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PinstripePride
02-11-2014, 06:03 PM
http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2014/02/lebron-says-hell-be-top-4-all-time-do-you-agree-video/

“I’m going to be one of the top four that’s ever played this game, for sure. And if they don’t want me to have one of those top four spots, they’d better find another spot on that mountain. Somebody’s gotta get bumped, but that’s not for me to decide. That’s for the architects.”

still1ballin
02-11-2014, 06:07 PM
This should be good

Jamiecballer
02-11-2014, 06:08 PM
lol

it's hard to imagine him being wrong at this point.

OlivaThor
02-11-2014, 06:10 PM
Let the hate begin

t_money25
02-11-2014, 06:20 PM
^^ This

tredigs
02-11-2014, 06:21 PM
In 5 years I could see it as:

MJ / Kareem / Wilt / Magic

MJ / Kareem / Wilt / Russell

MJ / Kareem / Magic / Bird

MJ / Shaq / Lebron / Russell

MJ / Lebron / Duncan / Oscar

No real order, and the list goes on. I mean, there's a lot of guys (~10) worthy of the top 4 depending on how you rank it. This is one Lebron boast this month I'm fine with.

MyDRoseLikeDeng
02-11-2014, 06:24 PM
Everytime I want to like the guy, he does or says something that irritates me..

xRODMANx
02-11-2014, 06:26 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

JordansBulls
02-11-2014, 06:26 PM
I don't see a problem with it. I think top 5 certainly is true, top 4 is probably accurate as well with the accolades.

ManRam
02-11-2014, 06:27 PM
Hey, whatever keeps him motivated. Certainly not outside the realm of future possibility.

Nats_vcu-Okc35
02-11-2014, 06:28 PM
Let's be clear here though, he said that he will be when he is finished with his career, not now. At 30 that could be up to 10 more seasons with probably 5 more in his prime, the way I see it. If he wants to project confidence, I don't know how he doesn't say it, when asked.

It's on him now to live up to those claims though now that he said it.

PleaseBeNice
02-11-2014, 06:28 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

Ok.

abe_froman
02-11-2014, 06:30 PM
he def can be,i dont like making definitive predictions until a guy is late in her career and pretty much have a complete picture...but i have him solidly in the 2nd tier(about 2-12),and its pretty interchangeable imo.i mean he has the stat dominance,the accolades and the rings ,not saying he is top 4,but he does have an argument for it

Dade County
02-11-2014, 06:32 PM
If he stops extending playoff series, and plays up to his potential night after night; then I can take him seriously.

Until then, his Le-Con in my eyes.

TorontoHuskies
02-11-2014, 06:34 PM
I don't even know if he'll be better than Durant at the end of his career.

The Flash
02-11-2014, 06:37 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

LoL, your top 9? What the hell is that? And who cares? and why 9? But who cares about your top ?

eibbor
02-11-2014, 06:38 PM
Without arguing about whether he will or won't...

I would absolutely hope my favorite player is reaching for the top rather than settle.

What else is he supposed to say... "Oh man, no way. Eventually I'll be forgotten. There are a lot of basketball players."

jerellh528
02-11-2014, 06:39 PM
I would have no problem with him saying something along the lines of "I'm trying my hardest, I wanna be the best to ever play" or something like that. But what he said is just plain douchey and makes me not like him even more.

ManRam
02-11-2014, 06:41 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

I'd like to see your top 9 and then talk about "super teams" a bit more ;)

I'm sure the bulk of that top 9 spent most of their careers on "super teams".

xRODMANx
02-11-2014, 06:43 PM
I just don't see him passing Jordan, Oscar, shaq, Kareem, Duncan,. And as of right now Kobe, wilt, Hakeem, Russell, and magic are all better than him.

ManRam
02-11-2014, 06:43 PM
I would have no problem with him saying something along the lines of "I'm trying my hardest, I wanna be the best to ever play" or something like that. But what he said is just plain douchey and makes me not like him even more.

And, when Kobe make similar comments you're cool with it? ;)

jerellh528
02-11-2014, 06:45 PM
And, when Kobe make similar comments you're cool with it? ;)

I don't recall him saying anything this douchey about bumping ppl off the mountain to make room for him because he's top 4 of all time. I recall him saying, I wanna be the best or something like that. But normally the only thing out of Kobe's mouth is about championships. Or plz refresh my memory?

tredigs
02-11-2014, 06:48 PM
Jerell has a point. Unsurprisingly he didn't exactly word it with the respect the question probably warranted. But that's Lebron, take it or leave it.

ManRam
02-11-2014, 06:53 PM
I don't recall him saying anything this douchey about bumping ppl off the mountain to make room for him because he's top 4 of all time. I recall him saying, I wanna be the best or something like that. But normally the only thing out of Kobe's mouth is about championships. Or plz refresh my memory?

Fair. I'm not gonna sift through Kobe's quotes. He's said at times that he's better than Jordan. So be it. I'm sure their greatness motivates them. Kobe has been very vocal about it. They've all said stupid and egotistical things...most every star has at a point. LeBron was very blunt about this. Like any great ever, so long as he backs it up no one will ultimately care, much like we currently treat Kobe, Shaq, Jordan etc.


But hey, in their defense, it's hard to be humble when you're stuntin on the jumbotron.

Slug3
02-11-2014, 06:57 PM
I don't recall him saying anything this douchey about bumping ppl off the mountain to make room for him because he's top 4 of all time. I recall him saying, I wanna be the best or something like that. But normally the only thing out of Kobe's mouth is about championships. Or plz refresh my memory?

Didn't Kobe say he's better than Jordan and only second to like Wilt or something like that? Or is that different?

b@llhog24
02-11-2014, 07:02 PM
Well he has a good trajectory so far. And fyi if you're not top four currently and you want to be top four you're gonna have to bump someone off.

thephoenixson28
02-11-2014, 07:06 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

Name one person that ever has.

jerellh528
02-11-2014, 07:17 PM
Didn't Kobe say he's better than Jordan and only second to like Wilt or something like that? Or is that different?

Wow I didn't know he said he was better than mj. If so than that is very douchey. Was he referring to 1 on 1 or all time greatness factor? That's just dumb of him to say that lol

abe_froman
02-11-2014, 07:20 PM
Name one person that ever has.
rick barry and hakeem...but still you make a valid point,title teams are almost always stacked or can be classified as "superteams"

astonmartin10
02-11-2014, 07:25 PM
With all his accolades to his name and the ones he will add I see no problem with what he is saying.

People will hate on him because he is saying it though.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2014, 07:26 PM
he is probably right.

king4day
02-11-2014, 07:28 PM
This should be good

I actually lol'd reading this. I suspect there will be infractions given out when this thread has run its course :)

king4day
02-11-2014, 07:29 PM
I don't mind him saying these things. Whether it's true or not remains to be seen. There's no true list of the best. He'll be up there for sure though.

tredigs
02-11-2014, 07:29 PM
rick barry and hakeem...but still you make a valid point,title teams are almost always stacked or can be classified as "superteams"

And Duncan in '03. Star names aside, not many have carried a team as much Lebron did last season though.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2014, 07:29 PM
rick barry and hakeem...but still you make a valid point,title teams are almost always stacked or can be classified as "superteams"

there are a very few number out outliers, but 95% of chips have been won by a star player with an amazing supporting cast. Just the facts of history.

mjm07
02-11-2014, 07:29 PM
Top 4 at least. Sounds about right.

nickdymez
02-11-2014, 07:31 PM
I don't even know if he'll be better than Durant at the end of his career.

This

nickdymez
02-11-2014, 07:32 PM
And, when Kobe make similar comments you're cool with it? ;)

They always have to pry Kobe in a Lebron discussion or vice versa

Gagan136
02-11-2014, 07:45 PM
To me it does not sound douchey at all, it would of if he said he would finish first without a doubt, but he placed himself in the top 4 which is actually somewhere i would expect him to land with the way things are going, it seems pretty realistic i don't see why people could have a problem with it.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2014, 07:48 PM
To me it does not sound douchey at all, it would of if he said he would finish first without a doubt, but he placed himself in the top 4 which is actually somewhere i would expect him to land with the way things are going, it seems pretty realistic i don't see why people could have a problem with it.

its sorta douchey, but we all know the greatest athletes to ever play were beyond confident, and have no problem saying this kind of thing.

I find it funny when a Mario Chalmers claims he is one of the best PG's, but in reality, its not like LeBron is wrong here, unless he gets hurt.

nastynice
02-11-2014, 07:48 PM
I see nothing wrong with what he said. He is challenging himself to be the best he can be and he's a confident player. He's got a LONG way to go, LONNNNG way to go, but hey, he might get there. He probably needs more prime years, I can't help but feel he's already peaked tho.

nastynice
02-11-2014, 07:50 PM
its sorta douchey, but we all know the greatest athletes to ever play were beyond confident, and have no problem saying this kind of thing.

I find it funny when a Mario Chalmers claims he is one of the best PG's, but in reality, its not like LeBron is wrong here, unless he gets hurt.

lol, did he really say this?

Hawkeye15
02-11-2014, 07:52 PM
lol, did he really say this?

he did like a year and a half ago. My brother sent me the link.

Gagan136
02-11-2014, 07:56 PM
its sorta douchey, but we all know the greatest athletes to ever play were beyond confident, and have no problem saying this kind of thing.

I find it funny when a Mario Chalmers claims he is one of the best PG's, but in reality, its not like LeBron is wrong here, unless he gets hurt.

I can see how people think its douchey, but it is also reasonable

TDE
02-11-2014, 07:56 PM
He will surpass Michael Jordan as the GOAT with 3 more rings, possibly 2 more

THE MTL
02-11-2014, 07:57 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

I hate posts like these cause everyone else in the Top 10 had a super team as well. Larry Bird had 3 OTHER HOF'ers averaging ridiculous numbers too. Magic Johnson had Worthy and Kareem and vice-vera for Kareem. Wilt didnt win anything until he joined a STACKED Lakers team with West, Baylor.

Btw, Chris Bosh isnt even playing like a superstar. And Wade is hurt every few games

nastynice
02-11-2014, 07:58 PM
rick barry and hakeem...but still you make a valid point,title teams are almost always stacked or can be classified as "superteams"

true. but this situation seems a bit different. You gotta remember AT THE TIME they formed, they legitimately had 2 top 3 players and another top 10 player in the league. 3 legitimate franchise players. They were stacked beyond stacked. And they also had other decent players jumping on board too in hopes of a ring, like mike miller, big z, bibby

I'm not necessarily holding it against him, but its hard not to take that into account when looking at his overall legacy.

He's still been amazing tho, even that first year everyone forgets how beast he was in the playoffs until they met the mavs. He was just completely taking over games vs boston and chi. Thats when I knew he took that next step, even tho he didn't get a ring, he turned into that unstoppable machine that we saw the past few years. Seems to have slightly regressed this year tho, i don't know. Maybe saving it for playoffs.

THE MTL
02-11-2014, 07:58 PM
Top 4 player ever. Thats a very good estimate. He might be even higher.

Heediot
02-11-2014, 07:59 PM
I don't respect the cop out dynasty, but I think he's a top 5 player all time. Might be as high as 2 when it's all said and done.

KnicksorBust
02-11-2014, 08:01 PM
He can be top 2. Mine:

MJ-Kareem-Magic-Kobe

He bumps Kobe when all is said and done.

P&GRealist
02-11-2014, 08:02 PM
The King sure is humble.

sixer04fan
02-11-2014, 08:02 PM
No problem with this. All of the all-time greats saw themselves as such. It's called confidence. Lebron is/will be one of them.

You think MJ ever said "oh no, I'm not worthy of such appraisal"? No, he probably said "**** you. I'm the greatest to ever play the damn game."

And at the same time, he is humble in a good way. He works/practices harder than any player. He's a student of the game and appreciates it's history. And he always praises the great players before him when asked.

ghettosean
02-11-2014, 08:03 PM
Anyone think he would be saying this if Ray Allen didn't hit that shot?

P&GRealist
02-11-2014, 08:04 PM
I don't know, that 2011 finals loss still stands out. I think out of the top 10 players in NBA history, and that's counting guys who've lost finals like Shaq, Bird, Kobe, Magic, Duncan, Wilt...

LeBron has had the worst finals loss showing of any of those guys. Top 4 is way too high in my book when you take into account how badly he's lost compared to those guys and not just take into account his wins.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2014, 08:06 PM
I can see how people think its douchey, but it is also reasonable

oh for sure.

P&GRealist
02-11-2014, 08:06 PM
Well, despite everything that's being said here.....

JOIN THE DUNK CONTEST LEBRON!!!! PLEASE!!!!

ManRam
02-11-2014, 08:14 PM
70% of ESPN readers agree with him.

http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=frontpage&pollId=4184329


Kinda makes it sound like less of a bold/irrational/out of line comment.

abe_froman
02-11-2014, 08:18 PM
70% of ESPN readers agree with him.

http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=frontpage&pollId=4184329


Kinda makes it sound like less of a bold/irrational/out of line comment.
thats not really not something to point to as validation of his claim

JordansBulls
02-11-2014, 08:32 PM
And Duncan in '03. Star names aside, not many have carried a team as much Lebron did last season though.

And MJ 1991 and 1998 when he was the only allstar.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-11-2014, 08:34 PM
It'll probably happen.

beliges
02-11-2014, 08:35 PM
Lebron will have the opportunity to crack the top 5 but will only be able to do so with another 2 titles I would imagine. There is no more excuses for Lebron not to win titles. He's got two already and is well on his way. I would say win another two and continue to be a top 3 player in this league for the next 6 years or so then he will surely be top 5 of all time. Its not that far fetched but without another couple of championships, it will never happen.

Zefflin
02-11-2014, 08:36 PM
Funny how Lecon has to talk about and glorify himself so much. I don't take anything involving Lebron James to be a serious discussion.

mightybosstone
02-11-2014, 08:36 PM
I'd probably put him in my top 4 right now. I'd probably rank them:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Lebron

With a few more rings, MVPs and statistically dominant seasons, I could feasibly rank him as high as second. But he'd have to do something truly spectacular to ever surpass Jordan.

mightybosstone
02-11-2014, 08:38 PM
And MJ 1991 and 1998 when he was the only allstar.

:eyebrow: Really? You're going to tell me he carried that Bulls team without help from Pippen, Grant and Rodman? Jordan did a lot of things, but he never won a title without a legitimate No. 2.

JordansBulls
02-11-2014, 08:41 PM
:eyebrow: Really? You're going to tell me he carried that Bulls team without help from Pippen, Grant and Rodman? Jordan did a lot of things, but he never won a title without a legitimate No. 2.

yes, he won multiple titles as the only allstar. If Duncan in 2003 is considered who carried a team despite having Robinson, Manu and Parker the same can be said of MJ.

armchairgm
02-11-2014, 08:43 PM
Funny how Lecon has to talk about and glorify himself so much. I don't take anything involving Lebron James to be a serious discussion.

I agree this guys always talking himself up true stars don't need to. I mean who has a hour long show to announce where he's signing??? Ego maniac or what.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2014, 08:44 PM
:eyebrow: Really? You're going to tell me he carried that Bulls team without help from Pippen, Grant and Rodman? Jordan did a lot of things, but he never won a title without a legitimate No. 2.

you haven't seen JB's deal with this before?

KnicksorBust
02-11-2014, 08:44 PM
He can be top 2. Mine:

MJ-Kareem-Magic-Kobe

He bumps Kobe when all is said and done.


I'd probably put him in my top 4 right now. I'd probably rank them:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Lebron

With a few more rings, MVPs and statistically dominant seasons, I could feasibly rank him as high as second. But he'd have to do something truly spectacular to ever surpass Jordan.

It's hard to imagine how much time and effort you would have saved in your life if you just copied my posts and said "I agree."

tredigs
02-11-2014, 08:47 PM
And MJ 1991 and 1998 when he was the only allstar.

To humor this JB - I've never agreed with an entire All Star game voting since I've watched the game, so that is not something that matters to me, but I did consider Jordan in '91. He had his help with a very solid cast and coach including Pip and Grant, but he was quite a bit better than everyone else on the team at that point. I rewatch that finals every few years because it's the first one I remember sitting down and watching after I started playing basketball. He was definitely dominant and by far the best player, but Scottie was very easily already All Star caliber.

ManRam
02-11-2014, 08:47 PM
thats not really not something to point to as validation of his claim

It doesn't validate the claim that he is that great, but it does validate the claim that LeBron is not saying anything we can perceive as controversial.

tredigs
02-11-2014, 08:52 PM
It doesn't validate the claim that he is that great, but it does validate the claim that LeBron is not saying anything we can perceive as controversial.

Same sentiments in the thread. Everyone seems to agree that he's got a great chance, and some think he's there. The nature of how he said it in combination with everything else he's blathered on about this year is... whatever. But I agree with him.

mightybosstone
02-11-2014, 08:53 PM
yes, he won multiple titles as the only allstar. If Duncan in 2003 is considered who carried a team despite having Robinson, Manu and Parker the same can be said of MJ.

That's TOTALLY different. Robinson was a shell of himself at that point, Parker was a sophomore and Manu was a rookie. None of those guys were producing anything remotely close to his prime, and none of them were putting up solid No. 2 numbers. Robinson was by far the second best player on the roster and he was only playing 26 minutes per game.

Now look at the 91 Bulls. Pippen averaged 18/7/6/2 and Grant averaged 13/8/2/1/1. Both buys boasted a PER over 17.5 and a WS/48 over .179. Pippen's 20.6 PER is damn good for a No. 2 weapon.

Now look at the 96 Bulls. It's a shocker Pippen didn't make the All-Star Game that year. He posted a 19/6/6/2/1 with a 21.0 PER and a .209 WS/48. That's DEFINITELY an All-Star worthy season. Kukoc's numbers were also pretty off-the-charts for a sixth man that year, and Rodman's numbers don't exactly stand out, but he was an All-Defensive 1st Team guy that season and he led the league in rebounds per game.

It's not comparable. Those Bulls teams were UNQUESTIONABLY better basketball teams than the 2003 Spurs. You could have taken Jordan off the Bulls, and that team still easily would have won 45-50 games that season. Take Duncan off that Spurs team and they would have been lucky to win more than 30-35.

mightybosstone
02-11-2014, 08:55 PM
you haven't seen JB's deal with this before?
I have not. Is it as bad as his "HCA means everything" take?


It's hard to imagine how much time and effort you would have saved in your life if you just copied my posts and said "I agree."
This is true, sir. Great minds think alike. ;)

tmacsc2
02-11-2014, 08:59 PM
I think in the end of his career he will be the greatest ever! Might never avg as many points as mike did but everything else he will own (obviously needs more chips tho) I will even go on to say he will have his own shoe brand apart from nike.

JordansBulls
02-11-2014, 09:00 PM
That's TOTALLY different. Robinson was a shell of himself at that point, Parker was a sophomore and Manu was a rookie. None of those guys were producing anything remotely close to his prime, and none of them were putting up solid No. 2 numbers. Robinson was by far the second best player on the roster and he was only playing 26 minutes per game.

Now look at the 91 Bulls. Pippen averaged 18/7/6/2 and Grant averaged 13/8/2/1/1. Both buys boasted a PER over 17.5 and a WS/48 over .179. Pippen's 20.6 PER is damn good for a No. 2 weapon.

Now look at the 96 Bulls. It's a shocker Pippen didn't make the All-Star Game that year. He posted a 19/6/6/2/1 with a 21.0 PER and a .209 WS/48. That's DEFINITELY an All-Star worthy season. Kukoc's numbers were also pretty off-the-charts for a sixth man that year, and Rodman's numbers don't exactly stand out, but he was an All-Defensive 1st Team guy that season and he led the league in rebounds per game.

It's not comparable. Those Bulls teams were UNQUESTIONABLY better basketball teams than the 2003 Spurs. You could have taken Jordan off the Bulls, and that team still easily would have won 45-50 games that season. Take Duncan off that Spurs team and they would have been lucky to win more than 30-35.

But he wasn't an allstar and MJ was the only allstar on the team those years. Those those teams are not superteams when only one guy makes the allstar team and everyone capable of making the allstar team has played at least half the season.
Hakeem gets credit for taking a team to the title despite having a guy who led the team in win shares on it.
Robinson won league mvp, Parker won finals mvp and Manu should have won finals mvp and led the team in win shares in the playoffs. Same with Dirk when Chandler led in WS/PER 48 minutes. Yet all of them get to say they carried there teams, but MJ always has this he had so and so. Not to mention Robinson was the same age as Rodman.

Shlumpledink
02-11-2014, 09:04 PM
As far as being a physical athletic specimen, him and Wilt Chamberlain are 1 and 2. In terms of overall greatness, Lebron hurt his legacy by teaming up with two other superstars, and while playing in a terrible conference his entire nba career (not his fault, but many other sports compare competition so basketball should too)

ManRam
02-11-2014, 09:04 PM
Same sentiments in the thread. Everyone seems to agree that he's got a great chance, and some think he's there. The nature of how he said it in combination with everything else he's blathered on about this year is... whatever. But I agree with him.

He's beginning (err...has for a few years) to sound like Shaq, Deion, Ali, Bird, Floyd, Wilt, most any WR, Kobe, MJ, Zeke, Chrissy Ronaldo, etc. etc. etc.

Most people view those people's egos as a part of their talent...perhaps eventually we'll get to that point with LeBron.

At the time it will annoy people, but like anyone ever, so long as he backs it up, few will care.

numba1CHANGsta
02-11-2014, 09:09 PM
Top 10, yes, Top 5? not even close

He still needs a long way to go before he goes ahead of MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Russell

He isn't even ahead of Kobe or Duncan yet, so he needs to stfu :)

mightybosstone
02-11-2014, 09:13 PM
But he wasn't an allstar and MJ was the only allstar on the team those years. Those those teams are not superteams when only one guy makes the allstar team and everyone capable of making the allstar team has played at least half the season.
Hakeem gets credit for taking a team to the title despite having a guy who led the team in win shares on it.
Robinson won league mvp, Parker won finals mvp and Manu should have won finals mvp and led the team in win shares in the playoffs. Same with Dirk when Chandler led in WS/PER 48 minutes. Yet all of them get to say they carried there teams, but MJ always has this he had so and so. Not to mention Robinson was the same age as Rodman.

"All-Star" means jack ****. Joe Johnson and Kobe Bryant were named ****ing All-Stars this season! And your Hakeem point is a horrible one. First off, most people give him credit for winning a title without a legit No. 2 in 94, not 95. That first Rockets Finals team was pretty abysmal, and he was the clear dominant player in nearly every relevant statistic. I guess you're referring to 95 (when Clyde was clearly a legitimately solid No. 2), but if that's the case, you're only using a single stat to prove your point. You're totally ignoring that Hakeem was the CLEAR leader in PER, that he averaged 28/11/4/3/2 in the regular season and a ridiculous 33/10/5/3/2 in the playoffs. Hakeem was CLEARLY the dominant player on both of those teams. End of discussion.

As for the Spurs, what the **** are you talking about? Those guys were not remotely in their primes in 2003, but you're acting as if that team was playing with vintage Robinson, Parker and Manu. How does that make any sense? If that's the case, then we REALLY need to criticize that Laker team last year for not winning a title since they've got four first-ballot Hall of Famers on the squad who clearly should have been performing at their prime level.

Seriously, dude. This is an awful take.

TorontoHuskies
02-11-2014, 09:18 PM
Jordan top Per in a season 31.6, top Per in a Playoffs 32....Lebron James Top per in a season 31.7, in a Playoff 37.4!!!!!

JordansBulls
02-11-2014, 09:19 PM
"All-Star" means jack ****. Joe Johnson and Kobe Bryant were named ****ing All-Stars this season! And your Hakeem point is a horrible one. First off, most people give him credit for winning a title without a legit No. 2 in 94, not 95. That first Rockets Finals team was pretty abysmal, and he was the clear dominant player in nearly every relevant statistic. I guess you're referring to 95 (when Clyde was clearly a legitimately solid No. 2), but if that's the case, you're only using a single stat to prove your point. You're totally ignoring that Hakeem was the CLEAR leader in PER, that he averaged 28/11/4/3/2 in the regular season and a ridiculous 33/10/5/3/2 in the playoffs. Hakeem was CLEARLY the dominant player on both of those teams. End of discussion.

As for the Spurs, what the **** are you talking about? Those guys were not remotely in their primes in 2003, but you're acting as if that team was playing with vintage Robinson, Parker and Manu. How does that make any sense? If that's the case, then we REALLY need to criticize that Laker team last year for not winning a title since they've got four first-ballot Hall of Famers on the squad who clearly should have been performing at their prime level.

Seriously, dude. This is an awful take.

No, allstar means they were an allstar player. That means a lot. To say Hakeem had no legit #2 in 1994 is the same as saying MJ had no legit #2 either since both players were the only allstars on there team. David Robinson won league mvp, Parker won finals mvp and Manu led the team in win shares in the playoffs, so obviously had Duncan had a lot of help. Drexler had more win shares in the playoffs than Hakeem in 1995 and thus his impact was felt across the board. And the Lakers last year were favorites to win the west as well.

Shammyguy3
02-11-2014, 09:26 PM
Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem are my top-3. After that I don't really have a consensus 4th player, a handful of guys have a strong case to be that guy including Lebron right now.

Jamiecballer
02-11-2014, 09:29 PM
No problem with this. All of the all-time greats saw themselves as such. It's called confidence. Lebron is/will be one of them.

You think MJ ever said "oh no, I'm not worthy of such appraisal"? No, he probably said "**** you. I'm the greatest to ever play the damn game."

And at the same time, he is humble in a good way. He works/practices harder than any player. He's a student of the game and appreciates it's history. And he always praises the great players before him when asked.

+1

you don't get where he is by shooting for middle of the pack

mightybosstone
02-11-2014, 09:30 PM
No, allstar means they were an allstar player. That means a lot. To say Hakeem had legit #2 in 1994 is the same as saying MJ had no legit #2 either since both players were the only allstars on there team.
What? This is truly idiotic. So you're telling me that Vernon Maxwell is every bit as good as Scottie Pippen and that Otis Thorpe was just as good as Horace Grant? As someone who claims to be a Bulls fan, you should be ashamed of yourself.


David Robinson won league mvp, Parker won finals mvp and Manu led the team in win shares in the playoffs, so obviously had Duncan had a lot of help.
IN DIFFERENT YEARS!!!!! MJ was the greatest player of all-time. Why didn't he win titles with the Wizards when he had quality teammates like Rip Hamilton, Jerry Stackhouse, Charles Oakley and Larry Hughes? Because he wasn't in his prime!


Drexler had more win shares in the playoffs than Hakeem in 1995 and thus his impact was felt across the board. And the Lakers last year were favorites to win the west as well.
You can't point out a single statistic and claim that stat makes one player better than another. That's nonsensical. Also, Drexler BARELY had more WS in the playoffs that year than Hakeem, while Hakeem completely destroyed Drexler in PER, points, rebounds and defensive value. If you honestly think Drexler was a better player than Hakeem that season, you have no clue what the **** you're talking about.

bucketss
02-11-2014, 09:36 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

hes done it twice.

bucketss
02-11-2014, 09:37 PM
Top 10, yes, Top 5? not even close

He still needs a long way to go before he goes ahead of MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Russell

He isn't even ahead of Kobe or Duncan yet, so he needs to stfu :)

thats what u think.

Jamiecballer
02-11-2014, 09:40 PM
And MJ 1991 and 1998 when he was the only allstar.

:faint:


you've got to be kidding.

98: Pippens 19.1/5.2/5.8 and all-world defense, Rodmans 15rpg and all-world defense

91: Pippens 17.8/7.3/6.2 and all-world defense

don't count for much to you?

i mean, i'll give you 91 when i look back it's pretty amazing but still, Pippen was god we just hadn't all realized it yet.

NYJ - NYY
02-11-2014, 09:42 PM
His game is unstoppable he deserves the credit he gets also the negativity but he will absolutely be top 2 end of career baring injury

IKnowHoops
02-11-2014, 09:44 PM
Everytime I want to like the guy, he does or says something that irritates me..

Like beat your team and shut down your favorite player when it matters? hahahahaha

Zefflin
02-11-2014, 09:45 PM
thats what u think.

that's what anyone who knows real basketball thinks.

IKnowHoops
02-11-2014, 09:47 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

Super team? Bosh scored 0 points in game 7 last year and D wade is half of his former self. Your delusional!

Jamiecballer
02-11-2014, 09:51 PM
Those those teams are not superteams when only one guy makes the allstar team and everyone capable of making the allstar team has played at least half the season.
huh?
my grandpa had a saying, "a hall of famer in his prime, beats an all-star everytime". actually he didn't say that but he should have. it's true.

Hakeem gets credit for taking a team to the title despite having a guy who led the team in win shares on it.
huh?

Robinson won league mvp, Parker won finals mvp and Manu should have won finals mvp and led the team in win shares in the playoffs. Same with Dirk when Chandler led in WS/PER 48 minutes. Yet all of them get to say they carried there teams, but MJ always has this he had so and so. Not to mention Robinson was the same age as Rodman.
huh?
counting players who would become great as great after the fact? how in the heck does that make sense? the ghosts of future Parker and future Ginobili didn't help Duncan in '03.

SPURSFAN1
02-11-2014, 09:57 PM
2rings 2finals mvp isn't better than 4 rings 3 finals and lebron barely won last year. Could have easily been 1,1 to 5,3

FOBolous
02-11-2014, 09:59 PM
I can see that. We'll have to see how his game ages first.

ThaDubs
02-11-2014, 10:04 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

lol

flea
02-11-2014, 10:04 PM
I really hope JordanBulls is trolling with some of this crap, like saying Drexler was better in 95 than Hakeem because of win shares.

Longhornfan1234
02-11-2014, 10:06 PM
KD will surpass LeBron with ease. KD is already better than LeBron has ever been. 31/7/5/ 64 TS% while ranked number 1 in iso defense.

mightybosstone
02-11-2014, 10:06 PM
2rings 2finals mvp isn't better than 4 rings 3 finals and lebron barely won last year. Could have easily been 1,1 to 5,3

But four MVPs trumps two MVPs and Lebron's still got several years of his prime left to add rings and accolades. Duncan is unquestionably a top 10 all-time guy, and I think he gives Lebron a much better fight in an all-time discussion than Kobe. But I'd still give Lebron an ever so slight edge based on peak performance and era dominance.

Also, don't give me the "barely" crap. Almost only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades. NBA basketball is neither.

Longhornfan1234
02-11-2014, 10:09 PM
2rings 2finals mvp isn't better than 4 rings 3 finals and lebron barely won last year. Could have easily been 1,1 to 5,3

LEBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Duncan.


LeBron is a better season performer and playoff performer(superior numbers) than Duncan. Duncan failed to repeat. LeBron's peak is better than Duncan's. LeBron is a better player...period.

Slug3
02-11-2014, 10:13 PM
2rings 2finals mvp isn't better than 4 rings 3 finals and lebron barely won last year. Could have easily been 1,1 to 5,3

Well I think he is going off of playing another 5+ years to add to what he has.

But really everyone, if this was Kobe or Jordan saying this then everyone would just be saying how they like his confidence.

Pakman
02-11-2014, 10:14 PM
LeBron needed wade AND bosh. I rest my case.

TmacBryant
02-11-2014, 10:17 PM
Wow I didn't know he said he was better than mj. If so than that is very douchey. Was he referring to 1 on 1 or all time greatness factor? That's just dumb of him to say that lol

No he didn't say that, that's what people thought he said in a video where you couldn't really hear the audio at first. If you look at the video he is talking to someone on the side saying that he is #2 after wilt and jordan is #3... he meant it as a scorer in a single game.

Wilt 100pt , kobe 81pt, mj 69pts

this is the video in question. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JG816w5sBw

Longhornfan1234
02-11-2014, 10:24 PM
LeBron needed wade AND bosh. I rest my case.

Wade is a top 50-60 player in history and I don't where to rank soft Bosh. Wade averaged 15/49 TS% and Bosh averaged 12/ 52 TS% in the playoffs. That's freaking awful. LeBron had carry an awful/inefficient supporting cast last year.

bucketss
02-11-2014, 10:28 PM
2rings 2finals mvp isn't better than 4 rings 3 finals and lebron barely won last year. Could have easily been 1,1 to 5,3

i know it hurts LMAOOO

bucketss
02-11-2014, 10:29 PM
LeBron needed wade AND bosh. I rest my case.

0 point game 7 bosh, and washed up wade.. yup

bucketss
02-11-2014, 10:31 PM
that's what anyone who knows real basketball thinks.

wow i guess you got me there :rolleyes:

beliges
02-11-2014, 10:39 PM
2rings 2finals mvp isn't better than 4 rings 3 finals and lebron barely won last year. Could have easily been 1,1 to 5,3

LEBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Duncan.


LeBron is a better season performer and playoff performer(superior numbers) than Duncan. Duncan failed to repeat. LeBron's peak is better than Duncan's. LeBron is a better player...period.

Dude enough. Either some of you simply don't know your history or you are delusional. Duncan is the greatest PF to ever play the game and has 4 titles. Enough ranking lebron on potential. If lebron wins a few more titles then these arguments make sense. But two rings is not nearly enough to make these ridiculous comments. In all my years of closely following the NBA, Lebron is the only player i remember excused of winning rings.

SPURSFAN1
02-11-2014, 10:40 PM
i know it hurts LMAOOO

Lebron is never going to be top 5 of all time. Ever. Stop being salty.

J4KOP99
02-11-2014, 10:41 PM
Very fair assessment. He is well on his way.

SPURSFAN1
02-11-2014, 10:42 PM
But four MVPs trumps two MVPs and Lebron's still got several years of his prime left to add rings and accolades. Duncan is unquestionably a top 10 all-time guy, and I think he gives Lebron a much better fight in an all-time discussion than Kobe. But I'd still give Lebron an ever so slight edge based on peak performance and era dominance.

Also, don't give me the "barely" crap. Almost only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades. NBA basketball is neither.

Regular season accolades? hahahahaahaha Good story bro.

Jamiecballer
02-11-2014, 10:42 PM
Dude enough. Either some of you simply don't know your history or you are delusional. Duncan is the greatest PF to ever play the game and has 4 titles. Enough ranking lebron on potential. If lebron wins a few more titles then these arguments make sense. But two rings is not nearly enough to make these ridiculous comments. In all my years of closely following the NBA, Lebron is the only player i remember excused of winning rings.

maybe it's time to update your criteria, ye who lives in shelter made of rock :p

beliges
02-11-2014, 10:43 PM
i know it hurts LMAOOO

Lebron is never going to be top 5 of all time. Ever. Stop being salty.

That's also not true. If he wins 2-3 more titles he'll certainly have a very likey chance of being top 5. But there's a reason you don't find too many superstars with 4-5 rings. Its extremely difficult to accomplish.

beliges
02-11-2014, 10:46 PM
Dude enough. Either some of you simply don't know your history or you are delusional. Duncan is the greatest PF to ever play the game and has 4 titles. Enough ranking lebron on potential. If lebron wins a few more titles then these arguments make sense. But two rings is not nearly enough to make these ridiculous comments. In all my years of closely following the NBA, Lebron is the only player i remember excused of winning rings.

maybe it's time to update your criteria, ye who lives in shelter made of rock :p

Sorry but the criteria will always and forever be winning. Especially when you are on such a talented squad. Lebron will not change that criteria otherwise Wilt is unanimously the greatest player of all time and it wouldn't be close.

SPURSFAN1
02-11-2014, 10:46 PM
That's also not true. If he wins 2-3 more titles he'll certainly have a very likey chance of being top 5. But there's a reason you don't find too many superstars with 4-5 rings. Its extremely difficult to accomplish.

Tim Duncan wins in small markets. Surely you would know how hard it is to win as a small market. Dude doesn't run.

jsthornton7
02-11-2014, 10:47 PM
I am extremely interested in seeing how Lebron's game evolves once his supreme athleticism begins to decline. He is 29 years old and longevity and durability over the next few years will be just as important in deciding his legacy as a top 5 player.

Bruno
02-11-2014, 10:49 PM
he has work to do. a championship during a lockout season followed by another championship during the most injury depleted post-season in league history will have to be supported by more brass. nobody talks about '99 and Duncan (except Phil Jackson) because he did it three more times (almost four, thanks Pop). LBJs gotta do the same and it's gona be interesting to see how this unfolds. But I appreciate his boldness and it's within the realm of possibility.

TorontoHuskies
02-11-2014, 10:49 PM
KD will surpass LeBron with ease. KD is already better than LeBron has ever been. 31/7/5/ 64 TS% while ranked number 1 in iso defense.

That's what I'm saying KD is much more talented. Only thing Lebron had over KD is passing and that's only because he has something to pass to.

Bruno
02-11-2014, 10:50 PM
I am extremely interested in seeing how Lebron's game evolves once his supreme athleticism begins to decline. He is 29 years old and longevity and durability over the next few years will be just as important in deciding his legacy as a top 5 player.

i don't see why he can't just evolve into a Karl Malone type PF. he has the shot, the footwork and the size. I see less ball handling for him when he's older. not less facilitation, less ball handling.

xnick5757
02-11-2014, 10:50 PM
KD will surpass LeBron with ease. KD is already better than LeBron has ever been. 31/7/5/ 64 TS% while ranked number 1 in iso defense.

with ease, really!


lebron is 4 years older than durant and has:

2 NBA Championships
2 NBA Finals MVPs
4 NBA MVP Awards


Durant has:

cmellofan15
02-11-2014, 10:51 PM
Yeah, this 5 months of basketball means KD will be better than LeBron all time. Seems legit.

mngopher35
02-11-2014, 11:03 PM
That's also not true. If he wins 2-3 more titles he'll certainly have a very likey chance of being top 5. But there's a reason you don't find too many superstars with 4-5 rings. Its extremely difficult to accomplish.

I disagree with how you rank players, but like to see the consistency.

I find it hard to believe he makes top 4 without another title though, I'll agree to that.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2014, 11:08 PM
I have not. Is it as bad as his "HCA means everything" take?


pretty much, despite evidence pointing otherwise

Hawkeye15
02-11-2014, 11:11 PM
LeBron needed wade AND bosh. I rest my case.

Magic needed KAJ, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, Wilkes, Riley

Bird needed McHale, Parish, Walton, DJ, Maxwell

Jordan needed Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and shooters galore

Kobe needed Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, and great role players

point?

Hawkeye15
02-11-2014, 11:12 PM
I find it funny that people want to point to LeBron's help. At the end of the day, did he EVER play with a player ranked as high as Magic or Kobe did (I mean in their primes, so throwing a fat, old Shaq at me isn't working)?

bucketss
02-11-2014, 11:16 PM
Lebron is never going to be top 5 of all time. Ever. Stop being salty.

can you tell us what you were feeling with 25 secs left game 6? i don't blame you. lebron is going down top 5 , and will go down as the only guy who gave duncan an nba finals Loss.

bucketss
02-11-2014, 11:21 PM
That's what I'm saying KD is much more talented. Only thing Lebron had over KD is passing and that's only because he has something to pass to.

defense,handles,post,attacking the basket,running the point,passing can't really name anything other than shooting that KD is better in...

bucketss
02-11-2014, 11:22 PM
Magic needed KAJ, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, Wilkes, Riley

Bird needed McHale, Parish, Walton, DJ, Maxwell

Jordan needed Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and shooters galore

Kobe needed Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, and great role players

point?

it was too easy. lol

DillyDill
02-11-2014, 11:28 PM
Bron can definitely be top 5 and beyond without winning anymore rings.

Perfect Example: Wilts in everybody's top 5 (I Assume). And he only has 2 rings. The reason being is because of his statistical dominance otherwise Wilt wouldn't be top 5 with his 2 rings.

NoahH
02-11-2014, 11:33 PM
Whatever. Players showing this kind of confidence is fine. No one got mad at Jordan Crawford when he said he was gonna be better than MJ.

TheIlladelph16
02-11-2014, 11:35 PM
KD will surpass LeBron with ease. KD is already better than LeBron has ever been. 31/7/5/ 64 TS% while ranked number 1 in iso defense.


with ease, really!


lebron is 4 years older than durant and has:

2 NBA Championships
2 NBA Finals MVPs
4 NBA MVP Awards


Durant has:



You win the thread.

Pretty fair assessment from Lebron though. I consider him around 7-8 as it stands, so him saying that's where he is going to be seems fair (barring injury).


LeBron needed wade AND bosh. I rest my case.

What a poor case you just made. Are you sure you don't want to come up with something better?

mightybosstone
02-11-2014, 11:38 PM
Regular season accolades? hahahahaahaha Good story bro.

What are you talking about? Are you referring to MVPs? Because you are aware that you can't just completely discount the regular season like it doesn't exist, right? There are 82 games before the playoffs that you still have to play before the playoffs start.

Also, if you want to talk playoff production, we certainly can. Lebron's third in both postseason PER and WS/48 all-time, while Duncan is 8th and 10th, respectively. Lebron's numbers are just better than Duncan's no matter how you look at them.

Avenged
02-11-2014, 11:48 PM
I dont mind this at all whether its true or not. Enough of being politically correct.

SPURSFAN1
02-11-2014, 11:52 PM
What are you talking about? Are you referring to MVPs? Because you are aware that you can't just completely discount the regular season like it doesn't exist, right? There are 82 games before the playoffs that you still have to play before the playoffs start.

Also, if you want to talk playoff production, we certainly can. Lebron's third in both postseason PER and WS/48 all-time, while Duncan is 8th and 10th, respectively. Lebron's numbers are just better than Duncan's no matter how you look at them.

2003 tim duncan is better than any Lebron I know, and I'm sure most sane people agree with me. Now as far as Lebron being in the top 4 convo is disturbing at best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-11-2014, 11:58 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

This, when Lebron doesn't have one of the best teams ever, come talk to me. By my count Lebron is 0-9 without a super team.

cmellofan15
02-11-2014, 11:58 PM
Yeah because highlights from one game is all the proof we need hahahha

SPURSFAN1
02-11-2014, 11:59 PM
Yeah because highlights from one game is all the proof we need hahahha

If you catch the beginning you would know.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 12:03 AM
Magic needed KAJ, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, Wilkes, Riley

Bird needed McHale, Parish, Walton, DJ, Maxwell

Jordan needed Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and shooters galore



Kobe needed Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, and great role players

point?
Bynum, Lawl!

cmellofan15
02-12-2014, 12:07 AM
If you catch the beginning you would know.

Caught it.

Look at LeBron's 2011-2012 playoff stats and compare them to Duncan's lol

Avenged
02-12-2014, 12:09 AM
Magic needed KAJ, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, Wilkes, Riley

Bird needed McHale, Parish, Walton, DJ, Maxwell

Jordan needed Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and shooters galore



Kobe needed Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, and great role players

point?
Bynum, Lawl!

Yeah Bynum is arguably a stretch since he was injured but Shaq and Gasol? not to mention two of the biggest shot makers to ever play the game.

mightybosstone
02-12-2014, 12:12 AM
2003 tim duncan is better than any Lebron I know, and I'm sure most sane people agree with me. Now as far as Lebron being in the top 4 convo is disturbing at best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY

Really? Youtube videos in an all-time argument? That's not a great start, dude.

Look. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Tim Duncan. I think you could make a strong case for him over Lebron and placing him as high as fourth on the all-time list. That's saying a lot. But the numbers and the eye test both back me up in this case. No offense, but I do think you're a little biased. And I get it. I'm the same way with Hakeem most of the time. Some days I can take a step back and say that I think Duncan and Shaq are arguably better, but most days I see him as a lock in the top 6-7 range and think Duncan or Shaq over Hakeem is blasphemy.

It's one thing to say you you think Duncan is better than Lebron, but don't insult my intelligence because you disagree in the face of statistical evidence. It's in no way insane to say Lebron's peak is greater than Duncan's, and it's hardly "disturbing" to say he's arguably a top 4 guy. A lot of other intelligent posters would back me up on this. Your opinion is not infallible and Duncan is hardly the GOAT, so show a little humility in the future.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 12:17 AM
Yeah Bynum is arguably a stretch since he was injured but Shaq and Gasol? not to mention two of the biggest shot makers to ever play the game.

Shaq and Gasol were great, but Kobe was not in his peak with Shaq. Yeah we had their great clutch shot making abilities, but lets not over rate them.

ThuglifeJ
02-12-2014, 12:22 AM
He needs to shut. Up.

mRc08
02-12-2014, 12:22 AM
I think it comes off as unconfident whenever players ackowledge questions regarding their place in history. I can't imagine Derrick Jeter telling a reporter he see's himself as a top 5 Yankee for instance. With that said, its just lebron being lebron. Facts are he is probably top four. Its an impossible question to answer with all the factors and considering he is still playing. I typically answer these types of questions by asking: If I was starting a team from scratch and had any player of any generation to pick who would you pick?

For me and what I have seen in my lifetime it would have to be Jordan, Shaq, Lebron, Kobe. In that order. Sure kareem and those old guys were probably fantastic, but I'm not about to discount a player I have seen with my own eyes because of how good I think an NBA legend may have been. I can look at stats, but I have no idea of the in game impact bill russell had on the court. Magic Johnson for example, I know he won championships and put up great numbers but I dont what his playing style was like, his in game tendencies. And outside of a few posters i would assume most psd members are in the same boat.

For that reason, I think its irresponsible to just shout out the top five names you think you belong there. If you look at a stat line and watch old film/highlights and can draw conclusions that the big O should be in the conversation, great. But for me, I have to look at the most athletic generation (past 20 years) and pick out the best players. I do not think bill russell would stand a chance against shaq. Fair? maybe. Opinion? mine.

Gagan136
02-12-2014, 12:22 AM
that's what anyone who knows real basketball thinks.

Just wondering what is your top 10, and where do rank Lebron right now all time?

SPURSFAN1
02-12-2014, 12:24 AM
Really? Youtube videos in an all-time argument? That's not a great start, dude.

Look. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Tim Duncan. I think you could make a strong case for him over Lebron and placing him as high as fourth on the all-time list. That's saying a lot. But the numbers and the eye test both back me up in this case. No offense, but I do think you're a little biased. And I get it. I'm the same way with Hakeem most of the time. Some days I can take a step back and say that I think Duncan and Shaq are arguably better, but most days I see him as a lock in the top 6-7 range and think Duncan or Shaq over Hakeem is blasphemy.

It's one thing to say you you think Duncan is better than Lebron, but don't insult my intelligence because you disagree in the face of statistical evidence. It's in no way insane to say Lebron's peak is greater than Duncan's, and it's hardly "disturbing" to say he's arguably a top 4 guy. A lot of other intelligent posters would back me up on this. You're opinion is not infallible and Duncan is hardly the GOAT, so show a little humility in the future.


You fail to realize Tim Duncan played against better bigger faster dominating big men in the NBA vs this watered down small ball nba era. Old man skinny Tim Duncan made Prime Bosh garbage in game 7. I knew after the first half in game 7 Duncan was going to gas himself. Prime Duncan drops 50. That's the eye test.

cmellofan15
02-12-2014, 12:25 AM
Shaq and Gasol were great, but Kobe was not in his peak with Shaq. Yeah we had their great clutch shot making abilities, but lets not over rate them.

You talk about Lbj having one of the greatest supporting casts ever and then say let's not overrate someone who Kobe played with hahahahahaha

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 12:28 AM
You talk about Lbj having one of the greatest supporting casts ever and then say let's not overrate someone who Kobe played with hahahahahaha

What i said was true, Horry was good, but Fisher has always been a lower tier PG

mightybosstone
02-12-2014, 12:35 AM
You fail to realize Tim Duncan played against better bigger faster dominating big men in the NBA vs this watered down small ball nba era. Old man skinny Tim Duncan made Prime Bosh garbage in game 7. I knew after the first half in game 7 Duncan was going to gas himself. Prime Duncan drops 50. That's the eye test.

This is pretty nonsensical. You're making it sound like Duncan played in a completely different era as Lebron. You do realize that they only came into the league six years apart and much of Duncan's prime came when Lebron was in the league, right? Also, I completely fail to see why playing against weaker big men is necessarily a weakness for Lebron. He's not a center, and he plays far more 3 than 4. If anything, the strength at the SF position over the past decade or so has made Lebron's rise all the more impressive.

Also, for a Spurs fan, you're knowledge of Duncan is pretty poor. 50 points? Duncan has only reached 50 once in his entire career, and it was a regular season overtime game 13 years ago. Not a chance in hell he puts up 50 against a good defensive team like Miami in the postseason. That's just blatant ignorance.

bucketss
02-12-2014, 12:40 AM
This, when Lebron doesn't have one of the best teams ever, come talk to me. By my count Lebron is 0-9 without a super team.

i thought heat suck so bad that the nets were gonna slap them :laugh: now you want to change it up huh

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 12:40 AM
This is pretty nonsensical. You're making it sound like Duncan played in a completely different era as Lebron. You do realize that they only came into the league six years apart and much of Duncan's prime came when Lebron was in the league, right? Also, I completely fail to see why playing against weaker big men is necessarily a weakness for Lebron. He's not a center, and he plays far more 3 than 4. If anything, the strength at the SF position over the past decade or so has made Lebron's rise all the more impressive.

Also, for a Spurs fan, you're knowledge of Duncan is pretty poor. 50 points? Duncan has only reached 50 once in his entire career, and it was a regular season overtime game 13 years ago. Not a chance in hell he puts up 50 against a good defensive team like Miami in the postseason. That's just blatant ignorance.
Duncan had to go up against much tougher competition than Lebron has ever had to endure. Lebron is playing is a very watered down era. Early 2000's teams would eat up these teams.

Duncan = Donkey
02-12-2014, 12:41 AM
I think he can end up as a top 4 player

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 12:43 AM
i thought heat suck so bad that the nets were gonna slap them :laugh: now you want to change it up huh

Pacers will. If not Durant will prove why he's the best player in the nba today.

FlashBolt
02-12-2014, 12:43 AM
This isn't even a debate. He is a lock for top four if he can grab 2 more rings as the MVP. He doesn't have anything else to prove after that. I can certainly agree that he'll grab at least two.

SPURSFAN1
02-12-2014, 12:45 AM
This is pretty nonsensical. You're making it sound like Duncan played in a completely different era as Lebron. You do realize that they only came into the league six years apart and much of Duncan's prime came when Lebron was in the league, right? Also, I completely fail to see why playing against weaker big men is necessarily a weakness for Lebron. He's not a center, and he plays far more 3 than 4. If anything, the strength at the SF position over the past decade or so has made Lebron's rise all the more impressive.

Also, for a Spurs fan, you're knowledge of Duncan is pretty poor. 50 points? Duncan has only reached 50 once in his entire career, and it was a regular season overtime game 13 years ago. Not a chance in hell he puts up 50 against a good defensive team like Miami in the postseason. That's just blatant ignorance.

You're going to count a conference finals elimination as lebrons best statistical win shares lol. The highest tim duncan got was 2003 .279WS/48 in 24 games while winning a ship. Lebron's highest while winning was .284WS/48 playiing with bosh and wade in 2012. HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAH 2003 DUNCAN destroys any version of Lebron. Sorry man. GG

bucketss
02-12-2014, 12:49 AM
Pacers will. If not Durant will prove why he's the best player in the nba today.

ohh i thought miami was the best team ever, now he gon get slapped by not 1, but two teams.

mightybosstone
02-12-2014, 12:54 AM
You're going to count a conference finals elimination as lebrons best statistical win shares lol. The highest tim duncan got was 2003 .279WS/48 in 24 games while winning a ship. Lebron's highest while winning was .284WS/48 playiing with bosh and wade in 2012. HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAH 2003 DUNCAN destroys any version of Lebron. Sorry man. GG
What the **** are you talking about? You didn't address a single thing I just said and then randomly brought back numbers from several posts ago. Did no one ever teach you how a discussion works? When you're having a discussion with your friends, do you randomly interject to bring up a point someone made an hour ago and completely blow off the thing the rest of your friends are talking about? Seriously, learn how conversation works.

As for your point, you're talking about an EXTREMELY small sample size in both cases. But I totally fail to see what your point is in regard to Lebron's 2011-12 postseason. Who gives a **** who his teammates were? Duncan won in 05 and 07 with two future Hall of Famers in Manu and Parker still playing in their prime and in 99 with Robinson still in pretty damn good shape.

You're laughing, but you failed to make a single relevant point in that entire post. You just essentially made my point for me, which is that Lebron's 2011-12 postseason was probably better than any of Duncan's postseasons, and then proceeded to debate that point based on logic that I could just as easily turn around and use on you. You suck at debating almost as much as you suck at having a respectful conversation with another human being.

todu82
02-12-2014, 12:55 AM
He's getting there but for right now give me guys like Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bill Russell, Shaq, Larry Bird, Kobe, Oscar and Tim Duncan over him.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 12:56 AM
Pacers will. If not Durant will prove why he's the best player in the nba today.

ohh i thought miami was the best team ever, now he gon get slapped by not 1, but two teams.

One of them, Lebron gets exposed this year. He did last year, but Ray saved his legacy.

SPURSFAN1
02-12-2014, 12:57 AM
What the **** are you talking about? You didn't address a single thing I just said and then randomly brought back numbers from several posts ago. Did no one ever teach you how a discussion works? When you're having a discussion with your friends, do you randomly interject to bring up a point someone made an hour ago and completely blow off the thing the rest of your friends are talking about? Seriously, learn how conversation works.

As for your point, you're talking about an EXTREMELY small sample size in both cases. But I totally fail to see what your point is in regard to Lebron's 2011-12 postseason. Who gives a **** who his teammates were? Duncan won in 05 and 07 with two future Hall of Famers in Manu and Parker still playing in their prime and in 99 with Robinson still in pretty damn good shape.

You're laughing, but you failed to make a single relevant point in that entire post. You just essentially made my point for me, which is that Lebron's 2011-12 postseason was probably better than any of Duncan's postseasons, and then proceeded to debate that point based on logic that I could just as easily turn around and use on you. You suck at debating almost as much as you suck at having a respectful conversation with another human being.

You said a whole bunch of nothing. If anyone picks 2012 lebron/or any cleveland lebron over 2003 duncan, they're crazy. I'm going to sleep. You're long-winded responses have no meaning. hahahahaahahahahahahaah

mightybosstone
02-12-2014, 12:59 AM
You said a whole bunch of nothing. If anyone picks 2012 lebron/or any cleveland lebron over 2003 duncan, they're crazy. I'm going to sleep. You're long-winded responses have no meaning. hahahahaahahahahahahaah

Claiming you're right based on no evidence whatsoever and then laughing like an idiot doesn't make you right. It makes you an idiot. You probably should go to sleep, because you lost any semblance of sanity about 4-5 posts back in this thread.

jerellh528
02-12-2014, 01:02 AM
Claiming you're right based on no evidence whatsoever and then laughing like an idiot doesn't make you right. It makes you an idiot. You probably should go to sleep, because you lost any semblance of sanity about 4-5 posts back in this thread.

Hey man, are you any religious at all?

mightybosstone
02-12-2014, 01:04 AM
Hey man, are you any religious at all?

Nah. I'm an atheist. Is it that obvious?

bucketss
02-12-2014, 01:11 AM
One of them, Lebron gets exposed this year. He did last year, but Ray saved his legacy.

lebron 37 in the most important game of his career, kobe, 6-25, good thing the refs saved his legacy.

bucketss
02-12-2014, 01:12 AM
Nah. I'm an atheist. Is it that obvious?

lol

P&GRealist
02-12-2014, 01:16 AM
lebron 37 in the most important game of his career, kobe, 6-25, good thing the refs saved his legacy.

15 rebounds.

in a series where the rebounding winner won every game, it was important to get those extra rebounds for extra possessions as both teams were lights out defensively. It was a classic 90s style physical intense brand of defensive basketball.



And, and it wasn't 6-25, it was 6-24. Shows how much you know! PFftt

Leach11
02-12-2014, 01:35 AM
You said a whole bunch of nothing. If anyone picks 2012 lebron/or any cleveland lebron over 2003 duncan, they're crazy. I'm going to sleep. You're long-winded responses have no meaning. hahahahaahahahahahahaah

You do realize that typing "hahahahahahaha" does not strengthen your argument, right? What it does though, is reveals the anxieties you have over your own argument.

It's not even that there isn't a good argument to be made for Timmy D over Lebron. It's that you are completely incapable of making that argument. I mean, your best attempt at an argument was posting a ****ing youtube video of a single game. Do you really expect any of us to take you seriously?

Baller1
02-12-2014, 01:51 AM
Well... He's right.

Lebron definitely doesn't lack self-confidence though, sometimes he really does need to shut up. But whatever, you can say whatever you want when you're a walking legend.

Kaner
02-12-2014, 01:55 AM
Definitely possible (likely?) he'll be in the discussion although its tough to definitively pass up any of wilt, kareem, russel, Magic, or MJ.

Baller1
02-12-2014, 02:00 AM
Definitely possible (likely?) he'll be in the discussion although its tough to definitively pass up any of wilt, kareem, russel, Magic, or MJ.

I respect what Russell did, but he shouldn't be a top 5 all time player. I'd take Lebron over him if Lebron were to retire today.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2014, 02:05 AM
Yeah Bynum is arguably a stretch since he was injured but Shaq and Gasol? not to mention two of the biggest shot makers to ever play the game.

Bynum, Gasol, and Odom presented a hellish frontcourt in their 2 year run. The one year the C's won, Bynum was hurt. The 2 chips they had? He was a defensive cog that helped win a ring.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2014, 02:08 AM
15 rebounds.

in a series where the rebounding winner won every game, it was important to get those extra rebounds for extra possessions as both teams were lights out defensively. It was a classic 90s style physical intense brand of defensive basketball.



And, and it wasn't 6-25, it was 6-24. Shows how much you know! PFftt

and it took Artest having the best game of his season, and Gasol going Moses Malone to even put Kobe in the position to have a 4th quarter that helped win a chip.

But whatever.

RAY ALLEN SAVED LEBRON!!!!!!!!!!!

Hawkeye15
02-12-2014, 02:10 AM
I respect what Russell did, but he shouldn't be a top 5 all time player. I'd take Lebron over him if Lebron were to retire today.

me too. But I actually think Russell is very overrated all time. He was an offensive liability, and played with like 34 HOF'ers in a shrunk league.

Chronz
02-12-2014, 02:12 AM
To humor this JB - I've never agreed with an entire All Star game voting since I've watched the game, so that is not something that matters to me, but I did consider Jordan in '91. He had his help with a very solid cast and coach including Pip and Grant, but he was quite a bit better than everyone else on the team at that point. I rewatch that finals every few years because it's the first one I remember sitting down and watching after I started playing basketball. He was definitely dominant and by far the best player, but Scottie was very easily already All Star caliber.

Pippen had made the All-Star team the year prior and IMPROVED on his production. Thats the part JB always leaves out, perception over reality is his thing.

Baller1
02-12-2014, 02:16 AM
me too. But I actually think Russell is very overrated all time. He was an offensive liability, and played with like 34 HOF'ers in a shrunk league.

I feel the exact same. Like I said, I respect what he did and I believe that he epitomizes what a champion is... But top 5 all time? Not a chance, I think I'd have a tough time fitting him in my top 15.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2014, 02:16 AM
Pippen had made the All-Star team the year prior and IMPROVED on his production. Thats the part JB always leaves out, perception over reality is his thing.

yeah but, he wasn't an all star Chronz....

Hawkeye15
02-12-2014, 02:16 AM
I feel the exact same. Like I said, I respect what he did and I believe that he epitomizes what a champion is... But top 5 all time? Not a chance, I think I'd have a tough time fitting him in my top 15.

I have him in the 11-13 range for my top 15.

Baller1
02-12-2014, 02:20 AM
I have him in the 11-13 range for my top 15.

I don't remember the last time I made a thought out list of all time greats, but he'd probably be around that range for me as well.

mightybosstone
02-12-2014, 02:29 AM
I have him in the 11-13 range for my top 15.

I don't remember the last time I made a thought out list of all time greats, but he'd probably be around that range for me as well.

For the longest time, I was absolutely determined to keep Russell in my top 10, but I think Bill Simmons' hold on my brain is starting to slip. But the further he slips, the further down I put Wilt, because I just cannot justify putting Wilt that far ahead of Russell when Russell regularly dominated the guy in the postseason.

As it is now, I think I'd probably put MJ, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Duncan, Hakeem and Shaq at the top with Wilt, Bird, Russell and Kobe right behind them in an order I haven't solidified yet.

Baller1
02-12-2014, 02:33 AM
For the longest time, I was absolutely determined to keep Russell in my top 10, but I think Bill Simmons' hold on my brain is starting to slip. But the further he slips, the further down I put Wilt, because I just cannot justify putting Wilt that far ahead of Russell when Russell regularly dominated the guy in the postseason.

As it is now, I think I'd probably put MJ, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Duncan, Hakeem and Shaq at the top with Wilt, Bird, Russell and Kobe right behind them in an order I haven't solidified yet.

Just thinking off the top of my head, that sounds about right. The guy that I feel will never get enough credit and I legitimately would have him up near those guys... Stockton.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2014, 02:41 AM
For the longest time, I was absolutely determined to keep Russell in my top 10, but I think Bill Simmons' hold on my brain is starting to slip. But the further he slips, the further down I put Wilt, because I just cannot justify putting Wilt that far ahead of Russell when Russell regularly dominated the guy in the postseason.

As it is now, I think I'd probably put MJ, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Duncan, Hakeem and Shaq at the top with Wilt, Bird, Russell and Kobe right behind them in an order I haven't solidified yet.

I hear you, but I still value Wilt WAY ahead of Bill

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

those are my top 3

mightybosstone
02-12-2014, 02:44 AM
Just thinking off the top of my head, that sounds about right. The guy that I feel will never get enough credit and I legitimately would have him up near those guys... Stockton.
As much as I loathed the Malone/Stockton Jazz, I respect the hell out of Stockton. That being said, I'd have a super hard time justifying him in my top 20. After the 11 guys I already mentioned, I think the next obvious few are West, Oscar, Moses and Dr. J in no particular order. After that, you're looking at guys like Garnett, Robinson, Barkley, Dirk and maybe Wade to round out my top 20. I'd probably have Stockton in my 21-30 range with guys like Pippen, Havlicek, Ewing, Malone, Frazier, Nash and Reed. That's just off the top of my head, but my top 20 is pretty set in stone aside from order.

Baller1
02-12-2014, 02:49 AM
As much as I loathed the Malone/Stockton Jazz, I respect the hell out of Stockton. That being said, I'd have a super hard time justifying him in my top 20. After the 11 guys I already mentioned, I think the next obvious few are West, Oscar, Moses and Dr. J in no particular order. After that, you're looking at guys like Garnett, Robinson, Barkley, Dirk and maybe Wade to round out my top 20. I'd probably have Stockton in my 21-30 range with guys like Pippen, Havlicek, Ewing, Malone, Frazier, Nash and Reed. That's just off the top of my head, but my top 20 is pretty set in stone aside from order.

I don't know, I'd have Stockton right there with Dirk, Garnett, Wade, and arguably a couple more. I'm admittedly no history expert though, I'm just too young to have a fair judgement on all of them.

numba1CHANGsta
02-12-2014, 02:58 AM
LeBron James career is already tainted by teaming up with 2 all-star players along with the all-time leader in 3's, if LeBron did it with either Bosh or Wade then this would be debatable.

abe_froman
02-12-2014, 03:01 AM
me too. But I actually think Russell is very overrated all time. He was an offensive liability, and played with like 34 HOF'ers in a shrunk league.
i use to be like that until i read an article about 60's celtics, and russell's impact on it specifically that tried to quantify his defense/rebounding impact in advanced metrics terms that totally changed my way of thinking and which keeps him solidly in my top 10

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 03:02 AM
Bynum, Gasol, and Odom presented a hellish frontcourt in their 2 year run. The one year the C's won, Bynum was hurt. The 2 chips they had? He was a defensive cog that helped win a ring.
Go look at Bynums stats for our playoff runs and then we'll talk.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 03:03 AM
LeBron James career is already tainted by teaming up with 2 all-star players along with the all-time leader in 3's, if LeBron did it with either Bosh or Wade then this would be debatable.

Bingo. Lebron needs to have the best to win. Sad how people forget about him being a perennial poser his whole career.

Baller1
02-12-2014, 03:04 AM
i use to be like that until i read an article about 60's celtics, and russell's impact on it specifically that tried to quantify his defense/rebounding impact in advanced metrics terms that totally changed my way of thinking and which keeps him solidly in my top 10

Got a link by chance?

abe_froman
02-12-2014, 03:10 AM
Got a link by chance?

it was awhile ago and havent had a need to bring it up til now,so i'd have to look for it...but i can show you if/when i do

effen5
02-12-2014, 03:54 AM
LeBron James career is already tainted by teaming up with 2 all-star players along with the all-time leader in 3's, if LeBron did it with either Bosh or Wade then this would be debatable.

Unfortunately, I agree with this and it's hard for me to put him in the top 5 for doing this. Not to mention he plays in one of the worst basketball eras I've seen personally.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2014, 03:59 AM
Go look at Bynums stats for our playoff runs and then we'll talk.

delusionist, haven't you accepted the fact that I could care less about your opinion?

Phenom1
02-12-2014, 04:01 AM
You can't really ever say someone is top 4 or the "best," because there are 5 different positions and different eras that no matter what played a big part on dictating how successful a player will become. Idk why everyone is always saying Jordan is number 1, maybe number 1 shooting guard of all time or even best player on his era, but as of all time, no we can never tell. Just like we can't tell if lebron will be top 4. Don't let media and sponsors manipulate you.

Chronz
02-12-2014, 04:24 AM
Go look at Bynums stats for our playoff runs and then we'll talk.

What exactly are you expecting to find there?

Hawkeye15
02-12-2014, 04:25 AM
LeBron James career is already tainted by teaming up with 2 all-star players along with the all-time leader in 3's, if LeBron did it with either Bosh or Wade then this would be debatable.

so your opinion of a player differs. LeBron found his help. But Magic, Bird, Jordan, Duncan, and Kobe simply were given it.

cool

TDE
02-12-2014, 04:27 AM
What exactly are you expecting to find there?

Andrew Bynums Amazing Finals Stats

Andrew Bynum 09' Finals: 6.0/4.2/0.6 36%
Andrew Bynum 10' Finals: 7.4/5.1/0.0 45%

Chronz
02-12-2014, 04:28 AM
Got a link by chance?
Hes referring to Russells statistical +/- dominance I believe.

nastynice
02-12-2014, 05:27 AM
I'd probably put him in my top 4 right now. I'd probably rank them:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Lebron

With a few more rings, MVPs and statistically dominant seasons, I could feasibly rank him as high as second. But he'd have to do something truly spectacular to ever surpass Jordan.

really? 4 right now? above kobe, shaq, hakeem, duncan?? That's a MAJOR stretch. At the end of his career I could see him getting up in that type of company, but so far, c'mon he's clearly not there YET

Drummond#1
02-12-2014, 06:05 AM
Name one person that ever has.

Lets see. There was Jordan, Jordan (b2b), Moses, Timmy D (several times), Bird, Bill Russell.

Magic and Bird always had stacked teams but I wouldn't necessarily call them super teams.

Magic played with Old Kareem, James Worthy and AC Green
Larry played with Robert Parrish and Kevin Mchale.

A super team would have been Magic and Bird teaming up with Dominique Wilkens.

Drummond#1
02-12-2014, 06:06 AM
What if MJ had teamed up with Clyde Drexler and Shawn Kemp and they were all in there primes?

What if this is Lebrons last great season. He's already showing a little decline.

effen5
02-12-2014, 07:46 AM
:eyebrow: Really? You're going to tell me he carried that Bulls team without help from Pippen, Grant and Rodman? Jordan did a lot of things, but he never won a title without a legitimate No. 2.

Pippen was injured in the 97 finals. MJ definitely carried that team in the finals. Also, Mj played in an era where the east was absolutely stacked in the playoffs. MJ also played in an era where big men dominated...and still won.

Lebron on the other hand is going to stroll right into the ECF against the Pacers. This year the NBA is sooo pathetic it's not even funny.

I get it, Lebron stats speak for themselves, but when you have to join 2 future hof in a water down eastern conference where your rivalry the next few years is the Indiana Pacers...for me its just hard to say he's top 5.

R. Johnson#3
02-12-2014, 08:19 AM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

Sooooooo Michael Jordan is #10?

Kenny Powders
02-12-2014, 09:42 AM
Why does he even worry about this. Just play the damn game.

OlivaThor
02-12-2014, 10:00 AM
At the end of his career it will be MJ, LBJ, Kareem/Wilt .. Durant will make some noise too

thenaj17
02-12-2014, 10:01 AM
Bynum, Gasol, and Odom presented a hellish frontcourt in their 2 year run. The one year the C's won, Bynum was hurt. The 2 chips they had? He was a defensive cog that helped win a ring.

You're usually a very good poster but Bynum was hurt all 3 years. In the playoffs he didn't contribute a whole lot offensively and was never a great defender. His pick and roll D was awful. Odom was the most inconsistent player i have ever seen, with extremely spotty shooting.

It didn't help Fisher was a huge liability barring 1 game in those 3 years and despite his reputation, was a below average shooter. In fact, the only thing he was above average at was taking charges, which happened less than once a game. Well worthy of 30 mpg...

As a comparison to LeBron with Bosh and Wade...Kobe had far inferior teams for those 2 championships. Pau was nothing near Wade and Lamar Odom has never been an All Star, whereas Bosh is a multiple All Star who was a franchise player.

ghettosean
02-12-2014, 10:45 AM
I like how this is about Lebron SEE'S HIMSELF.... GTFO!!!

If Ray Allen didn't hit that shot he wouldn't be saying ****...

archdevil84
02-12-2014, 10:54 AM
Dwade destroys anyone in his prime

MonroeFAN
02-12-2014, 10:56 AM
D wades prime was one season, who cares?

MonroeFAN
02-12-2014, 10:58 AM
lebron is in my top 4 currently, btw.

Jordan
Shaq
Kareem
Lebron

mngopher35
02-12-2014, 11:13 AM
You're usually a very good poster but Bynum was hurt all 3 years. In the playoffs he didn't contribute a whole lot offensively and was never a great defender. His pick and roll D was awful. Odom was the most inconsistent player i have ever seen, with extremely spotty shooting.

It didn't help Fisher was a huge liability barring 1 game in those 3 years and despite his reputation, was a below average shooter. In fact, the only thing he was above average at was taking charges, which happened less than once a game. Well worthy of 30 mpg...

As a comparison to LeBron with Bosh and Wade...Kobe had far inferior teams for those 2 championships. Pau was nothing near Wade and Lamar Odom has never been an All Star, whereas Bosh is a multiple All Star who was a franchise player.

Ahh, more of this. Well someone brought up stats for Bynum earlier. Why don't you look at Wade and Bosh's stats from last post season. Gasol was easily better than either player. So weare supposed to completely ignore Bynum because of injuries yet we are supposed to assume Wade has been the same player?

mightybosstone
02-12-2014, 11:18 AM
really? 4 right now? above kobe, shaq, hakeem, duncan?? That's a MAJOR stretch. At the end of his career I could see him getting up in that type of company, but so far, c'mon he's clearly not there YET
I've already gone over this a million times, so I don't feel like recapping everything. The guy has four MVPs and could have more, has won back-to-back Finals with four overall Finals appearances in his career and his advanced numbers in both the regular and postseason speak for themselves. His longevity and career accolades may not be as impressive as some with longer careers, but his peak is arguably better than any player other than MJ.

Pippen was injured in the 97 finals. MJ definitely carried that team in the finals. Also, Mj played in an era where the east was absolutely stacked in the playoffs. MJ also played in an era where big men dominated...and still won.
First off, if Pippen was injured in the 97 Finals, the numbers certainly don't show it. He averaged 20/8/4/2/2 in that series and posted a higher TS% than Jordan did. Maybe you're referring to 98? Pippen still averaged 16/7/5/2/1 in that series, and Kukoc threw in 15/5/3/1 just fore good measure. As far as MJ dominating a league of big men, I fail to see how that proves anything. He also had excellent defensive bigs on all six of his championship teams. And it's not like he went head-to-head with those big men every night


Lebron on the other hand is going to stroll right into the ECF against the Pacers. This year the NBA is sooo pathetic it's not even funny. I get it, Lebron stats speak for themselves, but when you have to join 2 future hof in a water down eastern conference where your rivalry the next few years is the Indiana Pacers...for me its just hard to say he's top 5.
The NBA is so pathetic or the East is pathetic, because I think the latter is correct and the former is so very wrong. The West is completely stacked and even if the Heat get a couple of easy first-round games, the ECF and the Finals will be seriously tough series.

As for the whole "Lebron joined two Hall of Famers" argument, I think I'm pretty much down with that ********. I'm convinced that people who are still pissed about that because they have no knowledge whatsoever about the history of the game. You could look at any all-time great in the top 25 and they ALL teamed up with another elite player or two in their eras. Some just got luckier than others and didn't have to get traded or sign with that team in free agency. That doesn't make them saints. It makes them lucky.


What if MJ had teamed up with Clyde Drexler and Shawn Kemp and they were all in there primes?

See above comment. Also, this makes no sense. Why would Jordan leave a team with a better No. 2 in Pippen (who fit his style better) and one of the best defensive bigs and rebounders in the history of the game to randomly join two players who aren't arguably any better? That's my point. Guys like Jordan didn't have to leave their teams because they were given great players without having to go anywhere. If you had given Jordan Mo Williams and Zydrunas Ilgauskas as his two best players, you think he sticks around in Chicago his entire career?

I don't think Michael Jordan would have won a single ring with Lebron's supporting cast.

(waits for the angry, rambling responses)

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 12:16 PM
Go look at Bynums stats for our playoff runs and then we'll talk.

delusionist, haven't you accepted the fact that I could care less about your opinion?

I'm sure you looked them up by now and realize you were wrong, good day sir.

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 12:17 PM
What exactly are you expecting to find there?

Andrew Bynums Amazing Finals Stats

Andrew Bynum 09' Finals: 6.0/4.2/0.6 36%
Andrew Bynum 10' Finals: 7.4/5.1/0.0 45%
Lol

ILLUSIONIST^248
02-12-2014, 12:18 PM
Bynum, Gasol, and Odom presented a hellish frontcourt in their 2 year run. The one year the C's won, Bynum was hurt. The 2 chips they had? He was a defensive cog that helped win a ring.

You're usually a very good poster but Bynum was hurt all 3 years. In the playoffs he didn't contribute a whole lot offensively and was never a great defender. His pick and roll D was awful. Odom was the most inconsistent player i have ever seen, with extremely spotty shooting.

It didn't help Fisher was a huge liability barring 1 game in those 3 years and despite his reputation, was a below average shooter. In fact, the only thing he was above average at was taking charges, which happened less than once a game. Well worthy of 30 mpg...

As a comparison to LeBron with Bosh and Wade...Kobe had far inferior teams for those 2 championships. Pau was nothing near Wade and Lamar Odom has never been an All Star, whereas Bosh is a multiple All Star who was a franchise player.
Great post

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 12:28 PM
Ahh, more of this. Well someone brought up stats for Bynum earlier. Why don't you look at Wade and Bosh's stats from last post season. Gasol was easily better than either player. So weare supposed to completely ignore Bynum because of injuries yet we are supposed to assume Wade has been the same player?

you are also apparently suppose to overlook the fact that Bynum was, in fact, quite productive in the second of those playoff runs.

SPURSFAN1
02-12-2014, 12:52 PM
I've already gone over this a million times, so I don't feel like recapping everything. The guy has four MVPs and could have more, has won back-to-back Finals with four overall Finals appearances in his career and his advanced numbers in both the regular and postseason speak for themselves. His longevity and career accolades may not be as impressive as some with longer careers, but his peak is arguably better than any player other than MJ.

First off, if Pippen was injured in the 97 Finals, the numbers certainly don't show it. He averaged 20/8/4/2/2 in that series and posted a higher TS% than Jordan did. Maybe you're referring to 98? Pippen still averaged 16/7/5/2/1 in that series, and Kukoc threw in 15/5/3/1 just fore good measure. As far as MJ dominating a league of big men, I fail to see how that proves anything. He also had excellent defensive bigs on all six of his championship teams. And it's not like he went head-to-head with those big men every night


The NBA is so pathetic or the East is pathetic, because I think the latter is correct and the former is so very wrong. The West is completely stacked and even if the Heat get a couple of easy first-round games, the ECF and the Finals will be seriously tough series.

As for the whole "Lebron joined two Hall of Famers" argument, I think I'm pretty much down with that ********. I'm convinced that people who are still pissed about that because they have no knowledge whatsoever about the history of the game. You could look at any all-time great in the top 25 and they ALL teamed up with another elite player or two in their eras. Some just got luckier than others and didn't have to get traded or sign with that team in free agency. That doesn't make them saints. It makes them lucky.



See above comment. Also, this makes no sense. Why would Jordan leave a team with a better No. 2 in Pippen (who fit his style better) and one of the best defensive bigs and rebounders in the history of the game to randomly join two players who aren't arguably any better? That's my point. Guys like Jordan didn't have to leave their teams because they were given great players without having to go anywhere. If you had given Jordan Mo Williams and Zydrunas Ilgauskas as his two best players, you think he sticks around in Chicago his entire career?

I don't think Michael Jordan would have won a single ring with Lebron's supporting cast.

(waits for the angry, rambling responses)

The majority think lebron isn't top four caliber. Stop trying to convince people the sky is red.

JordansBulls
02-12-2014, 01:09 PM
I've already gone over this a million times, so I don't feel like recapping everything. The guy has four MVPs and could have more, has won back-to-back Finals with four overall Finals appearances in his career and his advanced numbers in both the regular and postseason speak for themselves. His longevity and career accolades may not be as impressive as some with longer careers, but his peak is arguably better than any player other than MJ.

First off, if Pippen was injured in the 97 Finals, the numbers certainly don't show it. He averaged 20/8/4/2/2 in that series and posted a higher TS% than Jordan did. Maybe you're referring to 98? Pippen still averaged 16/7/5/2/1 in that series, and Kukoc threw in 15/5/3/1 just fore good measure. As far as MJ dominating a league of big men, I fail to see how that proves anything. He also had excellent defensive bigs on all six of his championship teams. And it's not like he went head-to-head with those big men every night


The NBA is so pathetic or the East is pathetic, because I think the latter is correct and the former is so very wrong. The West is completely stacked and even if the Heat get a couple of easy first-round games, the ECF and the Finals will be seriously tough series.

As for the whole "Lebron joined two Hall of Famers" argument, I think I'm pretty much down with that ********. I'm convinced that people who are still pissed about that because they have no knowledge whatsoever about the history of the game. You could look at any all-time great in the top 25 and they ALL teamed up with another elite player or two in their eras. Some just got luckier than others and didn't have to get traded or sign with that team in free agency. That doesn't make them saints. It makes them lucky.



See above comment. Also, this makes no sense. Why would Jordan leave a team with a better No. 2 in Pippen (who fit his style better) and one of the best defensive bigs and rebounders in the history of the game to randomly join two players who aren't arguably any better? That's my point. Guys like Jordan didn't have to leave their teams because they were given great players without having to go anywhere. If you had given Jordan Mo Williams and Zydrunas Ilgauskas as his two best players, you think he sticks around in Chicago his entire career?

I don't think Michael Jordan would have won a single ring with Lebron's supporting cast.

(waits for the angry, rambling responses)

How so?

Lebron played with 3 guys who won titles as the man in Ben Wallace, Shaq and Wade. Not to mention Wade had over a 30+ PER in the finals when Lebron sucked balls and lost the team the title.
Not to mention has had 2 other allstars on his team each year and won due to teams having there top players out for the series.
Hell MJ was the only star on 2 of his title teams.
Not to mention Lebron players who won titles as the man in order to win titles.
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html



Going to Miami, it isn’t going to be LeBron’s team. It is Wade’s team because he’s been there and has won a championship there. So the obvious point was that this would not be LeBron’s championship if he gets one or more, that he needed to go get help from a champion and another star.



And what makes Pippen a better player than Drexler when Drexler led a team to the finals twice as the man and even won a title leading the team in win shares. Pippen never led any team in win shares and the furthest he got was round 2. Hell even in 1994 he didn't led the team in win shares in the playoffs despite all the credit he gets.

Leach11
02-12-2014, 01:22 PM
How so?

Lebron played with 3 guys who won titles as the man in Ben Wallace, Shaq and Wade. Not to mention Wade had over a 30+ PER in the finals when Lebron sucked balls and lost the team the title.

Lol, so age doesn't matter then?

JordansBulls
02-12-2014, 01:27 PM
Lol, so age doesn't matter then?

Ben Wallace was 33, Shaq 37, Pippen 33 but then people seem to bring up Rodman who also was 37.

3RDASYSTEM
02-12-2014, 01:35 PM
Until he wins a title without a super team, he doesn't crack my top 9.

How did that work out for RUSSELL/WILT/JORDAN/MAGIC/BIRD, all won with superteams(owners and coaches included)

RODMAN won 5 titles between badboys(beating JORDAN's bulls) then teaming up with him to 3peat, does that make his rebounding any less or did he grab all those rebounds because he was on a superteam?

Baller1
02-12-2014, 01:39 PM
The idea of winning without a super team is such ********. All legends won with super teams... And the ones that didn't have a superb cast around them? They didn't win. Winning a championship requires a "super team", simple as that.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 01:42 PM
The idea of winning without a super team is such ********. All legends won with super teams... And the ones that didn't have a superb cast around them? They didn't win. Winning a championship requires a "super team", simple as that.

not Kobe. he could have won without the help he just never got the chance. :rolleyes:

nickdymez
02-12-2014, 01:42 PM
The idea of winning without a super team is such ********. All legends won with super teams... And the ones that didn't have a superb cast around them? They didn't win. Winning a championship requires a "super team", simple as that.

None of the all time greats collaborated with one another publicly to create a super team. I think thats the point.

JordansBulls
02-12-2014, 01:44 PM
The idea of winning without a super team is such ********. All legends won with super teams... And the ones that didn't have a superb cast around them? They didn't win. Winning a championship requires a "super team", simple as that.

I wouldn't call a team a supersteam with only 2 allstars on the team. Superteams begin with 3 allstars on the squad yearly. The Heat have had 3 allstars the last 4 years in the allstar game. Some of those teams only had one allstar in 1991 and 1998 Bulls, 1994 Rockets, 2003 Spurs, 2011 Mavs, 1975 Warriors.

beliges
02-12-2014, 01:45 PM
The idea of winning without a super team is such ********. All legends won with super teams... And the ones that didn't have a superb cast around them? They didn't win. Winning a championship requires a "super team", simple as that.

not Kobe. he could have won without the help he just never got the chance. :rolleyes:

Kobe from 00-02 had a great team. Kobe from 09-10 had a good team. So far lebron has won since being on a great team. Nobody should expect him to win without talent because its impossible. However, if he does plan on being one of the all-timers, he certainly needs to accomplish a hell of a lot more than just two rings while playing on a great team.

nickdymez
02-12-2014, 01:46 PM
I'm sure you looked them up by now and realize you were wrong, good day sir.

lmfao

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 01:51 PM
None of the all time greats collaborated with one another publicly to create a super team. I think thats the point.

is that the point? i mean i can understand being a little bothered by it initially, but shouldn't we consider the amount of talent a player had as help regardless of whether it was luck or by choice?

beliges
02-12-2014, 01:53 PM
None of the all time greats collaborated with one another publicly to create a super team. I think thats the point.

is that the point? i mean i can understand being a little bothered by it initially, but shouldn't we consider the amount of talent a player had as help regardless of whether it was luck or by choice?

Well it does seem like these all timers were able to have championship teams built around them while lebron couldn't. However that's besides the point. Now lebron has all the talent in the world around him and should be able to win just like kobe, magic, duncan, shaq etc..have won.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 01:55 PM
I wouldn't call a team a supersteam with only 2 allstars on the team. Superteams begin with 3 allstars on the squad yearly. The Heat have had 3 allstars the last 4 years in the allstar game. Some of those teams only had one allstar in 1991 and 1998 Bulls, 1994 Rockets, 2003 Spurs, 2011 Mavs, 1975 Warriors.

why are you so hung up on artificial constructs such as all-star appearances?

wouldn't you agree with me that defence and rebounding are two of the most under-appreciated commodities when it comes to all-star recognition? and your team had two of the best who've ever played the game on that end. seems strange that you don't want to acknowledge that.

Me and Mr. T
02-12-2014, 02:05 PM
Top 10? Maybe. Top 4? Give me a break.

NJBASEBALL22
02-12-2014, 02:06 PM
I don't know if anyone saw on ESPN this morning... They showed win shares thru first 10 seasons. It was 1- Wilt, 2- Jabbar, 3- Oscar, 4- LbJ(153), 5-MJ(150)

The flaw is that they included MJ's 2nd and 10th seasons... Where he only played 18 and 17 games. WS is a cumulative stat. When removing those two seasons and adding his 11th, MJ is at 166.5. Add in this 12th season which would be his 10th full season, MJ is at 185 total WS.

That total places him second behind Wilt's 190 and Jabbar's 175.

SportsFanatic10
02-12-2014, 02:06 PM
he'll be right by the time he's done.

nickdymez
02-12-2014, 02:07 PM
is that the point? i mean i can understand being a little bothered by it initially, but shouldn't we consider the amount of talent a player had as help regardless of whether it was luck or by choice?

I can understand Lebron recruiting Lance Stephenson, James Harden, etc. Those types of guys. He went out and got the best guys in the NBA that he could get. Shows a cowardly trait. Kobe went out and recruited Ron Artest, Raja Bell, etc. Kobe wants to BEAT the best.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 02:09 PM
Kobe from 00-02 had a great team. Kobe from 09-10 had a good team. So far lebron has won since being on a great team. Nobody should expect him to win without talent because its impossible.

However, if he does plan on being one of the all-timers, he certainly needs to accomplish a hell of a lot more than just two rings while playing on a great team.
while i agree with the bolded it seems to me that there is an obvious question that needs to be asked based on these two separate statements:

in the first statement you are saying that good teammates are absolutely essential to winning. great. i agree.

in the second statement you are saying that if you have great talent you absolutely must get rings to validate your status as an all-time great.

my question then, is how do you reconcile these 2 statements? if it takes great teammates to have a chance at winning, it stands to reason that their performance in the post-season is also critical to whether you ultimately win championships. in other words, there are plenty of variables, only one of which the player has complete control over - his own performance.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 02:22 PM
I can understand Lebron recruiting Lance Stephenson, James Harden, etc. Those types of guys. He went out and got the best guys in the NBA that he could get. Shows a cowardly trait. Kobe went out and recruited Ron Artest, Raja Bell, etc. Kobe wants to BEAT the best.

and you don't think the fact that Kobe had guys like Shaq and Pau already on his team, plus the fact that his team wouldn't have had the cap space to bring in a superstar should be considered when you say with certainty that he is any different?

Baller1
02-12-2014, 02:26 PM
None of the all time greats collaborated with one another publicly to create a super team. I think thats the point.

They didn't need to because they had their "super teams" catered to them.

beliges
02-12-2014, 02:26 PM
while i agree with the bolded it seems to me that there is an obvious question that needs to be asked based on these two separate statements:

in the first statement you are saying that good teammates are absolutely essential to winning. great. i agree.

in the second statement you are saying that if you have great talent you absolutely must get rings to validate your status as an all-time great.

my question then, is how do you reconcile these 2 statements? if it takes great teammates to have a chance at winning, it stands to reason that their performance in the post-season is also critical to whether you ultimately win championships. in other words, there are plenty of variables, only one of which the player has complete control over - his own performance.

I am not saying it takes the most talented in the league to win rings. However, it most definitely takes a good team to win titles and what great players throughout the history of the game have proven is that they can have good enough teams built around them to win titles.

Kobe's 00-02 teams were great and he won 3 in a row. Kobe's 09-10 teams were good, but far from great. But he still won 2 in a row. But yes, absolutely and undoubtedly if you are on a team that is stacked like the Heat are and have been, it is EXPECTED you win. Especially if you are publicly proclaiming that you will be top 5 all time, you better win and win and win and win just like those guys you are trying to pass have done. Look, Lebron is a great fantastic player. One of the all time greats. But, if he is going to get on that level of MJ, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, etc...(the best of the best), he will not get there with just two rings, especially on such a talented squad.

TheIlladelph16
02-12-2014, 02:27 PM
Lol, so age doesn't matter then?

No it doesn't to him. JB has been copy pasting this whole schtick since I have been posting on this site. Its nonsense, and everyone besides him knows it.

Baller1
02-12-2014, 02:29 PM
No it doesn't to him. JB has been copy pasting this whole schtick since I have been posting on this site. Its nonsense, and everyone besides him knows it.

He's been doing that since looong before you joined the site, haha.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 02:30 PM
I am not saying it takes the most talented in the league to win rings. However, it most definitely takes a good team to win titles and what great players throughout the history of the game have proven is that they can have good enough teams built around them to win titles.

Kobe's 00-02 teams were great and he won 3 in a row. Kobe's 09-10 teams were good, but far from great. But he still won 2 in a row. But yes, absolutely and undoubtedly if you are on a team that is stacked like the Heat are and have been, it is EXPECTED you win. Especially if you are publicly proclaiming that you will be top 5 all time, you better win and win and win and win just like those guys you are trying to pass have done. Look, Lebron is a great fantastic player. One of the all time greats. But, if he is going to get on that level of MJ, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, etc...(the best of the best), he will not get there with just two rings, especially on such a talented squad.
well, i can definitely say that even though i don't share the "you must win X rings to be better than player Y" approach that you have, you are one of the more reasonable individuals around here of those that hold Kobe in higher regard than Lebron.

TheIlladelph16
02-12-2014, 02:31 PM
is that the point? i mean i can understand being a little bothered by it initially, but shouldn't we consider the amount of talent a player had as help regardless of whether it was luck or by choice?

Your responding to the intellectual equivalent of a bag of bricks. It ain't worth it dude.

TheIlladelph16
02-12-2014, 02:31 PM
He's been doing that since looong before you joined the site, haha.

Haha I figured that was the case. I do admire his persistence with it, even though I don't remotely agree with the actual statement.

JordansBulls
02-12-2014, 02:32 PM
why are you so hung up on artificial constructs such as all-star appearances?

wouldn't you agree with me that defence and rebounding are two of the most under-appreciated commodities when it comes to all-star recognition? and your team had two of the best who've ever played the game on that end. seems strange that you don't want to acknowledge that.

I never said it wasn't important, I was responding to someone who said the team was a superteam. And it was not, a superteam is a team that regularly has 3 or more allstars and/or 3 or more franchise players on the team. That is what the Heat had with Lebron, Wade, Bosh where each player was a franchise player and an allstar yearly together.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 02:54 PM
I never said it wasn't important, I was responding to someone who said the team was a superteam. And it was not, a superteam is a team that regularly has 3 or more allstars and/or 3 or more franchise players on the team. That is what the Heat had with Lebron, Wade, Bosh where each player was a franchise player and an allstar yearly together.

again, you are side-stepping. would you rather have an "all-star" or a HOF in his prime?

TDE
02-12-2014, 02:57 PM
How many rings would T-Mac have now if he teamed up with Duncan and Jason Kidd in their prime? Or Kobe teamed up with Garnett & Nash? I understand what some posters are saying...I mean what if Jordan never got Pippen, how many rings would he have gotten?

beliges
02-12-2014, 03:02 PM
again, you are side-stepping. would you rather have an "all-star" or a HOF in his prime?

Are you trying to insinuate that Wade and Ray Allen are not HOFers?

Having an all-star big man, a HOF SG and the greatest shooter of all time coupled with a great supporting cast is as good as it gets.

JordansBulls
02-12-2014, 03:02 PM
How many rings would T-Mac have now if he teamed up with Duncan and Jason Kidd in their prime? Or Kobe teamed up with Garnett & Nash? I understand what some posters are saying...I mean what if Jordan never got Pippen, how many rings would he have gotten?

But Pippen came in as a role player. The logic of teamming up only applies if the said player is going to team up with a guy who is already a superstar. That wasn't the case with Pippen.

JordansBulls
02-12-2014, 03:05 PM
again, you are side-stepping. would you rather have an "all-star" or a HOF in his prime?

But Pippen was no allstar nor HOF by 1991. Not even close.

Wade was already a superstar and a guy who led a team to the title as a man by the time Lebron came. In fact it was the only reason why Lebron went there. Because he needed to team up with someone who got the job done as the man already. Both Wade and Bosh were franchise players, Pippen was not when he came to Chicago.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 03:11 PM
Are you trying to insinuate that Wade and Ray Allen are not HOFers?

Having an all-star big man, a HOF SG and the greatest shooter of all time coupled with a great supporting cast is as good as it gets.
god no. not sure how you got that.

HeaTxRipZz
02-12-2014, 03:12 PM
But Pippen was no allstar nor HOF by 1991. Not even close.

Wade was already a superstar and a guy who led a team to the title as a man by the time Lebron came. In fact it was the only reason why Lebron went there. Because he needed to team up with someone who got the job done as the man already. Both Wade and Bosh were franchise players, Pippen was not when he came to Chicago.

Scottie made his first allstar appearance in 1990. Even then that speaks for one title out of 6. I agree with everyone here. While it was built differently, the 90s Bulls were a super team

JordansBulls
02-12-2014, 03:13 PM
Scottie made his first allstar appearance in 1990. Even then that speaks for one title out of 6. I agree with everyone here. While it was built differently, the 90s Bulls were a super team

He didnt make it in 1998 either. And no they were not a superteam. If they were a superteam than so were the 1995 Rockets, 2003 Spurs, 2004 Pistons, 2011 Mavs.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2014, 03:13 PM
How many rings would T-Mac have now if he teamed up with Duncan and Jason Kidd in their prime? Or Kobe teamed up with Garnett & Nash? I understand what some posters are saying...I mean what if Jordan never got Pippen, how many rings would he have gotten?

quite possibly zero which is why numbers over rings any day when comparing players.