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ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 12:14 PM
What "statistics and facts" say Kobe isn't better than Lebron?! Basketball isn't a game stats, its a game of skill and wining. Name a player beside Jordan that has a better combination offensive and defensive skill? 5 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 81 points, 4 AMVPs, 15 All Star games, 11 NBA First team, 4th all time scorer, 37 game winners, dunk champion, 12 three pointers in one game, 35 PPG in a season. Let me know when your favorite player has accomplished that and more. And talking about skills, what skills does Lebron have? Because being a 250lb man doesn't make you skilled and talented.. That's how Lebron dominates, using his physical power to dominate in the paint, having no constant jump-shot. But that's not a talent, basketball is not bodybuilding Lebron fans.. Kobe has a better jump shot, is more clutch, has a better basketball IQ, has more rings, is more loyal, does not flop and is more determinant to succeed.. And the ones that tell that Kobe was carried in those rings are total idiots, not only because it's not true, but at least Kobe stayed loyal to the same team for over 15 years, and didn't take the easy path to greatness like Lebron did, when he entered a team full of all-stars because he proved that alone he couldn't win anything. Also last year, Kobe and Lebron's numbers were very close, and just remember that Kobe is 35 years old and Lebron is in his prime. Maybe Lebron is slightly better now, but he is nowhere close to a prime Kobe.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFvN4PmO1ElxJYXDjAAtmB0dbju1ctJ Sos5pj3au_wMmhwfno9Fg

Myth No.1: Lebron has more MVPs. Kobe should have won regular season MVPs in the following years: 2001, 2003, 2005-2010. Kobe averaged at least 27 ppg, 5rebpg, 5astpg while being all nba1st team in EVERY one of those years. That includes playing on dominant/winning teams (2001, 2003,2008-2010) and played well through injury/team injury (shaq/bynum). That also includes putting up the best stats in the year (2006-2007). 36 ppg/32 ppg respectively. (while keeping 5 rebpg 5 astpg/all nba 1st team D).

Myth No.2: Lebron is the Chosen-One. LeBron was destined "the chosen one" but won NOTHING when he was on the Cavs. He was self-proclaimed "King" and his slogan "Witness" was given to him WITHOUT WINNING. He should've been called Ringless when he was on the cavs because he brought nothing to back to Cleveland. He couldn't win any championships, so he ran to Miami where 3 (Yes, three) hall of famers were waiting for him (Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen) with a hall of fame Architect in Pat Riley. Jordan never had more than 1 all-star on his team in a single year, while Kobe had two all-stars only once (if you count bynum an all-star lol). Lebron has had at-least 2 all-stars on his team for 4 straight years.

Myth No.3: Lebron James is clutch. Lebron james 2011 NBA finals: 2011 nba finals: 18 ppg, 48% fg, 60% ft, 6 turnovers pg, 7 rebpg 7 apg. with 2 PPG IN 4th quarter lmao

You're telling me this guy is supposed to be clutch? How about his first nba finals:2007 NBA finals. 22 ppg 35% fg, 69% ft, 6 Turnovers pg, 7 rebpg 7 apg

Myth No.4: It just shows that people are soooooo brain-washed by ESPN, that they literally can't think for themselves. Lebron never had a terrible team... nobody could have a terrible team and get 1st seed in the east. He just couldn't win in the playoffs, and came up short. He needed an easier way out, so he ran to miami with 3 other hall of famers (wade/bosh/allen) with pat riley calling the shots. He got lucky that kobe/boston big 3 got past their prime. MO williams was an all-star on his team, larry hughes was a top 10 sg in the nba, shaq/big Z were both over 7' and could rebound/score in paint/good paint D, with strong role players in gooden, varejao, boobie gibson.. Who else do you want to succeed in a weak conference, even weaker than today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/files/2013/04/kobebryant11.jpg

No disrespect to Lebron, I think he is an amazing player.. I just hate how his fans dare to compare him with Kobe, or even Michael Jordan haha and how quickly they forget how amazing was Kobe in his prime years.

bucketss
03-08-2014, 12:25 PM
i don't need stats to tell me lebron is better than kobe, sure kobe is more skilled, but than again i think kobe is more skilled than jordan, doesn't mean nothing. lol @ no consistent jump shot, someone doesn't watch lebron often :)

DaLakerz Rulz
03-08-2014, 12:34 PM
awesome thread. its good to see posters (edit: trolls) start threads about brand new topics that haven't been discussed before.

mightybosstone
03-08-2014, 12:39 PM
:horse:

(I feel like I've used that emoticon a lot lately. That doesn't speak too highly of the NBA forum.)

TimeForAHoliday
03-08-2014, 12:40 PM
I think Kobe has the better offensive skill set, but that doesn't mean he's the better player.

ATX
03-08-2014, 12:41 PM
Great thread idea! Another paranoid Kobe fan! This will go over well. Ya, let's rehash this debate again, and again, and again. Longevity and rings for Kobe, just about everything else favors James. LMAO at nowhere close to a prime Kobe. Are you serious?

Chronz
03-08-2014, 12:44 PM
Compelling post chap, gotta admit, if you're going to make this thread for the millionth time, do it big. Well done, I'll read it all later but i have to ask, are you distinguishing between having a better career or prime? And I don't recall the difference in skill being contested, but impact on the game trumps skill

tredigs
03-08-2014, 12:44 PM
I feel like this thread was created by a genius Lebron internet-marketing group.

Name a better two way player than Kobe?

Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Lebron, Jordan, Duncan, Robinson, prime KG, etc. Kill the noise, ESPN groupie.

beyourself
03-08-2014, 12:44 PM
This is coming from a LeBron hater. He is an incredible player. Better than Kobe ever was.

Just another insecure Kobe fan. Let it go.... Let it go.

Matter.
03-08-2014, 12:46 PM
Compelling post chap, gotta admit, if you're going to make this thread for the millionth time, do it big. Well done, I'll read it all later but i have to ask, are you distinguishing between having a better career or prime? And I don't recall the difference in skill being contested, but impact on the game trumps skill
He is talkig career wise ... And peak

poleandreel
03-08-2014, 12:53 PM
This might be the worst thread of all time.

Eagles4Lyfe
03-08-2014, 12:56 PM
I'm what's often referred to as a kobephile, I used to think Lebron was pathetically overrated but he's grown on me and I can't lie, he's tooo dirty when he wants to be.

Statistically, people have proven he clobbers Kobe, but skill wise like a lot of people have stated Kobe owns him, when it comes to heart, motivation, drive etc...

I buy the Lebron hype now though.

gangis2169
03-08-2014, 12:56 PM
True stats show that Lebron is a horrible shooter outside a 10 ft range. Lebron is a new age player like Wade, Harden, and Rose attack the lane flailing your arms and body to get tons of calls. It's just a new style of basketball that really has no skill just more athleticism. All the new school players are great but I don't even put any of them in the same class as Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, etc. I find it funny but when you really analyze Lebron's game it's simular to Dominique Wilkins except Lebron is a much better passer and Nique was a way better scorer but rebounds, defense, physical playing style is very similar. Obviously Lebron is better than Nique but that is the player he resembles to me not Jordan, not Kobe, not Magic, or Bird they were on another level. Now Kevin Durant? He is on that level but needs to put it together in the playoffs to win a title.



i don't need stats to tell me lebron is better than kobe, sure kobe is more skilled, but than again i think kobe is more skilled than jordan, doesn't mean nothing. lol @ no consistent jump shot, someone doesn't watch lebron often :)

Baller1
03-08-2014, 01:00 PM
He talks about Lebron not being worthy of a lot of his praise, and proceeds to bringing up Kobe's 1st team defense awards... Well done.

Baller1
03-08-2014, 01:01 PM
True stats show that Lebron is a horrible shooter outside a 10 ft range. Lebron is a new age player like Wade, Harden, and Rose attack the lane flailing your arms and body to get tons of calls. It's just a new style of basketball that really has no skill just more athleticism. All the new school players are great but I don't even put any of them in the same class as Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, etc. I find it funny but when you really analyze Lebron's game it's simular to Dominique Wilkins except Lebron is a much better passer and Nique was a way better scorer but rebounds, defense, physical playing style is very similar. Obviously Lebron is better than Nique but that is the player he resembles to me not Jordan, not Kobe, not Magic, or Bird they were on another level. Now Kevin Durant? He is on that level but needs to put it together in the playoffs to win a title.

What true stats?! :laugh2:

Sadds The Gr8
03-08-2014, 01:06 PM
Some massive Kobe homers in this thread

houstonfan
03-08-2014, 01:07 PM
This is hysterical. You are kidding yourself if you think Kobe is better than Lebron. Great thread!

Matter.
03-08-2014, 01:10 PM
Some massive Kobe homers in this thread

I only see a few, the rest are LeBron Dick riders

tredigs
03-08-2014, 01:11 PM
He talks about Lebron not being worthy of a lot of his praise, and proceeds to bringing up Kobe's 1st team defense awards... Well done.

The amount of irony in that post could cure global anemia.





... I need to get out of the ****ing lab.

sammyvine
03-08-2014, 01:11 PM
he isn't lol. Lebron is better

i prefer him as a player though when he is on form

bucketss
03-08-2014, 01:15 PM
What true stats?! :laugh2:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Htownballa1622
03-08-2014, 01:20 PM
In order to address this thread, you would have to stoop down to the level of stupidity displayed by the O.P.

Quite frankly, not worth it.

I got a good laugh though. :laugh:

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 01:25 PM
Its a toss up with LB being the better all around player due to his physical stature, and Kobe being the more skilled player.

A team filled with bums, gimme LB, he can make anyone a contender...a team with at least 1 all star, all nba type talent, gimme Kobe and he'll win a chip or take u to the Finals.

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 01:25 PM
The lack of arguments by the lebron riders is amusing haha.. The fact that he had to change teams in order to win a ring speaks for it self.

Now you’ll never be Kobe, you’re not nearly that tough.
He never ran like a girl when **** got a bit rough.
You don’t realize it now, but you can bet you’ll learn quick,
That you can’t hold the spotlight when you’re riding Wade’s d*ck.

prodigy
03-08-2014, 01:26 PM
This is so stupid. I'm a Cleveland fan so I hate lebron. But let's get real. Lebrons bigger, stronger and faster then kobe. He's a better rebounder, passer and always avg around the same points with a lot less shots. Shoots better from field and 3pt % too.

I wish people would supply real facts when they say kobe is better. All they say is Kobe has more rings. Well I guess Trent dilfer is a better QB then dan Marino...

ghettosean
03-08-2014, 01:27 PM
My goodness... Unlike some other posters who clearly didn't even read the post by the OP and just decided to post silly icons... unfortunately there is more trash/icon posters than basketball posters theae days but I must say that was quite an impressive post. Go big or go home... lol.

Well done!

I agree that Lebron did get lucky that the big 3 in Boston and Kobes Lakers got past there prime (even add San Antonio to that list) because if any of those squads were in there prime Lebron would be ringless and this debate wouldn't even exist. People can admit it or not but we all know its true.

still1ballin
03-08-2014, 01:32 PM
Colby iz ze gratest! no ?'s askd.

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 01:32 PM
This is so stupid. I'm a Cleveland fan so I hate lebron. But let's get real. Lebrons bigger, stronger and faster then kobe. He's a better rebounder, passer and always avg around the same points with a lot less shots. Shoots better from field and 3pt % too.

I wish people would supply real facts when they say kobe is better. All they say is Kobe has more rings. Well I guess Trent dilfer is a better QB then dan Marino...

Let's compare the most important stats in NBA: NBA finals stats.
Kobe bryant NBA finals Stats:
2001: 25 ppg 42%fg, 84% ft, 8 rebpg, 6 apg, 2 stealspg, 2 blocks pg
2002: 27 ppg 52% fg, 81% ft, 6 rebpg 5 apg 2 steals pg, 1 block pg
2004 (worst year, but not as bad as lebron's chokes): 23 ppg, 38% fg, 92% ft, 3rebpg, 5 apg, 2 steals pg, 1 block pg
2008: 26 ppg 41%fg, 80% ft, 5 rebpg 5 apg, 3 steals pg, 1 block pg
2009: 32 ppg, 43%fg, 84% ft, 6 rebpg, 8 apg, 2 steals pg, 2 blocks pg
2010: 29 ppg, 41%fg, 88%ft, 8 repb, 4 apg, 2 steals pg, 1 block pg

Lebron NBA finals stats:
2007 NBA finals. 22 ppg 35%? fg, 69% ft, 6 Turnovers pg, 7 rebpg 7 apg
2011 nba finals: 18 ppg, 48% fg, 60% ft, 6 turnovers pg, 7 rebpg 7 apg
2012 nba finals:29 ppg, 47%fg,83 %ft, turnovers pg, 10 rebpg, 7 astpg
2013 NBA finals: 25 ppg, 45% fg, 79% ft, 3turnovers pg, 11 rebpg, 7 astpg
NOTICE: the first 2 appearances are TERRIBLE

Kobe averages 6 rebounds per game. Kobe played with shaq/gasol/bynum which also lowers the amount of rebounds a guard gets because he doesn't go after rebounds most of the time because somebody else on his team is supposed to that assignment.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 01:32 PM
People keep bashing LB for runnin when **** got tough but act like Kobe wasnt sending threats to the Lakers front office lol

They're both *****es if u wanna be honest, had Kobe not have gotten Pau he wouldve been out of LA as soon as the oppurtunity presented itself...just saying.

mightybosstone
03-08-2014, 01:39 PM
I'm what's often referred to as a kobephile, I used to think Lebron was pathetically overrated but he's grown on me and I can't lie, he's tooo dirty when he wants to be.

Statistically, people have proven he clobbers Kobe, but skill wise like a lot of people have stated Kobe owns him, when it comes to heart, motivation, drive etc...

I buy the Lebron hype now though.

Eagles, I have no idea how you're so successful in NBA games with horrible NBA takes like this. Anyone who uses "heart," "motivation" or "drive" in their argument is basically saying "don't take this post seriously, because I have no ****ing clue what I'm talking about."

SouthSideRookie
03-08-2014, 01:39 PM
My goodness... Unlike some other posters who clearly didn't even read the post by the OP and just decided to post silly icons... unfortunately there is more trash/icon posters than basketball posters theae days but I must say that was quite an impressive post. Go big or go home... lol.

Well done!

I agree that Lebron did get lucky that the big 3 in Boston and Kobes Lakers got past there prime (even add San Antonio to that list) because if any of those squads were in there prime Lebron would be ringless and this debate wouldn't even exist. People can admit it or not but we all know its true.

If Jordan and Dream weren't past their primes Kobe and Duncan wouldn't have won multiple rings. Jordan would be owning Kobe and Dream would put Duncan in the popcorn machine like he did Shaq and D rob.

MetroMan
03-08-2014, 01:41 PM
The Hate for Lebron James is PATHETIC

Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe


G.O.A.T
1- Michael Jordan
1-A- Lebron James

tredigs
03-08-2014, 01:43 PM
The Hate for Lebron James is PATHETIC

Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe


G.O.A.T
1- Michael Jordan
1-A- Lebron James
How old are you?

MetroMan
03-08-2014, 01:44 PM
How old are you?

enlighten me. Why do you believe lebron is not better than kobe?

ghettosean
03-08-2014, 01:50 PM
My goodness... Unlike some other posters who clearly didn't even read the post by the OP and just decided to post silly icons... unfortunately there is more trash/icon posters than basketball posters theae days but I must say that was quite an impressive post. Go big or go home... lol.

Well done!

I agree that Lebron did get lucky that the big 3 in Boston and Kobes Lakers got past there prime (even add San Antonio to that list) because if any of those squads were in there prime Lebron would be ringless and this debate wouldn't even exist. People can admit it or not but we all know its true.

If Jordan and Dream weren't past their primes Kobe and Duncan wouldn't have won multiple rings. Jordan would be owning Kobe and Dream would put Duncan in the popcorn machine like he did Shaq and D rob.

You are comparing different eras... If you use your example and stay in the same era Jordan and Hakeem.... Then Hakeem would be much higher on the all time list I dare to say top 5 as i think he was probably the most skilled player ever (yes ever) it wasn't a Kareem sky hook or power offense like Shaq dude could score on you in a hundred different ways every game and could just do it all on both ends of the floor but unfortunately for him he played at the same tine as the greatest player of all time in MJ.

MetroMan
03-08-2014, 01:51 PM
for all you fans. A complete head to head list on all categories. Not including advanced stats because we all know bron kills him in it

NBA Seasons
Kobe Bryant 18 (KOBE HAS 7 YEARS ON LEBRON)
LeBron James 11

NBA Championships
Kobe Bryant 5
LeBron James 2

Playoffs Played
Kobe Bryant 15
LeBron James 8

All-Star Games
Kobe Bryant 16
LeBron James 10

Honors and Awards
Season MVP
Kobe Bryant 1
LeBron James 4

Finals MVP
Kobe Bryant 2
LeBron James 2

All-NBA First Team
Kobe Bryant 11
LeBron James 7

All-NBA Teams
(Total Selections)
Kobe Bryant 15
LeBron James 9

All-Defensive First Team
Kobe Bryant 9
LeBron James 5

All-Defensive Teams
(Total Selections)
Kobe Bryant 12
LeBron James 5

Scoring Leader
Kobe Bryant 2
LeBron James 1

Rookie of The Year
Kobe Bryant 0
LeBron James 1

NBA Regular Season Stats
Stats Per Game
Points Per Game
Kobe Bryant 25.5
LeBron James 27.5

Rebounds Per Game
Kobe Bryant 5.3
LeBron James 7.2

Assists Per Game
Kobe Bryant 4.8
LeBron James 6.9

Steals Per Game
Kobe Bryant 1.5
LeBron James 1.7

Blocks Per Game
Kobe Bryant 0.5
LeBron James 0.8

Totals Stats
Total Points
Kobe Bryant 31,700
LeBron James 22,633

Total Rebounds
Kobe Bryant 6,601
LeBron James 5,949

Total Assists
Kobe Bryant 5,925
LeBron James 5,668

Total Steals
Kobe Bryant 1,835
LeBron James 1,411

Total Blocks
Kobe Bryant 620
LeBron James 665

Total Games
Kobe Bryant 1,245
LeBron James 822

Percentages
Field Goal Percentage
Kobe Bryant .454
LeBron James .496

3-Point Percentage
Kobe Bryant .335
LeBron James .340

Free Throw Percentage
Kobe Bryant .838
LeBron James .747

NBA Playoffs Stats
Stats Per Game
Points Per Game
Kobe Bryant 25.6
LeBron James 28.1

Rebounds Per Game
Kobe Bryant 5.1
LeBron James 8.6

Assists Per Game
Kobe Bryant 4.7
LeBron James 6.7

Steals Per Game
Kobe Bryant 1.4
LeBron James 1.7

Blocks Per Game
Kobe Bryant 0.7
LeBron James 0.9

Totals Stats
Total Points
Kobe Bryant 5,640
LeBron James 3,871

Total Rebounds
Kobe Bryant 1,119
LeBron James 1,191

Total Assists
Kobe Bryant 1,040
LeBron James 924

Total Steals
Kobe Bryant 310
LeBron James 236

Total Blocks
Kobe Bryant 144
LeBron James 128

Total Games
Kobe Bryant 220
LeBron James 138

Percentages
Field Goal Percentage
Kobe Bryant .448
LeBron James .472

3-Point Percentage
Kobe Bryant .331
LeBron James .322

Free Throw Percentage
Kobe Bryant .816
LeBron James .749

nastynice
03-08-2014, 01:52 PM
The Hate for Lebron James is PATHETIC

Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe


G.O.A.T
1- Michael Jordan
1-A- Lebron James

wtf??

see, lebron is an amazing player, and I do believe we are watching greatness in front of our eyes, but posts like these is what makes people start hating on him. lol, I mean wtf?!? 30 year old player is the second best player to have ever played the sport?? Really?I started watching in the 90's meaning I know players like Jordan, the dream, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, are clearly better than Lebron is RIGHT NOW. I mean there's just no debating it, they just are.

He will make his way into that conversation one day, he is just an amazing player to watch. and since coming to miami, he's just been nothing short of an elite player and the undisputed best player in the game. He was already knocking on that door in cleveland. Just let the guy finish his career, I can't stand it when people start equating 30 year olds to the all time great legends, unless its to say I think he will END UP in that category. Because sorry, he's not there right now, he just isn't

*People have short memories I guess. It won't be long before people are going to be saying Anthony Davis is better than the goat Lebron James...

Eagles4Lyfe
03-08-2014, 01:54 PM
Eagles, I have no idea how you're so successful in NBA games with horrible NBA takes like this. Anyone who uses "heart," "motivation" or "drive" in their argument is basically saying "don't take this post seriously, because I have no ****ing clue what I'm talking about."

It's what I feel when watching both players, I just feel like Kobe's more possessed and consistent with his killer mentality whereas Lebron if he really wanted to should and can get a triple double easily every game.
Not that his taems offense isn't already lethal, but if Lebron had the drive consistently he can take over and control a game from start to finish no matter who's on him.

Also what do games and this have to do with anything?
It's not my fault your just incompetent as an E-GM.

ghettosean
03-08-2014, 01:55 PM
Metroman did you even read the OPs post before responding to this thread?

Matter.
03-08-2014, 01:55 PM
The Hate for Lebron James is PATHETIC

Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe


G.O.A.T
1- Michael Jordan
1-A- Lebron James

Who is your favorite player metro??? And not even LeBron Dick riders would say that

tredigs
03-08-2014, 01:55 PM
enlighten me. Why do you believe lebron is not better than kobe?

My post had nothing to do with Kobe, but pure shooting (both mid-range/perimeter and FT's) + vigor is where Kobe has his edge. Overall, it's not a question.

Sadds The Gr8
03-08-2014, 01:56 PM
Eagles, I have no idea how you're so successful in NBA games with horrible NBA takes like this. Anyone who uses "heart," "motivation" or "drive" in their argument is basically saying "don't take this post seriously, because I have no ****ing clue what I'm talking about."
Cuz he teams with me.

Sadds The Gr8
03-08-2014, 01:57 PM
It's not my fault your just incompetent as an E-GM.

Loooool

ghettosean
03-08-2014, 02:05 PM
The Hate for Lebron James is PATHETIC

Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe


G.O.A.T
1- Michael Jordan
1-A- Lebron James

wtf??

see, lebron is an amazing player, and I do believe we are watching greatness in front of our eyes, but posts like these is what makes people start hating on him. lol, I mean wtf?!? 30 year old player is the second best player to have ever played the sport?? Really?I started watching in the 90's meaning I know players like Jordan, the dream, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, are clearly better than Lebron is RIGHT NOW. I mean there's just no debating it, they just are.

He will make his way into that conversation one day, he is just an amazing player to watch. and since coming to miami, he's just been nothing short of an elite player and the undisputed best player in the game. He was already knocking on that door in cleveland. Just let the guy finish his career, I can't stand it when people start equating 30 year olds to the all time great legends, unless its to say I think he will END UP in that category. Because sorry, he's not there right now, he just isn't

*People have short memories I guess. It won't be long before people are going to be saying Anthony Davis is better than the goat Lebron James...

Great post here

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

LakerShow
03-08-2014, 02:07 PM
Colby iz ze gratest! no ?'s askd.

:nod:

RocketLoc80
03-08-2014, 02:08 PM
I feel like this thread was created by a genius Lebron internet-marketing group.

Name a better two way player than Kobe?

Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Lebron, Jordan, Duncan, Robinson, prime KG, etc. Kill the noise, ESPN groupie.

So this is your way of saying Kobe kills Lebron?

bucketss
03-08-2014, 02:08 PM
lets start comparing kobe and durant, the lebron ship has sailed already

bucketss
03-08-2014, 02:10 PM
So this is your way of saying Kobe kills Lebron?

in table tennis, yes.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 02:10 PM
wtf??

see, lebron is an amazing player, and I do believe we are watching greatness in front of our eyes, but posts like these is what makes people start hating on him. lol, I mean wtf?!? 30 year old player is the second best player to have ever played the sport?? Really?I started watching in the 90's meaning I know players like Jordan, the dream, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, are clearly better than Lebron is RIGHT NOW. I mean there's just no debating it, they just are.

He will make his way into that conversation one day, he is just an amazing player to watch. and since coming to miami, he's just been nothing short of an elite player and the undisputed best player in the game. He was already knocking on that door in cleveland. Just let the guy finish his career, I can't stand it when people start equating 30 year olds to the all time great legends, unless its to say I think he will END UP in that category. Because sorry, he's not there right now, he just isn't

*People have short memories I guess. It won't be long before people are going to be saying Anthony Davis is better than the goat Lebron James...

I hate that train of thought. Why, why cant a 30 year old player be better than the aforementioned players..what does age have to do with any of that, ur acting as if he's an unproven rookie goin off on potential, he's an 11 year NBA vet for crying out loud...hell, 2 more years and he wouldve played the same amount as Bird.

So in summation, where's ur proof that he hasn't already surpassed Shaq and Hakeem as a basketball player?...u have none, bcuz u cant run for stats, nor MVP's, at best u can say that Shaq has more rings but that's about it....and with as much as LB has already accomplished I dont think thats enough to give Shaq the edge.

ghettosean
03-08-2014, 02:12 PM
lets start comparing kobe and durant, the lebron ship has sailed already

Why? Durant is playing on another level this year though and will most likely beat out Lebron for MVP.

MetroMan
03-08-2014, 02:13 PM
for all you fans. A complete head to head list on all categories. Not including advanced stats because we all know bron kills him in it

NBA Seasons
Kobe Bryant 18 (KOBE HAS 7 YEARS ON LEBRON)
LeBron James 11

NBA Championships
Kobe Bryant 5
LeBron James 2

Playoffs Played
Kobe Bryant 15
LeBron James 8

All-Star Games
Kobe Bryant 16
LeBron James 10

Honors and Awards
Season MVP
Kobe Bryant 1
LeBron James 4

Finals MVP
Kobe Bryant 2
LeBron James 2

All-NBA First Team
Kobe Bryant 11
LeBron James 7

All-NBA Teams
(Total Selections)
Kobe Bryant 15
LeBron James 9

All-Defensive First Team
Kobe Bryant 9
LeBron James 5

All-Defensive Teams
(Total Selections)
Kobe Bryant 12
LeBron James 5

Scoring Leader
Kobe Bryant 2
LeBron James 1

Rookie of The Year
Kobe Bryant 0
LeBron James 1

NBA Regular Season Stats
Stats Per Game
Points Per Game
Kobe Bryant 25.5
LeBron James 27.5

Rebounds Per Game
Kobe Bryant 5.3
LeBron James 7.2

Assists Per Game
Kobe Bryant 4.8
LeBron James 6.9

Steals Per Game
Kobe Bryant 1.5
LeBron James 1.7

Blocks Per Game
Kobe Bryant 0.5
LeBron James 0.8

Totals Stats
Total Points
Kobe Bryant 31,700
LeBron James 22,633

Total Rebounds
Kobe Bryant 6,601
LeBron James 5,949

Total Assists
Kobe Bryant 5,925
LeBron James 5,668

Total Steals
Kobe Bryant 1,835
LeBron James 1,411

Total Blocks
Kobe Bryant 620
LeBron James 665

Total Games
Kobe Bryant 1,245
LeBron James 822

Percentages
Field Goal Percentage
Kobe Bryant .454
LeBron James .496

3-Point Percentage
Kobe Bryant .335
LeBron James .340

Free Throw Percentage
Kobe Bryant .838
LeBron James .747

NBA Playoffs Stats
Stats Per Game
Points Per Game
Kobe Bryant 25.6
LeBron James 28.1

Rebounds Per Game
Kobe Bryant 5.1
LeBron James 8.6

Assists Per Game
Kobe Bryant 4.7
LeBron James 6.7

Steals Per Game
Kobe Bryant 1.4
LeBron James 1.7

Blocks Per Game
Kobe Bryant 0.7
LeBron James 0.9

Totals Stats
Total Points
Kobe Bryant 5,640
LeBron James 3,871

Total Rebounds
Kobe Bryant 1,119
LeBron James 1,191

Total Assists
Kobe Bryant 1,040
LeBron James 924

Total Steals
Kobe Bryant 310
LeBron James 236

Total Blocks
Kobe Bryant 144
LeBron James 128

Total Games
Kobe Bryant 220
LeBron James 138

Percentages
Field Goal Percentage
Kobe Bryant .448
LeBron James .472

3-Point Percentage
Kobe Bryant .331
LeBron James .322

Free Throw Percentage
Kobe Bryant .816
LeBron James .749
.

Eagles4Lyfe
03-08-2014, 02:15 PM
Cuz he teams with me.
Lmaooo saddler, is that you??? Wth happened to your hilarious sigs

N those were the glory years, now mans doing pww n **** hahahahahahahahha

mightybosstone
03-08-2014, 02:21 PM
Okay, I didn't want to do this, because I've gone through these arguments a million times, but I hate reading posters who are backing the OP just because nobody is arguing his horrible takes. So let's get started.


What "statistics and facts" say Kobe isn't better than Lebron?! Basketball isn't a game stats, its a game of skill and wining.
False. All sports are a game of stats. That's why guys who score a lot of points efficiently and who prevent other players from scoring points get paid millions of dollars. To ignore stats is to be totally naive.


Name a player beside Jordan that has a better combination offensive and defensive skill?
Others have already done this, but there are a LOT of guys you could make that argument for: Jordan, Lebron, Hakeem, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq and arguably Bird and Wilt for example. It just depends on what barometers you're using. I would put Kobe's defense on par with Jordan, Lebron and Bird, but those guys can't touch the defensive impact of bigs like Hakeem, Kareem and Duncan. And offensively, he's nowhere as efficient in his peak as most of the guys I just mentioned.



5 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 81 points, 4 AMVPs, 15 All Star games, 11 NBA First team, 4th all time scorer, 37 game winners, dunk champion, 12 three pointers in one game, 35 PPG in a season. Let me know when your favorite player has accomplished that and more.
The things I've bolded, IMO, should not matter when judging a player's career resume. A single game does not make a players career and neither do dunk contests. Also, what the **** is an "AMVP," his all-time scoring numbers have more to do with longevity than peak production and 3 of his rings were as a No. 2 guy, so let's at least consider that.


And talking about skills, what skills does Lebron have? Because being a 250lb man doesn't make you skilled and talented.. That's how Lebron dominates, using his physical power to dominate in the paint, having no constant jump-shot. But that's not a talent, basketball is not bodybuilding Lebron fans.. Kobe has a better jump shot, is more clutch, has a better basketball IQ, has more rings, is more loyal, does not flop and is more determinant to succeed..
Wow..... Just wow..... I don't even know where to start. How about the fact that Lebron's court vision is absolutely superior in every possible way and he's arguably the greatest point forward in NBA history? To say he isn't skilled is so blatantly ignorant, I'm tempted to just stop arguing with you in the first place. And no consistent jump shot? Lebron has been a better 3-point shooter the last three years than any three-year stretch in Kobe's career by a wide margin. Kobe is clearly a better mid-range shooter, but who cares? The mid-range shot dying in the NBA, because it's the least efficient, least effective shot in basketball. Also, Kobe does not remotely have a better basketball IQ than Lebron and I'm not even going to address "loyalty" in this post. If you want to bring that **** up, do it in another topic.


And the ones that tell that Kobe was carried in those rings are total idiots, not only because it's not true,
Shaq's numbers COMPLETELY dwarfed Kobe in 2000, 2001 and 2002. And the only postseason where Kobe was as effective (arguably) as Shaq was in 2001, but even that's debatable. Shaq was undeniably the more important player to the Lakers and the better overall basketball player. I dare you to argue otherwise.


Also last year, Kobe and Lebron's numbers were very close, and just remember that Kobe is 35 years old and Lebron is in his prime.
Totally false. Lebron last year posted 27/8/7/2/1 with a .640 TS%, a 31.6 PER and a .322 WS/48. Those are absurd numbers that only Jordan and this year's Durant have touched among wing players. Kobe posted a 26/6/6/1 with a .570 TS%, 23.0 PER and a .174 WS/48. Those are really good numbers, but not remotely close to Lebron. At all.


Maybe Lebron is slightly better now, but he is nowhere close to a prime Kobe.
And this is the worst argument you've made so far! Prime Kobe never TOUCHED prime Lebron. In Kobe's best season ever (05-06), he posted a 28.0 PER, a .559 TS% and a .224 WS/48. He only topped a 26.0 PER two more times and .200 in WS/48 barely five more times in his career. Lebron has had a 26.0+ PER in 8 of his last 8 seasons, a .200+ WS/48 for 10 consecutive years and has hovered around a 60%+ TS% for six straight years. He's so far out of Kobe's league, it's ridiculous.


Myth No.1: Lebron has more MVPs. Kobe should have won regular season MVPs in the following years: 2001, 2003, 2005-2010. Kobe averaged at least 27 ppg, 5rebpg, 5astpg while being all nba1st team in EVERY one of those years. That includes playing on dominant/winning teams (2001, 2003,2008-2010) and played well through injury/team injury (shaq/bynum). That also includes putting up the best stats in the year (2006-2007). 36 ppg/32 ppg respectively. (while keeping 5 rebpg 5 astpg/all nba 1st team D).
It's not a myth. Lebron has more MVPs because he's been the best player in the entire league for the better part of a decade. I would argue that Kobe was never ONCE the unquestionable best player in the league ever at any point in his career. He never once posted a top 3 WS or Ws/48 in a season in his entire career and only once was top 3 in PER (05-06). I would argue that not only did Kobe not deserve more MVPs, but the MVP they gave him wasn't deserved! That should have gone to Paul or KG that season, but they gave it to Kobe since there wasn't a clear-cut No. 1. Kobe's best case for MVP was in 05-06, and I don't even think that was an obvious case.


Myth No.2: Lebron is the Chosen-One. LeBron was destined "the chosen one" but won NOTHING when he was on the Cavs. He was self-proclaimed "King" and his slogan "Witness" was given to him WITHOUT WINNING. He should've been called Ringless when he was on the cavs because he brought nothing to back to Cleveland. He couldn't win any championships, so he ran to Miami where 3 (Yes, three) hall of famers were waiting for him (Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen) with a hall of fame Architect in Pat Riley. Jordan never had more than 1 all-star on his team in a single year, while Kobe had two all-stars only once (if you count bynum an all-star lol). Lebron has had at-least 2 all-stars on his team for 4 straight years.
This is just blatant naivety. So it's okay to criticize Lebron for joining a team with two top 15 guys, but not okay to criticize Kobe for lucking out and playing with another all-time top 10 player or playing with great rosters in the last 2000s? That's total ********. Kobe's supporting cast over his career completely dwarfs Lebron's supporting casts. He played his ENTIRE career in Cleveland without a single reliable No. 2. That's inexcusable.


Myth No.3: Lebron James is clutch. Lebron james 2011 NBA finals: 2011 nba finals: 18 ppg, 48% fg, 60% ft, 6 turnovers pg, 7 rebpg 7 apg. with 2 PPG IN 4th quarter lmao

You're telling me this guy is supposed to be clutch? How about his first nba finals:2007 NBA finals. 22 ppg 35% fg, 69% ft, 6 Turnovers pg, 7 rebpg 7 apg
Look at his numbers in the postseason and the Finals the last two years. Look at games 6 and 7 last year against the Spurs. If you don't think the guy is clutch, it's because you're focusing solely on a couple of bad performances while totally ignoring the incredible things he's accomplished. Anyone can look at a player's low points in the postseason and say "Look how unclutch this guy is!" Hell, Kobe went ****ing 6-24 in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals, but I don't see you bringing that up.


Myth No.4: It just shows that people are soooooo brain-washed by ESPN, that they literally can't think for themselves. Lebron never had a terrible team... nobody could have a terrible team and get 1st seed in the east. He just couldn't win in the playoffs, and came up short. He needed an easier way out, so he ran to miami with 3 other hall of famers (wade/bosh/allen) with pat riley calling the shots. He got lucky that kobe/boston big 3 got past their prime. MO williams was an all-star on his team, larry hughes was a top 10 sg in the nba, shaq/big Z were both over 7' and could rebound/score in paint/good paint D, with strong role players in gooden, varejao, boobie gibson.. Who else do you want to succeed in a weak conference, even weaker than today.
Lol.... How is this a myth? And your argument here is piss poor. You claim no one can think for themselves, but you've essentially just used the same lame arguments every other Kobephile on this site uses without any context whatsoever. You then go on to claim he couldn't win the playoffs and that he never had a terrible team in Cleveland. Are you ****ing kidding me? The man's best second options in Cleveland were ****ing Ilgauskas and Mo Williams!!!! There's literally zero chance that Jordan or Kobe would have won titles with those steaming piss of **** teams Lebron had. Your argument is so bad, you had to use a WAY past his prime Shaq and Boobie ****ing Gibson for your argument!!!!

Seriously, pull your head out of your *** and actually look at what you're saying. The best guy he ever had was a 1-time All-Star!!!!! How pathetic is that? Kobe played with Shaquille ****ing O'Neal and Pau ****ing Gasol at their peaks! Those guys are first ballot Hall of Famers!


No disrespect to Lebron, I think he is an amazing player.. I just hate how his fans dare to compare him with Kobe, or even Michael Jordan haha and how quickly they forget how amazing was Kobe in his prime years.
No disrespect to Kobe, but I'm getting sick and tired of people using piss poor arguments, a lack of knowledge about basic statistics, ringz and a completely misconstrued version of the history to portray Kobe as a superior player to Lebron. James is a better basketball player, period. And if you asked anyone in the know in the league whether they'd have a prime Lebron James or a prime Kobe Bryant, you would absolutely get more Lebron responses than Kobe.

mightybosstone
03-08-2014, 02:26 PM
It's what I feel when watching both players, I just feel like Kobe's more possessed and consistent with his killer mentality whereas Lebron if he really wanted to should and can get a triple double easily every game. Not that his taems offense isn't already lethal, but if Lebron had the drive consistently he can take over and control a game from start to finish no matter who's on him.
What? So you're faulting Lebron because you inaccurately understand how his game works and think he could accomplish more? How does that make sense?


Also what do games and this have to do with anything?
It's not my fault your just incompetent as an E-GM.
Wow.... And now you take it too far. I was clearly joking, and then you make **** personal. Also, sorry if I have a hard time taking seriously anyone who doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're". Way to be a douche, Eagles. :pity:

Sadds The Gr8
03-08-2014, 02:28 PM
Lmaooo saddler, is that you??? Wth happened to your hilarious sigs

N those were the glory years, now mans doing pww n **** hahahahahahahahha
I took sigs off cuz they're so laggy on my pc so I barely change mine. I think I still have the Ross one? You're the one that went ghost brah

Lol I RUN PWW!!!!!

nastynice
03-08-2014, 02:32 PM
I hate that train of thought. Why, why cant a 30 year old player be better than the aforementioned players..what does age have to do with any of that, ur acting as if he's an unproven rookie goin off on potential, he's an 11 year NBA vet for crying out loud...hell, 2 more years and he wouldve played the same amount as Bird.

So in summation, where's ur proof that he hasn't already surpassed Shaq and Hakeem as a basketball player?...u have none, bcuz u cant run for stats, nor MVP's, at best u can say that Shaq has more rings but that's about it....and with as much as LB has already accomplished I dont think thats enough to give Shaq the edge.

You just can't accomplish as much in that time frame. He's had what, 4 very good post season runs, maybe 2 elite. He didn't even develop a jump shot until about 3 years ago. His only post season success has come with a team that has 2 of the top 3 and 3 of the top 10 players in the game at the time they came together. His only post season success has come when he had an absolute cake walk to the finals (minus the celtics). There's a lot of things to see here. How is he going to age? His shot is nice, but as he loses some athleticism and driving ability, will he be able to make those shots with a hand in his face? There's just so much left to it, its hard to compare a 30 year old to these guys. If I were to jump on board with your line of thinking, then I would argue Bo Jackson to be the greatest running back to have ever played football.

Eagles4Lyfe
03-08-2014, 02:44 PM
What? So you're faulting Lebron because you inaccurately understand how his game works and think he could accomplish more? How does that make sense?


Wow.... And now you take it too far. I was clearly joking, and then you make **** personal. Also, sorry if I have a hard time taking seriously anyone who doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're". Way to be a douche, Eagles. :pity:
Onviously I was playing lmao I said e-Gm cmon man..

Hows your wedding plans btw hommie??

I know its a team game but isn't the point of an MVP and being a top 10 legend consistently performing at peak level game in and game out, while making no names into known names.

Kobe never takes games of, sure he has dud games but his compete level is the same throughout.

If im unaware then teach me bro, what am I unaware of towards Lebrons game?




I took sigs off cuz they're so laggy on my pc so I barely change mine. I think I still have the Ross one? You're the one that went ghost brah

Lol I RUN PWW!!!!!

Dawg PSD sucksss on my tab, look at all my grammatical errors yo hahha..

N i cant seeba sig for you, n wth is pwww...

Also yo Uruguay all day errday, Edison Cavani babyyyy..

N I want Michigan to win but take futures on Cinci, Virginia and Iowa State

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 02:46 PM
Myth No5: Lebron James is more effiecent than Kobe in clutch time and in general. Kobe actually has the most game-winning/tying shots of all time. You saying he's not clutch because he takes a lot of shots is wrong because: he actually has the ability to take shots in the last seconds, which requires mental and physical toughness (lebron for one couldn't do), and takes insane shots with few seconds left because he's the only person on the court that can take such an extreme shot. The fact remains: most game-wining/tying shots of all time. Also Lebron is effiecent cause the only think he can do is fast-break dunks and lay-ups, he is not even top 40 on 3-point %.. Bringing up effiecency is like saying Howard is better than Kobe because he has a better FG% haha.. And how on earth Lebron is a good shooter, when his defenders DARE him to shot? I would like to see them doing that against Kobe.

Myth No.6: Shaq carried Kobe to his rings.. Taking a closer look at the stats of Shaq and Kobe and compare their numbers to each other and compare them to other greats you will see this was a PARTNERSHIP. These Lakers won three championships and I would agree that the first title in 2000 Shaq who was the league MVP, a veteran in the middle of his prime did the heavy lifting that season so if you want to characterize any of the three titles as “Shaq’s” this is the one.

Playoff numbers (Shaq, Kobe) 2000-01

Shaq 30.4 ppg 15.4 reb 3.2 ast

Kobe 29.4 ppg 7.3 reb 6.1 ast

Playoff numbers (Shaq, Kobe) 2001-02

Shaq 28.5 ppg 12.6 reb 2.8 ast
Kobe 26.6 ppg 5.8 reb 4.6 ast

The point of this statistical analysis is to prove how foolish it is to claim Kobe was carried by Shaq to his three rings. And let's not forget that Kobe later won 2 more rings without Shaq, with Shaq winning only one.. It is more foolish when Lebron fanboys bring that argument up, when Lebron proved that he couldn't get the job done in Cleveland, he had 7 long years to bring a title there and he chocked again and again.. He had to join Wade-Bosh-Allen in order to win, something any superstar would do if he had such a supporting cast.

Chronz
03-08-2014, 02:48 PM
He talks about Lebron not being worthy of a lot of his praise, and proceeds to bringing up Kobe's 1st team defense awards... Well done.
But at least he's not comparing Bron to Nique defensively

c.c.
03-08-2014, 02:52 PM
I'm not a Kobe or a Lebron fan but I will take LBJ any day over Kobe.

AllDay28
03-08-2014, 03:00 PM
Here's the end to this thread . Laker and Kobe fans will say Kobe , every other nba fan and non homers will say lebron

Kaner
03-08-2014, 03:07 PM
Kobe's entire argument for being the better player at this point is ringzzzzz

Myth1: This isn't a myth

Myth 2: If winning with 3 future h.o.f(Allen, Wade, Bosh) can be used against Lebron, what does that mean when you LOSE with 3 (Shaq, Malone, Payton).

Myth3: The myth really is that Kobe's the king of clutch
Facts that show Kobe isn't super clutch
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time
Facts that show Lebron is
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again

Assuming you wont read those articles and just dismiss them the key points are

-Lebron has the most go ahead baskets in the last 24 seconds of a playoff game since coming into the league
He has made 2 more baskets on 1 less attemt then Kobe in that time span.

-Lebron has the best FG Pct on go ahead fg in the Final 24 Secs. of 4th Qtr/OT, in the past 10 postseasons

-Kobe's shooting is 2% above the league average in the clutch and the Lakers offense is significantly worse in the last 24 seconds of the game

Myth4: Also not a myth but Lets not pretend like Kobe never wanted to leave for more talent he asked to be traded from a Lakers team that had very comparable talent to Lebrons cavs with Lamar Odom (who was better then anyone Lebron played with on the cavs) and Andrew Bynum who was still a talented prospect at the time. Lebron played out his contract and then left for greener pastures Kobe would have done the same thing in his situation.

beyourself
03-08-2014, 03:15 PM
Kobe has more ringzzzz though

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 03:19 PM
2005: kobe had the worst talent around him in the entire NBA. smush parker/chris mihm/no phil jackson. Kobe had 30 ppg 6 astpg 6 rebpg
2006: Kobe made the playoffs while averaging nearly 36 ppg 5 rebpg 5 astpg 1st all NBA D, while nash had 19 ppg 11ast (not outrageous) on a pure offensive team. His defense was TERRIBLE, which is half the game.
2007: Not the best player? he averaged 32 ppg 6rebpg 5 astpg, 1st team all-nba D. Everybody in the NBA said kobe was the best player, that includes your boyfriend Lebron. (they also made the playoffs, and yes, that supporting cast was complete trash. George, kwame brown, smush parker. smh it's embarassing). And you compare a betrayal to his home-state, to his fans who later on burned his shirts, to a demand to a trade that never happened in 18 freaking years? You have to thank Wade, Bosh and Allen for the flopper's rings because he would never win alone. Also Kobe had to go against Iverson, Nash, Duncan, Chris Paul, Durant, Yao Ming, McGrady, Durant in a very hard conference in all of his career.. Who did Lebron had to beat, the bucks and the atlanta hawks? haha

Sadds The Gr8
03-08-2014, 03:20 PM
Onviously I was playing lmao I said e-Gm cmon man..

Hows your wedding plans btw hommie??

I know its a team game but isn't the point of an MVP and being a top 10 legend consistently performing at peak level game in and game out, while making no names into known names.

Kobe never takes games of, sure he has dud games but his compete level is the same throughout.

If im unaware then teach me bro, what am I unaware of towards Lebrons game?





Dawg PSD sucksss on my tab, look at all my grammatical errors yo hahha..

N i cant seeba sig for you, n wth is pwww...

Also yo Uruguay all day errday, Edison Cavani babyyyy..

N I want Michigan to win but take futures on Cinci, Virginia and Iowa State

Yea I also suck *** at typing on my phone. I have to fix **** all the Damn time so annoying on this touch screen bs.

Pww is jokes lol I love talking **** to ppl. It's pretty fun I wish I joined it before

Cavani is rude but I don't think they win wc. Brazil is gonna win imo but the odds would suck I'm assuming. I'd take France or Italy if they have good odds.

I'd take Louisville on futures. I know it's chalk but still....

Bostonjorge
03-08-2014, 03:25 PM
Lebron did what any big time player can do and win with the most talent on your team and a former MVP. No team in today's NBA has that on their team but Miami so how can any player lose with those odds.

Also can't think of any great player who can lose when u have the 3rd best player in the whole NBA, a top 10 player and good role players all around u. Yet lebron did lose with odds once already. James lost when wade and bosh were at their best. Can't think of any great that could lose with these odds even if they tired to.

AllDay28
03-08-2014, 03:29 PM
I would've loved to see Kobe on that cavs team lebron was on . No way ever would he had taken them to the finals

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 03:31 PM
You just can't accomplish as much in that time frame. He's had what, 4 very good post season runs, maybe 2 elite. He didn't even develop a jump shot until about 3 years ago. His only post season success has come with a team that has 2 of the top 3 and 3 of the top 10 players in the game at the time they came together. His only post season success has come when he had an absolute cake walk to the finals (minus the celtics). There's a lot of things to see here. How is he going to age? His shot is nice, but as he loses some athleticism and driving ability, will he be able to make those shots with a hand in his face? There's just so much left to it, its hard to compare a 30 year old to these guys. If I were to jump on board with your line of thinking, then I would argue Bo Jackson to be the greatest running back to have ever played football.

Thats irrelevant bcuz he didnt win anything that 1st year playing alongside a top 3 and top 10 player, the years he did win he didnt have a top 3 player alongside him, nor a top 10 player (u might could argue Wade was top 10 in 2012).

As for the rest of your post its nothing more than YOUR opinion, but I dont want your opinion I want facts and stats proving that Shaq and Hakeem are better than him...Hakeem doesnt stack up in anyway, and Shaq has 2 more rings than he does with the same amount of finals losses.

Truth be told the general consensus is that he's already surpassed them, thats why everybody asks "do you think he can be better than MJ"...not Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq etc, because subconsciously he's already thought to be better than them by most...just saying.

sammyvine
03-08-2014, 03:34 PM
What? So you're faulting Lebron because you inaccurately understand how his game works and think he could accomplish more? How does that make sense?


Wow.... And now you take it too far. I was clearly joking, and then you make **** personal. Also, sorry if I have a hard time taking seriously anyone who doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're". Way to be a douche, Eagles. :pity:

what player do you prefer?

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 03:38 PM
There are so many defining factors to comparing players and who was better ect ect. The game has changed a lot and so has the players. The game continues to change as so will the players. I for one don't like where the game has gone. Im not a fan of all the floppers, technical fouls for good hard fouls, technical fouls for anything the refs feel is complaining, the league going into small ball where the best center in the game is really a PF. The inability to play defense on someone, to body them up, to poke, to hand check. Now talking about a 4 pt line lol its all about entertainment and offense/small ball.

So how do you compare 2 players that are completely different really!? One is 6'6 210 and plays SG, a position that is called SG because they were typically the best offense player on the teams, who, yes, did a lot of shooting lol This player played most the beginning of his career in a much more talented NBA, much more defense and mean ball. This player went through a ERA as the 2nd man on the team with Shaq and had lots of success to another era where he was the man with a completely different roster of players and had more success. That is very hard to do. Most players get their rings with the same supporting cast for most part while this guy went from two completely different rosters. This man stayed in one city and did not call all-stars to team up with him in a summer and tell the world on a 1 hour ring count ceremony. This man trusted his front office to get him someone else besides Kwame Brown and Smush Parker lol His front office pulled at the time a robbery and got Gasol for Kwame and Gasols brother who turned out to be a great player making the trade now seem not so one-sided. This man as you have already read has a handful of rings, to many accolades to count including the greatest game ever recorded by a NBA player.

The other guy is 6'9 270 pounds and plays point forward or SF. He was the NEXT Jordan after the hated Kobe which makes him loved already. He is a past first at heart player that is to big for a SF and to fast for a PF. He is a bulldozer when he puts his head down. This player is going to get most his points around the rim and have assists and rebounds due to being a lot bigger and around rim more, he is a freak athlete. He played 8 years in Cleveland where he went to Finals once and was embarrassed. So he talks to Wade and Bosh and get them to agree to take same amount of money 20 mil each to join together. With 3 superstars joined they convinced other good talent to join them for cheap AKA Ray Allen. Maybe the best roster 1-12 ever assembled? They go on to win 2 rings in 3 attempts so far. But as we all know the last one was more of the Spurs pulling the biggest choke job in a game 6 ever.

So again i ask you.....how do you really compare these players? Different styles of play, different position, different body type. For me personally Kobe was more fun to watch. He was a killer. His legendary games and fights. Nothing was more fun than the era of Iverson, Shaq, Wallace, KObe, Vince, TMac, Nash, Kidd, could go on and on with the older declining legends like Pippen and Jordan, Malone ect ect The Battles with Kings and Blazers were epic, the Lakers and Celtics! Kobe is the more dangerous player and when you needed a stop he was guy you put on best player defensively. Lebron while no doubt a great player in a watered down league in a conference so bad you can get to playoffs with 20 wins is the "KING" of this era. He is the better all-around player because he is bigger and gets more rebounds, has better FG% cause he gets most points at rim and is pass first player.

James in gonna get all the Love because he is the NBA's god child. People and the media love him. I never seen so much love for a player. All you can do is go off what you have seen. Im old enough to have watched so many generations of ball that you can see the huge decline in talent and the huge change in play. I preferred to watch Jordan and Kobe style of play over Magic and Lebron but id take Magic over Lebron anyday because Magic went up against better players and a mans league still. No knock on Lebron cause he is the best overall player in the world right now and its not really close. The game style and way its called is not his fault. Give me Kobe if your gonna make me compare to players that shouldnt be compared.

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 03:39 PM
I would've loved to see Kobe on that cavs team lebron was on . No way ever would he had taken them to the finals

I would love to see Lebron competing in the West.

Larry Hughes, Shaquille O'neal, Big Z, Mo Williams, in a weak-*** conference... Tell me ONE good team Lebron had to beat in order to reach the Finals? That's right, NONE.. The only time he faced a good team was on the Finals, and he got swept easily by the Spurs.. The same Orlando team that kicked Lebron's *** was almost swept by Kobe on the finals as well.. Gasol Bynum was always injured most of the season and the rest of the team were role players who played well with kobe carrying the team the whole year.. Yet people still over look greatness and say Lebron is a better player cause he is dominating in a conference that sucks a lot.

tredigs
03-08-2014, 03:40 PM
I would love to see Lebron competing in the West.

Larry Hughes, Shaquille O'neal, Big Z, Mo Williams, in a weak-*** conference... Tell me ONE good team Lebron had to beat in order to reach the Finals? That's right, NONE.. The only time he faced a good team was on the Finals, and he got swept easily by the Spurs.. The same Orlando team that kicked Lebron's *** was almost swept by Kobe on the finals as well.. Gasol Bynum was always injured most of the season and the rest of the team were role players who played well with kobe carrying the team the whole year.. Yet people still over look greatness and say Lebron is a better player cause he is dominating in a conference that sucks a lot.

See: I'm 15.

DaLakerz Rulz
03-08-2014, 03:42 PM
Colby iz ze gratest! no ?'s askd.

this is perhaps the most accurate statement in this god awful thread

Avenged
03-08-2014, 03:47 PM
The fact that people are typing essays in this thread.. :pity: let it die.

mightybosstone
03-08-2014, 03:59 PM
Onviously I was playing lmao I said e-Gm cmon man..
I figured as much, but just in case I let my Lebron rage roll flow into that comment a bit.


Hows your wedding plans btw hommie??
Meh... Not so bad. We've set a date (next January) and a place, but we still have so much stuff left to do. Her mother is paying for most of it, so at least that eases the stress a bit.


I know its a team game but isn't the point of an MVP and being a top 10 legend consistently performing at peak level game in and game out, while making no names into known names.

Kobe never takes games of, sure he has dud games but his compete level is the same throughout.
That's exactly what Lebron has done. In fact, I would gladly argue that Lebron does a better job of making players around him better than Kobe does. His teammates actually like playing for him and he goes out of his way to get them open looks. I don't know that I would say the same thing for Kobe, even in his prime. And I think Lebron has performed at just a consistent a level as Kobe has in his prime. The main difference is that Lebron's plateau is just far higher than Kobe's.


If im unaware then teach me bro, what am I unaware of towards Lebrons game?
It's not anything you've said about his game, it's the general things you're saying about Kobe that you're claiming don't apply to Lebron. You can't be an international superstar and the best player in the world without showing a ton of heart, grit and determination. The most talented athlete in the world still has to work at it, and Lebron has proved season after season that there are things he can improve. He didn't have a post game, so he went out and created one of the most dangerous ones in the league. He wasn't a consistent perimeter threat, so he fine-tuned his jumper and became a dangerous 3-point shooter.

And the idea that Lebron doesn't have a killer mentality which prevents him from being clutch is just bogus. Look at Game 7 last year. Look at that Game 6 against Boston a couple of years ago. I'll admit that I didn't see that edge in his game 5-10 years ago, but he most definitely has it now. Also, the whole "Lebron isn't clutch and Kobe is" thing just statistically is not true. I've read a ton of articles that disproved that myth. Hell, here's a good one that was the first thing that came up when I googled it:

http://swishnba.com/2013/10/11/kobe-vs-lebron-whos-more-clutch/

The fact is that people too often use adjectives to back Kobe over Lebron, but they rarely have facts or numbers to back up their arguments. They claim Kobe has some kind of killer instinct that Lebron doesn't possess, but even if that's the case it certainly doesn't make him more clutch.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 04:03 PM
Here's the end to this thread . Laker and Kobe fans will say Kobe , every other nba fan and non homers will say lebron

^ End of discussion.

prodigy
03-08-2014, 04:06 PM
How old are you?

enlighten me. Why do you believe lebron is not better than kobe?

Kobe has more rings.. lol that's all Kobe supports can say. Its sad really. I love Kobe he's a great hof player. But let's be real.

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 04:09 PM
Kobe's entire argument for being the better player at this point is ringzzzzz

Myth1: This isn't a myth

Myth 2: If winning with 3 future h.o.f(Allen, Wade, Bosh) can be used against Lebron, what does that mean when you LOSE with 3 (Shaq, Malone, Payton).

Myth3: The myth really is that Kobe's the king of clutch
Facts that show Kobe isn't super clutch
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time
Facts that show Lebron is
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again

Assuming you wont read those articles and just dismiss them the key points are

-Lebron has the most go ahead baskets in the last 24 seconds of a playoff game since coming into the league
He has made 2 more baskets on 1 less attemt then Kobe in that time span.

-Lebron has the best FG Pct on go ahead fg in the Final 24 Secs. of 4th Qtr/OT, in the past 10 postseasons

-Kobe's shooting is 2% above the league average in the clutch and the Lakers offense is significantly worse in the last 24 seconds of the game

Myth4: Also not a myth but Lets not pretend like Kobe never wanted to leave for more talent he asked to be traded from a Lakers team that had very comparable talent to Lebrons cavs with Lamar Odom (who was better then anyone Lebron played with on the cavs) and Andrew Bynum who was still a talented prospect at the time. Lebron played out his contract and then left for greener pastures Kobe would have done the same thing in his situation.

Malone didnt play in Finals, he was hurt and also they both (Malone and Payton) were like Kobe today....way past their primes when they joined LA.

Saying Kobe had better talent than Lebrons Cavs is absurd! Kwame, Smush, Odom, Walton, Cook, Mckie, Evans, Radmonivich, and Bynum was in his 2nd year in NBA averaging 7 and 5 lol Lebron had Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison, West, LLgaustus, Varejao, Gibson, JJ Hickson lmao hmmmmm looks like a damn good team to me

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 04:12 PM
Kobe has much better intangibles such as mental toughness, intensity, and leadership. Kobe excels in every one of those categories.

LeBron is not clutch. I have proven, over and over again. He choked in 2 NBA finals, has less game-winning shots, and has a bad fg% in clutch shots, while not taking many shots. He literally is the opposite of clutch. He is actually more prone to choke rather than be clutch. 

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 04:13 PM
It's not even a discussion

Bron is significantly better than Kobe.

More rings for Kobe because of playing with multiple hall of famers doesn't make him better than Bron (and whose to say Bron won't end up with more rings any way).

It's a silly debate, and no contest. Bron has already produced almost as much value as Kobe, despite playing 13,000 less minutes.

Advanced metrics show Bron to be much better too.

nickdymez
03-08-2014, 04:15 PM
The amount of irony in that post could cure global anemia.





... I need to get out of the ****ing lab.

This thread is dumb. But are you saying that Kobe wasn't an elite defender?

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 04:18 PM
Anyone 30 years and older and who has seen when the NBA was a Mans game and watched Kobe when he was averaging 37 a game knows and agrees with Jordan and that Kobe is only person comparable to the greatest ever. This league is so watered down and has no talent. Put Prime Kobe in this league today and LMAO

mightybosstone
03-08-2014, 04:20 PM
Myth No5: Lebron James is more effiecent than Kobe in clutch time and in general. Kobe actually has the most game-winning/tying shots of all time. You saying he's not clutch because he takes a lot of shots is wrong because: he actually has the ability to take shots in the last seconds, which requires mental and physical toughness (lebron for one couldn't do), and takes insane shots with few seconds left because he's the only person on the court that can take such an extreme shot. The fact remains: most game-wining/tying shots of all time.
http://swishnba.com/2013/10/11/kobe-vs-lebron-whos-more-clutch/

I'm sorry... Who's more clutch?


Also Lebron is effiecent cause the only think he can do is fast-break dunks and lay-ups, he is not even top 40 on 3-point %.. Bringing up effiecency is like saying Howard is better than Kobe because he has a better FG% haha.. And how on earth Lebron is a good shooter, when his defenders DARE him to shot? I would like to see them doing that against Kobe.
You realize that Kobe Bryant is historically a mediocre 3-point shooter, right? It seems ridiculous to criticize Lebron for his 3-point shooting when his 3-point shooting numbers are superior, especially the last few seasons. By the time the two of them retire, Lebron will probably have a 20-30% edge on Kobe in 3-point shooting.

Myth No.6: Shaq carried Kobe to his rings.. Taking a closer look at the stats of Shaq and Kobe and compare their numbers to each other and compare them to other greats you will see this was a PARTNERSHIP. These Lakers won three championships and I would agree that the first title in 2000 Shaq who was the league MVP, a veteran in the middle of his prime did the heavy lifting that season so if you want to characterize any of the three titles as “Shaq’s” this is the one.
Let's play a little hypothetical game. Take Kobe away from those early Lakers teams replace him with a worse SG of the same era, someone like Ray Allen or Vince Carter. Do those teams still win titles? Most definitely. In fact, they might have won more titles together, because they would have gotten along and the Lakers wouldn't have had to trade Shaq to please Kobe.

On the flip side, let's replace Shaq with a lesser center of the same era, like maybe Jermaine O'Neal. Do those Lakers teams still win titles? Maybe, but they certainly wouldn't have won that first one, where Kobe was clearly not the player he would later become. And I honestly don't think they win more than one, if they could have even pulled that off.

Shaq and Duncan were simply the two most dominant players in the game during that time period, and Kobe just happened to luck out and become Shaq's sidekick. You could argue Kobe's 2001 playoff numbers were better than Shaq, but Shaq was undeniably the better basketball player when both guys were in Lakers' uniforms, and he was unquestionably better than Kobe.

To me, qualifying Kobe's first three titles is no different than qualifying Wade's last two titles or Pippen's six rings or the rings of guys like McHale, Worthy, Gasol or early Havlicek. There's no shame in being a great No. 2 that wins rings, but it's not exactly the same as winning one as a No. 1. I don't judge Wade's first ring the same as I judge his last two or Havlicek's early rings like I judge his later rings when he took over that Celtics teams. Why should I treat Kobe any differently?

prodigy
03-08-2014, 04:20 PM
MJ has that killer instinct that nobody has come close to. But one on one lebron wins. 6"9 260 stronger, prob faster or just as fast. I mean lebron can back Jordan down, drive threw him shoot over him. Jordan's not backing lebron down lol, and it would be tough to drive past him. Sure he can shoot over Bron but at 6"9 lebron can contest them while staying back watching for the drive.

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 04:23 PM
This thread is dumb. But are you saying that Kobe wasn't an elite defender?

Dude everyone is such Lebron fluffers its ridicoulus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8GMtv9iIR8

^ Enough Said! Kobe way past Prime vs PRIME Lebron. Both were going after eachother HARD after MJ's comments

Goose17
03-08-2014, 04:24 PM
Dude everyone is such Lebron fluffers its ridicoulus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8GMtv9iIR8

^ Enough Said! Kobe way past Prime vs PRIME Lebron. Both were going after eachother HARD after MJ's comments

LOL... all star game.

Matter.
03-08-2014, 04:28 PM
It's not even a discussion

Bron is significantly better than Kobe.

More rings for Kobe because of playing with multiple hall of famers doesn't make him better than Bron (and whose to say Bron won't end up with more rings any way).

It's a silly debate, and no contest. Bron has already produced almost as much value as Kobe, despite playing 13,000 less minutes.

Advanced metrics show Bron to be much better too.

That's like saying Kobe basically rode shaqs coattail, which is wrong, and that he did nothing, and isn't Bron playing with Wade (HoF) Allen (HOF) Bosh (Possible HOF)...

Matter.
03-08-2014, 04:30 PM
Dude everyone is such Lebron fluffers its ridicoulus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8GMtv9iIR8

^ Enough Said! Kobe way past Prime vs PRIME Lebron. Both were going after eachother HARD after MJ's comments

LOL... all star game.

You know well if Kobe wants to defend he will actually defend and be a great defensive player so stop saying like he never defends

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 04:30 PM
LOL... all star game.

Did you not watch that game? It was a one on one between eachother, whether its on a court, back yard, all-star game they were going after eachother. Both talking trash. MJ said before the game Kobe is only one comparable to himself. Again thats OLD Kobe vs Prime Lebron getting smashed on one on one

Goose17
03-08-2014, 04:32 PM
That's like saying Kobe basically rode shaqs coattail, which is wrong, and that he did nothing, and isn't Bron playing with Wade (HoF) Allen (HOF) Bosh (Possible HOF)...

TBF, Allen is well past his prime. And Wade is past his prime now as well, still high caliber, but on his way down.

And nobody wins a chip on their own.


Besides,

Shaq > Wade
Prime Gasol > Prime Bosh

Odom wasn't exactly a scrub either.


Like I say, nobody wins on their own. Rings aren't an argument worth having, championships are a reflection of good teams and good coaching, they do not reflect individual talent.

Matter.
03-08-2014, 04:33 PM
That's like saying Kobe basically rode shaqs coattail, which is wrong, and that he did nothing, and isn't Bron playing with Wade (HoF) Allen (HOF) Bosh (Possible HOF)...

TBF, Allen is well past his prime. And Wade is past his prime now as well, still high caliber, but on his way down.

And nobody wins a chip on their own.


Besides,

Shaq > Wade
Prime Gasol > Prime Bosh

Odom wasn't exactly a scrub either.


Like I say, nobody wins on their own. Rings aren't an argument worth having, championships are a reflection of good teams and good coaching, they do not reflect individual talent.

Yeah I know but him saying its not a debate is idiotic...

Goose17
03-08-2014, 04:34 PM
Did you not watch that game? It was a one on one between eachother, whether its on a court, back yard, all-star game they were going after eachother. Both talking trash. MJ said before the game Kobe is only one comparable to himself. Again thats OLD Kobe vs Prime Lebron getting smashed on one on one

It's ONE game, and at that, it's an exhibition game.

I remember Kobe going for Lebron, but I don't remember Lebron retaliating, I remember him seeming uninterested.

Regardless, it's an exhibition game and even if it wasn't, it's only one game, it proves nothing.


I'm saddened that Kobe is pretty much done. We'll never get a Lebron v Kobe final. Something I've always wanted to see.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 04:34 PM
Funny how old stuck in the past posters will quickly say LB is better, and has surpassed Kobe's all time rank...but u ask these same people if he passed Magic and Bird they'll laugh at you and say he hasn't played long enough to pass them not realizing that Kobe has played a good 4 to 5 more years than both Magic and Bird lol... and yet they rank him above Kobe, the same Kobe that by Magic Johnson's own admission is the greatest Laker of all time, even better than himself. So basically LB > Kobe > Magic > Bird....just saying.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 04:35 PM
Yeah I know but him saying its not a debate is idiotic...

True, there's a debate to be had. But there is never going to be a clear answer. Like the other guy said, Kobe fans, Lebron haters and Lakers fans will pick Kobe, everyone else will pick Lebron. It's just going back and forth for nothing.

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 04:37 PM
It's ONE game, and at that, it's an exhibition game.

I remember Kobe going for Lebron, but I don't remember Lebron retaliating, I remember him seeming uninterested.

Regardless, it's an exhibition game and even if it wasn't, it's only one game, it proves nothing.


I'm saddened that Kobe is pretty much done. We'll never get a Lebron v Kobe final. Something I've always wanted to see.

LMAO you might want to go watch the crap talk between eachother. Lebron actually changed his game style and became aggressive because Kobe started playing defense on him. Might be one game but once again 34 year old Kobe on prime Lebron embarrassing him. Prime Kobe defensively was a shut down clinic

Goose17
03-08-2014, 04:37 PM
the same Kobe that by Magic Johnson's own admission is the greatest Laker of all time, even better than himself. So basically LB > Kobe > Magic > Bird....just saying.

Johnson was just being nice. What's he going to say? "I'm the greatest Laker of all time, Kobe is nothing compared to me!" ...come on now, he's just playing nice.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 04:38 PM
LMAO you might want to go watch the crap talk between eachother. Lebron actually changed his game style and became aggressive because Kobe started playing defense on him. Might be one game but once again 34 year old Kobe on prime Lebron embarrassing him. Prime Kobe defensively was a shut down clinic

lol, okay buddy, whatever you say.

One exhibition game proves nothing. It certainly doesn't prove whether or not a guy was a lock down defender 7-8 years prior to said exhibition game, your argument is terribly weak. Surely you can do better than that?

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 04:41 PM
Kobe has much better intangibles such as mental toughness, intensity, and leadership. Kobe excels in every one of those categories.

LeBron is not clutch. I have proven, over and over again. He choked in 2 NBA finals, has less game-winning shots, and has a bad fg% in clutch shots, while not taking many shots. He literally is the opposite of clutch. He is actually more prone to choke rather than be clutch. 

You serious here?


Intangibles don't mean a damn thing, if they don't translate to performance on the court.

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 04:44 PM
Funny how old stuck in the past posters will quickly say LB is better, and has surpassed Kobe's all time rank...but u ask these same people if he passed Magic and Bird they'll laugh at you and say he hasn't played long enough to pass them not realizing that Kobe has played a good 4 to 5 more years than both Magic and Bird lol... and yet they rank him above Kobe, the same Kobe that by Magic Johnson's own admission is the greatest Laker of all time, even better than himself. So basically LB > Kobe > Magic > Bird....just saying.

Lebron the greatest ever! The man in 10 years has 2 rings. He took a town of cleveland and made them champions. He took nobodys like Antwan Jamison, Shaq,LLgaustus, Varegao, West, Gibson, Hickson and made them into above average players. He didnt need to join up and leave his city to get help from other all-star players. This man is the greatest all time. His rare combination of size and speed. If Kobe and Magichad sex made a baby and Wilt and Oscar had sex and made a baby and those two babies f^cked that is how you get a baby Lebron.

Dont reference check me but im pretty sure this is all accurate

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 04:47 PM
Johnson was just being nice. What's he going to say? "I'm the greatest Laker of all time, Kobe is nothing compared to me!" ...come on now, he's just playing nice.

It must just be a re-accruing theme! Magic, Shaq, Jordan list goes on and on. Shaq played with Lebron, Wade and Kobe and says hands down Kobe, Magic says Kobe, The great Jordan says only man that could beat him in a one on one game is Kobe. All these greats are just being awful nice to this guy.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 04:48 PM
Johnson was just being nice. What's he going to say? "I'm the greatest Laker of all time, Kobe is nothing compared to me!" ...come on now, he's just playing nice.

We both dont know whether he meant it or not, only he and God know...what we do know, what is FACTUAL is that HE did SAY it....but that's neither here nor there, the point was if u are one of those people that value longevity, u are a hypocrite to say LB is better than Kobe, but not better than old heads like Magic and Bird etc, there is no logic in that whatsoever being as Kobe has played way longer than most of the all time greats that are put in front of LB strictly due to their longevity/time in the league, when the truth is maybe only Stockton, Malone, Hakeem, and KAJ has played longer than Kobe, are on par with him.

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 04:49 PM
You serious here?


Intangibles don't mean a damn thing, if they don't translate to performance on the court.

Lebron has won 50% of his finals appearances...............is that translating to the court? Im no wizard but thats a F grade where i come from and lets be honest the last chip was more of a choked game 6 by the Spurs than Lebron lol

Kobe 5/7 in Finals appearances. Thats about what 80%

AllDay28
03-08-2014, 04:51 PM
I would've loved to see Kobe on that cavs team lebron was on . No way ever would he had taken them to the finals

I would love to see Lebron competing in the West.

Larry Hughes, Shaquille O'neal, Big Z, Mo Williams, in a weak-*** conference... Tell me ONE good team Lebron had to beat in order to reach the Finals? That's right, NONE.. The only time he faced a good team was on the Finals, and he got swept easily by the Spurs.. The same Orlando team that kicked Lebron's *** was almost swept by Kobe on the finals as well.. Gasol Bynum was always injured most of the season and the rest of the team were role players who played well with kobe carrying the team the whole year.. Yet people still over look greatness and say Lebron is a better player cause he is dominating in a conference that sucks a lot.

The pacers ??? Lol

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 04:54 PM
That's like saying Kobe basically rode shaqs coattail, which is wrong, and that he did nothing, and isn't Bron playing with Wade (HoF) Allen (HOF) Bosh (Possible HOF)...

Keep up with the argument.

Kobe is an all-time great.

And I never said he rode coat tails, but he isn't on Bron's level.

Bron already has almost the same career win shares as Kobe, has 4 more efficiency points, etc.

It's not a comparison.

Lebron has Jordan's career efficiency (nobody else is in this range)

Kobe has Dirk Nowitzki's, Yao Ming's, Oscar Robertson's efficiency ratings

Kobe is 20th in player efficiency, Bron second, just behind Jordan who is closing in on.

WS/48?

Bron is 5th all time, Kobe is 34th


In all time win-shares, an accumulation statistic - Kobe is 17th, Bron is already 18th, and has 13,000 more minutes to catch Kobe, someone who he honestly could catch in the first month of next season.



Chips aren't the only way to measure greatness, and giving Kobe a bunch of credit for winning more rings is just silly. He has been a part of amazing teams, and has played 6 more prime seasons.


This isn't a contest. Lebron would have to have a career ending injury right now, and play 13,000 more worthless minutes hanging around in the NBA to be as bad as Kobe.

This is a silly debate.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 04:56 PM
LeBron is not clutch. I have proven, over and over again. He choked in 2 NBA finals, has less game-winning shots, and has a bad fg% in clutch shots, while not taking many shots. He literally is the opposite of clutch. He is actually more prone to choke rather than be clutch. 

Lebron has less game winning shots but has played seven less seasons.

As of 2008, Kobe lead the entire league in most game winning shot attempts missed. People remember the shots that he makes, not the ones that he misses.


And people who think Lebron isn't clutch are just kidding themselves. This year, in the clutch, Lebron is hitting an eFG% of .521 on clutch jump shots. Which is statistically better than anything Kobe has ever been with clutch jump shots in a regular season.

Guppyfighter
03-08-2014, 04:59 PM
Why are mods letting this thread go?

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 05:00 PM
Keep up with the argument.

Kobe is an all-time great.

And I never said he rode coat tails, but he isn't on Bron's level.

Bron already has almost the same career win shares as Kobe, has 4 more efficiency points, etc.

It's not a comparison.

Lebron has Jordan's career efficiency (nobody else is in this range)

Kobe has Dirk Nowitzki's, Yao Ming's, Oscar Robertson's efficiency ratings

Kobe is 20th in player efficiency, Bron second, just behind Jordan who is closing in on.

WS/48?

Bron is 5th all time, Kobe is 34th


In all time win-shares, an accumulation statistic - Kobe is 17th, Bron is already 18th, and has 13,000 more minutes to catch Kobe, someone who he honestly could catch in the first month of next season.



Chips aren't the only way to measure greatness, and giving Kobe a bunch of credit for winning more rings is just silly. He has been a part of amazing teams, and has played 6 more prime seasons.


This isn't a contest. Lebron would have to have a career ending injury right now, and play 13,000 more worthless minutes hanging around in the NBA to be as bad as Kobe.

This is a silly debate.

I wish we got to see a Prime Kobe in todays Eastern conference and with no talent in NBA like today. Im actually surprised with how great Lebron is his stats are not better. Jordan, Bark, Shaq, Malone all the greats, let any of them play in Lebrons time frame and this weak conference and weak NBA and their stats would be doubled.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 05:01 PM
Lebron the greatest ever! The man in 10 years has 2 rings. He took a town of cleveland and made them champions. He took nobodys like Antwan Jamison, Shaq,LLgaustus, Varegao, West, Gibson, Hickson and made them into above average players. He didnt need to join up and leave his city to get help from other all-star players. This man is the greatest all time. His rare combination of size and speed. If Kobe and Magichad sex made a baby and Wilt and Oscar had sex and made a baby and those two babies f^cked that is how you get a baby Lebron.

Dont reference check me but im pretty sure this is all accurate

I agree with you that Kobe is the more skilled offensive player, imo there are a lot of more skilled offensive players than LB, past and present, but I do believe he is a better BASKETBALL player than Kobe since scoring is not the end all be all.

LB is the only player in recent memory that can literally...literally take any team in the NBA and make them a contender. Sure Kobe is great when alongside another star/superstar, but we all saw what he was when he was alone, he didnt elevate anyone's game and was a 1 and done in the PO's, even failed to make it the 1st year w/o Shaq.

LB on that LA team doesnt blow a 3-1 lead to PHX, and he also doesnt, well at least I doubt he loses any Finals playing with a prime Shaq...im willing to say he beats BOS in the 08' finals as well with LA's roster...where on the flipside Kobe does nothing with those Cavs teams....just saying.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:01 PM
Lebron has won 50% of his finals appearances...............is that translating to the court? Im no wizard but thats a F grade where i come from and lets be honest the last chip was more of a choked game 6 by the Spurs than Lebron lol

Kobe 5/7 in Finals appearances. Thats about what 80%

Are Finals appearances done by individual players, or by teams?


Or how about this, Kobe has made the playoffs 15 times, but only won a championship 5 times.

Lebron is probably going to win his third this year, but even if he doesn't. He has 2 rings in 9 playoff appearances.


But, championships aren't individual awards, so they are a pointless barometer for greatness success. Until it's just a one-on-one Finals tournament, you can't say Lebron is worse than Kobe just because Kobe has won more rings.

I guess by your logic, Robert Horry is greater than Kobe Bryant, since he has 7 Chips, and made it passed the first round 16 years in a row.

NBA Finals wins isn't an individual accomplishment. These guys play with several other players.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 05:02 PM
We both dont know whether he meant it or not, only he and God know...what we do know, what is FACTUAL is that HE did SAY it....but that's neither here nor there, the point was if u are one of those people that value longevity, u are a hypocrite to say LB is better than Kobe, but not better than old heads like Magic and Bird etc, there is no logic in that whatsoever being as Kobe has played way longer than most of the all time greats that are put in front of LB strictly due to their longevity/time in the league, when the truth is maybe only Stockton, Malone, Hakeem, and KAJ has played longer than Kobe, are on par with him.

I'm not one of those people, I'm simply saying Magic is better than Kobe, regardless of what Magic says.



It must just be a re-accruing theme! Magic, Shaq, Jordan list goes on and on. Shaq played with Lebron, Wade and Kobe and says hands down Kobe, Magic says Kobe, The great Jordan says only man that could beat him in a one on one game is Kobe. All these greats are just being awful nice to this guy.

Of course they are, it's called respect.

mjm07
03-08-2014, 05:07 PM
This thread is comedic genius... :clap:

Bruno
03-08-2014, 05:09 PM
Its a toss up with LB being the better all around player due to his physical stature, and Kobe being the more skilled player.

A team filled with bums, gimme LB, he can make anyone a contender...a team with at least 1 all star, all nba type talent, gimme Kobe and he'll win a chip or take u to the Finals.
i think LBJ is better/more capable at leading a bunch of scrubs than Kobe because of his ability to do everything. I like Kobe more next to a true center or dominant back to the basket PF. LBJ is superb by the basket and there would naturally be crowing. LBJ is best with a stretch four or five and a roster of elite shooters for the sake of spacing and floor geometry. Kobe has proven to be excellent with one elite back to the basket player. LBJ would be excellent too he just wouldn't get as much opportunity on the low block where he thrives and finishes.

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 05:09 PM
The lack of arguments by the lebron riders is amusing haha.. The fact that he had to change teams in order to win a ring speaks for it self.

Now you’ll never be Kobe, you’re not nearly that tough.
He never ran like a girl when **** got a bit rough.
You don’t realize it now, but you can bet you’ll learn quick,
That you can’t hold the spotlight when you’re riding Wade’s d*ck.

This statement makes me seriously question this guy. I feel like this is Illusionist.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:10 PM
Kobe has much better intangibles such as mental toughness, intensity, and leadership. Kobe excels in every one of those categories.

LeBron is not clutch. I have proven, over and over again. He choked is. He literally is the opposite of clutch. He is actually more prone to choke rather than be clutch. 

Bron is more clutch than Kobe

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Makes the game winning shot a lot more often.


LeBron James was just 4-19 in our previous look at game winning shots, so in the ensuing two and a half seasons, he has come up with a very respectable 13-31 (.419) record and just the other day had a pure game winner at the buzzer to top the Warriors. In addition he has six assists and a healthy number of free throws earned.


...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups

Now we're not Kobe haters by any means and I will readily give him his due as one of the best NBA players (note however, I didn't say the best) but he certainly has an overblown reputation when it comes to the clutch shot: people remember the ones he hits, but not the ones he misses, and heck you think a 56 FGA to 1 assist ratio might be part of the problem? He does have a better record in the playoffs though, which we'll get to down below.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 05:10 PM
@Goose17

Nope, sorry, same amount of rings and he has longevity over Magic....nothing is in Magic's favor as they both played on stacked teams for their 5 rings.

Kobe proved he could sustain his play at the highest level for 18 years, but who's to say Magic wouldve? Exactly, Kobe wins and it aint even a debate.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:11 PM
Anyone 30 years and older and who has seen when the NBA was a Mans game and watched Kobe when he was averaging 37 a game knows and agrees with Jordan and that Kobe is only person comparable to the greatest ever. This league is so watered down and has no talent. Put Prime Kobe in this league today and LMAO

I'm 30 years and older.

And you are wrong.

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 05:12 PM
Are Finals appearances done by individual players, or by teams?


Or how about this, Kobe has made the playoffs 15 times, but only won a championship 5 times.

Lebron is probably going to win his third this year, but even if he doesn't. He has 2 rings in 9 playoff appearances.


But, championships aren't individual awards, so they are a pointless barometer for greatness success. Until it's just a one-on-one Finals tournament, you can't say Lebron is worse than Kobe just because Kobe has won more rings.

I guess by your logic, Robert Horry is greater than Kobe Bryant, since he has 7 Chips, and made it passed the first round 16 years in a row.

NBA Finals wins isn't an individual accomplishment. These guys play with several other players.
Championships are a team accomplishment, HOWEVER, the best player on the team accounts for the majority of the wins/losses. LeBron was not clutch whatsoever, that's why his terrible fg% in the clutch. People keep bringing up efficiency when Lebron mostly scores in the paint with lay-ups and dunks, while his defenders dare him to shoot haha, extremely pathetic for the "best player ever" .

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:16 PM
There, I added a poll


Now the question is, will any non-Lakers fans say Kobe?

bucketss
03-08-2014, 05:17 PM
I wish we got to see a Prime Kobe in todays Eastern conference and with no talent in NBA like today. Im actually surprised with how great Lebron is his stats are not better. Jordan, Bark, Shaq, Malone all the greats, let any of them play in Lebrons time frame and this weak conference and weak NBA and their stats would be doubled.

kobes last championship was 2010 , the nba is all of a sudden "weak" now right? lmao, keep trying harder.

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 05:17 PM
I also want to know why LBJ gets blamed for choking in the finals when discussing this comparison, and Kobe fans seem to forget Kobe's abysmal performance in the Pistons series. Kobe blew it that series, and no one seems to remember that one. He shot like 16% from 3 or something, and out Shaq in the series by like 40 shots.

That was Kobe blowing it so hard with 3 hall of famers on his starting rotation. One of the biggest upsets in NBA finals history. However we don't ever talk about that one.

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 05:19 PM
I agree with you that Kobe is the more skilled offensive player, imo there are a lot of more skilled offensive players than LB, past and present, but I do believe he is a better BASKETBALL player than Kobe since scoring is not the end all be all.

LB is the only player in recent memory that can literally...literally take any team in the NBA and make them a contender. Sure Kobe is great when alongside another star/superstar, but we all saw what he was when he was alone, he didnt elevate anyone's game and was a 1 and done in the PO's, even failed to make it the 1st year w/o Shaq.

LB on that LA team doesnt blow a 3-1 lead to PHX, and he also doesnt, well at least I doubt he loses any Finals playing with a prime Shaq...im willing to say he beats BOS in the 08' finals as well with LA's roster...where on the flipside Kobe does nothing with those Cavs teams....just saying.

LMAO wow! Who scores on a team of Lebron, Kwame, Smush, Odom? Lebron wouldnt be in playoffs or be up 3-1 with that roster. Has Lebron EVER won a ring without Wade and Bosh!? NOPE Has Kobe won a ring without Shaq? Yeah a couple lol

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 05:20 PM
I'm not one of those people, I'm simply saying Magic is better than Kobe, regardless of what Magic says.




Of course they are, it's called respect.

Why dont they respect Lebron then?

Bruno
03-08-2014, 05:20 PM
To me, qualifying Kobe's first three titles is no different than qualifying Wade's last two titles or Pippen's six rings or the rings of guys like McHale, Worthy, Gasol or early Havlicek. There's no shame in being a great No. 2 that wins rings, but it's not exactly the same as winning one as a No. 1. I don't judge Wade's first ring the same as I judge his last two or Havlicek's early rings like I judge his later rings when he took over that Celtics teams. Why should I treat Kobe any differently?
i'd say there's more grey here than that. it's easy to throw all #2s in a boat and consider them the same but if we as fans are constantly overanalyzing the impact of numbers 1's we should also give the time to compare and contrast the impact of #2 players in important championship runs.

most championship teams wouldn't be champions without their #2. For example there's no way you can look at Wades run from last year and say it was of equal impact to Kobe in 2001 or Scottie in 1991. and there's no way you can look at Kobes impact for 2001 and say it was the same as his impact in 2002; he didn't produce at the same level. i think each run should be evaluated for what it is opposed to simplifying it.

KingPosey
03-08-2014, 05:21 PM
As a Kings can I've always HAAAAATED Kobe, but have grown to respect his game and career.

With that said, if you want Kobe to stay ahead of Lebron you better hope for a career ending injury, or that he falls off a cliff the second half of his career stats wise.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:21 PM
Championships are a team accomplishment, HOWEVER, the best player on the team accounts for the majority of the wins/losses. LeBron was not clutch whatsoever, that's why his terrible fg% in the clutch. People keep bringing up efficiency when Lebron mostly scores in the paint with lay-ups and dunks, while his defenders dare him to shoot haha, extremely pathetic for the "best player ever" .

You realize he makes a higher percentage of game winning field goals than Kobe, right?

He scored 49 points in a playoff loss.

What more is a guy supposed to do?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200604300WAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200905200CLE.html

Bruno
03-08-2014, 05:22 PM
I also want to know why LBJ gets blamed for choking in the finals when discussing this comparison, and Kobe fans seem to forget Kobe's abysmal performance in the Pistons series. Kobe blew it that series, and no one seems to remember that one. He shot like 16% from 3 or something, and out Shaq in the series by like 40 shots.

That was Kobe blowing it so hard with 3 hall of famers on his starting rotation. One of the biggest upsets in NBA finals history. However we don't ever talk about that one.

its discussed plenty. everyone was terrible, check it out on youtube. the 2004 Pistons are a legendary team.

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 05:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUK6mwGLGBY

Last possession of the game, chance to win the game and he passes to Haslem haha, enough said.

Bruno
03-08-2014, 05:24 PM
It's not even a discussion

Bron is significantly better than Kobe.

More rings for Kobe because of playing with multiple hall of famers doesn't make him better than Bron (and whose to say Bron won't end up with more rings any way).

It's a silly debate, and no contest. Bron has already produced almost as much value as Kobe, despite playing 13,000 less minutes.

Advanced metrics show Bron to be much better too.

both players have won with hall of famers, more importantly they've both won with two of the four most successful moguls in NBA history. Red/Riley/Phil/Pop for the win (Jalen Rose Report reference).

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 05:26 PM
LMAO wow! Who scores on a team of Lebron, Kwame, Smush, Odom? Lebron wouldnt be in playoffs or be up 3-1 with that roster. Has Lebron EVER won a ring without Wade and Bosh!? NOPE Has Kobe won a ring without Shaq? Yeah a couple lol

Has Kobe ever won a ring out of the triangle? Without Phil Jack?

The 3 season of Phil Jackson being absent since 99 when Kobe started playing minutes Kobe has had horrible seasons

He's also had amazing talent around him his entire career. LA has always been that way. Yet he doesn't get the Bill Russell treatment.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:26 PM
I also want to know why LBJ gets blamed for choking in the finals when discussing this comparison, and Kobe fans seem to forget Kobe's abysmal performance in the Pistons series. Kobe blew it that series, and no one seems to remember that one. He shot like 16% from 3 or something, and out Shaq in the series by like 40 shots.

That was Kobe blowing it so hard with 3 hall of famers on his starting rotation. One of the biggest upsets in NBA finals history. However we don't ever talk about that one.

Kobe has a lot of really bad playoff games in his career, and he was quite bad in 10-11, with games like this
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201105080DAL.html
And this
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201004240OKC.html


That Finals he shot 38.1% from the field, and 17.4% from 3 with 3.6 turnovers per game on 4.4 assists with an average game score of 11.6 on 8.6 for 22.6 shooting per game.

Games 3 and 4 that series were epically bad....worse than anything Lebron has ever done in a playoff game.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 05:26 PM
LMAO wow! Who scores on a team of Lebron, Kwame, Smush, Odom? Lebron wouldnt be in playoffs or be up 3-1 with that roster. Has Lebron EVER won a ring without Wade and Bosh!? NOPE Has Kobe won a ring without Shaq? Yeah a couple lol

Lebron wouldve made Odom an all star the same way he made Mo Williams an all star who are u kidding lol

Prolly even makes Kwame a 12 and 10 guy....if my memory serves me correct Kobe also played with C. Butler one of those years and didnt utilize him correctly.

Now be honest, does Kobe lead those Cav teams to back to back 60 game seasons, or even past any of the teams LB lost to in the PO's/Finals? The short answer, no.

No one, not even MJ, due to his departure could make a team go from best rec in the league to worst, or damn near close to it.

Kaner
03-08-2014, 05:27 PM
[/B]

Malone didnt play in Finals, he was hurt and also they both (Malone and Payton) were like Kobe today....way past their primes when they joined LA.

Saying Kobe had better talent than Lebrons Cavs is absurd! Kwame, Smush, Odom, Walton, Cook, Mckie, Evans, Radmonivich, and Bynum was in his 2nd year in NBA averaging 7 and 5 lol Lebron had Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison, West, LLgaustus, Varejao, Gibson, JJ Hickson lmao hmmmmm looks like a damn good team to me
That was part of my point with the OP including Allen who's way past his prime and describing it as '3 future HOF'

I didn't say better I said comparable refering to the Cavs team Lebron carrier to the finals with Larry Hughes as his second best player.
But does that team really look good to you? Shaq and Ilgauskas were both on their last legs, Mo Williams was at average pg, Gibson sucks and barely touched the floor in the playoffs same with Hickson. West had to be a locker room nightmare, Varejao was a good roleplayer and Jamison would have been a decent 3rd option on a 8th seed who was expected to be Lebrons pippen. Not a single player in NBA history that wins a championship with those Cavs, maybe an exaggeration to say that team was the same as 07 Kobes but both of them are sub 20-30 win teams without their star.

Also in 07 Bynum was considered a very talented up and coming center with alot of trade value, Odom would have easily been the best player Lebron played with at that point. So at least Kobes team had young talent when he demanded a trade:shrug:

Goose17
03-08-2014, 05:28 PM
Why dont they respect Lebron then?

What makes you think they don't respect Lebron?

bucketss
03-08-2014, 05:28 PM
LMAO wow! Who scores on a team of Lebron, Kwame, Smush, Odom? Lebron wouldnt be in playoffs or be up 3-1 with that roster. Has Lebron EVER won a ring without Wade and Bosh!? NOPE Has Kobe won a ring without Shaq? Yeah a couple lol

i cant take you serious. who will score? acting like lebron is rondo or something.

Bruno
03-08-2014, 05:29 PM
LBJ is a player of legendary ability but he will have to continue his success if he wants to pass Kobe all-time. if LBJ has plateaued and doesn't win any more, the being in the moment of his dominance will fade away in favor of younger stars and Kobe will still be considered to have had the better career (this is what many people really discuss when talking about the greatest players of all time, not peak, but career). LBJ needs to continue his recent success if he is to pass Kobe all-time. he's already displayed the necessary peak to be considered amongst the best. how long does he keep it up?

I think LBJ will win more. at least another ring and another MVP.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 05:31 PM
LMAO wow! Who scores on a team of Lebron, Kwame, Smush, Odom? Lebron wouldnt be in playoffs or be up 3-1 with that roster. Has Lebron EVER won a ring without Wade and Bosh!? NOPE Has Kobe won a ring without Shaq? Yeah a couple lol

Odom if it's the prime Odom that Kobe played with.

Kobe has won rings without Shaq but they were with prime Gasol and prime Odom.

Prime Gasol > prime Bosh.

Rings aren't a reflection of individual talent. Teams win championships. How many times do people need to tell yiu this?

PraiseJesus
03-08-2014, 05:32 PM
Kobe was better than LeBron

In the last few year LeBron has become an all time great

Trust me not all Laker fans are Kobephiles

nastynice
03-08-2014, 05:34 PM
Thats irrelevant bcuz he didnt win anything that 1st year playing alongside a top 3 and top 10 player, the years he did win he didnt have a top 3 player alongside him, nor a top 10 player (u might could argue Wade was top 10 in 2012).

As for the rest of your post its nothing more than YOUR opinion, but I dont want your opinion I want facts and stats proving that Shaq and Hakeem are better than him...Hakeem doesnt stack up in anyway, and Shaq has 2 more rings than he does with the same amount of finals losses.

Truth be told the general consensus is that he's already surpassed them, thats why everybody asks "do you think he can be better than MJ"...not Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq etc, because subconsciously he's already thought to be better than them by most...just saying.

mm, its hard not to take that into account tho. If Jordan joined up with Magic and Ewing, and THEN proceeded to win 6 finals, he wouldn't be seen in the same light as he is today. I'm not saying it to dismiss lebron, because he's been absolutely spectacular since he's come to miami, even his first year when they lost I thought outside of the finals he was playing in the playoffs at an extremely high level. I'm not trying to take away what he's done, but its also hard to ignore that fact that he joined up with two other superstars. That fact has SOME weight in my eyes.

And just as players get credit for making players around them better, they also deserve to take heat for making players around them worse, which is what is going on with the big 3 in miami. Lebron makes role players around him better, but he makes franchise players worse. Which is understandable, its not his fault, they just got a couple guys that play their best when the offense goes through them. Obviously a poorly "built" team, but the talent level is so insanely high that it doesn't matter.

Nothing after that is my opinion. If you want to say me calling the east a cake walk (outside of boston) is my opinion, ok fine, I'll accept that. Just understand it is an opinion shared by just about everyone.

As far as me asking how his game will change as he ages, that's not really an opinion, that's just me saying why its so hard to compare players at such diff point in their careers.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:35 PM
Bron is more clutch than Kobe

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Makes the game winning shot a lot more often.

What's most alarming is that last line

Kobe has 56 last second field goal attempts, to one assist, has shot 14/56 with 12/15 free throws, and has 5 turnovers.

Lebron has shot 17/50 with 14/20 free throws, 6 assists, 4 turnovers

Pretty clear who is 'more clutch'

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 05:35 PM
What makes you think they don't respect Lebron?

I think u lol'd at me the other day when I said I didnt think much of LB as a scorer...and I can tell u right now that a lot of people dont 'respect' that facet of his game.

Not once in life has a player named him as one of the toughest people to guard, its always the same names, Melo, Kobe, KD, T mac, MJ, AI etc...but never him, cuz like I said he takes smart shots and rarely ever truly ABUSES anyone, even when he goes for 40+..

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 05:39 PM
That was part of my point with the OP including Allen who's way past his prime and describing it as '3 future HOF'

I didn't say better I said comparable refering to the Cavs team Lebron carrier to the finals with Larry Hughes as his second best player.
But does that team really look good to you? Shaq and Ilgauskas were both on their last legs, Mo Williams was at average pg, Gibson sucks and barely touched the floor in the playoffs same with Hickson. West had to be a locker room nightmare, Varejao was a good roleplayer and Jamison would have been a decent 3rd option on a 8th seed who was expected to be Lebrons pippen. Not a single player in NBA history that wins a championship with those Cavs, maybe an exaggeration to say that team was the same as 07 Kobes but both of them are sub 20-30 win teams without their star.

Also in 07 Bynum was considered a very talented up and coming center with alot of trade value, Odom would have easily been the best player Lebron played with at that point. So at least Kobes team had young talent when he demanded a trade:shrug:

Does Lebron get to the Finals if he is in the West with that team? NOPE not even close. I think its not really fair to compare these 2 players because like i posted earlier how can you? They are completely different players, one is pass first, the other is shoot first. One is 6'9 260, other is 6'6 210. Now all this talk about what if you switched the players on others teams stuff is also funny cause if Lakers had Lebron you dont have that killer instict and big time scorer they needed with Kobe on Cavs prob not enough team ball or Kobe on Heat with Wade and Bosh prob doesnt work cause Wade and Kobe are a bad como together IMO. Lebron is really a PG in a PF body like Magic. Kobe is a scorer and ISO god. Both great in own way. They would prob be great teamates. Lets say swap Kobe and Wade. Give Lakers Wade on their runs and Kobe with Lebron and Bosh and Allen ect.

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 05:39 PM
Kobe has a lot of really bad playoff games in his career, and he was quite bad in 10-11, with games like this
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201105080DAL.html
And this
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201004240OKC.html


That Finals he shot 38.1% from the field, and 17.4% from 3 with 3.6 turnovers per game on 4.4 assists with an average game score of 11.6 on 8.6 for 22.6 shooting per game.

Games 3 and 4 that series were epicly bad....worse than anything Lebron has ever done in a playoff game.

**** happens though. I don't consider Kobe a choke because he ****ed up some series. Hell Magic ****ed up in the playoffs too.

That's why the opinion is ridiculous. Bad series happen. They don't cancel out the good stuff you've done in your career.

nastynice
03-08-2014, 05:41 PM
Here's the end to this thread . Laker and Kobe fans will say Kobe , every other nba fan and non homers will say lebron

mmm, to be honest, its pretty close. Here's the thing, if Kobe didn't play so much hero ball, I would definitely take him over lebron. But he did, and it cost them one championship vs the celtics. Its only one negative, but a pretty big one....hard to ignore.

nastynice
03-08-2014, 05:42 PM
What's most alarming is that last line

Kobe has 56 last second field goal attempts, to one assist, has shot 14/56 with 12/15 free throws, and has 5 turnovers.

Lebron has shot 17/50 with 14/20 free throws, 6 assists, 4 turnovers

Pretty clear who is 'more clutch'

wow, are those numbers accurate?? they both freakin suck in the clutch lol

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 05:43 PM
Anyways fg% doesn't matter. It's eFG%, which he has shot over 50% on multiple occasions. 34% 3pters for 50 shot attempts equals 102 points, while 50% 2pt for 50 attempts is 100 points. Just because you take easier shots does not mean you are more efficient. Anyways, he takes much, much less game winning attempts because he is/was simply scared. He knows he's not the offensive weapon all the time to come up big when it matters. The majority of the time lebron didn't take the shot, they lose. That's just how it goes. Kobe is WAY, and emphasis on "way" more clutch than lebron. I'm pretty sure lebron would even tell you that

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:43 PM
**** happens though. I don't consider Kobe a choke because he ****ed up some series. Hell Magic ****ed up in the playoffs too.

That's why the opinion is ridiculous. Bad series happen. They don't cancel out the good stuff you've done in your career.
100% and that's why it's ridiculous to say Lebron sucks because of his time in Cleveland.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:44 PM
wow, are those numbers accurate?? they both freakin suck in the clutch lol

Well you got to remember that teams are crashing hard on the best players and usually they are low percentage shots being put up.

Carmello has pretty good numbers in those situations though (oddly enough). And it's a small sample size too.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 05:44 PM
Not once in life has a player named him as one of the toughest people to guard,

Again, what players say usually isn't all that.

If you ask Durant who the toughest player is to guard, he's not going to say Lebron, because Lebron is seen as his rival, he's going to undermine him and say someone who is clearly not as good. Exactly what Kobe did when he said Melo was the toughest player to guard. Paul George said Durant was the toughest to guard, I'm sure that had nothing to do with the Indiana - Miami rivalry. Lol, come on now, you should know better, players do this kind of thing all the time.

When you're the alpha, the number one guy, head and shoulders above everyone else. None of your opponents are going to hype you up, the media does enough of that already.

Baller1
03-08-2014, 05:44 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUK6mwGLGBY

Last possession of the game, chance to win the game and he passes to Haslem haha, enough said.

This just summed up the whole thread... Kobe fans point to one play and it defines Lebron. :laugh2:

How sad.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 05:45 PM
mm, its hard not to take that into account tho. If Jordan joined up with Magic and Ewing, and THEN proceeded to win 6 finals, he wouldn't be seen in the same light as he is today. I'm not saying it to dismiss lebron, because he's been absolutely spectacular since he's come to miami, even his first year when they lost I thought outside of the finals he was playing in the playoffs at an extremely high level. I'm not trying to take away what he's done, but its also hard to ignore that fact that he joined up with two other superstars. That fact has SOME weight in my eyes.

And just as players get credit for making players around them better, they also deserve to take heat for making players around them worse, which is what is going on with the big 3 in miami. Lebron makes role players around him better, but he makes franchise players worse. Which is understandable, its not his fault, they just got a couple guys that play their best when the offense goes through them. Obviously a poorly "built" team, but the talent level is so insanely high that it doesn't matter.

Nothing after that is my opinion. If you want to say me calling the east a cake walk (outside of boston) is my opinion, ok fine, I'll accept that. Just understand it is an opinion shared by just about everyone.

As far as me asking how his game will change as he ages, that's not really an opinion, that's just me saying why its so hard to compare players at such diff point in their careers.

U keep saying the word "SUPERSTAR", what im trying to tell you is that in last year's playoff run if u were to rip the last names off of Bosh and Wade's jerseys and replace it with Brown and Robinson they wouldnt be looked at as no damn "superstars", they both played like utter ****.

Miami had no SUPERSTAR PLAY last year aside from LBJ, he damn near led that team to a chip all by his lonesome, u couldve easily replaced Bosh with Andrey Blatche and Wade with Joe Johnson since that was the type of production those 2 were given more often than not...did Bosh even score in gm 7? Superstar, huh?...ha!!

Baller1
03-08-2014, 05:46 PM
Kobe fanboys:

Who's the better player? Shaq from 2000-2004, or Wade from 2010-present?

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:46 PM
Anyways fg% doesn't matter. It's eFG%, which he has shot over 50% on multiple occasions. 34% 3pters for 50 shot attempts equals 102 points, while 50% 2pt for 50 attempts is 100 points. Just because you take easier shots does not mean you are more efficient. Anyways, he takes much, much less game winning attempts because he is/was simply scared. He knows he's not the offensive weapon all the time to come up big when it matters. The majority of the time lebron didn't take the shot, they lose. That's just how it goes. Kobe is WAY, and emphasis on "way" more clutch than lebron. I'm pretty sure lebron would even tell you that

You have a funny cliche narrative for everything.

Lebron is now too scared to take game winning shots.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 05:46 PM
Anyways fg% doesn't matter. It's eFG%, which he has shot over 50% on multiple occasions. 34% 3pters for 50 shot attempts equals 102 points, while 50% 2pt for 50 attempts is 100 points. Just because you take easier shots does not mean you are more efficient. Anyways, he takes much, much less game winning attempts because he is/was simply scared. He knows he's not the offensive weapon all the time to come up big when it matters. The majority of the time lebron didn't take the shot, they lose. That's just how it goes. Kobe is WAY, and emphasis on "way" more clutch than lebron. I'm pretty sure lebron would even tell you that

Kobe leads the league in most game winning shots missed.

Keep remembering the makes and forgetting the misses, those rose tinted glasses serve you well.

And what makes you think Lebron is scared to take the shots? That's ludicrous.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 05:47 PM
This just summed up the whole thread... Kobe fans point to one play and it defines Lebron. :laugh2:

How sad.

And it was a good look for Haslem while Lebron was being double teamed lol

nastynice
03-08-2014, 05:51 PM
U keep saying the word "SUPERSTAR", what im trying to tell you is that in last year's playoff run if u were to rip the last names off of Bosh and Wade's jerseys and replace it with Brown and Robinson they wouldnt be looked at as no damn "superstars", they both played like utter ****.

Miami had no SUPERSTAR PLAY last year aside from LBJ, he damn near led that team to a chip all by his lonesome, u couldve easily replaced Bosh with Andrey Blatche and Wade with Joe Johnson since that was the type of production those 2 were given more often than not...did Bosh even score in gm 7? Superstar, huh?...ha!!

So if that's the case, why did he join them to begin with? You act like because a player isn't putting up certain numbers, defenses all of a sudden forget what they're capable of doing. If lebron plays along side chris bosh who puts up 5 points, or drew gooden who puts up 5 points, I can promise you that still impacts the game and how defenses play. Like I said in my earlier post, there's only one ball to go around, that doesn't all of a sudden diminish what a player is capable of achieving.

nastynice
03-08-2014, 05:51 PM
And it was a good look for Haslem while Lebron was being double teamed lol

lol, I was gonna say, that was actually a REALLY GOOD play by lebron. Haslem with a wide open look at the top of the key. He just didn't hit an open shot. It happens...

see, kobe woulda played hero ball and tried to force it over two guys, rather than giving it to a wide open dependable shooter. That's my biggest issue with kobe.

Baller1
03-08-2014, 05:53 PM
And it was a good look for Haslem while Lebron was being double teamed lol

BUT HE PASSED IT IN THE FINAL SECONDS. NO CLUTCH.

God forbid he makes a smart basketball play. :laugh2:

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 05:53 PM
Again, what players say usually isn't all that.

If you ask Durant who the toughest player is to guard, he's not going to say Lebron, because Lebron is seen as his rival, he's going to undermine him and say someone who is clearly not as good. Exactly what Kobe did when he said Melo was the toughest player to guard. Paul George said Durant was the toughest to guard, I'm sure that had nothing to do with the Indiana - Miami rivalry. Lol, come on now, you should know better, players do this kind of thing all the time.

When you're the alpha, the number one guy, head and shoulders above everyone else. None of your opponents are going to hype you up, the media does enough of that already.

lmao you're hilarious u do know that, right?

U keep trying to think for others when in actuality u dont know what their thought process is, although I do see where you're coming from as that is human nature and what most people do, shortchanging people they perceive as a threat to them...but if that's the case, let me ask you, how come they didnt do it to Mike and Kobe? These guys were also at the top of the game.

I dont know if you actually play ball but I know the type of guy LB is and trust me I rather guard that kind of guy, as oppose to a guy with an array of offensive moves and weapons, which LB just doesnt have for some reason.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 06:01 PM
I dont know if you actually play ball but I know the type of guy LB is and trust me I rather guard that kind of guy, as oppose to a guy with an array of offensive moves and weapons, which LB just doesnt have for some reason.

I do play, and I would rather guard Kobe. Lebron would just bully me, that strength is frightening. Either way I'm getting burned though.



how come they didnt do it to Mike and Kobe? These guys were also at the top of the game.

They did at the time, they won't now because they're no longer a threat, their careers are over, Lebron is still a threat.

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 06:02 PM
The fact that half the people feel lebron made a good move by leaving really fears me of what this world is coming to.. Bottom line (especially when you were born and raised there) this is your team you can either **** over 3 million cavs fans, or satisfy one miami heat player and about 200 of their fans.. thats real as its gonna get.

nastynice
03-08-2014, 06:03 PM
They did at the time, they won't now because they're no longer a threat, their careers are over, Lebron is still a threat.

ehh...?

Goose17
03-08-2014, 06:04 PM
The fact that half the people feel lebron made a good move by leaving

He did, he was never going to win in Cleveland because the front office was atrocious and had no idea how to build a championship caliber roster. Guys like Kobe and Jordan never had that problem, they had great people in the front office that consistently brought in strong supporting talent to compete for a long time.

jerellh528
03-08-2014, 06:05 PM
The fact the Lebron is leading 9-3 speaks volumes about how young psd is.

nastynice
03-08-2014, 06:06 PM
The fact that half the people feel lebron made a good move by leaving really fears me of what this world is coming to.. Bottom line (especially when you were born and raised there) this is your team you can either **** over 3 million cavs fans, or satisfy one miami heat player and about 200 of their fans.. thats real as its gonna get.

He wanted to create a legacy. Didn't feel like he could do it in Cleveland. Let the man be.

Those Cavs teams weren't all that bad, but toward the end there they were making nothing but desperation moves and really in about 6 (?) years that james was there they were never able to find a legitimate #2. I can't really blame him. That's a long time to wait for your team to prove they know how to build a championship caliber team, without just relying on lebron to carry them.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 06:07 PM
So if that's the case, why did he join them to begin with? You act like because a player isn't putting up certain numbers, defenses all of a sudden forget what they're capable of doing. If lebron plays along side chris bosh who puts up 5 points, or drew gooden who puts up 5 points, I can promise you that still impacts the game and how defenses play. Like I said in my earlier post, there's only one ball to go around, that doesn't all of a sudden diminish what a player is capable of achieving.

5 points is 5 points it doesn't matter from who...if you're playing like **** you're not gonna get the same attention that you're when you're on your game.

If Norris Cole is 8 for 8 from 3pt land im pretty sure in a close game the opposing coach is making sure he's getting doubled and doesn't want him shooting the GW, u think he's gonna say oh, well he's just 8 for 8, but at the end of the day he's Norris Cole hahaha, **** him.....no, he doesnt want the ball in his hands, period.

LA lost a couple PO series in recent years cuz Gasol, a "'superstar" played like a ****in D Leaguer, so IDW hear it, LB won that chip with no superstar help, end of story...give the man his props.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 06:08 PM
The fact the Lebron is leading 9-3 speaks volumes about how young psd is.

LOL, no, it tells me there's not as many Kobe fan boys as I thought. This has nothing to do with age, any unbiased basketball fan can see Lebron is the superior player.



ehh...?

I don't know how to respond to this, are you asking a question?

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 06:10 PM
The fact that half the people feel lebron made a good move by leaving really fears me of what this world is coming to.. Bottom line (especially when you were born and raised there) this is your team you can either **** over 3 million cavs fans, or satisfy one miami heat player and about 200 of their fans.. thats real as its gonna get.

Are you 13? It's a business. Yeah it sucks that he left, but they have the worst owner in the NBA. Cleveland was a black hole. Good for him for leaving. It was the smart decision. He should of been more aware of how he was going to hurt people. He apologized. However he should not feel bad in the least bit for leaving in free agency.

nastynice
03-08-2014, 06:12 PM
5 points is 5 points it doesn't matter from who...if you're playing like **** you're not gonna get the same attention that you're when you're on your game.

If Norris Cole is 8 for 8 from 3pt land im pretty sure in a close game the opposing coach is making sure he's getting doubled and doesn't want him shooting the GW, u think he's gonna say oh, well he's just 8 for 8, but at the end of the day he's Norris Cole hahaha, **** him.....no, he doesnt want the ball in his hands, period.

LA lost a couple PO series in recent years cuz Gasol, a "'superstar" played like a ****in D Leaguer, so IDW hear it, LB won that chip with no superstar help, end of story...give the man his props.

Well first off, I already gave him his props. My whole thing is, you can't just ignore what he did. Its just too big to ignore. And 5 points isn't just 5 points, I find it hard to believe that you actually believe that.

Ray Allen was ice cold in the finals last year, tell me who was the last player the spurs wanted shooting that three at the end of game 6, and who is the first player the heat wanted shooting it??

Even the mia dallas finals, miami woulda won that last (or second to last?) game if they went to Bosh more. But they didn't. Whatever their reasoning is, they just didn't. Now since Bosh didn't put up numbers since the ball didn't go to him, does that negate the fact that he was just abusing them on the offensive end? hell no, you best believe dallas knew what he was doing and focused some attention that way.

Maybe this is just one of those agree to disagree things, but I honestly find it hard to believe that you mean the first sentence in the post I quoted

nastynice
03-08-2014, 06:13 PM
I don't know how to respond to this, are you asking a question?

yes, my question is where the hell did you come across that little tidbit from?

Matter.
03-08-2014, 06:14 PM
Bottomline is Kobe is higher up on the all time list Right now imo. Maybe Lebron beats maybe he doesn't? Who knows how Lebron will be after his prime.. But Kobe is more skilled then Lebron.

jerellh528
03-08-2014, 06:16 PM
LOL, no, it tells me there's not as many Kobe fan boys as I thought. This has nothing to do with age, any unbiased basketball fan can see Lebron is the superior player.




I don't know how to respond to this, are you asking a question?

Yeah most of these guys who are about 23 or younger are just goin back and looking at career stats without having witnessed Kobe's peak or taking context into consideration. Anyone can pull up stats of two different players and say player a is better than player b because he has more assists and higher fg% blah blah. But it's the entire picture we need to look at. But ofcourse everyone is biased and has their own opinion which will never change so me writing this is a waste of my time.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 06:24 PM
Well first off, I already gave him his props. My whole thing is, you can't just ignore what he did. Its just too big to ignore. And 5 points isn't just 5 points, I find it hard to believe that you actually believe that.

Ray Allen was ice cold in the finals last year, tell me who was the last player the spurs wanted shooting that three at the end of game 6, and who is the first player the heat wanted shooting it??

Even the mia dallas finals, miami woulda won that last (or second to last?) game if they went to Bosh more. But they didn't. Whatever their reasoning is, they just didn't. Now since Bosh didn't put up numbers since the ball didn't go to him, does that negate the fact that he was just abusing them on the offensive end? hell no, you best believe dallas knew what he was doing and focused some attention that way.

Maybe this is just one of those agree to disagree things, but I honestly find it hard to believe that you mean the first sentence in the post I quoted

So honestly, tell me with a straight face that teams game plan and strategize for D Wade right now in 2014 the same way they did in 2010....gimme a break lol

And my point stands, last year D Wade was ALL NBA 3rd team, meaning mathematically he wasnt a top 10 player, and Bosh wasnt even selected I believe...soooo, LB won with a top 15 player and thats it.

Every superstar has a top 15 player on their side when they win a chip aside from Hakeem 94' and Dirk in 11'....so why is it diff now when LB has one? He shouldve won in CLE with his top right hand wing man being a top 75 player right lol smh

Goose17
03-08-2014, 06:26 PM
Didn't Pippen say that Lebron is better than Jordan?
Pierce said he was better than Kobe.
Iverson told a friend he thought he was the greatest player of all time.
Magic Johnson once tweeted; "The great ones Michael, Larry, Kareem, LeBron and now Kevin Durant can put their teams on their back and win!" completely omitting Kobe.
Phil Jackson said Jordan would beat Kobe one on one, Jordan said Kobe might beat him one on one.
Phil Jackson said Lebron would beat Durant one on one.
Michael Jordan said Durant wouldn't be a franchise player in his "era"


Some of these things you might agree with some you might not. The point is, it doesn't matter what coaches or (especially) what players say, everyone has an opinion, and you have no idea what is going through their head when they say these things. Sometimes it's just utter B.S, sometimes it's genuinely just their opinion. These players are some of the most arrogant people that have ever graced this earth of ours, of course they think that their "era" is superior etc, it's just the way they're wired.

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 06:28 PM
The fact the Lebron is leading 9-3 speaks volumes about how young psd is.

Oh 4 sure. Lebron wouldnt lose a count to anyone. Luckily i got to watch Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron ect ect. The thing that most stands out to me is not the players, its the game. Just watch open court TV with Reggie, Shaq, Webber, Kerr, Smith ect ect they all say same thing that NBA is not a mans game anymore. Shaq and Kobe were not most talented team out there. Portland and Kings were both more talented. NBA and NBA playoffs were so much more intense and physical. A lot more good teams and both conferences were good. Today there is a lack in talent and one conference has 1-2 good teams and that's it. Back then it was beat the best now days its join with the best. Put any of the greats in their prime in todays NBA esp the East and their stats would be doubled. I miss the good old NBA.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 06:30 PM
Yeah most of these guys who are about 23 or younger are just goin back and looking at career stats without having witnessed Kobe's peak or taking context into consideration. Anyone can pull up stats of two different players and say player a is better than player b because he has more assists and higher fg% blah blah. But it's the entire picture we need to look at. But ofcourse everyone is biased and has their own opinion which will never change so me writing this is a waste of my time.

Not everyone is biased. Unbiased fans with a good amount of basketball knowledge who understand the stats and have witnessed both players play will always land on Lebron being the better player.

Like I say, a lot of older people have their rose tinted glasses on, they remember Kobe's highlights not his low points. They remember his makes, not his misses (leads the league in most game winning shot attempts missed).

Nobody is dismissing Kobe's talent and place in basketball history, but Lebron is the better player. That doesn't make Kobe any less great, he's still one of the best that has ever done it.

If people want to argue the intangibles or whatever then that's a whole other discussion.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 06:31 PM
LB haters are hilarious....give Magic, Kareem...give MJ, Pippen...give Bird, McHale...give Kobe, Shaq....give TD, Tony Parker.

**** it, give Lebron, Mo Williams lmaooooo smh

Goose17
03-08-2014, 06:31 PM
Put any of the greats in their prime in todays NBA esp the East and their stats would be doubled. I miss the good old NBA.

:laugh:

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 06:33 PM
4 votes for kobe are Lakers fans 1 is a Bulls fan. The 2 franchises that hate LBJ the most. Hmm I wonder why? Lol.

jerellh528
03-08-2014, 06:35 PM
Not everyone is biased. Unbiased fans with a good amount of basketball knowledge who understand the stats and have witnessed both players play will always land on Lebron being the better player.

Like I say, a lot of older people have their rose tinted glasses on, they remember Kobe's highlights not his low points. They remember his makes, not his misses (leads the league in most game winning shot attempts missed).

Nobody is dismissing Kobe's talent and place in basketball history, but Lebron is the better player. That doesn't make Kobe any less great, he's still one of the best that has ever done it.

If people want to argue the intangibles or whatever then that's a whole other discussion.

Good point. I'll say Lebron is the better overall player. But how much does that matter to us? As a lakers fan, the peak we can achieve in fandom is watching our team win a championship and I've watched Kobe help us win 5 while being one of the best players on the planet, so I'll always have his back because he brought me the pinnacle of fandom 5 times. Where Lebron will land amongst the greats? I dunno and I don't care as much as others.

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 06:35 PM
"If the rules were the same now as when Michael played, he'd average 40 a game with ease if he wanted to," Kerr said. "The way people used to try to manhandle him and rough him up — you can't do that anymore.

"You can barely touch a guy. As incredible as Michael was 15 years ago and as unstoppable as he was, it would be much more glaring now. I think it's important that we remember that."

James is in the midst of an amazing personal stretch. While leading Miami to 7 straight wins before the all-star break, he averaged 32 points and shot an amazing 69 percent from the field.

Jordan was very complimentary of James in his television interview. Asked to pick between Kobe and LeBron, he answered, "Five (championships) beats two every time I look at it. And not that (James) won't get five. He may get more than that, but five is bigger than two."

For years, many analysts, Kerr included, have suggested James has more in common with Scottie Pippen than he does Jordan. Like Pippen, James is a multiskilled team player and ace defender who does more than score.

Of course, James has kicked it up a few notches.

"(James) is more of a point forward than a scoring guard," Kerr said. "What he's done the last couple years has kind of become a Super Scottie because he's capable of doing a lot more offensively than Scottie did in terms of taking over a game.

"LeBron is just amazing and breathtaking to watch. I think he's great for the NBA. We're so lucky that we're even having this conversation, that we can even mention somebody in the same breath as Michael. And I think (Kevin) Durant is right there, too."

The Bulls certainly have plenty of respect for James. They tried to sign him in 2010 and ended up getting buried by James and the Heat in the Eastern Conference finals a few months later.

For the time being, though, Jordan has six titles, Bryant five and James two.

During all-star weekend, James made a good point, saying no one would argue Bill Russell is better than Jordan or Robert Horry is better than Oscar Robertson. There's more to the game than rings.

"When you make comparisons with these elite level guys, almost inevitably if you compliment one guy, it feels like you're sort of demeaning the other," Kerr added. "I think that's the wrong way to approach it.

"We're talking about probably the three of the best seven or eight players in the history of the game, and they're all phenomenal in their own right. They're just different."

I think thats a great way to end this post. Both are great in own way. This is def Lebrons ERA of NBA. No denying that. But i think most would agree this is the worst the NBA has been in a very long time (Rules/player talent). Hoping these next 5 years or so brings more talent in. Hopefully this so called GREAT draft this year is as good as they say

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 06:40 PM
Good point. I'll say Lebron is the better overall player. But how much does that matter to us? As a lakers fan, the peak we can achieve in fandom is watching our team win a championship and I've watched Kobe help us win 5 while being one of the best players on the planet, so I'll always have his back because he brought me the pinnacle of fandom 5 times. Where Lebron will land amongst the greats? I dunno and I don't care as much as others.

This is the thing. You say you don't care yet you've been fighting this fight forever. The fact of the matter is many Lakers fans do care. They care a lot. They care so much they make threads making the comparisons, and bombard any LBJ fan with Kobe stats. It does matter to a rather large amount of Lakers fans.

It's the debate that isn't a debate anymore that won't go away. I get you love Kobe. Trust me my childhood hero is Griffey. In my eyes he's the GOAT in baseball, but when having a resonable discussion with people I know that just isn't true.

You'd probably pick Kobe over Jordan, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's part of a fan, but when having a reasonable discussion people need to be able to nut up, and just say "yeah LBJ is the better player". There has to be a line where you don't let your fandom overwrite your knowledge of basketball.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 06:41 PM
In terms of talent the only things the 90's had over this current era is dominant talent at the center position.

At almost every other position, especially at the pg's and wings it's a landslide for this era...smh at people trying to downplay this era to suit their personal agenda.

nastynice
03-08-2014, 06:41 PM
So honestly, tell me with a straight face that teams game plan and strategize for D Wade right now in 2014 the same way they did in 2010....gimme a break lol

And my point stands, last year D Wade was ALL NBA 3rd team, meaning mathematically he wasnt a top 10 player, and Bosh wasnt even selected I believe...soooo, LB won with a top 15 player and thats it.

Every superstar has a top 15 player on their side when they win a chip aside from Hakeem 94' and Dirk in 11'....so why is it diff now when LB has one? He shouldve won in CLE with his top right hand wing man being a top 75 player right lol smh

Of course they don't strategize the same way, Wade doesn't get near the amount of touches he used to. Doesn't mean he isn't capable of going off any given night tho. Like I said, a player not producing big numbers due to him not getting the calls is very different than a player not producing big numbers because they are simply uncapable of doing so.

It not different that lebron has a top 15 player, its different that he joined with two top 10 players. We all know they took paycuts to play together, because we all know their market values were much higher. Kinda says something, doesn't it.

jerellh528
03-08-2014, 06:42 PM
This is the thing. You say you don't care yet you've been fighting this fight forever. The fact of the matter is many Lakers fans do care. They care a lot. They care so much they make threads making the comparisons, and bombard any LBJ fan with Kobe stats. It does matter to a rather large amount of Lakers fans.

It's the debate that isn't a debate anymore that won't go away. I get you love Kobe. Trust me my childhood hero is Griffey. In my eyes he's the GOAT in baseball, but when having a resonable discussion with people I know that just isn't true.

You'd probably pick Kobe over Jordan, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's part of a fan, but when having a reasonable discussion people need to be able to nut up, and just say "yeah LBJ is the better player". There has to be a line where you don't let your fandom overwrite your knowledge of basketball.

Yeah except I just said lbj is the better overall player in my second sentence.

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 06:46 PM
"If the rules were the same now as when Michael played, he'd average 40 a game with ease if he wanted to," Kerr said. "The way people used to try to manhandle him and rough him up — you can't do that anymore.

"You can barely touch a guy. As incredible as Michael was 15 years ago and as unstoppable as he was, it would be much more glaring now. I think it's important that we remember that."

James is in the midst of an amazing personal stretch. While leading Miami to 7 straight wins before the all-star break, he averaged 32 points and shot an amazing 69 percent from the field.

Jordan was very complimentary of James in his television interview. Asked to pick between Kobe and LeBron, he answered, "Five (championships) beats two every time I look at it. And not that (James) won't get five. He may get more than that, but five is bigger than two."

For years, many analysts, Kerr included, have suggested James has more in common with Scottie Pippen than he does Jordan. Like Pippen, James is a multiskilled team player and ace defender who does more than score.

Of course, James has kicked it up a few notches.

"(James) is more of a point forward than a scoring guard," Kerr said. "What he's done the last couple years has kind of become a Super Scottie because he's capable of doing a lot more offensively than Scottie did in terms of taking over a game.

"LeBron is just amazing and breathtaking to watch. I think he's great for the NBA. We're so lucky that we're even having this conversation, that we can even mention somebody in the same breath as Michael. And I think (Kevin) Durant is right there, too."

The Bulls certainly have plenty of respect for James. They tried to sign him in 2010 and ended up getting buried by James and the Heat in the Eastern Conference finals a few months later.

For the time being, though, Jordan has six titles, Bryant five and James two.

During all-star weekend, James made a good point, saying no one would argue Bill Russell is better than Jordan or Robert Horry is better than Oscar Robertson. There's more to the game than rings.

"When you make comparisons with these elite level guys, almost inevitably if you compliment one guy, it feels like you're sort of demeaning the other," Kerr added. "I think that's the wrong way to approach it.

"We're talking about probably the three of the best seven or eight players in the history of the game, and they're all phenomenal in their own right. They're just different."

I think thats a great way to end this post. Both are great in own way. This is def Lebrons ERA of NBA. No denying that. But i think most would agree this is the worst the NBA has been in a very long time (Rules/player talent). Hoping these next 5 years or so brings more talent in. Hopefully this so called GREAT draft this year is as good as they say

I wouldn't. I personally believe things progress over time. Call me crazy.

The league is definitely top heavy now because of the free agency era, but the overall talent of the league since the 90's is much better. It's still a superstar player, but there are 10x's the role players than the 90's.

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 06:47 PM
Yeah except I just said lbj is the better overall player in my second sentence.

After you voted for Kobe.

freejimmer
03-08-2014, 06:48 PM
LeCollude is a beta male that is allowed to bull rush defenders and get the foul called on them.

LeCoward left his own team to join a finals MVP and another HOF player in their prime. Another beta move.

LeSleeve LeDefers more than he takes control. More beta behavior.

LeStatPadder avoids anything that will make his box score look bad, even if it is at the expense of winning the game. Beta move.

Fact of the matter is, you have to be an alpha dog to truly be a GOAT candidate. While Kobe isn't the GOAT, he is in the top 10 of GOAT candidates. Why? He is alpha. Kobe Bryant is an alpha male, and he takes all responsibility upon his shoulders. We all know Kobe is much more skilled than LeBullDoze, but what separates him even more so, is his alpha male mentality. Kobe has it, period. Kobe is not afraid of the moment. Kobe demanded a team full of scrubs just to rub it in the faces of naysayers after he won with them.

LeBeta will never be a top 10 GOAT candidate.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 06:48 PM
Of course they don't strategize the same way, Wade doesn't get near the amount of touches he used to. Doesn't mean he isn't capable of going off any given night tho. Like I said, a player not producing big numbers due to him not getting the calls is very different than a player not producing big numbers because they are simply uncapable of doing so.

It not different that lebron has a top 15 player, its different that he joined with two top 10 players. We all know they took paycuts to play together, because we all know their market values were much higher. Kinda says something, doesn't it.

I understand what u mean by him wanting to team up with top 10 guys (mind you Bosh was never a top 10 guy aside from maybe one year, he has 1 all nba selection in 07')....but is that what he got? No.

He got that in Wade in 10-11'......and lost! He then went out and won 2 in a row, without a top 10 guy...but yes, his agenda was to cheat and get easy rings, I admit that, but that isnt what happened.

Its like u goin to take a test with the answer sheet on u but lose it, but u still end up passing the test anyway....am I supposed to say "but u went with the answer sheet on you" lol...it doesnt matter anymore, all irrelevant, buddy.

nickdymez
03-08-2014, 06:51 PM
lmfao @ someone saying they would rather guard Kobe than Lebron...

Wolfman01
03-08-2014, 06:51 PM
Until LeBron wins more then 5 rings and score more then 81 points then yeah he's better then Kobe.

Goose17
03-08-2014, 06:56 PM
lmfao @ someone saying they would rather guard Kobe than Lebron...

Why is it so funny? I couldn't guard either, I'm not an NBA player. I could at least attempt to stay in front of a broken down pensioner Kobe. Lebron could literally bench press me with one hand. He would just bully me.

The thing that makes Lebron so special is his versatility, his finesse skills combined with his strength, speed and athleticism. He's like the kind of player you would make in a video game.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 06:57 PM
lmfao @ someone saying they would rather guard Kobe than Lebron...

If we're both the same weight and height ya damn right...Melo can hold his own strength wise with LB, I guarantee you he would rather guard him than Kobe.

Period, no matter how bad or good someone is its a pain in the *** guarding a super offensive minded player, or should I just say a chucker, especially a talented one lol...LB is too unselfish to put fear in anyone's heart...facts.

jerellh528
03-08-2014, 07:00 PM
After you voted for Kobe.

Poll asked who is the greater player all time, I took it as taking everything into account. But if you ask me today who is the better overall player, sure I'll say lbj.

Snapshot
03-08-2014, 07:03 PM
Read the thread wrong and voted LB...oh well.

"All time", easily Kobe as it stands...but currently, and since 08', and more than likely when its all said and done, LBJ.

Dade County
03-08-2014, 07:14 PM
Lbj & Wade will be considered better players when all is said and done...

People are just going to have to deal with it (and I am not a Lbj fan, he gave Dallas a title, his a con-artist like the others that came before him)

Wade was going to win that Final's Mvp against Dallas in 2010... But I find it funny that Wade is the one that stepped down, so Lbj can win the Final's Mvp's & get all the glory. It doesn't even make sense, why does the player that performed the best (Wade), had to step aside for the player that was throwing the series (Lbj)?


NBA = Entertainment

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 07:18 PM
Lbj & Wade will be considered better players when all is said and done...

People are just going to have to deal with it (and I am not a Lbj fan, he gave Dallas a title, his a con-artist like the others that came before him)

Wade was going to win that Final's Mvp against Dallas in 2010... But I find it funny that Wade is the one that stepped down, so Lbj can win the Final's Mvp's & get all the glory. It doesn't even make sense, why does the player that performed the best (Wade), had to step aside for the player that was throwing the series (Lbj)?


NBA = Entertainment

Wait just one minute. Since when is Wade better than Kobe a fair statement? Dywane Wade is one of the most overrated players, he is a ref-made superstar. His efficiency drops when he doesn't get his b.s. calls.

ManRam
03-08-2014, 07:21 PM
Myth No.1: Lebron has more MVPs. Kobe should have won regular season MVPs in the following years: 2001, 2003, 2005-2010.

Stopped reading after this.

That's a mind-bogglingly dumb comment

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 07:22 PM
The fact the Lebron is leading 9-3 speaks volumes about how young psd is.

I'm 30+

I watched all of MJ's career, all of Kobe's career, and thus far, all of Lebron's career


Lebron is head and shoulders greater than Kobe....and on his way to catching Jordan one day.


Every single vote for Kobe is from someone in California or is a Lakers fan with posts in the Lakers forum.

That should speak volumes on how clear it is that Lebron is superior.

ManRam
03-08-2014, 07:24 PM
Kobe's legacy is better.
LeBron's been the better player in their respective peaks.
This thread isn't original.
This forum is getting bland again.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 07:33 PM
Bottomline is Kobe is higher up on the all time list Right now imo. Maybe Lebron beats maybe he doesn't? Who knows how Lebron will be after his prime.. But Kobe is more skilled then Lebron.

1. Lebron has almost already caught Kobe all time
2. Lebron has several years until he actually enters his decline phase, allowing him more than enough time to easily surpass him.
3. Lebron is easily more skilled too. Kobe has never had the ability to dominant both sides of the game like Lebron has. Lebron can take over a game single handedly. Kobe has never had the shooting rates that Lebron currently has, the passing ability, the rebounding ability, or the dominant defensive presence that Lebron has had.


For Lakers fans, you would be better off trying to compare Magic Johnson who Lakers fans should be trying to compare him too, which of course, Lebron is easily passing him too. But at least when Magic retired he was at that level and on his way to being an all-time great (and of course he is at this point anyway, but Magic basically did all of Kobe's career in terms of value, and was done at a much younger age).

Lebron dominates all over Kobe. The matter has always simply been, when he passes him, which is probably sometime within the next 12 months. Lebron would require a career ending injury, immediately, in order to be next to Kobe in all-time ranks.

Dade County
03-08-2014, 07:34 PM
Wait just one minute. Since when is Wade better than Kobe a fair statement? Dywane Wade is one of the most overrated players, he is a ref-made superstar. His efficiency drops when he doesn't get his b.s. calls.

I just dropped Wade name, because I know that would get the Kobe fans in arms lol

But I have stated in the past that Wade will go down as the 2nd greatest sg ever, when all is said and done. And don't blame super star players for the foul calling, that was a product of Jordan and stern.

Call out jordan first before you call out other players for getting calls, it all started with him (the super star foul call.)

And please don't act like Kobe didn't get the 2nd most B.S foul calls after Jordan... smh

Matter.
03-08-2014, 07:42 PM
Lbj & Wade will be considered better players when all is said and done...

People are just going to have to deal with it (and I am not a Lbj fan, he gave Dallas a title, his a con-artist like the others that came before him)

Wade was going to win that Final's Mvp against Dallas in 2010... But I find it funny that Wade is the one that stepped down, so Lbj can win the Final's Mvp's & get all the glory. It doesn't even make sense, why does the player that performed the best (Wade), had to step aside for the player that was throwing the series (Lbj)?


NBA = Entertainment


Really?

Matter.
03-08-2014, 07:44 PM
1. Lebron has almost already caught Kobe all time
2. Lebron has several years until he actually enters his decline phase, allowing him more than enough time to easily surpass him.
3. Lebron is easily more skilled too. Kobe has never had the ability to dominant both sides of the game like Lebron has. Lebron can take over a game single handedly. Kobe has never had the shooting rates that Lebron currently has, the passing ability, the rebounding ability, or the dominant defensive presence that Lebron has had.


For Lakers fans, you would be better off trying to compare Magic Johnson who Lakers fans should be trying to compare him too, which of course, Lebron is easily passing him too. But at least when Magic retired he was at that level and on his way to being an all-time great (and of course he is at this point anyway, but Magic basically did all of Kobe's career in terms of value, and was done at a much younger age).

Lebron dominates all over Kobe. The matter has always simply been, when he passes him, which is probably sometime within the next 12 months. Lebron would require a career ending injury, immediately, in order to be next to Kobe in all-time ranks.

Lebron would need to win this year to surpass Kobe....

Kobe can't take over a game? ... seriously?

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 07:45 PM
Yeah most of these guys who are about 23 or younger are just goin back and looking at career stats without having witnessed Kobe's peak or taking context into consideration. Anyone can pull up stats of two different players and say player a is better than player b because he has more assists and higher fg% blah blah. But it's the entire picture we need to look at. But ofcourse everyone is biased and has their own opinion which will never change so me writing this is a waste of my time.

I have absolutely zero bias when it comes to the NBA.

I don't have a favorite team, favorite player, or anything.

I am a St. Louis Cardinals baseball fan, who likes the NBA. We didn't have an NBA team in my area growing up.

And I am over 23.

I have no bias here. Kobe is a quality scorer who tip-toed on the chucker line for a few years. He was a great, young, quality player for years, who was so exciting to watch during his peak, as he did have glimpses as if he was prime Jordan. But he never really was that. He never rose to that level. He played on some great teams, on an organization that was committed to getting great quality around him (Shaq, Dwight, Odom, Gasol, etc).

Kobe won some Chips, on some awesome teams. And he was the best player on a lot of those teams. He is an all-time great, I would say around 10-20th range on a knee-jerk reaction.


Lebron is an absolute all-time great. He has a fair shot at being the best ever. He is basically Jordan, with better defense and less shots taken and more physical. If Jordan had not sat out some prime and decline seasons, then I dunno if Lebron could ever catch him. But missing that time makes it so that Lebron actually could catch him, and honestly, pass him with relative ease.


Lebron needs a couple more seasons of prime quality performances (a few more MVP's and Chips would certainly help his cause for the fans who think those measure greatness). And then a relatively healthy, average Hall of Famer decline.

Both of those are very reasonable things for Bron to easily do.



This idea that just because you realize that Lebron is greater than Kobe, doesn't mean someone is young, or biased. That's a horrible way of viewing the world and the NBA's fans. The arguments being made for Kobe are riddled in ignorance and fan-boy mentalities. No one is using any logic to pick Kobe. While you have that from the Bron side of the argument. What does that tell you?

Instead, Kobe supporters are saying things like, well Lebron is a choker (false), Kobe should have more MVP's, so they are literally giving him credit for non-winning MVP's, they are acting as if he won his Chips alone, and that Bron can't win the post-season (more myths). And are coming up with intangibles are their reasonings.

It's nothing short of grasping at straws to defend a childhood idol.

Jeffy25
03-08-2014, 07:49 PM
Lebron would need to win this year to surpass Kobe....

Kobe can't take over a game? ... seriously?

I didn't say that, I said he can't like Lebron can.

Matter.
03-08-2014, 07:51 PM
I didn't say that, I said he can't like Lebron can.

Care to provide examples, sir?

numba1CHANGsta
03-08-2014, 07:55 PM
Takeout individual awards and records, who has the best skill set? who's more clutch? who can carry a team and win multiple championships? Yeah Kobe won with Shaq but Kobe won 2 championships with no hall of famers or all-stars other than Pau. LeBron made the Finals but got swept, then he joined 2 other all-stars to win 2 championships along with a hall of famer in Ray Allen.

JordansBulls
03-08-2014, 07:58 PM
Right now Lebron can rank as high as top 6 to Top 13. Kobe from top 5 to Top 12.

ManRam
03-08-2014, 08:02 PM
Care to provide examples, sir?

Any statistic metric suggest LeBron has been better in the "clutch" over the span of their respective careers. Be it field goal percentage in general, field goal percentage on game-winning shots, PER, +/- in close/late games, or whatever.

People started easing on the "OMG Kobe is the clutchest" when this hit. And ever since then people have expounded upon it tenfold.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Like this: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again
Or this: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7649571/nba-kobe-bryant-not-money-think-espn-magazine
And this: http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

It goes on for ever. The statistical breakdown of clutch play doesn't paint a great picture for Kobe.

Lot's of game winners, even more misses. The realization that "hero ball" kinda sucks and leads to incredibly poor looks and low percentage shots didn't help him, especially since he was never a willing passer late in games (something LeBron has always been). The open look from even just a decent shooter is always a better shot than a heavily contested step back three. Always.

ManRam
03-08-2014, 08:04 PM
Takeout individual awards and records, who has the best skill set? who's more clutch? who can carry a team and win multiple championships? Yeah Kobe won with Shaq but Kobe won 2 championships with no hall of famers or all-stars other than Pau. LeBron made the Finals but got swept, then he joined 2 other all-stars to win 2 championships along with a hall of famer in Ray Allen.

A remarkable feat tho, no? Considering his age, and his team?

Never got why his 2007 run has ever been used as a negative.

Matter.
03-08-2014, 08:05 PM
Any statistic metric suggest LeBron has been better in the "clutch" over the span of their respective careers. Be it field goal percentage in general, field goal percentage on game-winning shots, PER, +/- in close/late games, or whatever.

People started easing on the "OMG Kobe is the clutchest" when this hit. And ever since then people have expounded upon it tenfold.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Like this: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again
Or this: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7649571/nba-kobe-bryant-not-money-think-espn-magazine
And this: http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

It goes on for ever. The statistical breakdown of clutch play doesn't paint a great picture for Kobe.

Lot's of game winners, even more misses. The realization that "hero ball" kinda sucks and leads to incredibly poor looks and low percentage shots didn't help him, especially since he was never a willing passer late in games (something LeBron has always been). The open look from even just a decent shooter is always a better shot than a heavily contested step back three. Always.

What about throughout a game?

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 08:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g55ms6JRoBQ

The most artistically creative player I have ever seen in my life. I'll put it to any LeBron lovers that decide to come over here on this video and hate like this, anything LeBron can do Kobe can also. There are things Kobe can do that LBJ can't FACT. Keep lay-uping Lebron.. I don't want to hear that field goal percentage crap. Kobe is a shooting guard who has to take the amount of shots he has taken. Lebron has better teammates which are threats themselves and cause a defense to spread across the court. Lebron gets most of his points from dunking/layups. Shooting however that's a total different story

nickdymez
03-08-2014, 08:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g55ms6JRoBQ

The most artistically creative player I have ever seen in my life. I'll put it to any LeBron lovers that decide to come over here on this video and hate like this, anything LeBron can do Kobe can also. There are things Kobe can do that LBJ can't FACT. Keep lay-uping Lebron.. I don't want to hear that field goal percentage crap. Kobe is a shooting guard who has to take the amount of shots he has taken. Lebron has better teammates which are threats themselves and cause a defense to spread across the court. Lebron gets most of his points from dunking/layups. Shooting however that's a total different story

Most of these shots were at the end of the shot clock too. Most people dont realize that with Kobe.. He takes the difficult shots. He's not trying to pad his %.

ApoelUltras
03-08-2014, 08:32 PM
Without a doubt - No Wade-Bosh, No Championship. Had to betray his own home-state in order to eventually wins, my grandmother would have won with that supporting cast, his defenders dare him to shoot, his FG% is so high because he only dunks and lay-up.. some pathetic facts about the so called "best player ever" haha..

Jamiecballer
03-08-2014, 08:39 PM
Kobe has never been particularly close to the peak that we've already seen from Lebron. And the man is still getting better.

Baller1
03-08-2014, 08:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g55ms6JRoBQ

The most artistically creative player I have ever seen in my life. I'll put it to any LeBron lovers that decide to come over here on this video and hate like this, anything LeBron can do Kobe can also. There are things Kobe can do that LBJ can't FACT. Keep lay-uping Lebron.. I don't want to hear that field goal percentage crap. Kobe is a shooting guard who has to take the amount of shots he has taken. Lebron has better teammates which are threats themselves and cause a defense to spread across the court. Lebron gets most of his points from dunking/layups. Shooting however that's a total different story

You're arguing that Kobe had a more aesthetically pleasing game... Sure, take that title for Kobe. No one gives a **** if his game "looked better".

We're talking about the better player. And that player is undoubtedly Lebron. I don't give a **** how difficult the shots are that he takes... Realistically that just means he's taking dumber shots and therefore has a lower basketball IQ.

Bottom line, you can have Kobe and his "sexy" game. I'll take the all time great with an overall game that dwarfs Kobe's.

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 08:57 PM
Without a doubt - No Wade-Bosh, No Championship. Had to betray his own home-state in order to eventually wins, my grandmother would have won with that supporting cast, his defenders dare him to shoot, his FG% is so high because he only dunks and lay-up.. some pathetic facts about the so called "best player ever" haha..

Let me guess. Dupe account? This is Illusionist isn't it?

ztilzer31
03-08-2014, 09:07 PM
Harder shots=better player. Downtown Freddie Brown is GOAT then.

NFLNBA
03-08-2014, 09:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g55ms6JRoBQ

The most artistically creative player I have ever seen in my life. I'll put it to any LeBron lovers that decide to come over here on this video and hate like this, anything LeBron can do Kobe can also. There are things Kobe can do that LBJ can't FACT. Keep lay-uping Lebron.. I don't want to hear that field goal percentage crap. Kobe is a shooting guard who has to take the amount of shots he has taken. Lebron has better teammates which are threats themselves and cause a defense to spread across the court. Lebron gets most of his points from dunking/layups. Shooting however that's a total different story

I think most people believe Kobe is the superior offensive player. His range was 2nd to none, his footwork was maybe best ever for a guard, his jumper was sexy, when he was tasked to shut you down he could. He does things i never seen Jordan do. People are saying Lebron is the better overall player and he is. His Size alone and being around basket more makes him a better rebounder. He is 50 pounds heavier and 3 inches taller. He also is a pass first guy/point forward we should call him. So overall the man brings more to the game. IMO they would be a deadly duo. Replace wade with Kobe and oh my. Different positions, different mind sets, different players but both great in there own way

hidalgo
03-08-2014, 09:27 PM
LeBron over Kobe easily. prime vs prime LeBron easily as well

i think the only year Kobe was better than LeBron was LeBron's rookie year. Kobe's the most overrated player ever. i wish he'd just retire already

SwatTeam
03-08-2014, 09:41 PM
Give me Gheorge Muresan any day over both these chumps. First off, Muresan beats them in sheer size, no one comes close. He doesn't even have to jump to dunk the ball. Those are just skills blessed upon him by the almighty. Second, Muresan is from Romania that makes him cultured. Kobe thinks he's cultured because he knows Italian but really it just makes him a douche. Third, Muresan is white and his credit score is better. Game over!

5ass
03-08-2014, 10:00 PM
Give me Gheorge Muresan any day over both these chumps. First off, Muresan beats them in sheer size, no one comes close. He doesn't even have to jump to dunk the ball. Those are just skills blessed upon him by the almighty. Second, Muresan is from Romania that makes him cultured. Kobe thinks he's cultured because he knows Italian but really it just makes him a douche. Third, Muresan is white and his credit score is better. Game over!
No doubt.

numba1CHANGsta
03-08-2014, 10:02 PM
A remarkable feat tho, no? Considering his age, and his team?

Never got why his 2007 run has ever been used as a negative.

That's the whole point tho, he gave up and went to Miami with 2 all-stars to guarantee himself a ring. He should have stayed he would have won eventually and make his career even more meaningful.

Dade County
03-08-2014, 10:35 PM
That's the whole point tho, he gave up and went to Miami with 2 all-stars to guarantee himself a ring. He should have stayed he would have won eventually and make his career even more meaningful.

He should have stayed there because you said so?



he would have won eventually

Who says? Are you privilege to some special knowledge, did you see the script? Their is noting that you can bring forth to prove that Lbj would have ever won a title in Cleveland.



and make his career even more meaningful

:( So his career is meaningless because when he was a free agent, he decided to sign with the HEAT (not your team/city)?... So any player that signed with another team, and won a title, their entire career from that point is invalid.

Oh, let me guess, you only feel that way, when it comes to star players, but the other's (shaq term), can do whatever they want, and win rings...etc

Who do you think you are... crazy fanatic

Baller1
03-08-2014, 10:37 PM
That's the whole point tho, he gave up and went to Miami with 2 all-stars to guarantee himself a ring. He should have stayed he would have won eventually and make his career even more meaningful.

That's BS though. Everyone would be talking about how he can't win... Staying and not winning anything is much worse than leaving and winning a lot.

nickdymez
03-08-2014, 11:04 PM
You're arguing that Kobe had a more aesthetically pleasing game... Sure, take that title for Kobe. No one gives a **** if his game "looked better".

We're talking about the better player. And that player is undoubtedly Lebron. I don't give a **** how difficult the shots are that he takes... Realistically that just means he's taking dumber shots and therefore has a lower basketball IQ.

Bottom line, you can have Kobe and his "sexy" game. I'll take the all time great with an overall game that dwarfs Kobe's.

5 Rings....

tdg823
03-08-2014, 11:11 PM
Lebron is easily the most interesting character in sports right now because there are so many unappreciated layers to discussions of him. Anyway, I've read all this thread(I'm working a double, it's slow) and I wanted to make a few random points, take for what you want. For the record, I'm a Celtic's fan from Ohio. Don't care for either player really, they're both spoiled ja******s if you pay any attention to them.

In Cleveland, wasn't Mo Williams an all star? Z too? Wasn't Larry Hughes a decent player for awhile? When did Jamison become a bum? He was doing awfully well for the Wizards if my fuzzy mind recalls correctly. I think we forget some of these things when we talk about his Cleveland team. On a side note, the front office was too busy trying to please and cater to him. They ran their personnel decisions by him because they were scared to lose him. He played a role in that teams makeup, an indictment on the organization, not a young kid.

Lebron also is very overrated around here as a jump shooter. Please stop that. He had one good year that severely altered perceptions. Exclude that one year and tell me what happened before and after. Small samples are unreliable. Look at how teams absolutely dare him to shoot in the playoffs and how on more than one occasion he's gone extended stretches being visibly scared to shoot. Now is it better to be a soulless chucker? Fair question. . That being said Lebron has a greater impact on the game because of his physicality and style of play. He doesn't have to "create" like 99% of the NBA, he just puts his head down and goes. That is not a skill. Please read that again. Especially not a basketball skill. If everything were legit, he'd get a lot more charging calls, less foul shots. If you don't see the way he uses that off arm when he's in "aggressive" mode and almost always in critical situations, don't bother reading or responding to this post. Obviously we are seeing in different parts of the spectrum. The same thing with his game winners. How many of them came at the rim after some questionable contact? How many of Kobe's did? Context does matter, even though that word always seem to cause trouble in here. Maybe because context is subjective I guess? Anyway...
Not really fair to compare game winners without more context. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Someone with more interest and inclination than me can. But almost every game I watch in the clutch he's going into Marshawn Lynch Beast Mode going to the basket on the final possession. Someone said they'd rather guard Kobe than Lebron, I've played street and Y ball for longer than most of you have been potty trained and my niche is defense. Trust me I'd rather guard Lebron. He can't bench press you out of the way as someone said, that really is an offensive foul. Nor can he push you or lower his shoulder (and don't think I won't make a big scene in a crowded park about an obviously BS call, much to friend's chagrin I will). His game isn't built on skill, it's built on physical advantages and the way the game is called nowadays.

Yes the east is horrible now. Was Boston even really that good in their day? Does anyone here consider Pierce, Allen or KG actual superstars at that point in their careers? Did anyone notice how often they went through horrible, extended offensive stretches all the time? Heck Indiana now might be one of the strongest teams Lebron's ever faced in the east and I'm not all that impressed with them sometimes.

Yes motivation heart, effort and desire matter. If you really think that idea disqualifies one from having an informed opinion, well I'll just shake my head and move on...

Does anyone notice the horrible turnover numbers these guys put up from time to time?

Basically it's an argument on my end of the meaning of better. Lebron is a once in a generation physical freak. His style of play and the conditions in the league right now fit him perfectly. He is by no means a once in a generation basketball talent. The league is smaller and he's one of the4 biggest players on the court and the most athletic. Shouldn't he grab boards? He's bigger than most guys guarding him, doesn't that help him see passing lanes. For the record, that second point isn't a strong as the first, he is a great passer, just not Bird/Magic great like some might wish. He's nothing special as a rebounder. Basically Lebron is an aluminum bat in an all wood league. Kobe isn't without his warts and faults, he's inefficient, selfish and was definitely a product of right place/right time through his career. But if by skill you mean ability to do creative and difficult things with a basketball (shoot it, dribble it, pass it, rebound it, defend it) it's Kobe hands down. If you mean biggest impact on a game, darn the torpedoes, I mean the reasons, give me Lebron.

tdg823
03-08-2014, 11:11 PM
Wow that was long...

Baller1
03-08-2014, 11:17 PM
5 Rings....

And he wasn't even the best player on his team for three of them. This isn't golf or tennis, this is basketball. A team game in it's entirety.

hidalgo
03-08-2014, 11:27 PM
5 rings, but everyone knows he was only the man for 2 rings

so really it's 2-2 in rings cause even Allan Houston, or Sprewell could have filled in for Kobe & 3 peated with Shaq then, LeBron would have won every single year with prime Shaq (also as the man LeBron made 1 more nba finals 4 to 3, & more mvps 4 to 1, & better stats)

Dade County
03-08-2014, 11:28 PM
And he wasn't even the best player on his team for three of them. This isn't golf or tennis, this is basketball. A team game in it's entirety.

Also Pau should have won that last Final's Mvp... So you can say that Kobe only really shined as the MAN, against Orlando, when it comes to the Final's that is (he's side kick numbers are better when he played along side Shaq, because of his youth and Shaq dominates).

Dade County
03-08-2014, 11:36 PM
His game isn't built on skill, it's built on physical advantages and the way the game is called nowadays.

But this started when Mj one his 1st championship... He is the creator of the super star foul call, don't blame Lbj.

The same foul calls you see now, was happening back then when Jordan started winning all of his rings, but worse.



Does anyone notice the horrible turnover numbers these guys put up from time to time?

Yes, thats call them rigging the damn game!!! But no one seems to notice.

jerellh528
03-08-2014, 11:44 PM
Lebron is easily the most interesting character in sports right now because there are so many unappreciated layers to discussions of him. Anyway, I've read all this thread(I'm working a double, it's slow) and I wanted to make a few random points, take for what you want. For the record, I'm a Celtic's fan from Ohio. Don't care for either player really, they're both spoiled ja******s if you pay any attention to them.

In Cleveland, wasn't Mo Williams an all star? Z too? Wasn't Larry Hughes a decent player for awhile? When did Jamison become a bum? He was doing awfully well for the Wizards if my fuzzy mind recalls correctly. I think we forget some of these things when we talk about his Cleveland team. On a side note, the front office was too busy trying to please and cater to him. They ran their personnel decisions by him because they were scared to lose him. He played a role in that teams makeup, an indictment on the organization, not a young kid.

Lebron also is very overrated around here as a jump shooter. Please stop that. He had one good year that severely altered perceptions. Exclude that one year and tell me what happened before and after. Small samples are unreliable. Look at how teams absolutely dare him to shoot in the playoffs and how on more than one occasion he's gone extended stretches being visibly scared to shoot. Now is it better to be a soulless chucker? Fair question. . That being said Lebron has a greater impact on the game because of his physicality and style of play. He doesn't have to "create" like 99% of the NBA, he just puts his head down and goes. That is not a skill. Please read that again. Especially not a basketball skill. If everything were legit, he'd get a lot more charging calls, less foul shots. If you don't see the way he uses that off arm when he's in "aggressive" mode and almost always in critical situations, don't bother reading or responding to this post. Obviously we are seeing in different parts of the spectrum. The same thing with his game winners. How many of them came at the rim after some questionable contact? How many of Kobe's did? Context does matter, even though that word always seem to cause trouble in here. Maybe because context is subjective I guess? Anyway...
Not really fair to compare game winners without more context. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Someone with more interest and inclination than me can. But almost every game I watch in the clutch he's going into Marshawn Lynch Beast Mode going to the basket on the final possession. Someone said they'd rather guard Kobe than Lebron, I've played street and Y ball for longer than most of you have been potty trained and my niche is defense. Trust me I'd rather guard Lebron. He can't bench press you out of the way as someone said, that really is an offensive foul. Nor can he push you or lower his shoulder (and don't think I won't make a big scene in a crowded park about an obviously BS call, much to friend's chagrin I will). His game isn't built on skill, it's built on physical advantages and the way the game is called nowadays.

Yes the east is horrible now. Was Boston even really that good in their day? Does anyone here consider Pierce, Allen or KG actual superstars at that point in their careers? Did anyone notice how often they went through horrible, extended offensive stretches all the time? Heck Indiana now might be one of the strongest teams Lebron's ever faced in the east and I'm not all that impressed with them sometimes.

Yes motivation heart, effort and desire matter. If you really think that idea disqualifies one from having an informed opinion, well I'll just shake my head and move on...

Does anyone notice the horrible turnover numbers these guys put up from time to time?

Basically it's an argument on my end of the meaning of better. Lebron is a once in a generation physical freak. His style of play and the conditions in the league right now fit him perfectly. He is by no means a once in a generation basketball talent. The league is smaller and he's one of the4 biggest players on the court and the most athletic. Shouldn't he grab boards? He's bigger than most guys guarding him, doesn't that help him see passing lanes. For the record, that second point isn't a strong as the first, he is a great passer, just not Bird/Magic great like some might wish. He's nothing special as a rebounder. Basically Lebron is an aluminum bat in an all wood league. Kobe isn't without his warts and faults, he's inefficient, selfish and was definitely a product of right place/right time through his career. But if by skill you mean ability to do creative and difficult things with a basketball (shoot it, dribble it, pass it, rebound it, defend it) it's Kobe hands down. If you mean biggest impact on a game, darn the torpedoes, I mean the reasons, give me Lebron.

I've tried to explain that his cast in Cleveland was better than most people say. But nobody listens, it's a waste of time to mention anything that might put Lebron in a light other than one that would shine upon a god.

tdg823
03-08-2014, 11:48 PM
Groupthink is dangerous and opposing it is not for the weak or feint of heart.

IKnowHoops
03-08-2014, 11:52 PM
What "statistics and facts" say Kobe isn't better than Lebron?! Basketball isn't a game stats, its a game of skill and wining. Name a player beside Jordan that has a better combination offensive and defensive skill? 5 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 81 points, 4 AMVPs, 15 All Star games, 11 NBA First team, 4th all time scorer, 37 game winners, dunk champion, 12 three pointers in one game, 35 PPG in a season. Let me know when your favorite player has accomplished that and more. And talking about skills, what skills does Lebron have? Because being a 250lb man doesn't make you skilled and talented.. That's how Lebron dominates, using his physical power to dominate in the paint, having no constant jump-shot. But that's not a talent, basketball is not bodybuilding Lebron fans.. Kobe has a better jump shot, is more clutch, has a better basketball IQ, has more rings, is more loyal, does not flop and is more determinant to succeed.. And the ones that tell that Kobe was carried in those rings are total idiots, not only because it's not true, but at least Kobe stayed loyal to the same team for over 15 years, and didn't take the easy path to greatness like Lebron did, when he entered a team full of all-stars because he proved that alone he couldn't win anything. Also last year, Kobe and Lebron's numbers were very close, and just remember that Kobe is 35 years old and Lebron is in his prime. Maybe Lebron is slightly better now, but he is nowhere close to a prime Kobe.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFvN4PmO1ElxJYXDjAAtmB0dbju1ctJ Sos5pj3au_wMmhwfno9Fg

Myth No.1: Lebron has more MVPs. Kobe should have won regular season MVPs in the following years: 2001, 2003, 2005-2010. Kobe averaged at least 27 ppg, 5rebpg, 5astpg while being all nba1st team in EVERY one of those years. That includes playing on dominant/winning teams (2001, 2003,2008-2010) and played well through injury/team injury (shaq/bynum). That also includes putting up the best stats in the year (2006-2007). 36 ppg/32 ppg respectively. (while keeping 5 rebpg 5 astpg/all nba 1st team D).

Myth No.2: Lebron is the Chosen-One. LeBron was destined "the chosen one" but won NOTHING when he was on the Cavs. He was self-proclaimed "King" and his slogan "Witness" was given to him WITHOUT WINNING. He should've been called Ringless when he was on the cavs because he brought nothing to back to Cleveland. He couldn't win any championships, so he ran to Miami where 3 (Yes, three) hall of famers were waiting for him (Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen) with a hall of fame Architect in Pat Riley. Jordan never had more than 1 all-star on his team in a single year, while Kobe had two all-stars only once (if you count bynum an all-star lol). Lebron has had at-least 2 all-stars on his team for 4 straight years.

Myth No.3: Lebron James is clutch. Lebron james 2011 NBA finals: 2011 nba finals: 18 ppg, 48% fg, 60% ft, 6 turnovers pg, 7 rebpg 7 apg. with 2 PPG IN 4th quarter lmao

You're telling me this guy is supposed to be clutch? How about his first nba finals:2007 NBA finals. 22 ppg 35% fg, 69% ft, 6 Turnovers pg, 7 rebpg 7 apg

Myth No.4: It just shows that people are soooooo brain-washed by ESPN, that they literally can't think for themselves. Lebron never had a terrible team... nobody could have a terrible team and get 1st seed in the east. He just couldn't win in the playoffs, and came up short. He needed an easier way out, so he ran to miami with 3 other hall of famers (wade/bosh/allen) with pat riley calling the shots. He got lucky that kobe/boston big 3 got past their prime. MO williams was an all-star on his team, larry hughes was a top 10 sg in the nba, shaq/big Z were both over 7' and could rebound/score in paint/good paint D, with strong role players in gooden, varejao, boobie gibson.. Who else do you want to succeed in a weak conference, even weaker than today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/files/2013/04/kobebryant11.jpg

No disrespect to Lebron, I think he is an amazing player.. I just hate how his fans dare to compare him with Kobe, or even Michael Jordan haha and how quickly they forget how amazing was Kobe in his prime years.

No joke, 2005-2010 was the funniest inch of PSD I have read.

IKnowHoops
03-08-2014, 11:59 PM
I've tried to explain that his cast in Cleveland was better than most people say. But nobody listens, it's a waste of time to mention anything that might put Lebron in a light other than one that would shine upon a god.

Yet that cast without him was the worst team in the league the next year.

tdg823
03-09-2014, 12:14 AM
Man I live an hour from Cleveland, I don't think you realize the psychological effect that had on the city. Don't know if I believe this or not, but wouldn't that effect the team too? If your mom was crying because her only son died and you were like "wait I'm here too mom, did you forget you had another kid?" How would you react? Maybe not the greatest analogy , but I wouldn't be surprised if the players folded it in , said screw it, the fans left us and counted the days until they left too. NBA Finals to first round exit would discourage a lot of people and that was their ceiling. Would you strive for that in a dying, cold city with heartbroken fans that are so obsessed with the guy that left that they don't care about you? Also remember they lost a superstar and got nothing in return. What would OKC do without Durant? That question is for those of you who believe in the talents of Westbrook, Ibaka, Jackson, etc.

Just speculation ,take it for what it's worth, part of my whole "everything is not quantifiable/context" theme that's so unpopular here. No number reflects what his loss did to the team and the city.

jerellh528
03-09-2014, 01:44 AM
Yet that cast without him was the worst team in the league the next year.

Yeah when 5 out of 10 of your most mpg players leave the team the following year, it causes drastic change, it wasn't just lbj that left. Including an entirely new head coach and staff as well. I mean after Jordan left the bulls for the first time they only lost 5 more games from the previous season. Lbj is good, but not that good.

Bostonjorge
03-09-2014, 02:28 AM
Yet that cast without him was the worst team in the league the next year.

And lebron's first year in Miami with a prime wade and prime bosh were the best team in the league that year. How did that turn out?

Dade County
03-09-2014, 02:39 AM
I've tried to explain that his cast in Cleveland was better than most people say. But nobody listens, it's a waste of time to mention anything that might put Lebron in a light other than one that would shine upon a god.


Yeah when 5 out of 10 of your most mpg players leave the team the following year, it causes drastic change, it wasn't just lbj that left. Including an entirely new head coach and staff as well. I mean after Jordan left the bulls for the first time they only lost 5 more games from the previous season. Lbj is good, but not that good.

Those Cav's teams were regular season teams... They did not have the makeup to push themselves into the Final's.



And lebron's first year in Miami with a prime wade and prime bosh were the best team in the league that year. How did that turn out?

That wasn't prime Wade, watch you mouth.... He just wasn't injured. And you want to know what happened, lbj avg 1.2 pts in 4 straight Final's games in the 4th quarter (he wouldn't even shoot the damn ball).

Con-Artist ****!!!!!!!

slashsnake
03-09-2014, 02:42 AM
And lebron's first year in Miami with a prime wade and prime bosh were the best team in the league that year. How did that turn out?

Better than 10+ of Kobe's seasons? It was their first year together you know. Kobe with a prime Shaq, and Eddie Jones, added a prime Glen Rice and then got swept out of the playoffs by the spurs their first go round together.

MTar786
03-09-2014, 02:43 AM
lebron is the GOAT in the open court.. thats pretty much it imo. half court ball lebron is over rated.

Bostonjorge
03-09-2014, 03:00 AM
Better than 10+ of Kobe's seasons? It was their first year together you know. Kobe with a prime Shaq, and Eddie Jones, added a prime Glen Rice and then got swept out of the playoffs by the spurs their first go round together.
Lakers actually traded jones for rice. Rice actually hurt the lakers he played like lebron did against Dallas. Kobe and shaq were still able to win with this handicap. After they got rid of rice they went on to destroy the spurs in a clean sweep.

Jeffy25
03-09-2014, 03:18 AM
Any statistic metric suggest LeBron has been better in the "clutch" over the span of their respective careers. Be it field goal percentage in general, field goal percentage on game-winning shots, PER, +/- in close/late games, or whatever.

People started easing on the "OMG Kobe is the clutchest" when this hit. And ever since then people have expounded upon it tenfold.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Like this: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again
Or this: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7649571/nba-kobe-bryant-not-money-think-espn-magazine
And this: http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

It goes on for ever. The statistical breakdown of clutch play doesn't paint a great picture for Kobe.

Lot's of game winners, even more misses. The realization that "hero ball" kinda sucks and leads to incredibly poor looks and low percentage shots didn't help him, especially since he was never a willing passer late in games (something LeBron has always been). The open look from even just a decent shooter is always a better shot than a heavily contested step back three. Always.

You can't win more with a post, then this post wins at proving that Kobe isn't 'clutch' like people think.

Jeffy25
03-09-2014, 03:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g55ms6JRoBQ

The most artistically creative player I have ever seen in my life. I'll put it to any LeBron lovers that decide to come over here on this video and hate like this, anything LeBron can do Kobe can also. There are things Kobe can do that LBJ can't FACT. Keep lay-uping Lebron.. I don't want to hear that field goal percentage crap. Kobe is a shooting guard who has to take the amount of shots he has taken. Lebron has better teammates which are threats themselves and cause a defense to spread across the court. Lebron gets most of his points from dunking/layups. Shooting however that's a total different story

So Lebron is worse because he can physically get to the basket and take a higher percentage shot?

Do you see what you are typing?

Hawkeye15
03-09-2014, 03:28 AM
Peak wise, or stats wise, LeBron takes a dump on Kobe. Lets see how his legacy finishes.

Jeffy25
03-09-2014, 03:30 AM
Lebron is easily the most interesting character in sports right now because there are so many unappreciated layers to discussions of him. Anyway, I've read all this thread(I'm working a double, it's slow) and I wanted to make a few random points, take for what you want. For the record, I'm a Celtic's fan from Ohio. Don't care for either player really, they're both spoiled ja******s if you pay any attention to them.

In Cleveland, wasn't Mo Williams an all star? Z too? Wasn't Larry Hughes a decent player for awhile? When did Jamison become a bum? He was doing awfully well for the Wizards if my fuzzy mind recalls correctly. I think we forget some of these things when we talk about his Cleveland team. On a side note, the front office was too busy trying to please and cater to him. They ran their personnel decisions by him because they were scared to lose him. He played a role in that teams makeup, an indictment on the organization, not a young kid.

Lebron also is very overrated around here as a jump shooter. Please stop that. He had one good year that severely altered perceptions. Exclude that one year and tell me what happened before and after. Small samples are unreliable. Look at how teams absolutely dare him to shoot in the playoffs and how on more than one occasion he's gone extended stretches being visibly scared to shoot. Now is it better to be a soulless chucker? Fair question. . That being said Lebron has a greater impact on the game because of his physicality and style of play. He doesn't have to "create" like 99% of the NBA, he just puts his head down and goes. That is not a skill. Please read that again. Especially not a basketball skill. If everything were legit, he'd get a lot more charging calls, less foul shots. If you don't see the way he uses that off arm when he's in "aggressive" mode and almost always in critical situations, don't bother reading or responding to this post. Obviously we are seeing in different parts of the spectrum. The same thing with his game winners. How many of them came at the rim after some questionable contact? How many of Kobe's did? Context does matter, even though that word always seem to cause trouble in here. Maybe because context is subjective I guess? Anyway...
Not really fair to compare game winners without more context. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Someone with more interest and inclination than me can. But almost every game I watch in the clutch he's going into Marshawn Lynch Beast Mode going to the basket on the final possession. Someone said they'd rather guard Kobe than Lebron, I've played street and Y ball for longer than most of you have been potty trained and my niche is defense. Trust me I'd rather guard Lebron. He can't bench press you out of the way as someone said, that really is an offensive foul. Nor can he push you or lower his shoulder (and don't think I won't make a big scene in a crowded park about an obviously BS call, much to friend's chagrin I will). His game isn't built on skill, it's built on physical advantages and the way the game is called nowadays.

Yes the east is horrible now. Was Boston even really that good in their day? Does anyone here consider Pierce, Allen or KG actual superstars at that point in their careers? Did anyone notice how often they went through horrible, extended offensive stretches all the time? Heck Indiana now might be one of the strongest teams Lebron's ever faced in the east and I'm not all that impressed with them sometimes.

Yes motivation heart, effort and desire matter. If you really think that idea disqualifies one from having an informed opinion, well I'll just shake my head and move on...

Does anyone notice the horrible turnover numbers these guys put up from time to time?

Basically it's an argument on my end of the meaning of better. Lebron is a once in a generation physical freak. His style of play and the conditions in the league right now fit him perfectly. He is by no means a once in a generation basketball talent. The league is smaller and he's one of the4 biggest players on the court and the most athletic. Shouldn't he grab boards? He's bigger than most guys guarding him, doesn't that help him see passing lanes. For the record, that second point isn't a strong as the first, he is a great passer, just not Bird/Magic great like some might wish. He's nothing special as a rebounder. Basically Lebron is an aluminum bat in an all wood league. Kobe isn't without his warts and faults, he's inefficient, selfish and was definitely a product of right place/right time through his career. But if by skill you mean ability to do creative and difficult things with a basketball (shoot it, dribble it, pass it, rebound it, defend it) it's Kobe hands down. If you mean biggest impact on a game, darn the torpedoes, I mean the reasons, give me Lebron.

All fantastic points.

Tell me, if you had the first overall pick, and could grab one of these two players first overall at the beginning of their careers, and carry them their entire careers and build around them.

Who would you choose?


I do believe you have great points. Bron takes the game over by being able to physically dominate in a way that no one else can. And there are a lot of no-calls with him, that arguably should be.

Kobe has more skill, Lebron physically dominates and creates value by sheer will.

tdg823
03-09-2014, 03:44 AM
Real tough call. Depends on the circumstances at the time as far as how the game is currently being called and played. Depends on the team make up. Depends on league revenues at marketability at the time. This might sound contradictory, but Lebron will impact the game more, Kobe will win you titles.

I'll quit dodging (kinda) if I have another superstar give me Lebron. If he has to carry the team give me Kobe. Lebron is to mentally fragile to carry a team on his own. He needs to feel comfortable and confident to succeed. He'll get you a ton of regular season wins and sportscenter coverage.

Kobe's an *** but he's got a grown man's psyche. It might be more of a long shot for Kobe to carry a team by himself, but if he gets close to the peak Kobe would smack his mom twice to succeed. If you get close enough Kobe could carry you through, Lebron is too dependant on his off arm and a jump shot that is inconsistent at best.

slashsnake
03-09-2014, 03:49 AM
Yeah when 5 out of 10 of your most mpg players leave the team the following year, it causes drastic change, it wasn't just lbj that left. Including an entirely new head coach and staff as well. I mean after Jordan left the bulls for the first time they only lost 5 more games from the previous season. Lbj is good, but not that good.

They lost 2 more games I believe.


But 5 out of 10.

Big Z, but he was losing minutes day by day. He was a 9 minute a game guy in the playoffs a year out of retirement.

Jamario Moon and his 5 points a game. 3 teams and one year later he was out of the league

Shaq. Missed 1/3 of the season and Cleveland was dominant without him. Retired a year after leaving.

Delonte West. Played in 24 games the next season, out of the league a year after that.


None of those guys who left made any impact after they left and all four were either retired or unable to find an NBA team that wanted them. Shaq was the best of the bunch and they were awesome with Lebron when Shaq was out.

Gibson, Varejao, Parker, and Williams still there

In place of those 4, They added Ramon Sessions (better than Mo), Ryan Hollins, Alonzo Gee, and Jamison got into the top 10 in minutes.


No offense, but if they didn't sign sessions and Baron Davis and held on to West, Shaq, Moon and Ilgauskas, I would have put money on them to still have the #1 pick.

tdg823
03-09-2014, 04:01 AM
D. West was a good ballplayer. I believe he'd still be a contributing player in the league if he wasn't a headcase. As for Shaq, I think I agree with you, but let me say that Doc Rivers saw enough in Shaq after that to let Perk go for a project during a title run. And Varejao can ball when he's healthy! A man after my own heart, a big with zero offensive game that plays harder than everyone on the court, rebounds defends, passes good for his size. Just like yours truly! No but seriously, he's good.