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Clippersfan86
02-17-2014, 01:27 PM
Not sure if it's been posted yet but I found this quote hilarious. 80 year old man telling Lebron what's up.

"Thank you for leaving me off your Mount Rushmore. Im glad you did. Basketball is a team game. Its not for individual honors. I won back-to-back statechampionships in highschool. Back-to-back NCAAchampionships in college. I won an NBA championship my first year in the league. An NBA championship my last year. 9 in between. And that, Mr. James, is etched in stone."

This was said to Lebron pre all star game.

FlashBolt
02-17-2014, 01:44 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

Htownballa1622
02-17-2014, 01:47 PM
TBH Russell sounds a little butt hurt.

P&GRealist
02-17-2014, 01:48 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

Wow, now Heat fans are relegated to attacking an innocent 80 yr old man on essentially his birthday as they defend their sex god.

Get over yourself.

Tumstock
02-17-2014, 01:49 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.
Based on what?

mdm692
02-17-2014, 01:50 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

:laugh:

bholly
02-17-2014, 01:51 PM
Ugh, there are still people doing hairline jokes and, even worse, Le-whatever? Do you just not have a point at which a joke starts to become tired? Not to mention that it unnecessarily detracts from the actual point of the thread in favor of the stupid stuff. This forum is the just awful sometimes.



As to the actual quote, I love it. It's exactly the attitude you'd want these guys to have. It doesn't make LeBron wrong to prefer other guys, but I love that response.

ManRam
02-17-2014, 01:51 PM
Russell was a great player, but he won his rings when there were 8-14 teams in the NBA while often playing alongside 4+ Hall of Famers. Of COURSE he's going to talk about team success; no one ever was more set up for team success than him. If you think LeBron, Kobe, or whoever had an easy time winning it all now, well, Russell had cake-walks in comparison. His second year in the NBA he was a second team All-NBA player, and THREE of his teammates were first-teamers. Just imagine that. You think Bosh AND Wade is a lot...imagine having three first teamers playing with you in A EIGHT TEAM LEAGUE?!


A great winner, but he's not winning nearly as many rings in a 30 team NBA without 4-5+ HOFers alongside him.


He's always at the top of my most overrated list. It's no slight to him, it's a slight to those who look at his rings and treat them as equal value to winning a ring in the modern day.

It's the attitude to have, but let's not pretend this isn't apples to oranges.

lakerfan85
02-17-2014, 01:52 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

Because the east today is loaded with great teams right??

dhopisthename
02-17-2014, 01:52 PM
Wow, now Heat fans are relegated to attacking an innocent 80 yr old man on essentially his birthday as they defend their sex god.

Get over yourself.

take a little better look at his avatar and his sig

Clippersfan86
02-17-2014, 01:53 PM
Holly is the title really a big deal lol? I was bored, nothing more :).

2-ONE-5
02-17-2014, 01:53 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

you cant possibly prove that. but way to try and take away from his accomplishments

bholly
02-17-2014, 01:55 PM
Where did Russell actually say this? I can only see it on other forums, which makes me a little suspicious. I'm not sure he's been one to talk like this in the past - he's always super gracious and whatever, isn't he? Is there an actual record of it being said?



Holly is the title really a big deal lol? I was bored, nothing more :).

Not a big deal at all, just stupid to the point of being cringeworthy, so I cringed out loud.

ManRam
02-17-2014, 01:56 PM
Where did Russell actually say this? I can only see it on other forums, which makes me a little suspicious. I'm not sure he's been one to talk like this in the past - he's always super gracious and whatever, isn't he? Is there an actual record of it being said?




Not a big deal at all, just stupid to the point of being cringeworthy, so I cringed out loud.

He said it while being interviewed in the game last night. I remembering hearing it live.

bholly
02-17-2014, 01:58 PM
^Okay, cool, thanks!

Dade County
02-17-2014, 01:58 PM
Wow, now Heat fans are relegated to attacking an innocent 80 yr old man on essentially his birthday as they defend their sex god.

Get over yourself.


:laugh2:

Clippersfan86
02-17-2014, 01:59 PM
During ASG when singing happy birthday to Russell, Craig Sager gave the account. Don't see why he'd lie about something so specific. It sounds a lot like something Russell would say.

Maybe I'm just immature but this picture never stops being funny for me.

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/lebron-aging.jpg

Chronz
02-17-2014, 01:59 PM
Always found it disrespectful when he said nobody should ever wear MJ's number and then took up Russell's as if he wasn't once thought of in the same light.

P&GRealist
02-17-2014, 01:59 PM
take a little better look at his avatar and his sig

Ah good point, shame on me lol.

Then he should worry about his own guy KD who hasn't even sniffed a title.

Sadds The Gr8
02-17-2014, 02:00 PM
The league had like 3 teams when he won his rings plus his team was stacked. Whoopdey ****in doo...great player but he's not a top 5 player.

lakerfan85
02-17-2014, 02:01 PM
Russell was a great player, but he won his rings when there were 8-14 teams in the NBA while often playing alongside 4+ Hall of Famers. Of COURSE he's going to talk about team success; no one ever was more set up for team success than him. If you think LeBron, Kobe, or whoever had an easy time winning it all now, well, Russell had cake-walks in comparison. His second year in the NBA he was a second team All-NBA player, and THREE of his teammates were first-teamers. Just imagine that. You think Bosh AND Wade is a lot...imagine having three first teamers playing with you in A EIGHT TEAM LEAGUE?!


A great winner, but he's not winning nearly as many rings in a 30 team NBA without 4-5+ HOFers alongside him.


He's always at the top of my most overrated list. It's no slight to him, it's a slight to those who look at his rings and treat them as equal value to winning a ring in the modern day.

It's the attitude to have, but let's not pretend this isn't apples to oranges.

Another expert analysis from Manram...

lakerfan85
02-17-2014, 02:02 PM
During ASG when singing happy birthday to Russell, Craig Sager gave the account. Don't see why he'd lie about something so specific. It sounds a lot like something Russell would say.

Maybe I'm just immature but this picture never stops being funny for me.

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/lebron-aging.jpg

Lol!!

ManRam
02-17-2014, 02:04 PM
It's a matter of opinion. I'm not sure how it's "ethering" LeBron. He just said his opinion and all it hinged on was being a part of some amazingly talented teams.


Durant picked Kareem instead of Russell. Might as well say he "ethered" him too.

PSD as a whole voted him as the 5th best player ever. It's not an uncommon belief that he's not one of the 4 greatest ever. And frankly, a MUCH stronger argument could be made than the one he did

Clippersfan86
02-17-2014, 02:10 PM
Manram the ether part is a bit of hyperbole because I know that's how some will perceive it. Wow Chronz I didn't even think of the jersey number deal. If I was Russell I wouldn't respect Lebron as much either.

D-Leethal
02-17-2014, 02:11 PM
The all time greats with the rings to back them up will always use the rings argument. The all time greats with the ridonculous stats will always defend themselves and the guys without 5+ titles. These guys are all egomaniacs (thats part of what makes them great) and when it comes to their place in history and they want to protect it - especially after retirement when you can no longer let your play speak for itself. You hear it with MJ, Bron, Kobe, Phil, Russell, Shaq and the list goes on.

Green_Monster
02-17-2014, 02:13 PM
Russell was a great player, but he won his rings when there were 8-14 teams in the NBA while often playing alongside 4+ Hall of Famers. Of COURSE he's going to talk about team success; no one ever was more set up for team success than him. If you think LeBron, Kobe, or whoever had an easy time winning it all now, well, Russell had cake-walks in comparison. His second year in the NBA he was a second team All-NBA player, and THREE of his teammates were first-teamers. Just imagine that. You think Bosh AND Wade is a lot...imagine having three first teamers playing with you in A EIGHT TEAM LEAGUE?!


A great winner, but he's not winning nearly as many rings in a 30 team NBA without 4-5+ HOFers alongside him.


In a bigger league, those guys might not all be first teamers. You can't have it both ways.

ghettosean
02-17-2014, 02:16 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

The apologist is back in a new thread :laugh:

As to the bolded statement how do you know this?

bholly
02-17-2014, 02:29 PM
It's a matter of opinion. I'm not sure how it's "ethering" LeBron. He just said his opinion and all it hinged on was being a part of some amazingly talented teams.


Durant picked Kareem instead of Russell. Might as well say he "ethered" him too.

PSD as a whole voted him as the 5th best player ever. It's not an uncommon belief that he's not one of the 4 greatest ever. And frankly, a MUCH stronger argument could be made than the one he did

In fairness, I don't think that's Clippsfan's word, it's just the word that was used on other forums. Sort of like how when Bynum made the Barea hit and the commentator said it was 'bush league' and suddenly that just happened to be the exact expression that everyone's totally uninfluenced opinion just happened to be based around.

VendettaRed07
02-17-2014, 02:32 PM
Am I the only one who found it a bit hipocrytical for him to say " it's not about individual honors" then to follow it up with "I won this, I won that, how could you leave me off of your Mount Rushmore??!?"

Not trying to give the guy a hard time he's like 80 but I mean come on, let's stop talking about every sentence lebron says all the time

sunsfan88
02-17-2014, 02:34 PM
Bill Russel...he mad.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2014, 02:37 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.


Hahahhahahh. You are so cute.

Russell > lebron

JEDean89
02-17-2014, 02:45 PM
ya'll really don't think a 6' 9" guy who can do this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pivrE_mqmhs

wouldn't succeed in the nba today?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
02-17-2014, 02:46 PM
lol he mad

bholly
02-17-2014, 02:57 PM
Am I the only one who found it a bit hipocrytical for him to say " it's not about individual honors" then to follow it up with "I won this, I won that, how could you leave me off of your Mount Rushmore??!?"

Not trying to give the guy a hard time he's like 80 but I mean come on, let's stop talking about every sentence lebron says all the time

He said "Basketball is a team game. Its not for individual honors." then listed his teams' accomplishments. If he had've listed his 5 MVPs and 12 All Star games and all his first and second teams and rebounding titles and everything else then you'd have a legit point, but it's not hypocritical at all to say its about team accomplishments and then list those. His point is that he doesn't care so much about the individual stuff like being an a Mt Rushmore, he cares about his teams' stuff. Saying "I won" obviously isn't him saying it was his individual accomplishment, it's just the natural way of saying "I was on teams that won", especially in this context.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2014, 03:01 PM
ya'll really don't think a 6' 9" guy who can do this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pivrE_mqmhs

wouldn't succeed in the nba today?

Even so it doesn't matter. That was 40 years ago. You can't compare like that. Of course players 40 years ago are gonna look like YMCA players

Heediot
02-17-2014, 03:08 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

It`ll be a lot harder but how can you say never.

Bruno
02-17-2014, 03:11 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

...wilt, west baylor. do you need to be reminded that LBJs heat played a sub. 500 team in the first round and a bulls team without deng or rose? 50% of their post-season was a cake-walk, and the other 50% was gift wrapped like a christmas present by the opposing teams coaches.

Slug3
02-17-2014, 03:13 PM
It's crazy how some of you are thinking Lebron is stupid or whatever for leaving Russle off. But then I go and look at the "who's on your Mount Rushmore" thread and pretty much nobody has him in their all time one. Some of you are being a hypocrite.

Slug3
02-17-2014, 03:15 PM
...wilt, west baylor. do you need to be reminded that LBJs heat played a sub. 500 team in the first round and a bulls team without deng or rose? 50% of their post-season was a cake-walk, and the other 50% was gift wrapped like a christmas present by the opposing teams coaches.

It happens sometimes. Remember those Laker teams that played pathetic teams in the finals and stomped them. You can't really blame them for what was in front of them.

Big Zo
02-17-2014, 03:16 PM
I personally would put Wilt and Kareem above him.

Yanks All Day
02-17-2014, 03:17 PM
Russell was a great player, but he won his rings when there were 8-14 teams in the NBA while often playing alongside 4+ Hall of Famers. Of COURSE he's going to talk about team success; no one ever was more set up for team success than him. If you think LeBron, Kobe, or whoever had an easy time winning it all now, well, Russell had cake-walks in comparison. His second year in the NBA he was a second team All-NBA player, and THREE of his teammates were first-teamers. Just imagine that. You think Bosh AND Wade is a lot...imagine having three first teamers playing with you in A EIGHT TEAM LEAGUE?!


A great winner, but he's not winning nearly as many rings in a 30 team NBA without 4-5+ HOFers alongside him.


He's always at the top of my most overrated list. It's no slight to him, it's a slight to those who look at his rings and treat them as equal value to winning a ring in the modern day.

It's the attitude to have, but let's not pretend this isn't apples to oranges.

Yep. Basically this. Russell just sounds a little defensive that he was left off LeBron's top 4. It's like Kobe said, though, there have been thousands of great players and it is impossible to pick 4. Naturally, some greats have to be left off. Russell's accomplishments are undisputed and will likely never be matched in today's NBA, but I personally don't believe he's a top 4 great of all time. Behind Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, it is almost an impossible debate in my mind.

mjt20mik
02-17-2014, 03:18 PM
Lebron is playing with 3 HOF now too... and he barely won his last championship...

So someone tell me again how Bill Russell isn't better?

PraiseJesus
02-17-2014, 03:30 PM
Bill Russell > >>>> Larry Bird

Chronz
02-17-2014, 03:30 PM
ya'll really don't think a 6' 9" guy who can do this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pivrE_mqmhs

wouldn't succeed in the nba today?

Becoming a broken record here but he was 6"10 and would be listed at 6"11 in todays NBA.

Chronz
02-17-2014, 03:31 PM
Even so it doesn't matter. That was 40 years ago. You can't compare like that. Of course players 40 years ago are gonna look like YMCA players

Hes saying he would succeed.

bholly
02-17-2014, 03:34 PM
Lebron is playing with 3 HOF now too... and he barely won his last championship...

So someone tell me again how Bill Russell isn't better?

Some people are capable of assessinga player's quality beyond basic accolades and team accomplishments.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2014, 03:41 PM
Not sure if it's been posted yet but I found this quote hilarious. 80 year old man telling Lebron what's up.

"Thank you for leaving me off your Mount Rushmore. Im glad you did. Basketball is a team game. Its not for individual honors. I won back-to-back statechampionships in highschool. Back-to-back NCAAchampionships in college. I won an NBA championship my first year in the league. An NBA championship my last year. 9 in between. And that, Mr. James, is etched in stone."

This was said to Lebron pre all star game.

ok Bill....

One of the more overrated players in history, directly because of his statement. Basketball IS a team game, so rating Bill because of his TEAMS championships never made sense to me. Top 10 ever? Probably so. Top 4? Get the **** out of here.

Minimal
02-17-2014, 03:44 PM
Lol Russell is mad. Played in the era of 8-14 teams, with a bunch of HOF players.
Made All Nba first team only 3 times in his career lol. You know who was in the first team most of the time? Wilt Chamberlain and Russells teammates.
Most overrated player ever, he shouldn't even sniff Mount Rushmore.

John Walls Era
02-17-2014, 04:03 PM
He was an athletic freak so I can't say he wouldn't win championships in the modern era (or 90-00s), but it would be much tougher for his team to win that many titles. So I don't really think his argument is valid.

Delrayhc
02-17-2014, 04:14 PM
.........

kdspurman
02-17-2014, 04:14 PM
He thinks it's a team game. Some guys just look at things differently. I'm sure there are several players who would respectfully decline being put on an NBA Mount Rushmore simply because they appreciate their teammates/coaches, etc... and wouldn't want that. Guys just have a different mentality when it comes to that kind of thing

beliges
02-17-2014, 04:20 PM
Lol Russell is mad. Played in the era of 8-14 teams, with a bunch of HOF players.
Made All Nba first team only 3 times in his career lol. You know who was in the first team most of the time? Wilt Chamberlain and Russells teammates.
Most overrated player ever, he shouldn't even sniff Mount Rushmore.

Not surprised. Seems like today's fans are completely ignorant when it comes to the history of the game. Do not mean to speak for most here, but to me you are the typical new era, Lebron fan.

Minimal
02-17-2014, 04:31 PM
Not surprised. Seems like today's fans are completely ignorant when it comes to the history of the game. Do not mean to speak for most here, but to me you are the typical new era, Lebron fan.
What does LeBron even have to do with this?
Its about Bill Russell and he basically says he should be on Mount Rushmore, thats a joke. He is nowhere near Mount Rushmore, overrated player. MJ, Wilt, KAJ, Magic, thats your Mount rushmore and I can name a couple more before I name Russell.

Youre just a Kobephile thats all, so who is on your Mount Rushmore?

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2014, 04:31 PM
Lol Russell is mad. Played in the era of 8-14 teams, with a bunch of HOF players.
Made All Nba first team only 3 times in his career lol. You know who was in the first team most of the time? Wilt Chamberlain and Russells teammates.
Most overrated player ever, he shouldn't even sniff Mount Rushmore.

And Lebron should? The guy who tries to make everything as easy as possible for him - tampering one of the most lopsided rosters of all-time in comparison to the rest of the league. All while promising 7 championships, breaking Bulls 72-10 record..and coming up well short of both. Embarassing himself in his first Finals, as well as the last one. Yes the last one, where people seem to forget Lebron bricked back to back attempts of a 3 off the backboard to 'save' his team right before Bosh got the rebound to kick to Ray for the tie.

You can knock Russell..personally I agree, he's not top 5, but it is impressive to win as many championships as he has his whole life. College and High School too.

Minimal
02-17-2014, 04:37 PM
And Lebron should? The guy who tries to make everything as easy as possible for him - tampering one of the most lopsided rosters of all-time in comparison to the rest of the league. All while promising 7 championships, breaking Bulls 72-10 record..and coming up well short of both. Embarassing himself in his first Finals, as well as the last one. Yes the last one, where people seem to forget Lebron bricked back to back attempts of a 3 off the backboard to 'save' his team right before Bosh got the rebound to kick to Ray for the tie.

You can knock Russell..personally I agree, he's not top 5, but it is impressive to win as many championships as he has his whole life. College and High School too.
Did I say a word about LeBron? Any normal NBA fan won't put him as top 4 player at the moment. Not gonna even respond to your LeBron arguments.

Slug3
02-17-2014, 04:38 PM
And Lebron should? The guy who tries to make everything as easy as possible for him - tampering one of the most lopsided rosters of all-time in comparison to the rest of the league. All while promising 7 championships, breaking Bulls 72-10 record..and coming up well short of both. Embarassing himself in his first Finals, as well as the last one. Yes the last one, where people seem to forget Lebron bricked back to back attempts of a 3 off the backboard to 'save' his team right before Bosh got the rebound to kick to Ray for the tie.

You can knock Russell..personally I agree, he's not top 5, but it is impressive to win as many championships as he has his whole life. College and High School too.

There are a lot of greats that needed help from other players. Remember Kerr hitting that 3? What about for LA and Horray hitting a 3 at the very end of a game or fish as well. Why do people act like the only players to ever hit big shots are the stars?

Bos_Sports4Life
02-17-2014, 04:51 PM
Here's a few Bill Russell FACTS

FACT 1. Bostons Offense finished DEAD LAST or 2nd too LAST in fg % 6 times. They won the NBA Title EVERY SINGLE ONE of those 6 yrs.

FACT2 2. (NOTE:If you know the Stat Drtg this is very impressive).

YR Drtg Rank Diff from League Avg. Diff from 2nd place
1956 90.4 6/8 -1.5
--------------------------------------------------------
1957 82.4 1/8 4.8 2.5
1958 82.0 1/8 5.2 3.9
1959 83.0 1/8 5.8 4.4
1960 83.9 1/8 6.2 1.8
1961 83.0 1/8 8.2 4.6
1962 84.3 1/8 8.7 6.3
1963 86.6 1/9 9.0 6.1
1964 82.7 1/9 11.5 5.6
1965 83.1 1/9 9.9 8.1
1966 87.3 1/9 7.1 4.0
1967 90.8 1/10 4.9 1.7
1968 92.0 2/12 4.6 -
1969 88.4 1/14 6.8 2.8
------------------------------------------------------------
1970 98.5 7/16 0.6 -
*1956 (the yr before Russell)
* 1970 (the yr after Russell)
(1) The Celtics led the league in defense in 12 of Russells' 13 years

(2) From 1958-1966 they dominated the league defensively like no team I can find for a 9 year period

(3) From 1961-1965 the ran off 5 consecutive historically dominant seasons. Look at those numbers.

(4) Before Russell they were a bottom defensive team and immediately jumped 6.3 relative points and 8.0 raw
points to the top.

(5) After Russell they dropped to the middle of the pack, losing 6.2 relative points and 10.1 raw points.

According to Neil's method at B-R, who is slightly underestimating Boston's pace relative to the simple method (because he's assuming fewer turnovers are in play), those uber-dominant Celtics teams are the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th and 14th best defensive teams of all time, relative to competition. And there's nothing remotely comparable in NBA history for such sustained defensive dominance.


FACT 3: Russell do when it mattered? He was a perfect 11-0 In deciding games (10-0 in game 7's, 1-0 in game 5)


FACT 4: The 2 longest losing streaks of that whole era, was when Russell went down with injury.

FACT 5: The Celtics went from Winning there 11th title in 13 yrs in '69 to missing the playoffs the following year.

FACT 6: This stat is for the saber crowd..

During Last 10 title Runs- (excluding russells rookie yr as he played in olympics, total off)

Russell Defensive Win shares- 112.1

Offensive win shares, outside of Russell- 117.0

Now, The whole offense outside of Russell COMBINED for only 5 more win shares than Russell BY HIMSELF had on Defense. Russells offense from 57-58 too 68-89 accomplished a mere 12.65 offensive win shares a yr outside of Bill, and only 11.7 Offensive win shares during the last 10 title runs of that era.

Four of the title teams had LESS than 11 COMBINED offensive win shares outside of Bill.

FACT 7: Russell is the ONLY member of those 11 title teams during that 13 yr stretch.


NOW...Here's some Quotes..


"I don't want to rap Wilt because I believe only Russell was better, and i really respect what Wilt did. But I have to say he wouldn't adjust to you, You had to adjust to him"- Jerry West

"Wilt was too consumed with records: being the first to lead the league in assists, or to set a record for field goal %. He'd accomplish one goal, than go on to another. Russell only asked one question: 'What can I do to make us win?"- Jerry Lucas

Wilt Chamberlain (in.Wilt): “To Bill [Russell] every game一every championship game一was a challenge, a test to his manhood. He took the game so seriously that he threw up in the locker room before almost every game. But I tend to look at basketball as a game, not a life or death struggle. I don’t need scoring titles or championships to prove that I’m a man. There are too many other beautiful things in life一food, cars,girls, friends, the beach, freedom一to get that emotionally wrapped up in basketball. I think Bill knew I felt that way, and l think he both envied and resented my attitude. On the one hand, I think he wished he could learn to take things easier, too; on the other hand, I think he mayhave felt that with my natural ability and willingness to work hard, my teams could have won an NBA championship every year if l was as totally com-mitted to victory as he was. . .. I wish I had won all those championships,but I really think I grew more as a man in defeat than Russell did in vic-tory.”

"The difference between Russell and Wilt was this: Russell would ask, 'What do I need to do to make my teammates better?' Then he'd do it. Wilt honestly thought the best way for his team to win was for him to be in the best possible setting. He'd ask, 'What's the best situation for me?' ----Butch van Breda Kollf


Yea, RUSSELL IS OVERRATED!!!

beliges
02-17-2014, 05:15 PM
What does LeBron even have to do with this?
Its about Bill Russell and he basically says he should be on Mount Rushmore, thats a joke. He is nowhere near Mount Rushmore, overrated player. MJ, Wilt, KAJ, Magic, thats your Mount rushmore and I can name a couple more before I name Russell.

Youre just a Kobephile thats all, so who is on your Mount Rushmore?

I used Lebron just as an example of the new age NBA fan. The younger generation NBA fans. Those fans who seemingly do not have much knowledge of the NBA pre Lebron. I used Lebron as an example because obviously he has a lot of fans. And thanks for making my point by simply name calling and calling me a kobephile when this has nothing to do with Kobe.

This game has endured a very long history of amazing players and a lot of players who have accomplished a ton more than Lebron has. All I am asking is understand the history of the game before you make an attempt to comment on it.

kingsdelez24
02-17-2014, 05:24 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

Does the name Wilt Chamberlain ring a bell?

Minimal
02-17-2014, 05:26 PM
I used Lebron just as an example of the new age NBA fan. The younger generation NBA fans. Those fans who seemingly do not have much knowledge of the NBA pre Lebron. I used Lebron as an example because obviously he has a lot of fans. And thanks for making my point by simply name calling and calling me a kobephile when this has nothing to do with Kobe.

This game has endured a very long history of amazing players and a lot of players who have accomplished a ton more than Lebron has. All I am asking is understand the history of the game before you make an attempt to comment on it.
I named you a Kobephille simply because you are one, and you brought up LeBron, because you hate him, no need for excuses. Thats why every guy you don't agree with will be a "LeBron fan" for you.

3RDASYSTEM
02-17-2014, 05:38 PM
RUSSELL is the huge and only reason I need to validate my claim that rings mean nothing, it's all about the individual player and his dominance and impact(both on and off) combined and RUSSELL has claimed that WILT was the most dominant in that era so he has to be on that, so does ALCINDOR who not only won big like RUSS but he was so dominant combined with HS-NCAA-NBA, after that it's a toss up but I chose others and not RUSS but he is the greatest champion in nba history, bar none winning 11 in 13yrs, JORDAN has 6 and is considered the GOAT, so RUSS has to be no less than 1a or all that talking about winnings rings is a bunch of ******** that I always stated it was

Bruno
02-17-2014, 05:57 PM
...why do we feel like we need to take every great player who's ever played and narrow them down into a top four as if it has any significance? should we discuss the greatest starting four in NBA history next? the greatest four rebounders? the greatest four connect four players?

i mean what are we even doing using this template as basis for ranking and comparison? sounds like a dumb idea to me. thanks lebron.

beliges
02-17-2014, 05:58 PM
I named you a Kobephille simply because you are one, and you brought up LeBron, because you hate him, no need for excuses. Thats why every guy you don't agree with will be a "LeBron fan" for you.

LOL. This thread is about Lebron. Excuse me for referencing Lebron in a Lebron thread.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2014, 06:12 PM
What does LeBron even have to do with this?
Its about Bill Russell and he basically says he should be on Mount Rushmore, thats a joke. He is nowhere near Mount Rushmore, overrated player. MJ, Wilt, KAJ, Magic, thats your Mount rushmore and I can name a couple more before I name Russell.

Youre just a Kobephile thats all, so who is on your Mount Rushmore?

This should be common knowledge imo. As of right now, that HAS to be the top 4. It's not even that debatable in my eyes, those four had the greatest impact on basketball to date. KAJ might not be as IMPACTFUL as the other 3 but he sure as hell is in there for many reasons.

1. MJ
2-4. Wilt, Magic, KAJ (no particular order).

Russell, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Robertson, probably Kobe, Olajuwan, most likely Lebron fill out the next set of elitists. It's pretty impossible to order though.

b@llhog24
02-17-2014, 06:14 PM
:yawn:

ricky recon
02-17-2014, 06:15 PM
If championship rings mean nothing, then why play the game?

MTar786
02-17-2014, 06:17 PM
its as simple as this. kobe lovers will agree and lebron lovers will disagree. lol... such sheep we are

MTar786
02-17-2014, 06:20 PM
i love how so many agree that bird is on this list but at the same time most people say lebron is the best sf ever. but would never put him on this Rushmore list. my list no one would agree with either. so in a way this proves lobes point.

jordan
kareem
shaq
magic (magics spot can be taken)

Tony_Starks
02-17-2014, 06:41 PM
If championship rings mean nothing, then why play the game?


PSD logic says rings are no longer important. It's all about efficiency now. Any lucky player can win a ring they practically just give them away,takes no skill whatsoever.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2014, 06:47 PM
Here's a few Bill Russell FACTS

FACT 1. Bostons Offense finished DEAD LAST or 2nd too LAST in fg % 6 times. They won the NBA Title EVERY SINGLE ONE of those 6 yrs.

FACT2 2. (NOTE:If you know the Stat Drtg this is very impressive).

YR Drtg Rank Diff from League Avg. Diff from 2nd place
1956 90.4 6/8 -1.5
--------------------------------------------------------
1957 82.4 1/8 4.8 2.5
1958 82.0 1/8 5.2 3.9
1959 83.0 1/8 5.8 4.4
1960 83.9 1/8 6.2 1.8
1961 83.0 1/8 8.2 4.6
1962 84.3 1/8 8.7 6.3
1963 86.6 1/9 9.0 6.1
1964 82.7 1/9 11.5 5.6
1965 83.1 1/9 9.9 8.1
1966 87.3 1/9 7.1 4.0
1967 90.8 1/10 4.9 1.7
1968 92.0 2/12 4.6 -
1969 88.4 1/14 6.8 2.8
------------------------------------------------------------
1970 98.5 7/16 0.6 -
*1956 (the yr before Russell)
* 1970 (the yr after Russell)
(1) The Celtics led the league in defense in 12 of Russells' 13 years

(2) From 1958-1966 they dominated the league defensively like no team I can find for a 9 year period

(3) From 1961-1965 the ran off 5 consecutive historically dominant seasons. Look at those numbers.

(4) Before Russell they were a bottom defensive team and immediately jumped 6.3 relative points and 8.0 raw
points to the top.

(5) After Russell they dropped to the middle of the pack, losing 6.2 relative points and 10.1 raw points.

According to Neil's method at B-R, who is slightly underestimating Boston's pace relative to the simple method (because he's assuming fewer turnovers are in play), those uber-dominant Celtics teams are the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th and 14th best defensive teams of all time, relative to competition. And there's nothing remotely comparable in NBA history for such sustained defensive dominance.


FACT 3: Russell do when it mattered? He was a perfect 11-0 In deciding games (10-0 in game 7's, 1-0 in game 5)


FACT 4: The 2 longest losing streaks of that whole era, was when Russell went down with injury.

FACT 5: The Celtics went from Winning there 11th title in 13 yrs in '69 to missing the playoffs the following year.

FACT 6: This stat is for the saber crowd..

During Last 10 title Runs- (excluding russells rookie yr as he played in olympics, total off)

Russell Defensive Win shares- 112.1

Offensive win shares, outside of Russell- 117.0

Now, The whole offense outside of Russell COMBINED for only 5 more win shares than Russell BY HIMSELF had on Defense. Russells offense from 57-58 too 68-89 accomplished a mere 12.65 offensive win shares a yr outside of Bill, and only 11.7 Offensive win shares during the last 10 title runs of that era.

Four of the title teams had LESS than 11 COMBINED offensive win shares outside of Bill.

FACT 7: Russell is the ONLY member of those 11 title teams during that 13 yr stretch.


NOW...Here's some Quotes..


"I don't want to rap Wilt because I believe only Russell was better, and i really respect what Wilt did. But I have to say he wouldn't adjust to you, You had to adjust to him"- Jerry West

"Wilt was too consumed with records: being the first to lead the league in assists, or to set a record for field goal %. He'd accomplish one goal, than go on to another. Russell only asked one question: 'What can I do to make us win?"- Jerry Lucas

Wilt Chamberlain (in.Wilt): “To Bill [Russell] every game一every championship game一was a challenge, a test to his manhood. He took the game so seriously that he threw up in the locker room before almost every game. But I tend to look at basketball as a game, not a life or death struggle. I don’t need scoring titles or championships to prove that I’m a man. There are too many other beautiful things in life一food, cars,girls, friends, the beach, freedom一to get that emotionally wrapped up in basketball. I think Bill knew I felt that way, and l think he both envied and resented my attitude. On the one hand, I think he wished he could learn to take things easier, too; on the other hand, I think he mayhave felt that with my natural ability and willingness to work hard, my teams could have won an NBA championship every year if l was as totally com-mitted to victory as he was. . .. I wish I had won all those championships,but I really think I grew more as a man in defeat than Russell did in vic-tory.”

"The difference between Russell and Wilt was this: Russell would ask, 'What do I need to do to make my teammates better?' Then he'd do it. Wilt honestly thought the best way for his team to win was for him to be in the best possible setting. He'd ask, 'What's the best situation for me?' ----Butch van Breda Kollf


Yea, RUSSELL IS OVERRATED!!!

Glad you posted this. Hopefully everyone reads it. Good info

beliges
02-17-2014, 06:57 PM
PSD logic says rings are no longer important. It's all about efficiency now. Any lucky player can win a ring they practically just give them away,takes no skill whatsoever.

Nevermind that there is one common variable amongst all the legendary greats. That one common variable is that each of those players were multiple time champions. Throughout the history of the game, this is the one commonality that distinguished the great players from the legendary players.

Bos_Sports4Life
02-17-2014, 07:04 PM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

He beat a trio of wilt/Baylor/west in game 7 on the road to cap off an upset and his 11th title in 13 yrs..

Who has lebron beat??

Tony_Starks
02-17-2014, 07:04 PM
Nevermind that there is one common variable amongst all the legendary greats. That one common variable is that each of those players were multiple time champions. Throughout the history of the game, this is the one commonality that distinguished the great players from the legendary players.

Thank you. People act like its just some fluke that all the all time greats are champs....

*Silver&Black*
02-17-2014, 07:09 PM
I never understand why people just don't watch a certain player if they don't like them? Me personally, I have been going through an entire season avoiding every Heat game (unless they play the team I root for, the Hawks). Lebron isn't in MY NBA that I watch. I'm more interested in watching Goran Dragic play than someone I don't care to see. Not a fan of players that get to the foul line based on the celebrity status they have (Harden for example). I just avoid watching that garbage.

People seem to forget the NBA, like any other thing on TV, is a form of entertainment, and taste are subjective. Don't watch what you don't like, and you will feel better. I don't watch the all-star game because half of the players in the game I don't care for. Not a fan of the sneaker selling, ESPN made stars that get shoved down your throat all day long. I avoid ESPN (unless a ball game I'm interested in is on). Just watch what you like, list the 'best' players on what you like and not what others tell you. You will like the game much better that way.

LA_Raiders
02-17-2014, 11:58 PM
Well said, and he did not need to team up with all stars like Leflop.

Russell > LeFlop

Chronz
02-18-2014, 12:39 AM
Glad you posted this. Hopefully everyone reads it. Good info

Tell him to post the effect russ had on his team's offense and you'll never get a response

RLundi
02-18-2014, 12:44 AM
"Ethers"? Hardly.

mngopher35
02-18-2014, 01:35 AM
Well said, and he did not need to team up with all stars like Leflop.

Russell > LeFlop

Those Boston teams had loads of talent compared to their competition, I have no idea if you are serious or not? All Stars like Cousy, havlicek, Sharman Howell, Jones. They were favored to win it all many years and are known for having tons of talent in an 8 team league (14 teams by the end of his career I believe). What makes you say this?

cubbie92
02-18-2014, 02:20 AM
I never understand why people just don't watch a certain player if they don't like them? Me personally, I have been going through an entire season avoiding every Heat game (unless they play the team I root for, the Hawks). Lebron isn't in MY NBA that I watch. I'm more interested in watching Goran Dragic play than someone I don't care to see. Not a fan of players that get to the foul line based on the celebrity status they have (Harden for example). I just avoid watching that garbage.

People seem to forget the NBA, like any other thing on TV, is a form of entertainment, and taste are subjective. Don't watch what you don't like, and you will feel better. I don't watch the all-star game because half of the players in the game I don't care for. Not a fan of the sneaker selling, ESPN made stars that get shoved down your throat all day long. I avoid ESPN (unless a ball game I'm interested in is on). Just watch what you like, list the 'best' players on what you like and not what others tell you. You will like the game much better that way.

I agree 100 percent. Though this place might be a ghost town if everyone followed that way of thinking.

COOLbeans
02-18-2014, 02:38 AM
People disrespecting Russell know jack **** about basketball.

Greatest defender and 2nd best player ever to play basketball. It's sad the level of ignorance displayed in this thread. Only MJ and Kareem can stand up against Russell.

COOLbeans
02-18-2014, 02:40 AM
He beat a trio of wilt/Baylor/west in game 7 on the road to cap off an upset and his 11th title in 13 yrs..

Who has lebron beat??

:clap:

Ebbs
02-18-2014, 02:45 AM
TBH Russell sounds a little butt hurt.
lol
Mmmm true but he's pl

Ebbs
02-18-2014, 02:46 AM
TBH Russell sounds a little butt hurt.
lol
Mmmm true but he's not wrong

Htownballa1622
02-18-2014, 02:49 AM
lol
Mmmm true but he's not wrong

No i feel ya but Russell doesn't have to try and tell Lebron what he's done. His resume' speaks for itself.

Bill responding to Lebron made it seem like Lebron's list was somewhat important to him.

mngopher35
02-18-2014, 02:54 AM
He says it's a team game, then says I won, I won, I won. Not saying it's bad as he was making a point about winning titles, but I just noticed that and found it kinda funny. No matter what you think of either player both are all-time greats. I think both will have arguments to be up there in the top 4 (Lebron obviously having work to do still).

I don't have a problem with Lebron projecting himself up there one day or Bill's response.

Chronz
02-18-2014, 03:02 AM
People disrespecting Russell know jack **** about basketball.

Greatest defender and 2nd best player ever to play basketball. It's sad the level of ignorance displayed in this thread. Only MJ and Kareem can stand up against Russell.

You dont think Hakeem was a better defender? Definitely better offensively. Maybe he couldnt win like Russell but theres no guarantee Russ would in his situation either. What does your top 5-10 look like anyways?

Chronz
02-18-2014, 03:05 AM
He says it's a team game, then says I won, I won, I won. Not saying it's bad as he was making a point about winning titles, but I just noticed that and found it kinda funny. No matter what you think of either player both are all-time greats. I think both will have arguments to be up there in the top 4 (Lebron obviously having work to do still).

I don't have a problem with Lebron projecting himself up there one day or Bill's response.
Seems to me that Russ has always had a low key selfish ego, from wanting to be paid 1$ more than Wilt to trashing him right before retiring, he always wanted the last maniacal laugh. In this situation, I just take it as Russ saying its about the impact you have on your team. That we should measure individuals by their presence in the win-loss column.

Nothing wrong with that.

mngopher35
02-18-2014, 03:16 AM
Seems to me that Russ has always had a low key selfish ego, from wanting to be paid 1$ more than Wilt to trashing him right before retiring, he always wanted the last maniacal laugh. In this situation, I just take it as Russ saying its about the impact you have on your team. That we should measure individuals by their presence in the win-loss column.

Nothing wrong with that.

Hmm, I wasn't aware of the bold (a bit too young to know all of the details). I don't have a problem with it at all either, most/all of these all time greats have an ego and think they are or should be known as one of the best (heck even a lot of regular players have this attitude).

Ya like I said I understand his point but I just find it funny to see someone say it is a team game only to go on with "I won, I won, I won". I don't think judging an individual just off of team success is the best, but he has had tons throughout his career so I can see why that's how he would want to be judged. I wish I could have gotten to see him play so that I could judge him for myself as a player but with me it is based off of the little tape I've seen and stories/stats throughout the years.

numba1CHANGsta
02-18-2014, 03:17 AM
Bill Russell has the right to say this, why? okay yeah Russell and the Celtics basically didn't have that much of a competition back in those days, but can't the same be said for LeBron? i mean first off the East sucks! only 2 championship contenders in that conference, Also its been kinda like that the past 3 years there with an aging Celtics and a D-Rose less Bulls being the best teams. 11 rings is 11 rings, the equivalent of that in this era would be getting 6-7 rings but doing it with the same team, this is why I have MJ/Russell/Magic/Kareem in my Mt. Rushmore cuz they won 5 rings or more with the same team and won multiple MVP awards. When LeBron wins 5 then he can start talking about him being in the top 4 all-time

MagicBucsSox
02-18-2014, 03:20 AM
Based on what?

Based off he was only 6'9 215 lololol ok that's why. That's lighter than KD at center

Lakers + Giants
02-18-2014, 03:21 AM
I see ppl talk **** on melo because he plays no D. But then Why don't people bring up how Russell was detrimental to Boston's offense.

The game is played on both ends, it is not ludicrous to leave russell off the list.

The only locks on basketball's mount rushmore are Jordan and Kareem, the other 2 guys are preference basically.

It can be Russell, Magic, Robertson, Duncan, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Dr J, Hakeem.

mngopher35
02-18-2014, 03:27 AM
I see ppl talk **** on melo because he plays no D. But then Why don't people bring up how Russell was detrimental to Boston's offense.

The game is played on both ends, it is not ludicrous to leave russell off the list.

The only locks on basketball's mount rushmore are Jordan and Kareem, the other 2 guys are preference basically.

It can be Russell, Magic, Robertson, Duncan, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Dr J, Hakeem.

I feel like I agree with most of your posts, not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing to you haha. Either way I agree with this. Kobe said something about this the other night on the all-star game too. No matter who is in your top 4 you are leaving some all-time great players out and there is no right answer. I find it fun to try and sort it all out anyways though.

EDIT: Although I honestly am not sure I would have KAJ as a lock even though I think he has great argument for 2nd best player all time. Jordan might be the only real lock to me.

Lakers + Giants
02-18-2014, 03:34 AM
I feel like I agree with most of your posts, not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing to you haha. Either way I agree with this. Kobe said something about this the other night on the all-star game too. No matter who is in your top 4 you are leaving some all-time great players out and there is no right answer. I find it fun to try and sort it all out anyways though.

Why would it be a bad thing if you agree with me? haha

Say I choose Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird: then basically others see it as me disrespecting Russell, Robertson, Wilt, Dr J etc.

Basically complimenting 4 players is seen as disrespecting the others left off. Wow, what a load of **** haha.

On PSD if you claim KD is the best you are seen as a lebron hater, if you compliment Lebron you are a durant hater.

People/Media like to make a big deal out of nothing.

MickeyMgl
02-18-2014, 03:55 AM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.

???

Really???

How about Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor, Nate Thurmond, Paul Arazin, Jerry Lucas?... to name a few.

Chronz
02-18-2014, 04:18 AM
I see ppl talk **** on melo because he plays no D. But then Why don't people bring up how Russell was detrimental to Boston's offense.
Net difference.

MagicBucsSox
02-18-2014, 04:29 AM
???

Really???

How about Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor, Nate Thurmond, Paul Arazin, Jerry Lucas?... to name a few.
No offense you keep naming white guys, stiff ones at that, their irrelevant in the game today, and chamberlain had no game just size over everyone and no 3 sec calls nor goaltending I beleve

Chronz
02-18-2014, 04:45 AM
Is Kareem relevant (The guy who backs Russell)? His career spans decades and bridges the gap between many of Russells contemporaries and more recent players as well.

COOLbeans
02-18-2014, 05:14 AM
You dont think Hakeem was a better defender? Definitely better offensively. Maybe he couldnt win like Russell but theres no guarantee Russ would in his situation either. What does your top 5-10 look like anyways?

The people who are alive now have seen more of Hakeem..The Dream was the best defender I've ever seen. But I've seen video as you've probably seen, and I heard first hand (during Hakeem's prime) from guys who saw Bill Russell play and they said he's the best they'd ever seen up to that point.

in no order

Jordan
Bird
Wilt
Kareem
Oscar
Lebron
Magic
Shaq
Russell
Hakeem

Master Mind
02-18-2014, 05:20 AM
Damn this feels like deja vu

Master Mind
02-18-2014, 05:26 AM
The people who are alive now have seen more of Hakeem..The Dream was the best defender I've ever seen. But I've seen video as you've probably seen, and I heard first hand (during Hakeem's prime) from guys who saw Bill Russell play and they said he's the best they'd ever seen up to that point.

in order

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Lebron
Bird
Oscar
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem


I took the liberty of putting it in order...:D

slashsnake
02-18-2014, 06:20 AM
I see ppl talk **** on melo because he plays no D. But then Why don't people bring up how Russell was detrimental to Boston's offense.



There's a difference between scoring 15 points a game and being a detriment.

He was a 15 point a game guy for his career, 18 point guy in his prime and would pick it up in the playoffs quite a bit where some years he was a 22 point a game guy there. He also was top 10 in the league 4 times in assists, and retired 7th all time in that category. I wouldn't call him a detriment on offense. Not great, but he'd get you the kind of scoring a normal center would and was a MUCH better offensive passer pick setter, offensive rebounder, etc.

He didn't score a lot, but he played hard on offense and did well enough there. His team had others to pick up the scoring load. Melo's teams have always struggled on defense and he hasn't helped in that regard.

thenaj17
02-18-2014, 07:01 AM
Lebron is playing with 3 HOF now too... and he barely won his last championship...

So someone tell me again how Bill Russell isn't better?

I can't stand LeBron but Russell isn't even close to being as good as LeBron talent-wise. Russell wasn't even the best player in his era, he just had much better teams.

redhorse
02-18-2014, 09:38 AM
And Mr. Russell won these beating notably... Who? Russell would never win a ring in modern time.


watch the documentary on bill russell .. he dealt with much much much worse back then..

and i hate when ppl say these kinda things... u cannot compare players that way....ppl can be so dumb not surprised its mostly heat fans since theyre history of bball started 06 and nothing in btwn then 2010

Ill21
02-18-2014, 10:20 AM
i think russell is a little sour that LeBron left him off his list

ATX
02-18-2014, 10:33 AM
watch the documentary on bill russell .. he dealt with much much much worse back then..

and i hate when ppl say these kinda things... u cannot compare players that way....ppl can be so dumb not surprised its mostly heat fans since theyre history of bball started 06 and nothing in btwn then 2010

Huh? Maybe they weren't winning titles in the 90's, but the Mourning/Hardaway years were formidable squads and were very fun to watch. In 05 the Heat lost to the Pistons in game 7 of the ECF in a game that came down to the wire. They have been a playoff team for most of their history.

smith&wesson
02-18-2014, 11:59 AM
Russell was a great player, but he won his rings when there were 8-14 teams in the NBA while often playing alongside 4+ Hall of Famers. Of COURSE he's going to talk about team success; no one ever was more set up for team success than him. If you think LeBron, Kobe, or whoever had an easy time winning it all now, well, Russell had cake-walks in comparison. His second year in the NBA he was a second team All-NBA player, and THREE of his teammates were first-teamers. Just imagine that. You think Bosh AND Wade is a lot...imagine having three first teamers playing with you in A EIGHT TEAM LEAGUE?!


A great winner, but he's not winning nearly as many rings in a 30 team NBA without 4-5+ HOFers alongside him.


He's always at the top of my most overrated list. It's no slight to him, it's a slight to those who look at his rings and treat them as equal value to winning a ring in the modern day.

It's the attitude to have, but let's not pretend this isn't apples to oranges.

+1

Well said

Master Mind
02-18-2014, 03:11 PM
Huh? Maybe they weren't winning titles in the 90's, but the Mourning/Hardaway years were formidable squads and were very fun to watch. In 05 the Heat lost to the Pistons in game 7 of the ECF in a game that came down to the wire. They have been a playoff team for most of their history.

That guy's a meat head. He tries to burn Heat fans but ethers himself :laugh2:

KnicksorBust
02-18-2014, 04:08 PM
Mount Rushmore seems more of a legacy/impact accomplishment anyway and that screams Bill Russell to me. Love that at 80 years old he is still competitive as hell.

He-MJ-Magic-Bird are on mine.

Bos_Sports4Life
02-18-2014, 04:30 PM
Tell him to post the effect russ had on his team's offense and you'll never get a response

Russell wasn't the reason the Celtics were last or 2nd to last in FG% during 6 title runs..Pretty flawed reasoning imo.

* Russell while he wasn't great offensively played a key part in other ways. Turned his defense into fast breaks, Passed well, Rebounded and was relatively efficient.

* PLENTY of teams have had meh offensive centers in the past, heck the Celtics with perk starting had some VERY efficient teams...Top 3 a few teams IIRC.

Tony_Starks
02-18-2014, 04:33 PM
You can't blast Russel for having no comp but give Lebron a pass for playing in a pathetic conference with only one other potential contender.

Can't have it both ways....

BoSox47
02-18-2014, 04:47 PM
Russell was a great player, but he won his rings when there were 8-14 teams in the NBA while often playing alongside 4+ Hall of Famers. Of COURSE he's going to talk about team success; no one ever was more set up for team success than him. If you think LeBron, Kobe, or whoever had an easy time winning it all now, well, Russell had cake-walks in comparison. His second year in the NBA he was a second team All-NBA player, and THREE of his teammates were first-teamers. Just imagine that. You think Bosh AND Wade is a lot...imagine having three first teamers playing with you in A EIGHT TEAM LEAGUE?!


A great winner, but he's not winning nearly as many rings in a 30 team NBA without 4-5+ HOFers alongside him.


He's always at the top of my most overrated list. It's no slight to him, it's a slight to those who look at his rings and treat them as equal value to winning a ring in the modern day.

It's the attitude to have, but let's not pretend this isn't apples to oranges.

Playing against 8-14. You must realize less teams in the league means each team is likely to have better players because talent relegated to only 8-14 teams rather then 30. Therefore you are playing against better talented players and the weak links are left off the team.

Not only that but russell won back to back Championships in college and two more in high school. Guy won at every level not just playing around HOF's.

beliges
02-18-2014, 04:49 PM
Mount Rushmore seems more of a legacy/impact accomplishment anyway and that screams Bill Russell to me. Love that at 80 years old he is still competitive as hell.

He-MJ-Magic-Bird are on mine.

I do not understand Bird being here as I believe he has been surpassed by three players already (Shaq, Duncan and Kobe). But I certainly still put Bird in my top 10. But I have him at around the 8 mark.

numba1CHANGsta
02-18-2014, 04:56 PM
Why are some of you already putting LeBron ahead of Kobe? last time I checked 5 is greater than 2

Bos_Sports4Life
02-18-2014, 05:01 PM
Russell was a great player, but he won his rings when there were 8-14 teams in the NBA while often playing alongside 4+ Hall of Famers.


Smaller league=Most stars per team...

1955 Celtics..

Cousy- HOF'er.MVP (26 yrs old)
Ed Macauley- HOF'er (26 yrs old)
Bill Sharman- HOF'er (29 yrs old)
Arnie Risen- HOF'er (31 yrs old)

4 HOF'ers (All between 26-31 yrs old) and a 39-33 Record/1st rd KO.

Season before in 1954 They had Cousy (26), Sharman (28), Macauley (26), and Ramsey (23) (ALL Hof'ers) and only went 36-36.

Also...

* During the '62 season, Russell took himself out for 4 games and the Celtics lost 4 straight games even with Red Auerbach, Cousy, Sharman, the Joneses, Ramsey

* Back in '69, Russell took himself out for 5 games because of an injury and the Celtics lost 5 straight even with HoF's Sam Jones, Havlicek, Satch Sanders, and Bailey Howell.

The instances that I mentioned are the two worst losing streaks of the Russell-era Celtics. The latter is the worst losing streak of the Celtics since Red Auerbach took over the helm.

* With Russell? The Celtics won 11 out of 13 titles. Directly after his departure? They MISSED the Playoffs even with HoF's such as Havlicek, Sanders, Jo Jo White and Howell.






Of COURSE he's going to talk about team success; no one ever was more set up for team success than him. If you think LeBron, Kobe, or whoever had an easy time winning it all now, well, Russell had cake-walks in comparison. His second year in the NBA he was a second team All-NBA player, and THREE of his teammates were first-teamers. Just imagine that. You think Bosh AND Wade is a lot...imagine having three first teamers playing with you in A EIGHT TEAM LEAGUE?!

The more concentrated the league is, more stars per team...

ALSO, Russell ALSO won 5 league MVP's and would have racked up DPOY's/Finals MVP's if such awards exsted through out Russells career.



A great winner, but he's not winning nearly as many rings in a 30 team NBA without 4-5+ HOFers alongside him.

What EXACTLY did those teams wth 4 HOF'ers do WITHOUT Russell? They had the 2 longest losing streaks in russells tenure, Missed the playoffs directy after Russell and the 2 seasons prior went a COMBINED 6 games above .500.

Do you want to know what the bulls did when MJ decided to take a yr off? They won 50+ games and were a choke job away in game 7 from the ECF.



He's always at the top of my most overrated list. It's no slight to him, it's a slight to those who look at his rings and treat them as equal value to winning a ring in the modern day.

His rings (11) AND his MVP's....

PurpleLynch
02-18-2014, 05:01 PM
You can't do a Mount Rushmore of Nba players,you must paint the Universal Judgement of Michelangelo to have right numbers(and obviously better art,sorry American fellows).The name fit well too.

randyorton33
02-18-2014, 05:02 PM
Bill Russell is bitter.

randyorton33
02-18-2014, 05:03 PM
Allen Iverson can be on someones Mount Rushmore

B'sCeltsPatsSox
02-18-2014, 05:05 PM
Why are some of you already putting LeBron ahead of Kobe? last time I checked 5 is greater than 2

And 4 is greater than 1 :shrug:

Tony_Starks
02-18-2014, 05:10 PM
Why are some of you already putting LeBron ahead of Kobe? last time I checked 5 is greater than 2

Come on you know they only count 2 of Kobe's rings. Hell some barely even count those. Apparently he's the only great player that needed help to win.....

randyorton33
02-18-2014, 05:24 PM
It isnčt always about rings....

Chronz
02-18-2014, 05:26 PM
Russell wasn't the reason the Celtics were last or 2nd to last in FG% during 6 title runs..Pretty flawed reasoning imo.
Except its the SAME reasoning you used to showcase Russells defensive impact on the Celtics, before and after his addition. Russ was described as being **** offensively by some of Red's scouts, it took him a long while to improve on that end of the court.

* Russell while he wasn't great offensively played a key part in other ways. Turned his defense into fast breaks, Passed well, Rebounded and was relatively efficient.


* PLENTY of teams have had meh offensive centers in the past, heck the Celtics with perk starting had some VERY efficient teams...Top 3 a few teams IIRC.
You recall incorrectly. Fast breaks are fine but he was still an offensive liability at times. You can still argue he had a GOAT level impact, but lets not ignore offense here.

BoSox47
02-18-2014, 05:26 PM
Smaller league=Most stars per team...

1955 Celtics..

Cousy- HOF'er.MVP (26 yrs old)
Ed Macauley- HOF'er (26 yrs old)
Bill Sharman- HOF'er (29 yrs old)
Arnie Risen- HOF'er (31 yrs old)

4 HOF'ers (All between 26-31 yrs old) and a 39-33 Record/1st rd KO.

Season before in 1954 They had Cousy (26), Sharman (28), Macauley (26), and Ramsey (23) (ALL Hof'ers) and only went 36-36.

Also...

* During the '62 season, Russell took himself out for 4 games and the Celtics lost 4 straight games even with Red Auerbach, Cousy, Sharman, the Joneses, Ramsey

* Back in '69, Russell took himself out for 5 games because of an injury and the Celtics lost 5 straight even with HoF's Sam Jones, Havlicek, Satch Sanders, and Bailey Howell.

The instances that I mentioned are the two worst losing streaks of the Russell-era Celtics. The latter is the worst losing streak of the Celtics since Red Auerbach took over the helm.

* With Russell? The Celtics won 11 out of 13 titles. Directly after his departure? They MISSED the Playoffs even with HoF's such as Havlicek, Sanders, Jo Jo White and Howell.







The more concentrated the league is, more stars per team...

ALSO, Russell ALSO won 5 league MVP's and would have racked up DPOY's/Finals MVP's if such awards exsted through out Russells career.




What EXACTLY did those teams wth 4 HOF'ers do WITHOUT Russell? They had the 2 longest losing streaks in russells tenure, Missed the playoffs directy after Russell and the 2 seasons prior went a COMBINED 6 games above .500.

Do you want to know what the bulls did when MJ decided to take a yr off? They won 50+ games and were a choke job away in game 7 from the ECF.




His rings (11) AND his MVP's....

+1

smith&wesson
02-18-2014, 05:32 PM
mj
kareem
magic
shaq
wilt
kobe
bird
hakeem
oscar
duncan

those guys in any order. Bill isnt even in my top 10. lebron will bump one of those guys when its all set and done.

Bos_Sports4Life
02-18-2014, 05:37 PM
Except its the SAME reasoning you used to showcase Russells defensive impact on the Celtics, before and after his addition. Russ was described as being **** offensively by some of Red's scouts, it took him a long while to improve on that end of the court.

In his early yrs Russell took advantage of the weaker centers in the NBA, He actually put up pretty solid numbers while being efficient.


You recall incorrectly. Fast breaks are fine but he was still an offensive liability at times. You can still argue he had a GOAT level impact, but lets not ignore offense here.

People make it sound like he was Kendrick Perkins...

While he wasn't good, he wasn't absolutely god awful with his offense if you include passing/rebounding etc.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-18-2014, 05:55 PM
Not sure if it's been posted yet but I found this quote hilarious. 80 year old man telling Lebron what's up.

"Thank you for leaving me off your Mount Rushmore. Im glad you did. Basketball is a team game. Its not for individual honors. I won back-to-back statechampionships in highschool. Back-to-back NCAAchampionships in college. I won an NBA championship my first year in the league. An NBA championship my last year. 9 in between. And that, Mr. James, is etched in stone."

This was said to Lebron pre all star game.

Bill is a legend, lebron is a wannabe stat padding panzy!

Master Mind
02-18-2014, 06:55 PM
You can't blast Russel for having no comp but give Lebron a pass for playing in a pathetic conference with only one other potential contender.

Can't have it both ways....

:confused:

Are you comparing a career of playing against 8 teams to one season of playing in a 2 horse conference race of a 32 team league?

GrumpyOldMan
02-18-2014, 07:27 PM
I dont see what the big deal is personally. If I'm not mistaken Lebron James was asked who is on his Mount Rushmore of basketball. Of course he is going to name guys he has seen play. I'm actually shocked he put Oscar on his list.
I'm much older and would have a different 4 people on my list as I'm sure most people who post here would. Maybe it's just me, but I dont see this as a big deal at all.

Eagles710
02-18-2014, 07:29 PM
Really Bashing an 11X Champion ? Cmon Guys wake up Smh

amos1er
02-18-2014, 08:51 PM
Bill is a legend, lebron is a wannabe stat padding panzy!

Exactly. While Russell isn't very high up in my top ten, he still had more impact than Lebron ever did in my opinion. If we go by stats as PSD guru's usually do, then Russell isn't even in Lebron's category. Lucky for us, people/experts who actually watch the game and can effectively judge a players overall impact through the eye test can give us more clarity than these paper stats can provide. So, yes Lebron had the better stats by far, but Russell had more impact than James could ever dream and while his Celtics teams were stacked, he still didn't need to leave his team to conspire and form a super team along with two of the best players in his conference and take less money. So while it is debatable on whether Russell does belong in the top part of the top ten (I don't think he does) he has cemented a legacy that is still far above what James has reached IMO.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-18-2014, 09:32 PM
He mad

NBA_Starter
02-18-2014, 11:59 PM
Mr. Russell comes at you but with class if that makes sense.

FlashBolt
02-19-2014, 01:01 AM
Exactly. While Russell isn't very high up in my top ten, he still had more impact than Lebron ever did in my opinion. If we go by stats as PSD guru's usually do, then Russell isn't even in Lebron's category. Lucky for us, people/experts who actually watch the game and can effectively judge a players overall impact through the eye test can give us more clarity than these paper stats can provide. So, yes Lebron had the better stats by far, but Russell had more impact than James could ever dream and while his Celtics teams were stacked, he still didn't need to leave his team to conspire and form a super team along with two of the best players in his conference and take less money. So while it is debatable on whether Russell does belong in the top part of the top ten (I don't think he does) he has cemented a legacy that is still far above what James has reached IMO.

Lol? Eye test? Quit pretending that you lived long enough to watch those days. Unless you're 60...

Kushed
02-19-2014, 01:16 AM
Really Bashing an 11X Champion ? Cmon Guys wake up Smh

lmao would bill russel win 11 rings in todays era???? ABSOLUTELY NOT

some people need to wake up and realize the game evolves, its a different era, there are more teams, there is more talent... he wouldn't be a 7 foot black guy playing against 6'5 white guys lol damn some people just don't get it

Bos_Sports4Life
02-19-2014, 01:44 AM
some people need to wake up and realize the game evolves, its a different era, there are more teams, there is more talent... he wouldn't be a 7 foot black guy playing against 6'5 white guys lol damn some people just don't get it

he was 6'9''- pretty average height for a center in the 60's...

Chronz
02-19-2014, 02:15 AM
he was 6'9''- pretty average height for a center in the 60's...
He was 6"10. 10th time Ive pointed out that fact this week

FlashBolt
02-19-2014, 02:53 AM
Bill Russell would be a poor mean Dwight Howard. Good rebounder/defender, limited scoring ability.

amos1er
02-19-2014, 07:09 PM
Bill Russell would be a poor mean Dwight Howard. Good rebounder/defender, limited scoring ability.

I always thought that Dwight could have been the next Russell. Too bad dude didn't have the heart. In the words of the great Kareem. "Potential has a shelf life." Dwight is done... He will never win a ring.

SwatTeam
02-19-2014, 07:57 PM
There is only one Mt Rushmore. It's George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and Thomas Jefferson.
2 of those dudes owned slaves. 1 of those dudes freed the slaves. The other dude was the original rough rider.

I don't know what my point is but just think about it. Let it sink in. OK carry on.

TimeForAHoliday
02-19-2014, 08:42 PM
Russel is the GOAT winner. He won at all levels.

bagwell368
02-19-2014, 11:51 PM
In his early yrs Russell took advantage of the weaker centers in the NBA, He actually put up pretty solid numbers while being efficient.

Once the 7 footers came in and the lane went to 16 feet, Russell's offense was all done except for passing.


People make it sound like he was Kendrick Perkins...

While he wasn't good, he wasn't absolutely god awful with his offense if you include passing/rebounding etc.

Russell was a below average shooter if you look at his FG+FT% in a league with obscenely low shooting percentages and absolutely no opposition in his first 3 years, and not that much until '64-'65.

Look the man belongs on top 4, but he's standing in for Red the Coach, Red the GM, his great teammates, and himself. Russell drafted by the Pistons and staying there his whole career he has no championships, because he wasn't enough of a difference maker on the scoring end to carry a team like other great players of his time: Wilt, Oscar, West, and Pettit who all did a larger share of their teams work then Bill did for the Celts. The few times those players played on #1 SRS teams they won titles too, Russell's team had a stranglehold on the #1 SRS most years because the league didn't have any convincing teams to battle the Celts but a few years in the mid 60's of the 76'ers and in the late 60's on LAL. Russell is the face of that team. People love to reduce things to a level of simplicity which no longer represents the truth. Russell is the luckiest player in NBA history and he did his best to make sure it worked out. Nobody else ever landed in such clover. He gets on the list of the big 4, but, not without reservations.