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View Full Version : How did Dumars make the HOF



Jamiecballer
02-13-2014, 04:12 PM
his numbers are a wee bit underwhelming.

his peak appears to have lasted about 4 years. during which time he averaged:

17.8 ppg
5.3 apg
2.6 rpg
1.0 spg
0.1 bpg

his shooting efficiency was pretty strong as he regularly had a true shooting percentage around .550 but that total amount of output seems extremely low for a HOF player. his career PER of 15 is also shockingly low.

was he an incredible defender? or is he basically carried into the HOF because of the 2 titles?

abe_froman
02-13-2014, 04:15 PM
he is/was one of the best defense guards of all time and was the number 2 guy on title teams

also,your 4 year peak average is wrong

ppg-21
apg-4.5
rpg-2.2

Pierzynski4Prez
02-13-2014, 04:16 PM
His skills as a GM.

Jamiecballer
02-13-2014, 04:21 PM
he is/was one of the best defense guards of all time and was the number 2 guy on title teams

also,your 4 year peak average is wrong

ppg-21
apg-4.5
rpg-2.2

obviously we are counting different years. doesn't make much of a difference though does it? if this is the old 'rings are king' philosophy it looks pretty silly as time passes IMO.

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 04:36 PM
he was an all time defender, defensive leader of a top 3 defense for 3 finals runs, and the #2 guy on 2 titles teams, and a great team for many years.

Remember as well, the Basketball HOF is a lot easier to make than the NFL, or MLB.

Shammyguy3
02-13-2014, 04:38 PM
Dumars' peak years were between 91/94 = 21/2.0/4.5; 114 ORtg 55.1ts% 0.127 WS/48 24.0usg%

Jamiecballer
02-13-2014, 04:43 PM
he was an all time defender, defensive leader of a top 3 defense for 3 finals runs, and the #2 guy on 2 titles teams, and a great team for many years.

Remember as well, the Basketball HOF is a lot easier to make than the NFL, or MLB.

that is definitely true.

are we limiting our evaluation of all-time defender to just man to man defense? having a large amount of steals doesn't make you a great defender but he has a surprisingly low total and he was non-existent on the defensive glass. just interested in your opinion on those things.

abe_froman
02-13-2014, 04:47 PM
are we limiting our evaluation of all-time defender to just man to man defense? having a large amount of steals doesn't make you a great defender but he has a surprisingly low total and he was non-existent on the defensive glass. just interested in your opinion on those things.

defense doesnt always show up in the stats sheet,its something you really have to see to gauge

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 04:49 PM
that is definitely true.

are we limiting our evaluation of all-time defender to just man to man defense? having a large amount of steals doesn't make you a great defender but he has a surprisingly low total and he was non-existent on the defensive glass. just interested in your opinion on those things.

I watched him play a lot, and the dude was great at the point of attack, strong enough to bother even MJ, was very good at understanding how to keep players out of the paint, and rarely gambled. He had great rebounders underneath, and I believe Daly liked to keep his guards on the perimeter in case of leak out rebounds, to prevent open shots. One on one, he was one of the best defenders I have seen.

He also had nice offensive production in the immediate years following his 2 title runs.

And yeah, I have to keep pointing out, the Basketball HOF lets in anyone eventually. I mean, there was an outcry over Reggie Miller not making it right away, and when you look at his career, if you compared him to an NFL or MLB player, he is nowhere near HOF material. But he will get in.

mightybosstone
02-13-2014, 04:49 PM
Other guys have already said it, but you could look up anybody's list of the greatest perimeter defenders of all-time and you'll almost certainly see Joe Dumars' name toward the top. Throw that in with a guy who was consistently a solid, relatively efficient scoring option and the second best player on back-to-back championships, and the guy had a Hall-of-Fame worthy resume. He was also named the 89 Finals MVP, which certainly doesn't hurt.

Chronz
02-13-2014, 04:55 PM
defense doesnt always show up in the stats sheet,its something you really have to see to gauge
I always thought he was overrated defensively, maybe biased from seeing how little he impacted it after the title years.

mightybosstone
02-13-2014, 04:57 PM
I watched him play a lot, and the dude was great at the point of attack, strong enough to bother even MJ, was very good at understanding how to keep players out of the paint, and rarely gambled. He had great rebounders underneath, and I believe Daly liked to keep his guards on the perimeter in case of leak out rebounds, to prevent open shots. One on one, he was one of the best defenders I have seen.

He also had nice offensive production in the immediate years following his 2 title runs.

And yeah, I have to keep pointing out, the Basketball HOF lets in anyone eventually. I mean, there was an outcry over Reggie Miller not making it right away, and when you look at his career, if you compared him to an NFL or MLB player, he is nowhere near HOF material. But he will get in.

It's really odd to me that basketball has so many fewer athletes than football and baseball, yet has such lower standards for its Hall of Fame. Part of me wants to think it's because basketball players are just more accessible since they're not covered in gear, but that's also the case in baseball. I've come to the conclusion that I think it makes sense to have more players in the Basketball Hall of Fame for two reasons:

1. The Basketball Hall of Fame also takes college play and international play into consideration.

2. An individual basketball player just means more to a team than a single player does in another team sport. You take away a .300 hitter or a 20-game-winning pitcher away from a great baseball team and that isn't going to suddenly make them horrible. You take away a team's best or second best basketball player, and that team will fall in the playoff seedings in a heartbeat. The only comparison I can think of to another team sport is probably the QB in football, but that's also why that position gets so much more attention than the other positions and why there are so many more of them in the NFL Hall of Fame.

Bruno
02-13-2014, 04:59 PM
finals MVP doesn't hurt.

PhillyFaninLA
02-13-2014, 05:00 PM
his numbers are a wee bit underwhelming.

his peak appears to have lasted about 4 years. during which time he averaged:

17.8 ppg
5.3 apg
2.6 rpg
1.0 spg
0.1 bpg

his shooting efficiency was pretty strong as he regularly had a true shooting percentage around .550 but that total amount of output seems extremely low for a HOF player. his career PER of 15 is also shockingly low.

was he an incredible defender? or is he basically carried into the HOF because of the 2 titles?


The eye test beats the stat test every time.

Don't you stats or titles to say this guy is worthy or not, use them to support.

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 05:00 PM
I always thought he was overrated defensively, maybe biased from seeing how little he impacted it after the title years.

correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Dumars need to take on more of an offensive load in 91? In fact, you could say that his defensive efficiency sort of suffered as he became a bigger part of the offense. By 93, the team was getting older, so the team defense was declining. Rodman gone by 94, etc, etc.

Daly was gone after 92 as well.

Just thinking about it now. Because there was a difference in his defense prior to the post title years.

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 05:03 PM
It's really odd to me that basketball has so many fewer athletes than football and baseball, yet has such lower standards for its Hall of Fame. Part of me wants to think it's because basketball players are just more accessible since they're not covered in gear, but that's also the case in baseball. I've come to the conclusion that I think it makes sense to have more players in the Basketball Hall of Fame for two reasons:

1. The Basketball Hall of Fame also takes college play and international play into consideration.

2. An individual basketball player just means more to a team than a single player does in another team sport. You take away a .300 hitter or a 20-game-winning pitcher away from a great baseball team and that isn't going to suddenly make them horrible. You take away a team's best or second best basketball player, and that team will fall in the playoff seedings in a heartbeat. The only comparison I can think of to another team sport is probably the QB in football, but that's also why that position gets so much more attention than the other positions and why there are so many more of them in the NFL Hall of Fame.

While I agree with much of point #2, your first point is a big one. It's the BASKETBALL HOF, where as the other 2 big ones are for their specific leagues only.

And yes, individuals in basketball impact that game far more than any other sport. LeBron can make any team great for example. You put a Cy Young winner on a crappy team, or Miguel Cabrera on a crappy team, they are still crappy. Same with football.

abe_froman
02-13-2014, 05:05 PM
I always thought he was overrated defensively, maybe biased from seeing how little he impacted it after the title years.

he had to take on much more ,focusing more on offense and getting old

abe_froman
02-13-2014, 05:08 PM
It's really odd to me that basketball has so many fewer athletes than football and baseball, yet has such lower standards for its Hall of Fame. Part of me wants to think it's because basketball players are just more accessible since they're not covered in gear, but that's also the case in baseball. I've come to the conclusion that I think it makes sense to have more players in the Basketball Hall of Fame for two reasons:

1. The Basketball Hall of Fame also takes college play and international play into consideration.

2. An individual basketball player just means more to a team than a single player does in another team sport. You take away a .300 hitter or a 20-game-winning pitcher away from a great baseball team and that isn't going to suddenly make them horrible. You take away a team's best or second best basketball player, and that team will fall in the playoff seedings in a heartbeat. The only comparison I can think of to another team sport is probably the QB in football, but that's also why that position gets so much more attention than the other positions and why there are so many more of them in the NFL Hall of Fame.
agree with one and 2,but the reason for why the lower bar has a lot to do with being the youngest league.when you dont have the long history of the other leagues,to create a history,to fill up a hof in order to justify having one, you have lower the standards

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 05:11 PM
agree with one and 2,but the reason for why the lower bar has a lot to do with being the youngest league.when you dont have the long history of the other leagues,to create a history,to fill up a hof in order to justify having one, you have lower the standards

have you ever been to the Basketball HOF? They have an ABA section, hell, even a street legends section. I mean, Earl Manigult made it.

abe_froman
02-13-2014, 05:20 PM
have you ever been to the Basketball HOF? They have an ABA section, hell, even a street legends section. I mean, Earl Manigult made it.

exactly my point.basketball(and the nba specifically) has very little history when compared to the others,you have to allow aba sectoion,you need a street section,you need a lower standard than the other halls, or else the hof would be the size of my bathroom.it turns the hof into a joke ,but i get their thinking in allowing everyone worth noting in

mightybosstone
02-13-2014, 05:31 PM
While I agree with much of point #2, your first point is a big one. It's the BASKETBALL HOF, where as the other 2 big ones are for their specific leagues only.
Well, this is the obvious one that almost everybody knows. I pretty much had to mention it, and it's certainly the reason why a lot of players and coaches are in the league that otherwise would not be. But for a guy like Dumars, I think the second reason makes more sense. A player of his caliber in the NFL or MLB would not be in the Hall of Fame.

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 06:10 PM
exactly my point.basketball(and the nba specifically) has very little history when compared to the others,you have to allow aba sectoion,you need a street section,you need a lower standard than the other halls, or else the hof would be the size of my bathroom.it turns the hof into a joke ,but i get their thinking in allowing everyone worth noting in

sure, it just means when we have a discussion regarding said player and the Basketball HOF, it can't be looked at with the same scrutiny as when we talk about the other 2.

Jamiecballer
02-13-2014, 06:15 PM
I watched him play a lot, and the dude was great at the point of attack, strong enough to bother even MJ, was very good at understanding how to keep players out of the paint, and rarely gambled. He had great rebounders underneath, and I believe Daly liked to keep his guards on the perimeter in case of leak out rebounds, to prevent open shots. One on one, he was one of the best defenders I have seen.

He also had nice offensive production in the immediate years following his 2 title runs.

And yeah, I have to keep pointing out, the Basketball HOF lets in anyone eventually. I mean, there was an outcry over Reggie Miller not making it right away, and when you look at his career, if you compared him to an NFL or MLB player, he is nowhere near HOF material. But he will get in.


Other guys have already said it, but you could look up anybody's list of the greatest perimeter defenders of all-time and you'll almost certainly see Joe Dumars' name toward the top. Throw that in with a guy who was consistently a solid, relatively efficient scoring option and the second best player on back-to-back championships, and the guy had a Hall-of-Fame worthy resume. He was also named the 89 Finals MVP, which certainly doesn't hurt.

thanks for the input guys. my recollection of Dumar's is hazy because i wasn't a huge fan NBA until Toronto got a team in '95. up until then it was basically watching basketball double headers every sunday and that was dominated by Michael and the Bulls.

i do remember Michael at one point saying Dumars was the toughest defender he had to play against but i wasn't certain that should be taken at face value or not because the Pistons were literally that obstacle in Michaels way to a championship so i'm sure the respect level would have been high either way.

if Dumars lands in another city do you guys think he still winds up in the hall?

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 06:37 PM
thanks for the input guys. my recollection of Dumar's is hazy because i wasn't a huge fan NBA until Toronto got a team in '95. up until then it was basically watching basketball double headers every sunday and that was dominated by Michael and the Bulls.

i do remember Michael at one point saying Dumars was the toughest defender he had to play against but i wasn't certain that should be taken at face value or not because the Pistons were literally that obstacle in Michaels way to a championship so i'm sure the respect level would have been high either way.

if Dumars lands in another city do you guys think he still winds up in the hall?

Probably not, unless it was another defensive minded, elite team. But, who knows. Maybe he would have been a slightly different type of player had he not been a Daly guy.

slashsnake
02-13-2014, 06:47 PM
Great points. 11th all time in NCAA scoring. Throw in his NBA career (6 all star years, 1 finals MVP, 3 championships (1 as an executive), 4 times all defensive teams, NBA exec of the year, and supposedly called a great sportsman by his peers (I think they named the award after him). I think that's pretty deserving for his all around career.

nickdymez
02-13-2014, 06:48 PM
Ok i understand now. On this site all that matters is numbers. I get it.

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 06:49 PM
Great points. 11th all time in NCAA scoring. Throw in his NBA career (6 all star years, 1 finals MVP, 3 championships (1 as an executive), 4 times all defensive teams, NBA exec of the year, and supposedly called a great sportsman by his peers (I think they named the award after him). I think that's pretty deserving for his all around career.

for sure. His induction came in 2006, after he led Detroit to a title and won Executive of the Year. Add to it his NCAA numbers, and he actually is a shoe-in.

DreamShaker
02-13-2014, 06:58 PM
I watched him play a lot, and the dude was great at the point of attack, strong enough to bother even MJ, was very good at understanding how to keep players out of the paint, and rarely gambled. He had great rebounders underneath, and I believe Daly liked to keep his guards on the perimeter in case of leak out rebounds, to prevent open shots. One on one, he was one of the best defenders I have seen.

He also had nice offensive production in the immediate years following his 2 title runs.

And yeah, I have to keep pointing out, the Basketball HOF lets in anyone eventually. I mean, there was an outcry over Reggie Miller not making it right away, and when you look at his career, if you compared him to an NFL or MLB player, he is nowhere near HOF material. But he will get in.

Reggie got in 2 or 3 years ago...

Chronz
02-13-2014, 07:00 PM
Ok i understand now. On this site all that matters is numbers. I get it.

If that were true, Rodman would have been in the HOF a long time ago

Chronz
02-13-2014, 07:02 PM
he had to take on much more ,focusing more on offense and getting old

Guess I just wasnt that impressed with the results in that role, I mean, how much of an impact can your defense make if middling production is more important for your team? May I add, he "led" quite a few bad teams in his career. Still worthy of the HOF because you have lesser players in there but thats not saying much.

TheMightyHumph
02-13-2014, 07:42 PM
if Dumars lands in another city do you guys think he still winds up in the hall?

Don't know if Joe has a HOF career, but Isiah would not be as highly thought of as a player as he (Isiah) is.

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 07:48 PM
Reggie got in 2 or 3 years ago...

I know, and I was sort of in the minority when he didn't get in first ballot. His career in the NFL or MLB would never be worthy.

JasonJohnHorn
02-13-2014, 07:48 PM
One of the best defenders at the guard position goes against Michael Jordan for four straight seasons in the playoffs and comes out on top 3 of four times, win two championships as the second option and earns a Finals MVP and you want to know how he got into the HOF?

I don't even know how to answer that.

Hawkeye15
02-13-2014, 07:49 PM
Guess I just wasnt that impressed with the results in that role, I mean, how much of an impact can your defense make if middling production is more important for your team? May I add, he "led" quite a few bad teams in his career. Still worthy of the HOF because you have lesser players in there but thats not saying much.

remember too, he had huge numbers in college, and success as a GM. Those factored in for sure.

JasonJohnHorn
02-13-2014, 07:54 PM
finals MVP doesn't hurt.

Love your sig!

It was a good day

Jamiecballer
02-13-2014, 10:51 PM
Guess I just wasnt that impressed with the results in that role, I mean, how much of an impact can your defense make if middling production is more important for your team? May I add, he "led" quite a few bad teams in his career. Still worthy of the HOF because you have lesser players in there but thats not saying much.

i'm sort of with you on this one. i've heard the rep defensively but the numbers to me are so underwhelming that i feel pretty certain he never gets in were it not for the titles. raw numbers are certainly not everything but it's got to be pretty rare to have a HOF player who doesn't have a single particularly impressive box score stat of one kind or another.

Jamiecballer
02-13-2014, 10:56 PM
One of the best defenders at the guard position goes against Michael Jordan for four straight seasons in the playoffs and comes out on top 3 of four times, win two championships as the second option and earns a Finals MVP and you want to know how he got into the HOF?

I don't even know how to answer that.

so he benefited a great deal from circumstances not directly under his control?

b@llhog24
02-13-2014, 10:56 PM
FMVP and defense.

Drummond#1
02-13-2014, 11:25 PM
One of the best defenders at the guard position goes against Michael Jordan for four straight seasons in the playoffs and comes out on top 3 of four times, win two championships as the second option and earns a Finals MVP and you want to know how he got into the HOF?

I don't even know how to answer that.

This. Also, there are a number of others that are less-deserving.

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 12:19 AM
This. Also, there are a number of others that are less-deserving.

well, that there may very well be.

but i still think the case is weak if it hinges greatly on circumstance as opposed to production. i mean, switch Dumars with Richmond and now Richmond is in the HOF, IMO.

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 08:20 PM
Don't know if Joe has a HOF career, but Isiah would not be as highly thought of as a player as he (Isiah) is.

actually looking at both of them i have no idea how either got in. seems to me that Chuck Daly and the rest of those Piston teams did not get near enough credit and Dumars and Thomas got way too much.

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:04 PM
you guys have to remember, players like Zeke and Dumars are getting credit for things outside their NBA playing days. Thomas was an NCAA Final Four MVP, and NCAA Champion, and even coached an NBA all star game. Dumars is 11th all time in NCAA Scoring, has a Championship as a GM, and won Executive of the Year.

THESE count. It's not the NBA Hall of Fame, where only their pro play matters. It's why Manu Ginoboli or Pau Gasol are shoe-ins for the hall too.

Players like Christian Laettner will get more from their college success, and he made the Hall of Fame.

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 09:09 PM
you guys have to remember, players like Zeke and Dumars are getting credit for things outside their NBA playing days. Thomas was an NCAA Final Four MVP, and NCAA Champion, and even coached an NBA all star game. Dumars is 11th all time in NCAA Scoring, has a Championship as a GM, and won Executive of the Year.

THESE count. It's not the NBA Hall of Fame, where only their pro play matters. It's why Manu Ginoboli or Pau Gasol are shoe-ins for the hall too.

Players like Christian Laettner will get more from their college success, and he made the Hall of Fame.
****, seriously? did not know that.

sunsfan88
02-14-2014, 09:12 PM
His basketball knowledge and GM ability certainly had nothing to do with it, I'll tell you that.

abe_froman
02-14-2014, 09:14 PM
actually looking at both of them i have no idea how either got in. seems to me that Chuck Daly and the rest of those Piston teams did not get near enough credit and Dumars and Thomas got way too much.

i get the wondering about dumars as he isnt great,just good who got lucky.but seriously?! you really have no idea how thomas got in? 12x all star,several all nba awards,finals mvp,lead two teams to championships,top 5 all time in apg

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 09:19 PM
i get the wondering about dumars as he isnt great,just really good who got lucky.but seriously?! you really have no idea how thomas got in? 12x all star,several all nba awards,finals mvp,lead two teams to championships,top 5 all time in apg

no, i get what you mean. i just wonder how many of those accolades he would receive in he played in this era. there is a lot more scrutiny of every players flaws and the advanced stats do not paint a pretty picture at all. the raw totals are impressive but 9.2 assist per game loses a ****-ton of it's lustre with a whopping 3.7 turnovers per game.

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:20 PM
****, seriously? did not know that.

because he might be the greatest post Alcindor college basketball player to play, and won a gold on the Dream Team too.

2 NCAA champion (1991–1992)
NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (1991)
Naismith College Player of the Year (1992)
John R. Wooden Award (1992)
USBWA Player of the Year (1992)
Adolph Rupp Trophy (1992)
NABC Player of the Year (1992)
AP College Player of the Year (1992)
Sporting News College Player of the Year (1992)
ACC Player of the Year (1992)
2 ACC Athlete of the Year (1991–1992)
Consensus first team All-American (1992)
Consensus second team All-American (1991)

Again, anytime you come across someone you question, look them up. I guarantee you their college/international/NBA front office/coaching had something to do with it.

I do find it interesting to see what happens with all these new generation players. The great NBA players have minimal to none NCAA credentials, and the players with great NCAA credentials almost never amount to anything in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:21 PM
i get the wondering about dumars as he isnt great,just really good who got lucky.but seriously?! you really have no idea how thomas got in? 12x all star,several all nba awards,finals mvp,lead two teams to championships,top 5 all time in apg

plus 11th in all time NCAA scoring, NBA Executive of the Year, GM of a Championship team..

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 09:24 PM
because he might be the greatest post Alcindor college basketball player to play, and won a gold on the Dream Team too.

2 NCAA champion (1991–1992)
NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (1991)
Naismith College Player of the Year (1992)
John R. Wooden Award (1992)
USBWA Player of the Year (1992)
Adolph Rupp Trophy (1992)
NABC Player of the Year (1992)
AP College Player of the Year (1992)
Sporting News College Player of the Year (1992)
ACC Player of the Year (1992)
2 ACC Athlete of the Year (1991–1992)
Consensus first team All-American (1992)
Consensus second team All-American (1991)

Again, anytime you come across someone you question, look them up. I guarantee you their college/international/NBA front office/coaching had something to do with it.

I do find it interesting to see what happens with all these new generation players. The great NBA players have minimal to none NCAA credentials, and the players with great NCAA credentials almost never amount to anything in the NBA.

i generally use basketballreference and they didn't have Laettner designated as a HOF on his page

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 09:26 PM
i don't see the point in considering those other things either. i mean, if you are a legendary NBA coach you should be in as a coach. but if you killed in what is basically the basketball version of the minors they should have a separate hall for that.

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:26 PM
i generally use basketballreference and they didn't have Laettner designated as a HOF on his page

you know what, I think he is in the College Basketball HOF. I am very surprised he is not in the Basketball HOF with his college/Olympic success. His NBA career was very underwhelming however.

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:26 PM
i don't see the point in considering those other things either. i mean, if you are a legendary NBA coach you should be in as a coach. but if you killed in what is basically the basketball version of the minors they should have a separate hall for that.

they do. But it's the Basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame. Could be because as abe pointed out, the history is too short to have much of a Hall if you select only NBA players from the last 50 years.

abe_froman
02-14-2014, 09:27 PM
no, i get what you mean. i just wonder how many of those accolades he would receive in he played in this era. there is a lot more scrutiny of every players flaws and the advanced stats do not paint a pretty picture at all. the raw totals are impressive but 9.2 assist per game loses a ****-ton of it's lustre with a whopping 3.7 turnovers per game.
you have to keep in mind it was a different era,less efficient era.it was different game,much more of a bruising,physical bigmans game.there was no rules to protect the star guards/wings,like if you come with 5ft of kd,he goes to the line.so the advanced stats arent going favor them if you take without the context of era adjustment.you have to judge it like nfl qbs(as the passing is more inflated now then back then)

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:27 PM
you know what, I think he is in the College Basketball HOF. I am very surprised he is not in the Basketball HOF with his college/Olympic success. His NBA career was very underwhelming however.

yep, just verified. College Basketball HOF. You feel better jamie haha?

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:28 PM
you have to keep in mind it was a different era,less efficient era,scoring wise.it was different game,much more of a bruising,physical bigmans game.there was no rules to protect the star guards,if you come with 5ft of kd,he goes to the line.you have to judge it like nfl qbs(as the passing is more inflated now then back then)

can you imagine if Durant or Kevin Martin tried their "rip-thru" in 1990? The refs would probably look at each other, and kick him out of the game for being such a nancy.

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 09:30 PM
yep, just verified. College Basketball HOF. You feel better jamie haha?

no. i can't sleep at night knowing the lines are so blurred. :)

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 09:32 PM
you have to keep in mind it was a different era,less efficient era.it was different game,much more of a bruising,physical bigmans game.there was no rules to protect the star guards/wings,like if you come with 5ft of kd,he goes to the line.so the advanced stats arent going favor them if you take without the context of era adjustment.you have to judge it like nfl qbs(as the passing is more inflated now then back then)

ok. that's an excellent point. the turnovers seemed startlingly high to me but that is viewed through the lens of what is considered good/bad today. very good point.

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:33 PM
ok. that's an excellent point. the turnovers seemed startlingly high to me but that is viewed through the lens of what is considered good/bad today. very good point.

I remember watching Alvin Robertson, a steal master, and once he gained the reputation of being a good defender, he would just grap the ball handlers arm and throw it to the side, and grab the ball. Clean steal...

abe_froman
02-14-2014, 09:39 PM
can you imagine if Durant or Kevin Martin tried their "rip-thru" in 1990? The refs would probably look at each other, and kick him out of the game for being such a nancy.
:laugh: so true.i was thinking about that today when reading another thread about if drexler v. wade,like wade would have died if he had to go through what he did

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:40 PM
i was thinking about that today when reading another thread about if drexler v. wade,like wade would have died if he had to go through what he did

meh, not so sure. A lot more contact was allowed on the perimeter, and hard fouls were part of the game, but the lane was wide open back then. Wade would have been just fine.

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 09:40 PM
I remember watching Alvin Robertson, a steal master, and once he gained the reputation of being a good defender, he would just grap the ball handlers arm and throw it to the side, and grab the ball. Clean steal...

hmmmm... honest question being thrown out there, but if turnovers were so high back then wouldn't that mean steal totals were inflated, thus bringing me back to why Dumars steals are sort of low for someone with such a sterling defensive rep?

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:42 PM
hmmmm... honest question being thrown out there, but if turnovers were so high back then wouldn't that mean steal totals were inflated, thus bringing me back to why Dumars steals are sort of low for someone with such a sterling defensive rep?

oh he wasn't a gambler though. He had monster thick thighs, and liked to play up and physical. Daly's defense had awesome interior defenders. He didn't want his guards gambling for steals, he simply wanted them to funnel players into bad situations, ala Thibs strategy. Also, the Pistons were like 25-28th in pace, so his opportunities weren't there.

I will say, after Daly left in 94', Dumars defense did take a sudden drop, as his offense had grown. Overall lessening his impact imo.

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 09:43 PM
holy christ Magic Johnson averaged 4 turnovers a game. objection withdrawn :)

Hawkeye15
02-14-2014, 09:45 PM
holy christ Magic Johnson averaged 4 turnovers a game. objection withdrawn :)

remember, they were the "Showtime" Lakers, playing at a very high pace though.

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 10:31 PM
remember, they were the "Showtime" Lakers, playing at a very high pace though.
still, if John Stockton was averaging almost 4 a game in the early portion of his career, i'm sold.

KnicksorBust
02-14-2014, 10:33 PM
he was an all time defender, defensive leader of a top 3 defense for 3 finals runs, and the #2 guy on 2 titles teams, and a great team for many years.

Remember as well, the Basketball HOF is a lot easier to make than the NFL, or MLB.

I actually think the comment at the end is a huge cop out. The initial response to me should clearly be enough to warrant induction.

Jamiecballer
02-14-2014, 10:46 PM
I actually think the comment at the end is a huge cop out. The initial response to me should clearly be enough to warrant induction.

i don't. only one of those statements reflects entirely on him - "he was an all-time defender".

MonroeFAN
02-14-2014, 10:48 PM
His skills as a GM.

Joe D Championships while being GM = 1

Whatever his name Championships while being GM = 0

Lot's of dazzle dazzle coming from your end, but nothing worth it's weight. For his many short comings, he has that to fall back on all day.

JasonJohnHorn
02-15-2014, 09:27 AM
so he benefited a great deal from circumstances not directly under his control?

So did Magic. And Bird. And Kobe. An Russell.

Dumars was lucky to be in a good situation, and he rose to the occasion. Guys like George Gervin were better players and not as lucky. When guys capitalize on their good fortune, they deserve recognition.


Barkley was in a much better situation in Phoenix and Houston and didn't capitalize. You going to throw him out of the HOF for that?

JasonJohnHorn
02-15-2014, 09:36 AM
His basketball knowledge and GM ability certainly had nothing to do with it, I'll tell you that.

You can't count the number of current GMs who put together championship teams on one hand. Dumars is on that list.

Pat Riley (not hard to think: Oh, I'll put the three best players in the west on one team and win)
Mitch K: (thanks Jerry West for handing me the keys to a dynasty)
Buford: (Thanks Greg Pop, for handing me the keys to a dynasty)
Ainge: (thank god Seattle and Minny were having a fire sale)
Don Nelson Jr.
Joe Dumars


No, I say this polemically. Riley made some great moves and deserves credit for what he's done, but he is also very lucky. Ainge did a lot of work to pull those trades off and deserves credit as well, and Buford had been excellent in the draft.

The only guys who really built the team from scratch though are Dumars and Jr. And Dumars had to let players walk because the owner didn't want to shell out the cash (namely Okur and Ben). Dumars has made mistakes, but he is also the only current GM in a small market to build a champion out of nothing. He had a franchise player walk out on him the year he took over and turned that into a perennial contender.


He deserves some credit.

Jamiecballer
02-15-2014, 09:39 AM
So did Magic. And Bird. And Kobe. An Russell.
true. which is why i believe HOF candidacy should be 99% based on regular season play, which is anywhere from 90-100% of a players overall play.

Magic would still be in. Bird would still be in. Kobe would still be in. Russell would still be in. Dumars probably would not.

Dumars was lucky to be in a good situation, and he rose to the occasion. Guys like George Gervin were better players and not as lucky. When guys capitalize on their good fortune, they deserve recognition.
what do you think the trophy presentation is? or the the right to call yourself a champion is? or the ring that is yours to keep for all time, etc, etc?

i also imagine somewhere in that HOF there is an area dedicated to recognizing the yearly champions.


Barkley was in a much better situation in Phoenix and Houston and didn't capitalize. You going to throw him out of the HOF for that?
you've obviously missed my entire stance on this if you think that is the case.

JasonJohnHorn
02-15-2014, 09:40 AM
hmmmm... honest question being thrown out there, but if turnovers were so high back then wouldn't that mean steal totals were inflated, thus bringing me back to why Dumars steals are sort of low for someone with such a sterling defensive rep?


Getting steals doesn't equal good defense any more than not getting steals means bad defense.

Allen Iverson got a lot of steals and he was AWFUL on defense. For every steal he got, that same player got around hi 3 times and had a clear path to the basket because Iverson gambles. Plus he gave up a lot in size.

Good defense is getting your guy to put up a bad shot with the shot clock winding down, and not putting him on the line and getting his FG% down or forcing him to pass the ball, or stopping him from getting the ball in his comfort zones, or keeping him below his average, or forcing him to take more shots than normal to get to his average. You can totally shut a guy out of the game and not get a single steal.

bagwell368
02-15-2014, 09:41 AM
The eye test beats the stat test every time.

Only if the eyes and the mind behind it understand the game well, something that's sometimes in short supply around here.

Dumars is as/more qualified than most of these guys: Goodrich, DJ, Isiah, Monroe, Wilkes. Dumars is IMO a low tier member of the HOF.

Jamiecballer
02-15-2014, 09:44 AM
Getting steals doesn't equal good defense any more than not getting steals means bad defense.

Allen Iverson got a lot of steals and he was AWFUL on defense. For every steal he got, that same player got around hi 3 times and had a clear path to the basket because Iverson gambles. Plus he gave up a lot in size.

Good defense is getting your guy to put up a bad shot with the shot clock winding down, and not putting him on the line and getting his FG% down or forcing him to pass the ball, or stopping him from getting the ball in his comfort zones, or keeping him below his average, or forcing him to take more shots than normal to get to his average. You can totally shut a guy out of the game and not get a single steal.

i know, and i acknowledged as much in a previous post. i just wondered why if turnovers were rampant back then why a guy with such great defensive awareness didn't end up with a few more that's all.

NoahH
02-15-2014, 12:38 PM
he was an all time defender, defensive leader of a top 3 defense for 3 finals runs, and the #2 guy on 2 titles teams, and a great team for many years.

Remember as well, the Basketball HOF is a lot easier to make than the NFL, or MLB.

I've heard that. Why is it like that?

DTownSkitzo
02-15-2014, 01:29 PM
Michael Jordan admitted that nobody could guard him like Joe Dumars could. That holds a lot of weight.

Jamiecballer
02-15-2014, 01:32 PM
Michael Jordan admitted that nobody could guard him like Joe Dumars could. That holds a lot of weight.
i remember hearing that too and have wondered if that helped. not sure it should, but definitely wonder if it did.

zn23
02-15-2014, 01:42 PM
One of the most overrated players in history.

Hawkeye15
02-15-2014, 06:36 PM
I actually think the comment at the end is a huge cop out. The initial response to me should clearly be enough to warrant induction.

it's still true. And besides, as noted by myself and others, Dumar's NCAA play, and FO success also pushed him in easily. Only in the Basketball HOF do they take into account college, professional, international, coaching, and managing all in one for an individual.

Hawkeye15
02-15-2014, 06:39 PM
I've heard that. Why is it like that?

Most likely, its because for the MLB, we have well over 100 years of history, so the selection process has become very strict, on top of a MLB team having 10 more players per team. For the NFL, there are SO many players, you have to limit the number going in. The NBA is a younger league, with nowhere near the amount of players as the other 2 leagues, so its simply a numbers game. Couple that with the fact that the Basketball HOF also uses collegiate play, international play, and sideline contributions all in one. Much easier to get into the Basketball HOF.

AddiX
02-15-2014, 07:07 PM
I can see how at the time it made sense to let him in, but looking back, he probably shouldnt.

Good thread OP, rare to see original threads that don't lead to bait traps. I've never really considered this topic.

Shlumpledink
02-15-2014, 07:19 PM
He was great laterally in terms of defense. He was undersized, but played on strong defensive teams. His defensive reputation is high though, which is why he is a hall of famer.

Hawkeye15
02-15-2014, 07:20 PM
He was great laterally in terms of defense. He was undersized, but played on strong defensive teams. His defensive reputation is high though, which is why he is a hall of famer.

he may have only been 6'4", but he had thick legs, and a strong upper body. He used his strength against longer 2's.

JasonJohnHorn
02-15-2014, 07:56 PM
All I have to say is that any player who is good enough to force Michael Jordan to reinvent his offensive game, has to be pretty fawking good.

Chronz
02-16-2014, 02:48 AM
he may have only been 6'4", but he had thick legs, and a strong upper body. He used his strength against longer 2's.
I doubt he was 6"4 . Got any links

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 03:00 AM
I doubt he was 6"4 . Got any links

that is where he was listed, but you have a good point. He was probably closer to 6'2"

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 01:10 PM
this is why i think the criteria is messed up and that it should be a more exclusive club.

Dwyane Wade has been a pretty damn good defender in his career hasn't he? Is there any question that if Dwyane Wade ever put up a season statistically equal to Dumars BEST season that he'd basically retire as soon as the season was over?

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 03:17 PM
this is why i think the criteria is messed up and that it should be a more exclusive club.

Dwyane Wade has been a pretty damn good defender in his career hasn't he? Is there any question that if Dwyane Wade ever put up a season statistically equal to Dumars BEST season that he'd basically retire as soon as the season was over?

well it wouldn't be an attractive place to visit if there were not many names in it. As abe pointed out, the sport is much newer than the MLB.

Now account for this. In any given year, there are 750 roster spots in the MLB (with 120 years of history), and over 1,500 in the NFL. There are around 450 in the NBA. Those two leagues can be more selective, they actually have to be.

DTownSkitzo
02-16-2014, 03:35 PM
that is where he was listed, but you have a good point. He was probably closer to 6'2"

He looked big next to Zeke, haha. Isn't it amazing how such a small backcourt was able to be that good defensively? I know it was a full team defense, but how many smaller players could match up in the backcourt in NBA history and be able to play the defense Zeke and Joe played together?

Now I realize the front court helped out a lot, but I still think it's pretty amazing.

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 03:47 PM
All I have to say is that any player who is good enough to force Michael Jordan to reinvent his offensive game, has to be pretty fawking good.

can you explain what you mean in a little more detail? i am not familiar with this.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 03:55 PM
can you explain what you mean in a little more detail? i am not familiar with this.

He is giving too much credit to Dumars. The Pistons forced Jordan to get tougher, both physically and mentally. They also forced him to develop more of an outside game, because driving on the Pistons was going to hurt.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2014, 03:56 PM
He looked big next to Zeke, haha. Isn't it amazing how such a small backcourt was able to be that good defensively? I know it was a full team defense, but how many smaller players could match up in the backcourt in NBA history and be able to play the defense Zeke and Joe played together?

Now I realize the front court helped out a lot, but I still think it's pretty amazing.

you hit it though. They were allowed to get right up in your ****, because they had Laimbeer, Rodman, Mahorn, Edwards, and Salley behind them.

I saw Zeke up close once. He was around 6'. Not sure what he was listed as.

Jamiecballer
02-16-2014, 04:39 PM
He is giving too much credit to Dumars. The Pistons forced Jordan to get tougher, both physically and mentally. They also forced him to develop more of an outside game, because driving on the Pistons was going to hurt.

that's what i expected but i was going to let him say that first before i called him on it.