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View Full Version : Is Westbrook Durant's Kryptonite?



amos1er
02-25-2014, 03:48 AM
Since the return of Westbrook, Durant is once again reverting into his old self. Two loses in a row and Durant clearly does not look like the same guy we saw in January and early February. Now all of the sudden people are talking about Lebron for MVP again. Is it safe to say that Westbrook is holding Durant back from being the best player in the NBA and ascending to that next level? I for one think yes and OKC should look to move him in the off season for a more passive and less selfish wingman for Durant. I would go as far to say that Westbrook's return might likely cost Durant the MVP award if not his first ring. It's sad to watch this happen knowing what Durant can do without Russell holding him back. Perhaps the best thing for them to do is just sit Westbrook if things don't improve in the next ten games. Either that or the coach needs to step in and straighten him out and make sure he is cool with being in a Pippen/Gasol type roll. I just know that Westbrook is too alpha to accept such a roll and I don't think it will ever workout between these two. Thoughts???...

sunsfan88
02-25-2014, 03:58 AM
Doesn't matter if Durant's stats are taking a hit, if OKC doesn't get Westbrook back to his old form, the Thunder ain't going anywhere.

Last season proved that when they got smashed by the Grizz.

Chronz
02-25-2014, 04:00 AM
Or it could just be another example of small sample theatre, remember how Durant was trashed for his performance vs Memphis without Westbrook?

amos1er
02-25-2014, 04:17 AM
Or it could just be another example of small sample theatre, remember how Durant was trashed for his performance vs Memphis without Westbrook?

Ya, but he didn't have time to adjust to playing without Westbrook, or the confidence that he could do it on his own. This new Durant we have seen is like no other. I truly feel that he would be better off without a ball dominant guy like Westbrook. Someone less selfish would be more beneficial. Westbrook is just not the type of guy to take on a Pippen/Gasol like roll. Guess the sample size argument thwarts any sort of validity to what I am saying. I am just making a hypothesis based on what I have seen thus far. Hopefully they can get it to work out, but I just don't think Westbrook can make that kind of change to his character. Time will tell, and I hope that the Durant we saw in January and early February can co-exist with Westbrook and that they can maximize their talent together. Though I have serious doubts.

5ass
02-25-2014, 04:17 AM
didnt he put up like 42-11 in one of those games?

tredigs
02-25-2014, 04:21 AM
Westbrook played like 20 minutes in both and is shooting in the 20% range from the field. Let's give him a bit of time to get back in the swing of things.

Chronz
02-25-2014, 04:53 AM
Ya, but he didn't have time to adjust to playing without Westbrook, or the confidence that he could do it on his own. This new Durant we have seen is like no other. I truly feel that he would be better off without a ball dominant guy like Westbrook. Someone less selfish would be more beneficial. Westbrook is just not the type of guy to take on a Pippen/Gasol like roll. Guess the sample size argument thwarts any sort of validity to what I am saying. I am just making a hypothesis based on what I have seen thus far. Hopefully they can get it to work out, but I just don't think Westbrook can make that kind of change to his character. Time will tell, and I hope that the Durant we saw in January and early February can co-exist with Westbrook and that they can maximize their talent together. Though I have serious doubts.

Yea I have a hard time ignoring the mutually beneficial relationship they've had over the years for the sake of this run. You could be right, but I happen to think so highly of Durant, that I feel he would have played this brilliantly regardless. He was on his way last year. But I would agree to have very little time to adjust for that run does somewhat exonerate his performance.

Still, what is it you have seen this year?

poleandreel
02-25-2014, 05:06 AM
So KD taking 30 shots to Westbrooks 13 and OKC losing by giving up 121 points at home is explained by saying Westbrook holds kd back? Got it. Awesome logic.

With westbrook, okc makes the finals
without, they lost in the second round easily

with westbrook this season 24 and 7...

stawka
02-25-2014, 07:34 AM
So KD taking 30 shots to Westbrooks 13 and OKC losing by giving up 121 points at home is explained by saying Westbrook holds kd back? Got it. Awesome logic.

With westbrook, okc makes the finals
without, they lost in the second round easily

with westbrook this season 24 and 7...

This. Playoffs are a different ball game, and we all saw KD struggle without Westy last playoffs

SPURSFAN1
02-25-2014, 08:44 AM
Am I the only one that knows there is a difference between playoff basketball and regular season basketball? Playoff proven players are a commodity. You can depend on those players to show up in the playoffs.

flea
02-25-2014, 09:00 AM
The Thunder are better with a top 5 guard on their team than without, end of story.

todu82
02-25-2014, 10:18 AM
No because the Thunder and Durant need to have Westbrook there if they want to win a title this year.

ATX
02-25-2014, 10:20 AM
Westbrook can be an Alpha on other teams, but not this team. Durant is a perennial league MVP calibur player. The Thunder would be better served as a team if Westbrook could learn to be a "Smarter" (For lack of a better word) secondary player. For example, in the their first year Wade and James were both playing as Alpha's and they struggled to figure out how to coexist most effectively on the court together. By year two, Wade recognized that he needed to take a back seat to the better player, and voila, more team success.

koreancabbage
02-25-2014, 10:22 AM
its when Durant takes a back seat and doesn't demand the ball more. Durant only stops himself.

NYtilIdie
02-25-2014, 10:38 AM
The way the media and people try to pit these two against each other is pathetic. Durant will need Westbrook come the playoffs.

End of story.

blystr2002
02-25-2014, 10:44 AM
You can't win an NBA title with just 1 star player. OKC is better off with Westbrook in terms of being able to compete against MIA and the other top contenders. With that being said, I do believe that their styles don't seem to be the most cohesive. In the future, if they are able to trade him or get another elite player that fits Durant better then they should. They definitely can't win with just Durant though and Westbrook is one of the best guards in the league.

flea
02-25-2014, 11:21 AM
You can't win an NBA title with just 1 star player.

Yes you can.

koreancabbage
02-25-2014, 11:29 AM
Yes you can.

who has?

flea
02-25-2014, 11:37 AM
who has?

Hakeem, Duncan, and many would argue Dirk in 2011.

rockets-fan
02-25-2014, 11:49 AM
Trade Westbrook + lamb for a Conley + Gasol type deal and the thunder would be wayyyy better IMO

Conley
Sef
Durant
Ibaka
Gasol

I like that team

D-Leethal
02-25-2014, 11:54 AM
There is going to be a learning curve every single time you add a ball dominant guard back into the lineup. OKC is not better without Westbrook. Are the Bulls better without Rose too cause they/he looked like **** for the first 10 games?

D-Leethal
02-25-2014, 11:55 AM
Trade Westbrook + lamb for a Conley + Gasol type deal and the thunder would be wayyyy better IMO

Conley
Sef
Durant
Ibaka
Gasol

I like that team

All that said, I do think they should at least LISTEN if teams come knocking for him. You could easily put two quality parts around Durant that might not be as good as Russ, but add depth and allow KD to do his thing while replacing Russ with enough firepower to stay dominant.

Goose17
02-25-2014, 11:56 AM
Too small a sample size. I feel neither of these guys needs the other to win games, they could both be the alpha on a well constructed team. But they do play better together than alone imo and if they want to win a championship, they WILL need each other.

SportsFanatic10
02-25-2014, 12:00 PM
there's always someone who makes this type of thread, and i'm not surprised it's this op with his many twisted basketball views. durant and the thunder are better with westbrook plain and simple, it's like the idiots who thought lebron and the heat were better without wade last year in a small sample size. you don't take a top player out of the lineup and expect to be better. especially when they've been around for a while and everyone's used to playing together. sure okc hasn't looked as good since westbrook's return, but again small sample size and westbrook is rusty and hasn't got his game back yet. the thunder will be rolling again very soon, they just need a bit of time to adjust.

the bottom line is that the thunder don't have a chance to win the title without him period. with westy they're a legit powerhouse contender.

GSW11BRS
02-25-2014, 12:22 PM
Absolutely. I think the Thunder missed an opportunity to trade Westbrook away and keep Harden, instead of vice versa

Alayla
02-25-2014, 12:32 PM
People simply dont want to see them both on the same team. As much as people trash him any team would love to have Westbrook.

flea
02-25-2014, 12:34 PM
Absolutely. I think the Thunder missed an opportunity to trade Westbrook away and keep Harden, instead of vice versa

I'd still keep Westbrook over Harden. Westbrook is a 2-way player that can play either guard position. Harden is nice, but he's probably even more ball-dominant and doesn't bother much on one end of the floor. The knee injury could have changed things, but I don't think so yet (probably he'll have a shorter or more injury-prone late prime though).

scissors
02-25-2014, 12:44 PM
So KD taking 30 shots to Westbrooks 13 and OKC losing by giving up 121 points at home is explained by saying Westbrook holds kd back? Got it. Awesome logic.

With westbrook AND HARDEN, okc makes the finals
without, they lost in the second round easily

with westbrook this season 24 and 7...

fixed

KingPosey
02-25-2014, 01:07 PM
Maybe he does, but they are a better team with westbrook. That team cannot win a ring as constructed without Westbrook on the floor.

ManRam
02-25-2014, 01:07 PM
It's amazing how people consistently overreact about this issues. In the playoffs last year when RWB went down KD was getting flack and Russy's value was universally (almost) accepted. Now it's vise versa. And it's flipped back and forth a tremendous amount outside of that window too.

Now that he's returning from his THIRD knee surgery and is certainly rusty, he's flipped completely to "kryptonite" again.

The big sample size data suggests they are undoubtedly better when both are on the court. This year it looks a little shakier but hey! Let's be a little patient. There are also more volatile roster positions outside of just KD and RWB this season too that might be altering things a bit.

He's taken 25 shots in two games. Durant has 52 over that span, with 22 trips to the line, scoring 70 points. In those two games he's still getting shots up, he's still getting to the line and he's still scoring. Feels like a stretch to blame KD's performances on Russy. They played two great teams, and didn't get it done. Oh well. But it's still important to step back and look at big picture.

There are pros and cons, for sure, but he's a top-10 player when healthy and even if he shoots it 2-3 times too many a game, or takes a dumb shot here or there, I just can't see how he hurts in the long run.



Russell isn't a perfect player, for sure. As much fun as KD and RWB are, I hope some day in his prime Russell can be the main man on a team and show he's nothing less than a Derrick Rose. Playing with the game's best scorer doesn't help him look good...and he's frequently scapegoat-able, so there's a lot of remembering the bad and forgetting the good.

The team needs him healthy and productive. Period.

WestCoastSportz
02-25-2014, 01:08 PM
Being a Warriors fan, I've seen this before. A few years back, we drafted some kid named Stephen Curry, but also had a guy that loved nothing else but to score the basketball in Monta Ellis. I remember Ellis missed 3 games due to some injury and in that 3 game stretch, Curry nearly averaged a triple double which included one against the Clippers. The Warriors also went 2-1. Monta Ellis held not only Curry back, but the entire team because of his selfish style of playing. I see Westbrook having that same type of effect on the Thunder and Durant.

I'm not sure you can say that the Thunder are better with Westbrook since they won just as many games without him than with him and just went 15-2 in the last 17 games before Westbrook returned. Since returning, the Thunder are 0-2. I think they'd have just as good of or better chance of winning it all with Reggie Jackson.

Minimal
02-25-2014, 01:47 PM
Is it only me who thinks op is just jelly LeBron might still win the MVP and just creates such threads not caring about playoff perspective for Thunder?

beyourself
02-25-2014, 02:13 PM
there's always someone who makes this type of thread, and i'm not surprised it's this op with his many twisted basketball views. durant and the thunder are better with westbrook plain and simple, it's like the idiots who thought lebron and the heat were better without wade last year in a small sample size. you don't take a top player out of the lineup and expect to be better. especially when they've been around for a while and everyone's used to playing together. sure okc hasn't looked as good since westbrook's return, but again small sample size and westbrook is rusty and hasn't got his game back yet. the thunder will be rolling again very soon, they just need a bit of time to adjust.

the bottom line is that the thunder don't have a chance to win the title without him period. with westy they're a legit powerhouse contender.

Yes they do. Duncan did it. Hakeem did it. It can be done.

beyourself
02-25-2014, 02:15 PM
Durant and LeBron are so much better than everybody else in the league. With or without Westbrook Durant's only peer is LeBron.

beyourself
02-25-2014, 02:20 PM
I love how these people get on Durant and don't acknowledge that Westbrook at times just throws away games and Durant's game suffers.

When you have a PG who is selfish that affects star wings. Westbrook brings up the ball. He in a sense gets to decide to shoot. And he often doesn't pass it to Durant. There is no excuse for him to be shooting more than the best scorer since Jordan. Durant needs to be shooting 23+ times a game. He's usually at 19 a season which for a scorer as great as him is too low.

When a PG wants to ball hog, he ball hogs. Stephon Marberry was like this as well. Ricky Davis liked to ball hog too. He was literally waving off LeBron, Shaq and Wade.

Westbrook just wants to be alpha.

SportsFanatic10
02-25-2014, 02:24 PM
Yes they do. Duncan did it. Hakeem did it. It can be done.

not happening. they couldn't even get past the grizzlies last year. how they gonna win the west against multiple good teams with several stars, then likely have to beat a stacked heat/pacers team in the finals. again not happening.

beyourself
02-25-2014, 02:26 PM
not happening. they couldn't even get past the grizzlies last year. how they gonna win the west against multiple good teams with several stars, then likely have to beat a stacked heat/pacers team in the finals. again not happening.

Well we won't know unless you give him a chance. Durant is better than ever. His game is still ascending which is typical for young players.

Current Durant>Old Durant.

JordansBulls
02-25-2014, 02:34 PM
Wouldn't say he is his kryptonite overall, maybe for the season but for the playoffs he is needed.

KnicksorBust
02-25-2014, 05:07 PM
Trade Westbrook + lamb for a Conley + Gasol type deal and the thunder would be wayyyy better IMO

Conley
Sef
Durant
Ibaka
Gasol

I like that team

Yeah and the Grizzlies would be wayyyy worse which is why that deal would never be done. :)

KnicksorBust
02-25-2014, 05:12 PM
Since the return of Westbrook, Durant is once again reverting into his old self. Two loses in a row and Durant clearly does not look like the same guy we saw in January and early February. Now all of the sudden people are talking about Lebron for MVP again. Is it safe to say that Westbrook is holding Durant back from being the best player in the NBA and ascending to that next level? I for one think yes and OKC should look to move him in the off season for a more passive and less selfish wingman for Durant. I would go as far to say that Westbrook's return might likely cost Durant the MVP award if not his first ring. It's sad to watch this happen knowing what Durant can do without Russell holding him back. Perhaps the best thing for them to do is just sit Westbrook if things don't improve in the next ten games. Either that or the coach needs to step in and straighten him out and make sure he is cool with being in a Pippen/Gasol type roll. I just know that Westbrook is too alpha to accept such a roll and I don't think it will ever workout between these two. Thoughts???...

I agree that Westbrook and Durant do not fit well together. Their overall talent will never let them be anything but an elite team but Westbrook is not the right PG for this team to maximize Durant's talent and when you have a Kevin Durant, you build to his strengths. Zach Lowe suggested a Rubio-Pek-Barea for Westbrook-Perkins on Grantland today and I think that lineup:

PG - Rubio
SG - Thabo
SF - Durant
PF - Ibaka
C - Pekovic

Gives them a much better chance to make the Finals...

Oh yeah and they never should have traded Harden.

JordansBulls
02-25-2014, 05:17 PM
Yes they do. Duncan did it. Hakeem did it. It can be done.

MJ as well.

tredigs
02-25-2014, 05:26 PM
I agree that Westbrook and Durant do not fit well together. Their overall talent will never let them be anything but an elite team but Westbrook is not the right PG for this team to maximize Durant's talent and when you have a Kevin Durant, you build to his strengths. Zach Lowe suggested a Rubio-Pek-Barea for Westbrook-Perkins on Grantland today and I think that lineup:

PG - Rubio
SG - Thabo
SF - Durant
PF - Ibaka
C - Pekovic

Gives them a much better chance to make the Finals...

Oh yeah and they never should have traded Harden.
Westbrook may not give them the "best shot" (a trade centered around Dragic/Plumlee could be interesting), but it gives them a great shot and it's certainly better than not having him (when he's healthy - which in the first two games he has not been).

Probably worth mentioning that KD's "struggles" are him averaging 35/6/6 on 48% from the field against two great teams the past two games with Russ. It wasn't on Westbrook that he missed a couple FTs against LAC to spoil a great game.

Ebbs
02-25-2014, 05:26 PM
The way the media and people try to pit these two against each other is pathetic. Durant will need Westbrook come the playoffs.

End of story.

This. If you voted yes on this poll leave psd forever

beyourself
02-25-2014, 05:29 PM
The last 2 games have nothing to do with Westbrook. They just lost due to defense and when others teams jumpers are falling the just fall.

Focus on the past 5 YEARS or so of Westbrook going totally apeshiit out there.

My dad stopped watching the NBA around the early 2000s. I told him how great and fun it was to watch Durant. So at his house he turned on TNT to watch him. Next time I saw him he couldn't even articulate what he saw from their offensive system and Westbrook's decisions. He didn't even know what to say because of how ridiculous he plays at times.

Let's be real, Russell Westbrook just goes batshiit crazy at times on the court.

tredigs
02-25-2014, 05:39 PM
The last 2 games have nothing to do with Westbrook. They just lost due to defense and when others teams jumpers are falling the just fall.

Focus on the past 5 YEARS or so of Westbrook going totally apeshiit out there.

My dad stopped watching the NBA around the early 2000s. I told him how great and fun it was to watch Durant. So at his house he turned on TNT to watch him. Next time I saw him he couldn't even articulate what he saw from their offensive system and Westbrook's decisions. He didn't even know what to say because of how ridiculous he plays at times.

Let's be real, Russell Westbrook just goes batshiit crazy at times on the court.

That's a fact, but more often than not it is a good thing and the defense simply cannot contain him.

That said, it's important to have gears to your game and to be in complete control of how to establish your teammates when you're the PG, and it's an area where he is still severely lacking. Even coming off of injury, he doesn't have that off switch. Hence 28% shooting for him and a complete mess of OKC's offense as a whole the first couple games. It's playing out pretty much exactly how I expected, but this team is still much more potent and dangerous with him on the court in the playoffs (when he should be close to 100%).

That's a shame your dad missed out on the Duncan/Manu/TP legacy though.

WestCoastSportz
02-25-2014, 05:45 PM
I think a point guard like Rajon Rondo would be great on the Thunders. He's not going to shoot it much and he picks his spots. He's a pass first guard that can play defense, which is what this, or any other team for that matter, needs. Boston needs help everywhere. A straight up trade with Westbrook for Rondo would help both teams. Just because Westbrook is holding back Durant, that doesn't mean he's still not a good player. He could be a star on a team that needs him to be, but in OKC, Durant is the clear star and he doesn't need a point guard to try and prove otherwise.

SPURSFAN1
02-25-2014, 06:22 PM
Westbrook is like 10 times better than rondo.

beyourself
02-25-2014, 06:30 PM
That's a fact, but more often than not it is a good thing and the defense simply cannot contain him.

That said, it's important to have gears to your game and to be in complete control of how to establish your teammates when you're the PG, and it's an area where he is still severely lacking. Even coming off of injury, he doesn't have that off switch. Hence 28% shooting for him and a complete mess of OKC's offense as a whole the first couple games. It's playing out pretty much exactly how I expected, but this team is still much more potent and dangerous with him on the court in the playoffs (when he should be close to 100%).

That's a shame your dad missed out on the Duncan/Manu/TP legacy though.

Good point. Now he's been inserted into the lineup again they have to yet again adjust to him being in the lineup.

Durant can still get his, not as much, but he's still gonna get his. It's the role players and overall team that suffers and has to adjust to Westbrook's style the most.

Which it all comes back to. He's too ball dominant. At this point that's my strong opinion.

IversonIsKrazy
02-25-2014, 08:51 PM
I don't like WEsty too much (mainly b/c of a friend who constantly trashes my team by talking bout him and OKC), but I think the Westy/Durant combo could still easily work. I just feel like Westy needs to shore his decision-making ability, and maybe get a coach who actually calls out his players no matter how big of a superstar they are.

KnicksorBust
02-25-2014, 09:50 PM
I agree that Westbrook and Durant do not fit well together. Their overall talent will never let them be anything but an elite team but Westbrook is not the right PG for this team to maximize Durant's talent and when you have a Kevin Durant, you build to his strengths. Zach Lowe suggested a Rubio-Pek-Barea for Westbrook-Perkins on Grantland today and I think that lineup:

PG - Rubio
SG - Thabo
SF - Durant
PF - Ibaka
C - Pekovic

Gives them a much better chance to make the Finals...

Oh yeah and they never should have traded Harden.
Westbrook may not give them the "best shot" (a trade centered around Dragic/Plumlee could be interesting), but it gives them a great shot and it's certainly better than not having him (when he's healthy - which in the first two games he has not been).

Probably worth mentioning that KD's "struggles" are him averaging 35/6/6 on 48% from the field against two great teams the past two games with Russ. It wasn't on Westbrook that he missed a couple FTs against LAC to spoil a great game.

When did I say Durant's struggles?

Jamiecballer
02-25-2014, 10:06 PM
OKC needs more than just Durant to compete, i totally agree. But I would look to trade Westbrook at the first opportunity and get back a less ball-dominant PG and another wing or big. Maybe a sign and trade of Lowry + Derozan for Westbrook could be explored in the offseason.

Westbrook is not good enough to be doing his thing at the expense of Durant.

KnicksorBust
02-25-2014, 10:09 PM
OKC needs more than just Durant to compete, i totally agree. But I would look to trade Westbrook at the first opportunity and get back a less ball-dominant PG and another wing or big. Maybe a sign and trade of Lowry + Derozan for Westbrook could be explored in the offseason.

Westbrook is not good enough to be doing his thing at the expense of Durant.

Well that is the crux of the thread. If you just remove Westbrook entirely. OKC gets worse. But if you can trade him for pieces that would fit around Durant then that makes it a no brainer. That Rubio-Pekovic-Barea package looks better by the day.

beyourself
02-25-2014, 10:16 PM
Question about Westbrook's complete insane tendencies.

Does he lack the skillset needed to be a better team PG or is it a desire to be alpha?

blystr2002
02-25-2014, 11:27 PM
Question about Westbrook's complete insane tendencies.

Does he lack the skillset needed to be a better team PG or is it a desire to be alpha?

I would have no problem with Westbrook being the #1 for another team. I personally think Westbrook would be a better 2 then a PG though .He can slash and isolate all he wants without being in charge of who makes that decision on every play. You can still have him log minutes at PG in rotations and have plays where he dominates the ball. All the great players including Jordan, Kobe, Lebron have the ball in their hands at key moments, but aren't the PGs making the decisions the entire game. Maybe that would be better for Westbrook.

Bruno
02-26-2014, 12:30 AM
Durant needs another star if he wants to win a ring. westbrook isn't he best fit, but his help is necessary in the playoffs. westbrook is criticized for not being the best fit with Durant, something that's not his fault; he is elite regardless of the fit. durant is a better player than he was last year when Memphis knocked out OKC.

tredigs
02-26-2014, 12:32 AM
When did I say Durant's struggles?

The 2nd paragraph wasn't directed at you; multiple people mentioned it.

EL_MACHETE
02-26-2014, 11:28 AM
The way the media and people try to pit these two against each other is pathetic. Durant will need Westbrook come the playoffs.

End of story.


This


People need to get off their dicks and worry about their own teams

MrfadeawayJB
02-26-2014, 12:35 PM
Trade Westbrook + lamb for a Conley + Gasol type deal and the thunder would be wayyyy better IMO

Conley
Sef
Durant
Ibaka
Gasol

I like that team

Yeah and the Grizzlies would be wayyyy worse which is why that deal would never be done. :)


:nod:

Jamiecballer
02-26-2014, 01:34 PM
OKC needs more than just Durant to compete, i totally agree. But I would look to trade Westbrook at the first opportunity and get back a less ball-dominant PG and another wing or big. Maybe a sign and trade of Lowry + Derozan for Westbrook could be explored in the offseason.

Westbrook is not good enough to be doing his thing at the expense of Durant.
yeah i'd definitely take that deal for OKC.

ManRam
02-26-2014, 01:38 PM
Being a Warriors fan, I've seen this before. A few years back, we drafted some kid named Stephen Curry, but also had a guy that loved nothing else but to score the basketball in Monta Ellis. I remember Ellis missed 3 games due to some injury and in that 3 game stretch, Curry nearly averaged a triple double which included one against the Clippers. The Warriors also went 2-1. Monta Ellis held not only Curry back, but the entire team because of his selfish style of playing. I see Westbrook having that same type of effect on the Thunder and Durant.

I'm not sure you can say that the Thunder are better with Westbrook since they won just as many games without him than with him and just went 15-2 in the last 17 games before Westbrook returned. Since returning, the Thunder are 0-2. I think they'd have just as good of or better chance of winning it all with Reggie Jackson.

Let's not compare Monta Ellis to RWB here. Ellis was never in Westbrook's class.

And let's not act like Monta slowed his development. Injuries did.


Don't like this comp at all.

Jamiecballer
02-26-2014, 01:40 PM
Well that is the crux of the thread. If you just remove Westbrook entirely. OKC gets worse. But if you can trade him for pieces that would fit around Durant then that makes it a no brainer. That Rubio-Pekovic-Barea package looks better by the day.

ya i'd definitely take that deal for OKC. might try and weasel a pick or two out of them as well because there is no questioning Westbrook is the most talented player in that deal by a mile.

ManRam
02-26-2014, 01:40 PM
Yes they do. Duncan did it. Hakeem did it. It can be done.

That's irrelevant to the question. Are you suggesting they have a better shot without Westbrook than with him?


KD could theoretically win a ring without Westbrook...I just find it hard to believe that those odds are higher than the odds of him winning it with Westbrook.

JNA17
02-26-2014, 01:41 PM
who has?

Dallas (Dirk was the only star, the rest were above average role players) and Lakers (Kobe star, Pau all star, rest above average) since those were the last two teams to do it.

Throughout history there is a ton more.

JNA17
02-26-2014, 01:42 PM
That's irrelevant to the question. Are you suggesting they have a better shot without Westbrook than with him?


KD could theoretically win a ring without Westbrook...I just find it hard to believe that those odds are higher than the odds of him winning it with Westbrook.

I thought the question was just in general. I think the Thunder need Westbrook too.

beyourself
02-26-2014, 01:46 PM
That's irrelevant to the question. Are you suggesting they have a better shot without Westbrook than with him?


KD could theoretically win a ring without Westbrook...I just find it hard to believe that those odds are higher than the odds of him winning it with Westbrook.

Right now if the playoffs started and Westbrook was 100% I'd say he actually lowers their chances. Simply because they aren't adjusted to him being in the offense. Similarily when he went out they struggled at first because they were used to Westbrook's game.

They need to readjust to his game and high usage.

And I'm really not sure right now if he actually gives them a better chance to win the title. Durant has raised his game this year. Ibaka has too. The emergence of Reggie Jackson at least gives them a servicable PG option.

Everybody on the floor is more passive when Westbrook in the lineup.

EL_MACHETE
02-26-2014, 04:00 PM
Well no matter what I got MAD Respect for Westbrook. I feel that he gets a lot of criticisms because how he plays the game, but what do you expect from people, they got nothing else better to do.


But 'IF' Okc doesn't win this year and their looking to move Westbrook then I would Love if we package him along with Adams and two 1st rounders to the Kings for Cousins and their 1st rounder

Then with the Kings 1st rounder we can draft Marcus Smart(as Westbrook's replacement)

Pg- Smart / Jackson
Sg- Lamb / Roberson
Sf- Durant / Jones
Pf- Ibaka / Collison
C- Cousins / Thabeet

( That's my opinion tho if things didn't work out )

SPURSFAN1
02-26-2014, 04:09 PM
I'm amazed 14 people voted yes. hahahahahahaha. Why would the thunder get 3 scrubs for a superstar?

ghettosean
02-26-2014, 04:11 PM
I voted yes and NOT because I think they are better without Westbrook but because I think they need to trade him and get better fitting pieces around Durant maybe a Center who's not a useless pylon like Perkins or something like that. I don't think I saw one person (including the OP) saying Westbrook is a terrible player it's just that he doesn't fit well with Durant because they are both trying to be #1 on the team.

All I have to say is Durant is deffering a bit when Westbrook is around.... I'm not sure why maybe he's just too nice a guy but in my opinion Durant should not defer to ANY player in the NBA not even if he was playing with Lebron. He is flat out the best scorer in the league and if Westbrooks prescence is making him take a step back from being the dominant scorer or hesitate to take shots then Westy's got to go and I'm sure there are a ton of teams that are willing to give great value back in a trade for him.

Both Westbrook and Durant need to be the #1 option on a team in my opinion for them to be successful not 1A and 1B.

SPURSFAN1
02-26-2014, 04:28 PM
I voted yes and NOT because I think they are better without Westbrook but because I think they need to trade him and get better fitting pieces around Durant maybe a Center who's not a useless pylon like Perkins or something like that. I don't think I saw one person (including the OP) saying Westbrook is a terrible player it's just that he doesn't fit well with Durant because they are both trying to be #1 on the team.

All I have to say is Durant is deffering a bit when Westbrook is around.... I'm not sure why maybe he's just too nice a guy but in my opinion Durant should not defer to ANY player in the NBA not even if he was playing with Lebron. He is flat out the best scorer in the league and if Westbrooks prescence is making him take a step back from being the dominant scorer or hesitate to take shots then Westy's got to go and I'm sure there are a ton of teams that are willing to give great value back in a trade for him.

Both Westbrook and Durant need to be the #1 option on a team in my opinion for them to be successful not 1A and 1B.

You aren't going to find any better fits that westbrook.

Jamiecballer
02-26-2014, 04:30 PM
You aren't going to find any better fits that westbrook.

really? are there no point guards in the league left who don't dominate the ball? did i miss something? what a silly thing to say.

poleandreel
02-26-2014, 04:53 PM
really? are there no point guards in the league left who don't dominate the ball? did i miss something? what a silly thing to say.

Have you not watched the Clippers, boston ever, or any team besides the timberwolves? Just because a point guard is pass first doesn't mean they aren't ball dominant. Rubio is probably the exception but his offense is so horrible that I would no want him in any deal for Westbrook. Do people also forget that Rubio had a devastating knee injury while Russ only had a minor one?

CP3 is one of the most ball dominant guards in the league, as is Rondo. Remember Griffin without Paul?

I've watched every single OKC game for the past 5 years...Russ defers to KD in the 4th all the time. If KD has it going, Russ passes it to him on 9/10 plays. But you have to realize that Russ is better than 99% of the players who guard him and so he also has an advantage most nights. Why pass when you have an advantage as well?

There is a give and take. They made it to the finals together and the had the best record in the West last year together. I'm pretty sure they work fine together.

Enough with these stupid ****ing threads.

Jamiecballer
02-26-2014, 05:04 PM
Have you not watched the Clippers, boston ever, or any team besides the timberwolves? Just because a point guard is pass first doesn't mean they aren't ball dominant. Rubio is probably the exception but his offense is so horrible that I would no want him in any deal for Westbrook. Do people also forget that Rubio had a devastating knee injury while Russ only had a minor one?

CP3 is one of the most ball dominant guards in the league, as is Rondo. Remember Griffin without Paul?

I've watched every single OKC game for the past 5 years...Russ defers to KD in the 4th all the time. If KD has it going, Russ passes it to him on 9/10 plays. But you have to realize that Russ is better than 99% of the players who guard him and so he also has an advantage most nights. Why pass when you have an advantage as well?

There is a give and take. They made it to the finals together and the had the best record in the West last year together. I'm pretty sure they work fine together.

Enough with these stupid ****ing threads.

because as talented as Westbrook is Durant absolutely destroys Westbrook's efficiency, that's why. if Westbrook was a highly efficient scorer you would have a good point.

and yes, i realize Chris Paul is pretty ball dominant. i didn't suggest Chris Paul though so i'm not sure why you pointed that out.

tredigs
02-26-2014, 05:14 PM
Westbrook was #2 in Usage the past two seasons (to Kobe and Melo), and would be #1 this season (over KD) if he had qualified minutes. The first PG on the list this year would be Kyrie at 10th. Westbrook has a 33% Usage in comparison to CP3 at 23% (there are other factors in being ball dominant, but this is an important stat to note here).

He bites off more than he should on occasion (too many occasions). I love Westbrook's game for the most part, but I thought this was accepted as fact at this point. It is a serious issue with his/their game that has not improved (the only thing that has truly improved in OKC is the players themselves).

If they had started the year together, I think a team with Curry, CP3 and even Dragic complement KD better and give OKC a better chance at winning a title this season. That's not really a knock on Westbrook to say he's not the exact perfect fit for a team. Most players aren't.

sammyvine
02-26-2014, 05:16 PM
Westbrook is a brat player but he doesnt fit well with Durant imo. I have been thinking this for years....

He may be better than Harden, Curry, Rondo etc....but I think those 3 would fit better. He has a low iq for a player that good. Derrick Rose and Durant would be a good fit. I don't think Rose would chuck up shots if he had a legit player like Durant.

Jamiecballer
02-26-2014, 05:20 PM
Westbrook was #2 in Usage the past two seasons (to Kobe and Melo), and would be #1 this season (over KD) if he had qualified minutes. The first PG on the list this year would be Kyrie at 10th. Westbrook has a 33% Usage in comparison to CP3 at 23% (there are other factors in being ball dominant, but this is an important stat to note here).

He bites off more than he should on occasion (too many occasions). I love Westbrook's game for the most part, but I thought this was accepted as fact at this point. It is a serious issue with his/their game that has not improved (the only thing that has truly improved in OKC is the players themselves).

If they had started the year together, I think a team with Curry, CP3 and even Dragic complement KD better and give OKC a better chance at winning a title this season. That's not really a knock on Westbrook to say he's not the exact perfect fit for a team. Most players aren't.

add Lowry if his play this season is the real deal

beyourself
02-26-2014, 11:22 PM
Durant played 10 more minutes than Russell, but Westbrook had more possessions.

TorontoHuskies
02-26-2014, 11:28 PM
Yup they just lost to a Cavs team without Waiters and Varejo.

EL_MACHETE
02-26-2014, 11:30 PM
Smh

P&GRealist
02-26-2014, 11:31 PM
Yup they just lost to a Cavs team without Waiters and Varejo.

They give up 42 pts to an offensively challenged Cavs team in the 4th qtr.

How is that Westbrook's fault?

beyourself
02-26-2014, 11:32 PM
They give up 42 pts to an offensively challenged Cavs team in the 4th qtr.

How is that Westbrook's fault?

Part of it is because I watched the game and Russell played like ***** on defense.

Jarvo
02-26-2014, 11:48 PM
They lost again tonight, Can't wait to see how ESPN and the rest of the media talk down on them. Durant & Westbrook need each other just how others said already look gow bad OKC looked in the playoffs without him.

poleandreel
02-26-2014, 11:51 PM
Posted these in the game thread.

Russ has the best +/ on the team today, has made a ton of great passes, and has played excellent defense. KD has missed 2 of his last 3 shots as well. Russ made a pass to Ibaka for an easy finish that he missed.

We shot 50% from the field and hit 14 threes. You lose when you give up 110 points at home to the Cavaliers. Has absolutely nothing to do with our offense.

Russ has 22/8 on 50% fg, 100% ft, and good defense, yet PSD will say it's his fault lololol

How about giving up 112 at home to Cleveland?

Because he played part of his minutes with the 2nd unit and should take shots? Why didn't KD take shots from the 5:30 mark in the 1st to the 7 minutes mark in the second while westbrook was resting? It literally had nothing to do with Westbrook. KD got his shots while Russ was in, but was passive when he was in with the bench.

Like I said, you're immature and don't know anything if you think OKC lost because of Russ, or KD, or them not working together. They lost because they have up 113 at home to the Cavs.

We shot 50% from the field and hit 14 threes. The loss has NOTHING to do with the offense.

First of all, the correct phrase is "fewer possessions" not "less possessions". And that has nothing to do with taking shots from KD. KD went passive when he was in with the bench unit when he should have taken shots. I watched OKC go to KD 7/8 trips in the 3rd quarter. It's not like he doesn't get chances to take shots.

In fact, there was one stretch where Russ posted up 3x in a row and all 3 times he found an open guy (Ibaka, Fisher, Jackson) for a score. On the next play down KD demanded them ball (and got it) even though the plays Russ were doing were working. Again, has nothing to do with the offense.

If you can't understand that, may god have mercy on your soul.

amos1er
02-26-2014, 11:57 PM
WOW!!! Lost to the freakin Cavs. This is going to be a serious problem. If they don't at least get to the finals this year Westbrook has got to go. I'm down to do a Gasol for Westbrook swap though. Would be great for both teams IMO. Then trade Perkins for a decent PG and the Thunder are lookin real good. Would love to have Westbrook on the Lakers for sure. Then pick up Kevin Love in the 2015 off season. Would be great...

PG: Westbrook
SG: Exum
SF: Kobe
PF: Wiggins
C: Love

Coach: Phil Jackson

:hope:

beyourself
02-26-2014, 11:57 PM
You're an idiot. He played great defense actually...

Kyrie had his way with Sefalosha, and Jackson played like ****. STFU about okc and get a life. Westbrook >>> any on your team.

I'm an OKC fan. Yes Westbrook played like **** on defense tonight. He also somehow managed to take 17 shots in under 30 minutes. That's too many shots. He shouldn't be leading the NBA in USG% as a PG with Durant on his team. That's some ********.

amos1er
02-26-2014, 11:59 PM
I'm an OKC fan. Yes Westbrook played like **** on defense tonight. He also somehow managed to take 17 shots in under 30 minutes. That's too many shots. He shouldn't be leading the NBA in USG% as a PG with Durant on his team. That's some Bullshiit.

Yup, too bad the trade deadline is over. Westy needs to go. Hopefully to the Lakers. :)

blystr2002
02-27-2014, 12:02 AM
Dallas (Dirk was the only star, the rest were above average role players) and Lakers (Kobe star, Pau all star, rest above average) since those were the last two teams to do it.

Throughout history there is a ton more.

Kobe didn't win by himself. Pau wasn't just an all star you could argue he was the best PF in the league those 2 years or at least top 3 and definitely the most skilled. That is like disregarding Pippen and saying Jordan won by himself or Lebron without Bosh. The fact is yes it has been done, but history has shown that it is much rarer and the vast majority of championship teams the last 30 or so years have had multiple all star players paired with their superstar. You don't win by yourself without very good players around you in the NBA.

beyourself
02-27-2014, 12:06 AM
Kyrie had his shot going for him tonight and he's got a pretty green light.

I said it in the gamethread before the game even started that this would be disaster for OKC and Westbrook would ball hog.

Westbrook will freeze in hell before he lets another PG win the PG matchup. Even though as PG's they really shouldn't be shooting that much anyways.

Raymond Felton said Westbrook cares more about his own personal matchup instead of the team.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-27-2014, 12:23 AM
In that case, wade and bosh are lebron's kryptonite. as usual, Amos you're full of ****

EL_MACHETE
02-27-2014, 12:24 AM
Get off Okc's Nuts.
Worry about your own team.

We lost because we played BAD defense, But we'll adjust and learn from it

Have Faith!

beyourself
02-27-2014, 12:27 AM
In that case, wade and bosh are lebron's kryptonite. as usual, Amos you're full of ****

No. They are his red bull because they aren't trying to out-alpha him. Wade literally went all beta as soon as LeBron got there.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-27-2014, 12:29 AM
No. They are his red bull because they aren't trying to out-alpha him. Wade literally went all beta as soon as LeBron got there.

Wtf kinda ******** is this?
If you don't think that wade and bosh limit lebron's individual productivity, you clearly don't know how to analyze basketball.

Sorry bro.

beyourself
02-27-2014, 12:35 AM
Wtf kinda ******** is this?
If you don't think that wade and bosh limit lebron's individual productivity, you clearly don't know how to analyze basketball.

Sorry bro.

LeBron's efficiency has gone up as a result of them. But that's besides the point. Wade has openly accepted the beta role.

Westbrook refuses to accept that role.

So the difference is huge. Please STFU about LeBron in this thread. Wrong thread.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-27-2014, 12:37 AM
LeBron's efficiency has gone up as a result of them. But that's besides the point. Wade has openly accepted the beta role.

Westbrook refuses to accept that role.

So the difference is huge. Please STFU about LeBron in this thread. Wrong thread.

So.. Are we talking efficiency here or overall production?

Lebron goes from 20-25 FGA to under 20.
Goes from usage of 30+ to just under 30%.

But yeah man, let's go with your logic. lebrons productivity doesn't take a hit lol

:facepalm:

poleandreel
02-27-2014, 12:39 AM
So.. Are we talking efficiency here or overall production?

Lebron goes from 20-25 FGA to under 20.
Goes from usage of 30+ to just under 30%.

But yeah man, let's go with your logic. lebrons productivity doesn't take a hit lol

:facepalm:

No use arguing with this guy, he clearly has an agenda. He has been spewing Westbrook b.s all night even though the guy put up 24/9 tonight on 50% shooting.

beyourself
02-27-2014, 12:41 AM
So.. Are we talking efficiency here or overall production?

Lebron goes from 20-25 FGA to under 20.
Goes from usage of 30+ to just under 30%.

But yeah man, let's go with your logic. lebrons productivity doesn't take a hit lol

:facepalm:

Yes his volume will go down. His efficiency has not though check his FG%.

You're missing the point though. LeBron doesn't have to deal with a lesser player trying to out-alpha him.

SPURSFAN1
02-27-2014, 12:42 AM
Westbrook is a top 10 player. The thunder lost. Who cares. Westbrook is still legit.

mngopher35
02-27-2014, 01:03 AM
The last time the Thunder played a post season with westbrook they made the finals. Last year he was out and they lost to the grizzlies with Durant and Ibaka struggling (other factors too but this definitely played a part). I am not going to say that because of a 1.5 month stretch in the regular season by durant that it means Westbrook is not needed on that team. Playoffs are a whole different story and they would be in trouble again if he was injured.

Now what I will say is that Durant has shown this season that he has improved from last year and is probably more capable to face that same situation better. Westbrook should take the 2nd option role. Still though without Westbrook I bet they don't make it out of the west.

Westbrook seems to always take the blame and I'm not completely sure why. I guess it is because Durant is a fan favorite "good guy". Westbrook has his issues no doubt but he is a top 10 player when healthy who helps this team a lot. He might not be the perfect fit but he will be a huge help when it matters (assuming he's healthy).

beyourself
02-27-2014, 01:45 PM
You guys should listen to George Karl. He said the Thunder losing the past 3 games with Westbrook back is NOT a coincidence. They are struggling on defense especially perimeter defense and are totally out of rhythm on offense.

Since he returned the Thunder have played at a pace that would lead the league over a full season. Basically they are playing like the 76ers with Westbrook.

He needs to slow the hell down. His game is some ******** right now.

D-Leethal
02-27-2014, 01:55 PM
WOW!!! Lost to the freakin Cavs. This is going to be a serious problem. If they don't at least get to the finals this year Westbrook has got to go. I'm down to do a Gasol for Westbrook swap though. Would be great for both teams IMO. Then trade Perkins for a decent PG and the Thunder are lookin real good. Would love to have Westbrook on the Lakers for sure. Then pick up Kevin Love in the 2015 off season. Would be great...

PG: Westbrook
SG: Exum
SF: Kobe
PF: Wiggins
C: Love

Coach: Phil Jackson

:hope:

LMFAO. I thought you were talking about Marc Gasol. But Pau? GTFO.

amos1er
02-27-2014, 07:18 PM
LMFAO. I thought you were talking about Marc Gasol. But Pau? GTFO.

Hey, I guy can dream can't he. Besides, what better options for Westbrook are out there other than Gasol. Would you rather trade for 3 scrubs and a draft pick? Pau is at least proven and unselfish enough to let KD do his thing.

mngopher35
02-27-2014, 08:42 PM
Hey, I guy can dream can't he. Besides, what better options for Westbrook are out there other than Gasol. Would you rather trade for 3 scrubs and a draft pick? Pau is at least proven and unselfish enough to let KD do his thing.

a 24 year old pg considered to be about a top 10 player compared to a a 33 year old pf/center who clearly isn't the same player as his prime?

I think a lot of teams could/would offer more than that.

amos1er
02-27-2014, 10:12 PM
a 24 year old pg considered to be about a top 10 player compared to a a 33 year old pf/center who clearly isn't the same player as his prime?

I think a lot of teams could/would offer more than that.

Ok ok... We'll throw in Jordan Hill plus a second rounder. Besides, I bet Gasol would be a much better fit for Durant than Westbrook would. Who cares where the player ranks when it would be a beneficial trade for both parties. Who besides Gasol is even available to trade for Westbrook that is as good? Westbrook also has a history of injuries too. Have to factor that in.

mngopher35
02-27-2014, 10:23 PM
Ok ok... We'll throw in Jordan Hill plus a second rounder. Besides, I bet Gasol would be a much better fit for Durant than Westbrook would. Who cares where the player ranks when it would be a beneficial trade for both parties. Who besides Gasol is even available to trade for Westbrook that is as good? Westbrook also has a history of injuries too. Have to factor that in.

Wolves would likely offer anything but Love, so let's say Rubio, Martin (or pretty much any wing of their choice), and Pek for Westy and Perkins. I think there would be better offers than that as well.

Gasol would not be an upgrade from Westbrook, even though he isn't a perfect fit. I am not sure if you are being serious that they can't get better/more?

amos1er
02-27-2014, 10:40 PM
Wolves would likely offer anything but Love, so let's say Rubio, Martin (or pretty much any wing of their choice), and Pek for Westy and Perkins. I think there would be better offers than that as well.

Gasol would not be an upgrade from Westbrook, even though he isn't a perfect fit. I am not sure if you are being serious that they can't get better/more?

Westbrook is far from "not the perfect fit". Durant's game has just gone so far up that Westbrooks usage is literally hurting the team now. Gasol is still a top big man in the game IMO and one of the most unselfish players in the NBA. He is a better fit to go on that Thunder team than anyone who is actually available to be traded for an injury prone Westbrook. Rubio is good, but Martin is just filler junk. I would rather have Gasol than Rubio and Martin for sure. Gasol can still drop 20 and 10 on any given night, plus he is a championship caliber player. Perhaps we throw in Henry or Swaggy P to sweeten the deal. ;)

Jamiecballer
02-27-2014, 10:54 PM
Wolves would likely offer anything but Love, so let's say Rubio, Martin (or pretty much any wing of their choice), and Pek for Westy and Perkins. I think there would be better offers than that as well.

Gasol would not be an upgrade from Westbrook, even though he isn't a perfect fit. I am not sure if you are being serious that they can't get better/more?

that would be a terrible decision for the Wolves though. instead of Westbrook taking shots away from Durant now he's taking them away from Love. and Minnesota loses 2 good players for the priviledge. if there was an emoticon on here for taking it up the *** i would insert it here.

amos1er
02-27-2014, 10:57 PM
that would be a terrible decision for the Wolves though. instead of Westbrook taking shots away from Durant now he's taking them away from Love. and Minnesota loses 2 good players for the priviledge. if there was an emoticon on here for taking it up the *** i would insert it here.

Yup... Notice how I said players that teams would "actually trade". Gasol has to be one of the best options available. I truly think that would put the Thunder over the top. Durant could easily win a ring in OKC before he leaves for the Lakers in 2016.

mngopher35
02-27-2014, 11:21 PM
that would be a terrible decision for the Wolves though. instead of Westbrook taking shots away from Durant now he's taking them away from Love. and Minnesota loses 2 good players for the priviledge. if there was an emoticon on here for taking it up the *** i would insert it here.

I would make that trade as a wolves fan. It would give us a better chance to keep Love imo and anytime you can get a 2nd top 10 player (especially when you are currently middle of the pack) you do it. Yes we might have a couple of extra holes but where are we going right now?

mngopher35
02-27-2014, 11:29 PM
Westbrook is far from "not the perfect fit". Durant's game has just gone so far up that Westbrooks usage is literally hurting the team now. Gasol is still a top big man in the game IMO and one of the most unselfish players in the NBA. He is a better fit to go on that Thunder team than anyone who is actually available to be traded for an injury prone Westbrook. Rubio is good, but Martin is just filler junk. I would rather have Gasol than Rubio and Martin for sure. Gasol can still drop 20 and 10 on any given night, plus he is a championship caliber player. Perhaps we throw in Henry or Swaggy P to sweeten the deal. ;)

He is also very old which doesn't fit with Durant who has many years to compete. Westbrook has many years to grow and continue to compete with Durant as they hit their peak together. Feel free to make a poll on if the Thunder should accept a trade of Pau for Westbrook. I think outside of Laker fans a large, large majority would say no. It makes very little sense for them.

poleandreel
02-27-2014, 11:35 PM
Yup... Notice how I said players that teams would "actually trade". Gasol has to be one of the best options available. I truly think that would put the Thunder over the top. Durant could easily win a ring in OKC before he leaves for the Lakers in 2016.

You are literally an idiot. NOBODY WANTS GASOL. The lakers couldn't find a single good deal for him before the deadline because nobody wants him or would give even a late first for him.

He makes $20mm and puts up 14/8 on awful shooting for a bigman. His defense sucks and he is 33. GTFO with this...

EL_MACHETE
02-28-2014, 12:47 AM
WTF!
Gasol for Westbrook???? Your A Mook!

Why trade for him when we can just sign him in the off season

amos1er
02-28-2014, 01:01 AM
WTF!
Gasol for Westbrook???? Your A Mook!

Why trade for him when we can just sign him in the off season

Ughhhh... Over the cap.

amos1er
02-28-2014, 01:03 AM
You are literally an idiot. NOBODY WANTS GASOL. The lakers couldn't find a single good deal for him before the deadline because nobody wants him or would give even a late first for him.

He makes $20mm and puts up 14/8 on awful shooting for a bigman. His defense sucks and he is 33. GTFO with this...

He won't be making $20mm next season, he will be a free agent and the Lakers have his Birds Rights. Ever heard of sign and trade? :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
02-28-2014, 01:06 AM
that would be a terrible decision for the Wolves though. instead of Westbrook taking shots away from Durant now he's taking them away from Love. and Minnesota loses 2 good players for the priviledge. if there was an emoticon on here for taking it up the *** i would insert it here.

Westbrook is a top 10 player and Love's very good friend. Absolutely would be a great deal for the Wolves. Love would re-sign long term most likely, and we would have 2 top 5-10 players.

Trust me, he wouldn't be taking shots from Love, he would be taking them from the rest of the roster he would replace.

Rubio-Pek-1st rounder-contract filler for Westbrook-Perkins is a win for both teams.

mngopher35
02-28-2014, 01:15 AM
Westbrook is a top 10 player and Love's very good friend. Absolutely would be a great deal for the Wolves. Love would re-sign long term most likely, and we would have 2 top 5-10 players.

Trust me, he wouldn't be taking shots from Love, he would be taking them from the rest of the roster he would replace.

Rubio-Pek-1st rounder-contract filler for Westbrook-Perkins is a win for both teams.

Yup, completely agree. Well, I'm not sure if Thunder fans think it is a win for them but from our perspective it is (and I think a good argument can be made that it would work for them).

Jamiecballer
02-28-2014, 08:14 AM
Westbrook is a top 10 player and Love's very good friend. Absolutely would be a great deal for the Wolves. Love would re-sign long term most likely, and we would have 2 top 5-10 players.

Trust me, he wouldn't be taking shots from Love, he would be taking them from the rest of the roster he would replace.

Rubio-Pek-1st rounder-contract filler for Westbrook-Perkins is a win for both teams.

well you are the Wolves fans but i think it would be a decision that would ultimately be very regrettable. i can understand how keeping Kevin Love happy is high on your list of priorities though. do we know if he has any other friends in the NBA?

beyourself
02-28-2014, 11:38 PM
Except for that little stretch halfway through the 4th where Westbrook looked like he wanted to go superman he was boss tonight. Best game of I've seen him have in a really long time.

Key stat tonight for him. 7-12 shooting. Efficient and lower volume.

He does this regularly and Thunder should roll.

IKnowHoops
03-01-2014, 12:04 AM
well you are the Wolves fans but i think it would be a decision that would ultimately be very regrettable. i can understand how keeping Kevin Love happy is high on your list of priorities though. do we know if he has any other friends in the NBA?

I love this move for the T-Wolves. The wolves are not a good team. Westbrook would be such an upgrade to the talent they have. Westy would be able to really realize his potential as well because though Love needs his shots, he doesn't need or warrant as many as Durant. They would be a good offensive force with those two, and could fill in around those two. Both would, could, and should be expected to shoot 20 plus times a game. Can only be a plus for the Timberwolves given there history, there need to keep love and just there overall current roster situation.

EL_MACHETE
03-01-2014, 11:21 AM
Ughhhh... Over the cap.

Use the Amnesty clause on Perkins, don't resign Sefo and ask Gasol to take a pay cut

beyourself
03-01-2014, 01:21 PM
Durant realizing his team needs to him to shoot? Durant realizing that Westbrook should pull back the reins.

Durant made 10 of 15 shots and all eight of his free throws after halftime to help the Thunder hold off a furious rally.

"I just told myself to be aggressive, to score," said Durant, the NBA's scoring leader. "That's all I said to myself at half. I was frustrated with the shots I was taking. I felt that I wasn't disciplined. I worked my fundamentals. I just wanted to be aggressive to score. I think that's what my team needed."

From ESPN.



Westbrook is resistant though.

"We won, that's what I'm going to take from it," Westbrook said. "We lost three in a row. We just won."

Again from ESPN.

beyourself
03-01-2014, 01:26 PM
Westbrook is a top 10 player and Love's very good friend. Absolutely would be a great deal for the Wolves. Love would re-sign long term most likely, and we would have 2 top 5-10 players.

Trust me, he wouldn't be taking shots from Love, he would be taking them from the rest of the roster he would replace.

Rubio-Pek-1st rounder-contract filler for Westbrook-Perkins is a win for both teams.

This is totally hypothetical, but I disagree. Westbrook is the most ball dominant player we have seen in a long time. He always has the ball. He leads the league in USG% as a PG which could put him among the most ball dominant players in NBA history.

LJEATON26
03-01-2014, 03:06 PM
Westbrook is a top 10 player and Love's very good friend. Absolutely would be a great deal for the Wolves. Love would re-sign long term most likely, and we would have 2 top 5-10 players.

Trust me, he wouldn't be taking shots from Love, he would be taking them from the rest of the roster he would replace.

Rubio-Pek-1st rounder-contract filler for Westbrook-Perkins is a win for both teams.

No thank you. Rubio is completely overrated and over hyped. Is he even allowed to play down the stretch anymore?

Anutda1
03-03-2014, 07:20 PM
Your making this harder than it has too be. Its been Clear that in order to win you have to have at least two stars or one star and two players on the verg of becoming stars. Durant is clearly the least selfish out of the two players more of the ball handling duties need to be place on Durant rather than Westbrook so that he can play the role of second scorer while Durant continues to get most of the touches due to doing most of the ball handling. With Westbrook play and durant doing most of the ball handing he could easly be averaging 6-7 assist a game while still getting his points and allowing Westbrook to get his

Anutda1
03-03-2014, 07:23 PM
No thank you. Rubio is completely overrated and over hyped. Is he even allowed to play down the stretch anymore?

That would be a terrible trade for the Thunder if the GM ever brought that up to the owner he should be fired on the spot.

Hawkeye15
03-03-2014, 07:24 PM
No thank you. Rubio is completely overrated and over hyped. Is he even allowed to play down the stretch anymore?

he is now. It would offer you a pass first PG, and a huge upgrade at center. Its obvious Westbrook limits Durant. I just think it could be a better fit long term is all.

treglip
03-03-2014, 07:32 PM
westbrook is a beast but i do feel like he is not a team player. He has always shown that he wants to be "that" guy, but KD is "that" guy and it shows that it irks westbrook in his plat AT times, not always but AT times it does. Unfortunately those times are usually when it's crunch time

sunsfan88
03-07-2014, 02:30 AM
He kept them in the game today.

DatDude19
03-07-2014, 09:05 AM
Westbrook cares more about individual stats while Durant is about doing what it takes to get his team the W.


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poleandreel
03-07-2014, 09:16 AM
Westbrook cares more about individual stats while Durant is about doing what it takes to get his team the W.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, if anything, Durant is the one who wanted so badly to get that 50/40/90 season that he didn't shoot any end of the quarter heaves last season.

On the other hand, if Westbrook is not on, he keeps shooting, driving, passing, rebounding, and playing pesty D in order to get the win.

Besides Kobe, Westbrook the the most competitive player in the NBA. There is a reason that Kobe loves him.

beyourself
03-07-2014, 10:52 AM
Actually, if anything, Durant is the one who wanted so badly to get that 50/40/90 season that he didn't shoot any end of the quarter heaves last season.

On the other hand, if Westbrook is not on, he keeps shooting, driving, passing, rebounding, and playing pesty D in order to get the win.

Besides Kobe, Westbrook the the most competitive player in the NBA. There is a reason that Kobe loves him.

You're saying Durant not taking a 1/500 chance shot is him playing for stats? Get real man.

You really gonna try and spin this on Durant aren't you?

beyourself
03-07-2014, 10:53 AM
Again I'd love to see what pace the Thunder have played at since Westbrook's return. I don't know where to find something like that, but I would love to see it.

We've been playing a lot faster and crazier once he returned and it hurts our defense.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 12:24 PM
Again I'd love to see what pace the Thunder have played at since Westbrook's return. I don't know where to find something like that, but I would love to see it.

We've been playing a lot faster and crazier once he returned and it hurts our defense.

First of all, those types of shots are not 1/500. At worst they are like 1/30. Second, it doesn't matter what the % of making it is because if it goes in, your chance of winning increases. If you miss, it's the same as not taking it...and you add 0% to your expected chance of winning.

I don't care that KD didn't take those shots, but to say it doesn't indicate that he cared more about his own stats in those instances is just being biased. Again, I love KD, he's amazing but the amount of pass he gets is such a joke.

And as for the pace...it's easy to calculate yourself. But pace doesn't matter. It's about efficiency. Since coming back, our offensive efficiency has increase, therefore he is making our offense better.

Our defense has been affected because Perkins and sefalosha are out. Perkins, as much as people love to hate him, is ranked #2 in the NBA in defensive fg% at the rim, among qualified players. He never misses rotations, and communicates on defense. The passed 3 games, KD has been getting beat like I've never seen before. He has improved so much defensively to be considered a + defender npw, so these lapses are not forgivable.

He is also turning it over more often than he was previously. Looks like he's trying to force it too often to keep his playmaker mantra going. He's there to score, not pass to force a pass to Sefalosha.

Anyway, we've gotten better since Russells return. The loses are due to **** defense, alot of which, can be explained by the loss of our 2 best defenders.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 12:38 PM
Or theres the third, very popular option: the juuuuuuust-a-split-second-too-late halfcourt heave. You know, give the appearance youre shooting it but oh darn it, the buzzer went off before I let it go so it doesnt count.

It actually became enough of an issue with the Thunder that Scott Brooks felt the need to address it with the team this season.

We talked about it, about seven weeks ago maybe, couple months ago, and we talked about it, Brooks said. I said We have to shoot that shot. Theres still time in the game shoot it. The only time we dont shoot it is if were up and its the last seconds because you dont want to do that.

We had that talk and somebody on our team did not take it that same night, and then we all got on him, he said. The next night, somebody made that shot.

Every player I asked about it remembered Brooks talk right away.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 12:39 PM
You're saying Durant not taking a 1/500 chance shot is him playing for stats? Get real man.

You really gonna try and spin this on Durant aren't you?

I also assume you never seen this. Blatantly showing that one cares about stats and the other doesn't.

"Kevin Durant: It depends on what Im shooting from the field. First quarter if Im 4-for-4, I let it go. Third quarter if Im like 10-for-16, or 10-for-17, I might let it go. But if Im like 8-for-19, Im going to go ahead and dribble one more second and let that buzzer go off and then throw it up there. So it depends on how the games going.

Russell Westbrook: No. Nope If I was considering about [statistics] Id do a lot of **** different.

http://dailythunder.com/2013/02/to-heave-or-not-heave/

beyourself
03-07-2014, 12:46 PM
You are missing the point. The fastest pace played in the NBA is by the 76ers, a completely dysfunctional team especially on defense.

Jordan played on the slowest pace team in the league for numerous years.

Again I'm interested to see the pace we play at since Westbrook's return.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 12:51 PM
You are missing the point. The fastest pace played in the NBA is by the 76ers, a completely dysfunctional team especially on defense.

Jordan played on the slowest pace team in the league for numerous years.

Again I'm interested to see the pace we play at since Westbrook's return.

No, you're missing the point. Westbrook comes back, the pace is slightly increased (not even a material change), our offense gets better and more efficient. He was the only one playing defense last night. Perkins and Sefo being out are causing lapses defensively that are usually not there because they are intelligent defenders and make up for other players' mistakes.

You have an agenda against Russ, it's pretty obvious. You should consider becoming a fan of another team because he isn't going anywhere and his playing style leads to wins, finals appearances, #1 offenses in the nba, top 3 defenses, etc.

beyourself
03-07-2014, 12:55 PM
No, you're missing the point. Westbrook comes back, the pace is slightly increased (not even a material change), our offense gets better and more efficient. He was the only one playing defense last night. Perkins and Sefo being out are causing lapses defensively that are usually not there because they are intelligent defenders and make up for other players' mistakes.

You have an agenda against Russ, it's pretty obvious. You should consider becoming a fan of another team because he isn't going anywhere and his playing style leads to wins, finals appearances, #1 offenses in the nba, top 3 defenses, etc.

His first three games back (all losses) and we had the fastest pace in the league. I head that in the broadcast during his 4th game back.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 01:04 PM
His first three games back (all losses) and we had the fastest pace in the league. I head that in the broadcast during his 4th game back.

I really don't think you understand pace or how it impacts a game. OKC has been top 5 in pace in the NBA for the past 4 years and top 5 in defense for the past 3 years...

It doesn't have as much influence as you think it does.

What kind of logical, intelligent human being would blame any of the recent losses on Russell? I've been on psd for 7 years and can tell from experience that there are a VERY few competent people on this site who are able to formulate a rational thought that isn't a knee jerk reaction or ESPN spoon fed thought. 99% of the others don't have any idea what they're talking about.

How many people on here said break up the Heat when they were 9/8 in their first season together. Most. It was clearly a dumb thought but it didn't stop people from spewing that nonsense.

How many people said Lebron would never win a ring? Most.

How many people said LBJ would never leave cleveland? Most.

How many people said Dirk was soft and a choker? Most.

How many people said lebron wasn't clutch for years? Most, despite every stat saying he was clutch.

How many people thought Kobe was best in the NBA at one point, when he probably never was? Most.

How many people on here thought Kobe was better than Lebron because of rings? A ton until a few years ago.

Point is, I don't give a **** what people on here say. Most of the posters are not intelligent and just say asinine things that should not even be read.

beyourself
03-07-2014, 01:11 PM
I really don't think you understand pace or how it impacts a game. OKC has been top 5 in pace in the NBA for the past 4 years and top 5 in defense for the past 3 years...





Uh Oh.... you provided false information.

Just last year we were tied for 9th in pace. We were 13th in 2010-2011. We were 11th in 2009-2011


By the way we'd be playing even slower (a better pace for this team) without Westbrook being so aggressive.

I can deal with people debating me and disagreeing. I can't deal with falsifying/lying about data just prove your point.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 01:24 PM
Uh Oh.... you provided false information.

Just last year we were tied for 9th in pace. We were 13th in 2010-2011. We were 11th in 2009-2011


By the way we'd be playing even slower (a better pace for this team) without Westbrook being so aggressive.

I can deal with people debating me and disagreeing. I can't deal with falsifying/lying about data just prove your point.

First of all, I was not lying. I was going by average pace per starting lineup. OKC starters play at a top 5 pace average over the past 3 years.

Here are some other stats for you:

2014 NBA season: 9th in pace overall, 5th in offensive efficiency

Since Russ came back: 6th in pace overall, 1st in offensive efficiency.

95 pace before, 97.5 now.

You should also look at the teams we've played during this stretch...Miami, Clippers, Phoenix, Philly. All teams that play at a much higher pace than us, therefore, there is OBVIOUSLY going to be some inflated pace numbers.

But, of course, you won't realize this because you don't understand anything.

http://www.nbastuffer.com/2013-2014_NBA_Regular_Season_Advanced_Stats.html

ManRam
03-07-2014, 01:39 PM
I hope someday Russ gets to shine as the main man on his own team...

These narratives drive me NUTS.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 01:42 PM
I hope someday Russ gets to shine as the main man on his own team...

These narratives drive me NUTS.

It's even worse when he's on your favorite team, you watch him play every game for 5.5 years and clearly he makes your team better, yet people still like to say uneducated things about him not fitting with the team. It's a good thing Presti, one of the smartest GM's in the NBA, runs this team. No chance he lets Russ go.

beyourself
03-07-2014, 02:12 PM
I hope someday Russ gets to shine as the main man on his own team...

These narratives drive me NUTS.

He's already trying to be. He has a higher USG% consistently ever year than the best scorer in the league and probably top 2 scorer in the history of NBA basketball.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 02:17 PM
He's already trying to be. He has a higher USG% consistently ever year than the best scorer in the league and probably top 2 scorer in the history of NBA basketball.

Go look at how Usage rate is calculated. Russ brings the ball up...of course he is going to have a higher usage rate. He also plays fewer minutes than KD usually...that, based on the math, inflates his usage.

ghettosean
03-07-2014, 02:18 PM
I hope someday Russ gets to shine as the main man on his own team...

These narratives drive me NUTS.

The thing is no one is saying that Westbrook is garbage or crap all they are saying including myself is that he's not an ideal fit next to Durant. They are both Alpha dogs but Durant should not defer to anyone in the league... Put Lebron on that squad and Durant should not defer to him... This is really what I think. Thunder should trade Westy for another star or good pieces that would fit better next to Durant (maybe a center who can score and is not useless like Perkins and something else) cause this combo doesn't seem to be working out to well. I hope I'm proven wrong because I like both players but I think Westbrook should be the star of his own team and same with Durant.

beyourself
03-07-2014, 02:23 PM
]Go look at how Usage rate is calculated. Russ brings the ball up...of course he is going to have a higher usage rate.[/B] He also plays fewer minutes than KD usually...that, based on the math, inflates his usage.

WTF? So because you are are Point Guard you should have a higher USG rate? No that's not true. All the top USG rates in history belong to wings, not PG's.

beyourself
03-07-2014, 02:25 PM
Also Westbrook is going nowhere. He signed an extension and nobody will give you fair value for him.

I'd say 3 first rounders is a good deal. Or straight up Noah for WB or Lillard for WB would be fair value, but in the end he's not going to be traded because you won't get fair value.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 02:29 PM
The thing is no one is saying that Westbrook is garbage or crap all they are saying including myself is that he's not an ideal fit next to Durant. They are both Alpha dogs but Durant should not defer to anyone in the league... Put Lebron on that squad and Durant should not defer to him... This is really what I think. Thunder should trade Westy for another star or good pieces that would fit better next to Durant (maybe a center who can score and is not useless like Perkins and something else) cause this combo doesn't seem to be working out to well. I hope I'm proven wrong because I like both players but I think Westbrook should be the star of his own team and same with Durant.

Please do explain to me how they don't work together? I would love to see this.

Finals appearance, best record in the west last year, best record in NBA this year with him. Top 3 offense every year with him, top defense every year with him. Durant #2 in MVP every year (he get's his shots and touches), Durant leading the league in scoring every year, Durant top 5 in shots every year...

Westbrook is not stopping Durant from getting shots, touches, or anything.

So please, how exactly does this not work?

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 02:31 PM
Also Westbrook is going nowhere. He signed an extension and nobody will give you fair value for him.

I'd say 3 first rounders is a good deal. Or straight up Noah for WB or Lillard for WB would be fair value, but in the end he's not going to be traded because you won't get fair value.

Who in their right mind would trade Westbrook for Lillard? They aren't even comparable. Westbrook is a more complete scorer, wayyy better defender, better rebounder, better passer...etc

Presti would laugh if that offer ever came through and Portland would accept in a second if it was ever offered to them.

And GTFO. Noah for Westbrook is horrendous. I love Noah as much as anyone. But no way in hell do you offer a 25 year old top 10 player for a 28 year old center who has no post moves or a reliable jump shot.

Those are seriously the worst offers I've ever seen.

beyourself
03-07-2014, 02:36 PM
Who in their right mind would trade Westbrook for Lillard? They aren't even comparable. Westbrook is a more complete scorer, wayyy better defender, better rebounder, better passer...etc

Presti would laugh if that offer ever came through and Portland would accept in a second if it was ever offered to them.

And GTFO. Noah for Westbrook is horrendous. I love Noah as much as anyone. But no way in hell do you offer a 25 year old top 10 player for a 28 year old center who has no post moves or a reliable jump shot.

Those are seriously the worst offers I've ever seen.

Bulls need scoring. We don't. Fair trade.

Lillard brings a more pass first mentality from the PG position. We need that.

ManRam
03-07-2014, 02:41 PM
The thing is no one is saying that Westbrook is garbage or crap all they are saying including myself is that he's not an ideal fit next to Durant. They are both Alpha dogs but Durant should not defer to anyone in the league... Put Lebron on that squad and Durant should not defer to him... This is really what I think. Thunder should trade Westy for another star or good pieces that would fit better next to Durant (maybe a center who can score and is not useless like Perkins and something else) cause this combo doesn't seem to be working out to well. I hope I'm proven wrong because I like both players but I think Westbrook should be the star of his own team and same with Durant.

People take it too far though :shrug: If he played with literally anyone else, perhaps even Bron because he's not quite the scorer KD is, he wouldn't get this much flack. I doubt he cares, but it certainly skews the perception of him more than it should.

But it's not just the hate I dislike. Remember after he went down last year...and how the narrative swung ridiculously the other way. "OKC can't win without Russell"..."KD is only as great as he is because of RWB"...etc. People can't think rationally when he's involved. The narratives always suck. No one toes the middle ground.

Yes, he should be a little less trigger happy. But he's still by far the team's second best player, he's a top 7ish player when healthy...and people act like he's a saboteur. They gotta find a happier medium, but the fact that half of the voters here think he's a detriment is ridiculous to me.

KD's volume hasn't dipped a bit since Russell's been back. Russell took a few games to get the rust off, but since then he's been phenomenally great. Small sample size, but since his return there's no reason to scapegoat him like we always do. The offense simply was not as good when he was gone, period. The prior two seasons the Thunder had cumulatively the best offense in the league. He's the point guard for the league's best offense, and people act like he's ruining everything. It's mind blowing. Should he be more self aware? Yes. Should he be a bit more selective? Yes. Is his lack of those two things harming the team in any sort of significant way? Hell no.

There's nothing wrong with having two alpha dogs either :shrug:

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 02:53 PM
Bulls need scoring. We don't. Fair trade.

Lillard brings a more pass first mentality from the PG position. We need that.

Lillard: 25% assist%
Westbrook: 39% assist%

Try again.

And yes, we do need scoring. It's amazing how people say we don't need scoring yet they continually point to the Harden trade as being bad. If we don't need westbrooks scoring, then we definitely didn't need Harden's.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 02:53 PM
People take it too far though :shrug: If he played with literally anyone else, perhaps even Bron because he's not quite the scorer KD is, he wouldn't get this much flack. I doubt he cares, but it certainly skews the perception of him more than it should.

But it's not just the hate I dislike. Remember after he went down last year...and how the narrative swung ridiculously the other way. "OKC can't win without Russell"..."KD is only as great as he is because of RWB"...etc. People can't think rationally when he's involved. The narratives always suck. No one toes the middle ground.

Yes, he should be a little less trigger happy. But he's still by far the team's second best player, he's a top 7ish player when healthy...and people act like he's a saboteur. They gotta find a happier medium, but the fact that half of the voters here think he's a detriment is ridiculous to me.

KD's volume hasn't dipped a bit since Russell's been back. Russell took a few games to get the rust off, but since then he's been phenomenally great. Small sample size, but since his return there's no reason to scapegoat him like we always do. The offense simply was not as good when he was gone, period. The prior two seasons the Thunder had cumulatively the best offense in the league. He's the point guard for the league's best offense, and people act like he's ruining everything. It's mind blowing. Should he be more self aware? Yes. Should he be a bit more selective? Yes. Is his lack of those two things harming the team in any sort of significant way? Hell no.

There's nothing wrong with having two alpha dogs either :shrug:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

mngopher35
03-07-2014, 02:58 PM
Still going with this? Now we are blaming the pace since Westbrook has been playing better? We don't need to start bashing KD's teammates for bringing down his numbers slightly (this happens when other great players join the lineup). That is just going too far. Yes they have lost a few regular season games while Westbrook was getting back into the flow and without 2 other starters. No need to overreact.

Westbrook might not be the perfect fit for Durant but he makes the team so much better overall. I just don't understand why we are having these arguments. The last time Westbrook was healthy for a season they were #1 in SRS. The last time Westbrook was healthy for a playoffs they made the finals.

Edit: Just read Man Ram's post above, well said.

beyourself
03-07-2014, 03:03 PM
What I take from you guys is this. Westbrook shoots too much and should calm it down a little. He's a great player though.

I agree with this, but the problem is he resists. He takes shots that he shouldn't be taking. According to percentage basketball a KD possession is more effective than a Westbrook possession. If Westbrook is wide open then shoot it, I get it though.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 03:49 PM
What I take from you guys is this. Westbrook shoots too much and should calm it down a little. He's a great player though.

I agree with this, but the problem is he resists. He takes shots that he shouldn't be taking. According to percentage basketball a KD possession is more effective than a Westbrook possession. If Westbrook is wide open then shoot it, I get it though.

According to % basketball, Lebron is better off shooting than KD. If they were on the same team, should KD defer to Lebron then? NO.

DatDude19
03-07-2014, 03:56 PM
According to % basketball, Lebron is better off shooting than KD. If they were on the same team, should KD defer to Lebron then? NO.

But Lebron isn't Westbrook either.


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poleandreel
03-07-2014, 04:08 PM
But Lebron isn't Westbrook either.


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That's the point. Westbrook defers to KD ALLLL the time. At the end of games, he gives it to KD on nearly every possession, except in cases where Russ is on fire. Even last night when Russ willed them back into the game with 4 consecutive buckets, he still gave KD the ball 3 times in a row with under 2 and a hald minutes left.

The point is, if Lebron and KD were on the same team, KD should NOT defer to Lebron even though Lebron has better percentages because KD is a better scorer than Lebron.

The same can be said about westbrook. Should he defer to Durant? Yes. But should he defer to the point where he is sacrificing his own offense just to get Durant more touches? NO. Westbrook is a top scorer in this league as well and should exploit matchups and be aggressive.

Just as KD would take plenty of shots if were on a team with Lebron or Jordan, Russ should take shots even though he's on a team with KD.

beyourself
03-07-2014, 04:09 PM
According to % basketball, Lebron is better off shooting than KD. If they were on the same team, should KD defer to Lebron then? NO.

KD has a the superior TS% for his career. He's just slightly behind this year and he can do it with more volume.

I'm done here. You really seem to have no problem with Westbrook's volume. I can't persuade you. You don't want to be. So I give up.

poleandreel
03-07-2014, 04:18 PM
KD has a the superior TS% for his career. He's just slightly behind this year and he can do it with more volume.

I'm done here. You really seem to have no problem with Westbrook's volume. I can't persuade you. You don't want to be. So I give up.

I have no problem because there is no problem. Presti, Brooks, KD, his teammates, all have no problem with it. The team success of making the finals, having the best record, having the best offense and a top defense all support the same theory. No matter how many bad shots Russell takes, no matter how many questionable decisions he makes, he still OVERWHELMINGLY makes the team better, and runs one of the leagues top offenses despite having 2 zeroes in the starting lineup (Perk and Sef).

Russ is doing just fine, and so is OKC. No need to change something that works fine. Nobody was beating Miami that year, so it doesn't matter if Russ took 0 shots and KD took all of them, Miami still would have won.

ManRam
03-07-2014, 04:21 PM
What I take from you guys is this. Westbrook shoots too much and should calm it down a little. He's a great player though.

I agree with this, but the problem is he resists. He takes shots that he shouldn't be taking. According to percentage basketball a KD possession is more effective than a Westbrook possession. If Westbrook is wide open then shoot it, I get it though.

But we get so carried away. If he takes ANY shot late in the game he's ripped apart for it. There's this notion that he needs to defer EVERY TIME. And that's just silly. Yes, he should be a second option. No, he shouldn't always defer, even late in games. His offensive basketball IQ isn't at max levels...but I genuinely think a lot of people pretend like it's the worst in the world. He'd be Derrick Rose if he were heading his own decent team. He needs to know that he can't be, but even still, a top-7 player, even playing with a top-2 player, should be allowed to get shots up. Maybe he needs to be shooting 2 or 3 times less a game, but that's nothing huge, and the OKC offense certainly hasn't suffered because of his play.

Jamiecballer
03-07-2014, 08:53 PM
No, you're missing the point. Westbrook comes back, the pace is slightly increased (not even a material change), our offense gets better and more efficient. He was the only one playing defense last night. Perkins and Sefo being out are causing lapses defensively that are usually not there because they are intelligent defenders and make up for other players' mistakes.

You have an agenda against Russ, it's pretty obvious. You should consider becoming a fan of another team because he isn't going anywhere and his playing style leads to wins, finals appearances, #1 offenses in the nba, top 3 defenses, etc.

That's a joke. Name the last player similar to Westbrook that won a title.

poleandreel
03-08-2014, 12:18 AM
That's a joke. Name the last player similar to Westbrook that won a title.

An aggressive combo guard? How about Kobe 5x, Wade 3x, etc.

beyourself
03-08-2014, 12:48 PM
An aggressive combo guard? How about Kobe 5x, Wade 3x, etc.

Kobe Bryant during the first 3 rings spent exactly zero minutes at the PG position.

During the second two rings he dabbled at the point, but it was such a small minute portion that who really cares.

Kobe is not a combo guard, he is a shooting guard. Same with Wade.

poleandreel
03-08-2014, 12:57 PM
Kobe Bryant during the first 3 rings spent exactly zero minutes at the PG position.

During the second two rings he dabbled at the point, but it was such a small minute portion that who really cares.

Kobe is not a combo guard, he is a shooting guard. Same with Wade.

You're lack of knowledge of basketball is appalling.

A combo guard is a basketball player who combines the attributes of a shooting guard (2) and point guard (1), but does not necessarily fit the standard description of either position. Such guards are usually within the 6'2" to 6'4" (1.88 to 1.93 m) height range.

Dwyane Wade, a shooting guard with point-guard-like ball handling, led the Miami Heat to their first-ever NBA Championship in 2006, and won the Finals MVP award for the same championship series.

Some players, for example Tyreke Evans, Greivis Vasquez, James Harden, Kobe Bryant and Rodney Stuckey, have the requisite size for a shooting guard (around 6'5" or 6'6"), but due to their above-average passing and playmaking ability, are used as combo guards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combo_guard

It has nothing to do with what position they actually play. It has to do with their skillset and how they play the game. A position is a made up title put on a player. Is Lebron a SF? Because he sure brings the ball up every time and runs the offense like a PG. Is he a PG? Because he sure guards the other teams wing player and is taller than most SFs.

Please learn basketball before speaking.

LJEATON26
03-08-2014, 01:02 PM
People need to get off westbrooks jock. Through 7 games his per 36 is 28 points, 10 assists and 7 boards while shooting like 50%, 45% and 90%. He also looks like the only player on the team to be playing any defense.

tredigs
03-08-2014, 01:15 PM
Kobe Bryant during the first 3 rings spent exactly zero minutes at the PG position.

During the second two rings he dabbled at the point, but it was such a small minute portion that who really cares.

Kobe is not a combo guard, he is a shooting guard. Same with Wade.

I'm coming in late to this discussion, but I don't think that's the case. I remember a lot of point-guard (see: point-forward) duties from Kobe in that first slate, especially later in games in the latter years of the 3 peat.

I could be wrong, but I definitely remember quite a bit of Kobe ball handling/playmaking duties. He was the pendulum of that O when it wasn't in the paint.

beyourself
03-08-2014, 02:09 PM
I'm coming in late to this discussion, but I don't think that's the case. I remember a lot of point-guard (see: point-forward) duties from Kobe in that first slate, especially later in games in the latter years of the 3 peat.

I could be wrong, but I definitely remember quite a bit of Kobe ball handling/playmaking duties. He was the pendulum of that O when it wasn't in the paint.

He did handle the ball a lot, but so did Pippen and LeBron.

Kobe always played with another "1" on the floor. He never played in an obvious 1 role.

Like when you watch the Thunder play Westbrook is usually the 1 on the floor. He rarely shares the floor with another 1. Reggie Jackson is usually on the bench when he's in or moves to the 2 with Westbrook. Same with Fisher.

I used position estimates as well from basketball reference. Data is not available during Kobe's first 2 rings, but for the rest of them they are.

ManRam
03-08-2014, 03:40 PM
That's a joke. Name the last player similar to Westbrook that won a title.

Name the last team that won a ring with a "true PG" that was no worse than the team's 3rd option.

Hint: you'll have to go back a VERY long time.

Jamiecballer
03-08-2014, 03:55 PM
An aggressive combo guard? How about Kobe 5x, Wade 3x, etc.no, an exceptionally high usage PG. The answer is none.

Jamiecballer
03-08-2014, 03:56 PM
Name the last team that won a ring with a "true PG" that was no worse than the team's 3rd option.

Hint: you'll have to go back a VERY long time.

Exactly. What is your point.

TylerSL
04-09-2014, 01:15 PM
I broke the tie in this poll?? Before I voted it was 22-22 Y/N. How the hell can 22 people on here really think Durant is better off without Westbrook???!??

If Westbrook was not on OKC they would lose in round 2 every year. Durant would score 40-45 and his team would have 90-95 by the end of the game. San Antonio, and LAC would have their way with OKC minus Westbrook. Teams like Houston, Golden State, Portland, and Memphis could also give them trouble. Do you guys really think Durant can win without Westbrook? I thought last years 2nd round proved otherwise.

beyourself
04-09-2014, 02:09 PM
I broke the tie in this poll?? Before I voted it was 22-22 Y/N. How the hell can 22 people on here really think Durant is better off without Westbrook???!??

If Westbrook was not on OKC they would lose in round 2 every year. Durant would score 40-45 and his team would have 90-95 by the end of the game. San Antonio, and LAC would have their way with OKC minus Westbrook. Teams like Houston, Golden State, Portland, and Memphis could also give them trouble. Do you guys really think Durant can win without Westbrook? I thought last years 2nd round proved otherwise.

It was a 7 game sample size. That's not going to tell you much about the capabilities of a team without 1 of it's players.

To say that Durant "needs" Westbrook to win a title is kind of misleading. The ingredient he "needs" is not Westbrook.

What Durant needs just like almost every other superstar is a sidekick. Ibaka will not cut it. MJ had Pippen, Bird had McHale, Shaq had Kobe. The list goes on.

RiLoc
04-09-2014, 02:35 PM
Westbrook has pros and cons... I think this video sums up his effect on OKC pretty well:
BBALLBREAKDOWN: Does Russell Westbrook Help OKCs Title Chances? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A15e4ihwslw)

KnicksorBust
04-09-2014, 02:41 PM
I broke the tie in this poll?? Before I voted it was 22-22 Y/N. How the hell can 22 people on here really think Durant is better off without Westbrook???!??

If Westbrook was not on OKC they would lose in round 2 every year. Durant would score 40-45 and his team would have 90-95 by the end of the game. San Antonio, and LAC would have their way with OKC minus Westbrook. Teams like Houston, Golden State, Portland, and Memphis could also give them trouble. Do you guys really think Durant can win without Westbrook? I thought last years 2nd round proved otherwise.

Westbrook is not the ideal PG for Kevin Durant. If they can trade Westbrook and get $0.80 on the dollar but with players that fit the team better, that would produce an overall better product. If you play with the best scorer in the world and you decide to take more shots than him, you are a problem.

Hawkeye15
04-09-2014, 03:10 PM
Westbrook is not the ideal PG for Kevin Durant. If they can trade Westbrook and get $0.80 on the dollar but with players that fit the team better, that would produce an overall better product. If you play with the best scorer in the world and you decide to take more shots than him, you are a problem.

still lobbying MBT's trade

Pekovic/Rubio/Shved/2nd rounder

for

Westbrook/Perkins

KnicksorBust
04-09-2014, 03:37 PM
still lobbying MBT's trade

Pekovic/Rubio/Shved/2nd rounder

for

Westbrook/Perkins

:laugh: I had forgotten the exact trade but yes I would love to see Rubio with Durant and Pek should be enough juice to get it done with the injuries of Westbrook this season.

EL_MACHETE
04-09-2014, 03:37 PM
Haters will always Hate. Get off Okc's Dick! Their fine just the way they are

KnicksorBust
04-09-2014, 03:41 PM
Haters will always Hate. Get off Okc's Dick! Their fine just the way they are

They are too talented to not win a championship. The longer Durant goes without one, the worse it will get.

Hawkeye15
04-09-2014, 03:44 PM
:laugh: I had forgotten the exact trade but yes I would love to see Rubio with Durant and Pek should be enough juice to get it done with the injuries of Westbrook this season.

it honestly helps both teams imo. Love is staying if another star and his best friend come over, and the Thunder now have a pass first, pesky defending PG, and a bruising paint scorer next to the defensive Ibaka. With Dieng emerging in Minnesota, Pekovic is expendable, considering Dieng's style of play is a better compliment to Love.

TylerSL
04-15-2014, 06:47 PM
Westbrook is not the ideal PG for Kevin Durant. If they can trade Westbrook and get $0.80 on the dollar but with players that fit the team better, that would produce an overall better product. If you play with the best scorer in the world and you decide to take more shots than him, you are a problem.

The question the thread raises is not "if OKC trades Westbrook and gets a haul, could they still win a championship?", it is "is Durant better off without Westbrook?". Clearly he is not.

TylerSL
04-15-2014, 06:58 PM
It was a 7 game sample size. That's not going to tell you much about the capabilities of a team without 1 of it's players.

To say that Durant "needs" Westbrook to win a title is kind of misleading. The ingredient he "needs" is not Westbrook.

What Durant needs just like almost every other superstar is a sidekick. Ibaka will not cut it. MJ had Pippen, Bird had McHale, Shaq had Kobe. The list goes on.

It was a playoff basketball series and OKC got bullied and beaten by Memphis because they didnt have any other go to scorer other than Durant. Russell Westbrook puts OKC on a different level. Sure Durant may honestly score 38-45 points a night without Westbrook, but basketball is not just scoring. If Lebron wanted to average 35 points a game he could, but his overall game would go down because he would take less efficient shots and the Heat would suffer as he would be shooting the ball when he could be getting guys open to help the team win.

Westbrook to Durant, is what Wade is to Lebron. Having them both on the court spreads the floor and makes basketball look easy. Without Westbrook, OKC offense is literally the Pacers with Durant (i.e. no other reliable scorer.) With Westbrook on the team the Thunder have a legit shot at a title, without him they do not, simple as that.

beyourself
04-15-2014, 07:21 PM
It was a playoff basketball series and OKC got bullied and beaten by Memphis because they didnt have any other go to scorer other than Durant. Russell Westbrook puts OKC on a different level. Sure Durant may honestly score 38-45 points a night without Westbrook, but basketball is not just scoring. If Lebron wanted to average 35 points a game he could, but his overall game would go down because he would take less efficient shots and the Heat would suffer as he would be shooting the ball when he could be getting guys open to help the team win.

Westbrook to Durant, is what Wade is to Lebron. Having them both on the court spreads the floor and makes basketball look easy. Without Westbrook, OKC offense is literally the Pacers with Durant (i.e. no other reliable scorer.) With Westbrook on the team the Thunder have a legit shot at a title, without him they do not, simple as that.

I think the jury is still out on whether or not the Thunder are a better team without Westbrook on it. That playoff series was ugly and they lost without him, but they could have lost with him as well. And the sample size is too small to draw conclusions. Westbrook doesn't guarantee a victory in that playoff series.

The Thunder looked pretty damn good with and without Westbrook this season. Wade is not comparable to Westbrook. Just because they are both the 2nd best players on their team doesn't make them comparable at all.

Basketball is a team game and the sums of it's parts do not equal the whole.

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 08:18 PM
The question the thread raises is not "if OKC trades Westbrook and gets a haul, could they still win a championship?", it is "is Durant better off without Westbrook?". Clearly he is not.

Such a cop-out response. There are basically no players in NBA of Westbrook's talent that have a negative impact on their teams. If we narrow the debate to that level then this thread should be 48-0 "no." As OP clarifies, it's more about whether or not they should be looking to trade him. The answer to that question is yes. The only problem to me is that they've wasted how many years still trying to figure that out? Durant could already have a title by now.