PDA

View Full Version : How Are These All Stars So Terrible On D? Lillard, Harden and Irving



Clippersfan86
02-13-2014, 01:48 PM
I can understand guards like Steve Nash before or Curry now who aren't good on D but at least TRY. These three guards though look so disinterested in playing defense most of the time and seem only focused with offense. Is there hope for any of these guys on D?

goku
02-13-2014, 01:53 PM
youth mostly all three are not even in there prime yet gotta give them time

bucketss
02-13-2014, 01:56 PM
maybe because they are exhausted at the other end.

Clippersfan86
02-13-2014, 01:57 PM
Nobody expects them to be great right away on D... but matador D night in and night out? Harden is a 5th year player and Kyrie a 3rd. Lillard maybe has the most excuse as it's his second year.

Chronz
02-13-2014, 03:29 PM
Harden has regressed as a player/winner thats for sure, but give it time, lets see how they defend in the playoffs. Irving and Lillard are pretty new to defense, back in his youth, CP3 wasn't the stud he currently is on that end.

mightybosstone
02-13-2014, 03:37 PM
You have to remember that most of the guys you're mentioning are all still insanely young, and their offenses are all really, really reliant on them. So they're exerting a ton of effort on one end of the court. When Harden played for OKC, he wasn't asked to do nearly as much on the offensive end, and his defense was substantially better.

Those guys also don't play for coaches that necessarily preach or demand defensive intensity. Look what Thibodeau has done for Rose's defense. But it's still so early in their careers. There have been a ton of guys who started their careers off as bad or mediocre defenders who ended up become average or better than average on that end of the floor. I'm sure some or all of those guys will be much better in that regard when we have this conversation five years from now.

Chronz
02-13-2014, 03:45 PM
You have to remember that most of the guys you're mentioning are all still insanely young, and their offenses are all really, really reliant on them. So they're exerting a ton of effort on one end of the court. When Harden played for OKC, he wasn't asked to do nearly as much on the offensive end, and his defense was substantially better.

Those guys also don't play for coaches that necessarily preach or demand defensive intensity. Look what Thibodeau has done for Rose's defense. But it's still so early in their careers. There have been a ton of guys who started their careers off as bad or mediocre defenders who ended up become average or better than average on that end of the floor. I'm sure some or all of those guys will be much better in that regard when we have this conversation five years from now.
I think Harden purposely shoulders a greater load than he really should. And if you can make a difference defensively, it can make your offense less taxing, dead ball stops dont help transition opportunities.


Coaching prolly a factor tho

mightybosstone
02-13-2014, 03:50 PM
I think Harden purposely shoulders a greater load than he really should. And if you can make a difference defensively, it can make your offense less taxing, dead ball stops dont help transition opportunities.

Coaching prolly a factor tho

I totally agree. When the Rockets are moving the basketball and Harden isn't playing iso-ball, Houston's offense is so much better. I even prefer when they go to Dwight inside, and let the offense develop that way. I'm not sure that's a knock on Harden, though. I think McHale isn't great at drawing up offensive plays, and he gives them too much leeway when it comes to the offense. They resort to iso basketball and the Howard-Harden pick and roll too much. It also results in far too many unforced turnovers.

c.c.
02-13-2014, 04:06 PM
I totally agree. When the Rockets are moving the basketball and Harden isn't playing iso-ball, Houston's offense is so much better. I even prefer when they go to Dwight inside, and let the offense develop that way. I'm not sure that's a knock on Harden, though. I think McHale isn't great at drawing up offensive plays, and he gives them too much leeway when it comes to the offense.They resort to iso basketball and the Howard-Harden pick and roll too much. It also results in far too many unforced turnovers.

I honestly want him gone, he's like that nice teacher that the whole class likes but don't listen to all the time. I like McHale but I don't think he's the right coach for our current Rockets team.

Bruno
02-13-2014, 04:10 PM
i don't think haren is as terrible as he seems. its an effort thing and he reserves himself for offense. he takes the same approach to defense that a 32+ year old Kobe did/does. only thing is theres no excuse because he's so young and he hasn't established himself as a respectable defender.

Clippersfan86
02-13-2014, 04:37 PM
Chronz, Boss and Bruno you all bring up fair and good points. That being said I'm not expecting good defense but rather some signs of improving. You guys remember how terrible Blake was as a rookie defender right? But little by little every year he improved it. Harden and Irving haven't shown the same flashes of improvement IMO. Lillard can get a pass as a second year player taking on a much bigger load.

LongIslandIcedZ
02-13-2014, 04:40 PM
Wasn't Blake Griffin a rookie All-Star who was a very poor defender?

Defense seems to develop later than offense.

mightybosstone
02-13-2014, 04:44 PM
Chronz, Boss and Bruno you all bring up fair and good points. That being said I'm not expecting good defense but rather some signs of improving. You guys remember how terrible Blake was as a rookie defender right? But little by little every year he improved it. Harden and Irving haven't shown the same flashes of improvement IMO. Lillard can get a pass as a second year player taking on a much bigger load.

Those are different circumstances, though. Blake is an absolute freak athlete, which is not to say that the guys we've previously discussed are not. But they're not on Blake's level. He also plays a position which requires a little more effort defensively. Teams can hide a terrible defender at PG and SG as long as they have great interior defense. But a terrible defender at PF or C can really kill your team defense. It's almost expected of you to be at least average defensively as a big man. But not really at the guard positions.

Goose17
02-13-2014, 05:04 PM
With Lillard I think it's youth. With Irving I think it's a mindset.

FYI Curry has been pretty good defensively this season, not great, but above average.

PinstripePride
02-13-2014, 06:23 PM
Harden relies mostly on his offensive part of the game because he knows he has Dwight behind him that will help him out on the defensive side. Same can be said with Lillard as he has Aldridge that can help him out.

DreamShaker
02-13-2014, 09:07 PM
Chronz, Boss and Bruno you all bring up fair and good points. That being said I'm not expecting good defense but rather some signs of improving. You guys remember how terrible Blake was as a rookie defender right? But little by little every year he improved it. Harden and Irving haven't shown the same flashes of improvement IMO. Lillard can get a pass as a second year player taking on a much bigger load.

Harden shows flashes, he just lacks effort at times. He has played some good post D and is really good at guarding shots if he's already there. His issues are chasing guys off picks and closing out. It's not just him on the Rockets, though. They don'y close out very well. Sometimes it's shameful.

tmacsc2
02-13-2014, 09:13 PM
Nobody expects them to be great right away on D... but matador D night in and night out? Harden is a 5th year player and Kyrie a 3rd. Lillard maybe has the most excuse as it's his second year.
Lillard should be excellent on defense after idolizing Gary Payton and being from Oakland. He should really try to improve his defense.

3RDASYSTEM
02-13-2014, 09:16 PM
I can understand guards like Steve Nash before or Curry now who aren't good on D but at least TRY. These three guards though look so disinterested in playing defense most of the time and seem only focused with offense. Is there hope for any of these guys on D?

From the games I've watched so far HARDEN does give effort and comes up with steals and deflections with his extra effort, he has been battling foot/ankle Injuries so im surprised at his efforts from the few games I've watched, if CURRY/NASH are trying than that is such a sad case because even though LILLARD/IRVING play no defense according to you, they sure as do put the ball In the bucket, I don't care how un efficient or high level PER, they gun away because they have the green light

HARDEN has the best shot because of rockets team defense and him being able to gamble or play man up with BEV and HOWARD at his side, then he can play spot minutes with ASIK also

Arch Stanton
02-14-2014, 02:19 AM
With Lillard I think it's youth. With Irving I think it's a mindset.

FYI Curry has been pretty good defensively this season, not great, but above average.

Irving is like 2-3 years younger than Lillard. So why does Lillard get a youth excuse?

Arch Stanton
02-14-2014, 02:27 AM
I know it's an ultra small sample size but Kyrie actually played some solid defense against Detroit's Will Bynum in the forth quarter to shut him down. Kyrie is usually pretty awful on the defensive end but is starting to exert much more effort. He's only 21 and I don't necessarily think he'll ever be a great or even good defender, but I do think he will improve.

Deception
02-14-2014, 03:12 AM
Irving is like 2-3 years younger than Lillard. So why does Lillard get a youth excuse?

I think he meant youth as in experience, not age.

Deception
02-14-2014, 03:12 AM
I know it's an ultra small sample size but Kyrie actually played some solid defense against Detroit's Will Bynum in the forth quarter to shut him down. Kyrie is usually pretty awful on the defensive end but is starting to exert much more effort. He's only 21 and I don't necessarily think he'll ever be a great or even good defender, but I do think he will improve.

:laugh::laugh:

Goose17
02-14-2014, 06:50 AM
I think he meant youth as in experience, not age.

Correct^

DreamShaker
02-14-2014, 07:05 AM
:laugh::laugh:

Hey man. Baby steps. Maybe in the future he can shut down Pablo Prigioni.