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View Full Version : RIGHT NOW: Is John Wall a top 5 PG?



Hulk6
03-03-2014, 03:10 PM
John is currently avg 20pts 9ast and 2stl this season as well as having the the wizards on a 6 game winning streak and 5th in the east. My question is right now, would you have John in your top 5?

Cp3
Curry
Parker
Wall
Lillard

waveycrockett
03-03-2014, 03:16 PM
I would say yes. But Westbrook needs to be on that list.

beyourself
03-03-2014, 03:16 PM
No I can think of better ones.

No order

Paul
Lillard
Curry
Dragic
Westbrook

Hulk6
03-03-2014, 03:19 PM
Westy hasnt been healthy enough this season for me to say hes been better than Wall, when healthy however its a different discussion

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 03:19 PM
Top 5?

I guess so and tell you the truth, it's kind of interesting how Drajic isn't on this list.

waveycrockett
03-03-2014, 03:21 PM
Top 5?

I guess so and tell you the truth, it's kind of interesting how Drajic isn't on this list.

Yea Dragic has to be in the running for possibly the #1 spot if were talking about just this season.

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 03:21 PM
No I can think of better ones.

No order

Paul
Lillard
Curry
Dragic
Westbrook


Dragic

20.6/3.5/6.2/1.4/0.3

vs

Wall

20.0/4.2/8.7/2.0/0.5

Westbrook doesn't belong on this list. Y'all need to chill.

beyourself
03-03-2014, 03:23 PM
Dragic

20.6/3.5/6.2/1.4/0.3

vs

Wall

20.0/4.2/8.7/2.0/0.5

Westbrook doesn't belong on this list. Y'all need to chill.

Dragic is shooting over 50%. He owns this comparison.

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 03:25 PM
Yea Dragic has to be in the running for possibly the #1 spot if were talking about just this season.

I think him or Wall are pretty similar. But Wall is the better defender, Dragic is the better shooter.

waveycrockett
03-03-2014, 03:25 PM
Dragic is shooting over 50%. He owns this comparison.

You also have to factor in team success. Dragic has been unbelievable. Alot of what he does doesn't show up in the box score.

waveycrockett
03-03-2014, 03:26 PM
I think him or Wall are pretty similar. But Wall is the better defender, Dragic is the better shooter.

I dont think they are similar at all. Wall is a freak while Dragic is an assassin. They are both very exciting to watch tho.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2014, 03:27 PM
no, not even close. he will get there eventually but for now there are quite a few i'd rather have than Wall.

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 03:27 PM
Dragic is shooting over 50%. He owns this comparison.

I know. But they produce the same numbers. If you're talking offensively only, then yes Dragic is better in certain areas, iso, spot ups.

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 03:29 PM
I dont think they are similar at all. Wall is a freak while Dragic is an assassin. They are both very exciting to watch tho.

I mean in numbers not in playing style. Wall is an athletic freak, Dragic is a sniper and a real good finisher.

beyourself
03-03-2014, 03:30 PM
no, not even close. he will get there eventually but for now there are quite a few i'd rather have than Wall.

Really? Not saying you are wrong, but Wall doesn't seem to show much progress. His efficiency is low. He relies too much on his speed and quickness. I don't see it. Maybe he could become like Tony Parker and develop a great mid range though.

Hulk6
03-03-2014, 03:31 PM
no, not even close. he will get there eventually but for now there are quite a few i'd rather have than Wall.

RIGHT NOW, people really need the op

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 03:32 PM
no, not even close. he will get there eventually but for now there are quite a few i'd rather have than Wall.

Where would you put someone like Kemba?

waveycrockett
03-03-2014, 03:33 PM
Where would you put someone like Kemba?

Fringe top-10

TheNumber37
03-03-2014, 03:33 PM
Wall over Dragic.

This season with Rose, Westbrook, Rondo, Jrue All being out, he is for sure top 5.

KnicksorBust
03-03-2014, 03:34 PM
Not basing off stats but just on pure skill:

#1. Chris Paul
#2. Steph Curry
#3. Tony Parker
#4. Kyrie Irving
#5. Russell Westbrook

Wall is right in that 4-8 range for me but for now give me Kyrie/Westy and probably Mike Conley.

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 03:35 PM
Fringe top-10

Not even 6?

so who you got 6, 7, 8, 9

SPURSFAN1
03-03-2014, 03:39 PM
Tony parker has more than a midrange game. He's a top finisher in the paint. A lot of "elite" point guards don't even have one. If he isn't in anyone's top 5, I don't think you know much basketball iq.

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 03:57 PM
My top 10 would go like this, based on offense alone

1. Steph Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. Tony Parker
4. Goran Drajic
5. John Wall
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Kemba Walker
8. Russel Westbrook
9. Kyle Lowry
10. Jeff Teague

That's my top 10 this season offensively. Now discuss.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2014, 04:11 PM
Really? Not saying you are wrong, but Wall doesn't seem to show much progress. His efficiency is low. He relies too much on his speed and quickness. I don't see it. Maybe he could become like Tony Parker and develop a great mid range though.

i think there is a good chance he gets there if he becomes a better offensive player than he is now.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2014, 04:12 PM
RIGHT NOW, people really need the op

hey OP, what part of no not even close did you find confusing?

Jamiecballer
03-03-2014, 04:14 PM
Where would you put someone like Kemba?

i don't have time to really think through all the different PG's but definitely not very high.

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 04:18 PM
i don't have time to really think through all the different PG's but definitely not very high.

no love for Kemba? damn.

tredigs
03-03-2014, 05:05 PM
no love for Kemba? damn.

For a chucker and bottom tier playmaker who runs one of the worst offensive teams in the league... why would there be? You honestly think he's a fringe top 5 PG talent with everybody out there?

jerellh528
03-03-2014, 05:10 PM
Not basing off stats but just on pure skill:

#1. Chris Paul
#2. Steph Curry
#3. Tony Parker
#4. Kyrie Irving
#5. Russell Westbrook

Wall is right in that 4-8 range for me but for now give me Kyrie/Westy

Agree

EAGLES3658
03-03-2014, 05:27 PM
Wall is top 5 and Wall is better than Dragic. Wall is such a great creator, he makes other guys around him so much better. He is on a level that Dragic is not on.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2014, 05:32 PM
Wall is top 5 and Wall is better than Dragic. Wall is such a great creator, he makes other guys around him so much better. He is on a level that Dragic is not on.

there is really no evidence of that whatsoever.

Guppyfighter
03-03-2014, 05:34 PM
Dragic doesn't make players around him better? What world do Wall fans live in.

EAGLES3658
03-03-2014, 05:44 PM
Lol Dragic is the flavor of the week right now. Everyone is on his dick.

KniCks4LiFe
03-03-2014, 05:51 PM
For a chucker and bottom tier playmaker who runs one of the worst offensive teams in the league... why would there be? You honestly think he's a fringe top 5 PG talent with everybody out there?

I have him at number 7. I mean 15 shots per game but the results are 18/4/5 at 40% shooting. It's not great, but not horrendous.

Kaner
03-03-2014, 06:23 PM
He has an argument but i think right now
CP3
Curry
Dragic
Westbrook
Parker

An argument can be made for probably 6-7 guys in that 4-10 range with Wall being somewhere in there

Red_Pill
03-03-2014, 06:24 PM
My top 10 would go like this, based on offense alone

1. Steph Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. Tony Parker
4. Goran Drajic
5. John Wall
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Kemba Walker
8. Russel Westbrook
9. Kyle Lowry
10. Jeff Teague

That's my top 10 this season offensively. Now discuss.

This is a terrible list. :facepalm:

Westbrook is still top 5. Dude has been injured and still put up similar numbers to Dragic and Wall, who are HEALTHY. He's easily still top 5. Lowry deserves to be higher, Walker, lower.

tredigs
03-03-2014, 06:52 PM
I have him at number 7. I mean 15 shots per game but the results are 18/4/5 at 40% shooting. It's not great, but not horrendous.

I mean, it's very middling. There are plenty of PGs I'd take over him if I'm building a team today for the playoffs.

Paul/Curry/Westbrook/Dragic/Wall/Lillard/Lowry/Irving/Conley/Thomas/Rondo/Lawson/Parker off the top of my head.

He's in the Jennings/Teague group below those guys imo. So, no higher than top 15.

Shortys4711
03-03-2014, 06:53 PM
Wall is top 5 and Wall is better than Dragic. Wall is such a great creator, he makes other guys around him so much better. He is on a level that Dragic is not on.

LOL, You couldnt be more wrong, You could try but you would fail.

treglip
03-03-2014, 07:27 PM
I would probably say top 8?

curry
lillard
paul
westbrook
parker
irving
wall
dragic
lowry
isaiah thomas

I think if we are talking this year, thomas has played pretty well to be in that 9-12 range?
20.5/ 6.4/ 2.7

EAGLES3658
03-03-2014, 09:51 PM
LOL, You couldnt be more wrong, You could try but you would fail.
LOL, yes I know, because Dragic is a lock to be in the HOF on PSD.

WARRIORS@GR
03-03-2014, 10:07 PM
My top 10 would go like this, based on offense alone

1. Steph Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. Tony Parker
4. Goran Drajic
5. John Wall
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Kemba Walker
8. Russel Westbrook
9. Kyle Lowry
10. Jeff Teague

That's my top 10 this season offensively. Now discuss.
Terrible list.

Duncan = Donkey
03-03-2014, 10:13 PM
LOL at anyone who think Wall is better than Dragic this year.

Dragic - 34.6 MPG / 20.6 PPG / 6.2 APG / 3.5 RPG / 51% FG / 41% 3PT / 76% FT / 62% TS / 57% eFG / 22.79 PER / WS - 8.1 / WS-48 .204

Wall - 37.0 MPG / 20.0 PPG / 8.7 APG / 4.3 RPG / 43% FG / 33% 3PT / 83% FT / 20.48 PER / 52% TS / 47% eFG / WS - 6.4 / WS-48 .141

Not even close. The disrespect continues for the Dragon.

lol, please
03-03-2014, 10:56 PM
John is currently avg 20pts 9ast and 2stl this season as well as having the the wizards on a 6 game winning streak and 5th in the east. My question is right now, would you have John in your top 5?

Cp3
Curry
Parker
Wall
Lillardwithout question

Jamiecballer
03-03-2014, 10:58 PM
without question

huh? just a minute ago you said the same thing in my thread about retiring Carter's jersey, and i was pumped to have you in my corner. now i'm not so sure.

what is John Wall top 5 at, beside usage? don't use raw totals because obviously those will correlate greatly to his usage. i mean more like, abilities. or strengths.

lol, please
03-03-2014, 11:10 PM
without question

huh? just a minute ago you said the same thing in my thread about retiring Carter's jersey, and i was pumped to have you in my corner. now i'm not so sure.

what is John Wall top 5 at, beside usage? don't use raw totals because obviously those will correlate greatly to his usage. i mean more like, abilities. or strengths.you mean immeasurables? Athleticism and potential.

Duncan = Donkey
03-03-2014, 11:30 PM
I think Wall is top 5 in sportscenter?

Guppyfighter
03-04-2014, 12:36 AM
I think Wall is top 5 in sportscenter?

Best summary

FlashBolt
03-04-2014, 12:40 AM
No.

1) CP
2) Curry
3) Irving
4) Westbrook
5) Parker
6) Dragic

I would put Rondo above him but time will tell.

sunsfan88
03-04-2014, 02:39 AM
Wall is top 5 and Wall is better than Dragic. Wall is such a great creator, he makes other guys around him so much better. He is on a level that Dragic is not on.
Dragic doesn't make others around him better? Are you joking.

The Suns with Dragic BLEW OUT THE CLIPPERS AND PACERS TWICE...ON THE ROAD. The Suns without Dragic got BLOWN OUT BY THE UTAH JAZZ.

Dragic is the reason that Plumlee and Green are contributors on a top 10 team in the NBA. Both Plumlee and Green were takin turns warming the bench last season in Indiana and now Dragic has turned them into relevant players.

If Beal played with Dragic, Beal would be top 20 in scoring.

I like Wall, I really do. He's is a top 5 PG right now for the season, I got:

Curry
Dragic
CP3
Wall
Lowry

CP3 missed time so he's docked for that. Westbrook and Parker missed too much time so they ain't even eligible.

Jeffy25
03-04-2014, 02:40 AM
Why no Dragic?

mrblisterdundee
03-04-2014, 02:50 AM
1. Chris Paul
2. Stephen Curry
3. Russell Westbrook
4. John Wall
5. Kyrie Irving

sunsfan88
03-04-2014, 03:00 AM
How are people putting Kyrie Irving over Dragic? Dragic averages as many points, assists and rebounds as Irving. Dragic is also a better defender than Irving and has better PER than him.

And Dragic has also led his team to wins where as Kyrie and the Cavs are still at the bottom of the freaking East.

Oh and did I mention that Dragic has WAY better shooting %s than Kyrie?

Anyone who puts Kyrie over Dragic relies on ESPN analysts and SportsCenter highlights for all their basketball knowledge.

KnicksorBust
03-04-2014, 04:11 PM
How are people putting Kyrie Irving over Dragic? Dragic averages as many points, assists and rebounds as Irving. Dragic is also a better defender than Irving and has better PER than him.

And Dragic has also led his team to wins where as Kyrie and the Cavs are still at the bottom of the freaking East.

Oh and did I mention that Dragic has WAY better shooting %s than Kyrie?

Anyone who puts Kyrie over Dragic relies on ESPN analysts and SportsCenter highlights for all their basketball knowledge.

It's actually a great debate. Someone should start a poll. I'd take Kyrie Irving.

MonroeFAN
03-04-2014, 05:33 PM
Dragic mad underrated here.

Duncan = Donkey
03-05-2014, 02:48 AM
Dragic mad underrated here.

If Dragic was Black and American, he wouldn't be underrated. Fact.

mdm692
03-05-2014, 04:02 AM
If Dragic was Black and American, he wouldn't be underrated. Fact.
I think it's a combination of the market, lack of "star name" and he's not dunking on people or shooting non stop until his hand hurts. He is a one man fast break and is starting to master the art of pick-n-roll/pop. He just needs a star big man to help him with this, I'm looking at you Kevin Love.

jerellh528
03-05-2014, 04:15 AM
If Dragic was Black and American, he wouldn't be underrated. Fact.

I don't agree with this at all, in fact I think people love to overrate white player. I know I'm going to get **** for this but, an example is dirk.

b@llhog24
03-05-2014, 04:36 AM
It's actually a great debate. Someone should start a poll. I'd take Kyrie Irving.

To start a franchise with? Sure I'm there with you. But Dragic has played better than Irving this season.


I don't agree with this at all, in fact I think people love to overrate white player. I know I'm going to get **** for this but, an example is dirk.

I do think that people love to overrate the minorities but Dirk is hella underrated to me.

Swashcuff
03-05-2014, 11:29 AM
If Dragic was Black and American, he wouldn't be underrated. Fact.

Isn't this about the STUPIDEST thing echoed in this entire thread. Pau and Dirk aren't black nor American and they weren't underrated, Steve Nash is the same when you have Isaiah Thomas who IS black and is American and is essentially playing just as well as Damian Lillard this season but no one has him in their top 10 while damn near everyone has Lillard in their top 5. Kyle Lowry is one of the better PGs in the league and is black and American his name has been mentioned ONCE in this thread. GTFO with that race agenda.

Snapshot
03-05-2014, 11:31 AM
lol def not..

CP3
Curry
Parker
Dragic
Lillard
Irving
Russ

^all better than him, and when Rose and Rondo bounce back he falls even further down the list.

Swashcuff
03-05-2014, 11:37 AM
huh? just a minute ago you said the same thing in my thread about retiring Carter's jersey, and i was pumped to have you in my corner. now i'm not so sure.

what is John Wall top 5 at, beside usage? don't use raw totals because obviously those will correlate greatly to his usage. i mean more like, abilities. or strengths.

You are QUICKLY turning into another guppy. It seems as if all your "arguments" on narrow-mindedly based on stats and you can't seem to formulate an opinion on an individual's ability.

But hey if you want stats here are some.

John Wall leads the NBA in 3FG assists and 3FG assists per game, is 4th in AST%, 6th in passing rating, 6th in PER%, 3rd in points accounted for (points+assists), 3rd in % of teams points accounted for, 4th in Simple Rating, 2nd in Net On/Off, 9th in RAPM, (guys like Mills, Hill and Rio ahead of him) 8th in win produced (again guys like George Hill and Rubio ahead of him) and he's also arguably a top 10 defensive PG in the NBA.

Not because he isn't an efficient scorer doesn't mean he isn't a valuable and important one, but with your narrow minded look at his game that's all you can essentially see.

Knick_Fever
03-05-2014, 11:58 AM
John is currently avg 20pts 9ast and 2stl this season as well as having the the wizards on a 6 game winning streak and 5th in the east. My question is right now, would you have John in your top 5?

Cp3
Curry
Parker
Wall
Lillard

Without a doubt. He's put that team on his back while making his teammates better. He's been consistent and a force down the stretch, and most of all, healthy. Im a Knicks fan but live in the DMV area and been to a few of open practices/games, where I was just a couple of rows behind courtside and was blown away at how much faster this guy really is in person. His handles are pristine and has probably the best court vision in all the NBA outside of CP.

-- CP
-- Westbrook
-- Wall
-- Curry
-- Dragic

Ebbs
03-05-2014, 12:11 PM
If you want to tug yourself off as a Wall fan fine. But injuries or not give me Westbrook.

IKnowHoops
03-05-2014, 12:19 PM
Dragic

20.6/3.5/6.2/1.4/0.3

vs

Wall

20.0/4.2/8.7/2.0/0.5

Westbrook doesn't belong on this list. Y'all need to chill.

No disrespect to Dragic, but I take Wall 7 days a week

IKnowHoops
03-05-2014, 12:24 PM
How are people putting Kyrie Irving over Dragic? Dragic averages as many points, assists and rebounds as Irving. Dragic is also a better defender than Irving and has better PER than him.

And Dragic has also led his team to wins where as Kyrie and the Cavs are still at the bottom of the freaking East.

Oh and did I mention that Dragic has WAY better shooting %s than Kyrie?

Anyone who puts Kyrie over Dragic relies on ESPN analysts and SportsCenter highlights for all their basketball knowledge.

No disrespect to Dragic, but I'd take Kyrie seven days a week and thrice on Sunday.

Sadds The Gr8
03-05-2014, 01:56 PM
Wall isn't better than Dragic or Westbrook. Kyrie isn't either.

Jamiecballer
03-05-2014, 05:27 PM
You are QUICKLY turning into another guppy. It seems as if all your "arguments" on narrow-mindedly based on stats and you can't seem to formulate an opinion on an individual's ability.

But hey if you want stats here are some.

John Wall leads the NBA in 3FG assists and 3FG assists per game, is 4th in AST%, 6th in passing rating, 6th in PER%, 3rd in points accounted for (points+assists), 3rd in % of teams points accounted for, 4th in Simple Rating, 2nd in Net On/Off, 9th in RAPM, (guys like Mills, Hill and Rio ahead of him) 8th in win produced (again guys like George Hill and Rubio ahead of him) and he's also arguably a top 10 defensive PG in the NBA.

Not because he isn't an efficient scorer doesn't mean he isn't a valuable and important one, but with your narrow minded look at his game that's all you can essentially see.

I have an appreciation for what a player can do just as anyone else does. but the question was asked whether he was top 5 and in a deep field of PG's, the answer is no.

Swashcuff
03-05-2014, 06:19 PM
I have an appreciation for what a player can do just as anyone else does. but the question was asked whether he was top 5 and in a deep field of PG's, the answer is no.

You said "what was John Wall top 5 in" making the assumption that the only thing he ranked in the top 5 in was USG% a measurable statistic. I essentially pointed out to you in the only language you seem to understand that John Wall is indeed one of the better statistical PGs in the league (hell I even left out spg where he's 3rd and STL% where he's 5th) even with his ordinary scoring efficiency.

Measuring what a player can do by the use of statistics that you use is also inaccurate.

IKnowHoops
03-05-2014, 07:46 PM
I think Dragic does a lot of his damage because teams don't see him coming/don't respect him. Kind of like how Jeremy Lin was doing it when he torched Kobe and the lakers for near 40. But just like Lin, when he had to play the Heat and they treated him like a superstar and went after him, like the do Wall and Kyrie, he shrank, looked scared, and couldn't really do anything. Dragic IMO is a good player that is really taking advantage of his baby face and non threatening look. He's been in the league for a while and he's never done anything. I still don't think players take him all that serious...they should, but they don't and he will do you if you show him your back.

Swashcuff
03-05-2014, 07:50 PM
I think Dragic does a lot of his damage because teams don't see him coming/don't respect him. Kind of like how Jeremy Lin was doing it last year when he torched Kobe and the lakers for near 40. But just like Lin, when he had to play the Heat and they treated him like a superstar and went after him, like the do Wall and Kyrie, he shrank, looked scared, and couldn't really do anything. Dragic IMO is a good player that is really taking advantage of his baby face and non threatening look. He's been in the league for a while and he's never done anything. I still don't think players take him all that serious...they should, but they don't and he will do you if you show him your back.

That would make sense if he was a rookie who did this in say his first 30 or so games but he isn't. He's been in the league for a minute and has developed his overall game tremendously and its showing this year. I can tell by this statement however that you haven't watched much of the Suns this season. Opposing teams gameplan for Dragic every single night, its been that way for two years now and now as he's the focal point of his team's offense he's seeing more doubles than ever before in his career. He's responding to them pretty well.

Maybe if you watched him play you'd see that he is indeed very respected but opposing coaches/players.

IKnowHoops
03-05-2014, 08:01 PM
That would make sense if he was a rookie who did this in say his first 30 or so games but he isn't. He's been in the league for a minute and has developed his overall game tremendously and its showing this year. I can tell by this statement however that you haven't watched much of the Suns this season. Opposing teams gameplan for Dragic every single night, its been that way for two years now and now as he's the focal point of his team's offense he's seeing more doubles than ever before in his career. He's responding to them pretty well.

Maybe if you watched him play you'd see that he is indeed very respected but opposing coaches/players.

Didn't want to come off that harsh on him, but when Bledsoe was healthy, he was outplaying Dragic. And the fact that he's been in the league this long is why I feel people don't see him coming. He's gone six years as a journeyman. Were you expecting this from Dragic this year? Didn't think so. I'm sure nobody playing against him is or was either. If he was getting all this respect than he would of been in the all star game as a backup. I was watching him when he played for the suns long ago behind nash and he was below average at best and got let go/traded.

Swashcuff
03-05-2014, 08:16 PM
Didn't want to come off that harsh on him, but when Bledsoe was healthy, he was outplaying Dragic. And the fact that he's been in the league this long is why I feel people don't see him coming. He's gone six years as a journeyman. Were you expecting this from Dragic this year? Didn't think so. I'm sure nobody playing against him is or was either. If he was getting all this respect than he would of been in the all star game as a backup. I was watching him when he played for the suns long ago behind nash and he was below average at best and got let go/traded.

Both ways? Sure offensively not so much. Also who cares what he did when he played with Bled look at what he's done without him, look at what the Suns have been able to accomplish without him.

I wasn't expecting him to make such a huge leap especially in his shooting but I absolutely expected him to be a top 10 PG and fringe all star in the NBA. He's been hinting at becoming such a player for quite a few years now this season he's finally put it together.

Instead of saying "I'm sure" LOOK at the Suns play, read game previews and recaps and formulate an informed opinion yourself. I guarantee you'd change that I'm sure.

Statistically speaking as well if he caught teams sleeping his numbers would drop in the 2nd half of the season or rather the 2nd, 3rd and 4th times he's played against said teams since they'd have a better idea of how to gameplan for him and contain him. Well as the season has gone on his production hasn't dropped its gotten better and better. All the facts point to that line of thinking being wrong.

NBA_Starter
03-05-2014, 08:30 PM
Curry
Wall
Parker
Dragić
Lowry

So yes...

Jamiecballer
03-05-2014, 09:13 PM
You said "what was John Wall top 5 in" making the assumption that the only thing he ranked in the top 5 in was USG% a measurable statistic. I essentially pointed out to you in the only language you seem to understand that John Wall is indeed one of the better statistical PGs in the league (hell I even left out spg where he's 3rd and STL% where he's 5th) even with his ordinary scoring efficiency.
no. the only assumption here was made by you. i asked for his opinion, that's it. i know he's a pretty good player with the potential to be a very good player in the near future.

Measuring what a player can do by the use of statistics that you use is also inaccurate.
who said anything about using "my stats" to measure what a player can do? all i was saying is that i can appreciate incredible talent without falling into the trap of automatically assuming that it makes someone valuable.

but what exactly is your point here anyways? i don't believe he is a top 5 point guard, not yet. that doesn't mean we aren't in agreement that he is one of the better point guards in the league. i just happen to hold really high usage point guards to a high standard of efficiency because i don't believe it is a formula for winning basketball otherwise.

hotdalton18
03-05-2014, 09:15 PM
Dragic

20.6/3.5/6.2/1.4/0.3

vs

Wall

20.0/4.2/8.7/2.0/0.5

Westbrook doesn't belong on this list. Y'all need to chill.

Dragic is shooting over 50%. He owns this comparison.




2 more assists for a pg an a way better defender

Chill

NBA_Starter
03-05-2014, 09:36 PM
Yeah, I don't know about owns.

Swashcuff
03-05-2014, 09:54 PM
no. the only assumption here was made by you. i asked for his opinion, that's it. i know he's a pretty good player with the potential to be a very good player in the near future.

who said anything about using "my stats" to measure what a player can do? all i was saying is that i can appreciate incredible talent without falling into the trap of automatically assuming that it makes someone valuable.

but what exactly is your point here anyways? i don't believe he is a top 5 point guard, not yet. that doesn't mean we aren't in agreement that he is one of the better point guards in the league. i just happen to hold really high usage point guards to a high standard of efficiency because i don't believe it is a formula for winning basketball otherwise.

My point is that using USG%/efficiency to gauge an individual's value in a team sport without taking a holistic view at that player's production, value and importance to his team leaves out much more than you realize. Every team, system and player is different. Sure another player would be able to score more efficiently than Wall but how many can pass better and more efficiently than he does at the same time while playing plus D and being undoubtedly being his team's best player?

I'm not entirely sure if I have John in my top 5 either but your whole "what is John Wall top 5 at, beside usage?" statement rubbed me the wrong way. It shows the narrow minded thinking of those who put too much value into a certain stat(s) with first getting a better understanding of the bigger picture.

Jamiecballer
03-05-2014, 10:00 PM
My point is that using USG%/efficiency to gauge an individual's value in a team sport without taking a holistic view at that player's production, value and importance to his team leaves out much more than you realize. Every team, system and player is different. Sure another player would be able to score more efficiently than Wall but how many can pass better and more efficiently than he does at the same time while playing plus D and being undoubtedly being his team's best player?

I'm not entirely sure if I have John in my top 5 either but your whole "what is John Wall top 5 at, beside usage?" statement rubbed me the wrong way. It shows the narrow minded thinking of those who put too much value into a certain stat(s) with first getting a better understanding of the bigger picture.
again, it was just an honest question. he's at a stage in his career where he is accumulating big stats in part due to really high usage. nothing wrong with pointing that out.

Duncan = Donkey
03-05-2014, 10:10 PM
I don't agree with this at all, in fact I think people love to overrate white player. I know I'm going to get **** for this but, an example is dirk.

Disagree, Look at Love right now. Best PF in the game but people call him empty stats and call him overrated.
Dont get the Dirk example, Dude has the numbers and a championship. Dont see how he is overated.

Duncan = Donkey
03-05-2014, 10:20 PM
Isn't this about the STUPIDEST thing echoed in this entire thread. Pau and Dirk aren't black nor American and they weren't underrated, Steve Nash is the same when you have Isaiah Thomas who IS black and is American and is essentially playing just as well as Damian Lillard this season but no one has him in their top 10 while damn near everyone has Lillard in their top 5. Kyle Lowry is one of the better PGs in the league and is black and American his name has been mentioned ONCE in this thread. GTFO with that race agenda.

Those 3 guys have always had an overated Tag to them in the time ive been on message boards. Nash was an overrated system player who couldnt play defense, Dirk was a soff 7 footer who wouldnt bang inside, couldnt rebound, couldnt play defense and was soft. Gasol only started to get proper regocnition once he left Memphis and even now is ridlculed as a player.

No one mentions Thomas because the Kings suck and have been irrelevant for 10 years.
Lowry is not even close to being a top 5 PG so its expected he doesn't get mentioned in here.

No race agenda here.

Swashcuff
03-05-2014, 10:36 PM
Those 3 guys have always had an overated Tag to them in the time ive been on message boards. Nash was an overrated system player who couldnt play defense, Dirk was a soff 7 footer who wouldnt bang inside, couldnt rebound, couldnt play defense and was soft. Gasol only started to get proper regocnition once he left Memphis and even now is ridlculed as a player.

Of the forums I've been a part of that couldn't be more wrong. Nash was heralded as the best shooter of all time (50,40,90) Dirk was tagged as big who couldn't play D but was always seen as a winner and the greatest European of all time and Pau well I remember him getting tones of praises for leading his Grizzlies teams to the post season in a stacked West and little help.

There are black Americans who get the same type of ridicule though Melo, John Wall, Rajon Rondo some recent examples.


No one mentions Thomas because the Kings suck and have been irrelevant for 10 years.

But he's black and American. If we're going by your point then that should count for something.


Lowry is not even close to being a top 5 PG so its expected he doesn't get mentioned in here.

Another black American being EXTREMELY underrated. He's EASILY a top 3-5 defensive PG (only guys I can buy over him are CP3, Beverly and Bled) he's a better passer, shooter, rebounder and defender this season than guys like Tony Parker and Kyrie Irving. In terms of WS/48 he's tied for 3rd with Dragic (Goran is percentage points ahead of him) among PGs and ranks pretty favourably in RAPM and WP. If you say one of the best all round PGs in the league isn't close to being top 5 then you're severely underrating him and he's actually not white or non-American.

Jamiecballer
03-05-2014, 10:47 PM
How does somebody who is a fan of Dragic not see how good Lowry has been as well?

They are both underappreciated for similar reasons - they are both superbly productive despite not dominating the ball offensively.

Duncan = Donkey
03-05-2014, 11:08 PM
How does somebody who is a fan of Dragic not see how good Lowry has been as well?

They are both underappreciated for similar reasons - they are both superbly productive despite not dominating the ball offensively.

He is not a top 5 PG is all im saying. Not saying im not a fan.

Jamiecballer
03-05-2014, 11:25 PM
He is not a top 5 PG is all im saying. Not saying im not a fan.

Well its pretty hard IMO to make a case for Dragic this season but exclude Lowry considering both sides of the ball.

Duncan = Donkey
03-06-2014, 01:36 AM
Well its pretty hard IMO to make a case for Dragic this season but exclude Lowry considering both sides of the ball.

Dragic is clearly having a better season IMO, so its not hard for me at all to have him above Lowry

sunsfan88
03-06-2014, 02:23 AM
It's actually a great debate. Someone should start a poll. I'd take Kyrie Irving.

Probably cause all you care about is the crossovers that Uncle Drew puts on in the Pepsi commercials and not players who lead their team to wins and put up better numbers.

Jamiecballer
03-06-2014, 05:42 AM
Dragic is clearly having a better season IMO, so its not hard for me at all to have him above Lowry

I can't see it. Although I sense we both might have a bias here.

JasonJohnHorn
03-06-2014, 06:52 AM
He's top five in assists per game.
Top five total assists (first actually).
Top five among point guards in scoring.
Top five in steals per game.
Top five in assist percentage.
Top five among PG in free throws made.

Statistically, there is certainly a case. I don't think anybody who makes that argument is crazy. I have been very critical of Wall in the past myself due to his FG%, but he's made improvements. His TS% is over .500, but I would still like to see his FG% to be OVER .450 at the very least.

He's getting there.

Swashcuff
03-06-2014, 08:14 AM
I can't see it. Although I sense we both might have a bias here.

I have no bias and I can't see it either. What Lowry does defensively and as a playmaker more than makes up for the advantage Goran has as a scorer IMO.

THE MTL
03-06-2014, 09:11 AM
Maybe top 5 this season; but he has the ability to be top 3 on a consistent basis. He has all the tools. He can score, set up teammates, leadership, and his defense is decent.

Jamiecballer
03-06-2014, 10:30 AM
I have no bias and I can't see it either. What Lowry does defensively and as a playmaker more than makes up for the advantage Goran has as a scorer IMO.

if i was making a shortlist of the top 3 pg's in the game this season they might both be on it.

sunsfan88
03-07-2014, 02:55 AM
Lowry and Dragic are both having great years. Difference is that Lowry has prior history for fighting with his coach and for his work ethic and only giving effort in contract seasons.

Is that still the same? Is Lowry gonna regress once he gets paid?