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View Full Version : Danny Granger traded to Philly for Evan Turner and Lavoy Allen



B'sCeltsPatsSox
02-20-2014, 04:34 PM
436599244926234624

bholly
02-20-2014, 04:35 PM
Gotta be ET or Thad. Maybe in a three way? God, this is so far out of the blue.

bholly
02-20-2014, 04:36 PM
Love the possibility of repercussions at both ends of the East standings.

black1605
02-20-2014, 04:36 PM
If they did the deal for ET, Indy is crazy loaded.

blahblahyoutoo
02-20-2014, 04:37 PM
really sucks for granger. i like the guy and now he went from first to last place in a matter of hours.

MiamiBoy77
02-20-2014, 04:37 PM
maybe 17 second round picks for Granger lol

Gibby23
02-20-2014, 04:37 PM
PHI had to do it to add salary to reach the floor. They were like 11.7 million under.

RipCity32
02-20-2014, 04:38 PM
That came out of left field

leprechaun5
02-20-2014, 04:38 PM
evan turner going to indiana

abe_froman
02-20-2014, 04:39 PM
for what?

black1605
02-20-2014, 04:40 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA 12s
Indiana has traded Danny Granger to the 76ers for Evan Turner and Lavoy Allen, league sources tell Yahoo.

MiamiBoy77
02-20-2014, 04:40 PM
philadelphia is sending Evan Turner as part of a package to the Pacers for Danny Granger, league source tells Yahoo Sports. - woj

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 04:40 PM
PHI had to do it to add salary to reach the floor. They were like 11.7 million under.

exactly right

bholly
02-20-2014, 04:40 PM
PHI had to do it to add salary to reach the floor. They were like 11.7 million under.

We were about $5m under for most of the season so far, and this still won't get us over the floor overall unless there's much more to it (I'm not even sure it's possible). Plus, you don't even have to get over. I don't think the cap floor had anything to do with this move.

SteBO
02-20-2014, 04:40 PM
I heard Lavoy Allen is also part of it.....pretty good trade for Indiana if true.

Crackadalic
02-20-2014, 04:40 PM
If it's for Thad and turner then the pacers are better then Miami no doubt. Lots of depth off the bench

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 04:40 PM
well, Evan was *****ing earlier this year about not being onboard with a tanking team. You get 28 games plus a deep playoff run now Evan.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 04:41 PM
We were about $5m under for most of the season so far, and this still won't get us over the floor overall unless there's much more to it (I'm not even sure it's possible). Plus, you don't even have to get over. I don't think the cap floor had anything to do with this move.

sure it does. Granger is just a much bigger expiring.

kobe4thewinbang
02-20-2014, 04:41 PM
well, Evan was *****ing earlier this year about not being onboard with a tanking team. You get 28 games plus a deep playoff run now Evan.Hopefully he can help the Pacers.

Jroz
02-20-2014, 04:41 PM
good move for the Pacers, career year 17.5 and 6 boards 25yrs old..for a busted old injured Granger..rich get richer

greg_ory_2005
02-20-2014, 04:42 PM
Wow nice deal for the Pacers

MiamiBoy77
02-20-2014, 04:42 PM
pacers have won the deadline.. so deep now

Corey
02-20-2014, 04:42 PM
I think this is such a killer trade for Indy. Wow.

bholly
02-20-2014, 04:42 PM
sure it does. Granger is just a much bigger expiring.

Sure it does what? Get us over the floor? I don't think so, but I haven't done the math.

And why would they pay extra money just to get over the floor? There's no penalty or anything for being below it. They'd just be paying extra money for the sake of paying extra money, makes no sense.

TheNumber37
02-20-2014, 04:43 PM
Pacers are not playing around.

Max.This
02-20-2014, 04:43 PM
say goodbye to lance stephenson... they cant resign him next year

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 04:43 PM
Hopefully he can help the Pacers.

he will be a decent bench piece for the playoffs, though he will need to stop over dribbling and trying to do too much. I assume Vogel will get through to him.

GiantsSwaGG
02-20-2014, 04:44 PM
Indy winning it all this year

Sactown
02-20-2014, 04:44 PM
Sure it does what? Get us over the floor? I don't think so, but I haven't done the math.

And why would they pay extra money just to get over the floor? There's no penalty or anything for being below it. They'd just be paying extra money for the sake of paying extra money, makes no sense.
This I don't understand this deal if you're under the floor you have to split the difference and give it to the players, makes no sense to do this deal unless a first rounder is involved and hasn't been reported

JLynn943
02-20-2014, 04:44 PM
Great trade for Indy. Don't understand how Philly didn't get more from someone with that package.

bholly
02-20-2014, 04:45 PM
say goodbye to lance stephenson... they cant resign him next year

Doesn't add anything to their next year salary. Lavoy and ET will both just expire and leave if Indy want them to.

Knick_Fever
02-20-2014, 04:45 PM
Wow, biggest trade of the day happens at the last minute. Pacers are deeeeheeep!

Teeboy1487
02-20-2014, 04:45 PM
What a trade for Indy. That are going to be a nightmare for teams in the playoffs.

Sactown
02-20-2014, 04:45 PM
he will be a decent bench piece for the playoffs, though he will need to stop over dribbling and trying to do too much. I assume Vogel will get through to him.
I see him becoming a bigger play maker dude has good vision I see his FG % raising as well without the pressure to be the man

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 04:45 PM
Sure it does what? Get us over the floor? I don't think so, but I haven't done the math.

And why would they pay extra money just to get over the floor? There's no penalty or anything for being below it. They'd just be paying extra money for the sake of paying extra money, makes no sense.

true. I think all they do is charge you the floor minimum anyways, that is the penalty. The punishment is literally that you are forced to pay that amount, so why not have actual players that total that amount?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
02-20-2014, 04:45 PM
Sure it does what? Get us over the floor? I don't think so, but I haven't done the math.

And why would they pay extra money just to get over the floor? There's no penalty or anything for being below it. They'd just be paying extra money for the sake of paying extra money, makes no sense.

Granger's a bit over 14 million and ET and Allen are around 9 million. I think they just reach the floor.


Like this for Indy though.

bholly
02-20-2014, 04:46 PM
This I don't understand this deal if you're under the floor you have to split the difference and give it to the players, makes no sense to do this deal unless a first rounder is involved and hasn't been reported

Not even a first rounder. The Sixers would've taken second rounders or minor assets for ET+Lavoy. Assuming that's what's happening, just have to wait until the details come out.

NYMetros
02-20-2014, 04:47 PM
Nice Pacers!

SeoulBeatz
02-20-2014, 04:47 PM
I really hope we got a 2nd rounder or two thrown into this deal. I want all the picks.

Walt
02-20-2014, 04:47 PM
Making room for Lance in the offseason, ET really gives them a big chance at a title this season.

Wow, and LaVoy Allen is solid big man depth too.

Hill - Watson
Stephenson - Turner
George - Copeland
West - Scola
Hibbert - Mahinmi - Allen


Damn.

bholly
02-20-2014, 04:48 PM
Granger's a bit over 14 million and ET and Allen are around 9 million. I think they just reach the floor.


Like this for Indy though.

The floor isn't based on your total salary at a particular point in time, it's based on total salary paid over the season - eg the money we've already paid Turner still counts towards it, and the money we pay Granger the rest of the season will count towards it, but his full $14m won't.
$5m under for 2/3rds of the season means we'd need to go about $10m over for the rest of the season to make up for it. Again, I haven't run the math (and it's hard because we don't know the players' payment schedules), but I think we'd have to trade ourselves above the cap to reach the floor for the season.

NYKnickFanatic
02-20-2014, 04:48 PM
And the rich get richer. Great trade for Indy.

bholly
02-20-2014, 04:49 PM
@JakePavorsky: Philadelphia will be getting a pick back in return, I'm told. Not sure what.

This guy (despite being in High School - seriously) is super solid on the Sixers.

still1ballin
02-20-2014, 04:49 PM
Solid trade for Indy! They are so deep

Baller1
02-20-2014, 04:49 PM
Indy is ****ing STACKED.

Walt
02-20-2014, 04:50 PM
Forgot about Andrew Bynum...... Their bench has Evan Turner and Andrew Bynum...

redsoxknicks
02-20-2014, 04:55 PM
I am happy for the Pacers. I like smaller markets, and love anyone who will knock off Miami.

Walt
02-20-2014, 04:55 PM
Rumors are if they buyout Granger, he could go to Miami or Houston.

bholly
02-20-2014, 04:58 PM
^I saw LAC. I think the moral is that we aren't close to meaningful rumours on that yet, just pure speculation. Nowhere would really be a surprise, though.

TorontoHuskies
02-20-2014, 04:59 PM
I guess Philly wants Embiid instead of Wiggins/Jabari...unless they buy him out but that would be dumb since he can play still.

abe_froman
02-20-2014, 04:59 PM
I guess Philly wants Embiid instead of Wiggins/Jabari
how so? danny is an expiring,not really part of long term plans

Chi StateOfMind
02-20-2014, 05:02 PM
Indy is beyond stacked. If they lose to miami with this team then i dont know who will stop Miami.

TorontoHuskies
02-20-2014, 05:02 PM
how so? danny is an expiring,not really part of long term plans

NM then I thought he had a year left

DallasTrilla23
02-20-2014, 05:02 PM
CJ Watson, Turner, Copeland, Scola and Bynum. Deep *** bench

shep33
02-20-2014, 05:02 PM
Philly's GM is pretty awesome

leprechaun5
02-20-2014, 05:02 PM
philly now has the worst roster in history of the game .

Tony_Starks
02-20-2014, 05:03 PM
Indys not fooling around. Imagine a lineup of Lance, George, Turner, West, and Hibbert? Plus you still have Scola, Bynum, and Lavoy as bigs?

They're going to pound the hell out of Miami.....no homo.

Knowledge
02-20-2014, 05:07 PM
Poor Indy. They have been tricked into thinking ET is a good player, I assume they were held at gunpoint and forced to take Lavoy.

shep33
02-20-2014, 05:07 PM
philly now has the worst roster in history of the game .

Haha without a doubt. If MCW isn't playing, I don't know how that squad is going to score 60 ppg

Walt
02-20-2014, 05:08 PM
Turner is in a PERFECT role now. He can be a 10-15 ppg guy most nights for them and perhaps he can learn some defense.

randyorton33
02-20-2014, 05:09 PM
Did the Pacers just win the East?

bholly
02-20-2014, 05:11 PM
Turner is in a PERFECT role now. He can be a 10-15 ppg guy most nights for them and perhaps he can learn some defense.

I doubt he scores that much behind the rest of their roster, but a situation where he's forced to accept a secondary role and might actually be motivated to go back to hustling and rebounding and focussing on D could be seriously great for him.

Iversonfan4life
02-20-2014, 05:11 PM
hey guys fyi. EVAN TURNER SUCKS!

eagles715
02-20-2014, 05:11 PM
maybe i'm the only one here who watches turner on a consistent basis, but Turner is average and his stats are a product of being on a terrible roster and dominating the ball. Sure he's an upgrade to Granger, but come on. He is one of the worst defenders I can remember and he has been getting worse and worse as the season goes on. Makes them better but doesn't put them over the top in my opinion.

bholly
02-20-2014, 05:11 PM
Did the Pacers just win the East?

Seriously overrating ET if you think this makes winning the East inevitable.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 05:12 PM
Turner getting a lot of love in here. While he might be better in a bench role, the dude was a pretty bad starting wing for the last 3 years. The Pacers bench is very good now (it already was), but in the playoffs, you only go 8 deep unless injuries or foul trouble occur, so not sure this is that big of a deal. Does it help? Yes. Does it make them favorites in the east? Only if Wade goes limping through another playoffs imo, which is highly possible.

D-Leethal
02-20-2014, 05:12 PM
Is Turner a FA? What does this mean for Lance Stephenson getting resigned?

JNA17
02-20-2014, 05:12 PM
Great trade for Pacers. They are even more of a lock to win the title. Heat ain't beating that team anymore and they barely won in 7 against them last season when the Pacers had no where near as much depth as they do now.

eagles715
02-20-2014, 05:13 PM
oh and lavoy allen is terrible.

abe_froman
02-20-2014, 05:14 PM
Is Turner a FA? What does this mean for Lance Stephenson getting resigned?

he's an r,it will have little impact regarding lance

bholly
02-20-2014, 05:15 PM
Turner getting a lot of love in here. While he might be better in a bench role, the dude was a pretty bad starting wing for the last 3 years. The Pacers bench is very good now (it already was), but in the playoffs, you only go 8 deep unless injuries or foul trouble occur, so not sure this is that big of a deal. Does it help? Yes. Does it make them favorites in the east? Only if Wade goes limping through another playoffs imo, which is highly possible.

Yup. Not sure whose minutes he's taking, but chances are he isn't making them much better, if at all.


Is Turner a FA? What does this mean for Lance Stephenson getting resigned?

He's restricted. If they don't want to re-sign him they'll have exactly as much cap room as they would've had before this trade.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 05:15 PM
looking at Turner/Allen's numbers, major overreaction in this thread. Those 2 aren't putting the Pacers over the top at all. Turner was a far below average starter, and Allen and his 46 TS% have been pretty awful. They were better off letting Granger get some of his game back imo.

kdspurman
02-20-2014, 05:16 PM
So Granger will be bought out?

Max.This
02-20-2014, 05:16 PM
sixers are gunning for milwaukee. Watch out!

Slug3
02-20-2014, 05:17 PM
Great trade for Pacers. They are even more of a lock to win the title. Heat ain't beating that team anymore and they barely won in 7 against them last season when the Pacers had no where near as much depth as they do now.

Turner is not better than Granger. Just younger.

TrueFan420
02-20-2014, 05:17 PM
Is Turner a FA? What does this mean for Lance Stephenson getting resigned?

They won't resign turner before they sign lance. Lance will be first on their to do list. Plus they can go over the cap to sign both.

Bring The Heat
02-20-2014, 05:17 PM
I love people's overreaction to a trade... Indy gets Evan Turner and they are automatically winning the east and the finals.. You'd expect that out of some person who isn't into basketball all that much...

Miami hasn't even played their best basketball this season. Wade has been in and out because they are trying to maintain him and we only have 1 more loss than the Pacers... That says a lot to how good we STILL are.

FYI Miami Heat are still the team to beat. Back to Back champions who are proven and still hungry we ain't going nowhere.

odiz
02-20-2014, 05:17 PM
Funny how everyone is crowning the Pacers champs. They acquired a 42% shooting wing player who plays below average defense and the craziest, laziest center to ever play the game. Last time i checked the Heat still have Lebron/Wade/Bosh and its not like they have no depth either. Heat are definitely still favorites to me.

Super.
02-20-2014, 05:18 PM
Poor Indy. They have been tricked into thinking ET is a good player, I assume they were held at gunpoint and forced to take Lavoy.

Evan Turner is actually a very good defender.

That's about it, but a good defender still

TrueFan420
02-20-2014, 05:19 PM
Turner is not better than Granger. Just younger.

Maybe if granger were the granger before the injuries but he hasn't shown anything that makes me believe he is or will be that old player. It's a smart mover for Indy for this year. If granger regains form maybe not but that's gonna play out past this year and their in win now mode.

Chronz
02-20-2014, 05:20 PM
Dont get this trade if its just for a 2nd round pick

bholly
02-20-2014, 05:20 PM
So Granger will be bought out?

No real word on that yet - Sixers likely have to buy out someone, and Granger probably wants a buy out, so it seems like a decent guess.

JNA17
02-20-2014, 05:21 PM
Funny how everyone is crowning the Pacers champs. They acquired a 42% shooting wing player who plays below average defense and the craziest, laziest center to ever play the game. Last time i checked the Heat still have Lebron/Wade/Bosh and its not like they have no depth either. Heat are definitely still favorites to me.

Wade is not the same Wade anymore and Bosh is still soft as tissue. Their players are older and Pacers are much younger, have a lot of star power and have much more depth than last year. And that year the Heat barely got through the Pacers in 7 games.

Lebrun would have to play god like every game in that series in order to win.

Swashcuff
02-20-2014, 05:21 PM
I don't care about anything else. DANNY GRANGER is a 76er. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! Wish we could have gotten him when he peaked but say what still my favourite current player.

Pakman
02-20-2014, 05:22 PM
I love people's overreaction to a trade... Indy gets Evan Turner and they are automatically winning the east and the finals.. You'd expect that out of some person who isn't into basketball all that much...

Miami hasn't even played their best basketball this season. Wade has been in and out because they are trying to maintain him and we only have 1 more loss than the Pacers... That says a lot to how good we STILL are.

FYI Miami Heat are still the team to beat. Back to Back champions who are proven and still hungry we ain't going nowhere.hush.

kdspurman
02-20-2014, 05:22 PM
No real word on that yet - Sixers likely have to buy out someone, and Granger probably wants a buy out, so it seems like a decent guess.

Yea that's what the chatter on Twitter seems to be, that he'll be getting bought out. I guess we'll see what happens

Swashcuff
02-20-2014, 05:23 PM
Evan Turner is actually a very good defender.

That's about it, but a good defender still

You must have Evan mixed up with someone else if you think he's a very good defender. I expect him to be better next to PG/Lance as he was when he was next to Iggy but he's nothing but sub par on that end of the floor TBH.

Slug3
02-20-2014, 05:23 PM
I don't care about anything else. DANNY GRANGER is a 76er. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! Wish we could have gotten him when he peaked but say what still my favourite current player.

I feel sorry for you of they really do buy him out. Lol

bholly
02-20-2014, 05:23 PM
Dont get this trade if its just for a 2nd round pick

Yeah. I think we Sixer fans are happy just to be moving on from ET, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was more to it than a (bad) future 2nd.

Some combination of
1) There's more to it;
2) Hinkie just really really values 2nd rounders;
3) Hinkie thinks it'll help us lose more games and really values that;
4) Hinkie knows he wasn't going to re-sign ET, and thinks Granger has better S+T value this summer;
5) Hinkie just really hates ET and wanted him out.

Reports were that they were working on something with the Lakers right up until the deadline, and this was the backup plan, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was just a small return. We'd come to expect about a second rounder for ET, but probably something better than the ones Indy could be giving us.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
02-20-2014, 05:26 PM
If Granger gets bought out, who do you think signs him?

Heat? Spurs? Clippers?

sunsfan88
02-20-2014, 05:27 PM
Damn Philly was only able to get 2nd rd picks for Hawes and Turner?

Suns are lucky we got a 1st for Gortat and a 1st and Plumlee & Green for Scola.

koreancabbage
02-20-2014, 05:29 PM
If indy doesn't get to the final and/or best the heat, it would be considered a choke job of epic proportions.

MiamiBoy77
02-20-2014, 05:29 PM
I don't care about anything else. DANNY GRANGER is a 76er. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! Wish we could have gotten him when he peaked but say what still my favourite current player.

He may get bought out

Chronz
02-20-2014, 05:30 PM
Oh PLZ buy out Granger and bring him to LA

kdspurman
02-20-2014, 05:31 PM
If Granger gets bought out, who do you think signs him?

Heat? Spurs? Clippers?

I'd imagine all of the above would have interest

RateSports
02-20-2014, 05:33 PM
I'd imagine all of the above would have interest

Definitely will.

I think Jamison is the one who the Heat grab. I think Granger goes to Clips.

kdspurman
02-20-2014, 05:35 PM
Definitely will.

I think Jamison is the one who the Heat grab. I think Granger goes to Clips.

I hear they might have interest if Caron Butler is brought out as well.

moshy2
02-20-2014, 05:36 PM
Like I said in the other thread, don't know that I like this trade for Indy. I feel like Turner wouldn't really show up in a series vs the Heat. If healthy (key words) I'd prefer to have Granger on the bench. I wouldn't mind eating my words though

JNA17
02-20-2014, 05:36 PM
Suns should sign Danny Granger. They work miracles and could make Granger into a relevant player again.

kdspurman
02-20-2014, 05:39 PM
Suns should sign Danny Granger. They work miracles and could make Granger into a relevant player again.

That would make a lot of sense for him.

bholly
02-20-2014, 05:42 PM
Damn Philly was only able to get 2nd rd picks for Hawes and Turner?

Suns are lucky we got a 1st for Gortat and a 1st and Plumlee & Green for Scola.

That's probably a fair point. Gortat and Scola prob have more value than our guys, though - and certainly had more value at the beginning of the season when 1st rounders weren't considered quite as valuable.

sunsfan88
02-20-2014, 05:43 PM
Granger would want to go to a contender or a team better than the Suns.

sunsfan88
02-20-2014, 05:45 PM
That's probably a fair point. Gortat and Scola prob have more value than our guys, though - and certainly had more value at the beginning of the season when 1st rounders weren't considered quite as valuable.
Yea it's just crazy how highly teams are valuing 1st round picks now.

All the rookies next season will have high expectations and a lot of pressure.

Slug3
02-20-2014, 05:48 PM
Definitely will.

I think Jamison is the one who the Heat grab. I think Granger goes to Clips.

Miami will not sign Jamison. We have Lewis who is literally the same type of player.

PurpleJesus
02-20-2014, 05:50 PM
PHILADELPHIA -- In a classy move, the 76ers signed Bensalem High School senior Kevin Grow, who has Down syndrome and served as his high school team's manager for four seasons, to a ceremonial two-day contract Monday and allowed him to participate in pre-game activities as the Sixers prepared to face the Cleveland Cavaliers on Tuesday at the Wells Fargo Center.

Grow also had a personalized No. 33 Sixers jersey hanging in the Philadelphia locker room before the game.

Casual observers may remember that number formerly belonged to Andrew Bynum.

"We had a guy last year who had number 33," Sixers swingman Evan Turner said to Grow. "He never wore it. It's yours."

Well, things might be awkward for the two new teammates.

Cal827
02-20-2014, 05:51 PM
looking at Turner/Allen's numbers, major overreaction in this thread. Those 2 aren't putting the Pacers over the top at all. Turner was a far below average starter, and Allen and his 46 TS% have been pretty awful. They were better off letting Granger get some of his game back imo.

To be fair, that's on a 76ers team where he was pretty much became the #1 guy by default. So teams would focus in on him when they were playing (as well as Thaddeus). As a sixth man, I really thing Turner can thrive at eather of the swing positions.

Hill-Watson
Stephenson-Turner
George-Turner-Copeland
West-Scola-Allen
Hibbert-Mahinmi-Bynum


So their 2nd unit would pretty much be Watson, Turner, Copeland, Scola/Allen, and Mahinmi/Bynum. The 2nd Unit could cause some serious problems against other teams second units, especially against some teams where they could meet come playoff time (Mainly Miami, but also Brooklyn, Toronto, Chicago...)

I think it's going to take a San Antonio type of team to take them down, but we will definitely see. I guess that's the value of expiring contracts.... cannot wait to see what Toronto gets back for Fields next year lol

Gotta feel bad for Thaddeus though. He's like the only one left lol

PurpleJesus
02-20-2014, 05:56 PM
looking at Turner/Allen's numbers, major overreaction in this thread. Those 2 aren't putting the Pacers over the top at all. Turner was a far below average starter, and Allen and his 46 TS% have been pretty awful. They were better off letting Granger get some of his game back imo.

of course its not putting them over the top...they are already there.

MTar786
02-20-2014, 06:03 PM
i don't know if this is because people just look up turners stats and just assume oh the dude scores 17 a game. now the pacers are the champs.. or if they really believe what they're saying while really knowing much about the guy? this is not even remotely impressive to me and I'm actually rooting for indianna. this makes barely any difference to me. i think the pacers could have actually done better. turner is not good. but whatever.. hopefully pacers still beat heat

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 06:07 PM
To be fair, that's on a 76ers team where he was pretty much became the #1 guy by default. So teams would focus in on him when they were playing (as well as Thaddeus). As a sixth man, I really thing Turner can thrive at eather of the swing positions.

Hill-Watson
Stephenson-Turner
George-Turner-Copeland
West-Scola-Allen
Hibbert-Mahinmi-Bynum


So their 2nd unit would pretty much be Watson, Turner, Copeland, Scola/Allen, and Mahinmi/Bynum. The 2nd Unit could cause some serious problems against other teams second units, especially against some teams where they could meet come playoff time (Mainly Miami, but also Brooklyn, Toronto, Chicago...)

I think it's going to take a San Antonio type of team to take them down, but we will definitely see. I guess that's the value of expiring contracts.... cannot wait to see what Toronto gets back for Fields next year lol

Gotta feel bad for Thaddeus though. He's like the only one left lol

I simply don't see Turner or Allen making much of an impact. They simply aren't good players. Perhaps the locker room/coaching change will get them to play harder, but people are acting like this team is now the best in the east and it isn't even close. Last time I checked, Miami still has LeBron, and with the amount of rest they are giving Wade, he hopefully will be better in the playoffs this year. Miami was on serious coasting mode the first half of the season. Teams like Indiana and OKC, the ones trying to prove to themselves they are contenders, have been out for blood since game 1.

You also forget, in the playoffs, no team is leaving every starter on the bench at any given time. Depth becomes less of an asset.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 06:08 PM
of course its not putting them over the top...they are already there.

how so?

PurpleJesus
02-20-2014, 06:09 PM
how so?

top 4 contender.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 06:10 PM
top 4 contender.

I meant over the top of Miami, sorry if my words were not right

abe_froman
02-20-2014, 06:10 PM
i don't know if this is because people just look up turners stats and just assume oh the dude scores 17 a game. now the pacers are the champs.. or if they really believe what they're saying while really knowing much about the guy? this is not even remotely impressive to me and I'm actually rooting for indianna. this makes barely any difference to me. i think the pacers could have actually done better. turner is not good. but whatever.. hopefully pacers still beat heat
this

look its one thing if you think indy was already the bullies on the block...but the reaction after this trade is hilarious,i havent seen evan turner get this much hype since his ohio state days.turner doesnt put indy over the top anymore than they already were

i get it was a very minor deadline and all ,but guys stop acting like they just traded for kd or something

Asik's better
02-20-2014, 06:14 PM
I think it does improve Indiana slightly. It does provide the pacers a their first scorer off the bench. And if the 76ers do buy out granger, I would like the rockets go after him.

bholly
02-20-2014, 06:24 PM
PHILADELPHIA -- In a classy move, the 76ers signed Bensalem High School senior Kevin Grow, who has Down syndrome and served as his high school team's manager for four seasons, to a ceremonial two-day contract Monday and allowed him to participate in pre-game activities as the Sixers prepared to face the Cleveland Cavaliers on Tuesday at the Wells Fargo Center.

Grow also had a personalized No. 33 Sixers jersey hanging in the Philadelphia locker room before the game.

Casual observers may remember that number formerly belonged to Andrew Bynum.

"We had a guy last year who had number 33," Sixers swingman Evan Turner said to Grow. "He never wore it. It's yours."

Well, things might be awkward for the two new teammates.

Haha, I'm glad someone posted it, I was thinking about that exact quote.

Cal827
02-20-2014, 06:26 PM
I simply don't see Turner or Allen making much of an impact. They simply aren't good players. Perhaps the locker room/coaching change will get them to play harder, but people are acting like this team is now the best in the east and it isn't even close. Last time I checked, Miami still has LeBron, and with the amount of rest they are giving Wade, he hopefully will be better in the playoffs this year. Miami was on serious coasting mode the first half of the season. Teams like Indiana and OKC, the ones trying to prove to themselves they are contenders, have been out for blood since game 1.

You also forget, in the playoffs, no team is leaving every starter on the bench at any given time. Depth becomes less of an asset.

That is true that depth can become less of an asset in the playoffs, but you could do a lot worse with Turner as a 6th man over what they previously had at the 2 and 3 positions. If they end up playing Miami, it is quite possible that Wade (assuming he's healthy) and Lebron could get Stephenson and George into foul trouble. Being able to put Turner in, rather than Granger (who is still kinda rusty), is a plus. Granger getting back to regular Granger, is a huge question mark.

I'm also for some reason really iffy on Wade this year. Hopefully he's back to normal by then. I want to see an epic ECF lol

PurpleJesus
02-20-2014, 06:30 PM
so, how ridiculously young and talented will Philly's roster be next year? I know both Ennis and MCW play point, but think of this potential lineup...

Ennis
MCW
Jabari Parker
Thad Young
Nerlens Noel

PacersForLife
02-20-2014, 06:32 PM
Turner is not better than Granger. Just younger.

Granger hasn't been good at all this year.

I have a weird feeling he goes to the Clippers if he gets cut by Philly. Wouldn't be surprised if he went to San Antonio or Pheonix either. I don't know if I could see him going to Miami.

bholly
02-20-2014, 06:35 PM
so, how ridiculously young and talented will Philly's roster be next year? I know both Ennis and MCW play point, but think of this potential lineup...

Ennis
MCW
Jabari Parker
Thad Young
Nerlens Noel

That's the dream. Word in Sixers circles the last week or so has been that we'd probably keep Thad past the deadline for a draft-day trade (or near to it), so might be even different again.

odiz
02-20-2014, 06:42 PM
Wade is not the same Wade anymore and Bosh is still soft as tissue. Their players are older and Pacers are much younger, have a lot of star power and have much more depth than last year. And that year the Heat barely got through the Pacers in 7 games.

Lebrun would have to play god like every game in that series in order to win.

Do the people that say Wade isnt Wade anymore watch him play? He obviously has injury problems. But when hes playing he still might be the best 2 guard out there. Nearly 19 points a game on 54% shooting and hes playing injured sometimes, playing limited minutes sometimes. If hes healthy hes a better scorer than George.

Bosh has a .607 TS% while taking 14 shots a game, many of them jumpers. Hes still an elite, efficient scorer in the post, something Indiana doesnt have.

And Miami has plenty of depth, there one weakness would be at Center. Im assuming they are working there way up to having Oden playing 15 or so minutes a game in the playoffs. If he can give you 15 productive minutes along with 20 from Andersen well then that Center position isnt really a problem anymore.

And they also still have Lebron James, the best player in the world. On Indianas side Paul George has played like a star for 2 months out of his entire career. Over the last couple months hes shooting 40%. I dont know if hes really proven himself as a go to scorer and if hes not one then Indiana doesnt have one.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2014, 06:43 PM
That is true that depth can become less of an asset in the playoffs, but you could do a lot worse with Turner as a 6th man over what they previously had at the 2 and 3 positions. If they end up playing Miami, it is quite possible that Wade (assuming he's healthy) and Lebron could get Stephenson and George into foul trouble. Being able to put Turner in, rather than Granger (who is still kinda rusty), is a plus. Granger getting back to regular Granger, is a huge question mark.

I'm also for some reason really iffy on Wade this year. Hopefully he's back to normal by then. I want to see an epic ECF lol

because his 15 ppg on a PER of 18 last year while gimping through the playoffs worries us haha?

Chucky Woods
02-20-2014, 06:44 PM
Tanks Philly

Tony_Starks
02-20-2014, 06:49 PM
Indy took MIA 7 games last year with no home court, and no bench. This year they'll probably have home court, with Scola, ET, Bynum off the bench. Oh yeah plus that Paul George guy got better.

You do the math.....

dodie53
02-20-2014, 06:58 PM
heat still have lebron, hehe

More-Than-Most
02-20-2014, 07:08 PM
Love the logic in this thread lol... Pacers win East because of the beast that is turner. These same people were calling him a scrub for years now... Anyway Its a good deal for them and us. More losing please. Also I love all the pacers will win it all. Keep underestimating the King.

How does the paper champ pacers look last year or how about the paper champ spurs???? Or thunder? To be the best you need to beat the best and the king and heat are just that

kobe4thewinbang
02-20-2014, 07:25 PM
Love the logic in this thread lol... Pacers win East because of the beast that is turner. These same people were calling him a scrub for years now... Anyway Its a good deal for them and us. More losing please. Also I love all the pacers will win it all. Keep underestimating the King.

How does the paper champ pacers look last year or how about the paper champ spurs???? Or thunder? To be the best you need to beat the best and the king and heat are just thatIs English your first language? :D

Rndy
02-20-2014, 07:45 PM
Turner is pretty overrated but I had them beating Miami before now they actually have a guy who can score points as opposed to a guy who would likely not even play Miami should be worried.

Shammyguy3
02-20-2014, 07:58 PM
agree with Hawkeye - Indy got better, but not by a significant amount.

WES KOAST
02-20-2014, 07:59 PM
great trade for pacers. they get a young proven scorer. granger can now be the man again in philly

2-ONE-5
02-20-2014, 08:06 PM
Granger is not going to be the man here lol. MCW will remain the man and Granger likely wont play much

Jamiecballer
02-20-2014, 08:45 PM
looking at Turner/Allen's numbers, major overreaction in this thread. Those 2 aren't putting the Pacers over the top at all. Turner was a far below average starter, and Allen and his 46 TS% have been pretty awful. They were better off letting Granger get some of his game back imo.

no kidding. isn't turner's best attribute his ability to score, and he doesn't even do that very well.

2-ONE-5
02-20-2014, 09:12 PM
Turner is a pretty good rebounder maybe even really good actually and he can pass a bit. but he works best with the ball in his hand so off the bench he should be good if he embraces the role.

bholly
02-20-2014, 09:22 PM
Turner was a good/great rebounder - whether he goes back to that for Indy remains to be seen.

Jamiecballer
02-20-2014, 09:30 PM
fun fact: Turner's total offensive win shares for his career

-1.2

not so bold prediction - unless one of Indy's swingmen get's injured this trade will not make them better but worse. then again they gave up jack **** to get him so i guess they can't complain.

bringbackfredex
02-20-2014, 09:42 PM
Evan Turner might actually be worse than Granger, even Tim Legler said it today. Lmao at everyone in this thread and their ridiculous overreactions.

Oh and to anyone who was wondering, Lavoy Allen isn't very good and is kind of lucky to still even be in the NBA. Definitely didn't add anything there either.

Pacerlive
02-20-2014, 09:45 PM
fun fact: Turner's total offensive win shares for his career

-1.2

not so bold prediction - unless one of Indy's swingmen get's injured this trade will not make them better but worse. then again they gave up jack **** to get him so i guess they can't complain.

Huh?

Have you looked up Grangers this year vs Turners this year?

I get the whole Turner isn't the greatest post but Granger this year hasn't really been that awsome either and by most measurables he has been worse.

This trade was a win win IMO.

bringbackfredex
02-20-2014, 09:46 PM
fun fact: Turner's total offensive win shares for his career

-1.2

not so bold prediction - unless one of Indy's swingmen get's injured this trade will not make them better but worse. then again they gave up jack **** to get him so i guess they can't complain.

Not a bold prediction at all, I was reading an insider article where they gave the Pacers a C- and the Sixers a B in that trade. ET is horribly inconsistent and doesn't do much else except shoot (he doesn't even do that very well). Most of his numbers have been inflated by garbage time, the Pacers did get worse.

Jamiecballer
02-20-2014, 09:46 PM
Huh?

Have you looked up Grangers this year vs Turners this year?

I get the whole Turner isn't the greatest post but Granger this year hasn't really been that awsome either and by most measurables he has been worse.

This trade was a win win IMO.

they both suck this year. my point was only that if he's taking anybody else's minutes it won't make you better.

is granger totally done though? i haven't followed his health issues all that close.

bringbackfredex
02-20-2014, 09:48 PM
Huh?

Have you looked up Grangers this year vs Turners this year?

I get the whole Turner isn't the greatest post but Granger this year hasn't really been that awsome either and by most measurables he has been worse.

This trade was a win win IMO.

Granger has been used off the bench and is coming off of a severe injury, he doesn't have the minutes that Turner has. Turner hasn't played in a competitive game all year, someone on the team obviously has to average 18 a night....

PacersForLife
02-20-2014, 09:49 PM
Evan Turner might actually be worse than Granger, even Tim Legler said it today. Lmao at everyone in this thread and their ridiculous overreactions.

Oh and to anyone who was wondering, Lavoy Allen isn't very good and is kind of lucky to still even be in the NBA. Definitely didn't add anything there either.

Have you watched Granger play this year? I don't understand how anyone can say this was a bad trade for the Pacers.

bringbackfredex
02-20-2014, 09:52 PM
Have you watched Granger play this year? I don't understand how anyone can say this was a bad trade for the Pacers.

Again, Granger is coming off of a major injury and being used in a bench role so you can't really judge him as of now. The Sixers are most likely going to buy him out so I could care less, but wait until you see Turner. Soft and inconsistent, good luck.

PacersForLife
02-20-2014, 09:54 PM
Again, Granger is coming off of a major injury and being used in a bench role so you can't really judge him as of now. The Sixers are most likely going to buy him out so I could care less, but wait until you see Turner. Soft and inconsistent, good luck.

I'm not saying Turner is going to do anything outstanding. All he needs to do to fit in is handle the ball decently as well as be a decent scorer. Granger has basically become a spot-up shooter and he's not even really good at that.

Jamiecballer
02-20-2014, 10:01 PM
I'm not saying Turner is going to do anything outstanding. All he needs to do to fit in is handle the ball decently as well as be a decent scorer. Granger has basically become a spot-up shooter and he's not even really good at that.

prepare to be disappointed then. i was hoping you guys might have a role for him that he could fulfill. on a team as good as yours he should be nailed to the bench unless someone gets hurt.

PacersForLife
02-20-2014, 10:05 PM
prepare to be disappointed then. i was hoping you guys might have a role for him that he could fulfill. on a team as good as yours he should be nailed to the bench unless someone gets hurt.
I sure hope we didn't just trade for him to sit on the bench lol. I know he was on a bad team and all that, but he has averaged around 17 ppg right? I'm not expecting anything close to that with this team. Maybe 11-12 ppg at the most. I think he'll fit in nicely, but who knows, we'll just have to wait and see I guess.

Edit: The second unit also seemed to lack ball movement at times and I would assume Turner could help somewhat in that regard as well.

Alayla
02-20-2014, 10:07 PM
Made no sense for eather team Turner isnt that good and The 76ers seemed to have done this trade for the sake of making a move

Jamiecballer
02-20-2014, 10:16 PM
I sure hope we didn't just trade for him to sit on the bench lol. I know he was on a bad team and all that, but he has averaged around 17 ppg right? I'm not expecting anything close to that with this team. Maybe 11-12 ppg at the most. I think he'll fit in nicely, but who knows, we'll just have to wait and see I guess.

the Pacers are probably my second favorite team in the East. i'm hoping that he plays sparingly. but if Evan Turner is scoring 12 points a game for you guys it's unlikely that you guys are better.

Turner has a couple decent attributes, definitely can rebound the ball, but scoring is definitely not something he's good at.

i know a lot of people are turned off by the "efficiency" movement. but in order to demonstrate how deceiving his PPG are let me just say this:

do you know how many shots it takes Evan Turner to get 1000 points? the answer is an astonishing 1031. you will probably not be surprised to know that's the worst efficiency of any guard in basketball, or very close to it.

Pacerlive
02-20-2014, 10:19 PM
they both suck this year. my point was only that if he's taking anybody else's minutes it won't make you better.

is granger totally done though? i haven't followed his health issues all that close.
I will explain the possible rotation and why it matters.

Granger was the first to sub in for the wings and he normally sub'd in for Lance after Lance played 6 minutes into the first quarter. Lance would then sub back in for PG so he could run the second unit with CJ Watson, Scola, Ian and Granger.

Now the issue is that Granger shots aren't falling and he is turn over prone. His defense was his saving grace this year and was probably the only reason why Butler and Copeland didn't get his minutes becuase by all accounts he hurt the offense more than he helped. I also think Granger was forced feed minutes just to increase his trade value which I guess worked even though his stats probably hindered a better trade.

So what the Pacers lacked was a capable scorer off the bench to fill in Lance's shoes who is basically the only guy who runs a fast break well on the Pacers. Turner can be that guy now once Lance subs out.

The only area where the Pacers got hurt on was Grangers defense which was normally better on bigger sf or smallish pf's. Basically guys who couldn't take him off the dribble too easily.

The lack of ball handling with the starting unit minus Lance is an issue IMO and thats an area where Turner can be valueable on a pnr with David West. His shooting is an issue but less than Granger this year and with really a he can provide play making off the wing once Lance subs out.

IF the they keep the rotation the same this is Turners value over Granger.

Tony_Starks
02-20-2014, 10:34 PM
It's amazing how many people don't get the simple concept of new team, new role, different expectations.

Simply put Granger was giving them little to nothing, anything ET gives them off the bench is a bonus.

PacersForLife
02-20-2014, 10:37 PM
It's amazing how many people don't get the simple concept of new team, new role, different expectations.

Simply put Granger was giving them little to nothing, anything ET gives them off the bench is a bonus.

Yup, pretty much.

P&GRealist
02-20-2014, 10:55 PM
Larry Bird's clutchness saved the 2014 NBA Trade Deadline.

P&GRealist
02-20-2014, 11:10 PM
Made no sense for eather team Turner isnt that good and The 76ers seemed to have done this trade for the sake of making a move
Uneducated and misinformed.

goingfor28
02-20-2014, 11:10 PM
Made no sense for eather team Turner isnt that good and The 76ers seemed to have done this trade for the sake of making a move

this deal makes total sense for the pacers. turner off the bench will be nice.

The Ooh Child
02-20-2014, 11:11 PM
The return for ET isn't blowing me away, but we've been unsuccessfully trying to trade him since the draft, so I'm not surprised. And I've always wanted to see ET find some success, so I hope he can carve out a role with the Pacers and go on a good run for the rest of the season. I'll be pulling for the Pacers in the playoffs.

And I guess Lavoy can be the designated intentional fouler or something.

P&GRealist
02-20-2014, 11:18 PM
This was the perfect trade for the Pacers. Vogel better let Turner play with freedom and let him be who he is, a scorer!

ombada
02-20-2014, 11:21 PM
The return for ET isn't blowing me away, but we've been unsuccessfully trying to trade him since the draft, so I'm not surprised. And I've always wanted to see ET find some success, so I hope he can carve out a role with the Pacers and go on a good run for the rest of the season. I'll be pulling for the Pacers in the playoffs.

And I guess Lavoy can be the designated intentional fouler or something.

Allen will be a bench warmer or cut. If he stays on the team he would likely be 4th in center rotation behind Hibbert, Mahinmi and Bynum. No need for that many centers on the roster.

As far as Turner is concerned being on the 1 seed in the east should motivate him. We have a winning culture here right now and that helps. We also have solid team defense, these are both things Philly lacks. Could be a perfect fit.

goingfor28
02-20-2014, 11:26 PM
any chance granger is bought out?

Swashcuff
02-20-2014, 11:27 PM
fun fact: Turner's total offensive win shares for his career

-1.2

not so bold prediction - unless one of Indy's swingmen get's injured this trade will not make them better but worse. then again they gave up jack **** to get him so i guess they can't complain.

Another fun fact. Teammates, system and coaching have great impact on your advanced statistics. Just because Turner's number were so poor in one of the poorest offensive teams in the NBA over the last four years doesn't mean it would reflect such in every team he goes to.

PacersForLife
02-20-2014, 11:39 PM
any chance granger is bought out?

Sounds like it's possible.

FlashBolt
02-20-2014, 11:43 PM
It's amazing how many people don't get the simple concept of new team, new role, different expectations.

Simply put Granger was giving them little to nothing, anything ET gives them off the bench is a bonus.

So why can't you say that about ET? What if he doesn't enjoy that new role and puts up Granger-like numbers?

Jamiecballer
02-20-2014, 11:44 PM
It's amazing how many people don't get the simple concept of new team, new role, different expectations.

Simply put Granger was giving them little to nothing, anything ET gives them off the bench is a bonus.
how do you explain the fact that he's been the exact same player, with essentially the exact same (in)efficiency for all 4 of his seasons? how does that fit into your "new team, new role, different expectations" theory?

Jamiecballer
02-20-2014, 11:45 PM
This was the perfect trade for the Pacers. Vogel better let Turner play with freedom and let him be who he is, a scorer!

(chokes on chicken wing).... WHAT?

DR_1
02-20-2014, 11:50 PM
Pacers just won the East.

Tony_Starks
02-20-2014, 11:50 PM
how do you explain the fact that he's been the exact same player, with essentially the exact same (in)efficiency for all 4 of his seasons? how does that fit into your "new team, new role, different expectations" theory?

Do I really have to explain the difference between being one of the main guys on a garbage team and being a bench role player going against second stringers on a contender?

It's really not very complicated.

Jamiecballer
02-20-2014, 11:57 PM
Another fun fact. Teammates, system and coaching have great impact on your advanced statistics. Just because Turner's number were so poor in one of the poorest offensive teams in the NBA over the last four years doesn't mean it would reflect such in every team he goes to.

actually generally speaking that is known NOT to be the case at all. for the most part teammates have only a small impact on a players efficiency but let's pretend for a moment that what you were saying is true.

don't you think considering the fact that he's played with 40 some teammates in 4 years, yet his efficiency numbers have remained incredibly consistent (in a very bad way) during that time, that it reflects more on him than his teammates?

care to make a friendly little wager on what?

ombada
02-20-2014, 11:59 PM
fun fact: Turner's total offensive win shares for his career

-1.2

not so bold prediction - unless one of Indy's swingmen get's injured this trade will not make them better but worse. then again they gave up jack **** to get him so i guess they can't complain.

Another fun fact. Teammates, system and coaching have great impact on your advanced statistics. Just because Turner's number were so poor in one of the poorest offensive teams in the NBA over the last four years doesn't mean it would reflect such in every team he goes to.

Agreed 100%. The Pacers and Philly are on opposite sides of the NBA spectrum right now. I've read concerns about Turnovers offensive efficiency, his over dribbling and his sub par defense.

As a back up he will have less opportunities to shoot, but more opportunities to make an impact as a go to player on the second unit.

Team defense and defensive philosophy, especially under Nate McMillan, should impact Turners defensive play positively. If you don't play D on the Pacers, you don't play.

He shouldn't over dribble as much because of A) the Pacers offensive scheme and B) the increase in talent of the players around him. You have to pass to George, Stephenson, West and Hibbert if they have a better shot. If he doesn't consistently, he should expect to be benched.

I'm not saying these problems won't persist to some degree, but all of these factors should impact him positively as a player, which in turn will reflect positively on his advanced statistics.

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 12:02 AM
Do I really have to explain the difference between being one of the main guys on a garbage team and being a bench role player going against second stringers on a contender?

It's really not very complicated.
no, you don't need to explain that. but you made it sound like role was a big factor, so i'm asking for you to explain why it never made a difference on the sixers. his role in their offense has grown exponentially from year one to year four yet the numbers never got better OR worse. they've stayed exactly the same.

goalie
02-21-2014, 12:03 AM
Dumb gamble by the pacers. Granger will get bought out and end up on a playoff team IND has to face later on.

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 12:04 AM
actually generally speaking that is known NOT to be the case at all. for the most part teammates have only a small impact on a players efficiency but let's pretend for a moment that what you were saying is true.

Tell me what would be Carlos Boozer's DRtg on the 76ers. Hell tell me what would be his WS and WS/48 hell even his ORtg. Oh and question when you speak of a player's efficiency which measure of efficiency are you speaking of?

I'd love for you to show me a study that suggest that this isn't true because in every single statistical circle its a proven fact.


don't you think considering the fact that he's played with 40 some teammates in 4 years, yet his efficiency numbers have remained incredibly consistent (in a very bad way) during that time, that it reflects more on him than his teammates?

You clearly don't know the cause of Evan's efficiency woes.

You may not have known that to start the season Evan and Brett made it a point that he attacks the rim more and tries to get himself easy buckets. The result Evan FTR was more twice that of his best season (rookie year) and he was getting better shots in the lane and converting at a top 3 level for all swingmen. At that point he was boasting a TS% of greater than 56% and shooting greater than 50% from the field his short coming however was that he was shooting under 20% from the 3 and attempting more than two a game.

As the season has progressed he foolishly went away from his early season success of attacking the paint became more perimeter oriented and as a result his volume scoring and his efficiency have taken a major hit (as well as his confidence).

unleashthebeast
02-21-2014, 12:05 AM
Man I hated Granger in that series 2 years ago, but I would soooooooooooooooooo love for him to come to Miami now. Can't get any better motivation than that.

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 12:06 AM
Agreed 100%. The Pacers and Philly are on opposite sides of the NBA spectrum right now. I've read concerns about Turnovers offensive efficiency, his over dribbling and his sub par defense.

As a back up he will have less opportunities to shoot, but more opportunities to make an impact as a go to player on the second unit.

Team defense and defensive philosophy, especially under Nate McMillan, should impact Turners defensive play positively. If you don't play D on the Pacers, you don't play.

He shouldn't over dribble as much because of A) the Pacers offensive scheme and B) the increase in talent of the players around him. You have to pass to George, Stephenson, West and Hibbert if they have a better shot. If he doesn't consistently, he should expect to be benched.

I'm not saying these problems won't persist to some degree, but all of these factors should impact him positively as a player, which in turn will reflect positively on his advanced statistics.

Two years ago when Evan started alongside Iggy it was the BEST he has ever played defensively especially with the system in which we had in place. I expect to see Evan return to such form given his new home on one of the best defensive teams the league has ever seen.

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 12:09 AM
Tell me what would be Carlos Boozer's DRtg on the 76ers. Hell tell me what would be his WS and WS/48 hell even his ORtg. Oh and question when you speak of a player's efficiency which measure of efficiency are you speaking of?

I'd love for you to show me a study that suggest that this isn't true because in every single statistical circle its a proven fact.

there is not a single stat guy on the planet that puts any stock in DRTG so the point is moot. even still, i thought we were talking about offensive efficiency which in my experience changes very little from situation to situation.


You clearly don't know the cause of Evan's efficiency woes.

You may not have known that to start the season Evan and Brett made it a point that he attacks the rim more and tries to get himself easy buckets. The result Evan FTR was more twice that of his best season (rookie year) and he was getting better shots in the lane and converting at a top 3 level for all swingmen. At that point he was boasting a TS% of greater than 56% and shooting greater than 50% from the field his short coming however was that he was shooting under 20% from the 3 and attempting more than two a game.

As the season has progressed he foolishly went away from his early season success of attacking the paint became more perimeter oriented and as a result his volume scoring and his efficiency have taken a major hit (as well as his confidence).
right. so what you are saying is that left to his own devices he goes back to what is natural for him. don't you figure after 4 years it's pretty clear that it's just Evan's game, it's who he is.

ombada
02-21-2014, 12:15 AM
Another fun fact. Teammates, system and coaching have great impact on your advanced statistics. Just because Turner's number were so poor in one of the poorest offensive teams in the NBA over the last four years doesn't mean it would reflect such in every team he goes to.

actually generally speaking that is known NOT to be the case at all. for the most part teammates have only a small impact on a players efficiency but let's pretend for a moment that what you were saying is true.

don't you think considering the fact that he's played with 40 some teammates in 4 years, yet his efficiency numbers have remained incredibly consistent (in a very bad way) during that time, that it reflects more on him than his teammates?

care to make a friendly little wager on what?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the team was consistently mediocre or bad during this stretch as well. The teammates might have a minimal impact, but if the coaches and upper management also have minimal impact then both combined make the impact greater. I mean switching franchises is different than switching teammates on a consistently losing franchise.

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 12:17 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but the team was consistently mediocre or bad during this stretch as well. The teammates might have a minimal impact, but if the coaches and upper management also have minimal impact then both combined make the impact greater. I mean switching franchises is different than switching teammates on a consistently listing franchise.

very true my friend. very true. you are not wrong about that.

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 12:20 AM
there is not a single stat guy on the planet that puts any stock in DRTG so the point is moot. even still, i thought we were talking about offensive efficiency which in my experience changes very little from situation to situation.

There are literally THOUSANDS of "stats guys" that put stock into DRTG. Look up the WS formula. Also you didn't answer my question.

How would Roy Hibbert's ORTG look on a team like Philly?

In YOUR experience. That's great, now tell me the experiences of the vastly more knowledgeable statistical community.


right. so what you are saying is that left to his own devices he goes back to what is natural for him. don't you figure after 4 years it's pretty clear that it's just Evan's game, it's who he is.

See thing is you can never say that for certain. Do you remember Jalen Rose's first 5 years in the league? What did he do in his 6th?

After last season I gave up on Evan TBH but with the way he started this season offensively he showed that there may be something there that we may not have seen before. Key for him is to keep his head in the right lane and play within himself. I see no reason why he can't be a semi productive bench option especially when you consider his play making and rebounding ability as a winger.

PacersForLife
02-21-2014, 12:21 AM
Man I hated Granger in that series 2 years ago, but I would soooooooooooooooooo love for him to come to Miami now. Can't get any better motivation than that.

I'd be surprised if that happens.

Tony_Starks
02-21-2014, 12:27 AM
no, you don't need to explain that. but you made it sound like role was a big factor, so i'm asking for you to explain why it never made a difference on the sixers. his role in their offense has grown exponentially from year one to year four yet the numbers never got better OR worse. they've stayed exactly the same.

With the Sixers he was expected to live up to lotto pick expectations. In reality he's not that type of player. He's a player that can do a bunch of stuff good but nothing great. Lamar Odom or Boris Diaw type. When those players started their careers they were expected to be the man and couldn't handle it. Then when they later got into complimentary no pressure roles they flourished.

His numbers won't even matter in Indy as long as he plays hard and gives them a spark off the bench. Perfect situation for him.

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 12:28 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but the team was consistently mediocre or bad during this stretch as well. The teammates might have a minimal impact, but if the coaches and upper management also have minimal impact then both combined make the impact greater. I mean switching franchises is different than switching teammates on a consistently losing franchise.

Chris Bosh eFG% in Tor 49.5%
Chris Bosh eFG% in Mia 52.2%

LeBron James eFG% in Cle 50.9%
LeBron James eFG% in Mia 57.5%

Dwyane Wade eFG% prior big 3 49.6%
Dwyane Wade eFG% post big 3 52.5%

Not very minimal right?

Of course there are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking in basketball the better your teammates are the better looks you are featured to see. Less doubles/defensive attention usually results in easier more high % FGs.

In the case of Bosh you wouldn't see his TS% reflecting such a major change simply because his FTr would drop as a a result of the change in his offensive utilization (plays more as a jump shooting option now so that makes sense).

In basketball its more or less understood that your teammates have huge impact on your efficiency. Very rarely do you see players become more efficient when they lose good teammates.

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 12:31 AM
With the Sixers he was expected to live up to lotto pick expectations. In reality he's not that type of player. He's a player that can do a bunch of stuff good but nothing great. Lamar Odom or Boris Diaw type. When those players started their careers they were expected to be the man and couldn't handle it. Then when they later got into complimentary no pressure roles they flourished.

His numbers won't even matter in Indy as long as he plays hard and gives them a spark off the bench. Perfect situation for him.

For the Pacers sake he better believe that as well. Evan seems to think more highly of himself than even he should. I'm not certain how much he'd like coming off the bench. He was adamant that he wants to be a starter in this league. If he takes the challenge head on and does what made him successful in the first 20 or so games of this season this deal can turn out to be a very very good one for the Pacers. If he plays like he has in the last 15. They'd be better off just letting him play garbage time in blow out games.

P&GRealist
02-21-2014, 12:38 AM
Man I hated Granger in that series 2 years ago, but I would soooooooooooooooooo love for him to come to Miami now. Can't get any better motivation than that.

How much more help does LeBron need? :confused:

hoosiercubsfan
02-21-2014, 12:39 AM
How much more help does LeBron need? :confused:

Better question is how much help could Granger give him? He clearly isn't the same guy he was before the injuries. And it is doubtful he will ever get back there.

DillyDill
02-21-2014, 12:40 AM
But Danny is owe 14 mill this season. Can they afford to buy that big amount out any?

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 12:46 AM
But Danny is owe 14 mill this season. Can they afford to buy that big amount out any?

More than half of which has already been paid. Yeah we can afford to buy out the remainder and still have it count against the cap (which may be more important).

I want Danny to stay :(

DillyDill
02-21-2014, 12:55 AM
More than half of which has already been paid. Yeah we can afford to buy out the remainder and still have it count against the cap (which may be more important).

I want Danny to stay :(

Thanks I get it now. It'll be scary if he go's to miami, he'll be out for revenge vs Indy

hoosiercubsfan
02-21-2014, 01:36 AM
Thanks I get it now. It'll be scary if he go's to miami, he'll be out for revenge vs Indy

No it won't. His knees are shot and he is trending the wrong way. He is more than likely done as a player. Injuries sapped what he had left.

cmellofan15
02-21-2014, 02:31 AM
No it won't. His knees are shot and he is trending the wrong way. He is more than likely done as a player. Injuries sapped what he had left.

I could definitely see Phoenix working with him. They've always been great at rejuvenating the old, washed up guys.

b@llhog24
02-21-2014, 03:27 AM
I get the concept of this adding depth and all but two players that played over 100 games with a combined win shares of 2 are supposed to make Indiana more "stacked"?

P&GRealist
02-21-2014, 03:29 AM
I get the concept of this adding depth and all but two players that played over 100 games with a combined win shares of 2 are supposed to make Indiana more "stacked"?

Don't see what they do individually, but rather how they help the team and how they mesh with everyone else.

One thing is for sure, Granger was basically a nothing, while Turner himself is a something. That's already a big improvement for Indiana. Granger was a walking corpse, at least Turner has some life and purpose to himself and his career.

b@llhog24
02-21-2014, 03:29 AM
Btw where are the people that like to scream about "loyalty" now? Granger has been with the Pacers his whole career and they just shipped him off because he's damaged goods. **** loyalty.

b@llhog24
02-21-2014, 03:31 AM
Don't see what they do individually, but rather how they help the team and how they mesh with everyone else.

One thing is for sure, Granger was basically a nothing, while Turner himself is a something. That's already a big improvement for Indiana. Granger was a walking corpse, at least Turner has some life and purpose to himself and his career.

Not saying they aren't help. Warm bodies are always welcomed. I just can't see myself looking back at this move and saying 'Damn this put Indiana over the top." Indy was always "stacked."

P&GRealist
02-21-2014, 03:32 AM
Btw where are the people that like to scream about "loyalty" now? Granger has been with the Pacers his whole career and they just shipped him off because he's damaged goods. **** loyalty.

Danny Granger and LeBron James aren't on the same level

b@llhog24
02-21-2014, 03:34 AM
Danny Granger and LeBron James aren't on the same level

Doesn't matter, the concept still applies. If Bron (or any other top tier star Melo/CP3) were in Granger's position you don't hear a word out of nobody.

DillyDill
02-21-2014, 03:47 AM
No it won't. His knees are shot and he is trending the wrong way. He is more than likely done as a player. Injuries sapped what he had left.

You really think so?... I still feel he can be a deadly spot up shooter for them at least

sunsfan88
02-21-2014, 05:01 AM
Evan Turner is not that good. Turner is a bad defender, and a terrible shooter. For the season he's shooting 42% from the floor.

Good news is that he's better than Granger who has been horrific this season.

Turner is the much better rebounder and passer but he's also turnover prone. Granger is a much better FT shooter and way less turnover prone.

No risk for Indiana really. But no way acquiring this scrub makes them the team to beat or some s**t.

Blitzace137
02-21-2014, 05:01 AM
I could definitely see Phoenix working with him. They've always been great at rejuvenating the old, washed up guys.

If I'm him, PHX is at the top of my list if there interested, there medical staff is the best in the NBA, by far.

Blitzace137
02-21-2014, 05:05 AM
Btw where are the people that like to scream about "loyalty" now? Granger has been with the Pacers his whole career and they just shipped him off because he's damaged goods. **** loyalty.

This is a business and some fans don't get that, even Kobe asked to be traded right before they turned it around trading for Pau. If you get injured most organization won't think twice about getting rid of you. Your only obligation as a player is to honor your contract and make the best decision for yourself and family once the contract is over.

hoosiercubsfan
02-21-2014, 08:55 AM
You really think so?... I still feel he can be a deadly spot up shooter for them at least


Granger spent this 2013-14 season averaging 8.3 points per game on a woeful .359 shooting percentage. It'd be one thing if Granger were trending in the right direction, but his February averages sit at 8.6 pointers per game on .353 shooting.
http://www.indycornrows.com/2014/2/20/5431630/can-evan-turner-be-the-necessary-bench-upgrade-to-help-the-pacers

There is no indication that he can get back to being the deadly spot up shooter. It isn't out of the possibility for certain but to this point he hasn't shown it. Not to mention that he is a free agent after this season anyway. And I highly doubt the Pacers where even considering trying to resign him. So if he can get back to a semblance of what he once was he wouldn't have been doing it on the Pacers anyway.

Also I think many on this board are over blowing what the Pacers want of Turner. He isn't coming in to be the man he is coming in to be what Granger was at this point a role player. Turner just happens to be younger and more athletic than Granger is right now. I don't think he is going to put up worse numbers than Granger has this season. And if he does he simply rides the bench. There is enough other talent around him that if he doesn't play well he simply doesn't play. Though I am sure the hope is you put him on a team of good players that his game will rise as a result. I have no problems bringing him into the locker room with players like George, West, Hibbert he won't be an issue at all.

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 09:32 AM
Chris Bosh eFG% in Tor 49.5%
Chris Bosh eFG% in Mia 52.2%

LeBron James eFG% in Cle 50.9%
LeBron James eFG% in Mia 57.5%

Dwyane Wade eFG% prior big 3 49.6%
Dwyane Wade eFG% post big 3 52.5%

Not very minimal right?
that's great except i didn't say teammates had zero effect, i was stating they have minimal effect on offensive efficiency. and i've provide a few other metrics of my own. obviously 3 offensive superstars playing together in their prime helps each one, but by these metrics the changes are in fact marginal except for James.

Wade PPS prior to big 3: 1.379
Wade PPS after big 3: 1.353 (-0.026)

Bosh PPS prior to big 3: 1.399
Bosh PPS after big 3: 1.345 (-0.054)

James PPS prior to big 3: 1.337
James PPS after big 3: 1.475 (+0.138)

Wade TS prior to big 3: .565
Wade TS after big 3: .575 (+.010)

Bosh TS prior to big 3: .571
Bosh TS after big 3: .579 (+.008)

James TS prior to big 3: .562
James TS after big 3: .621 (+.059)

go figure, one of the greatest players in the history of the game has gotten better in his prime.

by using such an extreme example you haven't really added to the credibility of your argument.

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 09:51 AM
There are literally THOUSANDS of "stats guys" that put stock into DRTG. Look up the WS formula. Also you didn't answer my question.
as part of a much larger formula sure. but you asked specifically about DRTG and everyone knows it's completely useless on it's own for assessing a players actual effect on team defense.

How would Roy Hibbert's ORTG look on a team like Philly?
i don't know enough about ORTG, or care enough about it to hazard a guess. i would be willing to bet my shirt that his PPS or true shooting numbers would be affected marginally. players are what they are. turner is a poor scorer who shoots anyways.

In YOUR experience. That's great, now tell me the experiences of the vastly more knowledgeable statistical community.
i can only tell you what i've observed through my own experience just as you can. by the measures that i care about, which is purely the return on investment of a players shot attempt, players generally do not see a particularly large variance based on teammates.

but who are you to talk about the more knowledgeable statistical community? you completely disregard what the stats say about Iverson so you've demonstrated that you can't be trusted to use them responsibly.


See thing is you can never say that for certain. Do you remember Jalen Rose's first 5 years in the league? What did he do in his 6th?

you sure you want to go there?

Jalen Rose first 5 years:

1.27 Points Per Shot
.535 True Shooting

Jalen Rose year 6:

1.21 Points Per Shot
.547 True Shooting

almost identical. you are either completely misunderstanding the point i made in the first place, or you are just tossing **** against the wall and hoping it sticks.

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 09:55 AM
that's great except i didn't see teammates had zero effect, i was stating they have minimal effect on offensive efficiency. and i've provide a few other metrics of my own. obviously 3 offensive superstars playing together in their prime helps each one, but by these metrics the changes are in fact marginal except for James. go figure, one of the greatest players in the history of the game has gotten better in his prime.

by using such an extreme example you haven't really added to the credibility of your argument.

Wade PPS prior to big 3: 1.379
Wade PPS after big 3: 1.353 (-0.026)

Bosh PPS prior to big 3: 1.399
Bosh PPS after big 3: 1.345 (-0.054)

James PPS prior to big 3: 1.337
James PPS after big 3: 1.475 (+0.138)

Wade TS prior to big 3: .565
Wade TS after big 3: .575 (+.010)

Bosh TS prior to big 3: .571
Bosh TS after big 3: .579 (+.008)

James TS prior to big 3: .562
James TS after big 3: .621 (+.059)

Ahhhhh I knew you'd go with TS% and PPS.

I already explained why TS% and PPS made no sense in this argument since the roles in which the players play have changed. Bosh no longer attacks the basket and is more of a spot up shooter thus meaning his FTR has seen as SIGNIFICANT decline thus hurting his TS% and PPS. Same for Wade.

eFG% may not be the best overall measure of scoring efficiency but when it comes measuring the impact that a team's has on your shooting efficiency and ORtg its basically set in stone.

Also this is not an extreme example this is the most recent example that makes the most sense in this scenario. Would you care to give examples yourself?

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 10:06 AM
Ahhhhh I knew you'd go with TS% and PPS.

I already explained why TS% and PPS made no sense in this argument since the roles in which the players play have changed. Bosh no longer attacks the basket and is more of a spot up shooter thus meaning his FTR has seen as SIGNIFICANT decline thus hurting his TS% and PPS. Same for Wade.

eFG% may not be the best overall measure of scoring efficiency but when it comes measuring the impact that a team's has on your shooting efficiency and ORtg its basically set in stone.

Also this is not an extreme example this is the most recent example that makes the most sense in this scenario. Would you care to give examples yourself?
It's an extreme example. You've taken 3 superstars, all of which will land in the HOF, joining together at their physical prime.

I could give you examples but we'd go back and forth cherry picking to support our points. That's why i said in my experience, because it's an area that i've paid particular attention to ever since these sort of stats became available. I am aware there is no 100% certainty for each player. I imagine he will see a small bump as long as he shoots far less, but because his PPS and TS% were similar and just as poor in the early years when he took 7-9 shots a game as they are now that he's taking 15 i feel safe in predicting that it won't be enough to take him out of the bottom 3rd in that regard.

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 10:07 AM
as part of a much larger formula sure. but you asked specifically about DRTG and everyone knows it's completely useless on it's own for assessing a players actual effect on team defense

If you buy into WS your also buy into DRtg. There is nothing specific there, it is one of the metrics that is incorporated into a player's DWS and WS. You may not use it to gauge and individual's ability defensively (unless isolated in which it's one of the best) but you use it when you value a player based on their WS.


i don't know enough about ORTG, or care enough about it to hazard a guess. i would be willing to bet my shirt that his PPS or true shooting numbers would be affected marginally. players are what they are. turner is a poor scorer who shoots anyways.

Well you didn't answer the question.


i can only tell you what i've observed through my own experience just as you can. by the measures that i care about, which is purely the return on investment of a players shot attempt, players generally do not see a particularly large variance based on teammates.

Why are you acting as if what you see are fact? I mean seriously.


but who are you to talk about the more knowledgeable statistical community? you completely disregard what the stats say about Iverson so you've demonstrated that you can't be trusted to use them responsibly.

I always acknowledge what stats say about Allen Iverson. He is PISS POOR as compared to other greats. What I don't care for is those who hate on Allen Iverson based on his persona and act as if stats are the end all.

Who am I I am a guy who knows enough about stats and have read enough expert opinions to form a pretty decent one of my own with the backing of what they have studied.


you sure you want to go there?

Jalen Rose first 5 years:

1.27 Points Per Shot
.535 True Shooting

Jalen Rose year 6:

1.21 Points Per Shot
.547 True Shooting

almost identical. you are either completely misunderstanding the point i made in the first place, or you are just tossing **** against the wall and hoping it sticks.

LMFAO.... Apparently stats are the end all now namely TS% and PPS right? Smh.

You spoke of Evan's GAME. You said Evan's GAME is what it is. I simply said that despite what a player does in his first 4+ years in the league you can't say he is what he is. After Jalen's first 5 years in the league at the ripe age of 26 many said he is what he is but he then turned into a solid 20 ppg scorer and rather solid all round player being a fringe all star/snub for multiple years.

All I am simply saying is that I'm not willing to say Evan is what he is without seeing a bit more. You nor I never said anything about TS or PPS. You're getting carried away.

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 10:14 AM
It's an extreme example. You've taken 3 superstars, all of which will land in the HOF, joining together at their physical prime.

I could give you examples but we'd go back and forth cherry picking to support our points. That's why i said in my experience, because it's an area that i've paid particular attention to ever since these sort of stats became available. I am aware there is no 100% certainty for each player. I imagine he will see a small bump as long as he shoots far less, but because his PPS and TS% were similar and just as poor in the early years when he took 7-9 shots a game as they are now that he's taking 15 i feel safe in predicting that it won't be enough to take him out of the bottom 3rd in that regard.

I honestly have no issue with you saying anything about your experience but you're acting as if your experience is fact. It isn't.

There have been statistical studies that state that your teammates helps your shooting efficiency which is basically common sense. Like I admitted already there are exceptions to that "rule" (case in point Kobe the year he went off for 35 or Dana Barros when he left the Sonics and came to Philly) but by and large when you have better teammates around you taking defensive pressure/attention off of you you get easier shots and by the percentages you shoot more efficiently when you see less double/triple teams.

The fact that they were 3 superstars is what makes it a great example. It meant that by themselves they saw the vast majority of the defensive attention and when they joined together that would have changed. Thus reflecting in their shooting percentages.

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 10:18 AM
If you buy into WS your also buy into DRtg. There is nothing specific there, it is one of the metrics that is incorporated into a player's DWS and WS. You may not use it to gauge and individual's ability defensively (unless isolated in which it's one of the best) but you use it when you value a player based on their WS.
sure but at no point in time did i ever make any comments about Turners defense, or DRTG so who cares.



Well you didn't answer the question.
i'm not in the habit of making things up to avoid looking silly. sorry if that disappoints you.



Why are you acting as if what you see are fact? I mean seriously.
if you spend a lifetime observing something, you have a right to say what you have observed. you don't have to agree with me, but you haven't shown anything to really contradict or disprove what i've said. :shrug:



LMFAO.... Apparently stats are the end all now namely TS% and PPS right? Smh.

You spoke of Evan's GAME. You said Evan's GAME is what it is. I simply said that despite what a player does in his first 4+ years in the league you can't say he is what he is. After Jalen's first 5 years in the league at the ripe age of 26 many said he is what he is but he then turned into a solid 20 ppg scorer and rather solid all round player being a fringe all star/snub for multiple years.

All I am simply saying is that I'm not willing to say Evan is what he is without seeing a bit more. You nor I never said anything about TS or PPS. You're getting carried away.

this whole conversation has been about scoring efficiency. just because you don't have the ability to stay focused doesn't make it my problem. try again dude.

Swashcuff
02-21-2014, 10:37 AM
Lmfao @ spending a lifetime observing something. You are really a classic.

Colts_4_life
02-21-2014, 10:47 AM
Relax..............We're talking about Evan freaking Turner!

Pacerlive
02-21-2014, 12:19 PM
no, you don't need to explain that. but you made it sound like role was a big factor, so i'm asking for you to explain why it never made a difference on the sixers. his role in their offense has grown exponentially from year one to year four yet the numbers never got better OR worse. they've stayed exactly the same.
Has his USG% increased exponentially?

It really hasn't so I think you making too much of an assumption here by defining his role has gotten sooo much bigger when in reality he has been relied upon just a little bit more this year.

I am not sure how much Turner can change in some 20 some games but the Pacers have flipped the switch with Lance who early on was sub .50 TS% and a poor defender so it can be done.

In the end of the day Granger was struggling even worse than Turner so the combination of him and Allen are good insurance to have especially when Lance could walk and Scola is dealing with a elbow issue.

kdspurman
02-21-2014, 02:04 PM
Seems Granger wants to be bought out

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 02:18 PM
Has his USG% increased exponentially?

It really hasn't so I think you making too much of an assumption here by defining his role has gotten sooo much bigger when in reality he has been relied upon just a little bit more this year.
okay so his usage has only gone up 42% compared to his shot attempts which over the same period of time went up 126%. what exactly are you suggesting that means. i'm not sure there is anything to take from that to suggest that his role hasn't increased.


I am not sure how much Turner can change in some 20 some games but the Pacers have flipped the switch with Lance who early on was sub .50 TS% and a poor defender so it can be done.

In the end of the day Granger was struggling even worse than Turner so the combination of him and Allen are good insurance to have especially when Lance could walk and Scola is dealing with a elbow issue.

i sure hope Lance doesn't bolt but if he does i hope the Raptors are there with their cheque book ready.

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 02:19 PM
Seems Granger wants to be bought out
ughh this is the part of sports that really needs to change.

2-ONE-5
02-21-2014, 02:37 PM
i expected him to be bought regardless of his request. there is no need for either party to be together.

kdspurman
02-21-2014, 02:52 PM
i expected him to be bought regardless of his request. there is no need for either party to be together.

Sixers might be able to get something for him if they move him in the off-season.

Clippersfan86
02-21-2014, 03:02 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/1618/will-sixers-let-danny-granger-decide-future

Clippers frontrunners for Granger if they want him.

Pacerlive
02-21-2014, 03:12 PM
okay so his usage has only gone up 42% compared to his shot attempts which over the same period of time went up 126%. what exactly are you suggesting that means. i'm not sure there is anything to take from that to suggest that his role hasn't increased.



i sure hope Lance doesn't bolt but if he does i hope the Raptors are there with their cheque book ready.

You can get cute with percentages while using his rookie numbers but 3 more shot attempts is hardly a great increase. If anything he has been on a linear increase since his rookie year which is to be expected of most lotto picks.

2-ONE-5
02-21-2014, 04:30 PM
Sixers might be able to get something for him if they move him in the off-season.

i dont think so. no team is gonna take him on a S/T

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 05:37 PM
You can get cute with percentages while using his rookie numbers but 3 more shot attempts is hardly a great increase. If anything he has been on a linear increase since his rookie year which is to be expected of most lotto picks.

i have no idea what you are talking about. over 3 seasons he's increased from 6 shots a game to 15. that's an expanded role in the offense no matter how you look at it. not sure why that is a point of contention.

Pacerlive
02-21-2014, 06:05 PM
i have no idea what you are talking about. over 3 seasons he's increased from 6 shots a game to 15. that's an expanded role in the offense no matter how you look at it. not sure why that is a point of contention.
Your not good at math are you?
Linear vs exponential. Tuner like most guys on their rookie contract will have expanded roles now what is hard is to try to seperate a players development vs increase useage since useage can be hinderance on efficiency for most developing players.

If saying he hasn't seen a decrease in efficiency with an expanded role then I think that player has developed. You are claiming the opposite NO?

Going from 20% to 24% in USG% isn't that great but doing it while keeping your efficiency the same isn't a negative by advance metrics. It certainly doesn't make your point that he has stayed the same since people track USG% and efficiency and they counter oppose eachother for the average role player which Turner is.

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 06:53 PM
Your not good at math are you?
Linear vs exponential. Tuner like most guys on their rookie contract will have expanded roles now what is hard is to try to seperate a players development vs increase useage since useage can be hinderance on efficiency for most developing players.

If saying he hasn't seen a decrease in efficiency with an expanded role then I think that player has developed. You are claiming the opposite NO?

Going from 20% to 24% in USG% isn't that great but doing it while keeping your efficiency the same isn't a negative by advance metrics. It certainly doesn't make your point that he has stayed the same since people track USG% and efficiency and they counter oppose eachother for the average role player which Turner is.
you can spin it any way you like but if you go from incredibly inefficient to quite inefficient we are arguing degrees of shittiness.

13/14 - 51st among SF's
12/13 - 67th among SF's
11/12 - 68th among SF's
10/11 - 68th among SF's

Pacerlive
02-21-2014, 09:25 PM
you can spin it any way you like but if you go from incredibly inefficient to quite inefficient we are arguing degrees of shittiness.

13/14 - 51st among SF's
12/13 - 67th among SF's
11/12 - 68th among SF's
10/11 - 68th among SF's
Which is why you should rank on useage and minutes. Being the primary focus of defenses sucks and it also why guys rank lower on the efficiency scale. Even smart all around players suffer in this way which is why Hayward sucks this year and it also explains the resurgence of Beasley.

To me this also has less to do with Turner or more to do with Granger and the likelyhood of his improvement. The Pacers had no other options here and Granger was old and less efficient and didn't fit that nicely next to PG.

Turners useage and minutes will be drastically reduced with the Pacers since he will play along PG and one primary big with a low post game. He will no longer be the focus and that alone will shift the defensive pressure off of him to be more efficient player.

2-ONE-5
02-21-2014, 09:51 PM
Turner wasnt the primary focus of defenses. hes ok and being in a better situation with a team like Indy will benefit both. he has seen the Heat in the playoffs, hes hit game winners (multiple unwanted ones this year alone) and hes not afraid of anyone. He just isnt worth that 9 mil QO at the moment

Jamiecballer
02-21-2014, 10:20 PM
Which is why you should rank on useage and minutes. Being the primary focus of defenses sucks and it also why guys rank lower on the efficiency scale. Even smart all around players suffer in this way which is why Hayward sucks this year and it also explains the resurgence of Beasley.

To me this also has less to do with Turner or more to do with Granger and the likelyhood of his improvement. The Pacers had no other options here and Granger was old and less efficient and didn't fit that nicely next to PG.

Turners useage and minutes will be drastically reduced with the Pacers since he will play along PG and one primary big with a low post game. He will no longer be the focus and that alone will shift the defensive pressure off of him to be more efficient player.

you continually ignore one very important fact - this is the first year that Turner has been a major factor in his teams offense. so it does nothing to explain the previous three years, and even this year it's not like he's the only guy, there are 3 members of the 76er's all averaging 17+ a game.

there is no reason why he can't be an ok bench guy for you guys should you need him but he's not particularly good at anything. enough with the lame excuses for his horrible efficiency.

Pacerlive
02-21-2014, 10:46 PM
you continually ignore one very important fact - this is the first year that Turner has been a major factor in his teams offense. so it does nothing to explain the previous three years, and even this year it's not like he's the only guy, there are 3 members of the 76er's all averaging 17+ a game.

there is no reason why he can't be an ok bench guy for you guys should you need him but he's not particularly good at anything. enough with the lame excuses for his horrible efficiency.
You probably define major factor differently than I do. I base it on useage and minutes not shot attempts plus 3 more this year isn't something I would define as being a major factor when compared to last year. Per synergy he is good at pnr ball handler PPP which is exactly why I think he will fit in nicely with West, Scola.

He is just as good as Lance in transition which is also why I think he has some solid value in that area of weakness for the Pacers as well.

Jamiecballer
02-22-2014, 04:04 PM
You probably define major factor differently than I do. I base it on useage and minutes not shot attempts plus 3 more this year isn't something I would define as being a major factor when compared to last year. Per synergy he is good at pnr ball handler PPP which is exactly why I think he will fit in nicely with West, Scola.

He is just as good as Lance in transition which is also why I think he has some solid value in that area of weakness for the Pacers as well.

if he shoots when open and keeps the ball moving the rest of the time it's a good move. if he thinks of himself as a "scorer" because he's a 17 PPG guy this year in Philly and tries to assume that role in Indy it's a bad move. i suppose it will all come down to the coach and the maturity of the player.

WVNowitzki
02-22-2014, 04:22 PM
Edit: I'll put this in the other thread.

JasonJohnHorn
02-23-2014, 10:31 PM
I'm not sure I get this one either. This makes NO sense to me.

In terms of salary. Turner was actually the better deal. He was only 6.6 mil, compared to Granger's 14 mil and both are expiring. The 76ers will be paying over 7 mil more than they would have if they had kept Turner.


In terms of trade bait in a sign-and-trade, Turner was the better option as well. Turner isn't an All-Star and his FG% is a little low, but he has showed signs of improvement and is young. If a team wanted to sign him and needed his Bird rights, the 76ers could have worked out a sign-and-trade. In theory, the Sixers could do the same with Granger's Bird rights, but let's be honest. Granger will be lucky to get the MLE this offseason, and NO team needs to do a sign-and-trade for that. After coming off of two season where he went down with season ending injuries, no team is going to give a 30-year-old player whose numbers are down a big contract, so having Granger's Bird rights is useless.

From a basketball stand point, this doesn't make sense either. When Granger was in his 3rd-6th season, he was CLEARLY better than Turner, yes, BUT Granger, in 29 games this season with over 20 minutes a game, is shooting under .400 from the field, EVEN LOWER than Turner. Turner's rebounding and assist numbers are better, as is his assist-to-turnover ratio this year. Turner is ABSOLUTELY the better basketball player right now. IF Granger returns to his form from three years ago, and IF he stays with Philly, this will be a great trade, but I'm not sure either of those are going to happen.

It seems to me that the Sixers just made the trade for the sake of making a trade, and I imagine somebody would have been willing to give up a first rounder (the Spurs were on the horn... they seem like they would part with a first, and there were other playoff teams who likely would have done the same). They could have got SOMETHING more than what they got.


As far as I can see the dropped their sign-and-trade leverage, they took on a bigger contract, and the got the lesser player. On all three counts they lose. And if you are of the mind that they are actually trying to put an inferior product on the floor to lose and get a better draft position then getting Granger back still doesn't make sense. A second round draft pick would have been more valuable.



Can somebody explain this one to me?

xnick5757
02-23-2014, 10:36 PM
I'm not sure I get this one either. This makes NO sense to me.

In terms of salary. Turner was actually the better deal. He was only 6.6 mil, compared to Granger's 14 mil and both are expiring. The 76ers will be paying over 7 mil more than they would have if they had kept Turner.


In terms of trade bait in a sign-and-trade, Turner was the better option as well. Turner isn't an All-Star and his FG% is a little low, but he has showed signs of improvement and is young. If a team wanted to sign him and needed his Bird rights, the 76ers could have worked out a sign-and-trade. In theory, the Sixers could do the same with Granger's Bird rights, but let's be honest. Granger will be lucky to get the MLE this offseason, and NO team needs to do a sign-and-trade for that. After coming off of two season where he went down with season ending injuries, no team is going to give a 30-year-old player whose numbers are down a big contract, so having Granger's Bird rights is useless.

From a basketball stand point, this doesn't make sense either. When Granger was in his 3rd-6th season, he was CLEARLY better than Turner, yes, BUT Granger, in 29 games this season with over 20 minutes a game, is shooting under .400 from the field, EVEN LOWER than Turner. Turner's rebounding and assist numbers are better, as is his assist-to-turnover ratio this year. Turner is ABSOLUTELY the better basketball player right now. IF Granger returns to his form from three years ago, and IF he stays with Philly, this will be a great trade, but I'm not sure either of those are going to happen.

It seems to me that the Sixers just made the trade for the sake of making a trade, and I imagine somebody would have been willing to give up a first rounder (the Spurs were on the horn... they seem like they would part with a first, and there were other playoff teams who likely would have done the same). They could have got SOMETHING more than what they got.


As far as I can see the dropped their sign-and-trade leverage, they took on a bigger contract, and the got the lesser player. On all three counts they lose. And if you are of the mind that they are actually trying to put an inferior product on the floor to lose and get a better draft position then getting Granger back still doesn't make sense. A second round draft pick would have been more valuable.



Can somebody explain this one to me?


Sixers were under the minimum salary spend mark, so the extra money to granger is inconsequential as they would have had to pay that money out anyways. And they got a 2nd round pick for the trouble.


turner is garbage. no one was going to give up a 1st for him in this market.

P&GRealist
02-23-2014, 10:37 PM
Because Granger was giving them nothing while Turner is younger, greater upside, won't interfere with PG doing his thing, and they're all expirings (including) Lavoy.

Stop over analyzing things.

ChiTownPacerFan
02-23-2014, 10:38 PM
Something about getting themselves to the salary floor. I don't get the economics either. Also, tanking! They want to be bad. Very bad!

2-ONE-5
02-23-2014, 10:39 PM
Tuner isnt garbage hes alright but he is not part of our future and wasnt gonna be offered his QO nor is he worth it. its also important we continue to tank and stop letting Tuner hit buzzer beaters.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-23-2014, 10:40 PM
Work out a buyout and save a couple of dollars.

DallasTrilla23
02-23-2014, 10:50 PM
Because they were winning too many damn games.

ldawg
02-23-2014, 10:53 PM
Because Granger was giving them nothing while Turner is younger, greater upside, won't interfere with PG doing his thing, and they're all expirings (including) Lavoy.

Stop over analyzing things.The question was about Sixers not Indy. Yes it make sense for Indy but for Sixers not so much. They got a second round pick

Jeffy25
02-23-2014, 11:27 PM
PHI had to do it to add salary to reach the floor. They were like 11.7 million under.

The problem with salary floors.....is what you just said.

kdspurman
02-24-2014, 06:41 PM
438080591234605056

Clippersfan86
02-24-2014, 06:44 PM
Clippers can offer him a starting job if he's in shape, no other team pursuing him can say that. I'm sure even at this stage he can't be worse than Barnes or Dudley. If we grab Granger/Davis... in replacement of Mullens/Jamison.. watch out!

c.c.
02-24-2014, 06:48 PM
Clippers can offer him a starting job if he's in shape, no other team pursuing him can say that. I'm sure even at this stage he can't be worse than Barnes or Dudley. If we grab Granger/Davis... in replacement of Mullens/Jamison.. watch out!

He won't start in Houston but him, Asik, and Lin could be a great second unit

Method28
02-24-2014, 06:58 PM
Clippers can offer him a starting job if he's in shape, no other team pursuing him can say that. I'm sure even at this stage he can't be worse than Barnes or Dudley. If we grab Granger/Davis... in replacement of Mullens/Jamison.. watch out!

Is it looking like he will get the buyout he wants? I'd love for the Clips to snatch him up.

Pacerlive
02-24-2014, 07:20 PM
Clippers can offer him a starting job if he's in shape, no other team pursuing him can say that. I'm sure even at this stage he can't be worse than Barnes or Dudley. If we grab Granger/Davis... in replacement of Mullens/Jamison.. watch out!
He could handle 24 mpg like Barnes but he needs to get his 3 point shot back soon. His defense is also a bit better than people probably remember and I am guessing you guys saw that Indy Clips game where he didn't allow Blake to back him down.

SPURSFAN1
02-24-2014, 07:24 PM
Clippers can offer him a starting job if he's in shape, no other team pursuing him can say that. I'm sure even at this stage he can't be worse than Barnes or Dudley. If we grab Granger/Davis... in replacement of Mullens/Jamison.. watch out!

He's looking at this year as a win-now-year. Does he think clips are a contender?

2-ONE-5
02-24-2014, 09:37 PM
stay Danny we need you!


hahahaha

Dade County
02-24-2014, 09:43 PM
He's looking at this year as a win-now-year. Does he think clips are a contender?

Why are you starting stuff with him :laugh2:

NBA_Starter
02-24-2014, 10:26 PM
He should sign with the Heat.

Slug3
02-24-2014, 10:53 PM
He's looking at this year as a win-now-year. Does he think clips are a contender?

This is a true statement. Spurs, heat, OKC and Indy are the top 4 and he should sign with one of them. Which really makes 3 as he can't sign with Indy.

Minimal
02-25-2014, 03:17 PM
http://www.sportsworldnews.com/articles/9863/20140225/miami-heat-players-dont-want-danny-granger-remember-him-screaming-in-lebrons-face-during-2012-playoff-series-video.htm

It makes sense

Slug3
02-26-2014, 09:59 PM
No real link source, but on the Dan LeBatard show he stated Phily offered the Heat Evan Turner for UD and picks or a pick and Riley declined as he didn't want to mess up the chemistry on the team.