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Goose17
02-16-2014, 05:14 PM
Out of curiosity who do you think the top 5 PFs have been so far this season?

I thought this would be easy, then I started to think about it, there's a lot of very solid PFs this year, how much do you put into individual performance vs team performance? I mean the list is pretty good, Love, Davis, Griffin, Dirk, Aldridge, Duncan, Millsap, Ibaka and David Lee are the obvious choices. Cutting that down to 5 feels pretty difficult.

Right now, I'm thinking (but not certain);

1. Anthony Davis
2. Blake Griffin
3. LaMarcus Aldridge
4. Paul Millsap
5. David Lee

(Honorable mention; Tim Duncan, Kevin Love and Dirk)


My list is a combination of factors, some guys are on their for individual talent, some for the way they've carried their team, some made it above others because I prefer the way they play, so that isn't strictly a list of the top 5 as in top 5 individual talent)

PurpleLynch
02-16-2014, 05:22 PM
Davis
Love
Griffin
Aldridge
Millsap

But I'm not sure,I feel like Ibaka should take a spot.

BGeer091
02-16-2014, 05:23 PM
Aldridge
Blake
Duncan
Davis
Love

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 05:25 PM
Love
Davis
Griffin
Nowitzki
Duncan

in no particular order

honorable mention Ibaka, Aldridge, Lee

Heediot
02-16-2014, 05:25 PM
I like your list. Love over Lee though.

Goose17
02-16-2014, 05:33 PM
I like your list. Love over Lee though.

I'm man enough to admit it's a homer vote.

Goose17
02-16-2014, 05:34 PM
Love
Davis
Griffin
Nowitzki
Duncan

in no particular order

honorable mention Ibaka, Aldridge, Lee

I wanted to put Duncan on my list, one of my favourite players of all time. But when it's based solely on this season, I just couldn't do it.

jsthornton7
02-16-2014, 05:44 PM
Anthony Davis is the most intriguing player in the league IMO. Who do you guys think would be the best compliment to him at C?

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 05:45 PM
I wanted to put Duncan on my list, one of my favourite players of all time. But when it's based solely on this season, I just couldn't do it.

the top 3 for me are definitely Love/Davis/Griffin (in no particular order),

after that i could throw darts at the wall to pick from Nowitzki/Duncan/Ibaka/Aldridge/Lee

valade16
02-16-2014, 05:48 PM
Love
Davis
Griffin
Nowitzki
Duncan

in no particular order

honorable mention Ibaka, Aldridge, Lee

Yeah, it's pretty obvious you have a severe bias against LMA. It's proven with literally every post.

Duncan isn't even putting up better stats than LMA and he is playing 8 less minutes per game.

And your biggest knock against Aldridge is his supporting cast is insanely efficient applies to the Spurs as well. Parker, Ginobili, Belinelli, Splitter, Diaw and Mills all shoot as high or higher than the Blazers starting lineup.

You've shown your true colors. You're a LMA hater. Hate on man, but I'll be sure to let everyone know when you want to deny your hate.

Only thing worse than a hater is a hater in denial.

Goose17
02-16-2014, 05:56 PM
Yeah, it's pretty obvious you have a severe bias against LMA. It's proven with literally every post.

Duncan isn't even putting up better stats than LMA and he is playing 8 less minutes per game.

And your biggest knock against Aldridge is his supporting cast is insanely efficient applies to the Spurs as well. Parker, Ginobili, Belinelli, Splitter, Diaw and Mills all shoot as high or higher than the Blazers starting lineup.

You've shown your true colors. You're a LMA hater. Hate on man, but I'll be sure to let everyone know when you want to deny your hate.

Only thing worse than a hater is a hater in denial.

I don't see how he's a hater.



the top 3 for me are definitely Love/Davis/Griffin (in no particular order),

after that i could throw darts at the wall to pick from Nowitzki/Duncan/Ibaka/Aldridge/Lee

He quite literally just said Aldridge could be considered the 4th or 5th best just as easily as Duncan, Nowitzki and Ibaka.

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 05:56 PM
Yeah, it's pretty obvious you have a severe bias against LMA. It's proven with literally every post.

Duncan isn't even putting up better stats than LMA and he is playing 8 less minutes per game.

And your biggest knock against Aldridge is his supporting cast is insanely efficient applies to the Spurs as well. Parker, Ginobili, Belinelli, Splitter, Diaw and Mills all shoot as high or higher than the Blazers starting lineup.

You've shown your true colors. You're a LMA hater. Hate on man, but I'll be sure to let everyone know when you want to deny your hate.

Only thing worse than a hater is a hater in denial.
LOL @ you suggesting him being in my top 8 is being a hater

hater is such a lame term. i dislike chuckers. i don't value raw stats as much as others.

Duncan, despite the fewer mins is still a sublimely intelligent player. I can't pin-point exactly how that manifests itself on the court, but i have no doubt that it does. The opposite of intelligent play is treating the ball like it's on fire and tossing it up at the rim every chance you get regardless of whether it's the best available option. that is what Aldridge is doing this year.

i didn't mind it so much when it was only 16 FGA a game but 20.4, jesus christ.

DallasTrilla23
02-16-2014, 05:57 PM
Aldridge
Griffin
Love
Davis
Dirk

ManRam
02-16-2014, 05:59 PM
This season?

1. Anthony Davis
2. Kevin Love
3. Blake Griffin
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. LaMarcus Aldridge

Ibaka
Duncan
Millsap
Lee

...round out a pretty obvious top 9. The ordering of those last 4 is tough, tho.

valade16
02-16-2014, 06:09 PM
I don't see how he's a hater.

He quite literally just said Aldridge could be considered the 4th or 5th best just as easily as Duncan, Nowitzki and Ibaka.

Anyone who thinks LMA has been on par with Serge Ibaka or David Lee this year is absolutely underrating him.

But let's look at his post history.

Comes in to say LMA is not only not a 2nd tier MVP candidate (we all know MVP is a 2 man race), he's not even an integral part of the Blazers success.

Someone posts an article about LMA and the first thing he does is go in to comment on it that it's unimpressive, not necessary, and irrelevant.

Now on the who has been the Top 5 PFs thus far he leaves LMA off the top 5. Sure he later clarifies 5-8 are basically interchangeable but if that were true, why did he bother to place one above the other?

He clearly doesn't like Aldridge.

valade16
02-16-2014, 06:12 PM
LOL @ you suggesting him being in my top 8 is being a hater

hater is such a lame term. i dislike chuckers. i don't value raw stats as much as others.

Duncan, despite the fewer mins is still a sublimely intelligent player. I can't pin-point exactly how that manifests itself on the court, but i have no doubt that it does. The opposite of intelligent play is treating the ball like it's on fire and tossing it up at the rim every chance you get regardless of whether it's the best available option. that is what Aldridge is doing this year.

i didn't mind it so much when it was only 16 FGA a game but 20.4, jesus christ.

For a guy most consider being in the running for best PF in the game saying he's top 8 is discrediting him yes.

Hey, Stephen Curry, he's good, probably top 8 at his position.

Dwight Howard, he's top 8 centers.

If someone said that you'd probably view it as an insult.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 06:16 PM
Love
Griffin
Davis
Dirk
LMA

in order for me.

Love leads all PF's in ppg, rpg, apg, double doubles, PER, win shares, WS/48, FTA, FTM, 3's made, 3's taken.

Pretty simple #1 for me. The rest are debateable after Griffin at #2.

mightybosstone
02-16-2014, 06:19 PM
I love Davis' game, but I think people are giving the guy WAY too much credit in this thread. Defensively, he's among the best at the position, but he also isn't asked to do nearly as much offensively as some of the other guys in the league, he plays for a bad basketball team, and he continues to miss time to injuries. My list would look something like this:

1. Blake Griffin
2. Kevin Love
3. Anthony Davis
4. LaMarcus Aldridge
5. Dirk Nowitzki

Heediot
02-16-2014, 06:25 PM
I think people are Sleeping on Milsap. The Guy has kept the Hawks a float without Horford. That team looks like a contender for the top pick with the current roster (without Horford) if you asked people at the beginning of the year

NoahH
02-16-2014, 06:28 PM
1. LMA
2. Love
3. Unibrow
4. Blake
5. Big Al
6. Millsap
7. Melo
8. Nowitzki
9. Duncan
10. Bosh
11. David Lee
12. Ibaka
13. Zach Randolph
14. Monroe
15. David West
16. Paul Pierce
17. Henson
18. Boozer
19. Terrence Jones
20. Taj Gibson

ManRam
02-16-2014, 06:35 PM
I love Davis' game, but I think people are giving the guy WAY too much credit in this thread. Defensively, he's among the best at the position, but he also isn't asked to do nearly as much offensively as some of the other guys in the league, he plays for a bad basketball team, and he continues to miss time to injuries. My list would look something like this:


Those other 4 PFs aren't great defensively tho. I don't think overlooking his defensive abilities is justified. His defensive impact is far greater than his competitors here. That's significant. And I don't care that he plays on a bad team. That's not his fault. That doesn't make him any less of a player than what he actually is. Look who he's been playing alongside in the post all year? Nothing. Makes what he's doing more impressive in some ways.


Yes, his offensive load is less than Love and LMA, but not significantly compared to the other guys at all. 15 shots a game. 6.4 FTA a game. A 25% usage? That's not bad. And considering he is a signficantly better defender than those two higher volume offensive guys, well, I don't think there's much that separates them overall.

My heart's not 100% behind ranking AD #1 at all, but I certainly think it's justifiable. Love and BG are the only ones I'd consider tho. Certainly not LMA


The missed games thing is the one thing I did overlook. That does make his season overall a bit less impacting, indeed. But when he has been playing I do think he's been the best overall PF in the game

B'sCeltsPatsSox
02-16-2014, 06:49 PM
Love not even in the top 5?:laugh2:

1. Love
2. Davis
3. Griffin
4. Dirk
5. LMA

chi-townlove1
02-16-2014, 06:59 PM
I love Davis' game, but I think people are giving the guy WAY too much credit in this thread. Defensively, he's among the best at the position, but he also isn't asked to do nearly as much offensively as some of the other guys in the league, he plays for a bad basketball team, and he continues to miss time to injuries. My list would look something like this:

1. Blake Griffin
2. Kevin Love
3. Anthony Davis
4. LaMarcus Aldridge
5. Dirk Nowitzki

Best list that's been made

bholly
02-16-2014, 07:01 PM
No real order, but without thinking about it too much: Love, Bosh, Griffin, Davis, LMA.

Hurts me not to have Dirk and Duncan in there, and I'd like to include Ibaka too, but oh well. I guess maybe I could claim Bosh and Duncan are Cs and move one of Dirk or Ibaka up. Also Melo should be playing at PF, in which case he'd be fighting for a place in the top 5, but Woodson's decided to screw everyone (except the Knicks' opponents) on that one, which is too bad.

ricky recon
02-16-2014, 07:02 PM
1. Kevin Love
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Anthony Davis
4. Blake Grififn
5. LMA

ricky recon
02-16-2014, 07:05 PM
No real order, but without thinking about it too much: Love, Bosh, Griffin, Davis, LMA.

Hurts me not to have Dirk and Duncan in there, and I'd like to include Ibaka too, but oh well. I guess maybe I could claim Bosh and Duncan are Cs and move one of Dirk or Ibaka up. Also Melo should be playing at PF, in which case he'd be fighting for a place in the top 5, but Woodson's decided to screw everyone (except the Knicks' opponents) on that one, which is too bad.

Chris Bosh is nowhere near the level of even a 35 year old Dirk.

ManRam
02-16-2014, 07:09 PM
1. LMA
2. Love
3. Unibrow
4. Blake
5. Big Al
6. Millsap
7. Melo
8. Nowitzki
9. Duncan
10. Bosh
11. David Lee
12. Ibaka
13. Zach Randolph
14. Monroe
15. David West
16. Paul Pierce
17. Henson
18. Boozer
19. Terrence Jones
20. Taj Gibson

Weird list after the top-4 aside, Big Al is not a power forward.



I didn't think to include Bosh myself either, tho. He logs nearly all of his minutes at the "5" this year, much like Al. Granted, it's an unconventional 5, it still is. He'd probably be around 7 or so if I did consider him.

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 07:29 PM
For a guy most consider being in the running for best PF in the game saying he's top 8 is discrediting him yes.

Hey, Stephen Curry, he's good, probably top 8 at his position.

Dwight Howard, he's top 8 centers.

If someone said that you'd probably view it as an insult.

i haven't seen a whole lot of that in here in case you haven't noticed. i am obviously not the only one who isn't buying the whole peripheral MVP thing.

regardless, he's in that group of guys i consider anywhere from 4-9 and i don't consider that to be a crime. he is what he is, a high volume low efficiency scorer along the lines of Al Jefferson with better defense.

bholly
02-16-2014, 07:29 PM
Chris Bosh is nowhere near the level of even a 35 year old Dirk.

Well that's a good bit of information for me to have, thanks, I'm glad we had this little talk.


I didn't think to include Bosh myself either, tho. He logs nearly all of his minutes at the "5" this year, much like Al. Granted, it's an unconventional 5, it still is. He'd probably be around 7 or so if I did consider him.

Yeah I can definitely handle him being on a 5 list, but career 4 who would be a 4 on most teams and plays the way he does is enough to put him at the 4 for me. Easy either way, though.

Walt
02-16-2014, 07:32 PM
1. LaMarcus Aldridge
2. Anthony Davis
3. Kevin Love
4. Blake Griffin
5. Dirk Nowitzki

I think those are the obvious best 5 PF this season. Aldridge should be in everyone's top 3 at the very least. The guy is averaging 11 rebounds per game which is a career high by over 2 rebounds. He is also lighting it up offensively.

Anthony Davis team really sucks but look at what he is doing. He is only 20 and he's already a top 10-15 player in the NBA imo.

Kevin Love has just been killing it this year. His FG% can be really horrible at times but you can't discount those monster games he has nearly every night.

Blake Griffin could arguably be #1 on this list simply by the way he played when Paul went down.

Dirk is 35 but still putting up 21 ppg on nearly 50/40/90 all while leading the Mavs to the 6th seed heading into the All Star break.


Just to extend some love to one of the most underrated players in the NBA, Paul Millsap is #6 on this list. He is one of the ultimate stat stuffers all across the board.

WARRIORS@GR
02-16-2014, 07:37 PM
1.Love
2.Griffin
3.Davis
4.Dirk
5.Aldridge

NYMetros
02-16-2014, 07:50 PM
1. Love
2. Aldridge
3. Griffin
4. Davis
5. Nowitzki

valade16
02-16-2014, 08:03 PM
i haven't seen a whole lot of that in here in case you haven't noticed. i am obviously the only one who isn't buying the whole peripheral MVP thing.

regardless, he's in that group of guys i consider anywhere from 4-9 and i don't consider that to be a crime. he is what he is, a high volume low efficiency scorer along the lines of Al Jefferson with better defense.

Alright. If that's what you think then yes, your hate is strong.

Hate on.

Minimal
02-16-2014, 08:07 PM
1. Love
2. Griffin
3. Davis
4. Dirk
5. Aldridge

ramz.n
02-16-2014, 08:11 PM
lamarcus Aldridge
kevin love
Anthony Davis
Blake Griffin

ManRam
02-16-2014, 08:17 PM
Alright. If that's what you think then yes, your hate is strong.

Hate on.

Its not hate though. You can just say "oh you're hating" and not back up your stance, but that's not gonna sway anyone. Maybe he does hate him, but his point is not incorrect.

The guy takes 21 shots a game to score 24 points. That's not efficient.

He has a TS% under 52% and an eFG% under 47%. That's not efficient.

That's not efficient and there's no way to twist it. Yes, he's a GREAT mid-range scorer and that's a huge asset, but that hasn't led him to tremendous efficiency. Sure, his team has had more success this year.

Kevin Love is averaging 26 points on 18 shots. He's far more efficient too.

Blake scores more points on 4 fewer shots. His percentages **** on LMA's.

And if there's a gap between LMA and those other two defensively it isn't by anything significant. He's not a better rebounder than Love and only marginally better than Blake.



I don't get this notion that LMA is having this great of an offensive season. He went from pretty underrated to incredibly overrated over the span of half a season. We gotta bounce back down to the middle ground, where he's the 4th-6th best PF in the NBA...and not a guy who isn't close to being as good as the league's best but also a guy who most certainly isn't the league's best.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 08:18 PM
from espn:


The conventional wisdom: Anthony Davis is an elite rim protector.
The unconventional stat: 60.4 percent opponent field goal percentage at the rim.


Davis
Undeniably, "The Brow" has taken his game to the next level in his sophomore season with a top-five PER (26.7) and a league-leading 132 blocked shots. Among NBA players, he is a revelation. But for some viewers, this might be a revelation, as well: Opponents shoot better at the rim when he's on the floor than when he's on the bench.

Pulling up the NBA's StatsCube database, we find that the Pelicans allow 60.4 percent shooting in the restricted area with Davis on the floor. With him on the bench? That drops to 57.1 percent. Although that's not all on Davis, he still has some work to do if he wants to approach the level of elite paint landlords such as Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan. And Davis has all the time in the world to do that. He is just 20 years old and well on his way, but he could use some help.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 08:20 PM
Its not hate though. You can just say "oh you're hating" and not back up your stance, but that's not gonna sway anyone. Maybe he does hate him, but his point is not incorrect.

The guy takes 21 shots a game to score 24 points. That's not efficient.

He has a TS% under 52% and an eFG% under 47%. That's not efficient.

That's not efficient and there's no way to twist it. Yes, he's a GREAT mid-range scorer and that's a huge asset, but that hasn't led him to tremendous efficiency. Sure, his team has had more success this year.

Kevin Love is averaging 26 points on 18 shots. He's far more efficient too.

Blake scores more points on 4 fewer shots. His percentages **** on LMA's.

And if there's a gap between LMA and those other two defensively it isn't by anything significant. He's not a better rebounder than Love and only marginally better than Blake.



I don't get this notion that LMA is having this great of an offensive season. He went from pretty underrated to incredibly overrated over the span of half a season. We gotta bounce back down to the middle ground, where he's the 4th-6th best PF in the NBA...and not a guy who isn't close to being as good as the league's best but also a guy who most certainly isn't the league's best.

I think LMA has an argument as a top 5 PF for sure, but he is for sure benefiting from his roster support bumping up his reputation, probably more than any other top PF that is playing. By no measure is he as good as Love, Blake, or Dirk. Davis has an argument too, but when you watch him play, you can see his game is still unrefined, as efficient as he is (that is actually very scary thinking about how much better he can get).

From the same espn article:


The conventional wisdom: LaMarcus Aldridge is a world-class scorer.
The unconventional stat: Below-average 51.5 true shooting percentage.


Aldridge
We'd like to think the basketball audience has become more nuanced in the past 50 years than just blindly trusting points per game. But the buzz surrounding Aldridge's season suggests we have a ways to go. The truth is that his gaudy scoring average of 24.1 points per game overstates his scoring prowess.

Although we don't typically think of big men as high-volume shooters, Aldridge is more Allen Iverson than he is Tim Duncan. He leads the league in field goal attempts (he has 42 more than Kevin Durant in 89 fewer minutes), and his 51.5 percent true shooting percentage -- a shooting efficiency metric that incorporates 3-point shooting and free throws -- ranks 138th among those qualified for the scoring title. Again: 138th. Bottom line: Aldridge is an elite shot-taker, not shot-maker.

WARRIORS@GR
02-16-2014, 08:22 PM
Aldridge has absolotely no argument over Love.Swap them on each others team.Portland is much better.Minny is much worse.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 08:23 PM
Alright. If that's what you think then yes, your hate is strong.

Hate on.

can you show me why he is wrong? I mean, I would take LMA over Jefferson anyday of the week, but by no means is LMA a top 10 player this year in all reality. He does take a lot of shots to get his points, he isn't a great rebounder or defender, and is simply enjoying a roster that has blossomed across the board.

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 08:26 PM
Alright. If that's what you think then yes, your hate is strong.

Hate on.
i don't know what to tell you. the numbers are almost identical if you'd care to look closer.

NoahH
02-16-2014, 08:28 PM
Weird list after the top-4 aside, Big Al is not a power forward.



I didn't think to include Bosh myself either, tho. He logs nearly all of his minutes at the "5" this year, much like Al. Granted, it's an unconventional 5, it still is. He'd probably be around 7 or so if I did consider him.
Yeah my bad.

Al Jefferson has played 75% of his minutes at C and Bosh has played 85% of his minutes at C. Whoops

Sports Illustrator
02-16-2014, 08:31 PM
This is my top 5, in the particular order below:

1. Anthony Davis
2. Kevin Love
3. Blake Griffin
4. LaMarcus Aldridge
5. Dirk Nowitzki

I may be bias on AD, but I do think he deserves to be at least mentioned as the top PF in the league. He is able to do it on both ends of the floor night in and night out. To me, I see AD, Love and Griffin at the top 3 and the rest are debatable I would think.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 08:35 PM
This is my top 5, in the particular order below:

1. Anthony Davis
2. Kevin Love
3. Blake Griffin
4. LaMarcus Aldridge
5. Dirk Nowitzki

I may be bias on AD, but I do think he deserves to be at least mentioned as the top PF in the league. He is able to do it on both ends of the floor night in and night out. To me, I see AD, Love and Griffin at the top 3 and the rest are debatable I would think.

did you read my post above? His team is better protecting the paint with him sitting, and teams hit over 60% at the rim with him on the floor. His defensive reputation is coming straight from his blocks per game, instead of him impact. He has a little ways to go to catch Love, Griffin, and probably even Dirk. But considering how raw his offensive game still is, I would guess he catches and passes both Love and Griffin. Dirk will just get older and fade away.

Walt
02-16-2014, 08:37 PM
Aldridge is not a better player than Dirk and Love, but he is having the best season imo.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 08:41 PM
Aldridge is not a better player than Dirk and Love, but he is having the best season imo.

why? Because his roster is playing far better than either of those guys?

ManRam
02-16-2014, 08:44 PM
did you read my post above? His team is better protecting the paint with him sitting, and teams hit over 60% at the rim with him on the floor. His defensive reputation is coming straight from his blocks per game, instead of him impact. He has a little ways to go to catch Love, Griffin, and probably even Dirk. But considering how raw his offensive game still is, I would guess he catches and passes both Love and Griffin. Dirk will just get older and fade away.

It's by a negligible margin. Maybe it's because it often coincides with the opposing team's best players resting too.

It's one stat, but the synergy numbers, the RAPM+ numbers, and so on all do paint a picture that suggests AD is ahead of these guys, and often by a significant margin.


How's this?

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=FGP_DEFEND_RIM&sortOrder=ASC&filters=GP*GE*35**MIN*GE*30


He's been a solid rim protector. The stat you provided is an interesting stat, but there's a ton of stuff out there that paints a different picture too.

Maybe he isn't who we think he is or who he will eventually be, but these other top-5 guys aren't great defenders. There's still a gap, regardless.

Walt
02-16-2014, 08:45 PM
why? Because his roster is playing far better than either of those guys?

As unfair as it is in a lot of cases, winning is a big part in who is having a better season. Like I said, Love and Dirk are superior to Aldridge and I would take both of them over LA in a draft, but Aldridge is having the best season still imo.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 08:47 PM
As unfair as it is in a lot of cases, winning is a big part in who is having a better season. Like I said, Love and Dirk are superior to Aldridge and I would take both of them over LA in a draft, but Aldridge is having the best season still imo.

I mean, everyone is entitled to their reasoning. But as PF's go, I am taking 4 ahead of LMA off the top of my head.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 08:48 PM
It's by a negligible margin. Maybe it's because it often coincides with the opposing team's best players resting too.

It's one stat, but the synergy numbers, the RAPM+ numbers, and so on all do paint a picture that suggests AD is ahead of these guys, and often by a significant margin.


How's this?

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=FGP_DEFEND_RIM&sortOrder=ASC&filters=GP*GE*35**MIN*GE*30


He's been a solid rim protector. The stat you provided is an interesting stat, but there's a ton of stuff out there that paints a different picture too.

Maybe he isn't who we think he is or who he will eventually be, but these other top-5 guys aren't great defenders. There's still a gap, regardless.

My simple point was, many are giving Davis the benefit of being an elite defender, when that isn't the case. And he is so far behind Love or Griffin, and even Dirk, when it comes to scoring the ball (watch him play, he is so unrefined), I just can't justify him as the top PF right now. In 3 years? I can't see anyone in his way.

valade16
02-16-2014, 08:58 PM
Its not hate though. You can just say "oh you're hating" and not back up your stance, but that's not gonna sway anyone. Maybe he does hate him, but his point is not incorrect.

The guy takes 21 shots a game to score 24 points. That's not efficient.

He has a TS% under 52% and an eFG% under 47%. That's not efficient.

That's not efficient and there's no way to twist it. Yes, he's a GREAT mid-range scorer and that's a huge asset, but that hasn't led him to tremendous efficiency. Sure, his team has had more success this year.

And if there's a gap between LMA and those other two defensively it isn't by anything significant. He's not a better rebounder than Love and only marginally better than Blake.


can you show me why he is wrong? I mean, I would take LMA over Jefferson anyday of the week, but by no means is LMA a top 10 player this year in all reality. He does take a lot of shots to get his points, he isn't a great rebounder or defender, and is simply enjoying a roster that has blossomed across the board.


i don't know what to tell you. the numbers are almost identical if you'd care to look closer.

The problem is everyone wants to focus on his bad TS% and act like this is who he's been his entire career. It is not. The previous 3 seasons before this one his TS% is .545. That is far from bad.

Another thing is nobody wants to talk about the career highs he's putting up in TRB%, AST% and TO%. His USG% is also at a career high (29.3%) which is partly responsible for his dip in scoring efficiency.

Another thing that people like to say is his increased exposure is because his supporting cast are all having career years, but the problem is he's upped his overall play just as much as pretty much any one of them:

PER Increase from last season to this season:
LMA: +2.0
Lillard: +2.5
Lopez: -1.9
Matthews: +2.3
Batum: -0.1

It's not like everyone else upped their game and LMA stayed the same. LMA increased his overall game just like everyone else.

The bottom line is everybody wants to rag on him for his shooting % but don't to acknowledge his all around game on the court as well as his defense and all the intangible benefits he brings.

Since when did scoring efficiency become the only thing that matters?

Which team would win?

PG:Goran Dragic
SG: Marco Belinelli
SF: Kyle Korver
PF: Boris Diaw
C: DeAndre Jordan

or

PG: John Wall
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Carmelo Anthony
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge
C: Roy Hibbert

According to you the first team should win because everyone on that team shoots a higher TS% than their counterpart. The problem is, there is so much more that goes into basketball than just TS%, and you're essentially saying let's ignore everything else when it comes to evaluating LMA.

Luckily virtually everyone who actually works as a talent evaluator or scout disagrees with your ridiculous assertion that LMA = Al Jefferson.

So if you have a problem with my saying you're wrong, you should probably take it up with everyone who has ever played or evaluated basketball.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 09:00 PM
The problem is everyone wants to focus on his bad TS% and act like this is who he's been his entire career. It is not. The previous 3 seasons before this one his TS% is .545. That is far from bad.

Another thing is nobody wants to talk about the career highs he's putting up in TRB%, AST% and TO%. His USG% is also at a career high (29.3%) which is partly responsible for his dip in scoring efficiency.

Another thing that people like to say is his increased exposure is because his supporting cast are all having career years, but the problem is he's upped his overall play just as much as pretty much any one of them:

PER Increase from last season to this season:
LMA: +2.0
Lillard: +2.5
Lopez: -1.9
Matthews: +2.3
Batum: -0.1

It's not like everyone else upped their game and LMA stayed the same. LMA increased his overall game just like everyone else.

The bottom line is everybody wants to rag on him for his shooting % but don't to acknowledge his all around game on the court as well as his defense and all the intangible benefits he brings.

Since when did scoring efficiency become the only thing that matters?

Which team would win?

PG:Goran Dragic
SG: Marco Belinelli
SF: Kyle Korver
PF: Boris Diaw
C: DeAndre Jordan

or

PG: John Wall
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Carmelo Anthony
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge
C: Roy Hibbert

According to you the first team should win because everyone on that team shoots a higher TS% than their counterpart. The problem is, there is so much more that goes into basketball than just TS%, and you're essentially saying let's ignore everything else when it comes to evaluating LMA.

Luckily virtually everyone who actually works as a talent evaluator or scout disagrees with your ridiculous assertion that LMA = Al Jefferson.

So if you have a problem with my saying you're wrong, you should probably take it up with everyone who has ever played or evaluated basketball.

I get all that. But Love and Griffin are blowing him away efficiency wise, and Dirk is still better. I can accept a LMA over Davis, but Love and Griffin are clearly better players this year.

Show me the rise in scoring efficiency for Portlands players. I would be interested to see that.

And you continue to push different level of players down our throat with your TS% argument. Players need to be on the same level to start picking apart stats. Why the hell would we measure Korver versus Melo?

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 09:02 PM
The problem is everyone wants to focus on his bad TS% and act like this is who he's been his entire career. It is not. The previous 3 seasons before this one his TS% is .545. That is far from bad.

Another thing is nobody wants to talk about the career highs he's putting up in TRB%, AST% and TO%. His USG% is also at a career high (29.3%) which is partly responsible for his dip in scoring efficiency.

Another thing that people like to say is his increased exposure is because his supporting cast are all having career years, but the problem is he's upped his overall play just as much as pretty much any one of them:

PER Increase from last season to this season:
LMA: +2.0
Lillard: +2.5
Lopez: -1.9
Matthews: +2.3
Batum: -0.1

It's not like everyone else upped their game and LMA stayed the same. LMA increased his overall game just like everyone else.

The bottom line is everybody wants to rag on him for his shooting % but don't to acknowledge his all around game on the court as well as his defense and all the intangible benefits he brings.

Since when did scoring efficiency become the only thing that matters?

Which team would win?

PG:Goran Dragic
SG: Marco Belinelli
SF: Kyle Korver
PF: Boris Diaw
C: DeAndre Jordan

or

PG: John Wall
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Carmelo Anthony
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge
C: Roy Hibbert

According to you the first team should win because everyone on that team shoots a higher TS% than their counterpart. The problem is, there is so much more that goes into basketball than just TS%, and you're essentially saying let's ignore everything else when it comes to evaluating LMA.

Luckily virtually everyone who actually works as a talent evaluator or scout disagrees with your ridiculous assertion that LMA = Al Jefferson.

So if you have a problem with my saying you're wrong, you should probably take it up with everyone who has ever played or evaluated basketball.

sigh. i literally said none of those things you are crediting me with.

i said Aldridge was basically Jefferson with better defense and that's not crazy by any stretch of the imagination.

further, you should know that his increase in PER is largely because of the increase in scoring, which is entirely due to the increase in low efficiency shots. not a great argument but you'd need to understand the numbers to know that.

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 09:07 PM
The problem is everyone wants to focus on his bad TS% and act like this is who he's been his entire career. It is not. The previous 3 seasons before this one his TS% is .545. That is far from bad.

Luckily virtually everyone who actually works as a talent evaluator or scout disagrees with your ridiculous assertion that LMA = Al Jefferson.


that's really great, btw. you've missed the whole point. player rankings should be about value added. yes, his efficiency before this year was middling (yay!) but it's god awful this season. you don't get extra credit for producing more when it comes at the expense of the team. that's how i view it at least.

Aldridge career TS% - .534
Jefferson career TS% - .529

worlds apart. stylistically they may not be identical but their overall offensive production and efficiency is basically spot on. same assist numbers too when you look at them per 36 mins.

ManRam
02-16-2014, 09:11 PM
sigh. i literally said none of those things you are crediting me with.

i said Aldridge was basically Jefferson with better defense and that's not crazy by any stretch of the imagination.

further, you should know that his increase in PER is largely because of the increase in scoring, which is entirely due to the increase in low efficiency shots. not a great argument but you'd need to understand the numbers to know that.

I've been making the Aldridge/Jefferson comps for a few weeks now too. LMA is better, sure, but I'm beginning to understand less and less what separates them. A lot of it is due to their respective teams (one has a ton off offensive help, the other does not) I watch the Cats twice the last 10 days, he really is impressing me (for once). Hell, Charlotte's defense has been great this year, how certain are we that Jefferson's impact (I know he's a notoriously awful defender) hasn't improved?

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 09:36 PM
I've been making the Aldridge/Jefferson comps for a few weeks now too. LMA is better, sure, but I'm beginning to understand less and less what separates them. A lot of it is due to their respective teams (one has a ton off offensive help, the other does not) I watch the Cats twice the last 10 days, he really is impressing me (for once). Hell, Charlotte's defense has been great this year, how certain are we that Jefferson's impact (I know he's a notoriously awful defender) hasn't improved?
i agree. draft position and the teams they've played for i'd say account for the gap between perception and reality on this one.

Aldridge, 2nd overall pick, plays for much better teams

Jefferson, picked middle of the first round, plays for poor teams and gets label of chucker (isn't that the way it always is? score a lot for a crappy team and you are a chucker. score a lot for a good team and no one looks too close at the efficiency)

lol, please
02-16-2014, 09:40 PM
Out of curiosity who do you think the top 5 PFs have been so far this season?

I thought this would be easy, then I started to think about it, there's a lot of very solid PFs this year, how much do you put into individual performance vs team performance? I mean the list is pretty good, Love, Davis, Griffin, Dirk, Aldridge, Duncan, Millsap, Ibaka and David Lee are the obvious choices. Cutting that down to 5 feels pretty difficult.

Right now, I'm thinking (but not certain);

1. Anthony Davis
2. Blake Griffin
3. LaMarcus Aldridge
4. Paul Millsap
5. David Lee

(Honorable mention; Tim Duncan, Kevin Love and Dirk)


My list is a combination of factors, some guys are on their for individual talent, some for the way they've carried their team, some made it above others because I prefer the way they play, so that isn't strictly a list of the top 5 as in top 5 individual talent)

Davis
Love
Aldridge
Lee
Griffin

/thread

Chronz
02-16-2014, 09:48 PM
The brow has gotten overrated defensively

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 09:52 PM
^ he has, but you knew this was going to happen. had he not been known as a major game changer defensively coming in people wouldn't be so quick to credit him with being a great defender as a pro.

valade16
02-16-2014, 09:54 PM
sigh. i literally said none of those things you are crediting me with.

i said Aldridge was basically Jefferson with better defense and that's not crazy by any stretch of the imagination.

further, you should know that his increase in PER is largely because of the increase in scoring, which is entirely due to the increase in low efficiency shots. not a great argument but you'd need to understand the numbers to know that.

Yeah I'm sure his career highs in TRB%, AST%, and TO% had nothing to do with his increase in PER :rolleyes:

And maybe that's the difference between us. You understand numbers and I understand Basketball.

Do you think ANY NBA GM would take Jefferson over LMA? Why is that? Perception? Do you have some insight that every person who has ever watched or evaluated Basketball doesn't have that they are all wrong in saying LMA is better than Jefferson?

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 09:56 PM
Yeah I'm sure his career highs in TRB%, AST%, and TO% had nothing to do with his increase in PER :rolleyes:
the rebounding will be a portion of it, the rest would be as close to insignificant as you can get.


Do you think ANY NBA GM would take Jefferson over LMA? Why is that? Perception? Do you have some insight that every person who has ever watched or evaluated Basketball doesn't have that they are all wrong in saying LMA is better than Jefferson?

i'd take Aldridge over Jefferson too :shrug:

perhaps you should come back when you are capable of reading clearly what i have said because you seem to lose your **** every time i say "Aldridge is basically Jefferson" before you get to the part that says "...with better defense".

valade16
02-16-2014, 10:00 PM
i'd take Aldridge over Jefferson too :shrug:

My point is they are not even on the same level.

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 10:03 PM
My point is they are not even on the same level.

no - they are not. because defense is a big part of the game. perhaps if you didn't have steam coming out of your ears you would have caught the part where i said Aldridge is a better defender like 5 times now. by a mile on that end, by the way. but i specifically said offensively.

ricky recon
02-16-2014, 10:10 PM
There is no PF that is a better half-court offensive player than Dirk.

mrblisterdundee
02-16-2014, 10:16 PM
1. LaMarcus Aldridge
2. Kevin Love
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Anthony Davis
5. Blake Griffin

valade16
02-16-2014, 11:02 PM
no - they are not. because defense is a big part of the game. perhaps if you didn't have steam coming out of your ears you would have caught the part where i said Aldridge is a better defender like 5 times now. by a mile on that end, by the way. but i specifically said offensively.

Perhaps it is the nonchalance with which you throw in (at the last possible second might I add) the defensive part.

Nonetheless, go search all your posts about LMA and find me one in which you actually praise him (outside of that very last one which is likely your first).

I mean, they had a thread on LMAs personal growth and you went in there and the first thing you did was try to trivialize it! If you are as level headed as you claim about LMA, this should be a trivial exercise in finding spme praise you have said about LMA.

valade16
02-16-2014, 11:07 PM
Could anyone here see the Blazers trading LMA for David Lee, Serge Ibaka or Al Jefferson?

Could anyone see any of those teams turning that offer down if the Blazers offered LMA for them?

What is that attributed to? Perception?

Vinny642
02-16-2014, 11:15 PM
Love
AD
Blake
LMA
Dirk

Kyben36
02-16-2014, 11:38 PM
Davis ( best in terms of all around, good on both ends)
Love ( slightly above Griffin
Griffin
Aldridge
5th is a hard debate, dirk, Lee, Duncan, ibaka, could all be argued for.

JEDean89
02-16-2014, 11:40 PM
Anthony Davis is the most intriguing player in the league IMO. Who do you guys think would be the best compliment to him at C?

demarcus cousins

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 11:45 PM
The brow has gotten overrated defensively

that is what blocks and steals do

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 11:47 PM
Perhaps it is the nonchalance with which you throw in (at the last possible second might I add) the defensive part.

Nonetheless, go search all your posts about LMA and find me one in which you actually praise him (outside of that very last one which is likely your first).

there. wasn't very difficult to find either.


Lillard/Matthews/Batum/Lopez constitute the most efficient foursome in the league offensively. that combined with tremendous health and a very good (but not great) Aldridge.


thing is, if he's a great player this year, then he's always been a great player because the only difference this year is the number of shots. i don't believe that to be the case. he's a pretty good player IMO. an outstanding defender who loses a fair bit of offensive value in my eyes by being extremely inefficient.

valade16
02-16-2014, 11:50 PM
there. wasn't very difficult to find either.

Fair enough.

LanceUpperCut
02-16-2014, 11:53 PM
I'd say

Love
Griffen


LMA
Dirk
Davis

ManRam
02-17-2014, 12:11 AM
He may be overrated merely because of his potential and people assuming he already is what they think he will be, but he's been solid.

When guarding the rim, the only big men doing better are Hibbert, Robin Lopez, Ibaka and Noah hold opposing teams to a lower FG%. We can thank SportsVU data for that tidbit.

He's allowing just .81 PPP this season. Not quite absolutely elite, but quite better than the guys we're comparing him too.


There has undoubtedly been a lack of challenges at the rim, despite the numbers above, but many around the team are attributing it to Monty William's schemes. There's article after article out there by insiders and bloggers about this. He has his big men hedge hard on p&r's far more than most any other team. This draws them away from the hoop. It's been failing miserably and the team, because of it, is one of the worst at guarding the p&r. The team has him doing a lot of weird stuff and the belief is that it comes from the coaching and system, not choice. Maybe it gets overblown, but I have a hard time pinning much of that team's defensive woes on him.


Here's a solid read on that. http://www.hickory-high.com/?p=11747

Overrated? Probably. But I maintain that compared to Aldridge, Griffin, Love and Dirk, he's already considerably ahead of all of them on that side of the ball.

I think I regret putting him at #1...I'd probably go with Love. But I've been on this "people ignore defense too much" kick, and maybe got carried away. But undoubtedly he is a more impacting player than LMA and Dirk. Maybe not Love and Blake...

yet.

bucketss
02-17-2014, 12:12 AM
blake
love
davis
aldridge
dirk

mrblisterdundee
02-17-2014, 12:28 AM
that is what blocks and steals do

That is what playing on a mediocre team with no other front court/defensive presence does. Davis wouldn't get nearly the amount of blocks if his team had a real center, even a guy like Brook Lopez.

Vinny642
02-17-2014, 12:34 AM
That is what playing on a mediocre team with no other front court/defensive presence does. Davis wouldn't get nearly the amount of blocks if his team had a real center, even a guy like Brook Lopez.

The hate is real

Kyben36
02-17-2014, 12:34 AM
That is what playing on a mediocre team with no other front court/defensive presence does. Davis wouldn't get nearly the amount of blocks if his team had a real center, even a guy like Brook Lopez.

what ???, blocks are one of the few stats that really wont change dependant on who you have next to you, LOL.

Sadds The Gr8
02-17-2014, 12:44 AM
Davis
Griffin
Love
Aldridge
Dirk

Kaner
02-17-2014, 12:49 AM
in order

Love
Davis
Griffin
LMA
Dirk

Davis and Love are really close for me and I fully expect Davis to pass him after this season.

Kaner
02-17-2014, 12:53 AM
Could anyone here see the Blazers trading LMA for David Lee, Serge Ibaka or Al Jefferson?

Could anyone see any of those teams turning that offer down if the Blazers offered LMA for them?

What is that attributed to? Perception?

OKC wouldn't do Ibaka for Aldridge they're both the better fit for their respective team.

Sadds The Gr8
02-17-2014, 12:59 AM
Agree with manram. Even if Davis is overrated defensively, he's still much better than griffin and love there.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2014, 01:04 AM
That is what playing on a mediocre team with no other front court/defensive presence does. Davis wouldn't get nearly the amount of blocks if his team had a real center, even a guy like Brook Lopez.

false. If you put him on the Heat or Thunder, he is still blocking shots. Doesn't mean he is an elite defensive player..

Hawkeye15
02-17-2014, 01:04 AM
Agree with manram. Even if Davis is overrated defensively, he's still much better than griffin and love there.

and they are far better offensively..

Sadds The Gr8
02-17-2014, 01:08 AM
and they are far better offensively..

I think the difference between them on defense is bigger than theirs on O.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2014, 01:15 AM
I think the difference between them on defense is bigger than theirs on O.

not really. Davis is completely overrated defensively. I believe I posted the facts earlier.

For the next year, would you really take Davis over Love or Blake?

Sadds The Gr8
02-17-2014, 01:21 AM
not really. Davis is completely overrated defensively. I believe I posted the facts earlier.

For the next year, would you really take Davis over Love or Blake?

Maybe he is overrated on d but he's still much better on that end than the others.

The raptors lack length so I'd probably take Davis for the next year. If his team didn't get killed with injuries they'd probably be hovering around that 8 spot

Walt
02-17-2014, 02:44 AM
On no planet is David Lee better than Dirk. Not in the past, not this year, period..

This is really a 5 man race with Love, Davis, Dirk, Aldridge and Griffin.


When you get into the next tire that includes Duncan, Lee, Millsap, Ibaka, etc..., those guys are really solid but haven't carried their teams like those 5 have.

basch152
02-17-2014, 03:28 AM
Its funny how many elite PFs there are, but like no elite centers.

I don't think there is a single center in the nba right now that would make any non-idiots top 10 centers of all time. Drummond MIGHT get there, but right now no one.

FraziersKnicks
02-17-2014, 11:11 AM
In order:

Kevin Love
Blake Griffin
Anthony Davis
LaMarcus Aldridge
Dirk Nowitzki

Jarvo
02-17-2014, 11:58 AM
LMA still getting slept on in here lol

LMA
Davis
Love
Blake
Duncan/ Milsap

NBAfan3532
02-17-2014, 12:22 PM
Blake has been the best power forward imo

ManRam
02-17-2014, 12:24 PM
First, I'm switching my top-3 to

Love
Davis
Griffin




Could anyone here see the Blazers trading LMA for David Lee, Serge Ibaka or Al Jefferson?

Could anyone see any of those teams turning that offer down if the Blazers offered LMA for them?

What is that attributed to? Perception?

I think Portland would be wise to trade him for Serge, and I think OKC shoots that down. Lee and Al? Nah, no reason to. But Serge? Yeah, they'd be better with him than LMA IMO.

Why? Defense. The Blazers suck at it. Serge has a great mid range shot much like Aldridge. There'd be a dropoff offensively but the gains defensively would probably be huge. Ibaka long has been overvalued as a defender (ironically for all the reasons Hawkeye is bringing up for Davis...mainly blocked shots not equating to great rim protecting all the time), but this year he truly has taken a step forward.


not really. Davis is completely overrated defensively. I believe I posted the facts earlier.

For the next year, would you really take Davis over Love or Blake?

You posted one stat.

Sure, he is overrated. Many are fine conceding that. Doesn't mean he's still not considerably better than his peers here.


Offensively there is a gap, and it probably does overcome the defense gap, at least in Love's case. But Davis is no slouch. His TS% and eFG% are right there with BG and Love. His PER is right there with those guys. The volume isn't quote as high and that's the main difference, but we're not talking by huge levels here, especially with Griffin. Blake's taking 1.7 more shots per 36 minutes than Davis. Love and BG have identical usages, and Davis is about 3.5% lower there. That's a gap, for sure. Not a wicked one.

Overall, Davis scores 1.04 PPP. He's very weak in spot-up situations and while posting up, at times, but for the most part he's pretty solid. His PPP is identical to Griffin's and only .01 less than Love's.

The plus/minus and VORP data:

Davis: 4.31 ASPM (2.48 offense, 1.83 defense)
Love: 5.52 ASPM (4.92 offense, 0.61 defense)
Griffin: 3.44 ASPN (2.99 offense, 0.44 defense)

Davis: OVORP 3.07, DVORP 0.96
Love: OVORP 5.52, DVORP 0.26
Girffin: OVORP 4.2, DVORP 0.15

Love's offense does make up the gap Davis has defensively. But that defensive gap is there and it is significant. Griffin's offense probably doesn't make up the defensive gap.


Aldridge has a 3.02 ASPM, a 4.12 OVORP (Lillard has a 4.53, Wes has a 3.99, FYI) and a DVORP of -0.03 (AKA terrible)

Dirk has a 3.33 ASPM.


League leaders, just for fun

Paul 8.73
Durant 8.57
Curry 6.60
James 6.53
Love 5.52
George 5.46
Westbrook 4.68
Lowry 4.43
Davis 4.31


Just rambling. Pardon the tangents.

ChiSox219
02-17-2014, 12:30 PM
Anthony Davis is the best PF in the game but Blake Griffin would be my PF MVP.

nycericanguy
02-17-2014, 12:39 PM
Yea I'm not an advanced stats junkie, but LMA shoots a TON to get his points. I don't get all the hype around him. He's basically JR smith in a PF's body.

A PF big man that shoots 46%? Now that could be excusable if he shot 3's like Melo or Love... but this is a guy that literally NEVER shoots 3's and despite playing 37mpg only gets to the ft line 5x.

He's stepped up his rebounding but other than that I don't get the hype. People say how inefficient Melo is but he's scoring over 27ppg on about the same amount of shots that LMA takes... only LMA gets less than 24ppg.

POR is having a great season as a TEAM. Batum, Lilliard, Wes, Lopez... that's a nice cast he has around him. He's a nice piece, but I think POR would be damn good without him as well.

Jamiecballer
02-17-2014, 01:01 PM
LMA still getting slept on in here lol

LMA
Davis
Love
Blake
Duncan/ Milsap

what elevates Aldridge above Davis, Love, or Blake?

Jamiecballer
02-17-2014, 01:02 PM
Yea I'm not an advanced stats junkie, but LMA shoots a TON to get his points. I don't get all the hype around him. He's basically JR smith in a PF's body.

A PF big man that shoots 46%? Now that could be excusable if he shot 3's like Melo or Love... but this is a guy that literally NEVER shoots 3's and despite playing 37mpg only gets to the ft line 5x.

He's stepped up his rebounding but other than that I don't get the hype. People say how inefficient Melo is but he's scoring over 27ppg on about the same amount of shots that LMA takes... only LMA gets less than 24ppg.

POR is having a great season as a TEAM. Batum, Lilliard, Wes, Lopez... that's a nice cast he has around him. He's a nice piece, but I think POR would be damn good without him as well.

i knew it. eventually we had to see eye to eye on something. exactly my take as well. :cheers:

nycericanguy
02-17-2014, 01:19 PM
i knew it. eventually we had to see eye to eye on something. exactly my take as well. :cheers:

well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...:eyebrow:

Jamiecballer
02-17-2014, 01:28 PM
well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...:eyebrow:

LOL.

true. Novak has barely gotten any burn in TO. we've also been very healthy so we will see if that ever changes.

nycericanguy
02-17-2014, 01:32 PM
LOL.

true. Novak has barely gotten any burn in TO. we've also been very healthy so we will see if that ever changes.

though in fairness we've been just as awful without bargs too... It's just been a disaster season all around. But my hopes were that his 3 point shot would return to his career norm, it didn't, he's simply not a good 3pt shooter anymore.

Jamiecballer
02-17-2014, 01:34 PM
though in fairness we've been just as awful without bargs too... It's just been a disaster season all around. But my hopes were that his 3 point shot would return to his career norm, it didn't, he's simply not a good 3pt shooter anymore.
it went from nice and feathery when he entered the league to flat as he bulked up.

Tony_Starks
02-17-2014, 07:49 PM
Aldridge
Griffin
Davis
Dirk
Duncan

bholly
02-17-2014, 08:26 PM
though in fairness we've been just as awful without bargs too... It's just been a disaster season all around. But my hopes were that his 3 point shot would return to his career norm, it didn't, he's simply not a good 3pt shooter anymore.

That's not even close to true. They're -5 points per 100 possessions with him on court and +1.1 with him off. It sounds crazy that one guy could have so much impact, but with an average player replacing Bargs they could've been a winning team. Not as good as last year probably, but above .500 would've been well within reach.