer
03-08-2014, 08:35 PM
This seems like a desperate play to keep Melo to me and it will probably work.

Rndy
03-08-2014, 08:39 PM
Phil would be a huge get but I warn Knicks fans not to think so short term. Right now Knicks roster is a mess bad contracts and no future assets if Phil is really going to do the right thing it's going to take 2-3 years to get away from the bad deals, sign some players, and develop your young guys. You then have to ask yourself does keeping Melo make you a better team? By the time you're ready to contend for a ring Melo could be 33 years old I'd probably keep him if it was my call but I could see NY moving on. I believe 2015 is the only pick NY has for awhile without Melo that team has a damn good chance at a number 1 pick in what looks to be another great draft. It's something to think about for sure.

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 08:40 PM
How many idiots are going to say hiring the greatest NBA mind in history a 'desperation' move?

This is the only good move the Knicks have made in recent memory

Rndy
03-08-2014, 08:41 PM
Phil will hire a great coach and assistant coaches.

He will implement the triangle and start keeping/acquiring players that best fit the system.

Carmelo Anthony, Chandler, Shumpert would all work in the Trinagle.

Felton will be gone, Barfnani will be gone.

Overnight Knicks will be a contender in the East

Might sound funny but I've always felt Jimmer would be one of the best Triangle Point guards in the game. He's basically Steve Kerr he might create a little better than Kerr but it's pretty ****ing close. If a team ran the Triangle in today's game Jimmer would be one of my first options to run it.

nycericanguy
03-08-2014, 08:41 PM
Phil would be a huge get but I warn Knicks fans not to think so short term. Right now Knicks roster is a mess bad contracts and no future assets if Phil is really going to do the right thing it's going to take 2-3 years to get away from the bad deals, sign some players, and develop your young guys. You then have to ask yourself does keeping Melo make you a better team? By the time you're ready to contend for a ring Melo could be 33 years old I'd probably keep him if it was my call but I could see NY moving on. I believe 2015 is the only pick NY has for awhile without Melo that team has a damn good chance at a number 1 pick in what looks to be another great draft. It's something to think about for sure.

um Melo isn't even 30 yet...lol

Knicks will have TONS of cap in just over a year when Melo is still under 31.

Jamiecballer
03-08-2014, 08:42 PM
How many idiots are going to say hiring the greatest NBA mind in history a 'desperation' move?

This is the only good move the Knicks have made in recent memory

Just because it reeks of desperation doesn't mean it will be a bad move.

Rndy
03-08-2014, 08:44 PM
um Melo isn't even 30 yet...lol

Knicks will have TONS of cap in just over a year when Melo is still under 31.

Ok just saying man I don't believe the team is as easy of a fix as you guys are acting like it is. If Phil brings in a Triangle offense you have a lot of players to develop for it. Triangle offense isn't meant for ISO players Phil had to make adjustments to keep Kobe happy a few times a game but he's not going to do it for 3-4 guys on the Knicks roster.

jsthornton7
03-08-2014, 08:47 PM
um Melo isn't even 30 yet...lol

Knicks will have TONS of cap in just over a year when Melo is still under 31.

Melo will be 31 during next year's playoffs. His b'day is 5/29/84

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 08:48 PM
Might sound funny but I've always felt Jimmer would be one of the best Triangle Point guards in the game. He's basically Steve Kerr he might create a little better than Kerr but it's pretty ****ing close. If a team ran the Triangle in today's game Jimmer would be one of my first options to run it.

Agreed

TheNumber37
03-08-2014, 08:48 PM
Melo would certainly stay. Interesting to see what the team would look like, I assume he'd first the triangle on whoever the coach is.

Rndy
03-08-2014, 08:49 PM
Agreed

I agree with you agreeing with my great idea. :hi5:

NYKNYGNYY
03-08-2014, 08:49 PM
Him in your organization is always a good...... Let's not forget woody is still the coach...... Maybe he can learn

Rndy
03-08-2014, 08:52 PM
Melo would certainly stay. Interesting to see what the team would look like, I assume he'd first the triangle on whoever the coach is.

Maybe the Knicks can steal another DEN Nugget? Sorry Denver we're going to need Brian Shaw thanks for getting him ready for us! Think about it Shaw is probably the best active Triangle guy around right now. And to add to that he had the privilege to be coaching next to one of the best active defensive coaches for a season under Vogel. I'd say Shaw would be a home run hire if you're going to run the Triangle and you have to believe he's learned a lot about defense between Phils great defensive teams and Vogels.

ManRam
03-08-2014, 08:52 PM
Do we know if Phil is actually a great talent evaluator? I mean, great coach, obviously, but the things are a bit different.

Sounds like he'll be paid a ton, and get final say. Though, might not have the formal title of GM or whatever.

Surprised it's happening tho. Didn't seem like the guy to jump into a messy situation.

Rndy
03-08-2014, 08:53 PM
Him in your organization is always a good...... Let's not forget woody is still the coach...... Maybe he can learn

Yeah learn to get the actual coach they hire his coffee. I'm sure it will be some form of ISO coffee run.

abe_froman
03-08-2014, 08:54 PM
Maybe the Knicks can steal another DEN Nugget? Sorry Denver we're going to need Brian Shaw thanks for getting him ready for us! Think about it Shaw is probably the best active Triangle guy around right now. And to add to that he had the privilege to be coaching next to one of the best active defensive coaches for a season under Vogel. I'd say Shaw would be a home run hire if you're going to run the Triangle and you have to believe he's learned a lot about defense between Phils great defensive teams and Vogels.
i could see him just taking kurt rambis until shaw gets fired

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 08:55 PM
Do we know if Phil is actually a great talent evaluator? I mean, great coach, obviously, but the things are a bit different.

Sounds like he'll be paid a ton, and get final say. Though, might not have the formal title of GM or whatever.

Surprised it's happening tho. Didn't seem like the guy to jump into a messy situation.

Phil was the one filling out all the teams he was on.

He is tremendous at filling out a roster with players to compliment superstars.

IM boycotting the Lakers

Rndy
03-08-2014, 08:56 PM
Do we know if Phil is actually a great talent evaluator? I mean, great coach, obviously, but the things are a bit different.

Sounds like he'll be paid a ton, and get final say. Though, might not have the formal title of GM or whatever.

Surprised it's happening tho. Didn't seem like the guy to jump into a messy situation.

Nope we have no idea only Klause, Reinsdorf, Jerry Buss, and Kupchak know for sure.

Rndy
03-08-2014, 08:58 PM
i could see him just taking kurt rambis until shaw gets fired

Great point didn't even think about him. I'm sure you can find many retired players who had success in that system hell Fisher can't play forever I wouldn't make him a HC right away their not Nets stupid but Fisher would be an amazing candidate for an assistant coach running a triangle who better than a guy who won 5 rings with it?

GiantsSwaGG
03-08-2014, 09:03 PM
With Dolan being the owner, God couldn't even save the Knicks

FYL_McVeezy
03-08-2014, 09:05 PM
Do we know if Phil is actually a great talent evaluator? I mean, great coach, obviously, but the things are a bit different.

Sounds like he'll be paid a ton, and get final say. Though, might not have the formal title of GM or whatever.

Surprised it's happening tho. Didn't seem like the guy to jump into a messy situation.

He has a special place in his heart for the Knicks I guess LOL.....we'll see what happens

ManRam
03-08-2014, 09:06 PM
Phil was the one filling out all the teams he was on.

He is tremendous at filling out a roster with players to compliment superstars.

Can you back up the notion that he was the one making moves in LAL, because I don't recall that being the case. It seemed like he was pretty hands off and wanted to focus on the coaching for most of his time there.

I don't think your comment is true. I mean, it's not a factor in Chicago at all. Krause was the guy making the moves there.

Phil went to LAL, who already had Shaq, Kobe, Fisher, Horry, Fox, Harper, Rice, etc., etc. He wasn't the guy who brought in Malone or Payton, that was Mitch (for better or worse). Kupchak was a true and true GM who was allowed to make the moves he did and had the full backing of Bus. Kobe hated Mitch for a period of time there, suggesting that it was indeed Mitch making the personnel moves, but the Lakers still stuck by Mitch and allowed him to make the moves he wanted. He nixed trading Bynum for Kidd. He was the guy pulling the strings in the Ariza deal. He made the Gasol trade.

I will say that I say all of that with the obvious inability to actually know what's going on behind closed doors, but I rarely if ever got the impression he was a factor with player personnel moves.

We've seen great coaches go into FO positions and really not do well at all. I mean, it's a good move, but I'm not as convinced that this is franchise altering.

EDIT: I'm sure the idea is that it works out like Riley in Miami...because it sounds quite similar to that. I'm not saying it won't or can't, I'm just saying that I don't know if there's evidence suggesting it will be.

$GangGr33n$
03-08-2014, 09:07 PM
IF Phil takes the job that must mean theres an agreement between he & Dolan that Dolan will shut the **** up and stay out the way. If Dolan backs out of the agreement Phil just leaves as we know he would do without a second thought.

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 09:09 PM
Can you back up the notion that he was the one making moves in LAL, because I don't recall that being the case. It seemed like he was pretty hands off and wanted to focus on the coaching for most of his time there.

I don't think your comment is true. I mean, it's not a factor in Chicago at all. Krause was the guy making the moves there.

Phil went to LAL, who already had Shaq, Kobe, Fisher, Horry, Fox, Harper, Rice, etc., etc. He wasn't the guy who brought in Malone or Payton, that was Mitch (for better or worse). Kupchak was a true and true GM who was allowed to make the moves he did and had the full backing of Bus. Kobe hated Mitch for a period of time there, suggesting that it was indeed Mitch making the personnel moves, but the Lakers still stuck by Mitch and allowed him to make the moves he wanted. He nixed trading Bynum for Kidd. He was the guy pulling the strings in the Ariza deal. He made the Gasol trade.

I will say that I say all of that with the obvious inability to actually know what's going on behind closed doors, but I rarely if ever got the impression he was a factor with player personnel moves.

We've seen great coaches go into FO positions and really not do well at all. I mean, it's a good move, but I'm not as convinced that this is franchise altering.

You are trying to tell me that after 4 or 5 rings Phil Jackson wasn't consulted on major trades?

Give me a break

If people find a problem with this move for the Knicks then people can find problems with anything!

ManRam
03-08-2014, 09:10 PM
You are trying to tell me that after 4 or 5 rings Phil Jackson wasn't consulted on major trades?

Give me a break

If people find a problem with this move for the Knicks then people can find problems with anything!

1. I'm not saying I have a problem with it. I merely said "how can we be sure he's a great talent evaluator".
2. I'm sure he was consulted. To what extent? Who knows? Those GMs were STRONG GMs, in the sense that they had a ton of power and strong backings from their front offices :shrug:

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 09:13 PM
1. I'm not saying I have a problem with it. I merely said "how can we be sure he's a great talent evaluator".
2. I'm sure he was consulted. To what extent? Who knows? Those GMs were STRONG GMs, in the sense that they had a ton of power and strong backings from their front offices :shrug:

Basketball is not an individual sport.

Winning is about building a cohesive team within a good system and thats what Phil Jackson does

It's not about 'evaluating talent'

blastmasta26
03-08-2014, 09:33 PM
Basketball is not an individual sport.

Winning is about building a cohesive team within a good system and thats what Phil Jackson does

It's not about 'evaluating talent'

You're saying that you don't need to evaluate talent in order to build a good team?

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 09:53 PM
I said that Phil Jackson will be a tremendous president that will put together winning teams. That's more important than evaluating individual talent.

Phenom1
03-08-2014, 10:21 PM
Yea idk why you guys are going crazy on phil. First of all, for the lakers fans going crazy, chill the hell out. Phil hasn't even worked for lakers in the last 3 years or so, so idk why you guys are acting like we are losing him. You can't lose what you don't have. And what makes you guys think that his a good talent evaluator? not once did i hear that his the one who filled out his roster. In fact I remember him saying he doesn't like getting involved with the roster situation cuz its the GM's job. I think you guys are overrating him. Yes his good at controlling ego's, but I dont think his as good as jerry west and popovich in terms of great basketball mind. His "name," will certainly attract players though.

TorontoHuskies
03-08-2014, 10:24 PM
I would love to see how good he is with out the leagues best player so I welcome this move.

Hulk6
03-08-2014, 10:25 PM
This move may end up what sways Kevin Love from LA to NY

DillyDill
03-08-2014, 10:46 PM
This move may end up what sways Kevin Love from LA to NY

Agreed we kiss our 15 plan goodbye Love won't be coming. I can only imagine Phil's sales pitch to him with Mell

Bruno
03-08-2014, 11:06 PM
Do we know if Phil is actually a great talent evaluator? I mean, great coach, obviously, but the things are a bit different.

Sounds like he'll be paid a ton, and get final say. Though, might not have the formal title of GM or whatever.

Surprised it's happening tho. Didn't seem like the guy to jump into a messy situation.

he rejoined a Laker team in 2005 that had just gone 34-48 without him.

sunsfan88
03-09-2014, 12:14 AM
I hope he goes there. I feel bad for the Knicks even though they have some obnoxious fans. Still, even Knicks fans deserve some joy in life.

Plus I'm all for making the East any better.

KnickaBocka.44
03-09-2014, 12:27 AM
You're saying that you don't need to evaluate talent in order to build a good team?

Considering the fact that he is credited with being the best at applying a non-traditional system, it would be expected that he prioritizes different skill sets.

Jamiecballer
03-09-2014, 12:34 AM
You're saying that you don't need to evaluate talent in order to build a good team?

no. he's saying "don't press me when i've made an ambiguous statement you disagree with" lol

east fb knicks
03-09-2014, 01:52 AM
Phil don't do it! If you're going to join NY FO wait 10 years until they have draft picks! Well this would be great for NY possibly who knows how much of an impact Phil had on CHI and LA drafting and developing department. If he can get the Knicks to stop trading every future asset they have more mediocre upgrades It will all be worth it for Knicks fans.

I wonder how you even interview for that job. QUESTION! You have a expiring decently good point guard, you have a 100+ million dollar PF who already had destroyed knees before we signed him. Should we keep our amnesty clause around because he's never going to last or should we use it on the expiring point guard so we can sign a defensive Center who way overrated after just beating Miami.

Answer: ummm keep the Amnesty duh who would be stupid enough to use it with Amare around. :cricket:

:laugh: epic

John Walls Era
03-09-2014, 01:54 AM
Sterling was saved and he was even worse than Dolan...

Sterling is a worse human being, but I don't think he really thought he was good at making bball decisions. Dolan, a POS himself, thinks hes making great moves. I don't know if Sterling makes any bball decisions.

kobe4thewinbang
03-09-2014, 02:09 AM
I still say Carmelo leaves.

Phenom1
03-09-2014, 02:47 AM
I still say Carmelo leaves.

Yea his definitely going to bulls. Too perfect of a situation for me honestly.

Denver-boy
03-09-2014, 03:03 AM
Cuz this workout great for Micheal Jordan. Phil wont help the Knicks win more games, unless they allstars in Newyork

Kashmir13579
03-09-2014, 03:33 AM
I really can't get my hopes up for something like this.. Too good to be true, if you're a Knicks fan..

Rndy
03-09-2014, 04:26 AM
:laugh: epic

Thanks :) I was hoping nobody would take that seriously I hope Phil goes to NYK I love Phil Jackson. Bulls already have a great FO and Lakers for whatever reason don't want him insecurities most likely. Phil Jackson needs to be in basketball and not waste his talents. Can't think of a team more deserving than NY arguably one of the most loyal fan bases who have had to deal with FO after FO trading every asset for marginal short term gains while hurting their future way more than ever helping the present. If Phil can get NY back on track kudos to Phil.

There was a reason Phil wanted Melo so bad when he was coaching LA he has a plan for Melo and I'm interested to see what that plan is. Will Melo stay in NY? that is the biggest question it's not going to be an easy quick fix I realize you guys have cap space in 2015 but that isn't always the end all to be all eventually you need to gather assets and develop those guys or you will be right back in this position again.

The NBA is a better place when teams like NY, Boston, Chicago, and LA are all good and hopefully it isn't too long before those teams are back at the top.

xxplayerxx23
03-09-2014, 07:12 AM
I hope he goes there. I feel bad for the Knicks even though they have some obnoxious fans. Still, even Knicks fans deserve some joy in life.

Plus I'm all for making the East any better.


Yeah cuz the suns have had all that champinship joy lol

D-Leethal
03-09-2014, 09:13 AM
I still say Carmelo leaves.

Nobody is leaving Phil Jackson

xxplayerxx23
03-09-2014, 09:21 AM
Nobody is leaving Phil Jackson

Unless Phil doesn't want melo.

D-Leethal
03-09-2014, 09:46 AM
Unless Phil doesn't want melo.

If thats the case than the Knicks are leaving Melo, not vice versa. Nobody is walking away from Phil Jackson.

xxplayerxx23
03-09-2014, 09:55 AM
If thats the case than the Knicks are leaving Melo, not vice versa. Nobody is walking away from Phil Jackson.

Pretty much agree. Bulls is very nice place for melo but Phil will 100% Able to bring FAs in

KnicksYanks
03-09-2014, 11:20 AM
Just saw the New York post say it is very close to being done

torocan
03-09-2014, 11:37 AM
If thats the case than the Knicks are leaving Melo, not vice versa. Nobody is walking away from Phil Jackson.

Agreed.

I suspect if you went down the list of most NBA players' bucket lists, they would be (in no particular order)...

Play for Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, or Doc Rivers.
Play with Michael Jordan, Kobe, Shaq or Lebron.

If you're a Star/Superstar, how do you NOT take the opportunity to play for Phil Jackson if you're not on a championship caliber team? Sure, some might go to Miami, Spurs, OKC, etc, but I have no doubt that some will choose PJ just because he's PJ.

RipCity32
03-09-2014, 12:25 PM
Good for the Knicks, That's huge. I was really hoping that Detroit was going to let him run the Pistons. He probably said **** that though lol.

xxplayerxx23
03-09-2014, 01:12 PM
Good for the Knicks, That's huge. I was really hoping that Detroit was going to let him run the Pistons. He probably said **** that though lol.

Josh smith and Brandon Jennings being a majorty of that reason probably lol

RipCity32
03-09-2014, 01:17 PM
Josh smith and Brandon Jennings being a majorty of that reason probably lol

For sure

xxplayerxx23
03-09-2014, 01:17 PM
For sure

At least you have Drummond :drool:

RipCity32
03-09-2014, 01:23 PM
At least you have Drummond :drool:

If it wasn't for him I honestly couldn't watch anymore. Josh Smith will make you hate basketball.

JLynn943
03-09-2014, 01:26 PM
Aren't the Knicks stuck with a bunch of bad contracts? If Phil is there long enough maybe he can get that team turned around, but there pretty much isn't a single position where that team is set if Melo leaves.

xxplayerxx23
03-09-2014, 01:27 PM
Aren't the Knicks stuck with a bunch of bad contracts? If Phil is there long enough maybe he can get that team turned around, but there pretty much isn't a single position where that team is set if Melo leaves.

Literally everyone outside of two people expire after next season so I don't think it's bad contract wise

xxplayerxx23
03-09-2014, 01:28 PM
If it wasn't for him I honestly couldn't watch anymore. Josh Smith will make you hate basketball.

Yeah josh smith tends to do that to you. Haha

J4KOP99
03-09-2014, 01:51 PM
I still don't believe this. Phil is married to Jeannie buss. They live out in Los Angeles and Montana. He is going to move away from her AND compete against her?

And what would Phil even gain from this? He's too smart to jump on a sinking ship.

He really wants to go through a rebuilding process?

xxplayerxx23
03-09-2014, 02:00 PM
I still don't believe this. Phil is married to Jeannie buss. They live out in Los Angeles and Montana. He is going to move away from her AND compete against her?

And what would Phil even gain from this? He's too smart to jump on a sinking ship.

He really wants to go through a rebuilding process?

You sound a little bitter? It's not for sure until Phil says it, rumors all around have it as close to done

BigCityofDreams
03-09-2014, 02:58 PM
I still don't believe this. Phil is married to Jeannie buss. They live out in Los Angeles and Montana. He is going to move away from her AND compete against her?

And what would Phil even gain from this? He's too smart to jump on a sinking ship.

He really wants to go through a rebuilding process?

Just adding onto his legacy. Phil is at the point in his life where every accomplishment just adds to his great resume. If he can turn the Knicks around and they win multiple chips 3 yrs from now he once again proves his greatness. Can you imagine if the role player on the last Knick team to win a championship returns to the Garden and starts a new Knick dynasty.

For Phil it's about being wanted. It's not crazy to think that LA would be his first choice because as you pointed out everything is there for him. But Jim won't allow it to happen. If you are PJ and you want to get back in basketball where else can he go besides a place he was apart of. He had opportunities to go to other clubs but turned them down.

xxplayerxx23
03-09-2014, 03:12 PM
If Phil built a champinship team in NY after how long they have waited he will be a god.

Hawkeye15
03-09-2014, 03:32 PM
Basketball is not an individual sport.

Winning is about building a cohesive team within a good system and thats what Phil Jackson does

It's not about 'evaluating talent'

this is a HUGE part of being a GM dude, what are you talking about? Every great team has to have 2-3 "star" players. What about the rest? Where do you get them?

Goose17
03-09-2014, 03:32 PM
If Phil built a champinship team in NY after how long they have waited he will be a god.

Yep.

It's pretty much that simple. He would be one of the basketball gods, his legend echoing through courts for eternity.

Hawkeye15
03-09-2014, 03:37 PM
Just adding onto his legacy. Phil is at the point n his life where every accomplishment just adds to his great resume. If he can turn the Knicks around and they with multiple chips 3 yrs from now he once again prove his greatest. Can you imagine if the role player on the last Knick team to win a championship returns to the Garden and starts a knew Knick dynasty.

For Phil it's about being wanted. It's not crazy to think that LA would be his first choice because as you pointed out everything is there for him. But Jim won't allow it to happen. If you are PJ and you want to get back in basketball where else can he go besides a place he was apart of. He had opportunities to go to other clubs but turned them down.

Could be Phil just wants to get back into the NBA, and this was the best non-coaching opportunity for him. Obviously playing his entire career for the Knicks tells us he has an affinity for the organization.

BigCityofDreams
03-09-2014, 03:45 PM
Could be Phil just wants to get back into the NBA, and this was the best non-coaching opportunity for him. Obviously playing his entire career for the Knicks tells us he has an affinity for the organization.

True that plays a role as well. He enjoyed his time on those Knicks

Side note: My bad for the typos. I always tell myself to slow down but I never do.

D-Leethal
03-09-2014, 04:16 PM
I still don't believe this. Phil is married to Jeannie buss. They live out in Los Angeles and Montana. He is going to move away from her AND compete against her?

And what would Phil even gain from this? He's too smart to jump on a sinking ship.

He really wants to go through a rebuilding process?

I think any GM's goal would be to take over a rebuilding process. Thats the aspiration of the job - design a roster and build it into a champion. Coaching is one thing but as a GM this is what you would want.

TrueFan420
03-09-2014, 04:28 PM
One interesting thing to note is that when Jerry West went to GS and Pat Riley went to MIA, both were offered a % of the team . I wonder if NYK is offering that to Phil.

Um what? Link that backs that up please...

CityofChaos
03-09-2014, 04:33 PM
This feels like more of a desperation move to keep Melo more than anything else. It's not like they're making him head coach or something...

How are you a Warriors fan and talk as if you don't know that Jerry West was hired to do essentially the same thing Phil Jackson would be doing w/ the Knicks which is basically overseeing all basketball related decisions. Look how well that turned out for the Warriors who used to be just as bad as the Knicks. Jackson is one of the greatest basketball minds EVER.

Good addition by NY if he agrees to help.

lpdunks8
03-09-2014, 04:58 PM
I still don't believe this. Phil is married to Jeannie buss. They live out in Los Angeles and Montana. He is going to move away from her AND compete against her?

And what would Phil even gain from this? He's too smart to jump on a sinking ship.

He really wants to go through a rebuilding process?

Why are you surprised? He was going to be the president of basketball ops for the Kings/Sonics if that franchise moved from Sacramento to Seattle.

He wants that job. Jim Buss isn't resigning from it and the other Buss siblings probably won't fire him. So, he has to go to a different team.

torocan
03-09-2014, 05:05 PM
Why are you surprised? He was going to be the president of basketball ops for the Kings/Sonics if that franchise moved from Sacramento to Seattle.

He wants that job. Jim Buss isn't resigning from it and the other Buss siblings probably won't fire him. So, he has to go to a different team.

Let's also not forget that the Lakers shut the door in his face.

I have ZERO doubt that Phil Jackson would have taken the Lakers over the Knicks or any other team, however when Jim Buss and Co. slams the door in your face, you go where the opportunities are... you can't expect him to twiddle his thumbs waiting for Jim Buss to get his head together.

And given that Jeannie is his fiance, I'm sure she understands how much of an insult it was for him to believe that the HC job was his, but have the rug yanked out from under him for Mike D'Antoni. She can't expect Phil to hang around forever for a non-existant Lakers job for her.

Phil has 13 rings. He can go wherever the heck he wants.

ohreally
03-09-2014, 06:40 PM
How are you a Warriors fan and talk as if you don't know that Jerry West was hired to do essentially the same thing Phil Jackson would be doing w/ the Knicks which is basically overseeing all basketball related decisions. Look how well that turned out for the Warriors who used to be just as bad as the Knicks. Jackson is one of the greatest basketball minds EVER.

Good addition by NY if he agrees to help.

But Jerry West is a proven great mind off the court, and the team ha already taken turns in the right direction. Phil has proven to be a great motivator, with great understanding of the psychology of the game and the ability to wrap the League office around his finger, but only the latter would apply in this case. It's a great gamble and a smart move, but there's nothing assured here.

The Knicks, again, have one piece, two if you add Chandler but that eats some of the cap in 2015 and it's a question how much he's really dropped off, not to mention the fact that Phil seems to like offensive centers whose defense can improve with elbow use. Maybe Phil gets through to Shumpert and sets him right--maybe. Otherwise it's close to square one with this team, with few picks and no stashes.

In every real way, this is very different than Jerry West's contribution to the Warriors. And even there, the Warriors are really playing below expectations. I like the team a lot, but they haven't risen to the top.

Goose17
03-09-2014, 07:11 PM
How are you a Warriors fan and talk as if you don't know that Jerry West was hired to do essentially the same thing Phil Jackson would be doing w/ the Knicks which is basically overseeing all basketball related decisions. Look how well that turned out for the Warriors who used to be just as bad as the Knicks. Jackson is one of the greatest basketball minds EVER.

Good addition by NY if he agrees to help.

With Dolan handcuffing him, his presence will be meaningless. Unless Dolan is finally taking a step back but I personally find that hard to believe.

If Dolan takes a step back, this is huge.
If Dolan doesn't take a step back, this is meaningless although it might help convince Melo to stay.

TrueFan420
03-09-2014, 07:31 PM
With Dolan handcuffing him, his presence will be meaningless. Unless Dolan is finally taking a step back but I personally find that hard to believe.

If Dolan takes a step back, this is huge.
If Dolan doesn't take a step back, this is meaningless although it might help convince Melo to stay.

I doubt phill goes there if Dolan doesn't step back and give him the green light to do BS he pleases

1_team_1_dream
03-09-2014, 10:25 PM
Knicks expect decision from Phil Jackson on Monday

The Knicks are hoping Phil Jackson will tell them on Monday that he is up to the challenge of running a franchise that last won an NBA championship in 1973.

According to an NBA source familiar with the negotiations, the Knicks expect to have a decision on Monday, approximately two weeks after Jackson turned down an offer to coach the club. The 68-year-old Hall of Fame coach is considering a lucrative deal to join the Knicks’ front office and be placed in charge of the basketball operations.

The possibility of Jackson returning to the franchise that drafted him would give the Knicks instant credibility since Jackson has won 11 NBA titles as a coach and two as a player.
RELATED: LUPICA: KNICKS HOLDING OUT FOR A SAVIOR
The downside, of course, is that Jackson has never been an executive and, at this stage of his life and career, on-the-job training could be a risky proposition for both sides. Jackson, though, believes he can make the same transition that Pat Riley made nearly 20 years ago when he left the Knicks to run the Miami Heat.

The Knicks have not commented on Jackson’s potential hiring and have not even acknowledged that an offer has been made. In recent interviews, Jackson has made it clear that he has no interest in coaching and instead prefers a consultant’s role similar to the one Jerry West has with the Golden State Warriors.

Whether Jackson wants to live full-time in New York or would be required to do so remains unclear. Jackson splits his time between his Montana ranch and his beach house in Playa Del Rey. Calif. Jackson is not enamored with traveling, which is crucial if he takes the job. In fact, with all the college basketball tournaments starting, it would be essential for Jackson to be on the road scouting. However, Jackson has no appetite for that aspect of the job and is not a big fan of college basketball. Friends say his true passion is following the NHL.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/chock-phil-drama-jackson-expects-give-knicks-decision-monday-article-1.1716138#ixzz2vXCUse2d

Sssmush
03-09-2014, 10:33 PM
The Lakers are a disgrace

Go jump on the Knicks bandwagon dude.

I mean *gosh*, the Knicks + Carmelo + Dolan + Phil Jackson ?? Jeeezus that sounds like the most awesome combination I've ever heard of. I think the Knicks can just line up the championship trophies for like the next decade or whatever.

Yeah, hurry up and go jump on that bandwagon bro, you want to get in on the ground floor and you definitely don't want to miss that train.

NBA_Starter
03-09-2014, 10:55 PM
I hope he thought this out.

Jamiecballer
03-09-2014, 11:14 PM
With Dolan handcuffing him, his presence will be meaningless. Unless Dolan is finally taking a step back but I personally find that hard to believe.

If Dolan takes a step back, this is huge.
If Dolan doesn't take a step back, this is meaningless although it might help convince Melo to stay.

precisely how i feel as well. if Dolan keeps his hands off (which i don't personally believe will happen), it's a huge score. either way i feel they've bought Melo's optimism which will probably seal the deal on a contract.

3RDASYSTEM
03-09-2014, 11:15 PM
Knicks win it all for the next seven years, take it to the bank.

Melo will be the new Jordan/Kobe, Jobe. Call him Melo the Jobe.

Knicks are saved!

Not only that this could possibly lure BRON over since he would be able to add to his title and player legacy and become that elusive billionaire over there in that nyc/wall street market

FYL_McVeezy
03-09-2014, 11:25 PM
Phil Jackson is not jumping into this situation without written assurance from Dolan that he will not meddle. Phil knows it's not worth the stress without that assurance.....

David Stern pushed Donnie Walsh on Dolan after the Isiah Thomas fiasco....he didn't owe him anything in his eyes.... Dolan approached Phil face to face. He has to give him that courtesy if he wants him to sign on the dotted line.

CarltonXanBanks
03-09-2014, 11:25 PM
i dont understand why phil won't just enjoy his retirement. he honestly has nothing else to prove lol he can't be that bored. yes i am a bulls fan, but i really don't care if melo stays or goes

Kaner
03-09-2014, 11:41 PM
I'd be surprised if this happens, isn't he going to be married soon to Jerry Buss's daughter? The guys going to be tied to the Lakers for life now.

sunsfan88
03-10-2014, 12:14 AM
Yeah cuz the suns have had all that champinship joy lol

Suns aren't the laughingstock of the league though. My sympathy was real, I wasn't being sarcastic.

Worst coaching staff, worst font office, no picks, terrible cap space, other NY the city being prominent in itself, the basketball team Knicks has nothing going for them.

lol, please
03-10-2014, 02:26 AM
Good. I hope he gets a job with anyone but the Lakers, to spite the fans :D.

slashsnake
03-10-2014, 02:45 AM
Suns aren't the laughingstock of the league though. My sympathy was real, I wasn't being sarcastic.

Worst coaching staff, worst font office, no picks, terrible cap space, other NY the city being prominent in itself, the basketball team Knicks has nothing going for them.

If somehow he could turn it around though in the front office, well he'd be even more of a legend. If he fails, well, he's old, not willing to put in the work, did it for the big money grab, and who really cares, it wouldn't really tarnish his legacy IMO.

Sssmush
03-10-2014, 05:20 AM
He could totally write another Zen book chronicling his two nightmare seasons with the Knicks, and air out the dirty laundry of Dolan, Carmelo and everybody else in the organization.

He could give detailed stories about Carmelo walking out of meetings and not getting along with Tyson Chandler, and report the inside view of Knickdom.

Yes that's the other thing you get with Phil... he's like a coach/GM/investigative journalist rolled into one, who will write up a nice bestseller at the end of his run detailing everything anybody ever said or did, plus a few extra zingers.

Cheers!

Goose17
03-10-2014, 06:08 AM
He could totally write another Zen book chronicling his two nightmare seasons with the Knicks, and air out the dirty laundry of Dolan, Carmelo and everybody else in the organization.

He could give detailed stories about Carmelo walking out of meetings and not getting along with Tyson Chandler, and report the inside view of Knickdom.

Yes that's the other thing you get with Phil... he's like a coach/GM/investigative journalist rolled into one, who will write up a nice bestseller at the end of his run detailing everything anybody ever said or did, plus a few extra zingers.

Cheers!

Sounding bitter...

nycericanguy
03-10-2014, 10:19 AM
With Dolan handcuffing him, his presence will be meaningless. Unless Dolan is finally taking a step back but I personally find that hard to believe.

If Dolan takes a step back, this is huge.
If Dolan doesn't take a step back, this is meaningless although it might help convince Melo to stay.

Dolan took a step back for Walsh and let Walsh do his thing for 2+ years... but when Walsh failed in 2010, then Dolan started to intervene.

But if he stepped back for Walsh I'm pretty sure he'll step back for PJ.

mightybosstone
03-10-2014, 10:32 AM
If they give Phil complete control over the roster decisions, this could be a very good move. But as solely a coach, I do not buy him spinning **** into gold. I'm particularly interested to see what they do next season, as Chandler and Stoudemire are still on the books and crippling the Knicks' cap for another year. A lot of guys could do something with Melo and cap space, but what can Phil do with Melo and no cap space?

The guy I feel bad for in this situation is Mike Woodson. Imagine having to travel across the country with your team and play on television in front of millions of people every night only to constantly seeing rumors that the GOAT coach is interested in your job and your bosses would be more than willing to fire you and give him your job. That's a rough spot to be in...

blastmasta26
03-10-2014, 11:24 AM
If they give Phil complete control over the roster decisions, this could be a very good move. But as solely a coach, I do not buy him spinning **** into gold. I'm particularly interested to see what they do next season, as Chandler and Stoudemire are still on the books and crippling the Knicks' cap for another year. A lot of guys could do something with Melo and cap space, but what can Phil do with Melo and no cap space?

The guy I feel bad for in this situation is Mike Woodson. Imagine having to travel across the country with your team and play on television in front of millions of people every night only to constantly seeing rumors that the GOAT coach is interested in your job and your bosses would be more than willing to fire you and give him your job. That's a rough spot to be in...

PJ's not gonna coach. The offer is for the FO

Rockice_8
03-10-2014, 11:31 AM
As long as Dolan's out it's great for the Knicks. After that, his presence should be a good thing but I'll have to wait and see about his personnel decisions.

mightybosstone
03-10-2014, 11:36 AM
PJ's not gonna coach. The offer is for the FO

Ahhh... Never mind, then. I heard conflicting reports on this on sports talk radio the other day that the deal might involve him coaching and/or having some kind of front office representation. If it's solely a front office position, I actually like that a lot better. Anything that pulls management of the team from Dolan's hands is a good thing. Also, I don't think Phil is healthy enough to coach a team for 80+ games a season anymore.

nycericanguy
03-10-2014, 11:52 AM
Ahhh... Never mind, then. I heard conflicting reports on this on sports talk radio the other day that the deal might involve him coaching and/or having some kind of front office representation. If it's solely a front office position, I actually like that a lot better. Anything that pulls management of the team from Dolan's hands is a good thing. Also, I don't think Phil is healthy enough to coach a team for 80+ games a season anymore.

Agreed, but I think if the Knicks strike gold in 2015 FAgency, I could see Phil coming down to coach for 1 season to try to mold the team, sort of like Riley did? Or at least wanted to do? I don't even remember if he actually did...lol.

But really I don't think trying to get two max players in 2015 is the way to go for NY... I think they should use Bargs expiring and maybe Shump to add a couple of solid players... maybe a Teague or IIyasova... guys that fit and are young and fast. Then in 2015 you can still add another max type player.

Tony_Starks
03-10-2014, 12:00 PM
I think Phil is posturing to put the pressure on Jimmy Bus. If he let Phil get away and go to NY he would get ran outta town.

The Knicks may be just as bad next year or perhaps worse, I can't see Phil signing up to be a part of that with no help in sight.

mightybosstone
03-10-2014, 12:08 PM
I think Phil is posturing to put the pressure on Jimmy Bus. If he let Phil get away and go to NY he would get ran outta town.
That could be the case, but consider that Phil is probably still hurt from the Lakers not giving into his demands a couple of seasons ago. Hell, the Lakers chose Mike freakin' D'Antoni over arguably the GOAT coach. Regardless of how ridiculous Phil's demands were, I could see why the guy might have taken that personally. I wouldn't doubt that he's taking this position seriously.


The Knicks may be just as bad next year or perhaps worse, I can't see Phil signing up to be a part of that with no help in sight.
Next year they'll be awful, but I don't buy that there's "no help in sight." In a little over a year from now, Phil will be sitting pretty with Carmelo Anthony and a ton of cap space in one of the greatest cities in the world. I have no doubt that he could attract some superstar talent and piece together a contender relatively quickly. The lack of draft picks doesn't help, but several teams have taught us the last few years that you don't have to build around the draft if you're smart with your assets and sign the right guys.

Sly Guy
03-10-2014, 12:12 PM
it'd be great for the knicks to grab phil in any role, but in all honesty I would have loved to see him coach this team. I wanna see what phil is capable of with an average or below average roster, settle the whole 'greatest coach ever' thing once and for all.

Goose17
03-10-2014, 12:21 PM
In a little over a year from now, Phil will be sitting pretty with Carmelo Anthony and a ton of cap space in one of the greatest cities in the world. I have no doubt that he could attract some superstar talent and piece together a contender relatively quickly. The lack of draft picks doesn't help, but several teams have taught us the last few years that you don't have to build around the draft if you're smart with your assets and sign the right guys.

But does Melo want to be part of a rebuild? He's pushing 30 so this is the time to make a run with a contender if he wants to be one of "the" guys on a championship team (as in one of the Alpha's), he could be 33/34 by the time New York fully rebuild and are back as contenders. It has taken OKC around 7 years to build a contender, and even now they still haven't won it all. I know it's different being a smaller market and whatever but still...

If he is willing to take less money to win (like some of his peers have done) he could walk onto the starting 5 of almost any contending team not named Miami or OKC.

Tony_Starks
03-10-2014, 12:26 PM
That could be the case, but consider that Phil is probably still hurt from the Lakers not giving into his demands a couple of seasons ago. Hell, the Lakers chose Mike freakin' D'Antoni over arguably the GOAT coach. Regardless of how ridiculous Phil's demands were, I could see why the guy might have taken that personally. I wouldn't doubt that he's taking this position seriously.


Next year they'll be awful, but I don't buy that there's "no help in sight." In a little over a year from now, Phil will be sitting pretty with Carmelo Anthony and a ton of cap space in one of the greatest cities in the world. I have no doubt that he could attract some superstar talent and piece together a contender relatively quickly. The lack of draft picks doesn't help, but several teams have taught us the last few years that you don't have to build around the draft if you're smart with your assets and sign the right guys.

If you watch Melo this year all this losing has really taken a toll on him. I don't see him being sold on doing this for another year and waiting for 2015. Next season they're capped out with no picks and players no one wants.

I think Melo is out of there. Either hit Chitown with Rose and Noah or LA with Kobe and a top pick.

NYKnickFanatic
03-10-2014, 12:45 PM
Phil is simply using the Knicks as leverage. No way he is going to take a job with them.

DRose01
03-10-2014, 12:54 PM
Let's see how it works out if Phil takes the job. The Knicks are a mess and Phil doesn't have any front office experience and its not like he's getting younger. With all the cap space in the world, it's not a guarantee the Knicks will land a superstar in a few years. A lot of teams can tell you that from 2010, even the Knicks. Also Carmelo will be 2 years older.

nycericanguy
03-10-2014, 12:55 PM
I think Phil is posturing to put the pressure on Jimmy Bus. If he let Phil get away and go to NY he would get ran outta town.

The Knicks may be just as bad next year or perhaps worse, I can't see Phil signing up to be a part of that with no help in sight.

This has been a murphy's law year for the Knicks... just about every player has performed well below career norms aside from Melo. I think this was more of a "worst case scenario", this is a team that prior to this year had won over 60% of their games the prior 2 years with the same core.

The roster might be flawed but not even the worst Knick haters would have said they would be one of the worst teams in the NBA this year...

So no, I don't think they'll be just as bad next year or worse... With a new coach and a couple of veteran pieces added like they do every year, this is still a 50 win team.

nycericanguy
03-10-2014, 12:58 PM
But does Melo want to be part of a rebuild? He's pushing 30 so this is the time to make a run with a contender if he wants to be one of "the" guys on a championship team (as in one of the Alpha's), he could be 33/34 by the time New York fully rebuild and are back as contenders. It has taken OKC around 7 years to build a contender, and even now they still haven't won it all. I know it's different being a smaller market and whatever but still...

If he is willing to take less money to win (like some of his peers have done) he could walk onto the starting 5 of almost any contending team not named Miami or OKC.

Knicks don't need 4-5 years to rebuild... i'm sure Melo won't resign if that's their plan. They can either trade expirings this summer for players on deals considered "bad" like Josh Smith, Jennings, Iyosava, Sanders...Teague..etc... or wait it out another year and have tons of cap and their 1st rounder.

either way, they should be a really good team in a year or so and even next year there's no way this season of hell will repeat itself.

Pierzynski4Prez
03-10-2014, 01:06 PM
Knicks don't need 4-5 years to rebuild... i'm sure Melo won't resign if that's their plan. They can either trade expirings this summer for players on deals considered "bad" like Josh Smith, Jennings, Iyosava, Sanders...Teague..etc... or wait it out another year and have tons of cap and their 1st rounder.

either way, they should be a really good team in a year or so and even next year there's no way this season of hell will repeat itself.

Making a move like Josh Smith or obtaining other bad contracts will only push back their rebuild even further. I don't see any logic behind that. They need to acquire picks, not hindering contracts.

Tony_Starks
03-10-2014, 01:12 PM
This has been a murphy's law year for the Knicks... just about every player has performed well below career norms aside from Melo. I think this was more of a "worst case scenario", this is a team that prior to this year had won over 60% of their games the prior 2 years with the same core.

The roster might be flawed but not even the worst Knick haters would have said they would be one of the worst teams in the NBA this year...

So no, I don't think they'll be just as bad next year or worse... With a new coach and a couple of veteran pieces added like they do every year, this is still a 50 win team.

This isn't your 50 win Knicks. If nobody is foolish enough to take Chandler or Amare off your hands they are in trouble. A year older and probably more injury prone.

But say best case scenario they do make moves and get 50. Still wont be better than MIA, Indy, or Bulls. So your basically asking Melo to tread water for another season on the hopes of turning things around the following season.

I just don't see it happening.

nycericanguy
03-10-2014, 01:29 PM
This isn't your 50 win Knicks. If nobody is foolish enough to take Chandler or Amare off your hands they are in trouble. A year older and probably more injury prone.

But say best case scenario they do make moves and get 50. Still wont be better than MIA, Indy, or Bulls. So your basically asking Melo to tread water for another season on the hopes of turning things around the following season.

I just don't see it happening.

I'm willing to bet this year was an abbe ration considering they were 72-33 under Woodson before this year, considering Melo has NEVER had a losing season... considering Melo has NEVER missed the playoffs. They've had a horrrible year, it happens, but let's not act like they haven't been a good team since 2010.

why would they be in trouble? Chandler is still a very good player, and even Amare has managed to be good this year. You know they only have 1 year left on their deals right? If nobody takes them you let them expire... I don't see how that's a bad thing.

And not being better than MIA or IND isn't a crime... those are the two best teams in the league this year... and frankly as long as LBJ, Wade & Bosh are in MIA, no one will be better than them...

As for CHI, until Rose proves he can come back and be Rose again, they are nothing more than a nice story about a team with heart and a great coach that will win 42-45 games.

As for Melo threading water... where is he going to go next year and be an INSTANT contender? Miami is the only team I see, and that would require a huge pay cut and a lot of tinkering.

The Bulls? THey would have to let go of Boozer, Dunleavy, Gibson AND not bring over Mirotic in order to offer Melo a reasonable contract... is a core of Melo/Noah & Butler better than MIA or IND and ready to contend INSTANTLY? I don't think so... CHI would need another year as well to replenish, and get the MLE to bring over Mirotic and hope and pray Rose returns to form.

nycericanguy
03-10-2014, 01:31 PM
Making a move like Josh Smith or obtaining other bad contracts will only push back their rebuild even further. I don't see any logic behind that. They need to acquire picks, not hindering contracts.

Josh Smith, when he's not taking long 2's is a damn good two player. I remember a few years ago he stopped shooting 3's and became a very efficient player. I think a guy like Phil Jackson could get through to him... Knicks don't need picks... Melo and or Phil Jackson aren't staying here to bank on rookies and waiting 4-5 years... A deal like Smith's at $14m wouldn't really be hindering with all that money coming off the books.

xxplayerxx23
03-10-2014, 01:33 PM
Foolish enough to take an expiring contract? Pretend like Tyson had no value :laugh: F josh smith guy is absolute garbage

nycericanguy
03-10-2014, 01:34 PM
Broussard reporting Phil will take Knicks job.

nycericanguy
03-10-2014, 01:35 PM
Foolish enough to take an expiring contract? Pretend like Tyson had no value :laugh: F josh smith guy is absolute garbage

It's all about situation man... If Tyson were on CHI or IND right now people would be praising him like they do Hibbert... but Tyson isn't in a good situation or system right now... he has PG's like Felton sending guys to the rim at will.

Same for Josh... this was a key player on several 50+ win teams in ATL... he just needs a good system and coach.

Pierzynski4Prez
03-10-2014, 01:50 PM
Josh Smith, when he's not taking long 2's is a damn good two player. I remember a few years ago he stopped shooting 3's and became a very efficient player. I think a guy like Phil Jackson could get through to him... Knicks don't need picks... Melo and or Phil Jackson aren't staying here to bank on rookies and waiting 4-5 years... A deal like Smith's at $14m wouldn't really be hindering with all that money coming off the books.

Sounds good. How often is he not taking long 2's? Or chucking 3's? Certainly not this year. Or the last few. For your sake, I would hope NY doesn't trade away your few remaining assets for Josh Smith and the 3/40 he is owed. His money alone isn't hindering, but for the role he plays (inefficient chucker), he is vastly overpaid.

xxplayerxx23
03-10-2014, 01:52 PM
It's all about situation man... If Tyson were on CHI or IND right now people would be praising him like they do Hibbert... but Tyson isn't in a good situation or system right now... he has PG's like Felton sending guys to the rim at will.

Same for Josh... this was a key player on several 50+ win teams in ATL... he just needs a good system and coach.

Agree with Tyson. He's still top defensive rebounding center. Josh smith sucks, he's a chucker head case. Pass on him

xxplayerxx23
03-10-2014, 01:52 PM
Josh smith is awful

blahblahyoutoo
03-10-2014, 01:58 PM
Knicks is back back!?!

Pierzynski4Prez
03-10-2014, 01:59 PM
It's all about situation man... If Tyson were on CHI or IND right now people would be praising him like they do Hibbert... but Tyson isn't in a good situation or system right now... he has PG's like Felton sending guys to the rim at will.

Same for Josh... this was a key player on several 50+ win teams in ATL... he just needs a good system and coach.

You mean 1 50+ win team. And it's not like he was the 1st option on those pretty stacked teams.

nycericanguy
03-10-2014, 02:04 PM
You mean 1 50+ win team. And it's not like he was the 1st option on those pretty stacked teams.

don't get all technical...lol. ATL was right around 50 wins just about every year with Josh. And he was one of their top guns on BOTH ends and those teams were FAR from stacked.

Kaner
03-10-2014, 02:16 PM
I'm willing to bet this year was an abbe ration considering they were 72-33 under Woodson before this year, considering Melo has NEVER had a losing season... considering Melo has NEVER missed the playoffs. They've had a horrrible year, it happens, but let's not act like they haven't been a good team since 2010.

why would they be in trouble? Chandler is still a very good player, and even Amare has managed to be good this year. You know they only have 1 year left on their deals right? If nobody takes them you let them expire... I don't see how that's a bad thing.

wait what?? So your just calling this season a wash because you didn't EXPECT them to be this bad and they WERE good in the past? It's called aging and probably complacency by some of the Knicks.

How can you honestly say their NOT in trouble. You're a 30 win team with no draftpick and bad contracts. Just because it will 'only' be 2 years before the contracts expire doesn't change that they have little to offer. When the only thing going for a team is capspace in a couple years thats NOT a good situation.

If he doesn't opt out why would he, or any free-agent superstar actually looking to win, sign with the Knicks when Philadelphia is going to have more capspace then the knicks in 2 years with 10x the young talent.

KniCks4LiFe
03-10-2014, 02:16 PM
Knicks is back back!?!

if Phil is on board w/ total control, we're 2-3 yrs. away from being back. If he has total control like Riley does in Miami.

xxplayerxx23
03-10-2014, 02:17 PM
I always considered Horford and joe as the top options, and then after joe I felt like AL was the better player

blahblahyoutoo
03-10-2014, 02:25 PM
it'd be great for the knicks to grab phil in any role, but in all honesty I would have loved to see him coach this team. I wanna see what phil is capable of with an average or below average roster, settle the whole 'greatest coach ever' thing once and for all.

this. personally i think he's overrated.
he left after that horrible laker season where they got swept in the 1st round. that's with kobe and a good gasol.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-10-2014, 02:29 PM
Broussard reporting Phil will take Knicks job.

If that guy is reporting that then it's almost a sure thing that he will not take the job.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-10-2014, 02:32 PM
this. personally i think he's overrated.
he left after that horrible laker season where they got swept in the 1st round. that's with kobe and a good gasol.
It was the second round and to the eventual NBA champions. You know, the team that beat a prime Lebron, Wade, and Bosh?

Phil also took over a team that won 34 games and had them almost beat a 60 win team if not for a last second 3 in game 6. Within 3 years he helped turn around a bunch of scrubs into back to back champions.

Pierzynski4Prez
03-10-2014, 02:38 PM
don't get all technical...lol. ATL was right around 50 wins just about every year with Josh. And he was one of their top guns on BOTH ends and those teams were FAR from stacked.

Just pointing out an error. And they had some good lineups. Horford and Johnson weren't scrubs, and Crawford played pretty well there too.

blahblahyoutoo
03-10-2014, 02:38 PM
It was the second round and to the eventual NBA champions. You know, the team that beat a prime Lebron, Wade, and Bosh?

Phil also took over a team that won 34 games and had them almost beat a 60 win team if not for a last second 3 in game 6. Within 3 years he helped turn around a bunch of scrubs into back to back champions.

that wasn't their prime. not their first year together. the last 2 seasons into right now is prime, with the exception of wade since he's oft injured.

and phil has yet to prove he can really win without having the best player(s) (and another top 5 as a sidekick). this is what the world wants to see.

Pierzynski4Prez
03-10-2014, 02:39 PM
I always considered Horford and joe as the top options, and then after joe I felt like AL was the better player

Al was the better player over Johnson imo.

xxplayerxx23
03-10-2014, 02:45 PM
Al was the better player over Johnson imo.

Yeah, I think once joe signed that max he started to decline, but yeah I think al was just as good as joe, josh was sort of the 3rd wheel

xxplayerxx23
03-10-2014, 02:50 PM
that wasn't their prime. not their first year together. the last 2 seasons into right now is prime, with the exception of wade since he's oft injured.

and phil has yet to prove he can really win without having the best player(s) (and another top 5 as a sidekick). this is what the world wants to see.

Please Lebron and bosh were in their prime. They lost. Dallas did what they had to do. But have those players won before Phil? What about after? No ok. People respect Phil, FA goin to ny would be his biggest impact

Pierzynski4Prez
03-10-2014, 02:51 PM
Yeah, I think once joe signed that max he started to decline, but yeah I think al was just as good as joe, josh was sort of the 3rd wheel

Also depends on the year you were looking at too. Just a personal preference.

NYKnickFanatic
03-10-2014, 02:54 PM
If that guy is reporting that then it's almost a sure thing that he will not take the job.

Exactly.

Tony_Starks
03-10-2014, 03:10 PM
It was the second round and to the eventual NBA champions. You know, the team that beat a prime Lebron, Wade, and Bosh?

Phil also took over a team that won 34 games and had them almost beat a 60 win team if not for a last second 3 in game 6. Within 3 years he helped turn around a bunch of scrubs into back to back champions.

Phil has nothing left to prove. People act as if he needs to do something else to cement his legacy.

I'm pretty sure he's good.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-10-2014, 03:27 PM
that wasn't their prime. not their first year together. the last 2 seasons into right now is prime, with the exception of wade since he's oft injured.

and phil has yet to prove he can really win without having the best player(s) (and another top 5 as a sidekick). this is what the world wants to see.

That was the only year that they were all in their prime. Since then Wade has fallen out of his prime.

Gasol was not then nor ever has he been a top 5 player in the league. The 2009 and 2010 Lakers had a 37 year old point guard and outcast from other teams except for Kobe and Pau. Bynum was always hurt and never a factor in the finals.

Phils system always elevated everyone statistical numbers. Guys had their career years under Jackson. Shaq never was as good as he was under Phil. Shaqs best years were from 28 to 31. That should be when guys start getting worse. But Phil elevated Shaqs game even though he was in the latter part of his prime. Same thing with Gasol.

And if not Phil, who is the best?

still1ballin
03-10-2014, 03:28 PM
The Knicks are back!

:dance:

xxplayerxx23
03-10-2014, 03:29 PM
Phil has nothing left to prove. People act as if he needs to do something else to cement his legacy.

I'm pretty sure he's good.

He could want to add a champinship to a team tht hasn't seen one since he played. He could become one of the best Front office In the league. He wins one in ny he is a god to everyone forever

numba1CHANGsta
03-10-2014, 05:08 PM
his career is coming full circle, good for him, but seriously I don't see that team improving any time soon. What I feel will happen is Phil will end up just coaching the team sometime in the future

torocan
03-10-2014, 05:16 PM
his career is coming full circle, good for him, but seriously I don't see that team improving any time soon. What I feel will happen is Phil will end up just coaching the team sometime in the future

Realistically, even if Phil Jackson takes over basketball operations and turn out to be good at it, it's going to take YEARS to fix the mess that is the Knicks.

Contracts to move, cap space to clear and players to recruit. Not to meantion the search for a new head coach and hiring of a new coaching staff.

This is on top of cleaning house in the Knicks FO and getting rid of the incompetent, the "yes men", and instilling a proper corporate culture that rewards performance and competence versus whether you're represented by CAA.

It's a monumental task... however, I think the Knicks fanbase can live with the wait as long as there is legitimate light at the end of the tunnel. None of us expect any serious roster improvements until 2015/16 anyway.

Give Phil his 5 year window, let him do his thing, and limit James Dolan voice to, "Where do I sign the check?" and "I don't understand why you're doing that... explain to me why my ideas are stupid please." We may not have a championship ring at the end, but I highly doubt we'll have the cesspool of an organization that represents today's Knicks when he's done. And I wouldn't be surprised if we at *least* have a legitimate play off caliber team with a future.

colinskik
03-11-2014, 11:44 AM
Realistically, even if Phil Jackson takes over basketball operations and turn out to be good at it, it's going to take YEARS to fix the mess that is the Knicks.

Contracts to move, cap space to clear and players to recruit. Not to meantion the search for a new head coach and hiring of a new coaching staff.

This is on top of cleaning house in the Knicks FO and getting rid of the incompetent, the "yes men", and instilling a proper corporate culture that rewards performance and competence versus whether you're represented by CAA.

It's a monumental task... however, I think the Knicks fanbase can live with the wait as long as there is legitimate light at the end of the tunnel. None of us expect any serious roster improvements until 2015/16 anyway.

Give Phil his 5 year window, let him do his thing, and limit James Dolan voice to, "Where do I sign the check?" and "I don't understand why you're doing that... explain to me why my ideas are stupid please." We may not have a championship ring at the end, but I highly doubt we'll have the cesspool of an organization that represents today's Knicks when he's done. And I wouldn't be surprised if we at *least* have a legitimate play off caliber team with a future.

How do you figure? As it stands now, the Knicks will have a ton of cap room in 2015. Plus with huge expiring contracts next year they have a little flexibility as far as moves are concerned.

As for recruiting, Phil solves that problem, especially if his arrival convinces Melo to stay. Then you also can assume coaches will want to come and coach for Phil.

Add to all of that, the main problem with this year's Knicks is coaching. If you place a competent coach at the helm next year the Knicks are already a better team. In two to three years we'll be out of this mess.

torocan
03-11-2014, 11:52 AM
How do you figure? As it stands now, the Knicks will have a ton of cap room in 2015. Plus with huge expiring contracts next year they have a little flexibility as far as moves are concerned.

As for recruiting, Phil solves that problem, especially if his arrival convinces Melo to stay. Then you also can assume coaches will want to come and coach for Phil.

Add to all of that, the main problem with this year's Knicks is coaching. If you place a competent coach at the helm next year the Knicks are already a better team. In two to three years we'll be out of this mess.

The math is easy.

Next year - write off.
2015/16 - Cap space. How many stars do you expect to sign in one year? 1? Let's say 2. Where are your rotation players? Maybe you get 1 or 2. It will probably take at least 2 seasons to fill out the roster.
2016/17 - Filling out roster (see above) and beginning of working out schemes and chemistry
2017/18 - Team chemistry gelling, finer details worked out in terms of roles, rotations and schemes.
2018/19 - Contending at a play off level or better

That's at least 4 years the way I see it. Unless you think Lebron/Durant + 2 other "stars" are just walking in the door, you aren't going to have a contender in 2015/16. And even when the Heat signed Lebron/Wade/Bosh they didn't hit their stride until their 2nd year, and they had THREE top 10 players sign simultaneously who already liked each other and knew each other well.

If you're exceptionally lucky you might shave off a year if *EVERYTHING* went right... if you have any missteps, add a year. Either way, 3-5 years at a minimum. That's *YEARS* in my books.

How does your math get you to a real team sooner than that?

KnickaBocka.44
03-11-2014, 12:02 PM
The math is easy.

Next year - write off.
2015/16 - Cap space. How many stars do you expect to sign in one year? 1? Let's say 2. Where are your rotation players? Maybe you get 1 or 2. It will probably take at least 2 seasons to fill out the roster.
2016/17 - Filling out roster (see above) and beginning of working out schemes and chemistry
2017/18 - Team chemistry gelling, finer details worked out in terms of roles, rotations and schemes.
2018/19 - Contending at a play off level or better

That's at least 4 years the way I see it. Unless you think Lebron/Durant + 2 other "stars" are just walking in the door, you aren't going to have a contender in 2015/16. And even when the Heat signed Lebron/Wade/Bosh they didn't hit their stride until their 2nd year, and they had THREE top 10 players sign simultaneously who already liked each other and knew each other well.

If you're exceptionally lucky you might shave off a year if *EVERYTHING* went right... if you have any missteps, add a year. Either way, 3-5 years at a minimum. That's *YEARS* in my books.

How does your math get you to a real team sooner than that?

The Cetics of '07 disagree.

D-Leethal
03-11-2014, 12:16 PM
Contracts to move? We will have nearly every single contract on our books to free agency after next season. The contracts will be moving themselves, we don't have to do jack to move them.

Why can't we fill in the blanks during the same offseason as the major FA? We have to wait a full year to round out the roster? If we have done ANYTHING well, its filling out the roster with quality pieces year after year after year.

It will take 2 full seasons before our roster can start to gel and we can work out rotations. Seriously? Year 3 is going to be a gelling year? How about years 1 and 2? We really need end of bench guys and role players begin gelling?

D-Leethal
03-11-2014, 12:18 PM
How about your favorite team the Houston Rockets? Did it take them 5 years before they could begin gelling and become merely a playoff team too after adding their two major pieces? Come on dude.

You honestly just said its gonna take a full year to add our stars via FA, than another full year before we can add role players, than another full year before anyone can be coached, than another full year and we will finally make the playoffs in the freakin' East.

You must not be too productive at work.

torocan
03-11-2014, 12:21 PM
The Cetics of '07 disagree.

The Celtics didn't have Amare's contract on the books AND had draft picks.

The Knicks can make very few moves next year. Even taking Amare off the books STILL doesn't get them under the salary cap, so you can't sign free agents above the MLE this off season.

You can maybe move Melo and Chandler, unless you want to keep Melo. However, what exactly are you going to use as a trade asset? You want to give away Shumpert and THJr? JR Smith and Felton are at a very low trade value due to contract length, price, and off court issues.

Nobody is touching Felton between his crap play and looming court issues. JR Smith is a head case and underperforming. Pablo Prigioni will barely get you a pack of chips due to his age. Tyler is a min contract so you won't get much back for him.

And you have ONE draft pick in 2015 and 2017. You don't see another pick until 2018.

The Knicks is in a royal mess in terms of cap space and draft picks until 2015/16, which means the options for making team building moves prior to 2015/16 are very limited.

In specific reference to 2007, here is what actually happened...


NBA Draft 2007: The Ray Allen trade
Main article: 2007 NBA Draft
Shortly after being traded to the Celtics, Ray Allen threw out the first pitch for a baseball game at Fenway Park, home of the Boston Red Sox of Major League Baseball.

On May 22, the Celtics were assigned the 5th overall selection in the NBA Draft Lottery, essentially losing their chance of drafting either Greg Oden or Kevin Durant, who both were considered to go 1st and 2nd in the Draft. The 5th pick was the worst-case scenario for the Celtics, who had a 19.9% chance of obtaining the 1st overall selection. However, on June 28, the day of the 2007 NBA Draft, the Celtics traded the 5th pick along with Wally Szczerbiak and Delonte West to the Seattle SuperSonics in exchange for All-Star 3-point specialist Ray Allen and the 35th overall selection prior to the event, and with the 5th pick selected forward Jeff Green for Seattle.[10] In the second round of the Draft, the Celtics selected guard Gabe Pruitt with the 32nd pick, which was their own, and forward Glen "Big Baby" Davis with the 35th pick, previously obtained from Seattle.[11]

Kevin Garnett trade
The Celtics achieved the league's top record with the acquisition of Kevin Garnett, who carried the team throughout the season and was amongst the leaders for the Most Valuable Player award.[12]

On July 31, the Celtics traded for 10-time All-Star and 2004 MVP Kevin Garnett in the single largest trade for one player in NBA history.[13] He was acquired from the Minnesota Timberwolves in exchange for Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Theo Ratliff, Gerald Green, Sebastian Telfair, Boston's 2009 first-round draft pick (top three protected), the return of Minnesota's conditional first-round draft pick previously obtained in the 2006 Ricky Davis-Wally Szczerbiak trade and cash considerations.[14] By adding Garnett to All-Stars Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, the trade brought a new era of relevance to the long-struggling franchise, but it also left the roster short-handed.[15][16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_Boston_Celtics_season

I know, wikipedia isn't a great source but in this case they got it mostly right.

The Celtics had picks. They had cap space. They had assets. They were *already* in position to acquire real talent.

The Knicks have NONE of that until 2015/16. No cap space, no picks, and no assets unless he starts tearing down next year and trades Chandlers and/or Melo. Amare isn't worth anything on the open market unless you want to take back horrendous salary match contracts and tie up the Knicks cap space for years.

No, this isn't something that gets fixed overnight, and bringing up the 2007 Celtics does nothing but point out how horrible the Knicks situation has become.

So tell me again how you think the Knicks will be there faster?

D-Leethal
03-11-2014, 12:28 PM
The Celtics didn't have Amare's contract on the books AND had draft picks.

The Knicks can make very few moves next year. Even taking Amare off the books STILL doesn't get them under the salary cap, so you can't sign free agents above the MLE this off season.

You can maybe move Melo and Chandler, unless you want to keep Melo. However, what exactly are you going to use as a trade asset? You want to give away Shumpert and THJr? JR Smith and Felton are at a very low trade value due to contract length, price, and off court issues.

Nobody is touching Felton between his crap play and looming court issues. JR Smith is a head case and underperforming. Pablo Prigioni will barely get you a pack of chips due to his age. Tyler is a min contract so you won't get much back for him.

And you have ONE draft pick in 2015 and 2017. You don't see another pick until 2018.

The Knicks is in a royal mess in terms of cap space and draft picks until 2015/16, which means the options for making team building moves prior to 2015/16 are very limited.

In specific reference to 2007, here is what actually happened...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_Boston_Celtics_season

I know, wikipedia isn't a great source but in this case they got it mostly right.

The Celtics had picks. They had cap space. They had assets. They were *already* in position to acquire real talent.

The Knicks have NONE of that until 2015/16. No cap space, no picks, and no assets unless he starts tearing down next year and trades Chandlers and/or Melo. Amare isn't worth anything on the open market unless you want to take back horrendous salary match contracts and tie up the Knicks cap space for years.

No, this isn't something that gets fixed overnight, and bringing up the 2007 Celtics does nothing but point out how horrible the Knicks situation has become.

So tell me again how you think the Knicks will be there faster?

Celtics had assets for two blockbuster trades. We have capspace for two blockbuster FA signings.

Why do you keep bringing up contracts that expire next year again?

Even if were stuck with JR and Felton, those aren't exactly horrible bench pieces or role players. They are horrible when their workload is that of NBA starters and 2nd/3rd options.

Your talking in circles right now and not even defending your ludicrous 5 year assessment at all. You keep bringing up irrelevance like Amare's contract and ignoring the fact that we have added solid to very good role players every single year whether we had picks or not. We can attract vet mins, we will have MLE/MMLE, we will have first rounders in 2015 and 2017, we will add a couple Prigioni type gems along the way, we still have Timmy and Shump to develop.

The quest for role players and end of bench guys isn't going to be a problem - it never is.

Beltrans Mole
03-11-2014, 12:28 PM
How about your favorite team the Houston Rockets? Did it take them 5 years before they could begin gelling and become merely a playoff team too after adding their two major pieces? Come on dude.

You honestly just said its gonna take a full year to add our stars via FA, than another full year before we can add role players, than another full year before anyone can be coached, than another full year and we will finally make the playoffs in the freakin' East.

You must not be too productive at work.

Seriously, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard....3-5 years?? In today's NBA, teams turn from rags to riches overnight. Countless examples of this now. This isn't baseball where you need to groom and build a franchise through the farm system. We get Phil here, watch in 2015 how many players want to play with Melo while the Knicks actually have money to spend. It's not as bad of a situation as people make it out to be...plus, Timmy Hardaway Jr. is a nice young piece that could help this franchise.

D-Leethal
03-11-2014, 12:29 PM
A ROYAL MESS in terms of cap space? Jesus man, were going to have nothing but cap space after 1 season. Nobody is denying next year is going to suck balls. But a 5 year outlook before we can make the playoffs is an absolute joke, especially given the way you laid out those 5 years. Your calendar of events makes baby steps look like giant leaps.

colinskik
03-11-2014, 12:29 PM
The math is easy.

Next year - write off.
2015/16 - Cap space. How many stars do you expect to sign in one year? 1? Let's say 2. Where are your rotation players? Maybe you get 1 or 2. It will probably take at least 2 seasons to fill out the roster.
2016/17 - Filling out roster (see above) and beginning of working out schemes and chemistry
2017/18 - Team chemistry gelling, finer details worked out in terms of roles, rotations and schemes.
2018/19 - Contending at a play off level or better

That's at least 4 years the way I see it. Unless you think Lebron/Durant + 2 other "stars" are just walking in the door, you aren't going to have a contender in 2015/16. And even when the Heat signed Lebron/Wade/Bosh they didn't hit their stride until their 2nd year, and they had THREE top 10 players sign simultaneously who already liked each other and knew each other well.

If you're exceptionally lucky you might shave off a year if *EVERYTHING* went right... if you have any missteps, add a year. Either way, 3-5 years at a minimum. That's *YEARS* in my books.

How does your math get you to a real team sooner than that?

In my mathematical system, if the Knicks are signing 2 star players next like you suggested then they are a competitive team NEXT year.

Again, let's remember last year when the Knicks won 54 games. They haven't plummeted this year because they lost the talent from the likes of Kidd, Sheed, and Novak. What they lost was the leadership from Kidd, Sheed, and other veterans, which is why Woodson seems so lost this year.

Replace him with a good head coach and the Knicks still have the same core of talent they had last year. Replace him with a great coach and add some more stars around Melo, then I can't see a reason why you're looking at a five year plan. That's a next year plan.

nycericanguy
03-11-2014, 12:31 PM
The math is easy.

Next year - write off.
2015/16 - Cap space. How many stars do you expect to sign in one year? 1? Let's say 2. Where are your rotation players? Maybe you get 1 or 2. It will probably take at least 2 seasons to fill out the roster.
2016/17 - Filling out roster (see above) and beginning of working out schemes and chemistry
2017/18 - Team chemistry gelling, finer details worked out in terms of roles, rotations and schemes.
2018/19 - Contending at a play off level or better

That's at least 4 years the way I see it. Unless you think Lebron/Durant + 2 other "stars" are just walking in the door, you aren't going to have a contender in 2015/16. And even when the Heat signed Lebron/Wade/Bosh they didn't hit their stride until their 2nd year, and they had THREE top 10 players sign simultaneously who already liked each other and knew each other well.

If you're exceptionally lucky you might shave off a year if *EVERYTHING* went right... if you have any missteps, add a year. Either way, 3-5 years at a minimum. That's *YEARS* in my books.

How does your math get you to a real team sooner than that?

You're exaggerating greatly.

Teams with cap space can be built fast... MIA 2010?

Vets FLOCK to those teams, especially with PJ at the helm... it won't take 2 years to fill out a roster... vets are the easiest thing to come by in the NBA... and the knicks have been great at drafting and have their pick next year, and have not used their $3m this year which should at the very least allow them to buy a 2nd rounder this year if not a late 1st.

ANd chemistry doesn't take another 2 years...lol... MIA took all of 17 games before they went on a great run...

You're pointing to worst case scenarios.

Even next year doesn't have to be a write off... the core of a 54 win team is still here... the same team that gave IND everything they could handle... what if Bosh and stephenson leave? The East would be wide open again.

and i'm not even sure NY will go the two MAX route next to Melo...

KnickaBocka.44
03-11-2014, 12:35 PM
The Celtics didn't have Amare's contract on the books AND had draft picks.

The Knicks can make very few moves next year. Even taking Amare off the books STILL doesn't get them under the salary cap, so you can't sign free agents above the MLE this off season.

You can maybe move Melo and Chandler, unless you want to keep Melo. However, what exactly are you going to use as a trade asset? You want to give away Shumpert and THJr? JR Smith and Felton are at a very low trade value due to contract length, price, and off court issues.

Nobody is touching Felton between his crap play and looming court issues. JR Smith is a head case and underperforming. Pablo Prigioni will barely get you a pack of chips due to his age. Tyler is a min contract so you won't get much back for him.

And you have ONE draft pick in 2015 and 2017. You don't see another pick until 2018.

The Knicks is in a royal mess in terms of cap space and draft picks until 2015/16, which means the options for making team building moves prior to 2015/16 are very limited.

In specific reference to 2007, here is what actually happened...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_Boston_Celtics_season

I know, wikipedia isn't a great source but in this case they got it mostly right.

The Celtics had picks. They had cap space. They had assets. They were *already* in position to acquire real talent.

The Knicks have NONE of that until 2015/16. No cap space, no picks, and no assets unless he starts tearing down next year and trades Chandlers and/or Melo. Amare isn't worth anything on the open market unless you want to take back horrendous salary match contracts and tie up the Knicks cap space for years.

No, this isn't something that gets fixed overnight, and bringing up the 2007 Celtics does nothing but point out how horrible the Knicks situation has become.

So tell me again how you think the Knicks will be there faster?

Are you talking about this offseason or next offseason? Because Amare is only on the books for 1 more year.

Knicks fans aren't expecting to have a brand new roster ready to contend next year. No one thinks that is what's going to happen. So if you are here to tell people not to get too excited about next season, you are wasting your time.

After next year though, it's off to the races. The Knicks have their pick in 2015 and hopefully will have Melo re-signed already, then all we have to do is fill up the rest of the roster. SG is already taken care of with Smith and TH Jr. so we just need to find a PG a forward and a C to put around Melo, and a handful of capable bench players, one of which we will draft.

3 picks in the next 5 years actually sounds good to most Knick fans.

The Knicks don't need to have a great amount of assets because they aren't looking to make trades, they have the greatest asset of all in a big market: cap space.

torocan
03-11-2014, 12:36 PM
How about your favorite team the Houston Rockets? Did it take them 5 years to begin gelling and become merely a playoff team too after adding their two major pieces? Come on dude.

It took them 18 months of accumulating draft picks and making trades BEFORE they were in position to even acquire James Harden. AND they had assets to move for pieces (T-mac, picks, etc), AND they already Had a roster in place prior to making the move for Harden (Lin, Asik, Parsons, Tjones, PPatterson, Delfino and others after giving up Jeremy Lamb and K-Mart), AND they had cap space in place and going forward.

And even now, they're loaded with draft picks and STILL have cap space moving forward.

Take a look at Daryl Morey's trade history...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/moreyda99x.html

Starting from 2010 mid-season deadline when it was apparent that Yao was done, take a look at the sheer number of trades and signings.

So, 18 months from mid-season of 2010 to pick up Harden.

Then another year before they picked up Dwight. AND Parsons has turned out to be a fringe all star (2nd round pick 38th pick). They picked up Pat Beverley from Russia (buy out). Tjones was from a 1st round 18th pick. Asik and Lin they picked up in FA (Cap space). As well as Delfino (and eventually Casspi/Garcia). The list goes on.

Notice the trend? Draft picks, cap space, some luck (Parsons and TJones panning out). And we're now 4 years from the 2010 mid-season trade deadline. And that was with MOST things going right.

Championship contenders require a reliable 8-10 man roster. 2-3 stars only gets you part of the way there. Building the rest takes time.. either up front or afterwards.

So unless you see Felton, Prigioni, Smith and Co. as foundational rotation pieces there's a TON of work to do.

torocan
03-11-2014, 12:42 PM
You're exaggerating greatly.

Teams with cap space can be built fast... MIA 2010?

Miami was an anomaly. 3 x top 10 players ALL available at the same time ALL deciding to play together.

Here's the 2015/16 FA's upcoming...

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-salaries/nba-free-agents-2015-2016/

How many top 10 players do YOU see there that the Knicks can get in FA? *MAYBE* if you get Love AND Rondo you can shave off a year... but that's pretty much the perfect scenario.

I'm not painting a worst case scenario, I'm painting a typical scenario. If you're betting on Rondo AND Love, that's a best case scenario. Then you're still looking at 3 years as you can't skip the 1 year to gel and fill out at least SOME rotation players.

Even Lebron/Wade/Bosh didn't win a chip in their first year. And Rondo/Melo/Love is no Lebron/Wade/Bosh in 2010.

colinskik
03-11-2014, 12:47 PM
Back to the topic for a minute, if Phil comes aboard I hope he can recruit a coach to run the triangle. Would love to see what Melo can do in that system.

KnickaBocka.44
03-11-2014, 12:47 PM
It took them 18 months of accumulating draft picks and making trades BEFORE they were in position to even acquire James Harden. AND they had assets to move for pieces (T-mac, picks, etc), AND they already Had a roster in place prior to making the move for Harden (Lin, Asik, Parsons, Tjones, PPatterson, Delfino and others after giving up Jeremy Lamb and K-Mart), AND they had cap space in place and going forward.

And even now, they're loaded with draft picks and STILL have cap space moving forward.

Take a look at Daryl Morey's trade history...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/moreyda99x.html

Starting from 2010 mid-season deadline when it was apparent that Yao was done, take a look at the sheer number of trades and signings.

So, 18 months from mid-season of 2010 to pick up Harden.

Then another year before they picked up Dwight. AND Parsons has turned out to be a fringe all star (2nd round pick 38th pick). They picked up Pat Beverley from Russia (buy out). Tjones was from a 1st round 18th pick. Asik and Lin they picked up in FA (Cap space). As well as Delfino (and eventually Casspi/Garcia). The list goes on.

Notice the trend? Draft picks, cap space, some luck (Parsons and TJones panning out). And we're now 4 years from the 2010 mid-season trade deadline. And that was with MOST things going right.

Championship contenders require a reliable 8-10 man roster. 2-3 stars only gets you part of the way there. Building the rest takes time.. either up front or afterwards.

So unless you see Felton, Prigioni, Smith and Co. as foundational rotation pieces there's a TON of work to do.

"foundational rotational pieces" lol That is a bit of an oxymoron.

But in seriousness, 2-3 stars are the hardest to get. picking up 6 new role players to play with the stars is easier for a lot of resasons including the fact that they will sometimes take minimums and you can be over the cap and sign them.

Pierzynski4Prez
03-11-2014, 12:50 PM
Seriously, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard....3-5 years?? In today's NBA, teams turn from rags to riches overnight. Countless examples of this now. This isn't baseball where you need to groom and build a franchise through the farm system. We get Phil here, watch in 2015 how many players want to play with Melo while the Knicks actually have money to spend. It's not as bad of a situation as people make it out to be...plus, Timmy Hardaway Jr. is a nice young piece that could help this franchise.

Which ones?

D-Leethal
03-11-2014, 12:51 PM
It took them 18 months of accumulating draft picks and making trades BEFORE they were in position to even acquire James Harden. AND they had assets to move for pieces (T-mac, picks, etc), AND they already Had a roster in place prior to making the move for Harden (Lin, Asik, Parsons, Tjones, PPatterson, Delfino and others after giving up Jeremy Lamb and K-Mart), AND they had cap space in place and going forward.

And even now, they're loaded with draft picks and STILL have cap space moving forward.

Take a look at Daryl Morey's trade history...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/moreyda99x.html

Starting from 2010 mid-season deadline when it was apparent that Yao was done, take a look at the sheer number of trades and signings.

So, 18 months from mid-season of 2010 to pick up Harden.

Then another year before they picked up Dwight. AND Parsons has turned out to be a fringe all star (2nd round pick 38th pick). They picked up Pat Beverley from Russia (buy out). Tjones was from a 1st round 18th pick. Asik and Lin they picked up in FA (Cap space). As well as Delfino (and eventually Casspi/Garcia). The list goes on.

Notice the trend? Draft picks, cap space, some luck (Parsons and TJones panning out). And we're now 4 years from the 2010 mid-season trade deadline. And that was with MOST things going right.

Championship contenders require a reliable 8-10 man roster. 2-3 stars only gets you part of the way there. Building the rest takes time.. either up front or afterwards.

So unless you see Felton, Prigioni, Smith and Co. as foundational rotation pieces there's a TON of work to do.

Why do you keep bringing up trade assets? Were going shopping via free agency. We don't expect to trade for a star - we expect to acquire one. And we don't expect it to take 4 years after acquiring one to be a playoff team just like it took the Rockets 0 years.

You just listed a pretty good role players - no better than guys we acquire every year.

I think Felton, Smith can be solid role players. Not starters, not key options, role players, they aren't complete waste of roster space. Your ignoring Shump and Timmy, and I don't expect Prigioni to be here but I find no reason we can't find another Prigioni type like - again - we do every year.

Have we ever had trouble finding role players or quality bench guys?

And were not talking about the time leading up to acquiring the stars so your post about Yao in 2010 is irrelevant - were talking about the time after acquiring those stars it takes to "make the playoffs". We have drafted guys like Shump and Timmy these past few years so thats identical to you saying we started our rebuild 2 years ago going by your Rockets comparison of drafting Jones/Parsons. Knicks don't have to make a slew of trades to cut cap either - thats going to happen by itself because all of our contracts lined up together. It took Rockets exactly 0 full seasons after acquiring their stars to make their mark in the conference. It won't take us 4 full.

Pierzynski4Prez
03-11-2014, 12:52 PM
Even Lebron/Wade/Bosh didn't win a chip in their first year. And Rondo/Melo/Love is no Lebron/Wade/Bosh in 2010.

If Melo stays with NY this summer, won't have enough space to get both Rondo and Love, unless they can some way convince someone to take JR and Felton, which is very unlikely.

D-Leethal
03-11-2014, 12:55 PM
Miami was an anomaly. 3 x top 10 players ALL available at the same time ALL deciding to play together.

Here's the 2015/16 FA's upcoming...

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-salaries/nba-free-agents-2015-2016/

How many top 10 players do YOU see there that the Knicks can get in FA? *MAYBE* if you get Love AND Rondo you can shave off a year... but that's pretty much the perfect scenario.

I'm not painting a worst case scenario, I'm painting a typical scenario. If you're betting on Rondo AND Love, that's a best case scenario. Then you're still looking at 3 years as you can't skip the 1 year to gel and fill out at least SOME rotation players.

Even Lebron/Wade/Bosh didn't win a chip in their first year. And Rondo/Melo/Love is no Lebron/Wade/Bosh in 2010.

Were not talking about winning a chip our first year. We are refuting your ridiculous statement that it will take 4 years to make the freakin' playoffs.

shep33
03-11-2014, 12:57 PM
I'm not seeing how Melo and Love are a good fit.

Pierzynski4Prez
03-11-2014, 12:59 PM
Why do you keep bringing up trade assets? Were going shopping via free agency. We don't expect to trade for a star - we expect to acquire one. And we don't expect it to take 4 years after acquiring one to be a playoff team just like it took the Rockets 0 years.

You just listed a pretty good role players - no better than guys we acquire every year.

I think Felton, Smith can be solid role players. Not starters, not key options, role players, they aren't complete waste of roster space. Your ignoring Shump and Timmy, and I don't expect Prigioni to be here but I find no reason we can't find another Prigioni type like - again - we do every year.

Have we ever had trouble finding role players or quality bench guys?

And were not talking about the time leading up to acquiring the stars so your post about Yao in 2010 is irrelevant - were talking about the time after acquiring those stars it takes to "make the playoffs". We have drafted guys like Shump and Timmy these past few years so thats identical to you saying we started our rebuild 2 years ago going by your Rockets comparison of drafting Jones/Parsons. Knicks don't have to make a slew of trades to cut cap either - thats going to happen by itself because all of our contracts lined up together. It took Rockets exactly 0 full seasons after acquiring their stars to make their mark in the conference. It won't take us 4 full.

I'm sorry, just reading this makes me crack up. Heard about this full-proof plan years ago leading up to 2010 from the Knick fans on this forum. You've been on this site a long time so I'm sure you can relate.

I do agree with you though on that 4 year plan. If best case scenario happens, it won't take that long to contend, although I don't think those players make up a championship team regardless.

D-Leethal
03-11-2014, 12:59 PM
I'm not seeing how Melo and Love are a good fit.

I don't like the fit either. I'm fine pairing Melo with a solid PG and the right mix of defenders and shooters instead of trying to form a "big 3".

D-Leethal
03-11-2014, 01:02 PM
I'm sorry, just reading this makes me crack up. Heard about this full-proof plan years ago leading up to 2010 from the Knick fans on this forum. You've been on this site a long time so I'm sure you can relate.

We are all talking in hypotheticals here. I am saying its not going to take 4 years for the hypothetical 2015 team to make the playoffs. I think both of our posts were going on the assumption that in 2015 were going to find some star worthy FAs and the discussion is what will happen AFTER that.

nycericanguy
03-11-2014, 01:04 PM
If Melo stays with NY this summer, won't have enough space to get both Rondo and Love, unless they can some way convince someone to take JR and Felton, which is very unlikely.

If Melo is really willing to take less like he said it's possible... the cap is projected at around $65m in 2015. And I'm sure NY could package Shump with either JR or Felton next year if need be. Those guys will only have 1 year left. Clips were reportedly willing to take Felton along with Shump for 2 2nd rounders but Knicks wanted more.

JR & Felton should be able to increase their value next year if they play better and because their deals will only have 1 year left. Heck, if Felton goes to jail his contract might be voided anyway.

They also could use the stretch clause on either... Knicks will have tons of options in 2015. If Melo takes $18m they could put together a great team.

That being said, I'm not sold on Love and think he's going to LA anyway...

D-Leethal
03-11-2014, 01:06 PM
JR's salary was paid 2/3s up front so by the time he's expiring, he's going to be an asset to trade not a liability to dump. He will be a 6-8M expiring that the receiving party would have to pay 2-3M for, and than waive for all I care.

nycericanguy
03-11-2014, 01:08 PM
JR's salary was paid 2/3s up front so by the time he's expiring, he's going to be an asset to trade not a liability to dump.

another good point... JR is the opposite of Lin... JR's cap hit will be $6m next year, but the team that has him pays him about vet min.

Lin's cap hit is 8.3m but the team that has pays him $15m.

So if HOU wanted to get rid of Lin, they could save about $13m next year by trading for JR...

Pierzynski4Prez
03-11-2014, 01:14 PM
If Melo is really willing to take less like he said it's possible... the cap is projected at around $65m in 2015. And I'm sure NY could package Shump with either JR or Felton next year if need be. Those guys will only have 1 year left. Clips were reportedly willing to take Felton along with Shump for 2 2nd rounders but Knicks wanted more.

JR & Felton should be able to increase their value next year if they play better and because their deals will only have 1 year left. Heck, if Felton goes to jail his contract might be voided anyway.

They also could use the stretch clause on either... Knicks will have tons of options in 2015. If Melo takes $18m they could put together a great team.

That being said, I'm not sold on Love and think he's going to LA anyway...

I think if Melo stays, he'll take less, but not a lot less. Like 5/100-110 instead of 5/129 or whatever his max is. He'll be in year 2 of his contract if he stays in Summer 2015, so at least 18-20 annually at that point. For both Love and Rondo, they would need to accept probably around 15 mil for their 1st year salary (so contracts of say 4/70 when their max will be around 4/95).

This is assuming you still have some pieces on the roster like 1-2 of Shump, Felton, JR (5-10 mil worth). And then Hardaway, 2015 draft pick, roster holds (3-5 mil worth). Rondo to me seems destined for a payday since his current contract wasn't huge. And I agree Love is likely destined to LA unless another team trades for him first and resigns him for the max.

Also, nobody knows what the 2015 cap will be, just like nobody knows what it will be this summer. One writer on ESPN projected 62 this year. But if you look at the history of the cap the last number of years, I don't see any way it goes above 60-61 mil. That would be a decent jump considering where it's been the last like 7-8 years. I can't see it going from 58 mil to 65 mil in 2 years. I'd think 62 at most for 2015.

torocan
03-11-2014, 01:19 PM
Why do you keep bringing up trade assets? Were going shopping via free agency. We don't expect to trade for a star - we expect to acquire one. And we don't expect it to take 4 years after acquiring one to be a playoff team just like it took the Rockets 0 years.

You just listed a pretty good role players - no better than guys we acquire every year.

I think Felton, Smith can be solid role players. Not starters, not key options, role players, they aren't complete waste of roster space. Your ignoring Shump and Timmy, and I don't expect Prigioni to be here but I find no reason we can't find another Prigioni type like - again - we do every year.

Have we ever had trouble finding role players or quality bench guys?

And were not talking about the time leading up to acquiring the stars so your post about Yao in 2010 is irrelevant - were talking about the time after acquiring those stars it takes to "make the playoffs". We have drafted guys like Shump and Timmy these past few years so thats identical to you saying we started our rebuild 2 years ago going by your Rockets comparison of drafting Jones/Parsons. Knicks don't have to make a slew of trades to cut cap either - thats going to happen by itself because all of our contracts lined up together. It took Rockets exactly 0 full seasons after acquiring their stars to make their mark in the conference. It won't take us 4 full.

The point was not the moving of assets to acquire Stars. That's a fixed timeline for the Knicks (roster to clear).

The point was you still have to build the roster. So, depending on what stars you get if you have no trade assets, then you're trying to pick up those pieces in FA. And since FA is your *ONLY* method of acquiring those roster players, you're limited to Vet Min's and cap space.

If you're signing 3 x max guys, you just don't have much money left. Melo's slotted to make $25M. Let's say he takes $18M. Now you have to get 2 other stars that are not only available, but willing to take pay cuts.

Let's say PJ pulls that off because he's PJ. Now you've eaten $50-60M in cap space. You got maybe $10M left over, except Felton, JR and Prigioni eat cap space into 2015/16.

As of today, the Knicks have $12.7M on the books *ALREADY* for 2015/16. Felton + Smith are guaranteed $10.9M alone on Player Options. $1.7M for Prigioni.

Then you have QO for Shump ($3.9M), and a $1.3M Team Option for THJr.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

So, unless you move Felton and/or Smith plus others AND can get usable players in return, you have NO room to sign FA's above the MLE. Yes, you can fill SOME of the roster spots with vets, but you still need at least a COUPLE $4-5M players otherwise you'll have no real bench and no support on the starting line up.

So yes, there's some cap space to clear if you want to build a roster after you've signed your "stars". Unless you want to twiddle your thumbs for another year of course, which is perfectly plausible.

nycericanguy
03-11-2014, 01:23 PM
I think if Melo stays, he'll take less, but not a lot less. Like 5/100-110 instead of 5/129 or whatever his max is. He'll be in year 2 of his contract if he stays in Summer 2015, so at least 18-20 annually at that point. For both Love and Rondo, they would need to accept probably around 15 mil for their 1st year salary (so contracts of say 4/70 when their max will be around 4/95).

This is assuming you still have some pieces on the roster like 1-2 of Shump, Felton, JR (5-10 mil worth). And then Hardaway, 2015 draft pick, roster holds (3-5 mil worth). Rondo to me seems destined for a payday since his current contract wasn't huge.

Also, nobody knows what the 2015 cap will be, just like nobody knows what it will be this summer. One writer on ESPN projected 62 this year. But if you look at the history of the cap the last number of years, I don't see any way it goes above 60-61 mil. That would be a decent jump considering where it's been the last like 7-8 years. I can't see it going from 58 mil to 65 mil in 2 years. I'd think 62 at most for 2015.

i've read revenue has gone up, so they project it at $65m.

Melo could take a deal like 20/18/20/22/24... so his cap hit would be lower in 2015.

Rondo makes $11m in his current deal... $15m would probably be on the high side... but you know what? I'm fine going after someone like Lin, Reggie Jackson...or Rubio...etc... at less... 8-12m.

Reggie Jackson is young with upside and there's no way OKC will give him big money, if they didn't pay Harden they sure ain't gonna pay Jackson. If you can get him for around $7-8m you save alot of money to spend elsewhere...

again, it's options galore... even Dragic has an opt out in 2015.

People are acting like Love & Rondo are the only ways to go, and I'm not even sure that's the best way to go.

KnickaBocka.44
03-11-2014, 01:25 PM
The point was not the moving of assets to acquire Stars. That's a fixed timeline for the Knicks (roster to clear).

The point was you still have to build the roster. So, depending on what stars you get if you have no trade assets, then you're trying to pick up those pieces in FA. And since FA is your *ONLY* method of acquiring those roster players, you're limited to Vet Min's and cap space.

If you're signing 3 x max guys, you just don't have much money left. Melo's slotted to make $25M. Let's say he takes $18M. Now you have to get 2 other stars that are not only available, but willing to take pay cuts.

Let's say PJ pulls that off because he's PJ. Now you've eaten $50-60M in cap space. You got maybe $10M left over, except Felton, JR and Prigioni eat cap space into 2015/16.

As of today, the Knicks have $12.7M on the books *ALREADY* for 2015/16. Felton + Smith are guaranteed $10.9M alone on Player Options. $1.7M for Prigioni.

Then you have QO for Shump ($3.9M), and a $1.3M Team Option for THJr.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

So, unless you move Felton and/or Smith plus others AND can get usable players in return, you have NO room to sign FA's above the MLE. Yes, you can fill SOME of the roster spots with vets, but you still need at least a COUPLE $4-5M players otherwise you'll have no real bench and no support on the starting line up.

So yes, there's some cap space to clear if you want to build a roster after you've signed your "stars". Unless you want to twiddle your thumbs for another year of course, which is perfectly plausible.

You act as if that team isn't getting into the playoffs or something, that's not a realistic outlook.

Felton and Smith ARE usable players for the bench. If the Knicks go into the season with Rondo/Hardway Jr./Melo/Love/(insert defensive minded center here) with J.R., Felton and their 2015 first round pick coming off the bench, they only need 1 or 2 more players to fill out their rotation.

torocan
03-11-2014, 01:42 PM
You act as if that team isn't getting into the playoffs or something, that's not a realistic outlook.

Felton and Smith ARE usable players for the bench. If the Knicks go into the season with Rondo/Hardway Jr./Melo/Love/(insert defensive minded center here) with J.R., Felton and their 2015 first round pick coming off the bench, they only need 1 or 2 more players to fill out their rotation.

I'm not talking about getting into the play offs. I'm talking about building a championship contender. IE, a team that can legitimately compete for HCA and make deep play off runs. If all you want is to get into the Eastern play offs, Melo + Chandler + decent rotational pieces is MORE than enough for that.

Yes, you can use Felton + Smith off the bench, but do you *really* want to spend $10M on JR and Felton to play bench minutes?

As for the "defensive minded center", how much do you think that's actually going to cost? That's an $8-12M player you're talking about. And it's not like those guys grow on trees. Chandler won't get $14M, but he certainly could *easily* get $10-12M in FA. Even if they take discounts, they're still not vet minimum or even MLE players by any stretch.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Phil Jackson can't pull off something amazing in 3 years, I just think we need to temper our expectations with the possibility that a LOT of things have to go right for that to happen.

Blitzace137
03-11-2014, 01:49 PM
I'm not seeing how Melo and Love are a good fit.

There not, some fans are delusional, pairing them together is redundant, they play the same position and do the same things.

Blitzace137
03-11-2014, 01:51 PM
If Melo is really willing to take less like he said it's possible... the cap is projected at around $65m in 2015. And I'm sure NY could package Shump with either JR or Felton next year if need be. Those guys will only have 1 year left. Clips were reportedly willing to take Felton along with Shump for 2 2nd rounders but Knicks wanted more.

JR & Felton should be able to increase their value next year if they play better and because their deals will only have 1 year left. Heck, if Felton goes to jail his contract might be voided anyway.

They also could use the stretch clause on either... Knicks will have tons of options in 2015. If Melo takes $18m they could put together a great team.

That being said, I'm not sold on Love and think he's going to LA anyway...

Nobody's taking Felton now, not after being charged, were stuck with fatboy.

Blitzace137
03-11-2014, 01:53 PM
another good point... JR is the opposite of Lin... JR's cap hit will be $6m next year, but the team that has him pays him about vet min.

Lin's cap hit is 8.3m but the team that has pays him $15m.

So if HOU wanted to get rid of Lin, they could save about $13m next year by trading for JR...

I'm with it, JR for Lin makes sense for both teams, once the season ends.

Beltrans Mole
03-11-2014, 02:07 PM
Which ones?

Are you really denying that teams can transform into contenders in one offseason? Look at the Heat, Celtics, even the Rockets right now...

nycericanguy
03-11-2014, 02:15 PM
I'm with it, JR for Lin makes sense for both teams, once the season ends.

Take it a step further, Bargs, JR & Shump for Asik & Lin.

HOU would save a TON there...and get a quality young piece that can shoot and defend for them. Lin and Asik due $30m next year.

Bargs $11m, JR about $2m and Shump $3m. So they save $14m next year doing that deal and get a young piece.

A trade like that alone puts NY right back in contention next year with a good coach.

Heck if I'm the KNicks I do Bargs & Shump alone for Asik & Lin... then HOU saves close to $20m.

That's a lot of money, especially if NY throws in $3m cash, $20m+ to get rid of two guys that have barely been playing... and getting a young piece back that fits?

I think HOU bites.

Blitzace137
03-11-2014, 02:18 PM
.

Blitzace137
03-11-2014, 02:19 PM
Are you really denying that teams can transform into contenders in one offseason? Look at the Heat, Celtics, even the Rockets right now...

Eh it can happen but it's not likely. There's always going to be exceptions. Don't really like people bringing up the Heats, you add Lebron to any team and there likely a 50 win team. Celtics had three solid pieces. Paul Pierce in his prime, a young Rondo, and solid Pieces in Perkins and Tony Allen. Rockets didn't build a contender over an offseason? They loaded up on picks and assets, while keeping flexibility. Season one they added Lin, Harden, Asik than they added Dwight, Rockets were trying to trade for a star player for years before that.

It really depends on how much money Melo signs for, I'll keep saying this, if Carmelo take the full max it going to be extremely difficult for the Knicks to build a true contending team. If he takes a cut and his salary starts around $18 million that you have something. The most realistic situation I see happening for the Knicks is a trio of Melo/Gasol/Reggie Jackson or Rondo/Melo/Asik, I personally would re-build from the ground up because that's a good team but not sure if it's a true contender, it's a gamble either way but rebuilding is the safer bet which the Knicks probably won't do.

Blitzace137
03-11-2014, 02:22 PM
Take it a step further, Bargs, JR & Shump for Asik & Lin.

HOU would save a TON there...and get a quality young piece that can shoot and defend for them. Lin and Asik due $30m next year.

Bargs $11m, JR about $2m and Shump $3m. So they save $14m next year doing that deal and get a young piece.

A trade like that alone puts NY right back in contention next year with a good coach.

Heck if I'm the KNicks I do Bargs & Shump alone for Asik & Lin... then HOU saves close to $20m.

That's a lot of money, especially if NY throws in $3m cash, $20m+ to get rid of two guys that have barely been playing... and getting a young piece back that fits?

I think HOU bites.

I think so too, not to many teams would take on Lin's contract. This year there only paying him around 5 million and are contending for a title, which is the reason I think they held on to him. Next season with the Poison Pill and having to pay Parsons, they'll trade Lin and Asik without a doubt.

Pierzynski4Prez
03-11-2014, 02:22 PM
Are you really denying that teams can transform into contenders in one offseason? Look at the Heat, Celtics, even the Rockets right now...

So 3 teams in 7 years. You said rags to riches, meaning from bottom feeder to a contender. Miami was already a playoff team and happened to grab the best player of this generation. Houston had a plethora of assets and cap space, enough to obtain Harden and still sign Dwight. Teams shouldn't fully rely on FA, because it can bite you. NY fans should know this enough after 2010 happened. That doesn't normally happen. And even so, the players available in 2015, outside of Love, are nowhere near the star level that the Heat, Celtics, and Rockets obtained.

shep33
03-11-2014, 02:30 PM
I don't like the fit either. I'm fine pairing Melo with a solid PG and the right mix of defenders and shooters instead of trying to form a "big 3".


Yeah, Rondo should be their first priority.

shep33
03-11-2014, 02:36 PM
There not, some fans are delusional, pairing them together is redundant, they play the same position and do the same things.

Yup, a pg and center should be their targets. Perhaps Rondo and Marc Gasol?

torocan
03-11-2014, 02:38 PM
Yeah, Rondo should be their first priority.

I actually think that makes sense.

He'll be affordable, and he fits well. Heck, Melo, Rondo and Chandler + the right pieces would be a serious team. Fill in some 3 and D type guys and you got the start of a contending team. A good stretch 3 that can rebound and defend, and a nice 2 guard/combo guard would fit that nicely.

You could *force* a fit with Melo/Love, but that means Melo sliding to the 3 and not sure that's the best use of Melo. He's shown to be a dominant player at the 4. That's assuming you could get Love... and I think he's a long shot at best.

Beltrans Mole
03-11-2014, 02:38 PM
So 3 teams in 7 years. You said rags to riches, meaning from bottom feeder to a contender. Miami was already a playoff team and happened to grab the best player of this generation. Houston had a plethora of assets and cap space, enough to obtain Harden and still sign Dwight. Teams shouldn't fully rely on FA, because it can bite you. NY fans should know this enough after 2010 happened. That doesn't normally happen. And even so, the players available in 2015, outside of Love, are nowhere near the star level that the Heat, Celtics, and Rockets obtained.

Rags to riches might have been an exaggeration, but the Knicks aren't exactly "rags" when it comes to 2015. They will have Melo on the backend of his prime still and ton of cap space to bring in marquee players. Then you'll have the kind of role players who will come to play for less money because of the how good the team could potentially be, and you'll have Phil Jackson (maybe) coming here to help right the ship in terms of team management.

My whole point is that this franchise can be turned around way faster than Torocan is giving credit for.

Blitzace137
03-11-2014, 02:40 PM
Yup, a pg and center should be their targets. Perhaps Rondo and Marc Gasol?

Depends on how much Melo takes like I said in the previous post, on second thoughts maybe it can happen even if Melo gets the full max, I'm not sure if Rondo or Gasol will be looking for a max deal. Again, It really depends on the money, can't speak in absolutes because I don't know what types of contract any of those guys will be seeking.

torocan
03-11-2014, 02:42 PM
Rags to riches might have been an exaggeration, but the Knicks aren't exactly "rags" when it comes to 2015. They will have Melo on the backend of his prime still and ton of cap space to bring in marquee players. Then you'll have the kind of role players who will come to play for less money because of the how good the team could potentially be, and you'll have Phil Jackson (maybe) coming here to help right the ship in terms of team management.

My whole point is that this franchise can be turned around way faster than Torocan is giving credit for.

You honestly think that the Knicks can become a legitimate contender in less than 3 years? As in NOT a middling team like Phoenix, but a team like Spurs, Indiana, Heat, OKC, Clippers, Rockets and maybe GSW?

I'm thinking Chips. You can make the Knicks an eastern play off team in 2 years. The East is just that bad. However, does being a play off in the East mean anything? Is that why they're talking about paying Phil Jackson $12M?

You pay Phil Jackson because you want him to build a contending team. That's why you bring in a guy with 13 rings. That won't happen in less than 3-5 years in my view. Unless you see a way to do it in 2...

Beltrans Mole
03-11-2014, 03:07 PM
You honestly think that the Knicks can become a legitimate contender in less than 3 years? As in NOT a middling team like Phoenix, but a team like Spurs, Indiana, Heat, OKC, Clippers, Rockets and maybe GSW?

I'm thinking Chips. You can make the Knicks an eastern play off team in 2 years. The East is just that bad. However, does being a play off in the East mean anything? Is that why they're talking about paying Phil Jackson $12M?

You pay Phil Jackson because you want him to build a contending team. That's why you bring in a guy with 13 rings. That won't happen in less than 3-5 years in my view. Unless you see a way to do it in 2...

The Knicks are probably going to make the Eastern playoffs as is, so I don't see how making the team entirely better in 2015 would make them any worse than a 3-4 seed in the East. Hell, they were the 2 seed last year and have had a lot of things go wrong this season.

mudvayne387
03-11-2014, 03:08 PM
You honestly think that the Knicks can become a legitimate contender in less than 3 years? As in NOT a middling team like Phoenix, but a team like Spurs, Indiana, Heat, OKC, Clippers, Rockets and maybe GSW?

I'm thinking Chips. You can make the Knicks an eastern play off team in 2 years. The East is just that bad. However, does being a play off in the East mean anything? Is that why they're talking about paying Phil Jackson $12M?

You pay Phil Jackson because you want him to build a contending team. That's why you bring in a guy with 13 rings. That won't happen in less than 3-5 years in my view. Unless you see a way to do it in 2...

The way to do it in 2 is to let Carmelo walk. Then settle for a mediocre 2014-2015 season in which they own their own pick. Sign two staples in F/A to pair with Hardaway and the new rookie, and hope and pray veterans will take less money to try and compete for a title.

Now this is much easier said than done, and this philosophy has failed in the past, but this is the only way they can be legitimate contenders in the near future.

Rondo
Hardaway Jr
W. Chandler
Love
T. Chandler

Still, I'm not sure that team could compete for a title ...

KniCks4LiFe
03-11-2014, 03:11 PM
I think the hugest mistake this fanbase [Knicks] is making and the media who's basically lying to us are making, is that Phil Jackson would build the team around Melo. We haven't heard that from anybody near Phil's camp. Not one person has put their name to this.

Jamiecballer
03-11-2014, 03:13 PM
Contracts to move? We will have nearly every single contract on our books to free agency after next season. The contracts will be moving themselves, we don't have to do jack to move them.

Why can't we fill in the blanks during the same offseason as the major FA? We have to wait a full year to round out the roster? If we have done ANYTHING well, its filling out the roster with quality pieces year after year after year.

It will take 2 full seasons before our roster can start to gel and we can work out rotations. Seriously? Year 3 is going to be a gelling year? How about years 1 and 2? We really need end of bench guys and role players begin gelling?

even you can admit that's a very optimistic take you guys have. it takes time. 90% of the time.

KniCks4LiFe
03-11-2014, 03:19 PM
@PeteCarroll: Congrats to Phil Jackson on his new role with the Knicks! It's good to have him back in the NBA!

:shrug:

milominderbinde
03-11-2014, 05:11 PM
I have a hard time buying that Phil is willing to work for Dolan. The only people who work for Dolan are those with few options.

torocan
03-11-2014, 05:35 PM
I have a hard time buying that Phil is willing to work for Dolan. The only people who work for Dolan are those with few options.

Broussard is basically saying that Dolan is desperate right now. Screaming from the fans, uproar from shareholders, and he's starting to believe that Melo walking is now a very real possibility. The heat is on and Dolan wants out of the kitchen.

And you can bet that Phil isn't going to go in without an iron clad contract, written in blood, in triplicate...

abe_froman
03-11-2014, 05:42 PM
Broussard is basically saying that Dolan is desperate right now. Screaming from the fans, uproar from shareholders, and he's starting to believe that Melo walking is now a very real possibility. The heat is on and Dolan wants out of the kitchen.

And you can bet that Phil isn't going to go in without an iron clad contract, written in blood, in triplicate...
yeah,i think some people(me included) need someone other than "sources" brousaard,or screamin' a to believe a story....just they have been so epically wrong too many times to hold any credibility(not saying it wont/cant happen,just would rather hear from wojo or kennedy reporting this)

torocan
03-11-2014, 06:08 PM
yeah,i think some people(me included) need someone other than "sources" brousaard,or screamin' a to believe a story....just they have been so epically wrong too many times to hold any credibility(not saying it wont/cant happen,just would rather hear from wojo or kennedy reporting this)

Oh, nothing is real until Woj says something.

However, I think there's enough reports that the idea of the Knicks and PJ talking to each other talking is real. The only question is whether it actually happens.

Interestingly, a comment I found WAY more interesting (and credible) was a casual comment I heard on ESPNLA on Mason and Ireland (love the internet).

One of the hosts was saying he ran into a mutual friend of Jeannie Buss, and he asked her if Jeannie would *really* allow Phil to go to NY. Apparently Jeannie said to her that she wasn't going to ask Phil to wait any longer for the Lakers. He's ready to return to basketball and he's waited long enough.

This makes me think that this is serious. And maybe, just maybe Phil is going to sign assuming he gets what he wants (money and control).

Isn't it strange that I find an offhand comment about a friend of Jeanie Buss more credible than Chris Broussard? :)

xxplayerxx23
03-12-2014, 12:27 AM
http://lakerholicz.com/nba-rumors-phil-jackson-agrees-principle-become-president-new-york-knicks-basketball-operations/2014/03/11
Pretty much official

beliges
03-12-2014, 01:24 PM
This is no longer the Laker franchise we all knew. How the Lakers organization decides to let essentially one of their own go without any attempt to keep him is mind boggling. Especially considering that individual is arguably the greatest coach in American sports history and a Laker icon at this point. I cant figure out what the organization is thinking or what theyre plans are, but it is beginning to feel like there will be a significant amount of animosity in Lakerland from the fans directly pointed at the ownership. Its a very interesting dynamic that the new owner of the Lakers is quickly becoming public enemy no 1 in LA while the last owner (Jerry Buss) was one of the most beloved individuals in the city. My my my how things have changed.

lpdunks8
03-12-2014, 01:56 PM
This is no longer the Laker franchise we all knew. How the Lakers organization decides to let essentially one of their own go without any attempt to keep him is mind boggling. Especially considering that individual is arguably the greatest coach in American sports history and a Laker icon at this point. I cant figure out what the organization is thinking or what theyre plans are, but it is beginning to feel like there will be a significant amount of animosity in Lakerland from the fans directly pointed at the ownership. Its a very interesting dynamic that the new owner of the Lakers is quickly becoming public enemy no 1 in LA while the last owner (Jerry Buss) was one of the most beloved individuals in the city. My my my how things have changed.

Too many people aren't getting this. Jim Buss is NOT the owner of the Lakers. The majority ownership belongs to the combination of all of the Buss children. Jeanie is the Governor (leader of the group) and President of Business Ops. Jim is the President of Basketball Ops.

Phil wants to be the President of Basketball Ops. Jeanie can't just fire her brother. A majority of his siblings would have to vote to fire him. The other option is Jim resigning and recommending to the others that Phil replaces him. What makes anyone think either of those would happen?

1_team_1_dream
03-12-2014, 01:58 PM
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1719135.1394646101!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/bussweb13s-1-web.jpg

shep33
03-12-2014, 01:59 PM
There are reports that Phil may get 15 mill a year plus ownership shares. You have to wonder if it was a desperation move by Dolan with the heat he's been getting and the planned protests from Knick fans.

15 mill + ownership stakes. Pretty sure Phil takes that deal from any NBA team lol. Still a good play by Dolan. This essentially throws Phil in the path of fire if things do go wrong, and if things go right, Phil will get his credit, but so will Dolan for bringing him in.

torocan
03-12-2014, 02:10 PM
There are reports that Phil may get 15 mill a year plus ownership shares. You have to wonder if it was a desperation move by Dolan with the heat he's been getting and the planned protests from Knick fans.

15 mill + ownership stakes. Pretty sure Phil takes that deal from any NBA team lol. Still a good play by Dolan. This essentially throws Phil in the path of fire if things do go wrong, and if things go right, Phil will get his credit, but so will Dolan for bringing him in.

There's no "wonder" here. Dolan is desperate right now.

Worst season in ages, Melo on the verge of leaving, fan protest coming, pressure from the public and shareholders...

I suspect that in his mind, this is "taking control" of the situation, even if it means giving control to Phil Jackson. However, for a guy with Dolan's ego, Phil Jackson might be the *only* man on the planet with enough clout for him to justify giving up control.

After all, if he can't give up control to an 11 time champion, who WOULD he give up control to?

If it works, Dolan's a genius. If it doesn't, he can say, "I got you Phil Jackson... what more do you expect?"

Win, win for Dolan. And as long as it gets Dolan out of the front office, it's a win for the Knicks.

Max.This
03-12-2014, 03:17 PM
its not my money. I could careless if they give him 150 million

xxplayerxx23
03-12-2014, 03:24 PM
There's no "wonder" here. Dolan is desperate right now.

Worst season in ages, Melo on the verge of leaving, fan protest coming, pressure from the public and shareholders...

I suspect that in his mind, this is "taking control" of the situation, even if it means giving control to Phil Jackson. However, for a guy with Dolan's ego, Phil Jackson might be the *only* man on the planet with enough clout for him to justify giving up control.

After all, if he can't give up control to an 11 time champion, who WOULD he give up control to?

If it works, Dolan's a genius. If it doesn't, he can say, "I got you Phil Jackson... what more do you expect?"

Win, win for Dolan. And as long as it gets Dolan out of the front office, it's a win for the Knicks.

Worst season in ages? Knicks has only been good for two years lol

D-Leethal
03-12-2014, 04:16 PM
even you can admit that's a very optimistic take you guys have. it takes time. 90% of the time.

The conversation started saying "if we hit it in FA and keep Melo it will take X time to make the playoffs". His take was 4 years. I think thats ridiculous. Whether or not we will actually keep Melo and get some nice pieces with a ton of cap space is a story for another day. My post was strictly saying, its not gonna take a 3 years to add role players and make the playoffs. Knicks have been very good at finding role players. Making the playoffs in the East is a joke. Thats all I'm saying.

When the pieces are in place it might take a few years to become a championship contender, but if the talent is there and the talent makes sense being placed next to each other, teams have been known to hit the ground running. It doesn't take four years to gel into a playoff team when you already have your stars and some solid role players in place.

D-Leethal
03-12-2014, 04:18 PM
Worst season in ages? Knicks has only been good for two years lol

Hyperbole seems to be the norm nowadays for Toro. 3 full seasons before the Knicks can get coached and learn a system, 2 full seasons to acquire 2-3 role players. 4 seasons to make the playoffs.

3RDASYSTEM
03-12-2014, 04:39 PM
That was the only year that they were all in their prime. Since then Wade has fallen out of his prime.

Gasol was not then nor ever has he been a top 5 player in the league. The 2009 and 2010 Lakers had a 37 year old point guard and outcast from other teams except for Kobe and Pau. Bynum was always hurt and never a factor in the finals.

Phils system always elevated everyone statistical numbers. Guys had their career years under Jackson. Shaq never was as good as he was under Phil. Shaqs best years were from 28 to 31. That should be when guys start getting worse. But Phil elevated Shaqs game even though he was in the latter part of his prime. Same thing with Gasol.

And if not Phil, who is the best?

PHIL's system didn't elevate players at all, especially SHAQ or JORDAN it just elevated ball movement/cutting and passing to open man

JORDAN avg 28ppg as a rookie and would have won those scoring titles without PHIL's system, but really TEX W system to really be honest, SHAQ avg like 24 and 14 as a rookie so they would have been dominant in latter stages of career because they were so damn good day 1 rookie year

they were dominant from day 1, without anybody's sytem, they won titles with PHIL and SHAQ did without also, and got there in ORLANDO without PHIL system

it didn't elevate those guys, if anything they elevated PHIL and made it easier to coach the best players of they era

NYKnickFanatic
03-12-2014, 04:51 PM
PHIL's system didn't elevate players at all, especially SHAQ or JORDAN it just elevated ball movement/cutting and passing to open man

JORDAN avg 28ppg as a rookie and would have won those scoring titles without PHIL's system, but really TEX W system to really be honest, SHAQ avg like 24 and 14 as a rookie so they would have been dominant in latter stages of career because they were so damn good day 1 rookie year

they were dominant from day 1, without anybody's sytem, they won titles with PHIL and SHAQ did without also, and got there in ORLANDO without PHIL system

it didn't elevate those guys, if anything they elevated PHIL and made it easier to coach the best players of they era

Why so butt hurt?


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