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View Full Version : Does Kevin Love carry the biggest burden in the league?



Chronz
02-27-2014, 05:46 PM
Especially since his only legitimate partner (Pek) went down. For the month of February hes averaging 34.0 points, 14.1 rebounds

Thats more points than the leagues leading scorer, more rebounds than the leagues leading rebounder all while making more 3's than most of the league so hes spacing the floor for his team as well.

Its no wonder why the team is absolutely dreadful when hes not on the floor. Who else means this much to his franchise?

Heediot
02-27-2014, 05:47 PM
They should trade Pekovic for a defensive big man.

whyumadbro!
02-27-2014, 05:48 PM
Especially since his only legitimate partner (Pek) went down. For the month of February hes averaging 34.0 points, 14.1 rebounds

Thats more points than the leagues leading scorer, more rebounds than the leagues leading rebounder all while making more 3's than most of the league so hes spacing the floor for his team as well.

Its no wonder why the team is absolutely dreadful when hes not on the floor. Who else means this much to his franchise?

I had no idea...wow.

Goose17
02-27-2014, 05:51 PM
Meh, I feel like his stats, impressive as they are, have been inflated due to him being the first, second and third option for that team.

I don't think he carries the biggest burden, because honestly, nobody expects him to win anything. Guys like Lebron, Durant, CP3 etc have a bigger burden because they're under the microscope being analysed and told "you need to win now".

Love definitely is in one of the worst situations that a player of his caliber could be in though. Minny should have traded him imo, they could have gotten fair value (they won't next year).

JEDean89
02-27-2014, 05:54 PM
^^^ love is definitely not overrated, but no player in this league can win without a supporting cast. who is the next best player on that team? kevin martin?

he and melo are carrying the biggest burdens for their respective teams, both are having career years and it speaks more to how bad the wolves and knicks are than anything else. i don't think if you replace Love with Lebron that they are a playoff team.

TrueFan420
02-27-2014, 05:55 PM
Meh, I feel like his stats, impressive as they are, have been inflated due to him being the first, second and third option for that team.

I don't think he carries the biggest burden, because honestly, nobody expects him to win anything. Guys like Lebron, Durant, CP3 etc have a bigger burden because they're under the microscope being analysed and told "you need to win now".

Love definitely is in one of the worst situations that a player of his caliber could be in though. Minny should have traded him imo, they could have gotten fair value (they won't next year).

You never get fair value when you trade someone as good as he is.

Jamiecballer
02-27-2014, 05:56 PM
yesh. Minnesota should be relocated. first Garnett and now Love. it's just wrong.

Goose17
02-27-2014, 05:59 PM
^^^ love is definitely not overrated

Never said he was.


no player in this league can win without a supporting cast.

His supporting cast isn't bad enough that he shouldn't be winning but it's bad enough to keep them out of the playoffs in the West, there's a difference.


who is the next best player on that team? kevin martin?


In terms of scoring? In general I would say it's Rubio by a wide margin. In terms of scoring though it's probably Martin.



he and melo are carrying the biggest burdens for their respective teams, both are having career years and it speaks more to how bad the wolves and knicks are than anything else.

Melo IS overrated. Unlike Love.



i don't think if you replace Love with Lebron that they are a playoff team.

You could put Lebron or KD on a middle school basketball team and they would make the NBA playoffs.

Goose17
02-27-2014, 06:00 PM
You never get fair value when you trade someone as good as he is.

I think they could have this year.

And Denver did, they actually ended up with the better end of that deal. Ditching Melo was a great move.

TrueFan420
02-27-2014, 06:06 PM
I think they could have this year.

And Denver did, they actually ended up with the better end of that deal. Ditching Melo was a great move.

Like what example please

And Denver was the Exception to the rule and one could argue it only looks like that cause the Knicks incompetent front office couldn't build a team around him.

Goose17
02-27-2014, 06:09 PM
Like what example please

And Denver was the Exception to the rule and one could argue it only looks like that cause the Knicks incompetent front office couldn't build a team around him.

I gave you an example and you just disregard it as an exception? LOL.

I think with the way Love was playing and the amount of teams that have stashed picks and young talent, they could have gotten a deal done that was relatively fair.

Next year they won't get anything close to fair, they'll get butt ****ed by whoever they trade with. Bank on it.

lamzoka
02-27-2014, 06:10 PM
Never said he was.



His supporting cast isn't bad enough that he shouldn't be winning but it's bad enough to keep them out of the playoffs in the West, there's a difference.



In terms of scoring? In general I would say it's Rubio by a wide margin. In terms of scoring though it's probably Martin.



Melo IS overrated. Unlike Love.




You could put Lebron or KD on a middle school basketball team and they would make the NBA playoffs.


I'm sorry, but you talk to much.




Or write to much....

beyourself
02-27-2014, 06:12 PM
LeBron has a pretty big burden. People expect him to win. He must win since he sold out to a superteam.

Durant is going to start feeling the heat soon. Not yet, but if they don't win within the next 2-3 years he will feel the heat real strong. Simply because he's become so incredibly good.

TrueFan420
02-27-2014, 06:12 PM
I gave you an example and you just disregard it as an exception? LOL.

I think with the way Love was playing and the amount of teams that have stashed picks and young talent, they could have gotten a deal done that was relatively fair.

Next year they won't get anything close to fair, they'll get butt ****ed by whoever they trade with. Bank on it.
I meant like an example of an offer they could have recieved

Goose17
02-27-2014, 06:16 PM
I'm sorry, but you talk to much.




Or write to much....

LOL... what is up with Knick fans tonight?

I write too much? You should stick to twitter buddy.

Goose17
02-27-2014, 06:18 PM
I meant like an example of an offer they could have recieved

I don't know, I'm not a GM. But both Boston and Phoenix had a stash of first round picks, young players, big expiring contracts and veterans that they were shopping. Something definitely could have been done there. They could have gotten something similar to what Denver got for Melo.

TheNumber37
02-27-2014, 06:18 PM
MELO is because Love's team is still better than Anthony...

Love on the Knicks as is... Maybe the same results... Melo on the Wolves with Rubio, Pek and adelman... Better than .500

Hawkeye15
02-27-2014, 06:19 PM
I think they could have this year.

And Denver did, they actually ended up with the better end of that deal. Ditching Melo was a great move.

We will never get fair value for Love. Wouldn't have gotten it the day he signed his extension. Trading star players at age 25, you lose that deal everytime. The only reason you do it is to get 50 cents on the dollar for a player who is leaving anyways.

Hawkeye15
02-27-2014, 06:21 PM
I think he is carrying the biggest burden this season. However, he has played poorly in close games down the stretch, something he wasn't doing 2 years ago. The whole team is. Our PG play has been horrific in close games, we can't guard anyone, and our bench sucks. With Love sitting, we get destroyed.

Without him, I can't imagine we would have more than 12-14 wins right now.

SPURSFAN1
02-27-2014, 06:21 PM
Now he just needs to will his team during the fourth.

Lil Rhody
02-27-2014, 06:22 PM
Dear Danny Ainge,
Please trade some of our 1st round picks for k love. Idk I may be crazy but I have a bad/good feeling that it's 07 all over again.

Celtics will not get a top pick and miss out on a Durant type player which is bad..... But we make a trade to the T Wolves that helps them and gives the celtics one of the deadliest pick n pop game with rondo to love.

A man can dream right?

Swashcuff
02-27-2014, 06:52 PM
Meh, I feel like his stats, impressive as they are, have been inflated due to him being the first, second and third option for that team.

I don't think he carries the biggest burden, because honestly, nobody expects him to win anything. Guys like Lebron, Durant, CP3 etc have a bigger burden because they're under the microscope being analysed and told "you need to win now".

Love definitely is in one of the worst situations that a player of his caliber could be in though. Minny should have traded him imo, they could have gotten fair value (they won't next year).

Was Durant's numbers inflated when Westy went down or was he just playing at an EXTREMELY high level. How about Bron in his days in Cleveland? Were his stats inflated? What about Wade pre LeBron post Shaq? His USG% for the month of February is higher than any month in his career thus far and despite that he's had his best month in terms of TS% and 2nd best in terms of ORTG (no Pek and Martin can do that to you). Even if his numbers are inflated he's been doing it at a remarkably efficient clip.

Swashcuff
02-27-2014, 06:53 PM
I think he is carrying the biggest burden this season. However, he has played poorly in close games down the stretch, something he wasn't doing 2 years ago. The whole team is. Our PG play has been horrific in close games, we can't guard anyone, and our bench sucks. With Love sitting, we get destroyed.

Without him, I can't imagine we would have more than 12-14 wins right now.

His 4th quarter/clutch play this season has been abysmal by his standards its strange because that was one of his strengths a coupe years ago.

AddiX
02-27-2014, 06:55 PM
Oh, This thread again...

WARRIORS@GR
02-27-2014, 06:57 PM
MELO is because Love's team is still better than Anthony...

Love on the Knicks as is... Maybe the same results... Melo on the Wolves with Rubio, Pek and adelman... Better than .500Proof?Love>>>>>>>>Melo

Hawkeye15
02-27-2014, 07:00 PM
His 4th quarter/clutch play this season has been abysmal by his standards its strange because that was one of his strengths a coupe years ago.

I think he relies too much on the 3 ball late in games personally. He needs to get into the paint and live at the line in close games, he gets calls.

mightybosstone
02-28-2014, 12:37 PM
It's so obvious to me that Minnesota needs to trade some of its pieces to get a second superstar and that Russell Westbrook is ripe for the picking if they have the balls to pull it off. You deal Pekovic, Rubio and as many first round picks as it takes for Westbrook. I don't know that OKC takes it, but Sam Presti definitely doesn't hang up the phone. If they wait until the season's over, maybe they can add Kevin Martin and Kendrick Perkins into the deal.

D-Leethal
02-28-2014, 12:51 PM
It's so obvious to me that Minnesota needs to trade some of its pieces to get a second superstar and that Russell Westbrook is ripe for the picking if they have the balls to pull it off. You deal Pekovic, Rubio and as many first round picks as it takes for Westbrook. I don't know that OKC takes it, but Sam Presti definitely doesn't hang up the phone. If they wait until the season's over, maybe they can add Kevin Martin and Kendrick Perkins into the deal.

Perkins would have to be involved if you don't want them to hang up the phone. Pekovic makes too much money for OKC to be willing to pay both of them. I don't think Rubio has much value at all either at this point.

D-Leethal
02-28-2014, 12:52 PM
Whether its Melo or Love is up for debate, but there aren't any other teams that need their best player to drop 40+ and 10+ just to have a chance to compete with the worst teams in the league.

mightybosstone
02-28-2014, 12:56 PM
Perkins would have to be involved if you don't want them to hang up the phone. Pekovic makes too much money for OKC to be willing to pay both of them. I don't think Rubio has much value at all either at this point.

Regardless, Minnesota does have the assets to make that deal work.

mightybosstone
02-28-2014, 12:59 PM
Both guys clearly have huge burdens, but I'd give Melo a slight edge over Love. I think Love is actually a much better player right now, but people have so few expectations of Minnesota. If the Wolves miss the playoffs, no one will be surprised or disgusted, and that sucks for Minnesota fans, but the rest of the NBA or its fans will hardly notice. However, if the Knicks miss the playoffs, everyone will look at Melo. They're the most profitable franchise in the league, they play in the largest media market and they're terrible. That's a huge burden for superstar to take on. Then you throw in the strength of the West and the weakness of the East, and it makes it that much worse.

JEDean89
02-28-2014, 12:59 PM
Never said he was.



His supporting cast isn't bad enough that he shouldn't be winning but it's bad enough to keep them out of the playoffs in the West, there's a difference.



In terms of scoring? In general I would say it's Rubio by a wide margin. In terms of scoring though it's probably Martin.



Melo IS overrated. Unlike Love.




You could put Lebron or KD on a middle school basketball team and they would make the NBA playoffs.

:facepalm: when you say a guys stats are inflated, you are saying he is overrated, practically the same.

when I say he can't win, I mean he can't win at a clip required to get him into the playoffs. clearly there is a difference between winning and making the playoffs, the bucks have won 11 games, your rebute is a completely moot point.

Rubio or Martin, Rubio's PER is 15, you are only confirming my point, he is a garbage and shoots 36% from the field, Kevin is a better producer, his PER is higher, but ya those are his best pieces along with Pek.

Melo is overrated? Didn't ESPN have him outside the top 10? Who is overrating him other than some Knicks fans?
He leads the league in mins per game and has a top 10 PER despite that. Again, everywhere I've seen him ranked has him outside the top 10.

KD and Lebron on a middle school basketball team? :facepalm: I guess after reading that I shouldn't respond because it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Put KD on the Bucks or 76ers and they aren't making the playoffs. You do realize there are 10 guys on the court at any one time right?

Tony_Starks
02-28-2014, 01:02 PM
I don't have all this sympathy about his supporting cast. Martin can score, Rubio can drop dimes and defend, Brewer is a very good defensive wing, Pek is tough inside, Barea has game....etc. Is it the greatest team? Nope, but if Love is a franchise guy they're good enough for the 8th spot. A Davis is doing about the same with less talent.

Love can put up all the great fantasy numbers he wants but until he learns some semblance of defense they'll always be a bad team.

mightybosstone
02-28-2014, 01:11 PM
I don't have all this sympathy about his supporting cast. Martin can score, Rubio can drop dimes and defend, Brewer is a very good defensive wing, Pek is tough inside, Barea has game....etc. Is it the greatest team? Nope, but if Love is a franchise guy they're good enough for the 8th spot. A Davis is doing about the same with less talent.

Love can put up all the great fantasy numbers he wants but until he learns some semblance of defense they'll always be a bad team.

In Love's defense, Martin and Pekovic have missed quite a few games this season, and their SRS and point differential are indicative of a team with a much better record than they have. Also, you put them in the Eastern Conference, and they'd easily be a 4-6 seed. And you give the Pelicans and Davis way too much credit. They're a substantially worse basketball team, and they're hardly devoid of talent. If Anderson and Holiday had played more games this season, that's a pretty decent supporting cast with Eric Gordon in the mix.

Tony_Starks
02-28-2014, 01:17 PM
Both guys clearly have huge burdens, but I'd give Melo a slight edge over Love. I think Love is actually a much better player right now, but people have so few expectations of Minnesota. If the Wolves miss the playoffs, no one will be surprised or disgusted, and that sucks for Minnesota fans, but the rest of the NBA or its fans will hardly notice. However, if the Knicks miss the playoffs, everyone will look at Melo. They're the most profitable franchise in the league, they play in the largest media market and they're terrible. That's a huge burden for superstar to take on. Then you throw in the strength of the West and the weakness of the East, and it makes it that much worse.

The Wolves were projected as high as 6th seed this year, mostly due to Love. So for them to miss playoffs again would be a big deal to some....

mightybosstone
02-28-2014, 01:21 PM
The Wolves were projected as high as 6th seed this year, mostly due to Love. So for them to miss playoffs again would be a big deal to some....

Mmm.... I saw some analysts project them as a playoff team and some who didn't, but it certainly wasn't a foregone conclusion in the minds of everybody. And the analysts who did put them in the playoffs had them in the 6-8 range. That's not to say they don't deserve some criticism when young teams like Portland and Phoenix surprised everyone to crack the postseason discussion, but no one saw Minnesota as legitimate contenders. Meanwhile, the Knicks were expected to be a top 4-5 seed and make it at least to the second round.

Alayla
02-28-2014, 01:29 PM
Kevin Love has to be the most disrespected player in the league right now just because he is on a bad team he is totally disregarded but the truth is the guy is absolutely insane.

John Walls Era
02-28-2014, 01:39 PM
Hes very good, but I'm not giving him the bad team excuse anymore. The guy is good at shooting, rebounding and passing. If he never makes the playoffs, do we still give him a pass?

THats why I think he should leave and join another star. Then he can prove me wrong and win a ring.

Tony_Starks
02-28-2014, 01:44 PM
Hes very good, but I'm not giving him the bad team excuse anymore. The guy is good at shooting, rebounding and passing. If he never makes the playoffs, do we still give him a pass?

THats why I think he should leave and join another star. Then he can prove me wrong and win a ring.

This is what I'm saying. Before the season even Wolves fans were saying ok no more excuses, it's playoff time. Then when they started to suck as usual we just started hearing the same lame rhetoric all over again....

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 01:54 PM
I don't have all this sympathy about his supporting cast. Martin can score, Rubio can drop dimes and defend, Brewer is a very good defensive wing, Pek is tough inside, Barea has game....etc. Is it the greatest team? Nope, but if Love is a franchise guy they're good enough for the 8th spot. A Davis is doing about the same with less talent.

Love can put up all the great fantasy numbers he wants but until he learns some semblance of defense they'll always be a bad team.

Martin can score but has become at total ball stopper who sucks late in games, and doesn't guard anything. Pekovic can score but can't defend the rim at all. Rubio has neat looking passes, but is a horrific scorer whose defense has regressed to below average. Barea ****ing sucks dude.

You obviously haven't watched the Wolves play this year, and didn't even bother to flip over to BR to glance at the numbers. Their record isn't indicative of their play, they should have 5-6 more wins, but lets not act like anyone outside Pekovic is a pretty good player for the Wolves, sans Love.

Goose17
02-28-2014, 01:55 PM
:facepalm: when you say a guys stats are inflated, you are saying he is overrated, practically the same.


Not at all. I'm just saying that he's the first, second and third option on that team. So obviously he's going to get more buckets than he would on a team with two or three more scoring options. And he's a beast on the glass, that's not debatable.

I'm just saying if he was playing with a more talented roster (in terms of scoring, because Rubio is a great floor general and defender) then he wouldn't be putting up the same numbers, because he wouldn't have to.

I'm not saying he's overrated, he's a top PF in the league, easily. I'm saying his stats are inflated due to his situation.




when I say he can't win, I mean he can't win at a clip required to get him into the playoffs. clearly there is a difference between winning and making the playoffs, the bucks have won 11 games, your rebute is a completely moot point.


Not at all. If he was in the East, he would be in the playoffs. Again, I'm trying to say we need to consider his situation.




Rubio or Martin, Rubio's PER is 15, you are only confirming my point, he is a garbage and shoots 36% from the field, Kevin is a better producer, his PER is higher, but ya those are his best pieces along with Pek.


I clearly stated that Rubio is their second best player if you're talking NOT scoring and just in general. He's one of the top five point guards defensively and has great court vision.




Melo is overrated? Didn't ESPN have him outside the top 10? Who is overrating him other than some Knicks fans?
He leads the league in mins per game and has a top 10 PER despite that. Again, everywhere I've seen him ranked has him outside the top 10.


If people even have him sniffing the top 10 they're overrating him imo.




KD and Lebron on a middle school basketball team? :facepalm: I guess after reading that I shouldn't respond because it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Put KD on the Bucks or 76ers and they aren't making the playoffs. You do realize there are 10 guys on the court at any one time right?

Put Lebron on either of those teams and they make the playoffs, you do realise both of those teams are in the East right? The difference is, Lebron makes his team mates better. Love does not.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 01:57 PM
This is what I'm saying. Before the season even Wolves fans were saying ok no more excuses, it's playoff time. Then when they started to suck as usual we just started hearing the same lame rhetoric all over again....

I was one of them. I didn't see a huge regression in Rubio coming, and our bench deciding to collectively stink the floor up. I also didn't predict we would be 2-14 or whatever is games decided by 4 or less.

The team isn't far off from competing, but did Kahn's shortened deal totally screw us? Yes. If we are out of the playoff picture by next years trade deadline, Flip would be an idiot not to trade Love, even if its for 50 cents on the dollar.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 01:57 PM
Not at all. I'm just saying that he's the first, second and third option on that team. So obviously he's going to get more buckets than he would on a team with two or three more scoring options. And he's a beast on the glass, that's not debatable.

I'm just saying if he was playing with a more talented roster (in terms of scoring, because Rubio is a great floor general and defender) then he wouldn't be putting up the same numbers, because he wouldn't have to.

I'm not saying he's overrated, he's a top PF in the league, easily. I'm saying his stats are inflated due to his situation.




Not at all. If he was in the East, he would be in the playoffs. Again, I'm trying to say we need to consider his situation.




I clearly stated that Rubio is their second best player if you're talking NOT scoring and just in general. He's one of the top five point guards defensively and has great court vision.




If people even have him sniffing the top 10 they're overrating him imo.




Put Lebron on either of those teams and they make the playoffs, you do realise both of those teams are in the East right? The difference is, Lebron makes his team mates better. Love does not.

Rubio is nowhere near a top 5 defensive PG.

rhino17
02-28-2014, 02:00 PM
He's putting up empty stats. He doesn't do a lot offensively beside catch and shooter (he is a great shooter). Defensively, he's not particularly active. Blake Griffin has really separated himself from love this year

Goose17
02-28-2014, 02:08 PM
Rubio is nowhere near a top 5 defensive PG.

Feel free to prove me wrong.


He's #1 in the league for STL% (all players).
He's #1 in the league for steals per game (all players)
He's inside the top 5 point guards for DRtg.
He's 2nd in DWS for point guards.
On average he forces 4.8 turnovers from opposing PGs (PER48)

He has great instincts and a decent skill set defensively. He's definitely a top 4 defender for his position.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 02:12 PM
Feel free to prove me wrong.


He's #1 in the league for STL% (all players).
He's #1 in the league for steals per game (all players)
He's inside the top 5 point guards for DRtg.
He's 2nd in DWS for point guards.
On average he forces 4.8 turnovers from opposing PGs (PER48)

He has great instincts and a decent skill set defensively. He's definitely a top 4 defender for his position.

Really? I watch every single Wolves game. He gets destroyed on picks, lets his guy live in the paint half the night, gambles way too much, and is too physically weak to hedge players off drives. His steals are a mirage. Yes, he has great hands, but like Iverson long ago, or Rondo recently, he puts himself way out of position trying to get those deflections. Now, it doesn't help that he has nothing behind him to stop penetrators, but he is the point of attack, and doesn't hold it very often. And he is criminally bad scoring the ball, hence why JJ ****ing Barea closes half our games.

Rubio has regressed pretty badly this year. He used to be a good defender, but he has started to gamble too much, and teams have figured out just throw a pick at him and he is out of the play.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 02:13 PM
He's putting up empty stats. He doesn't do a lot offensively beside catch and shooter (he is a great shooter). Defensively, he's not particularly active. Blake Griffin has really separated himself from love this year

well someone never watches Love play

Goose17
02-28-2014, 02:16 PM
Really? I watch every single Wolves game. He gets destroyed on picks, lets his guy live in the paint half the night, gambles way too much, and is too physically weak to hedge players off drives. His steals are a mirage. Yes, he has great hands, but like Iverson long ago, or Rondo recently, he puts himself way out of position trying to get those deflections. Now, it doesn't help that he has nothing behind him to stop penetrators, but he is the point of attack, and doesn't hold it very often. And he is criminally bad scoring the ball, hence why JJ ****ing Barea closes half our games.

Rubio has regressed pretty badly this year. He used to be a good defender, but he has started to gamble too much, and teams have figured out just throw a pick at him and he is out of the play.

He's not a great P'n'R defender I'll give you that. But he's a terrific man on man defender. The numbers disagree with your eyes, sorry. It is what it is.

And he does gamble, this is what annoys me about Ellis, people think he's a good defender because he gets steals but he just throws himself around the court trying to get deflections, the reason he looked better in Milwaukee is because of the bigs they had roaming the paint, cleaning up after him for any penetration that got past.

I'll admit I haven't seen much of Rubio or the Wolves this year, watched about 14 games of theirs this season. But I still believe Rubio has great instincts (which makes sense considering his court vision) and quick hands.

Out of interest who would you put in the top 5 PGs defensively if not him?

Goose17
02-28-2014, 02:18 PM
He's putting up empty stats. He doesn't do a lot offensively beside catch and shooter (he is a great shooter). Defensively, he's not particularly active. Blake Griffin has really separated himself from love this year

What? Is that a serious comment or a troll? He does a lot more than that on offense.

You're giving him too much credit for his defense as well "not particularly active" you would be better subbing him out for an obese child on every defensive play.

His defense is just flat out awful. He doesn't even seem to put the effort in (from what I've seen). Usually poor defenders can still play above average purely from effort alone.

Tony_Starks
02-28-2014, 02:21 PM
I was one of them. I didn't see a huge regression in Rubio coming, and our bench deciding to collectively stink the floor up. I also didn't predict we would be 2-14 or whatever is games decided by 4 or less.

The team isn't far off from competing, but did Kahn's shortened deal totally screw us? Yes. If we are out of the playoff picture by next years trade deadline, Flip would be an idiot not to trade Love, even if its for 50 cents on the dollar.

You don't think that horrible record in crunch time is a direct reflection on Love? However you slice it if you're that close a superstar is supposed to be able to seal the deal. He can't because he has no go to moves offensively and doesn't create turnovers with blocks defensively.

If they were at least .500 in those situations ok but like 2 and 12? Nah, can't give Love a pass for that.

He's basically becoming a better scoring/ rebounding, worse defending version of Brad Miller.

D-Leethal
02-28-2014, 02:28 PM
Regardless, Minnesota does have the assets to make that deal work.

Maybe, but I'm still hanging up the phone if I get a call for Westbrook revolving around Pekovic and Rubio.


Martin can score but has become at total ball stopper who sucks late in games, and doesn't guard anything. Pekovic can score but can't defend the rim at all. Rubio has neat looking passes, but is a horrific scorer whose defense has regressed to below average. Barea ****ing sucks dude.

You obviously haven't watched the Wolves play this year, and didn't even bother to flip over to BR to glance at the numbers. Their record isn't indicative of their play, they should have 5-6 more wins, but lets not act like anyone outside Pekovic is a pretty good player for the Wolves, sans Love.

I think "Pretty good player" fits for a few guys on the team. But I do agree that none of the pieces fit. The second best player, Pek, doesn't compliment the best player, Love, at all. I think Rubio can still be a stud on the right team, in the right system, with the right athletic PnR big man, but Love/Pekovic tandem is clearly not it. I do think you have talent, but talent is irrelevant if the pieces don't compliment each other, and the pieces not complimenting each other will cause those pieces to play well below their talent level.

D-Leethal
02-28-2014, 02:32 PM
You don't think that horrible record in crunch time is a direct reflection on Love? However you slice it if you're that close a superstar is supposed to be able to seal the deal. He can't because he has no go to moves offensively and doesn't create turnovers with blocks defensively.

If they were at least .500 in those situations ok but like 2 and 12? Nah, can't give Love a pass for that.

He's basically becoming a better scoring/ rebounding, worse defending version of Brad Miller.

I think you can look at Melo in a similar way - two guys who earned the reputation of being a big time crunch time player, guys who came through way more often than not in the biggest spots, both having terrible years in the clutch this season. I think you have to look at the similarities in the burden they have on a nightly basis. Its hard to drop 30 in the first 3 quarters to keep you in it AND make all the plays to seal the deal down the stretch while leading the team in rebounds at the same time. These guys need help in those first 3 quarters so they can do what they have done their whole careers down the stretch.

Blitzbolt
02-28-2014, 02:41 PM
Klove sucks he is not a number one option.A star player makes his team mates better.STATBOOSTER!!!!!!!!!

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 02:54 PM
First off Love is a great player and I've always been a fan of his talent (well.. always since he became a starter 4 years ago). I think he's the best PF, although as I said.. I DO think on a more talented team his numbers would drop across the board. My only reservation is that never before in NBA history that I can recall.. has such a great individual player failed to lead his team to the playoffs, or even close to it.

You look at previous HOF caliber players who were basically one man teams and although they sometimes barely made the playoffs, at least they made it. Maybe it's because the west is a stronger conference now than any conference in NBA history, at any time.

Kushed
02-28-2014, 03:06 PM
He's putting up empty stats. He doesn't do a lot offensively beside catch and shooter (he is a great shooter). Defensively, he's not particularly active. Blake Griffin has really separated himself from love this year

He doesn't do a lot offensively..........?

UMMMM WHAT?!?!

Besides drop 40 points more than anybody other than Durant. Besides being the best offensive rebounder in the league... Besides stretching the floor better than any PF in the league like lol people don't realize the Wolves would be the worst team in the league without Kevin Love.

Dude is the most disrespected player on earth.

If this guy played for a team that got national media attention people would be praising his play and talking about him as a top 3 player in the league..


I see ESPN headlines sometime like "Griffen leads Clippers with 23 points, 12 boards"

Meanwhile Love drops 38 and 18 and they don't even mention it.

It's ****ing hilarious. I literally laugh.

34 and 14 for the month of February???!!!

He has the Wolves winning 5 out of their last 6 I believe WITHOUT Pek and Martin?

It has literally been ALL LOVE.

People need to wake the **** up.

I take LeBron.. I take KD... And then I take Kevin Love.

End of story.

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 03:15 PM
He doesn't do a lot offensively..........?

UMMMM WHAT?!?!

Besides drop 40 points more than anybody other than Durant. Besides being the best offensive rebounder in the league... Besides stretching the floor better than any PF in the league like lol people don't realize the Wolves would be the worst team in the league without Kevin Love.

Dude is the most disrespected player on earth.

If this guy played for a team that got national media attention people would be praising his play and talking about him as a top 3 player in the league..


I see ESPN headlines sometime like "Griffen leads Clippers with 23 points, 12 boards"

Meanwhile Love drops 38 and 18 and they don't even mention it.

It's ****ing hilarious. I literally laugh.

34 and 14 for the month of February???!!!

He has the Wolves winning 5 out of their last 6 I believe WITHOUT Pek and Martin?

It has literally been ALL LOVE.

People need to wake the **** up.

I take LeBron.. I take KD... And then I take Kevin Love.

End of story.

You're taking it way too personal. Nobody likes losers in sports, never have. Of course if you put up big numbers in mostly losses, nobody would care. Nevermind that many consider Love's game "boring". So he's not going to get he hype of a highlight machine in a big city like Griffin. Although as I said.. I think it's dumb to compare stat lines of Griffin and Love for obvious reasons. Love on the Clippers team playing with far more talent.. would see a huge drop in numbers I suspect.

Kushed
02-28-2014, 03:20 PM
You're taking it way too personal. Nobody likes losers in sports, never have. Of course if you put up big numbers in mostly losses, nobody would care. Nevermind that many consider Love's game "boring". So he's not going to get he hype of a highlight machine in a big city like Griffin. Although as I said.. I think it's dumb to compare stat lines of Griffin and Love for obvious reasons. Love on the Clippers team playing with far more talent.. would see a huge drop in numbers I suspect.

Not taking it personal at all haha I just think it's hilarious.

Like you said, many find his game boring. Griffen gets the hype cause he can jump out of the gym but that's because it's easy for the fan who doesn't know anything about basketball to be awed by.

If you've played basketball, if you study the game, you would love watching Love and that's where the beauty has gone missing because the national media serves up the average fan who doesn't know anything about the game.

Love plays it just about as good as anybody. Setting beastly screens for his teammates, throwing absolute dime outlet passes, creating space under the hoop for offensive rebounds, faking passes for step back threes, adding a very underrated post up game with a sweet baby hook.. His game is so much smoother than Blake's but he can't do a windmill so forgive me.

Goose17
02-28-2014, 03:22 PM
Love is a very good offensive player.

Blake will end up the more well rounded of the two. And, imo, the more successful.

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 03:26 PM
Not taking it personal at all haha I just think it's hilarious.

Like you said, many find his game boring. Griffen gets the hype cause he can jump out of the gym but that's because it's easy for the fan who doesn't know anything about basketball to be awed by.

If you've played basketball, if you study the game, you would love watching Love and that's where the beauty has gone missing because the national media serves up the average fan who doesn't know anything about the game.

Love plays it just about as good as anybody. Setting beastly screens for his teammates, throwing absolute dime outlet passes, creating space under the hoop for offensive rebounds, faking passes for step back threes, adding a very underrated post up game with a sweet baby hook.. His game is so much smoother than Blake's but he can't do a windmill so forgive me.

Well... you're implying Griffin lacks the substance of Love, which I disagree with and has been proven wrong. We talk about Love's 34/14 this month but despite far less minutes, far more talented teammates and far tougher opponents.. Blake is putting up 30/12/4 in February himself and has the 3rd best PER in the month after Love/Lebron. So he hasn't exactly been a slouch lol.

Kushed
02-28-2014, 03:27 PM
Love is a very good offensive player.

Blake will end up the more well rounded of the two. And, imo, the more successful.

The more well-rounded?!? Are you out of your damn mind?

Love is arguably the second most well rounded offensive player in the league.

lmao the unintelligence gets to me

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 03:27 PM
Love is a very good offensive player.

Blake will end up the more well rounded of the two. And, imo, the more successful.

My thought too. Griffin will never be the rebounder Love is.. but he has a chance to be an equal scorer and better defender, while also being a slightly better passer (which may already be the case you could argue).

Kushed
02-28-2014, 03:28 PM
Well... you're implying Griffin lacks the substance of Love, which I disagree with and has been proven wrong. We talk about Love's 34/14 this month but despite far less minutes, far more talented teammates and far tougher opponents.. Blake is putting up 30/12/4 in February himself and has the 3rd best PER in the month after Love/Lebron. So he hasn't exactly been a slouch lol.

Yeah he's been going ham I won't deny that.

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 03:28 PM
The more well-rounded?!? Are you out of your damn mind?

Love is arguably the second most well rounded offensive player in the league.

lmao the unintelligence gets to me

He clearly means well rounded OUTSIDE of the offense.

Kushed
02-28-2014, 03:33 PM
He clearly means well rounded OUTSIDE of the offense.

Okay well we were talking offensively so it seemed like that's what he meant.


24, 10 and 3.5

Or

26, 13 and 4

Goose17
02-28-2014, 03:40 PM
The more well-rounded?!? Are you out of your damn mind?

Love is arguably the second most well rounded offensive player in the league.

lmao the unintelligence gets to me

I'm talking about the most well rounded player. Not the most well rounded offensive player.

Blake is making significant improvements to his post game and mid range. He's already a better defender than love (who is arguably one of the worst defenders starting at his position, along with Boozer). And he's already a better passer. On top of that he's more athletic and he rebounds well.

Love will be a great scorer and a great rebounder. Everywhere else he will be below average (his outlet passing is sweet though). Griffin has the potential to be a good scorer, a good rebounder, a good defender a decent passer for his positon and a good rebounder. Throw in his superior conditioning, he is clearly, imo, going to end up more well rounded.


Griffin has the ability to average 26ppg, 10rpg, 5apg, 1spg, 1bpg.
Love, imo won't do much better than 28ppg, 14rpg, 4apg.

They will both be impressive players and Love will forever be the more versatile scorer. But Blake will most likely end up more well rounded.

People are constantly selling Blake short, he takes a lot of crap. He has the potential to the most well rounded power forward in this league if he would just show more focus defensively and continue to work on his post skills and mid range. If Griffin develops a solid post game and some consistent defense, he's going to have a very long and successful career. If he doesn't? His knee's will eventually give out, he will lose his athleticism and have nothing else to rely on.

Really, it comes down to him.

DreamShaker
02-28-2014, 03:41 PM
He is a truly awesome player. His outlet passes and passing in general is another great part of his game. The fact that there is not a real 2-way player on the team hurts them. Rubio is an awful shooter and Martin and Pek provide little to nothing of value on D. He is in a terrible situation.

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 03:42 PM
Okay well we were talking offensively so it seemed like that's what he meant.


24, 10 and 3.5

Or

26, 13 and 4

Yea I understand. As for the numbers.. I honestly believe the scoring can be accounted for by Love having less guys around taking shots from him. He also takes 2 shots more than Griffin per game, which since both shoot 50+ plus percent that's 2 ppg more right there. So essentially in terms of how much each scorers they are equals. Griffin far better in the paint, rim finisher. Love obviously much better outside shooter. So based on this we should be able to agree they are pretty equals in offensive production.

Then let's look at passing. Sure Love is averaging more APG this year... but Griffin has been an elite passer from day one and has proven it's not going to regress. Love out of nowhere jumped from 2.5 to 4 apg.. so I have no indication this is the norm going forward for him. I think with more talent and a healthier team next year, it likely regresses. So I'd say this year they are equals but as a whole Griffin is a more consistent, better passer.

Rebounding. Love clearly is the better rebounder in a landslide, nothing to debate here.

Defense. Griffin despite 2 years less NBA experience is the more consistent and solid defender. This year Love has closed the gap a lot and is only slightly worse, but going forward in the future Griffin is going to pull away defensively most likely.

Efficiency. Both are elite and have a TS% of 60. I'd give Love a slight edge here, but Griffin is no slouch.

So you see they aren't far apart in ANY category outside of rebounding and if you put Love next to DeAndre Jordan, I promise he'd average more like 11 or 12 rpg instead of 13+.

DreamShaker
02-28-2014, 03:44 PM
Blake is a better passer than Love??? I must have missed that. If you add in outlet passing, that is a big statement.

Blitzbolt
02-28-2014, 03:46 PM
Bosh>Griffin and love...no joke

Goose17
02-28-2014, 03:47 PM
Blake is a better passer than Love??? I must have missed that. If you add in outlet passing, that is a big statement.

I would say they're a wash in terms of passing if you exclude the outlet passing. But Loves outlet passing is sweet to watch.

I think Blake will develop into the better passer in general though, especially if he can develop a solid post game and pass out of there.

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 03:51 PM
Blake is a better passer than Love??? I must have missed that. If you add in outlet passing, that is a big statement.

Do you watch either player much? Griffin is a more consistent, well rounded passer. He's been elite... only bigs to match his assist percentages over the last 4 seasons are the Gasol brothers. Love has the edge in outlet passing but I'd love to see Kevin lead a one man fastbreak and make beautiful passes only PG's could make. Did you see Griffin's no look, one handed pass around a defender for the Collison layup the other day?

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 03:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3DGxnzsv3k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1leNJB-ZGsU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOIBFbGCqvg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmRx6p2CSqE

If you type in "Blake Griffin offensive highlights" you can find other passes too.

Goose17
02-28-2014, 03:55 PM
only bigs to match his assist percentages over the last 4 seasons are the Gasol brothers.

I had to look this up because I didn't believe you, checked the usual suspects, Horford, Lee, Diaw, Hawes etc but you're right. This is something I was not aware of. Very interesting (and impressive).

Jamiecballer
02-28-2014, 03:57 PM
Both excellent players but I'd rather have Love.

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 03:58 PM
I had to look this up because I didn't believe you, checked the usual suspects, Horford, Lee, Diaw, Hawes etc but you're right. This is something I was not aware of. Very interesting (and impressive).

Yea...I love when people act like Griffin's passing or ballhandling is a new phenomenon lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0qeFT9r8M4

Look at this Clip of Blake working out predraft for the Clippers. His insane skillset (footwork, ballhandling, soft hands) are evident.

Sadds The Gr8
02-28-2014, 04:00 PM
yes. without him that team would be right where Sacramento and LAL are.

Clippersfan86
02-28-2014, 04:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feRonfPfi1E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHEVi_H5jYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx8zOolD7t8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXiktpVnIXU

Ballhandling of a guard.

Kaner
02-28-2014, 04:10 PM
I blame Rubio

Goose17
02-28-2014, 04:10 PM
Yea...I love when people act like Griffin's passing or ballhandling is a new phenomenon lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0qeFT9r8M4

Look at this Clip of Blake working out predraft for the Clippers. His insane skillset (footwork, ballhandling, soft hands) are evident.

I knew he was a good passer for his position, just didn't realise he was like top 3 or 4.

Hellcrooner
02-28-2014, 04:16 PM
He doesnt have a worse roster tan Ray Allen had on the Sonics, Carter had on the raps,pau had on the grizz bosh had on the raps, kobe had 04-07, lebron had in cavs in the beggingin and so on, they ALL managed to get theyr POOR teams INTO PLAYOFFS

Love hasnt.

SOmething is smelling about him already.

Kaner
02-28-2014, 04:37 PM
He doesnt have a worse roster tan Ray Allen had on the Sonic, Carter had on the grizz, bosh had on the grizz, kobe had 04-07, lebron had in cavs in the beggingin and so on, they ALL managed to get theyr POOR teams INTO PLAYOFFS

Love hasnt.

SOmething is smelling about him already.

This memphis team would have probably made the playoffs all the years you mentioned. They are easily the 3rd-5th seed in the east

Kushed
02-28-2014, 04:47 PM
He doesnt have a worse roster tan Ray Allen had on the Sonic, Carter had on the grizz, bosh had on the grizz, kobe had 04-07, lebron had in cavs in the beggingin and so on, they ALL managed to get theyr POOR teams INTO PLAYOFFS

Love hasnt.

SOmething is smelling about him already.

First of all you mentioned two eastern conference teams and LeBron is arguably going to be the greatest of all time so that's not even a good point...


Plus, the western conference wasn't nearly as strong years ago when you mentioned so again a wash

Jamiecballer
02-28-2014, 04:53 PM
He doesnt have a worse roster tan Ray Allen had on the Sonic, Carter had on the grizz, bosh had on the grizz, kobe had 04-07, lebron had in cavs in the beggingin and so on, they ALL managed to get theyr POOR teams INTO PLAYOFFS

Love hasnt.

SOmething is smelling about him already.

Bosh bad a decent team when he made it but a weak weak conference. The rest of those guys are guards or swing men and they have a big advantage when it comes to taking games over than a big does.

Kushed
02-28-2014, 04:59 PM
He doesnt have a worse roster tan Ray Allen had on the Sonic, Carter had on the grizz, bosh had on the grizz, kobe had 04-07, lebron had in cavs in the beggingin and so on, they ALL managed to get theyr POOR teams INTO PLAYOFFS

Love hasnt.

SOmething is smelling about him already.

http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/breaking-down-kevin-loves-february-numbers

Hellcrooner
02-28-2014, 06:02 PM
edited previous post cause all players/teams were mixed up.

WARRIORS@GR
02-28-2014, 06:11 PM
He doesnt have a worse roster tan Ray Allen had on the Sonics, Carter had on the raps,pau had on the grizz bosh had on the raps, kobe had 04-07, lebron had in cavs in the beggingin and so on, they ALL managed to get theyr POOR teams INTO PLAYOFFS

Love hasnt.

SOmething is smelling about him already.He plays in a league dominated by guards.The West right now is one of the most stacked leagues of all time.If his point guard could make a lay up or a wide open 10-footer(after being hyped as a potential top PG in the league),this team would be in the playoffs.You are right,something is smelling,but it's not about him.Love has outplayed every PF in the West(which is also a preety stacked position).Rubio is one of the worst PG's in the West right now.

sunsfan88
02-28-2014, 06:14 PM
If he actually played defense and came through in clutch moments, Minny would have been in the playoffs and we would have gotten their 1st rd pick.

Kushed
02-28-2014, 06:22 PM
If he actually played defense and came through in clutch moments, Minny would have been in the playoffs and we would have gotten their 1st rd pick.

the playoffs aren't out of the question yet... tell your suns they can go ahead and keep losing games

by the way, if they actually had a bench then yeah they'd be a top 8 team right now

not making excuses because Love could definitely have been better down the stretch but when your bench is so atrocious it plays a role in a lot of those losses

Goose17
02-28-2014, 06:28 PM
the playoffs aren't out of the question yet... tell your suns they can go ahead and keep losing games

by the way, if they actually had a bench then yeah they'd be a top 8 team right now

not making excuses because Love could definitely have been better down the stretch but when your bench is so atrocious it plays a role in a lot of those losses

Their 5 games back from the 8th seed. It's not impossible but it is very difficult and not highly probable.

Tony_Starks
02-28-2014, 06:40 PM
Bosh bad a decent team when he made it but a weak weak conference. The rest of those guys are guards or swing men and they have a big advantage when it comes to taking games over than a big does.

I can't really give Love that pass because first Rubio is a pass first PG and second Love has the ball in his hands a lot.

It's not like he's playing with Stephon Marbury he has the green light to shoot whenever he wants, thus the great stats.

sunsfan88
02-28-2014, 06:46 PM
the playoffs aren't out of the question yet... tell your suns they can go ahead and keep losing games

by the way, if they actually had a bench then yeah they'd be a top 8 team right now

not making excuses because Love could definitely have been better down the stretch but when your bench is so atrocious it plays a role in a lot of those losses

Even if the Suns keep losing games, Memphis would get in way before Minnesota can even spell playoffs.

A shame cause the T-Wolves started off the season pretty well but just like every other season lately, injuries killed them.

Minnesota has top 5 worst athletic training staff in the NBA.

Jamiecballer
02-28-2014, 07:17 PM
I can't really give Love that pass because first Rubio is a pass first PG and second Love has the ball in his hands a lot.

It's not like he's playing with Stephon Marbury he has the green light to shoot whenever he wants, thus the great stats.
Still, its not like he can get the inbounds and carry it from one end to the other like a star guard or swingman can do basically whenever they want. If you are a big and you play the right way you are always at the mercy of your teammates to get you the ball.

zn23
02-28-2014, 07:32 PM
He's a beast. Probably one of the top 3 players in the game right now. But when you're playing with a bunch of bums it's hard to win.

Rubio has been a disaster, especially on offense. You're basically going 4 on 5 with Rubio on the court.

Pekovic is solid.

Martin is very inconsistent. He's also injury prone.

Their bench is also a joke.

So he's basically stuck with Pekovic, and sometimes he gets Martin.

Kushed
02-28-2014, 07:55 PM
He doesnt have a worse roster tan Ray Allen had on the Sonics, Carter had on the raps,pau had on the grizz bosh had on the raps, kobe had 04-07, lebron had in cavs in the beggingin and so on, they ALL managed to get theyr POOR teams INTO PLAYOFFS

Love hasnt.

SOmething is smelling about him already.


Even if the Suns keep losing games, Memphis would get in way before Minnesota can even spell playoffs.

A shame cause the T-Wolves started off the season pretty well but just like every other season lately, injuries killed them.

Minnesota has top 5 worst athletic training staff in the NBA.

Top 5 worst luck...

Also I keep up with the game so yes I know Memphis is in front of us right now and it is unlikely but anything can happen.

We've been on a nice little run as of late and if we can beat Sacremento and Denver in these next two we still have a shot. If we drop even one of those two it's over.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 08:43 PM
He's not a great P'n'R defender I'll give you that. But he's a terrific man on man defender. The numbers disagree with your eyes, sorry. It is what it is.

What numbers? He gives up a PER of 19.2 to his opponent. Other teams know just to smash him through picks, which is what they do. He has good hands, and gets steals, but he gets burned so easily. Quick guards absolutely destroy him.


And he does gamble, this is what annoys me about Ellis, people think he's a good defender because he gets steals but he just throws himself around the court trying to get deflections, the reason he looked better in Milwaukee is because of the bigs they had roaming the paint, cleaning up after him for any penetration that got past.

Monta? Well, he barely even tries on defense. Rubio at least tries. He just isn't physically able, now that he has been scouted (he was a very good defender his first year, not bad last year).


I'll admit I haven't seen much of Rubio or the Wolves this year, watched about 14 games of theirs this season. But I still believe Rubio has great instincts (which makes sense considering his court vision) and quick hands.

Sure, but as I noted above, he simply gets physically overpowered so easily.


Out of interest who would you put in the top 5 PGs defensively if not him?

Without even looking numbers up, Paul, Conley, Hill, Lowry, Jackson, Beverley, are easily better this season. Probably throw in another 2-3, if I looked up the numbers/impact.

Our biggest problem is, our FO was expecting Rubio to live up to the hype. He is a breathtaking passer, he really is. But he is horrific as a scorer, overrated as a defender, and while he has shown a little improvement down the stretch this past month, from Nov 1-Jan 1, he was a turnover machine in tight games (12 fourth quarters played, 6 TOTAL points, turnover rate over 24%). At this point, he needs to be surrounded by at least 3-4 scorers at all times to be of service in tight games, and even then, the other team just forces him to make plays without even guarding him.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 08:45 PM
He doesnt have a worse roster tan Ray Allen had on the Sonics, Carter had on the raps,pau had on the grizz bosh had on the raps, kobe had 04-07, lebron had in cavs in the beggingin and so on, they ALL managed to get theyr POOR teams INTO PLAYOFFS

Love hasnt.

SOmething is smelling about him already.

the names are there, the fit is not. Rubio has stunk, get over it dude. Pekovic is good offensively, but ultimately the worst possible fit defensively. Martin can score, but goes ice cold in 4th quarters and doesn't guard anyone. The bench is terrible. Literally terrible.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 08:47 PM
as for the passing argument with Blake versus Love, Love has made monster improvements this season. He is easily our 2nd best passer after Rubio in the half court setting. Factor in he starts transition with pin point outlet passes to any part of the floor he wants, and he has become an elite passing PF. But Blake is as well.

I would love to see what Love's success would be with Paul, and Jordan behind him (Pekovic is on paper a better player, but Jordan is a better fit for Love).

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 08:48 PM
Even if the Suns keep losing games, Memphis would get in way before Minnesota can even spell playoffs.

A shame cause the T-Wolves started off the season pretty well but just like every other season lately, injuries killed them.

Minnesota has top 5 worst athletic training staff in the NBA.

to be fair, Love and Pek play such a physical style, they are going to get beat up. They both miss 10 games minimum a year. So far, Love hasn't missed more than 3-4, so hopefully he stays healthy. Seeing as he is more perimeter oriented this year, chances are good. But Pekovic makes a living literally finding a body and destroying it.

Swashcuff
02-28-2014, 09:15 PM
He's not a great P'n'R defender I'll give you that. But he's a terrific man on man defender. The numbers disagree with your eyes, sorry. It is what it is.

And he does gamble, this is what annoys me about Ellis, people think he's a good defender because he gets steals but he just throws himself around the court trying to get deflections, the reason he looked better in Milwaukee is because of the bigs they had roaming the paint, cleaning up after him for any penetration that got past.

I'll admit I haven't seen much of Rubio or the Wolves this year, watched about 14 games of theirs this season. But I still believe Rubio has great instincts (which makes sense considering his court vision) and quick hands.

Out of interest who would you put in the top 5 PGs defensively if not him?

Goose this is the 2nd time today I've seen you do this. Only quote numbers that back your argument.

Everyone knows Rubio is great at stealing the basketball that however doesn't make him a good man defender (which he has not been this year). The Wolves have been a pretty decent defensive team overall this season and Rubio logs a pretty decent amount of minutes to its no surprise to see him ranking where he has in terms of DWS (when you take his team's DRg and steals into consideration) and DRtg which is a borderline useless stats when gauging the value of point guards defensively.



What numbers? He gives up a PER of 19.2 to his opponent. Other teams know just to smash him through picks, which is what they do. He has good hands, and gets steals, but he gets burned so easily. Quick guards absolutely destroy him.

Interesting that he ranked Rubio in terms of steals and steals% I wonder why he didn't rank him in terms of OPP Per/scoring?


Without even looking numbers up, Paul, Conley, Hill, Lowry, Jackson, Beverley, are easily better this season. Probably throw in another 2-3, if I looked up the numbers/impact.

Add Hinrich into that discussion as well. Then when you consider that Bledsoe (easily better) has been injured for the most part of the season and you left him out.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 09:19 PM
Goose this is the 2nd time today I've seen you do this. Only quote numbers that back your argument.

Everyone knows Rubio is great at stealing the basketball that however doesn't make him a good man defender (which he has not been this year). The Wolves have been a pretty decent defensive team overall this season and Rubio logs a pretty decent amount of minutes to its no surprise to see him ranking where he has in terms of DWS (when you take his team's DRg and steals into consideration) and DRtg which is a borderline useless stats when gauging the value of point guards defensively.




Interesting that he ranked Rubio in terms of steals and steals% I wonder why he didn't rank him in terms of OPP Per/scoring?



Add Hinrich into that discussion as well. Then when you consider that Bledsoe (easily better) has been injured for the most part of the season and you left him out.

Our defensive rating is so skewed too. We lead the NBA in 20 and 30 point leads. We seriously blow the **** out of teams when we win usually. But we can't win close games, and our defense goes from top 10, to bottom 3 in points per 100 possessions with under 5 minutes to go, 2 possession game.

Rubio was actually easily a plus defender his first season, but teams have simply figured out that you light him up with picks, and he fades away because he is flopping around, yelling, and trying to draw a charge. He is still good on close outs, and he is disruptive at times, and as I alluded to, the other team knows that we have nothing protecting the rim, so Rubio is left high and dry if his man does get by him, but he has taken a step back across the board this year.

Our expected W/L is 36-21 right now. It's even worse than your team was a few years back, who seemingly couldn't close games and were better than their record. Its so frustrating.

DreamShaker
02-28-2014, 09:45 PM
Do you watch either player much? Griffin is a more consistent, well rounded passer. He's been elite... only bigs to match his assist percentages over the last 4 seasons are the Gasol brothers. Love has the edge in outlet passing but I'd love to see Kevin lead a one man fastbreak and make beautiful passes only PG's could make. Did you see Griffin's no look, one handed pass around a defender for the Collison layup the other day?

Have seen a lot of Love and almost none of Blake this year. It was a genuine question. I need to check those clips out when I get the chance. Thanks for the info.

Sssmush
02-28-2014, 10:53 PM
Especially since his only legitimate partner (Pek) went down. For the month of February hes averaging 34.0 points, 14.1 rebounds

Thats more points than the leagues leading scorer, more rebounds than the leagues leading rebounder all while making more 3's than most of the league so hes spacing the floor for his team as well.

Its no wonder why the team is absolutely dreadful when hes not on the floor. Who else means this much to his franchise?

I think the Knicks should sign Love to a ten year $350 million dollar contract IMMEDIATELY !!!!

Sssmush
02-28-2014, 10:55 PM
Knicks: don't even think or hesitate. Sign Love for 10 years, $350 million dollars immediately.

You might consider sending every player under 25 and every draft pick this decade to Minnesota, also, just to make sure you get him.

Sssmush
02-28-2014, 10:57 PM
Seriously, KLove is that good. He might eventually be the best player in league history. Perfect for the Knicks!!!

meloman1592
03-01-2014, 12:02 AM
No disrespect to Love...the guy is great. But why is it that the wolves are so horrible, that's why he can't win, but for melo, it's his fault the Knicks can't win. Not to mention the coaching disparity..why don't they get the same treatment

Longhornfan1234
03-01-2014, 12:21 AM
Wade led worst teams to the playoffs than Love. Love is clearly the better individual player. I just don't understand why he can't get in.

Duncan = Donkey
03-01-2014, 12:53 AM
I wish Minnesota could start winning some more games, we want that pick this year. Just don't think they are good enough.

Blitzace137
03-01-2014, 12:58 AM
Wade led worst teams to the playoffs than Love. Love is clearly the better individual player. I just don't understand why he can't get in.

HE plays in the west coast, that's why.

sunsfan88
03-02-2014, 03:35 AM
to be fair, Love and Pek play such a physical style, they are going to get beat up. They both miss 10 games minimum a year. So far, Love hasn't missed more than 3-4, so hopefully he stays healthy. Seeing as he is more perimeter oriented this year, chances are good. But Pekovic makes a living literally finding a body and destroying it.
Yea I think Pekovic would have liked American football more than basketball. He could play as an OL or DL and just kill the person across from him.

John Walls Era
03-02-2014, 04:33 AM
Rubio is nowhere near a top 5 defensive PG.

Rubio is very good at defense. Thats probably his greatest attribute relative to others at his position.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2014, 11:23 AM
Rubio is very good at defense. Thats probably his greatest attribute relative to others at his position.

outside passing, it was early on in his career, then teams figured him out. Gambles too much, and gets smashed on picks. Now he is average defensively. His best attribute will always be his court vision and passing. Its as elite as any player in history, not going to lie.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2014, 11:25 AM
Yea I think Pekovic would have liked American football more than basketball. He could play as an OL or DL and just kill the person across from him.

I think Pekovic was sent here from medieval times. I mean, the dude has a giant tattoo of a knight standing over a pile of skulls..

Hawkeye15
03-02-2014, 11:28 AM
No disrespect to Love...the guy is great. But why is it that the wolves are so horrible, that's why he can't win, but for melo, it's his fault the Knicks can't win. Not to mention the coaching disparity..why don't they get the same treatment

3 reasons:

1- Its NY.
2- The Knicks play in a JV conference (the Wolves would get HCA out east most likely)
3- When your 2 cities teams lead the NBA in salary, you would figure you would get more wins

btw, I don't think intelligent fans are blaming Melo for anything this year, or even last. He is holding up his end of the bargain.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2014, 11:31 AM
Don't feel like reading 8 pages right now.

In regards to carrying the burden it's tiered:

I have to do everything:

Love/Melo

I have help but I elevate my team to a higher level:

Durant/LeBron/Noah

My team stinks but I'm going to still show I'm a stud:

Kyrie/Oladipo/Brow

siix
03-02-2014, 12:16 PM
love>griffin>>>>>>>>>>melo

THE MTL
03-02-2014, 05:16 PM
Its between Love and Melo for sure

Kushed
03-02-2014, 06:38 PM
Only Knicks fans say Melo holds the biggest burden lmao that team plays in the east and is more than capable of being in the playoffs.

More pieces around Melo than the Wolves have around Love yet they are 21-39.

It shows me Melo is absolutely nothing close to a leader. The fact they aren't even the 8th seed in the east is a straight embarrassment to everyone on that team.

People talk about Love putting up empty stats??

The fact that love plays in the west with one of the worst overall rosters is understandable but Melo?? The dude is garbage

tredigs
03-02-2014, 06:42 PM
No disrespect to Love...the guy is great. But why is it that the wolves are so horrible, that's why he can't win, but for melo, it's his fault the Knicks can't win. Not to mention the coaching disparity..why don't they get the same treatment

Come on, I know you're a Melo homer, but stop whining. "Kushed" and his constantly ridiculous posts aside, have you noticed many bagging on Melo recently to anywhere near the level they used to? I sure haven't. The guy has played brilliant (on one end) and earned the respect of a lot of the guys who saw the holes in his game (people like myself). Not to say he still doesn't have holes offensively - namely playmaking - but he is crushing it on an individual level.

The irony of it all is that NY fans think that the hate for him only started pouring in when he came to New York, but the reality is that that's the only point in which they started paying attention to it. But like I said, at this point, everybody knows how well he is playing and how little help he gets. Top 5 player? Not in my opinion. But he's in that argument for the first time in his career the past 2 seasons for me.

Cal827
03-02-2014, 06:48 PM
Only Knicks fans say Melo holds the biggest burden lmao that team plays in the east and is more than capable of being in the playoffs.

More pieces around Melo than the Wolves have around Love yet they are 21-39.

It shows me Melo is absolutely nothing close to a leader. The fact they aren't even the 8th seed in the east is a straight embarrassment to everyone on that team.

People talk about Love putting up empty stats??

The fact that love plays in the west with one of the worst overall rosters is understandable but Melo?? The dude is garbage

Lol, I absolutely dislike Carmelo too, but look at their roster. Pekovic is better than ANYONE that the Knicks have to Support Melo. Minnesota also has Rubio (I know he's overrated, but better defensively and passing over Felton), Kevin Martin, Cory Brewer, Barea (who might be better than Raymond Felon too)

Melo has Chandler (Declining, Injured), Bargnani ( As a Raptor fan... :laugh2: ), J.R Smith, who has forgot how to play basketball, Raymond Felton (Who's out of shape), Shumpert (Overrated, Injuries)

I I agree with you that it's pathetic that they aren't at least holding an east playoff spot, but Love has much more support. It's unfortunate that the T'wolves aren't considered an Eastern Conference team though. Who wouldn't want to see Love take on the Pacers? Or see Hawkeye take on a whole forum by himself? :D

Hawkeye15
03-02-2014, 06:50 PM
Come on, I know you're a Melo homer, but stop whining. "Kushed" and his constantly ridiculous posts aside, have you noticed many bagging on Melo recently to anywhere near the level they used to? I sure haven't. The guy has played brilliant (on one end) and earned the respect of a lot of the guys who saw the holes in his game (people like myself). Not to say he still doesn't have holes offensively - namely playmaking - but he is crushing it on an individual level.

The irony of it all is that NY fans think that the hate for him only started pouring in when he came to New York, but the reality is that that's the only point in which they started paying attention to it. But like I said, at this point, everybody knows how well he is playing and how little help he gets. Top 5 player? Not in my opinion. But he's in that argument for the first time in his career the past 2 seasons for me.

pretty much. Intelligent fans saw Melo in Denver as a ball hog whose style didn't translate into wins, despite him having very good rosters and coaches around him the entire time he was there that were able to work around his faults and win games. I actually think his last 2 seasons have easily been his best individually, the Knicks have just had no luck with injuries, and flat out roster talent. Put this Melo back in those Denver days, and they are better than they were.

You do have to agree, Melo got the benefit of "winner" tag because he went to a lottery team, and they immediately were in the playoffs every year. Even though all it takes is a quick look at the roster before and after he came. He went to a talented team that was destroyed by injuries the year he was drafted, and was a much better team than their record indicated.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2014, 06:54 PM
Lol, I absolutely dislike Carmelo too, but look at their roster. Pekovic is better than ANYONE that the Knicks have to Support Melo. Minnesota also has Rubio (I know he's overrated, but better defensively and passing over Felton), Kevin Martin, Cory Brewer, Barea (who might be better than Raymond Felon too)

Melo has Chandler (Declining, Injured), Bargnani ( As a Raptor fan... :laugh2: ), J.R Smith, who has forgot how to play basketball, Raymond Felton (Who's out of shape), Shumpert (Overrated, Injuries)

I I agree with you that it's pathetic that they aren't at least holding an east playoff spot, but Love has much more support. It's unfortunate that the T'wolves aren't considered an Eastern Conference team though. Who wouldn't want to see Love take on the Pacers? Or see Hawkeye take on a whole forum by himself? :D

yeah, no need to debate with Kushed on Love dude, he is being irrational here. The Wolves problem is they fold late in games. They have an expected record of 37-21, they just weren't able to win close games. They have the most 20, and 30 point leads in the league, yet sit at 29-29. They just fall apart late in games, and there are a number of factors for that (no rim protection, and horrific PG play namely, as well as Martin and Love go cold for some reason, which is frustrating, because Love was money in tight games prior to this year).

But yeah, out east, the Wolves would likely have 34-35 wins right now. Oh well..

Why wouldn't you want to see me argue with an entire forum?

Longhornfan1234
03-03-2014, 10:55 AM
HE plays in the west coast, that's why.

Love is better individual player and has much better supporting cast than 08-10 Wade. Equals out.

Kushed
03-03-2014, 05:32 PM
Love is better individual player and has much better supporting cast than 08-10 Wade. Equals out.

not at all lmao

nycericanguy
03-03-2014, 05:38 PM
Lol, I absolutely dislike Carmelo too, but look at their roster. Pekovic is better than ANYONE that the Knicks have to Support Melo. Minnesota also has Rubio (I know he's overrated, but better defensively and passing over Felton), Kevin Martin, Cory Brewer, Barea (who might be better than Raymond Felon too)

Melo has Chandler (Declining, Injured), Bargnani ( As a Raptor fan... :laugh2: ), J.R Smith, who has forgot how to play basketball, Raymond Felton (Who's out of shape), Shumpert (Overrated, Injuries)

I I agree with you that it's pathetic that they aren't at least holding an east playoff spot, but Love has much more support. It's unfortunate that the T'wolves aren't considered an Eastern Conference team though. Who wouldn't want to see Love take on the Pacers? Or see Hawkeye take on a whole forum by himself? :D

Agreed... the supporting casts this year are not even a comparison. Melo would LOVE to have Pek, Rubio, Brew and Kevin Martin around him, I guarantee you that.

Rubio/Barea > Felton
Martin > JR/Shump
Brewer > Shump
Pek > Tyson... though a healthy Tyson with the right pieces around him I think is a better player.

Knicks have had a pathetic season no doubt, they clearly quit on Woodson months ago... but Melo usually has his teams at 50 wins year and in year out.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2014, 10:19 PM
Agreed... the supporting casts this year are not even a comparison. Melo would LOVE to have Pek, Rubio, Brew and Kevin Martin around him, I guarantee you that.

Rubio/Barea > Felton
Martin > JR/Shump
Brewer > Shump
Pek > Tyson... though a healthy Tyson with the right pieces around him I think is a better player.

Knicks have had a pathetic season no doubt, they clearly quit on Woodson months ago... but Melo usually has his teams at 50 wins year and in year out.

While that's true, all of it, I'm not so sure that Melo hasn't sort of set himself up for this by playing the way he has his whole career. The blue collar crew surrounding the incredibly high usage scorer is sort of a tried and tested formula so long as the guys around him actually perform, which they have not. I don't think he could co-exist with other offensive weapons much like AI.

Chronz
03-04-2014, 01:52 AM
Wade led worst teams to the playoffs than Love. Love is clearly the better individual player. I just don't understand why he can't get in.
What does Wade have to do with this? Nobody ever put Love on Wade's level.

It would be more relevant to list guys who are allegedly inferior that led their teams better.

Chronz
03-04-2014, 01:53 AM
Love is better individual player and has much better supporting cast than 08-10 Wade. Equals out.

HUH? Wade was the better individual player, its why he was able to get more out of his teams.

nycericanguy
03-04-2014, 12:24 PM
While that's true, all of it, I'm not so sure that Melo hasn't sort of set himself up for this by playing the way he has his whole career. The blue collar crew surrounding the incredibly high usage scorer is sort of a tried and tested formula so long as the guys around him actually perform, which they have not. I don't think he could co-exist with other offensive weapons much like AI.

"incredibly high usage is an exaggeration. If you're going to sore close to 30ppg obviously you're going to have a high usage. His career is 31.7, Wade, Kobe career are higher, Harden has been around there, Durant is around there... that's just off the top of my head. You're not going to score 28ppg and have a 23% usage...lol

Difference is those other guys have had the chance to not only play with all star players, but HOF type players.

sunsfan88
03-04-2014, 03:05 PM
No Dragic does when plays without Bledsoe. Nobody else on the Suns knows how to dribble a ball.

Hawkeye15
03-04-2014, 03:14 PM
No Dragic does when plays without Bledsoe. Nobody else on the Suns knows how to dribble a ball.

he has done that how many games, 25-30? Love has done it for 4 years...