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Hellcrooner
02-27-2014, 02:00 PM
Of who they played with.

No active players to not derail the trade.

Kevin Mchale.
Joe Dummars
James Worhty
Scottie Pippen.

They got into a position where they won rings in Heavy loaded teams and with some of the Best players ever being " the man", Bird, thomas, Kareem+Magic, Jordan.

Worhty did win a finals mvp, and not to be forgotten that he was the "main man" in a Ncaa winning team that featured this guy named Mike.
He also was able to almost defeat a very good suns team in barkley era when he magic left, and he was too broke down at that momento.

But he never got to prove who he was at his prime as team leader.

Dumars was a hell of a glue man and defensive player he was an efficient scorer and his merit on rings is undeniable because of his work on oppsing star players including jordan, when he reached his prime tough the rest of the team was falling appart with age so he never got the chance to lead a good team.

Kevin Mchale was the right hand man for Bird, one of the best PF ever and had a good ncaa record, he could have actually been teh first option somwhere but there he was with bird, and when bird left he didnt ahve any thing to work with and he was himself worn down.

Pippen actually GOT one shot to prove his worth as leader, and yes with a similar roster MINUS Jordan he actually got a similar record tan the year before and they were only defeated by knicks at second round with a very polemich referiing in the key game.
Then whe he was in rockets or blazers he was way out of his primes.

All of them are in the hof, but they are regarded as Robis, deluxe robins, maybe nightwings but Could they ahve been batmans?

had they been batmans, would they have made the hof?

they are there because of themselves or because they fell in an ideal position.

Maybe some of them could ahve win rings by themsevles and be on an upper scheleon in people all time lists?

Toughts.

JasonJohnHorn
02-27-2014, 03:38 PM
I think with Pippen, if he still played under Phil Jackson, he would have been great. Tex Winter's triangle offense was ideal for Pippen. He may not have excelled in other situations.

Dumars would have been great where ever he went, but he would not have been a first option on a playoff team. He isn't the ball handler or shot creater that other guys are, but he was a solid shooter and great defender, and he had not ego. He would have found a winning situation, but unless he won rings, he wouldn't have made the HOF.

I think Worthy could have been able to put up number similar to Nique or Melo on offense had be been required to do so, so I think he would have been a lock for the HOF. Like Gervin and McGrady and Carter, I don't think he would have done well in the playoffs without another franchise player or a strong front court present.


McHale was great, and would have been an All-Star anywhere, but I'm not sure he could facilitate the way Magic and Bird could, and that is what made those guys so great. You put McHale with Jordan or on those old Pistonss teams, and he's going to be the second option and excel, but I don't think he could have been THEE man on a championship team.

abe_froman
02-27-2014, 04:04 PM
the only one that would see a big swing is dumars, i dont think he makes the hof if he wasnt on the bad boys

worthy's eff numbers would probably take a dip but his raw stats would take a jump.

we saw a year and half glimpse of pippen but always having that role i think he probably would be a bit better ,same as mchale

Chronz
02-27-2014, 04:44 PM
Nobody wins rings on their own.

That said, only Pippen and McHale had true #1 abilities by my subjective definition of that. Worthy was close tho

Dumars.... always felt he was overrated, when he was on his own he didn't lift his team in any meaningful way and his statistics were pretty meager IMO.

JordansBulls
02-27-2014, 04:46 PM
Dumars won the first finals mvp for the Pistons franchise. So he obviously was a #1 guy.

Chronz
02-27-2014, 05:23 PM
Dumars won the first finals mvp for the Pistons franchise. So he obviously was a #1 guy.

lol typical.

Guess that means Cornbread Maxwell is a franchise guy. You know, that guy that never once averaged 20PPG in the free flowing 80's and never once made an All-Star team.


Why do you insist on these absolute standards?


If Dumars was a #1 guy, why did he never produce at the level of Pippen, McHale, and Worthy?

JordansBulls
02-27-2014, 06:35 PM
lol typical.

Guess that means Cornbread Maxwell is a franchise guy. You know, that guy that never once averaged 20PPG in the free flowing 80's and never once made an All-Star team.


Why do you insist on these absolute standards?


If Dumars was a #1 guy, why did he never produce at the level of Pippen, McHale, and Worthy?

Maxwell didn't win a title for a franchise that never won, Dumars did. That is the difference here.

Chronz
02-27-2014, 07:27 PM
Maxwell didn't win a title for a franchise that never won, Dumars did. That is the difference here.
Im not seeing the point or difference, what does that have to do with a players ability?

So you're saying that if Detroit had won a title decades ago, that Dumars would be a radically different player despite performing exactly the same?

Who made up these rules for you? Have you been trolling us for years?

And answer the question plz, why did Dumars never produce at the level of Pippen, Worthy and McHale?

DreamShaker
02-27-2014, 10:03 PM
Lol at Dumars being the man on the Pistons. He was an NBA afterthought after Isiah left. You trollin, JB?

Jamiecballer
02-27-2014, 10:07 PM
Dumars won the first finals mvp for the Pistons franchise. So he obviously was a #1 guy.

:laugh:

JordansBulls
02-27-2014, 10:34 PM
Im not seeing the point or difference, what does that have to do with a players ability?

So you're saying that if Detroit had won a title decades ago, that Dumars would be a radically different player despite performing exactly the same?

Who made up these rules for you? Have you been trolling us for years?

And answer the question plz, why did Dumars never produce at the level of Pippen, Worthy and McHale?

He was as good as Worthy they both won finals mvp. The other 2 are a notch below Dumars and Worthy.

JordansBulls
02-27-2014, 10:35 PM
Lol at Dumars being the man on the Pistons. He was an NBA afterthought after Isiah left. You trollin, JB?

He led the team in win shares in the playoffs and got finals mvp.

Hellcrooner
02-27-2014, 10:54 PM
He led the team in win shares in the playoffs and got finals mvp.

Wich does not make you the best player of the team.

And im throwing stones at my own house by saying this :D

Chronz
02-28-2014, 12:10 AM
He was as good as Worthy they both won finals mvp. The other 2 are a notch below Dumars and Worthy.
So 0x All-Star Maxwell was as good as James Worthy?
Is Tony Parker ahead of both as well?

If hes a notch above them, why couldn't he produce or impact the game the way they could?

Why are you avoiding all the questions? Oh yeah, inconsistent logic is inconsistent


The truth is, Dumars was barely an All-Star and most definitely not a franchise player. Pippen and Worthy were easily better. McHale was the best of the bunch and he has no F.MVP.

slashsnake
02-28-2014, 01:34 AM
Dumars won the first finals mvp for the Pistons franchise. So he obviously was a #1 guy.

So then Isiah Thomas and Adrian Dantley were #2 and #3 on Dumars' team?

He stepped up HUGE in a 4 game series with a really good team. No I don't think he could be a part of a winning team with less talent where he was the #1 night in and night out. This was a guy averaging 14 points on 40% shooting (10% from 3pt range) through the playoffs to that point. If he was the clear cut #1, do they get by the bulls as Jordan averages 30 points to his 13? Not even a chance.

JordansBulls
02-28-2014, 05:16 PM
So 0x All-Star Maxwell was as good as James Worthy?
Is Tony Parker ahead of both as well?

If hes a notch above them, why couldn't he produce or impact the game the way they could?

Why are you avoiding all the questions? Oh yeah, inconsistent logic is inconsistent


The truth is, Dumars was barely an All-Star and most definitely not a franchise player. Pippen and Worthy were easily better. McHale was the best of the bunch and he has no F.MVP.

Why you keep bringing up other players? Maxwell nor Parker are part of the conversation. We are talking about these 4 guys. And yes Dumars produced otherwise he would not have been the first player to win finals mvp for the Pistons franchise. That is something the others could not do.

Jamiecballer
02-28-2014, 05:34 PM
Why you keep bringing up other players? Maxwell nor Parker are part of the conversation. We are talking about these 4 guys. And yes Dumars produced otherwise he would not have been the first player to win finals mvp for the Pistons franchise. That is something the others could not do.

So basically if Rip Hamilton had won finals MVP in 2004 his place in the HOF would have been cemented.

JordansBulls
02-28-2014, 08:16 PM
So basically if Rip Hamilton had won finals MVP in 2004 his place in the HOF would have been cemented.

Is Rip Hamilton part of the question that was asked? Or is it Dumars, Worthy, Pippen and Mchale?

Jamiecballer
02-28-2014, 08:26 PM
Is Rip Hamilton part of the question that was asked? Or is it Dumars, Worthy, Pippen and Mchale?

no but if i understand your logic Rip Hamilton would be greatly elevated in your eyes had he won that finals MVP instead of Billups. and he would also clearly be a number 1.

JordansBulls
02-28-2014, 10:44 PM
no but if i understand your logic Rip Hamilton would be greatly elevated in your eyes had he won that finals MVP instead of Billups. and he would also clearly be a number 1.

How so, neither Rip nor Billups are even the discussion.

Chronz
03-01-2014, 02:36 AM
Why you keep bringing up other players?
Because you insist on measuring players by extreme barometers, you cant be inconsistent and illogical without people raising questions.



We are talking about these 4 guys. And yes Dumars produced otherwise he would not have been the first player to win finals mvp for the Pistons franchise. That is something the others could not do.
So then why were his stats so terrible in comparison? Being the first doesn't mean anything, if the Pistons had won decades before, it would change NOTHING about how Dumars performed. Would Dumars have won MVP over Michael Jordan? So then why cling to such a ridiculous barometer that not a single other person on this earth would entertain? You are literally the only one who thinks this way JB. A single award isnt more important than actual performance/production and career awards.

And the truth is, Dumars isn't thought of as highly as any of those other guys, its why when you put them on a more equal platform, Dumars was never seen as an MVP candidate for his team. He simply had an advantageous matchup against a single team in a single series when teams were focusing on his superior teammate.
Why are we suppose to be impressed by that while ignoring how little Dumars accomplished afterwards?


Mchale
Pippen
Worthy









Dumars

Thats the truth.

Chronz
03-01-2014, 02:39 AM
Is Rip Hamilton part of the question that was asked? Or is it Dumars, Worthy, Pippen and Mchale?

LOL. Sorry jb but you cant pull a fast one around here, if you are going to abide by ridiculous standards, we are going to see just how low the barometer can stoop. We dont have to only look at the 4 players when you pretend that what you're saying is some sort of respected barometer. Its called the laugh test, your argument doesn't pass it. NOBODY cares about it being the first or about a single award, you have to compare against history and entire careers. FOR EVERYONE.

Jamiecballer
03-01-2014, 01:07 PM
How so, neither Rip nor Billups are even the discussion.

i just explained how. if Dumars is clearly a number one because he won a finals MVP, then using your logic Hamilton would have been one as well. since that appears to be the criteria. despite the fact that neither player had a HOF career or numbers that would indicate they were a "number one".