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View Full Version : Raptors in talks for Rondo/Teague, Sac and Knicks also involved



spreadeagle
02-18-2014, 01:00 AM
The Raptors and Kings are reportedly interested in Rajon Rondo.
According to Yahoo! Sports, the Kings and Celtics discussed a deal involving Isaiah Thomas, Ben McLemore and a pick for Rondo, but Rondo wasn't interested in re-signing with Sacramento and the Kings strongly value McLemore. As for the Raptors, they are believed to be working a three-way trade with the Knicks involving Kyle Lowry. The price of Rondo is believed to be two unprotected first-round picks, which seems pretty steep in the buyer's market before the deadline.




The New York Knicks are attempting to resume trade talks with the Toronto Raptors on Kyle Lowry, according to sources.

The Knicks are offering packages including Iman Shumpert, Raymond Felton and Beno Udrih, sources say.

New York is reluctant to include Tim Hardaway Jr. or a future first round pick. The Raptors almost certainly will require one of those two assets to trade Lowry directly to the Knicks.

"It comes down to, can they talk themselves into getting rid of a first-rounder or Hardaway Jr. for Lowry," one league source said.

League sources say a three-team deal has also been discussed in which Jeff Teague would end up with the Raptors, while Shumpert gets routed to the Atlanta Hawks and Lowry to the Knicks. Another trade scenario has the Knicks acquiring Teague. Those conversations have only been preliminary. http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/53998/sources-knicks-still-pursuing-lowry?src=mobile
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1272

spreadeagle
02-18-2014, 01:03 AM
Trade talk heating up finally

todu82
02-18-2014, 01:05 AM
If Toronto got Rondo it'd be a good pick up for them and might firmly entrench them as the #3 seed in the East.

spreadeagle
02-18-2014, 01:10 AM
To bad Rondo doesnt want to go to Kings, Rondo Gay and Cousins would be sick

KniCks4LiFe
02-18-2014, 01:13 AM
speculation thread?

P&GRealist
02-18-2014, 01:15 AM
Trade talk heating up finally

Lol, you know these talks end up going nowhere 95% of the times.

Jays Claw
02-18-2014, 01:17 AM
Whoa...

I know this is pure speculation at the moment... but if Ujiri can pull this off then DAMN!

torontosports10
02-18-2014, 01:18 AM
The Knicks are offering packages including Iman Shumpert, Raymond Felton and Beno Udrih, sources say. New York is reluctant to include Tim Hardaway Jr. or a future first round pick.

I literally laughed out loud. Do they really think we are just going to ****ing give him away for their garbage?
And I have no interest in giving two unprotected 1st round picks for Rondo. I'll take my chances with Lowry this year, and know that the FA market isn't that great for him, and hope to re-sign him. If not, I look at moving up and drafting Tyler Ennis.

P&GRealist
02-18-2014, 01:19 AM
Whoa...

I know this is pure speculation at the moment... but if Ujiri can pull this off then DAMN!
I bet you he won't.

spreadeagle
02-18-2014, 01:20 AM
Lol, you know these talks end up going nowhere 95% of the times.

The fact that all this new Lowry trade has come makes me believe Toronto does not think they can resign him, and Masai said today that anyone on the roster could be traded. I expect one of these to happen

0nekhmer
02-18-2014, 02:27 AM
Nah I don't think either masai or ainge will budge. Both teams are far from desperation. Now the Knicks or Sacramento are teams that you wanna take advantage of. I really like lowry and how much he's matured as a raptor. But you never know of he'd bolt next season, and that might be enough for masai to pull the trigger on Lowry + pick for rondo

Kashmir13579
02-18-2014, 02:35 AM
Kings are lucky Rondo didn't want to play there, they were about to get raped in that trade.

Kashmir13579
02-18-2014, 02:36 AM
I literally laughed out loud. Do they really think we are just going to ****ing give him away for their garbage?
And I have no interest in giving two unprotected 1st round picks for Rondo. I'll take my chances with Lowry this year, and know that the FA market isn't that great for him, and hope to re-sign him. If not, I look at moving up and drafting Tyler Ennis.

lol Knicks... That can't be a real offer.

Shammyguy3
02-18-2014, 02:41 AM
Kings are lucky Rondo didn't want to play there, they were about to get raped in that trade.

My thoughts exactly

KingPosey
02-18-2014, 02:44 AM
My Kings have been linked to chasing Rondo for a while now, I just don't want him.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:08 AM
If the Raptors give up 2 firsts for rondo i'll be pissed (I don't believe this rumour at all because Ujiri said he wouldn't trade away our future)..Also, if Knicks want Lowry they better include a package of Hardaway jr and a 2018 1st or they can go **** themselves.

KniCks4LiFe
02-18-2014, 03:11 AM
Kings are lucky Rondo didn't want to play there, they were about to get raped in that trade.

anal-ly

lol Knicks... That can't be a real offer.

I think Mills is prank calling them drunk or something. :laugh2:

Mills: trade us Rrrr-ondo

Ainge: give me an offer I can't refuse

Mills: Imannn Shumperrrr and Amuuri *giggles* I thowin Felton too. We gotta a dea---eal?

[calls TOR]

Mills: trade us L-oorri

Ujiri: hey wassup, how bout Tim Jr.

Mills: Nah! Imannn Shumperrrr, Amuuri *giggles* I thowin Felton too. We gotta a dea---eal?

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 03:30 AM
If the Raptors give up 2 firsts for rondo i'll be pissed (I don't believe this rumour at all because Ujiri said he wouldn't trade away our future)..Also, if Knicks want Lowry they better include a package of Hardaway jr and a 2018 1st or they can go **** themselves.

Lol no chance. He's a FA at the end of the year. You can have the pick that's it

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:37 AM
Lol no chance. He's a FA at the end of the year. You can have the pick that's it

Ujiri's gonna work you guys he can smell your desperation all the way up in Toronto. It's just a matter of time before you guys throw us an offer of Hardaway jr, Shumpert, 12 firsts and the lease to MSG.

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 03:38 AM
Ujiri's gonna work you guys he can smell your desperation all the way up in Toronto. It's just a matter of time before you guys throw us an offer of Hardaway jr, Shumpert, 12 firsts and the lease to MSG.


No chance THJR is in it

randyorton33
02-18-2014, 03:40 AM
Oh man if Ujiri gets Rondo!!! T.Dot will be on fire.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:42 AM
No chance THJR is in it

It depends how much you guys like keeping Anthony doesn't it?

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:43 AM
Oh man if Ujiri gets Rondo!!! T.Dot will be on fire.

He won't give them anything near what they're asking unless he can screw the knicks in the Lowry trade and send those piece to Boston.

Cal827
02-18-2014, 03:43 AM
No chance THJR is in it

:laugh: The only objection to the previous suggestion.

I think the only way the Knicks get Lowry is through a 3 team trade. If they aren't willing to drop the unprotected 2018 pick and Hardaway Jr., then they have pretty much nothing that we would want.

We might as well try and still make a playoff push, which getting Teague would still keep us in.

Teague + 2018 NYK First + ATL pick or one of the years where they can swap with the nets probably is what Ujiri is looking to get

And, knowing the position of the Raps right now.... No way in hell I want to drop 2 unprotected picks. If we do, then Boston might have 3 picks in the top 5 next year :laugh:

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:53 AM
:laugh: The only objection to the previous suggestion.

I think the only way the Knicks get Lowry is through a 3 team trade. If they aren't willing to drop the unprotected 2018 pick and Hardaway Jr., then they have pretty much nothing that we would want.

We might as well try and still make a playoff push, which getting Teague would still keep us in.

Teague + 2018 NYK First + ATL pick or one of the years where they can swap with the nets probably is what Ujiri is looking to get

And, knowing the position of the Raps right now.... No way in hell I want to drop 2 unprotected picks. If we do, then Boston might have 3 picks in the top 5 next year :laugh:

I doubt we get two firsts + Teague but I do like that trade because even if Teague isn't very good for us we can still trade him to the knicks next year after Lowry leaves for like 6 firsts and Dolan's balls in a glass jar which Ujiri can use as an ornament for his desk.

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 04:11 AM
:laugh: The only objection to the previous suggestion.

I think the only way the Knicks get Lowry is through a 3 team trade. If they aren't willing to drop the unprotected 2018 pick and Hardaway Jr., then they have pretty much nothing that we would want.

We might as well try and still make a playoff push, which getting Teague would still keep us in.

Teague + 2018 NYK First + ATL pick or one of the years where they can swap with the nets probably is what Ujiri is looking to get

And, knowing the position of the Raps right now.... No way in hell I want to drop 2 unprotected picks. If we do, then Boston might have 3 picks in the top 5 next year :laugh:


That's more likely. You won't get a pick from the hawks IMO but you could most definitely get a pick from NY. And hey what happened to wanting me apart of the deal? Jerk :(

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 04:12 AM
I doubt we get two firsts + Teague but I do like that trade because even if Teague isn't very good for us we can still trade him to the knicks next year after Lowry leaves for like 6 firsts and Dolan's balls in a glass jar which Ujiri can use as an ornament for his desk.


Lol I hope we wouldn't overpay for Lowry. But more then likely he will get a Teague like contact

Cracka2HI!
02-18-2014, 04:17 AM
I think Toronto should be buyers. I'm not sure Rondo is the right guy. Lowry is their 2nd best player. They don't need to upgrade at PG. I think they should look to add Boozer or maybe Thad Young.

Chronz
02-18-2014, 04:22 AM
I think Toronto should be buyers. I'm not sure Rondo is the right guy. Lowry is their 2nd best player. They don't need to upgrade at PG. I think they should look to add Boozer or maybe Thad Young.
Lowry has been their best player. PPG isnt all that matters bro

FriedTofuz
02-18-2014, 05:25 AM
The knicks are actually a joke in all of sports. You're telling me, after Lowrys breakthrough, they're still offering the same package and not giving up tim hardaway/ a pick? Are you kidding me?

And secondly, Dolan is a huge liar " we're not trading anyone" Lol.

Yeah I dont understand the NY front office, if they honestly think they can get lowry after he's skyrocketted his trade value, they're sadly mistaken.

Master Mind
02-18-2014, 05:29 AM
Wish the Heat would hold the Knicks hostage with a butter knife for Hardaway. The kid has Heat in his blood :D

kobe4thewinbang
02-18-2014, 05:34 AM
It is funny looking at the meager packages NY is trying to offer teams. If I'm Danny Ainge, I *might* give up Rondo for 2 first round picks, but Rondo is still a good player (not great) and those picks might not pay off. It is unfortunate that Sacramento is such a mess outside of Cousins.

aLau10
02-18-2014, 01:42 PM
Rondo to replace Lowry isn't really the best thing on the market, Lowry is playing the ball of his life and is probably the best player on the squad. Doubt Uijiri gives enough to get Rondo where it also doesn't **** us.
As for the Knicks... they better package a first or Hardaway JR.

I actually wouldn't mind having either Rondo or Teague on this squad in replacement of Lowry, as long as we don't lose too much for Rondo, or we can get more with Teague.

Beltrans Mole
02-18-2014, 01:47 PM
Rondo to replace Lowry isn't really the best thing on the market, Lowry is playing the ball of his life and is probably the best player on the squad. Doubt Uijiri gives enough to get Rondo where it also doesn't **** us.
As for the Knicks... they better package a first or Hardaway JR.

I actually wouldn't mind having either Rondo or Teague on this squad in replacement of Lowry, as long as we don't lose too much for Rondo, or we can get more with Teague.

Good luck getting that for a rental of Lowry LOL

BHF
02-18-2014, 01:50 PM
I think Toronto should be buyers. I'm not sure Rondo is the right guy. Lowry is their 2nd best player. They don't need to upgrade at PG. I think they should look to add Boozer or maybe Thad Young.

Lowry is Toronto's best player.

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 01:53 PM
Rondo to replace Lowry isn't really the best thing on the market, Lowry is playing the ball of his life and is probably the best player on the squad. Doubt Uijiri gives enough to get Rondo where it also doesn't **** us.
As for the Knicks... they better package a first or Hardaway JR.

I actually wouldn't mind having either Rondo or Teague on this squad in replacement of Lowry, as long as we don't lose too much for Rondo, or we can get more with Teague.


Lol it would be the dumbest thing in the world if you got rondo for two unprotected firsts

Sly Guy
02-18-2014, 01:54 PM
the only reason why Toronto pulls the trigger on a deal like this is because they're sure they can't resign Lowry. It makes me curious to find out who's making the calls inquiring about whom in all this.

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 01:56 PM
The knicks are actually a joke in all of sports. You're telling me, after Lowrys breakthrough, they're still offering the same package and not giving up tim hardaway/ a pick? Are you kidding me?

And secondly, Dolan is a huge liar " we're not trading anyone" Lol.

Yeah I dont understand the NY front office, if they honestly think they can get lowry after he's skyrocketted his trade value, they're sadly mistaken.


Well clearly something has been talked about as there in discussions for the 3 team deal. Dolan's a liar? So lol who the **** cares, you sound like a whinny *****. Lowry might not even get traded but you think his value skyrocketed for a 3 month rental meh I don't think so. You think your going to get shumpert an Tim Hardaway Jr and I bet you want a pick too :laugh2:

flea
02-18-2014, 02:00 PM
This sounds like BS. Why would Atlanta trade Teague period, much less for Shumpert? They just paid to keep him around, and it's obvious Schroeder isn't ready. Plus, Teague has top 5 PG ability (obviously I'm not saying he's there). I think coach Bud and the Hawks see some of Parker in his ability to get where he wants to on the floor.

KnickaBocka.44
02-18-2014, 02:01 PM
The knicks are actually a joke in all of sports. You're telling me, after Lowrys breakthrough, they're still offering the same package and not giving up tim hardaway/ a pick? Are you kidding me?

And secondly, Dolan is a huge liar " we're not trading anyone" Lol.

Yeah I dont understand the NY front office, if they honestly think they can get lowry after he's skyrocketted his trade value, they're sadly mistaken.

Your perception of value is way off if you think a 3 month rental has much value.

John Walls Era
02-18-2014, 02:02 PM
I havent watched Knicks much, but is Hardaway really that good? IIRC they use to be high on Landry Fields and Shumpert too.

John Walls Era
02-18-2014, 02:03 PM
Your perception of value is way off if you think a 3 month rental has much value.

I would assume that they would want Lowry to extend his contract. If Lowry declines then thats when he becomes a 3 month rental. I see no reason why LOwry wouldn't test the market though.

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 02:04 PM
I havent watched Knicks much, but is Hardaway really that good? IIRC they use to be high on Landry Fields and Shumpert too.

Hardaway has a jumpshot, and has shown flashes of being a star. He is way better then fields

Walt
02-18-2014, 02:06 PM
Knicks need to trade Shumpert and others to get Rondo, then start THJ. THJ is by far a better player than Shumpert who was one of the most overhyped players in recent memory.

Rondo / Hardaway Jr. / Melo / (insert a PF possibly by trade or FA) / Chandler


That team would be the 3rd best team in the East.

KnickaBocka.44
02-18-2014, 02:07 PM
I would assume that they would want Lowry to extend his contract. If Lowry declines then thats when he becomes a 3 month rental. I see no reason why LOwry wouldn't test the market though.

As it stands now though, he is a FA after the season, you don't get good value in that situation. Especially if everyone knows he's leaving TOR regardless.

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 02:12 PM
Knicks need to trade Shumpert and others to get Rondo, then start THJ. THJ is by far a better player than Shumpert who was one of the most overhyped players in recent memory.

Rondo / Hardaway Jr. / Melo / (insert a PF possibly by trade or FA) / Chandler



That team would be the 3rd best team in the East.

They want two picks the Knicks only have a 2018 and 2020 pick available for trade

Walt
02-18-2014, 02:12 PM
If I were Boston though, I would demand Hardaway Jr.

Walt
02-18-2014, 02:13 PM
They want two picks the Knicks only have a 2018 and 2020 pick available for trade

Yeah it was more of a "dream" scenario for New York. If you guys for some reason offered up THJ, Boston would be stupid to pass it, unless they get another offer they can't refuse.

Max.This
02-18-2014, 02:17 PM
give thjr a couple years and then we can gauge what type of player he will be. Hes got great potential, work ethic, but hes got to be a better defender.

blahblahyoutoo
02-18-2014, 02:18 PM
am i the only one that thinks lowry > teague > rondo?

nycericanguy
02-18-2014, 02:25 PM
give thjr a couple years and then we can gauge what type of player he will be. Hes got great potential, work ethic, but hes got to be a better defender.

very few players come into the league as two way players.

THJR will bulk up and he'll learn on D, he has shown the worth ethic to do so.

But offensive the talent is already there. He's a young Allan Houston to me... and Houston was a deadly player even though his D never was great. Not to mention he's locked up for almost nothing til 2019... he's pretty much untouchable.

moshy2
02-18-2014, 02:38 PM
Lowry's value won't be any higher. I don't think anybody will be willing to pay the price for a rental. The Knicks offer might not be half of what it'll take.

As someone said earlier, it would have been interesting to see Rondo in Sactown with Gay and Cousins. Boogie was breaking out, Rondo would have made him even better. The Kings were giving up too much in the trade in the OP though

Wade n Fade
02-18-2014, 02:40 PM
am i the only one that thinks lowry > teague > rondo?

Based off one season, no. But career wise? It goes Rondo > Teague > Lowry. I don't think Rondo will return to form entirely for awhile if he does. Those are huge question marks. To acquire Rondo for two firsts shows a lot of audacity.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 02:42 PM
am i the only one that thinks lowry > teague > rondo?

Lowry has the highest PER of the 3 and is the best "when he wants to be" so I doubt it.

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 02:45 PM
very few players come into the league as two way players.

THJR will bulk up and he'll learn on D, he has shown the worth ethic to do so.

But offensive the talent is already there. He's a young Allan Houston to me... and Houston was a deadly player even though his D never was great. Not to mention he's locked up for almost nothing til 2019... he's pretty much untouchable.

This is exactly what Knicks fans said about Shumpert though. They said he would learn to be better on the offensive end, and that he was untouchable. They also said he had the potential to be Dwyane Wade. :laugh2:

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 02:46 PM
Hardaway has a jumpshot, and has shown flashes of being a star. He is way better then fields

sounds like how you guys described Fields in his rookie year =O

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 02:49 PM
Lowry has the highest PER of the 3 and is the best "when he wants to be" so I doubt it.

That's not saying much when Rondo just came back from an ACL tear. He was bad in January, but he was just shaking off the rust, it was like pre-season for him. So far in February, he's been amazing.

nycericanguy
02-18-2014, 02:52 PM
This is exactly what Knicks fans said about Shumpert though. They said he would learn to be better on the offensive end, and that he was untouchable. They also said he had the potential to be Dwyane Wade. :laugh2:

If u wanna take the comments of a few knick fans and apply it to an entire fanbase then sure...

Shump is only 23, the potential is there to be a solid Battier/ Tony Allen with a jumpshot player.

But the knicks really can't win, if they trade a young player like Gallo & Chandler for Melo then they are being "fleeced"... if they wanna hold onto the young player because they like him then it's "ooo knicks fan overrate everyone... they said shump > wade!"... or something silly like that. most ppl on here just wanna troll vs actually discussing stuff.

young players are hit or miss... knicks have developed some good ones (gallo, Chandler, Lee, Lin...etc... and they've had some that have bombed like Fields & Toney Douglas... but that goes for every team really.

ghettosean
02-18-2014, 02:52 PM
The knicks are actually a joke in all of sports. You're telling me, after Lowrys breakthrough, they're still offering the same package and not giving up tim hardaway/ a pick? Are you kidding me?

And secondly, Dolan is a huge liar " we're not trading anyone" Lol.

Yeah I dont understand the NY front office, if they honestly think they can get lowry after he's skyrocketted his trade value, they're sadly mistaken.

LOL.... I forgot about that!

Yeah they are a bit dysfunctional... It's hard to trust an owner like that.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 02:54 PM
That's not saying much when Rondo just came back from an ACL tear. He was bad in January, but he was just shaking off the rust, it was like pre-season for him. So far in February, he's been amazing.

He's currently got a higher PER than any point in Rondo's career though and he never player with three hall of famers (including the Automatic Assist Ray Allen)

Max.This
02-18-2014, 02:58 PM
sounds like how you guys described Fields in his rookie year =O

Lol if you want to see the type of player hardaway jr is, youtube him.

ghettosean
02-18-2014, 03:01 PM
Your perception of value is way off if you think a 3 month rental has much value.

Why though? Basically there plan right now is to keep there superstar or try to convince him to stay... Having a terrible record and showing no improvement isn't really the way to go about it to be honest. Telling Melo "Sorry we can't do anything for a while" won't help there case much. Besides Felton would most likely be going in the deal anyway so Toronto would be taking on a bit of salary but Lowry is playing like an all star/MVP getting that type of player and winning some games and maybe winning a round in the playoffs might convince Melo to stick around don't you think?

Either way you need to give a little to get a little and the Knicks don't want to give anything. If that's the way it's going they will get nothing and then there's a good chance Melo will walk.

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 03:01 PM
He's currently got a higher PER than any point in Rondo's career though and he never player with three hall of famers (including the Automatic Assist Ray Allen)

This is a testament to Lowry's prime potential. Again, this is a contract year so it is kind of a moot point. If he plays like this again next year, then yes, he'll be worth every penny he gets.

Rondo is overrated because he can't shoot. other than that, we will see how he does without any stars on his team. Again, this is a bad way to rate Rondo because you need talent to win and be a better player in all cases.

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 03:03 PM
If u wanna take the comments of a few knick fans and apply it to an entire fanbase then sure...

Shump is only 23, the potential is there to be a solid Battier/ Tony Allen with a jumpshot player.

But the knicks really can't win, if they trade a young player like Gallo & Chandler for Melo then they are being "fleeced"... if they wanna hold onto the young player because they like him then it's "ooo knicks fan overrate everyone... they said shump > wade!"... or something silly like that. most ppl on here just wanna troll vs actually discussing stuff.

young players are hit or miss... knicks have developed some good ones (gallo, Chandler, Lee, Lin...etc... and they've had some that have bombed like Fields & Toney Douglas... but that goes for every team really.

It was not "a few" Knicks fans. Most Knicks fans overrate their players. Almost all of the proposed trades in the Knicks forum are laughable. It's probably just because they have a big fan base.


He's currently got a higher PER than any point in Rondo's career though and he never player with three hall of famers (including the Automatic Assist Ray Allen)

You can't judge how good a player is using one stat.

Mile High Champ
02-18-2014, 03:03 PM
Lowry is Toronto's best player.

As someone who has watched every Raptors game this season, I would go with DeRozan. Lowry has been huge, don't get me wrong but the Raps have gotten much better largely due to DeRozan taking his game to the next level. Mostly around his playmaking, defense and more efficient scoring. DeRozan is the Raps best player.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:06 PM
As someone who has watched every Raptors game this season, I would go with DeRozan. Lowry has been huge, don't get me wrong but the Raps have gotten much better largely due to DeRozan taking his game to the next level. Mostly around his playmaking, defense and more efficient scoring. DeRozan is the Raps best player.

No, No he isn't.

BoSox47
02-18-2014, 03:07 PM
Knicks need to trade Shumpert and others to get Rondo, then start THJ. THJ is by far a better player than Shumpert who was one of the most overhyped players in recent memory.

Rondo / Hardaway Jr. / Melo / (insert a PF possibly by trade or FA) / Chandler


That team would be the 3rd best team in the East.


The thing is no one really has interest in shumpert. He isnt good id trade at most 2 seond round picks for him right now. Any trade to acquire a rondo or lowry would have to start with THJR and at least one unprotected first round pick at bare minimum. Boston would be pretty much the only team interested in amare so that they could abosrb a huge contract that will be off the books for 2015.

To knicks:
Rondo
Wallace

To boston:
THJR
Amare
1 unprotected pick in 2018
and possibly another pick im not sure. the way sacremento was offering for rondo it looks liek it would at least have to be the ability to swap a different future pick. Especially now that Danny Ainge has in his head eh can get a isiah thomas/mclemore/2 unprotected. Knicks just cant offer a package like that right now

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 03:07 PM
This is a testament to Lowry's prime potential. Again, this is a contract year so it is kind of a moot point. If he plays like this again next year, then yes, he'll be worth every penny he gets.

Rondo is overrated because he can't shoot. other than that, we will see how he does without any stars on his team. Again, this is a bad way to rate Rondo because you need talent to win and be a better player in all cases.

So far in February, Rondo has shown that he can shoot and play without any stars. He's still getting a bunch of assists. He had plenty of time to work on his shot while he was injured, and it looks like it's improved a lot.

Mile High Champ
02-18-2014, 03:08 PM
No, No he isn't.

Yes, yes he is.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:08 PM
If Lowry is traded it will be to somewhere unexpected because that's how Ujiri works he uses team like the Knicks to up his player value by creating a demand and then trades them elsewhere.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:11 PM
Yes, yes he is.

Derozan can hardly hit 3's and his D is awful..Lowry is way better than him it's not even close. Derozan got injured for a bit and the Raptors didn't slow down at all Lowry still won the games like he didn't even matter.

Mile High Champ
02-18-2014, 03:14 PM
If Lowry is traded it will be to somewhere unexpected because that's how Ujiri works he uses team like the Knicks to up his player value by creating a demand and then trades them elsewhere.

How would you know this?

Cal827
02-18-2014, 03:18 PM
That's more likely. You won't get a pick from the hawks IMO but you could most definitely get a pick from NY. And hey what happened to wanting me apart of the deal? Jerk :(


I've come to the conclusion that even James Dolan is smart enough not to deal someone of your value away... at least this year :D

Your inclusion in deals will be further discussed when you come after our PG next year lol

ghettosean
02-18-2014, 03:21 PM
No, No he isn't.


Yes, yes he is.

:catfight:

Lovers quarrel :D

Mile High Champ
02-18-2014, 03:22 PM
Derozan can hardly hit 3's and his D is awful..Lowry is way better than him it's not even close. Derozan got injured for a bit and the Raptors didn't slow down at all Lowry still won the games like he didn't even matter.

His three point percentage is respectable. Not great, but he still a threat from out there. Also his mid range game has become an incredible asset as it has developed into one of the best parts of his game. He is now reliable and dangerous inside 20 feet. Something you could not have said last season. He is a much better play maker as well as his numbers have taken a huge increase from his career average (2.0 to 3.8). His rebounding numbers are also at a career high at close to 5 per game. He no longer is a one dimensional scorer/ player.

How could you say he is awful on D? Please pay close attention to tonight's game as you are missing this clearly. Right now, DeRozan sits 37th in the league in terms of points allowed per possession (PPP). DeRozan is only yielding .76 PPP. He is amongst the leagues best at defending the pick and roll and has improved tremendously as a spot up defender. He also sits as the best defender in the NBA in defending isolation plays, yielding only .36 PPP. His defense has been easily the biggest improvement in his game as he is approaching lock down territory. He is not there yet but he could easily get there with his athleticism.

Cal827
02-18-2014, 03:24 PM
:laugh: Watch New York for some reason, acquire all of the point guards for picks up to 2028

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 03:28 PM
Lol if you want to see the type of player hardaway jr is, youtube him.

LOL youtube. any player can be made a god on youtube. ANY PLAYER.

blahblahyoutoo
02-18-2014, 03:30 PM
This is exactly what Knicks fans said about Shumpert though. They said he would learn to be better on the offensive end, and that he was untouchable. They also said he had the potential to be Dwyane Wade. :laugh2:

i remember that :D

blahblahyoutoo
02-18-2014, 03:31 PM
sounds like how you guys described Fields in his rookie year =O

i remember that too :D:D:D

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:32 PM
How would you know this?

because he told me

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:40 PM
His three point percentage is respectable. Not great, but he still a threat from out there. Also his mid range game has become an incredible asset as it has developed into one of the best parts of his game. He is now reliable and dangerous inside 20 feet. Something you could not have said last season. He is a much better play maker as well as his numbers have taken a huge increase from his career average (2.0 to 3.8). His rebounding numbers are also at a career high at close to 5 per game. He no longer is a one dimensional scorer/ player.

How could you say he is awful on D? Please pay close attention to tonight's game as you are missing this clearly. Right now, DeRozan sits 37th in the league in terms of points allowed per possession (PPP). DeRozan is only yielding .76 PPP. He is amongst the leagues best at defending the pick and roll and has improved tremendously as a spot up defender. He also sits as the best defender in the NBA in defending isolation plays, yielding only .36 PPP. His defense has been easily the biggest improvement in his game as he is approaching lock down territory. He is not there yet but he could easily get there with his athleticism.

I have trouble watching teams that I know are gonna be blown up in the off season . Honestly, I'll probably be watching Kansas instead tonight or maybe Bennett because he's trying to turn around his career.

bartron_44
02-18-2014, 03:46 PM
I don't think Rondo is worth Lowry + our first round pick. Rondo only has one more year on his contract, and is coming off ACL surgery. I think trading Lowry for Teague or Rondo actually makes our team worse this season...and doesn't make any sense at all. We need to keep our draft pick and Kyle Lowry.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 03:49 PM
I don't think Rondo is worth Lowry + our first round pick. Rondo only has one more year on his contract, and is coming off ACL surgery. I think trading Lowry for Teague or Rondo actually makes our team worse this season...and doesn't make any sense at all. We need to keep our draft pick and Kyle Lowry.

Boston doesn't want Lowry...They're tanking this year it's pretty obvious....I would love to be Boston's position right now they got a good future.

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 03:49 PM
I've come to the conclusion that even James Dolan is smart enough not to deal someone of your value away... at least this year :D

Your inclusion in deals will be further discussed when you come after our PG next year lol

:laugh2:

Jamiecballer
02-18-2014, 03:55 PM
am i the only one that thinks lowry > teague > rondo?

if healthy and motivated - i would agree

Mile High Champ
02-18-2014, 03:56 PM
I have trouble watching teams that I know are gonna be blown up in the off season . Honestly, I'll probably be watching Kansas instead tonight or maybe Bennett because he's trying to turn around his career.

Ok, but you are changing the subject. I am glad you admit you are wrong about DeRozan I guess.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 04:03 PM
Ok, but you are changing the subject. I am glad you admit you are wrong about DeRozan I guess.

i'm not admitting it at all he's bad i've watched him enough this season...All you have to do is compare him on D to a guy like Ross and you'll realize how bad he actually is.

KnicksorBust
02-18-2014, 04:04 PM
I DONT WANT TEAGUE.

I think we already blew our best shot at Lowry and we have cost ourselves so many games in the meantime. Not worth it now.

Rondo would be a good long term investment so that is the only deal worth pursuing but I dont think we have the chips for it.

Imo Knicks are out on all 3 players.

smith&wesson
02-18-2014, 04:10 PM
because he told me

:laugh: you keep saying this

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 04:29 PM
if healthy and motivated - i would agree

Lol no way is Lowry>rondo

Shammyguy3
02-18-2014, 04:32 PM
Lowry's a better defender, an equal rebounder, a much better scorer, is a good playmaker, and is far more efficient. I would take Lowry over Rondo without hesitation

NBAfan3532
02-18-2014, 04:39 PM
Well Lowry is on a contract year

Jamiecballer
02-18-2014, 04:41 PM
Lol no way is Lowry>rondo

he's never had a season as impressive as the one Lowry is having this year. but if you're argument is going to be based entirely on simple counting stats let's not even bother.

BHF
02-18-2014, 04:44 PM
As someone who has watched every Raptors game this season, I would go with DeRozan. Lowry has been huge, don't get me wrong but the Raps have gotten much better largely due to DeRozan taking his game to the next level. Mostly around his playmaking, defense and more efficient scoring. DeRozan is the Raps best player.

Raps without Lowry would be one of the worst teams in the league and Raps without DD would be okay. AS someone who has not missed a raps game in 3 season i would say its not even close its its pretty obvious that Lowry is the better player. DD is okay when he doesn't take dumb mid range jump shots but his one on one defense is not bad but horrible. That for me is the main reason i would go with Lowry over DD.

joshhorvath
02-18-2014, 04:49 PM
Raps without Lowry would be one of the worst teams in the league and Raps without DD would be okay. AS someone who has not missed a raps game in 3 season i would say its not even close its its pretty obvious that Lowry is the better player. DD is okay when he doesn't take dumb mid range jump shots but his one on one defense is not bad but horrible. That for me is the main reason i would go with Lowry over DD.


his mid range jumper has become one of his most consistent scoring plays. along with him driving to the basket... but his D? calling it horrible? my friend, you clearly underestimate derozan, and clearly missed Mile High Champs post last page when TorontoHuskies tried to call DD out on the same thing you are.

joshhorvath
02-18-2014, 04:51 PM
and also pretty sure without his 'dumb mid range jumpers' he wouldnt be an all-star, or his horrible D.. but ill see ya on the threads tonight praising him when he's carrying our team... simple fair weather fan..

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 04:51 PM
Lowry's a better defender, an equal rebounder, a much better scorer, is a good playmaker, and is far more efficient. I would take Lowry over Rondo without hesitation

Please, show something that proves this.

Nycbball08
02-18-2014, 05:04 PM
I literally laughed out loud. Do they really think we are just going to ****ing give him away for their garbage?
And I have no interest in giving two unprotected 1st round picks for Rondo. I'll take my chances with Lowry this year, and know that the FA market isn't that great for him, and hope to re-sign him. If not, I look at moving up and drafting Tyler Ennis.

You sound as if you're the damn GM

BoSox47
02-18-2014, 05:06 PM
Lowry's a better defender, an equal rebounder, a much better scorer, is a good playmaker, and is far more efficient. I would take Lowry over Rondo without hesitation

How is lowry a better defender or rebounder? rondo has almost a whole rebound per game higher then lowry over his career then lowry does. Rondo is also one of the better defending pgs in the league at least pre injury.

I would even better scorer is a reach. Yes lowry has had a good year this year but he is also a 4.19 career shooter. Though the past few years he has improved his 3 point shot.

If lowry can continue to play like this then yes he might become a better scorer and have a more efficient shot but i would hardly say a guy who is a career .419 shooter is a much better scorer. He also is no where near the passer/playmaker/rebounder that rondo is.

Lowrys defense is decent but before rondos injury(his defense post injury has yet to be determined) rondo was easily the better defender.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 05:07 PM
:laugh: you keep saying this

Ujiri's got me on speed dial he runs everything by me before he makes a move

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 05:12 PM
his mid range jumper has become one of his most consistent scoring plays. along with him driving to the basket... but his D? calling it horrible? my friend, you clearly underestimate derozan, and clearly missed Mile High Champs post last page when TorontoHuskies tried to call DD out on the same thing you are.

Yea but Mile High Champs wasn't right...DD isn't a good defender...Lowry, Ross, and Salmons are good defenders, derozan is nowhere near this level.

flea
02-18-2014, 05:15 PM
Yea but Mile High Champs wasn't right...DD isn't a good defender...Lowry, Ross, and Salmons are good defenders, derozan is nowhere near this level.

Hey if you just keep on asserting it then it's bound to become true, right?

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 05:17 PM
How is lowry a better defender or rebounder? rondo has almost a whole rebound per game higher then lowry over his career then lowry does. Rondo is also one of the better defending pgs in the league at least pre injury.

per 36, they would average around the same amount of rebounds. advanced stats also show they are very similar in rebounding as well in terms of %s of rebounds they get while they are on the floor.

Rondo has played a lot more minutes than Lowry, career wise, hence, Rondo would average more rebounds career wise.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 05:18 PM
How is lowry a better defender or rebounder? rondo has almost a whole rebound per game higher then lowry over his career then lowry does. Rondo is also one of the better defending pgs in the league at least pre injury.

I would even better scorer is a reach. Yes lowry has had a good year this year but he is also a 4.19 career shooter. Though the past few years he has improved his 3 point shot.

If lowry can continue to play like this then yes he might become a better scorer and have a more efficient shot but i would hardly say a guy who is a career .419 shooter is a much better scorer. He also is no where near the passer/playmaker/rebounder that rondo is.

Lowrys defense is decent but before rondos injury(his defense post injury has yet to be determined) rondo was easily the better defender.

i'd say Rondo is a better defender (which says a ton because Lowry is amazing), passer and rebounder but Lowry is overall better because Lowry is still well above average in all those categories plus he is a much better shooter than Rondo and also has the ability to take over a game.

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 05:25 PM
per 36, they would average around the same amount of rebounds. advanced stats also show they are very similar in rebounding as well in terms of %s of rebounds they get while they are on the floor.

Rondo has played a lot more minutes than Lowry, career wise, hence, Rondo would average more rebounds career wise.

How about career TRB%? Rondo's is 9.8%, while Lowry's is 7.0%.

Jamiecballer
02-18-2014, 05:31 PM
How about career TRB%? Rondo's is 9.8%, while Lowry's is 7.0%.

you made that up. it's Rondo 8.3%, Lowry 7.6%.

smith&wesson
02-18-2014, 05:36 PM
Ujiri's got me on speed dial he runs everything by me before he makes a move

drake ? is that you ? :p

Shammyguy3
02-18-2014, 05:39 PM
Please, show something that proves this.

I don't have the defensive stats at hand, but last I recall Rondo was mediocre in opponents PPP, also from the fraction of games I have watched him play the last few years he's really become a boom/bust defender because he gambles too much. If anyone has synergy and would like to share what Lowry's and Rondo's defensive metrics were the past couple years (and Lowry's this year) that'd be great


How is lowry a better defender or rebounder? rondo has almost a whole rebound per game higher then lowry over his career then lowry does. Rondo is also one of the better defending pgs in the league at least pre injury.

I would even better scorer is a reach. Yes lowry has had a good year this year but he is also a 4.19 career shooter. Though the past few years he has improved his 3 point shot.

If lowry can continue to play like this then yes he might become a better scorer and have a more efficient shot but i would hardly say a guy who is a career .419 shooter is a much better scorer. He also is no where near the passer/playmaker/rebounder that rondo is.

Lowrys defense is decent but before rondos injury(his defense post injury has yet to be determined) rondo was easily the better defender.

Just posted above that I don't have their defensive metrics off-hand but recalling memory Lowry's are superior to Rondo's. And I said Lowry/Rondo are equal rebounders.
Rondo's career trb% is 8.3% and Lowry's is 7.6%.
Rondo's trb% the past three years (2011, '12, '13 season) is 7.8%
Lowry's trb% the past three years and this season is 7.8%

And the reason why Lowry is a far superior scorer to Rondo is the following
Lowry's posted a 55.6ts% 50.2efg% 114 ORtg 18.0 PER and 0.154 WS/48 on a 20.2usg% over that same time frame. (242 games)
In comparison Rondo's posted a 49.7ts% 47.7efg% 103 ORtg 17.5 PER and 0.120 WS/48 from 2011-2013 on a 19.9usg% (159 games)


How about career TRB%? Rondo's is 9.8%, while Lowry's is 7.0%.

You read that wrong. Those are their rates for this season
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lowryky01.html

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 05:41 PM
you made that up. it's Rondo 8.3%, Lowry 7.6%.


How about career TRB%? Rondo's is 9.8%, while Lowry's is 7.0%.

Rondo's difference is the offensive rebounding. he can't shoot. defensive rebounding is the same if anything. Lowry will shoot more because he's got a three point shot. Its where they will be when someone puts up a shot. Its not exact science but here I go: Lowry will be be awaiting the pass- ready to shoot, while Rondo is ready to go in after he passes the ball or looking for the rebound after he lets go of the ball.

I think their abilities to shoot the ball has a direct correlation to how many rebounds they get on the offensive end, IMO.

KniCks4LiFe
02-18-2014, 05:44 PM
Ujiri's got me on speed dial he runs everything by me before he makes a move

Do you cry and reminisce about your ex. when you listen to music?

Does street hip hop not inspire you?

How many times a week do you get a shape up?

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 05:45 PM
Raptors want Manimal now ...

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 05:46 PM
Raptors want Manimal now ...

do you think we could get Jordan Hill for cheaper?

Legitimate
02-18-2014, 05:46 PM
I wouldn't even take raymond felton if it was for free, so why would we trade lowry for him? lol.

KniCks4LiFe
02-18-2014, 05:49 PM
I wouldn't even take raymond felton if it was for free, so why would we trade lowry for him? lol.

lies! Raymond is actually a good mime the way he looks at his right hand when he misses tear drops, people pay good money for those mimes in NYC. I'd bet Canada has never seen something like that.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 05:50 PM
Raptors have no interest in Rondo they are just driving up the price for the Knicks so they can't get Rondo and are forced to settle for Lowry by giving Ujiri what he wants Tim Hardaway udrih and a 1st.

KniCks4LiFe
02-18-2014, 05:54 PM
Raptors have no interest in Rondo they are just driving up the price for the Knicks so they can't get Rondo and are forced to settle for Lowry by giving Ujiri what he wants Tim Hardaway udrih and a 1st.

Then you don't know my Knicks very well. You can always drive up the price w/ just talking w/ our city rivals. Don't even have to trade. It can just be a convo. about "how you doing" "I'm good" next thing you know it's Lowry to the Nets? and then Dolan sells the house.

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 05:54 PM
you made that up. it's Rondo 8.3%, Lowry 7.6%.

I didn't make that up, I used their 2013-2014 TRB% on accident. Chill.


I don't have the defensive stats at hand, but last I recall Rondo was mediocre in opponents PPP, also from the fraction of games I have watched him play the last few years he's really become a boom/bust defender because he gambles too much. If anyone has synergy and would like to share what Lowry's and Rondo's defensive metrics were the past couple years (and Lowry's this year) that'd be great.

I don't have any good defensive stats either. Rondo has a better career STL%, while Lowry has a better career BLK%. Rondo has a better career DRtg, but I don't trust/like that stat. Rondo has a lot more DWS, but has played 2349 more minutes. But, even with those extra minutes, Lowry would still be very far off.


You read that wrong. Those are their rates for this season
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lowryky01.html

Yeah, my bad.

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 05:55 PM
lies! Raymond is actually a good mime the way he looks at his right hand when he misses tear drops, people pay good money for those mimes in NYC. I'd bet Canada has never seen something like that.

his name is Rob Ford. but he chooses to speak

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 05:57 PM
Raptors have no interest in Rondo they are just driving up the price for the Knicks so they can't get Rondo and are forced to settle for Lowry by giving Ujiri what he wants Tim Hardaway udrih and a 1st.

thats a good take on it. It doesn't make sense to get Rondo for this team. I bet you they are doing just that, raising the bar for NY that they'll Lowry instead. lol If MU is ****ing around with this - its brilliant.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 05:58 PM
Yea that what i'm saying the knicks are gonna have to give up shump, hardaway and a 1st if they want us to take back that garbage.

KniCks4LiFe
02-18-2014, 05:58 PM
his name is Rob Ford. but he chooses to speak

Raymond doesn't need to speak, he entertains you by dribbling and cracking his own ankles.

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 06:05 PM
Raymond doesn't need to speak, he entertains you by dribbling and cracking his own ankles.

No need for cracking ankles when Rob Ford does crack.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 06:09 PM
do you think we could get Jordan Hill for cheaper?

yea because he's older and not as good. I think Farried would cost us Ross and if we're going to give him up we might as well go after someone like Tristan Thompson who is only 22 and already the best offensive rebounding PF in the NBA (also he's from Toronto so we'd probably be able to resign him at a discount).

blahblahyoutoo
02-18-2014, 06:13 PM
How is lowry a better defender or rebounder? rondo has almost a whole rebound per game higher then lowry over his career then lowry does. Rondo is also one of the better defending pgs in the league at least pre injury.

I would even better scorer is a reach. Yes lowry has had a good year this year but he is also a 4.19 career shooter. Though the past few years he has improved his 3 point shot.

If lowry can continue to play like this then yes he might become a better scorer and have a more efficient shot but i would hardly say a guy who is a career .419 shooter is a much better scorer. He also is no where near the passer/playmaker/rebounder that rondo is.

Lowrys defense is decent but before rondos injury(his defense post injury has yet to be determined) rondo was easily the better defender.

ronda pads stats.

Shammyguy3
02-18-2014, 06:22 PM
I don't have any good defensive stats either. Rondo has a better career STL%, while Lowry has a better career BLK%. Rondo has a better career DRtg, but I don't trust/like that stat. Rondo has a lot more DWS, but has played 2349 more minutes. But, even with those extra minutes, Lowry would still be very far off.

Can't use DRtg to compare guys on different teams and/or different years. It's related to the defense the team has that year. That's why Boozer's DRtg with the Bulls is 98 in 250 games. Would you take his rating over a guy like Marc Gasol who's had a career 103 DRtg?

DWS is also meh

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 06:25 PM
yea because he's older and not as good. I think Farried would cost us Ross and if we're going to give him up we might as well go after someone like Tristan Thompson who is only 22 and already the best offensive rebounding PF in the NBA (also he's from Toronto so we'd probably be able to resign him at a discount).

Jordan Hill is only 26 though. 2 years old than Faried. Fits the bill but these players are more suited for the bench. they don't yet provide any consistency upfront to be warranted as starters. Amir Johnson with more energy essentially.

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 06:25 PM
Rondo has gone from being massively overrated,to being massively underrated.Lowry is better because of 1 season?come on now.Rondo cannot carry a team,but put a good team around him,and he will run the offense perfectly+being a top defender.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 06:35 PM
Jordan Hill is only 26 though. 2 years old than Faried. Fits the bill but these players are more suited for the bench. they don't yet provide any consistency upfront to be warranted as starters. Amir Johnson with more energy essentially.

That's what i'm saying though if we're going to replace Amir why not go with Thompson who is already better IMO, he's a starter and 4 years younger. Also, I think he'd do a better job helping Jonas out because he's capable of guarding C's which Amir struggle with because he's so weak. For example Thompson pretty much shut down Cousins vs the Kings after zeller got his *** handed to him in the first.

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 06:38 PM
Rondo has gone from being massively overrated,to being massively underrated.Lowry is better because of 1 season?come on now.Rondo cannot carry a team,but put a good team around him,and he will run the offense perfectly+being a top defender.

Rondo is still overrated and if someone could provide outstanding defensive stats in Rondo's favour, then sure.

Depends on who is rating him. And besides, put a good team around Lowry, and see how he does, which he's never had

Both are the same age and in their primes. what better way to compare them than in the last 2-4 years. We probably see who the better player when they become 30. both are in their primes now.

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 06:38 PM
Can't use DRtg to compare guys on different teams and/or different years. It's related to the defense the team has that year. That's why Boozer's DRtg with the Bulls is 98 in 250 games. Would you take his rating over a guy like Marc Gasol who's had a career 103 DRtg?

DWS is also meh

No, I wouldn't take Boozer over Marc Gasol for defensive purposes. That's why I said I didn't trust/like the stat.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 06:39 PM
Rondo has gone from being massively overrated,to being massively underrated.Lowry is better because of 1 season?come on now.Rondo cannot carry a team,but put a good team around him,and he will run the offense perfectly+being a top defender.

Yea but Lowry can carry a team...Rondo would be a top 5 player if he knew how to shoot but he can't...he's amazing at pretty much everything except scoring, it's pretty disappointing that he never developed a shot because he could have been great.

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 06:47 PM
Yea but Lowry can carry a team...Rondo would be a top 5 player if he knew how to shoot but he can't...he's amazing at pretty much everything except scoring, it's pretty disappointing that he never developed a shot because he could have been great.

Anybody who's watched the Celtics this year, knows that Rondo's shot is much improved. His stats in February can back that statement up. January was basically pre-season for him.

Shammyguy3
02-18-2014, 06:48 PM
No, I wouldn't take Boozer over Marc Gasol for defensive purposes. That's why I said I didn't trust/like the stat.

Right, which is why we don't need to bring it up unless they were on the same (and even then, meh). Anyways we agree. I'm waiting for Chronz or someone to come in here with those defensive metrics, i'm really interested in seeing how each player defends the pick & roll and in isolation

BoSox47
02-18-2014, 06:54 PM
Rondo is still overrated and if someone could provide outstanding defensive stats in Rondo's favour, then sure.

Depends on who is rating him. And besides, put a good team around Lowry, and see how he does, which he's never had

Both are the same age and in their primes. what better way to compare them than in the last 2-4 years. We probably see who the better player when they become 30. both are in their primes now.

four all defensive teams twice all nba first-team

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 06:59 PM
Anybody who's watched the Celtics this year, knows that Rondo's shot is much improved. His stats in February can back that statement up. January was basically pre-season for him.

only for 10 games though lets see if he can do it for a few seasons because he's been awful throughout his career (career 25% from 3).

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 07:00 PM
four all defensive teams twice all nba first-team

Rondo's an amazing defender I don't even know why people are arguing this.

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 07:02 PM
only for 10 games though lets see if he can do it for a few seasons because he's been awful throughout his career (career 25% from 3).

That's the point. He's improved his shot.

Vinylman
02-18-2014, 07:02 PM
Rondo's an amazing defender I don't even know why people are arguing this.

because they are

D

U

M

B

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 07:03 PM
four all defensive teams twice all nba first-team

doesn't really tell me anything. its a vote in by coaches. not (really) based on stats.

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 07:05 PM
Yea but Lowry can carry a team...Rondo would be a top 5 player if he knew how to shoot but he can't...he's amazing at pretty much everything except scoring, it's pretty disappointing that he never developed a shot because he could have been great.What team can he carry?You think he can carry a team in the playoffs in the WC?I highly doubt it.Don't talk me about this year's East.I would take almost 10 PG's in the West over him.In the East?Probably 1 or 2.

BoSox47
02-18-2014, 07:06 PM
doesn't really tell me anything. its a vote in by coaches. not (really) based on stats.

Your right, its a vote in by coaches who hear directly from their players why they are having trouble scoring due to a defender playing them well. Then the coaches hear the players talk about how rondo is one of the best defending pgs in the league as well as from the eyeball test. But what do the coaches know? probably nothing right?

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 07:06 PM
because they are

D

U

M

B

and people are being spoonfed that if someone says player A is amazing, people will believe that person without really looking into the numbers. Someone said Rondo is a better rebounder than Lowry. says who? stats say they are pretty much the same per 36. for example

Shammyguy3
02-18-2014, 07:06 PM
four all defensive teams twice all nba first-team

Even if we assumed that defensive-team accolades were a good indicator of individual production (which is a crazy way to judge someone), they have nothing to do with how he's defending TODAY this season.

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 07:07 PM
Your right, its a vote in by coaches who hear directly from their players why they are having trouble scoring due to a defender playing them well. Then the coaches hear the players talk about how rondo is one of the best defending pgs in the league as well as from the eyeball test. But what do the coaches know? probably nothing right?

of course. but eyes lie though. doesn't mean anything but one moment can leave a lasting impression on a person.

KnickaBocka.44
02-18-2014, 07:09 PM
of course. but eyes lie though. doesn't mean anything but one moment can leave a lasting impression on a person.

eyes lie much more on the offensive end of the floor.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 07:09 PM
That's the point. He's improved his shot.

Yea I witnessed something similar for a short period from Demar Derozan but it never lasts(his #'s are up a bit but he still shooting worse than he was in that stretch).

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 07:17 PM
Yea I witnessed something similar for a short period from Demar Derozan but it never lasts(his #'s are up a bit but he still shooting worse than he was in that stretch).

That's not what I mean. Rondo just came back from an ACL tear. It's not just his stats that are improved, his shot form is improved too.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 07:17 PM
What team can he carry?You think he can carry a team in the playoffs in the WC?I highly doubt it.Don't talk me about this year's East.I would take almost 10 PG's in the West over him.In the East?Probably 1 or 2.

With a proper team around him I'm betting he could be a starting PG on a championship Team. He was averaging 32 pts 4rbs 2.5 steals, and 9assists when Derozan was injured (including a win over the nets who were the hottest team in the league at the time). Also, there is no chance that there are 12 pg's in the NBA better than him.

Vinylman
02-18-2014, 07:18 PM
and people are being spoonfed that if someone says player A is amazing, people will believe that person without really looking into the numbers. Someone said Rondo is a better rebounder than Lowry. says who? stats say they are pretty much the same per 36. for example

what does the above have to do with Rondo being a very good defender?

do you agree or disagree... try and stay focused on what i and the other poster are talking about

Max.This
02-18-2014, 07:20 PM
reports say that Kings have absolutely no interest in parting with ben mclemore. Probably just smoke coming out to increase value of rondo

Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine 10m

Kings moved swiftly today to make it clear Ben McLemore will NOT be dealt this week but strong word in circulation is Thomas CAN be had

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 07:20 PM
That's not what I mean. Rondo just came back from an ACL tear. It's not just his stats that are improved, his shot form is improved too.

Then why do you want to trade him when you'll probably be picking up someone like Wiggins and your GM thinks he can sign some big FA's?

YoungOne
02-18-2014, 07:22 PM
funny how all here fight over some rumors :D

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 07:23 PM
reports say that Kings have absolutely no interest in parting with ben mclemore. Probably just smoke coming out to increase value of rondo

Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine 10m

Kings moved swiftly today to make it clear Ben McLemore will NOT be dealt this week but strong word in circulation is Thomas CAN be had

^^Ujiri is at work...increase Rondo's value and make the knicks even more desperate for Lowry = Raptors Payday

PT1083
02-18-2014, 07:23 PM
IMO Rondo is not worth 2 unprotected 1st round picks.

Green_Monster
02-18-2014, 07:24 PM
Then why do you want to trade him when you'll probably be picking up someone like Wiggins and your GM thinks he can sign some big FA's?

The Celtics don't "want" to trade him. But, if the right deal comes along (like Thomas, McLemore, 2 picks), than the Celtics would be dumb not to take it.

I'd personally love to keep Rondo, after seeing him play this year. If he came back this year, and looked like he did last year, then I would want to trade him.

Vinylman
02-18-2014, 07:26 PM
IMO Rondo is not worth 2 unprotected 1st round picks.

it depends on the two picks... definitely not two lottery picks but say a lottery pick this year plus one in the mid 20s in a different year... easily

Also, if boston takes a bad contract back the picks could be better

Max.This
02-18-2014, 07:28 PM
^^Ujiri is at work...increase Rondo's value and make the knicks even more desperate for Lowry = Raptors Payday

Idk, its not like the Celtics were gonna throw him away to begin with.

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 07:30 PM
With a proper team around him I'm betting he could be a starting PG on a championship Team. He was averaging 32 pts 4rbs 2.5 steals, and 9assists when Derozan was injured (including a win over the nets who were the hottest team in the league at the time). Also, there is no chance that there are 12 pg's in the NBA better than him.''Carry a team'' and ''start on a team'' is not the same.Sure he can start on a good team.I mean he is better than Chalmers or George Hill.But,can he carry a WC team to the playoffs as the 2nd best player?I doubt it.

Cp3,Curry,Parker,Dragic,Westbrook,Lillard are no doubt better.Then there are guys like Conley,Bledsoe,Wall,Irving,Lawson who are debatable,but some of them are better.And I won't even count healthy Rose,Rondo,or Deron.

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2014, 07:30 PM
^^Ujiri is at work...increase Rondo's value and make the knicks even more desperate for Lowry = Raptors Payday


Rumored Knicks gave up on him. It said there sure he isn't available so unless you guys call up doubt we get him

Max.This
02-18-2014, 07:30 PM
it depends on the two picks... definitely not two lottery picks but say a lottery pick this year plus one in the mid 20s in a different year... easily

Also, if boston takes a bad contract back the picks could be better

if any team took rondo back, it would only make them a lot better than what they are now.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 07:34 PM
''Carry a team'' and ''start on a team'' is not the same.Sure he can start on a good team.I mean he is better than Chalmers or George Hill.But,can he carry a WC team to the playoffs as the 2nd best player?I doubt it.

Cp3,Curry,Parker,Dragic,Westbrook,Lillard are no doubt better.Then there are guys like Conley,Bledsoe,Wall,Irving,Lawson who are debatable,but some of them are better.And I won't even count healthy Rose,Rondo,or Deron.

Betting you on a team like the Pacers he could.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 07:37 PM
if any team took rondo back, it would only make them a lot better than what they are now.

Except the Raptors because we'd have to give up at minimum Ross, vazquez and a first for a guy who is probably worse than the guy we already have. And then we would obviously trade Lowry right after for prospects/picks or whatever and be left with a team that's probably slightly worse.

Dbarbato235
02-18-2014, 07:38 PM
What do you guys think of this:
Boston receives: Ben McLemore, Marcus Thornton, '15 SAC 1st, NY 2nd
Sacramento receives: Rondo, Hardaway Jr.
NY receives: Isaiah Thomas

NY gets their PG and Sac gets another young piece is Hardaway.

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 07:38 PM
Betting you on a team like the Pacers he could.Hibbert is the 2nd most important Pacers player,that wouldn't change with Lowry.

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 07:40 PM
What do you guys think of this:
Boston receives: Ben McLemore, Marcus Thornton, '15 SAC 1st, NY 2nd
Sacramento receives: Rondo, Hardaway Jr.
NY receives: Isaiah Thomas

NY gets their PG and Sac gets another young piece is Hardaway.The Knicks would not give away their best young asset+a pick for Thomas.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 07:52 PM
Hibbert is the 2nd most important Pacers player,that wouldn't change with Lowry.

Lowry would become the second most important player in no time on that team. Want to hear a pathetic stat 7'2 Hibbert only averages 3.2 rebounds more than 6ft Lowry...

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 08:02 PM
Lowry would become the second most important player in no time on that team. Want to hear a pathetic stat 7'2 Hibbert only averages 3.2 rebounds more than 6ft Lowry...How about the best paint protection in the game?

NYKnicks4511
02-18-2014, 08:09 PM
Lowry would become the second most important player in no time on that team. Want to hear a pathetic stat 7'2 Hibbert only averages 3.2 rebounds more than 6ft Lowry...

And this is why stats can be misleading... Hibbert is a rim protector, not a rebounding machine. West cleans up the glass after Roy contests. Same goes for Tyson Chandler. Their impact can't be understated just because it isn't reflected in the box score.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 08:19 PM
And this is why stats can be misleading... Hibbert is a rim protector, not a rebounding machine. West cleans up the glass after Roy contests. Same goes for Tyson Chandler. Their impact can't be understated just because it isn't reflected in the box score.

I know exactly what Hibbert is (my team is in the East i'd have to be blind not to know he's a shot blocker) and i'm not trying to take anything away from him...I was just using him as example to show how impressive Lowry is for his size.

KnickaBocka.44
02-18-2014, 08:25 PM
I know exactly what Hibbert is (my team is in the East i'd have to be blind not to know he's a shot blocker) and i'm not trying to take anything away from him...I was just using him as example to show how impressive Lowry is for his size.

Lowry isn't even the best rebounding PG in this thread title. Stop overhyping him.

Captain Moroni
02-18-2014, 08:26 PM
hardaway is our only bright spot....so lets trade him.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 08:30 PM
Lowry isn't even the best rebounding PG in this thread title. Stop overhyping him.

he's 1st in the league for qualified PG's and would be 2nd if Rondo was there (assuming he can get back to his level).

flea
02-18-2014, 08:50 PM
This Huskies guy is something else.

knicksfan1794
02-18-2014, 09:10 PM
and you guys say knicks fans overrate their players, we may overrate what they may become but cmon lowry is better than rondo??

Lowry isn't even a top 5 pg gtfo

Jamiecballer
02-18-2014, 09:18 PM
and you guys say knicks fans overrate their players, we may overrate what they may become but cmon lowry is better than rondo??

Lowry isn't even a top 5 pg gtfo

this year he most certainly is but he probably needs to repeat it in order to get that respect and that's fair enough.

blahblahyoutoo
02-18-2014, 09:21 PM
Lowry isn't even the best rebounding PG in this thread title. Stop overhyping him.

don't worry. if he goes to the knicks, you guys will be calling him the next iverson.

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 09:30 PM
this year he most certainly is but he probably needs to repeat it in order to get that respect and that's fair enough.he is not top 5 this year.

Jamiecballer
02-18-2014, 09:32 PM
he is not top 5 this year.

what more do you want from a point guard? 6th in the entire NBA in win shares and does it with one of the lowest usage rates among all starting point guards. dude has been flat out spectacular this season.

perhaps you prefer point guards who dominate the crap out of the ball, score 4 extra points per game while settling for low percentage looks...

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 09:34 PM
what more do you want from a point guard? 6th in the entire NBA in win shares and does it with one of the lowest usage rates among all starting point guards. dude has been flat out spectacular this season.

perhaps you prefer point guards who dominate the crap out of the ball, score 4 extra points per game while settling for low percentage looks...He is still not top 5.Win shares don't tell you everything.

Jamiecballer
02-18-2014, 09:38 PM
He is still not top 5.Win shares don't tell you everything.

exceptional productivity (on both ends) without dominating the ball offensively is pretty damn valuable in most peoples eyes but to each his own. i'd love to know who you think has been better this year.

BHF
02-18-2014, 09:40 PM
:facepalm: Lowry is easily a top 5 pg this season

Jamiecballer
02-18-2014, 09:44 PM
:facepalm: Lowry is easily a top 5 pg this season

some people prefer the eye test, some people put a lot into advanced stats... to each his own.

Raps08-09 Champ
02-18-2014, 09:53 PM
Advance stats should be used to support eye tests.

siix
02-18-2014, 09:54 PM
hello no to this lowry>rondo and teague

Kelly Gruber
02-18-2014, 09:57 PM
Lowry is a stud. Raptors would be nowhere without him this year. Flat out dominant at times. If the Raptors are trading him, there had better be an upgrade involved, and that's a tough act to top right now. Better be a GREAT deal for Toronto or I'm fully against it as a Raptors fan. Rather take my chances riding this season out and hoping the success continues and Lowry re-signs.

Raptors are an impact big man and a bit of development time away from becoming a dangerous team. Unless he's assured you he won't be back or you get an offer you can't refuse, you ride his season out. I doubt any team is willing and able to match the Raptor's demands.

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 10:07 PM
add to Lowry's case, he is leading the lead in taking charges...as a PG. thats a last line of defense player and Lowry is there.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 10:08 PM
and you guys say knicks fans overrate their players, we may overrate what they may become but cmon lowry is better than rondo??

Lowry isn't even a top 5 pg gtfo

Lowry is having a better year than Rondo has ever had in terms of PER. Also, Lowry never played the majority of his career with three Hall of Famers to increase his stats.

bagwell368
02-18-2014, 10:10 PM
and you guys say knicks fans overrate their players, we may overrate what they may become but cmon lowry is better than rondo??

Lowry isn't even a top 5 pg gtfo

I've debated the Lowry question a lot this year. Even if he's not top 5, but maybe 8th - he's still better than Rondo and this year he smacks Rondo upside the head every season since his prime of 2008-2010 - w/o a doubt.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 10:11 PM
don't worry. if he goes to the knicks, you guys will be calling him the next iverson.

First people Lowry fans were being dumb about how good Rondo is and now Rondo fans are being dumb about how good Lowry is...Conclusion i'm pretty sure both sides only watch their players play and are talking out of their *****.

Raptors would be a lotto team right now if it weren't for Lowry, he's easily the MVP of our team.

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 10:13 PM
cp3/curry/dragic/lillard/wall of the top of my head are all better.

NBA_Starter
02-18-2014, 10:24 PM
I am ready for something somewhere to go down, this is going to be a long two days.

lajoie
02-18-2014, 10:32 PM
Lowry would become the second most important player in no time on that team. Want to hear a pathetic stat 7'2 Hibbert only averages 3.2 rebounds more than 6ft Lowry...

lol, I gotta say. You take being moronic to a whole other level.

BHF
02-18-2014, 10:35 PM
cp3/curry/dragic/lillard/wall of the top of my head are all better.

no

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 10:40 PM
nowhy?

FlakeyFool
02-18-2014, 10:47 PM
This Huskies guy is something else.

Luckily hes a huskies fan and not a raptors fan

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 10:47 PM
lol, I gotta say. You take being moronic to a whole other level.

do I or are you actually stupid enough to defend a guy who is 7'2 and only getting 7.7 rebounds a gm? Anthony Davis averages more blocks than him and averages 10.1 rbs..Ibaka averages more gets 8.8 rbs...Jordan is close to him for blocks and he averages 14rbs..So what's Hibbert's excuse?

GodsSon
02-18-2014, 10:48 PM
cp3/curry/dragic/lillard/wall of the top of my head are all better.

Lowry has been the best PG in the East this season.

Jamiecballer
02-18-2014, 10:52 PM
cp3/curry/dragic/lillard/wall of the top of my head are all better.

and that's why you don't use the top of your head. it's unreliable and highly influenced by public perception.

Chris Paul. sure, that's a no-brainer. Curry, yeah i agree. Dragic has been fantastic, almost as good as Lowry. Lillard is pretty good for sure, and if he was a strong defender he'd have a good case. John Wall? please. Offensively he's still got a long ways to go.

lajoie
02-18-2014, 10:55 PM
do I or are you actually stupid enough to defend a guy who is 7'2 and only getting 7.7 rebounds a gm? Anthony Davis averages more blocks than him and averages 10.1 rbs..Ibaka averages more gets 8.8 rbs...Jordan is close to him for blocks and he averages 14rbs..So what's Hibbert's excuse?

Yeah, I'll take the guy who anchors the best defense in the NBA including the best paint defense over a couple of more rebounds and blocks anyday.

WARRIORS@GR
02-18-2014, 11:00 PM
and that's why you don't use the top of your head. it's unreliable and highly influenced by public perception.That might be true.Any ways,Lowry is in the top 5-7 discussion this year,but my point doesn't change.Raptors fans are overrating him,and think they can get a fortune for a rental of a player having a career year.He has never been that good before,and he doesn't crack the top 10 PG list for me if everybody is healthy(in general,not this year).

Jamiecballer
02-18-2014, 11:01 PM
That might be true.Any ways,Lowry is in the top 5-7 discussion this year,but my point doesn't change.Raptors fans are overrating him,and think they can get a fortune for a rental of a player having a career year.He has never been that good before,and he doesn't crack the top 10 PG list for me if everybody is healthy(in general,not this year).

ya, i know it will take a miracle to get anyone near his caliber in return. ****** spot to be in.

BoSox47
02-18-2014, 11:07 PM
I think raptors fans are overrating lowry and every other fan is underrating him.

Is he a top 5 pg this year. Most likely. If he continues on this trend or even 90% of this he will be considered a top 8 or so pg in the league moving forward, but i think everyone has to agree one good year doesnt move you instantly up into overall top 5 pgs in the league. He is showing great promise but time will certainly be the answer.

RipCity32
02-18-2014, 11:13 PM
Rondo said he wont resign with the Raptors anyway so it doesnt really matter.

koreancabbage
02-18-2014, 11:32 PM
I think raptors fans are overrating lowry and every other fan is underrating him.

Is he a top 5 pg this year. Most likely. If he continues on this trend or even 90% of this he will be considered a top 8 or so pg in the league moving forward, but i think everyone has to agree one good year doesnt move you instantly up into overall top 5 pgs in the league. He is showing great promise but time will certainly be the answer.

its only because of the NYK and their initial offer of either THJ or the first rounder but Dolan said no. How are we overrating him when there was a serious offer from a GM willing to take him on for the first rounder earlier in the season in a trade only to be canned by the owner?

Kinglorious
02-18-2014, 11:34 PM
Rondo said he wont resign with the Raptors anyway so it doesnt really matter.

Yeah, I don't think he's going anywhere. Stranger things have happened, but I see Boston standing pat.

LanceUpperCut
02-18-2014, 11:41 PM
I think raptors fans are overrating lowry and every other fan is underrating him.

Is he a top 5 pg this year. Most likely. If he continues on this trend or even 90% of this he will be considered a top 8 or so pg in the league moving forward, but i think everyone has to agree one good year doesnt move you instantly up into overall top 5 pgs in the league. He is showing great promise but time will certainly be the answer.

Lowry has always been good just in the right situation to excel and he has. Us Raps fans have seen flashes last year and so have Rocket fans so it's not really as unexpected as most make it out to be.

LanceUpperCut
02-18-2014, 11:41 PM
Rondo said he wont resign with the Raptors anyway so it doesnt really matter.

Thank god.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 11:47 PM
Rondo said he wont resign with the Raptors anyway so it doesnt really matter.

I'd still trade for him so I can trade him again during the draft for Wiggins.

RipCity32
02-18-2014, 11:47 PM
Thank god.

Don't get to excited it was a tweet from Broussard, Lol.

TorontoHuskies
02-18-2014, 11:53 PM
Don't get to excited it was a tweet from Broussard, Lol.

oh so it was just nothing...

BoSox47
02-19-2014, 12:13 AM
Lowry has always been good just in the right situation to excel and he has. Us Raps fans have seen flashes last year and so have Rocket fans so it's not really as unexpected as most make it out to be.

If you got the impression i was implying it was unexpected im sorry, jsut trying to say this has been for lack fo a better word breakout year. Ive thought he had good potential for a while, but this is the first year he has lived up to what many thought his potential could be for a prolonged period of time.

All im saying is if he wants to be regarded as one of the best pg's in the league, one season isnt going to get him the nod, however if he can put together another season or two like this then absolutely he is in the discussion for top 5 pgs. I just dont think one good season is representative of him jumping into the top 5 pgs in the league tho he is on the verge.

Obviously people are free to disagree and have their own opinion, its just simply mine. I think hes a great player but like i said i want to see this over another season or two before i pull the trigger on saying he is one of the prominent pgs in the league.

Dooley
02-19-2014, 12:40 AM
Hawks Fan here. I see a three team deal between NY, ATL, & PHILLY

ATL- Spencer Hawes, Evan Turner
Philly - Andre Baragni, Iman Shumpret(& Maybe NY's 1st) or Just TH JR.
NY- Jeff Teauge, Demarre Carroll