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jerellh528
02-05-2014, 04:19 PM
Most people already have Kobe's legacy already set in stone have Kobe somewhere in the 4-12 range all time. Now I'm asking in YOUR opinion is there anything else Kobe can do for the duration of his career that can move him up or down in legacy? Whether it be win another ring, lose all athleticism and average sub par numbers, win an MVP etc. or would you say anything he plays for now is just residual? No hate or homerism in this thread please, just state what he could do to make him go up or down and discuss. (Within the realm of reason) so obviously not winning back to back to back dpoy or anything like that.

Jamiecballer
02-05-2014, 04:23 PM
nothing. rings mean nothing to me, his place is already set.

jerellh528
02-05-2014, 04:27 PM
nothing. rings mean nothing to me, his place is already set.

Rings mean nothing to you? Wow you must be a very easy going fan. What happens if your team ever wins one?

Jamiecballer
02-05-2014, 04:29 PM
Rings mean nothing to you? Wow you must be a very easy going fan. What happens if your team ever wins one?

we were talking about a players legacy, not my interest in seeing my team win a championship. i would go banana's in that case.

nickdymez
02-05-2014, 04:30 PM
nothing. rings mean nothing to me, his place is already set.

Your team plays to win. How could rings mean nothing?

As for the question. I think Kobe's legacy is pretty much set in stone. I dont think he could do anything else to move him up or down.

Jamiecballer
02-05-2014, 04:33 PM
Your team plays to win. How could rings mean nothing?

As for the question. I think Kobe's legacy is pretty much set in stone. I dont think he could do anything else to move him up or down.
we are talking about how a player should be remembered compared to their peers i thought, not whether i would care if my team won.

as mentioned i would go bat **** crazy to see the Raptors win.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 04:36 PM
My personal opinion:

Kobe ranks in the 8-10 range for me any given day. I don't think there is anything he can do to move up, and there is nothing he can do to drop. I say this, because I think Kobe's days as a top 5 player in the game are gone. There are also some young guys that have pushed themselves by him. And even if he plays 5 more years and sucks, I won't hold it against him at all.

I hate the guy. But if I had to describe him to my grandkids (If I ever have any), I will say he was one of the most competitive athletes I have ever seen, who went through unstoppable stretches of play, was a stone cold killer in the playoffs, and was one of the best players I have seen with my own eyes. His longevity as a top player blows my mind.

Still hate him though haha

jerellh528
02-05-2014, 04:40 PM
My personal opinion:

Kobe ranks in the 8-10 range for me any given day. I don't think there is anything he can do to move up, and there is nothing he can do to drop. I say this, because I think Kobe's days as a top 5 player in the game are gone. There are also some young guys that have pushed themselves by him. And even if he plays 5 more years and sucks, I won't hold it against him at all.

I hate the guy. But if I had to describe him to my grandkids (If I ever have any), I will say he was one of the most competitive athletes I have ever seen, who went through unstoppable stretches of play, was a stone cold killer in the playoffs, and was one of the best players I have seen with my own eyes. His longevity as a top player blows my mind.

Still hate him though haha

Good post, but just to play devils advoctate, would it possibly solidify him more in the 8 range as opposed to 10 in your rankings if he did come back as a top 5 player for some ungodly reason and lead the lakers to a top 5 ish seed in the west next year with a new found efficiency due to his injury and evolving his game yet again?

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 04:42 PM
Good post, but just to play devils advoctate, would it possibly solidify him more in the 8 range as opposed to 10 in your rankings if he did come back as a top 5 player for some ungodly reason and lead the lakers to a top 5 ish seed in the west next year with a new found efficiency due to his injury and evolving his game yet again?

yes. I just can't see it happening personally. The west is so stacked, and many of the teams are young.

ManRam
02-05-2014, 04:45 PM
Very hard to imagine he can do anything to climb up given his age, injuries and the state of the Lakers. He'll probably pass Jordan to grab the #3 all time points spot, but I think most view that with a huge grain of salt. He might pass a few more guys on other notable all-time counting stats ranks, but again, his best days are behind him. Unless he shocks the world next year and somehow leads the Lakers to another long playoff run/championship, it's hard to imagine there's a lot more room for upward movement. Unfortunately, I think it is safe to assume he won't, however.

Chronz
02-05-2014, 04:51 PM
Its too hard to rank individuals with any consistent criteria so I just lump everyone behind MJ in a single tier, you can make a case against or for any of these guys
Tier 2: KAJ-Wilt-Shaq-Dream-Magic-Bird-Duncan-Kobe

Tier 3: Moses and Bron

abe_froman
02-05-2014, 04:51 PM
no,there really isnt anything he can do to affect his all time ranking in a major way.at this point he will never good enough to overtake someone like mj as his prime is past and you cant take away what he already accomplished.so that range(the top 13 but not at the top) ...now where in that 2-13 range will always be debated and a matter of personal opinion.the only thing that can affect his ranking is what younger superstars end up doing in their career(he could only get bumped down if cats like kd or wiggins win like 5+ rings in their careers).but for now,the 2nd tier rating for him is set in stone

Teeboy1487
02-05-2014, 04:56 PM
I think Kobe's legacy is already set and there is nothing more to add. Top 6-10 player of all time and arguably the 2nd best SG of all time after Jordan. I want him to return to form so badly next year. This year, I want him to sit out and save his body for the last two years of his career. I would love if the Lakers could contend in those two years, but I would be happy with one. Kobe has a very tough mountain to climb. He has to beat age and injuries which is damn tough. First thing first, the Lakers have to get better. The only thing Kobe can do now is go out with a bang. He deserves a fitting end to his career.

RaiderLakersA's
02-05-2014, 05:05 PM
Yes. He can move up if he wins another ring as a starter. He can move up if he overtakes Wilt's single game scoring record, especially if that occurs in a Game 7 in the Finals. He can move up if he plays for 3-4 more years and in that period of time increases his shooting efficiency to a blistering 70% or higher from above the 3 point line and 85% from anywhere below it. He can move up if he owns the scoring record when he retires. He can move up if...

In short there is always the possibility that he can move up, because there's always something greater to shoot for.

Tony_Starks
02-05-2014, 05:09 PM
Got him locked in at top 5. Only way I can see moving him up is if he sips from the fountain of youth and somehow miraculously delivers another title within the next few years and walks away.

But that pipedream aside I basically look at the rest of his time as the icing on the cake.

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 05:11 PM
My personal opinion:

Kobe ranks in the 8-10 range for me any given day. I don't think there is anything he can do to move up, and there is nothing he can do to drop. I say this, because I think Kobe's days as a top 5 player in the game are gone. There are also some young guys that have pushed themselves by him. And even if he plays 5 more years and sucks, I won't hold it against him at all.

I hate the guy. But if I had to describe him to my grandkids (If I ever have any), I will say he was one of the most competitive athletes I have ever seen, who went through unstoppable stretches of play, was a stone cold killer in the playoffs, and was one of the best players I have seen with my own eyes. His longevity as a top player blows my mind.
Still hate him though haha

how can you state the bolded and then say you hate the guy lol. . wouldnt any of those reasons make you like him ?

ManRam
02-05-2014, 05:17 PM
how can you state the bolded and then say you hate the guy lol. . wouldnt any of those reasons make you like him ?

Well, for me personally...I HATE a lot of athletes, but that doesn't mean I can't respect them. Doesn't mean you have to be an irrational hater. I hate, for example, Peyton Manning, but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like he isn't one of the absolute best ever and didn't have an absolutely historical season.

You can hate guys who have exemplary characteristics. I'm sure you do too.

abe_froman
02-05-2014, 05:27 PM
how can you state the bolded and then say you hate the guy lol. . wouldnt any of those reasons make you like him ?
no.
personal feelings about someone(like/hate),have other factors to it than playing ability,ect. i dislike lebron james,but still can acknowledge his greatness

ManRam
02-05-2014, 05:27 PM
I don't think it's unfathomable that he could do harm to his legacy. I don't think he can do anything that will make people think less of him in the present, but for people looking back 20 years from now, I think he could. We'll be willing to say "oh, he's just old and the fact that he's been this good for this long already is amazing...so I'll let this side". But that context will slowly get removed over time.

Say he drags on for 3 more years at low efficiency with no team success. With the way we look at individual basketball players and the gradual shift we've seen in player-evaluation, I think that could hurt him in the long run. He'll always be the winner with great longevity, but the deeper and more "advanced" looks at his stats aren't his strongest argument. A shift away from per game obsession and a shift towards these more advanced metrics isn't something that's going to stop. Tacking on some bad seasons onto his career as a whole, and 20 years from now people might be less enamored than many were in the present. Context becomes harder to see the longer we're removed...so that could theoretically hurt his legacy in the long run.

I didn't hurt Jordan a ton, but I do think his last two years were at least a tad bit detrimental to his legacy in some people's eyes. At the very least many just try to forget it.

Not saying any of that will happen...but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. Mostly, I think at least in the short term his legacy is pretty rock solid with little room to shift either way.

numba1CHANGsta
02-05-2014, 05:32 PM
Top 10 all time
2nd greatest SG of all time

IMO I think Kobe plays for another 3-4 years and wins at least one more ring, with that his legacy will be set and will be in the Top 10 of all time for a really long time

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 05:37 PM
how can you state the bolded and then say you hate the guy lol. . wouldnt any of those reasons make you like him ?

I can separate my respect for a basketball PLAYER, and not like the man.

TDE
02-05-2014, 05:53 PM
Sure can, but very doubtful.

He can come back to pre-injury lead his team to 1 or two rings, get Finals MVP for both runs, get the most All-star appearances, get the most all time 1st teams, and the all-time scoring record.

With: 7x champion, 4x FMVP 20x allstar 18x 1st team, scoring record, MVP,20yr career etc. will propel him over a lot of players and put him in anyones top 3. BUT very doubtful :laugh2:

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 05:54 PM
Well, for me personally...I HATE a lot of athletes, but that doesn't mean I can't respect them. Doesn't mean you have to be an irrational hater. I hate, for example, Peyton Manning, but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like he isn't one of the absolute best ever and didn't have an absolutely historical season.

You can hate guys who have exemplary characteristics. I'm sure you do too.

for example I disliked tim duncan, found him boring.. until my respect for his game out grew my personal feelings. at the end of the day I dont know tim duncan. how can I hate him or love him ?


no.
personal feelings about someone(like/hate),have other factors to it than playing ability,ect. i dislike lebron james,but still can acknowledge his greatness

ok, but were talking about a players legacy. if you have soo many good things to say about how he played the game how can you hate him as a player? thats what I dont get it.


I can separate my respect for a basketball PLAYER, and not like the man.

the way you spoke of him, sounded like you respect the hell out of his game. thats why i was a bit thrown off. none of us know these people off court. you dont know the man personally.. how can you not like or hate someone you dont know.

ManRam
02-05-2014, 05:57 PM
Even if Kobe comes back next year and plays the best basketball he has in 5 years, I just can't see how he'll be on a team good enough to get by some of those other WC team. I think it's essentially an impossibility to surround him with championship talent over the span of one off-season. Maybe trading the #1 overall pick for an established star. Signing another high-priced player. But then you still have the entirety of the roster to fill with nothing but tiny contracts.

Hell, will say it. The Lakers winning a ring next year is an impossibility.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 05:58 PM
for example I disliked tim duncan, found him boring.. until my respect for his game out grew my personal feelings. at the end of the day I dont know tim duncan. how can I hate him or love him ?



ok, but were talking about a players legacy. if you have soo many good things to say about how he played the game how can you hate him as a player? thats what I dont get it.



do you know him personally ? seems black and white to me. either you like his game or you dont.

admiring someones athletic ability and a sport and liking them are different things. I don't want to get this off topic, but ever since the moment he entered the NBA, he has put me off with the way he acts/is. I just don't like the guy at all, and his fans made me resent him even more. Doesn't mean I don't understand his place in history, and that I find it awesome that I was able to watch him play. I just don't want to have a beer with the guy...

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 06:03 PM
Top 10 all time
2nd greatest SG of all time

IMO I think Kobe plays for another 3-4 years and wins at least one more ring, with that his legacy will be set and will be in the Top 10 of all time for a really long time


I think at this point he can only damage his legacy..

if he comes back and isnt a super star level type player and decides to not accept it like allan iverson, and refuses to play a lesser role for the betterment of the team.. it can only tarnish his legacy.

abe_froman
02-05-2014, 06:03 PM
the way you spoke of him, sounded like you respect the hell out of his game. thats why i was a bit thrown off. none of us know these people off court. you dont know the man personally.. how can you not like or hate someone you dont know.
well likes not act like kobe has been a choir boy.he has acted like selfish ,arrogant jerk(that can the wrong way),the allegations of rape,ect. there are plenty of things that can get people to not like him personally,but being a great player you can respect and acknowledge that aspect.

some people can separate personal feelings from judging a person's work ...i didnt think that it was that baffling of a concept

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 06:04 PM
admiring someones athletic ability and a sport and liking them are different things. I don't want to get this off topic, but ever since the moment he entered the NBA, he has put me off with the way he acts/is. I just don't like the guy at all, and his fans made me resent him even more. Doesn't mean I don't understand his place in history, and that I find it awesome that I was able to watch him play. I just don't want to have a beer with the guy...

ok so you dont like his attitude, demeanor etc. fair enough.

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 06:05 PM
well likes not act like he's been a choir boy.he has acted like selfish ,arrogant jerk(that can the wrong way),the allegations of rape,ect. there are plenty of things that can get people to not like him personally,but being a great player you can respect and acknowledge that aspect.

who likes choir boys anyways..

jerellh528
02-05-2014, 06:06 PM
Even if Kobe comes back next year and plays the best basketball he has in 5 years, I just can't see how he'll be on a team good enough to get by some of those other WC team. I think it's essentially an impossibility to surround him with championship talent over the span of one off-season. Maybe trading the #1 overall pick for an established star. Signing another high-priced player. But then you still have the entirety of the roster to fill with nothing but tiny contracts.

Hell, will say it. The Lakers winning a ring next year is an impossibility.

You know ken ham got raped yesterday by bill nye in a creationism vs naturalism debate right?

ManRam
02-05-2014, 06:06 PM
the way you spoke of him, sounded like you respect the hell out of his game. thats why i was a bit thrown off. none of us know these people off court.

with that logic everyone would love all the great players. i think everyone has it in them to say nice things about the all-time greats. hell, i swear to god I've seen amos1er and nickydymez say nice things about lebron. that sure as **** doesn't mean they like them :laugh:

can you only say nice things about guys you really really root for? better yet, if you say nice things about a player does that mean you love them? no. you're seeming to say that that's the case.

i could right a book on ONLY the greatness of kobe, shaq, iverson, melo, etc. but that doesn't change the fact that i dislike all of them.

respect and adoration are two completely different things. look at it team-wise if it's easier to understand. i respect the hell out of the lakers organization. their legacy is potentially unmatched. the stars that have played there make your jaw drop. for decades the ownership was top class. however, **** THEM! **** THEM HARD! or hey, look at it politically. i can say nice things about a lot of conservative politicians i disagree with and to an extent hate. i have said them frequently. doesn't mean i root for them.

see. ;)

this is a silly debate. but very psd-like. only say nice things about those your a homer for and always slam those you don't...that's the expectations.

ManRam
02-05-2014, 06:07 PM
You know ken ham got raped yesterday by bill nye in a creationism vs naturalism debate right?

you know i'm rocking this sig very sarcastically, right?

JasonJohnHorn
02-05-2014, 06:07 PM
There isn't anything he could to do move down outside of off court stuff that could destroy his reputation. I mean, he just had a major injury at the age of 35. If he comes back and plays poorly and finishes out his contract playing $#!TTY basketball, nobody is going to hold that against him. He's older, he's had a major injury, but there are two more huge paychecks for him to collect and I don't think anybody would blame him for that.

As to moving up, if he managed a couple more rings, that would help, though that seems unlikely given the Lakers' lack of cap space and lottery picks over the next couple of seasons. They have one this year, but NOT next year. If they get lucky in the draft, things could change, but.... we'll have to wait and see.

Aside from winning more rings, I think seeing him play at a high-level until the age of 40 and topping Kareem for all-time points would be the only other thing that would move him up the ladder.

jerellh528
02-05-2014, 06:08 PM
you know i'm rocking this sig very sarcastically, right?

Oh haha my bad

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 06:09 PM
ok so you dont like his attitude, demeanor etc. fair enough.

and plenty of other stuff. Look, MJ would be hated by the masses if he were in his peak today. Social media and chat boards have ignited irrational hatred for athletes at a far greater rate than years ago, when it was simply a, "that dude kills my team, I hate him but respect him" type thing. We basically get to see these athletes from age 18-retirement, and know so much about their personal lives.

In this day and age, its very common to hate an athlete, but respect his abilities on the court/field. Kobe, A-Rod, Tiger, Manny Ramirez, etc, etc.

ManRam
02-05-2014, 06:10 PM
and plenty of other stuff. Look, MJ would be hated by the masses if he were in his peak today. Social media and chat boards have ignited irrational hatred for athletes at a far greater rate than years ago, when it was simply a, "that dude kills my team, I hate him but respect him" type thing. We basically get to see these athletes from age 18-retirement, and know so much about their personal lives.

In this day and age, its very common to hate an athlete, but respect his abilities on the court/field. Kobe, A-Rod, Tiger, Manny Ramirez, etc, etc.

You bite your ****ing tongue!

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 06:13 PM
You bite your ****ing tongue!

shut it, your boy was an a-hole..

jerellh528
02-05-2014, 06:13 PM
I hate Floyd mayweather but respect him as an athlete for his ability. He's probably the biggest douche out there.

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 06:15 PM
with that logic everyone would love all the great players. i think everyone has it in them to say nice things about the all-time greats. hell, i swear to god I've seen amos1er and nickydymez say nice things about lebron. that sure as **** doesn't mean they like them :laugh:

can you only say nice things about guys you really really root for? better yet, if you say nice things about a player does that mean you love them? no. you're seeming to say that that's the case.

i could right a book on ONLY the greatness of kobe, shaq, iverson, melo, etc. but that doesn't change the fact that i dislike all of them.

respect and adoration are two completely different things. look at it team-wise if it's easier to understand. i respect the hell out of the lakers organization. their legacy is potentially unmatched. the stars that have played there make your jaw drop. for decades the ownership was top class. however, **** THEM! **** THEM HARD! or hey, look at it politically. i can say nice things about a lot of conservative politicians i disagree with and to an extent hate. i have said them frequently. doesn't mean i root for them.

see. ;)

this is a silly debate. but very psd-like. only say nice things about those your a homer for and always slam those you don't...that's the expectations.


"I will say he was one of the most competitive athletes I have ever seen, who went through unstoppable stretches of play, was a stone cold killer in the playoffs, and was one of the best players I have seen with my own eyes. His longevity as a top player blows my mind."

this was never a debate. hawkeye really puts some emphasis on kobes greatness and then says he hates him. I consider him an honest and fair poster so my question to him was genuine and I think he answered it.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 06:20 PM
I hate Floyd mayweather but respect him as an athlete for his ability. He's probably the biggest douche out there.

great example. I wouldn't put my thoughts on Kobe on the same level as Mayweather or A-Rod for instance, and I am a Yankees fan. I hate the guy

Oh, and Ty Cobb was easily the worst human of any great athlete ever.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 06:22 PM
"I will say he was one of the most competitive athletes I have ever seen, who went through unstoppable stretches of play, was a stone cold killer in the playoffs, and was one of the best players I have seen with my own eyes. His longevity as a top player blows my mind."

this was never a debate. hawkeye really puts some emphasis on kobes greatness and then says he hates him. I consider him an honest and fair poster so my question to him was genuine and I think he answered it.

Interesting enough, now that the Lakers suck and are not winning, and Kobe's career is winding down, my hatred for him has lessened. I am sure that in 10 years, I will probably put aside my personal feelings for him to a large degree, and my respect for him will grow even more.

Sports and its players bring out all sorts of emotions.

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 06:46 PM
Interesting enough, now that the Lakers suck and are not winning, and Kobe's career is winding down, my hatred for him has lessened. I am sure that in 10 years, I will probably put aside my personal feelings for him to a large degree, and my respect for him will grow even more.

Sports and its players bring out all sorts of emotions.

i know that in the last 10-15 years social media has really grown and yes players today are scrutinized way, wayyyy more than players in the past.

I just think if your a fan of the game your a fan of that players proffession and not the players personal life. I loved jimmy hendrix but i didnt care that he was a drug addict, I loved biggy and i didnt care if he was criminal.. I didnt love them for all the mistakes they made in their personal lives. I loved them for the entertainment value they offered, and how they great they were at what they did..

is it fair to judge any entertainer for what they do in their personal time ? i dont know, but i do agree with you that with social media its become a lot easier to do.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 06:56 PM
i know that in the last 10-15 years social media has really grown and yes players today are scrutinized way, wayyyy more than players in the past.

I just think if your a fan of the game your a fan of that players proffession and not the players personal life. I loved jimmy hendrix but i didnt care that he was a drug addict, I loved biggy and i didnt care if he was criminal.. I didnt love them for all the mistakes they made in their personal lives. I loved them for the entertainment value they offered, and how they great they were at what they did..

is it fair to judge any entertainer for what they do in their personal time ? i dont know, but i do agree with you that with social media its become a lot easier to do.

I think its absolutely fair to judge an entertainer for what they do in there personal life. Athletes are entertainers. And its not just that, he just rubbed me the wrong way day 1, his fans irritate me, and I never liked him as a person. Doesn't mean I don't respect his ability to play basketball.

I liked Biggie, but he was a scumbag. Doesn't mean I can't like his music, just means I don't respect him as a man.

Lakers + Giants
02-05-2014, 06:59 PM
My personal opinion:

Kobe ranks in the 8-10 range for me any given day. I don't think there is anything he can do to move up, and there is nothing he can do to drop. I say this, because I think Kobe's days as a top 5 player in the game are gone. There are also some young guys that have pushed themselves by him. And even if he plays 5 more years and sucks, I won't hold it against him at all.

I hate the guy. But if I had to describe him to my grandkids (If I ever have any), I will say he was one of the most competitive athletes I have ever seen, who went through unstoppable stretches of play, was a stone cold killer in the playoffs, and was one of the best players I have seen with my own eyes. His longevity as a top player blows my mind.

Still hate him though haha

You almost made me tear up. That was so cute, especially coming from you hawk. :p

I agree with everything you posted. And I too would have him ranked 8-10 all time, easily.

Nothing will move kobe down anymore. The only way kobe moves up is if he wins another ring as the best player on the lakers, which I can't see happening. So yea, His legacy is set in stone. Top 8-10 player all time. Not bad at all.

KnicksorBust
02-05-2014, 07:02 PM
Kobe is 4th. If somehow the Lakers win another chip or if he goes to a contender and wins one as a top 2-3 player on another team then he can pass KAJ or Magic. Jordan still has a strong edge on him.

Lakers + Giants
02-05-2014, 07:12 PM
Players Kobe can never surpass IMO:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Shaq

The only player I think he would be able to surpass would be Bird, and that would take a remarkable season by kobe. Winning a Finals MVP or a league MVP. Which isn't going to happen.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 07:21 PM
Players Kobe can never surpass IMO:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Shaq

The only player I think he would be able to surpass would be Bird, and that would take a remarkable season by kobe. Winning a Finals MVP or a league MVP. Which isn't going to happen.

I think he already passed Bird. I still have Duncan ahead of him too, and while I don't expect you to agree (which I totally understand), I think LeBron has a case over him already as well, though I get the fact many think he still has a little more to do. Hakeem has a dog in the fight over Kobe as well, but again, an argument can be made for either prolly.

beliges
02-05-2014, 07:23 PM
Players Kobe can never surpass IMO:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Shaq

The only player I think he would be able to surpass would be Bird, and that would take a remarkable season by kobe. Winning a Finals MVP or a league MVP. Which isn't going to happen.

I disagree with your statement here. The ONLY players cannot surpass are MJ, Kareem and Russell. Kobe has done significantly more than Shaq has in his career. Sure, Shaq is probably the most dominant big man since Wilt, but he did not accomplish as much, individually or team-wise than Kobe did.

Magic is a toss-up for me. His career was fantastic but he played for approximately 13 seasons. Kobe has played longer and was better offensively and defensively than Magic was. Kobe was just the better individual player when you take into consideration all aspects of the game. But Magic was a freak of nature, and with both players having 5 titles, I think one could argue either way.

Wilt just did not win enough to be considered that great. His numbers were the most dominant out of anyone in the history of the league and perhaps in the history of sports. But Wilt is a good example of a player that puts up great numbers but did not have what it took to win. Sure he won a couple of titles, but certainly not enough for playing on some great teams.

I think Kobe has easily accomplished enough to be considered top 5. I can also see how some would put him in the 6-8 spot. But objectively speaking, looking at his career, and the 5 titles as well as the individual skill and talent, there is no logical argument that can be made that puts him anywhere outside of the top 8.

RaiderLakersA's
02-05-2014, 07:31 PM
Players Kobe can never surpass IMO:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Shaq

The only player I think he would be able to surpass would be Bird, and that would take a remarkable season by kobe. Winning a Finals MVP or a league MVP. Which isn't going to happen.

I think it all hinges on where a person ranks him now. In my book he has already surpassed Shaq and one more ring puts him past Magic. Then again, I also have Russell no less than 3rd.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 07:37 PM
I think it all hinges on where a person ranks him now. In my book he has already surpassed Shaq and one more ring puts him past Magic. Then again, I also have Russell no less than 3rd.

very true. Chronz posted a tier section, which might be fair. If I did that, it would look like this:

Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Wilt, KAJ
Tier 3: Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird, LeBron, Russell

I think you can argue any player has a case amongst their tier to be the best. I am not as high in Russell as many, but no argument with his winning.

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 07:39 PM
I personally think shaq would own kaj and wilt if they all played together in their prime.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 07:41 PM
I personally think shaq would own kaj and wilt if they all played together in their prime.

they would all own each other. Nobody stops Shaq with his back to the basket. Nobody stops the skyhook, and nobody keeps up with Wilt in the open court or keeps him off the offensive glass.

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 07:43 PM
they would all own each other. Nobody stops Shaq with his back to the basket. Nobody stops the skyhook, and nobody keeps up with Wilt in the open court or keeps him off the offensive glass.

good point.

do you beleive lebron will end up on that first tier with jordan by the end of his career, barring any injuries ?

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 07:46 PM
good point.

do you beleive lebron will end up on that first tier with jordan by the end of his career, barring any injuries ?

eh, probably not for me. 2nd tier in the post listed above I think is very fair.

Chronz
02-05-2014, 07:48 PM
I personally think shaq would own kaj and wilt if they all played together in their prime.

Same here, which is why its so hard to rank players when there are so many things to consider.

If I went with my gut feeling I'd have those 3 centers in a tier by themselves. But then I think of Duncans longevity and Hakeem's magical runs and I want to put their names in that conversation too.

But now I get the feeling that my list would be too bigman heavy, where do you put Bird and Magic in there? I like the 2-way dominance of bigmen but the intangibles these 2 brought were huge for their teams. Kobe lacks in that department but his individual supremacy in comparison to Bird and Magic were always enough for me to have him above them but I think hes clearly a peg below the dominant bigs. Maybe I should rethink my whole Kobe vs Magic/Bird thing, because thats the only way I can come to grips with having those 2 in the tier with the bigs.

Then poor Russell, always felt hes been overrated but to be tossed out of the conversation entirely is to ignore the huge impact he had defensively.

mngopher35
02-05-2014, 08:34 PM
I currently have Kobe at 8 and it would be tough moving up at this point. If he were to have an amazing season (especially with hardware or accolades) it could help him as I don't have him that far behind Duncan/Hakeem. My guess is he will not move up or down anymore based on his play (except when new players move up the list). He is a great competitor though so who really knows.

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 08:49 PM
eh, probably not for me. 2nd tier in the post listed above I think is very fair.

I think he is the only one with a shot at it...

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 09:02 PM
I think he is the only one with a shot at it...

If Durant starts winning a couple of chips and keeps this up for the next 5 years, he may too. I wouldn't have said that a year ago, but he is ridiculous this season.

LeBron is likely a top 5 player ever, Durant still has a lot more to do to even make top 10. Such is being younger...

KnicksorBust
02-05-2014, 09:06 PM
very true. Chronz posted a tier section, which might be fair. If I did that, it would look like this:

Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Wilt, KAJ
Tier 3: Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird, LeBron, Russell

I think you can argue any player has a case amongst their tier to be the best. I am not as high in Russell as many, but no argument with his winning.

I'm surprised to see Magic in Tier 3... Care to explain?

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 09:08 PM
I'm surprised to see Magic in Tier 3... Care to explain?

I think the 2 way centers simply had more influence that are above him. KAJ's longevity, and Wilt's utter dominance also sway me.

Lakers + Giants
02-05-2014, 09:22 PM
I think he already passed Bird. I still have Duncan ahead of him too, and while I don't expect you to agree (which I totally understand), I think LeBron has a case over him already as well, though I get the fact many think he still has a little more to do. Hakeem has a dog in the fight over Kobe as well, but again, an argument can be made for either prolly.

Yea, When I rank my top 10 Duncan and Kobe are both interchangeable IMO and Hakeem is right behind them. I actually agree with you regarding lebron, I also think KD has a great shot of passing KB as well, as long as he doesn't go ringless of course. But going off individual achievements, Durant will pass him barring injury, I think.

Nothing against kobe at all, it doesn't take anything away from the great career he had. I just think those 2 will have better careers than kobe when it's all said and done. It's not a knock on kobe, just praise for other players as well.

BTW, right after I posted what I did I felt like backtracking, I do believe Kobe has already surpassed Bird, I just didn't want to change my post because then that would put kobe at 7th all time(which I think he has a strong case), when I had said he was in the 8-10 range, haha.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 09:27 PM
Yea, When I rank my top 10 Duncan and Kobe are both interchangeable IMO and Hakeem is right behind them. I actually agree with you regarding lebron, I also think KD has a great shot of passing KB as well, as long as he doesn't go ringless of course. But going off individual achievements, Durant will pass him barring injury, I think.

Nothing against kobe at all, it doesn't take anything away from the great career he had. I just think those 2 will have better careers than kobe when it's all said and done. It's not a knock on kobe, just praise for other players as well.

BTW, right after I posted what I did I felt like backtracking, I do believe Kobe has already surpassed Bird, I just didn't want to change my post because then that would put kobe at 7th all time(which I think he has a strong case), when I had said he was in the 8-10 range, haha.

the more I think of it, the more I like a tier system. It is SO hard to debate players like Duncan, Kobe, Dream, Shaq, or Russell. Hell add LeBron to that.

and yeah, Durant has a chance at top 10. Just needs to keep the foot on the gas for another 8 years and win a chip or two.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 09:29 PM
I will say, at the end of the day, its awesome that I was able to watch the majority of who I consider the top 10 ever play. I may not like Kobe, but I will miss watching him play when he hangs em' up.

Lakers + Giants
02-05-2014, 09:29 PM
I'm surprised to see Magic in Tier 3... Care to explain?


I think the 2 way centers simply had more influence that are above him. KAJ's longevity, and Wilt's utter dominance also sway me.

I believe it has to do with the fact that Magic was never really a great defender. It shows you how much of an Impact he made offensively when he's a consensus top 4 player. Had he made a big impact on both ends I think he would challenge Jordan as the GOAT tbh. Unfortunately, he didn't.

Lakers + Giants
02-05-2014, 09:36 PM
I will say, at the end of the day, its awesome that I was able to watch the majority of who I consider the top 10 ever play. I may not like Kobe, but I will miss watching him play when he hangs em' up.

I was born in 92, started watching the NBA in 1999. The players I am glad to have watched (in their prime) not on their last legs are:

Kobe
Shaq (Lakers)
Duncan
Malone
Webber
KG (wolves)
Tmac (magic) - still remember getting mad cuz he put up 62 pts
Dirk
AI
Nash (Suns)
Bibby (Kings) - underrated IMO
Marbury (suns)
Allen

etc.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 09:36 PM
I believe it has to do with the fact that Magic was never really a great defender. It shows you how much of an Impact he made offensively when he's a consensus top 4 player. Had he made a big impact on both ends I think he would challenge Jordan as the GOAT tbh. Unfortunately, he didn't.

Jordan was also 6-0 in the finals, and his advanced statistics just take a dump on everyone not named LeBron, KAJ, or Wilt.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 09:37 PM
I was born in 92, started watching the NBA in 1999. The players I am glad to have watched (in their prime) not on their last legs are:

Kobe
Shaq (Lakers)
Duncan
Malone
Webber
KG (wolves)
Tmac (magic) - still remember getting mad cuz he put up 62 pts
Dirk
AI
Nash (Suns)
Bibby (Kings) - underrated IMO
Marbury (suns)
Allen

etc.

I was born in 75, and the first NBA I remember is the 84 finals, which I watched with my dad. Hooked ever since.

Lakers + Giants
02-05-2014, 09:55 PM
Jordan was also 6-0 in the finals, and his advanced statistics just take a dump on everyone not named LeBron, KAJ, or Wilt.

Yea, nothing against other players, it's just you have no chance when someone else is on a whole different level.


I was born in 75, and the first NBA I remember is the 84 finals, which I watched with my dad. Hooked ever since.

I saw the spurs win it all and got hooked right away in 1999. Had no team then, then we played the pacers and won it all I became a fan of the lakers (I know bandwagon right! I was 8 tho, don't judge me), been more than a die hard fan ever since.

Fun fact: I skipped my 2010 prom and graduation cuz I was too nervous to go to school, good thing we won it all that day in game 7 vs Boston! :dance:

Lakers + Giants
02-05-2014, 09:59 PM
I'm assuming you were a lakers fan prior to 1989? :laugh2:

IKnowHoops
02-05-2014, 10:12 PM
Well there are two ways to rank players....career, and Prime. When it comes to career, I rank him top 8 pretty easily. He'd be behind Magic, Mike, Shaq, Duncan, KAJ, and Russell. Thats about it. When it comes to Prime, he is in the low to mid teens behind guys like Mike,Bron, KAJ, Shaq, Dream, Drob, Durant, Wade, Tmac, Duncan, KG, Wilt, Magic, Chris Paul.

That being said, unless he played at a higher level than he had ever played at before, his position is set in stone. Only other greater players with better careers or primes can make his position move downwards.

DreamShaker
02-05-2014, 10:21 PM
He's a top ten all-time player to me. It would be a pure miracle for him to do anything to move up considering all of his circumstances.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 10:24 PM
I'm assuming you were a lakers fan prior to 1989? :laugh2:

my Dad was a HUGE Bird fan, so my entrance to NBA basketball was very anti-Lakers.

KnicksorBust
02-05-2014, 10:25 PM
Jordan was also 6-0 in the finals, and his advanced statistics just take a dump on everyone not named LeBron, KAJ, or Wilt.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?853671-More-Impressive-6-0-in-Finals-or-5-4-in-Finals

:)

Lakers + Giants
02-05-2014, 10:30 PM
my Dad was a HUGE Bird fan, so my entrance to NBA basketball was very anti-Lakers.

Haha, ahh ****. Nvm then, I thought you could've been a laker fan for a few years. That would've been awesome :)

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 10:51 PM
Haha, ahh ****. Nvm then, I thought you could've been a laker fan for a few years. That would've been awesome :)

I ****ing love Magic though.

Lakers + Giants
02-05-2014, 11:17 PM
I ****ing love Magic though.

Have a ball autographed by him with a PSA/DNA COA. Have his jersey as well. Love him, despite having never watched him.

Even as a SF giants fan I love Magic, even tho he is the an owner of the Dodgers :pity:

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 11:20 PM
Have a ball autographed by him with a PSA/DNA COA. Have his jersey as well. Love him, despite having never watched him.

Even as a SF giants fan I love Magic, even tho he is the an owner of the Dodgers :pity:

probably the most fun player to watch in history. To me at least.

FlashBolt
02-06-2014, 01:22 AM
This is all hypothetical. Will he ever win another? I don't know. If he can bump his ring collection to 7, he may very well be in the second spot for some. He's second imo. Don't bash me. A lot of people value different categories and I just think Kobe has been far too impressive for much too long to not receive such place in history.

Supreme LA
02-06-2014, 06:33 AM
No homerism. I have Kobe anywhere between 7 to 10. There are just too many players that played in different eras for me to compare. I feel confident that will be his ranking when it's all said and done. I have never been one to think Kobe breaks into top 5.

With that said I believe his place is pretty much set in stone. He really can't hurt his legacy at this point because there isn't anybody who believes he could do more at this stage of his career and with the Laker's current situation. With that said, I know you said to be reasonable OP and I might be pushing it, but if Kobe can some how lead the Lakers on a deep playoff run as a real contender or even wins another title he solidifies his spot at 7 for me.

stawka
02-06-2014, 06:43 AM
No homerism. I have Kobe anywhere between 7 to 10. There are just too many players that played in different eras for me to compare. I feel confident that will be his ranking when it's all said and done. I have never been one to think Kobe breaks into top 5.

With that said I believe his place is pretty much set in stone. He really can't hurt his legacy at this point because there isn't anybody who believes he could do more at this stage of his career and with the Laker's current situation. With that said, I know you said to be reasonable OP and I might be pushing it, but if Kobe can some how lead the Lakers on a deep playoff run as a real contender or even wins another title he solidifies his spot at 7 for me.

Nice post. I see him around 9-10, but to say 7-10 isn't a big stretch. He's cemented his legacy, it doesn't matter if he retired 2 seasons ago or he plays another 2. Great damn career, and this is coming from someone that can't stand him

Supreme LA
02-06-2014, 07:13 AM
Nice post. I see him around 9-10, but to say 7-10 isn't a big stretch. He's cemented his legacy, it doesn't matter if he retired 2 seasons ago or he plays another 2. Great damn career, and this is coming from someone that can't stand him

Thank you. There are some objective/realistic Laker fans out there. It's too bad we just get lumped in with the bad seeds. I know I mentioned earlier about Kobe cementing his place at 7 would take a deep playoff run as a real contender or a champship run. That is highly unlikely with the West the way it is and the way KD is developing. A guy can only dream I guess.

PhillyFaninLA
02-06-2014, 08:39 AM
Most people already have Kobe's legacy already set in stone have Kobe somewhere in the 4-12 range all time. Now I'm asking in YOUR opinion is there anything else Kobe can do for the duration of his career that can move him up or down in legacy? Whether it be win another ring, lose all athleticism and average sub par numbers, win an MVP etc. or would you say anything he plays for now is just residual? No hate or homerism in this thread please, just state what he could do to make him go up or down and discuss. (Within the realm of reason) so obviously not winning back to back to back dpoy or anything like that.

Kobe is not 4 - 12, he is barely the 4th best Laker of all time if he is even that.

basketfan4life
02-06-2014, 10:51 AM
Can't hurt it because nobody expects anything. Can improve because nobody expects anything, but nearly impossible there is a reason that nobody expects anything.

He is 5 to 10 to me, i don't know where his exact place is. Might be the most sensational player ever on and off the court.

Longhornfan1234
02-06-2014, 12:11 PM
I have Kobe at 8. I don't see him moving up.

3RDASYSTEM
02-06-2014, 12:46 PM
Good post, but just to play devils advoctate, would it possibly solidify him more in the 8 range as opposed to 10 in your rankings if he did come back as a top 5 player for some ungodly reason and lead the lakers to a top 5 ish seed in the west next year with a new found efficiency due to his injury and evolving his game yet again?

This is the reason why I know how to judge players on sight for your statement right here

how in the **** can a player move up if he gets a top 5 ish seed but he has won 5 rings in 18yrs,which is where most fanatics rank him off of(and dumb *** longevity)? its like how much after 5-10yrs do you have to watch a repetitive copycat player? he played at the same level as he did as a backup first 3yrs but for some reason his footwork in the post later in career made him a better player and added on to his longevity and now if he gets a 5 ish seed instead of winning actual titles then he will move up in your rankings,congrats

so did he fall out of the top 20 after not making the playoffs as the solo man from 05-07' and losing 1st rd blowing 3-1 leads? how about the past 3 yrs of not doing **** in playoffs, especially according to him and his fanatical followers view of ship or bust? how did he not fall down your list if you say he can climb up it next year with a 5 ish seed?

that's why I know you guys are full of **** with this up and down list, you only move him up when he succeeds in your mind, when he loses you say oh well he stays, that's the dumbest way possible to rank/judge players

he's not going to evolve his ****ing game, he is scorer/shooter day 1 to day gazillion and he himself has stated this over and over(as well as the lakers being his team)

3RDASYSTEM
02-06-2014, 12:48 PM
probably the most fun player to watch in history. To me at least.
I said same thing until that JORDAN/SHAQ/AI trio happened, MAGIC was the man, though a frontrunner, he could go hard

Bostonjorge
02-06-2014, 05:14 PM
I don't see why kobe moving up on all time list's or winning more championships cannot move him up. If championship or where u are at on the all time list don't matter then what is used as a case to say there are players high then kobe. I believe Jordan and kobe are the most talented basketball players ever and kobe has yet to finish his story.

Also we don't know who kobe will have as teammates in the future or next season. Kobe can still ball and with the right help he can lead them to a ring.

nickdymez
02-06-2014, 05:18 PM
Kobe is not 4 - 12, he is barely the 4th best Laker of all time if he is even that.

Well good thing intelligent, unbiased sports fans dont belive this.

Bruno
02-06-2014, 05:24 PM
Kobe is not 4 - 12, he is barely the 4th best Laker of all time if he is even that.

Wilt, West and Shaq? what they did in a Laker uniform does not surpass what Kobe did in a Laker uniform.

RaiderLakersA's
02-06-2014, 05:48 PM
Kobe is not 4 - 12, he is barely the 4th best Laker of all time if he is even that.

You are too quick on the trigger on that one ... and likely missed the target.

I've been a Lakers fan since the 70s. If you're debating personalities, you might be right. But if you're debating anything else other than that, Kobe is indeed in the top 4 in the Lakers pantheon of greats. Magic himself was willing to concede the spot of #1 to Kobe just a couple of years ago. Far be it from me to say that my opines matter more than his in that regard.

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 07:04 PM
I don't see why kobe moving up on all time list's or winning more championships cannot move him up. If championship or where u are at on the all time list don't matter then what is used as a case to say there are players high then kobe. I believe Jordan and kobe are the most talented basketball players ever and kobe has yet to finish his story.

Also we don't know who kobe will have as teammates in the future or next season. Kobe can still ball and with the right help he can lead them to a ring.

its not winning the championships, its how you win them. Is anyone giving Gary Payton credit for his legacy for his ring?

Kobe's 5 chips, he was either the greatest 2nd banana ever (even had some series where he was the best player), followed by 2 chips where he was the man.

Look, if a miracle occurs, and Kobe is a top 5 player, leading the Lakers to a chip, sure he can climb. The reality of that happening is slim to none.

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 07:05 PM
Wilt, West and Shaq? what they did in a Laker uniform does not surpass what Kobe did in a Laker uniform.

yeah, I don't get how Kobe isn't considered the 2nd greatest Laker ever at this point.

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 07:08 PM
You are too quick on the trigger on that one ... and likely missed the target.

I've been a Lakers fan since the 70s. If you're debating personalities, you might be right. But if you're debating anything else other than that, Kobe is indeed in the top 4 in the Lakers pantheon of greats. Magic himself was willing to concede the spot of #1 to Kobe just a couple of years ago. Far be it from me to say that my opines matter more than his in that regard.

what's interesting is that Kobe has a slim chance of being regarded as the greatest Laker ever, even though a compelling case can already be made. Magic was just so damn loveable, and such an easy player to be a fan of. Perception sometimes runs deeper than reality.

Lakers + Giants
02-06-2014, 08:13 PM
yeah, I don't get how Kobe isn't considered the 2nd greatest Laker ever at this point.

I believe it's Magic #1

and kobe/Kareem are a toss up for #2

beliges
02-06-2014, 08:16 PM
its not winning the championships, its how you win them. Is anyone giving Gary Payton credit for his legacy for his ring?

Kobe's 5 chips, he was either the greatest 2nd banana ever (even had some series where he was the best player), followed by 2 chips where he was the man.

Look, if a miracle occurs, and Kobe is a top 5 player, leading the Lakers to a chip, sure he can climb. The reality of that happening is slim to none.

I think earlier you said both Kareem and Magic are ahead of Kobe for you. Now, since Magic and Kareem won their rings together (outside of Kareem's one), who was the "second banana" there? Clearly one of the two needs to be a second banana correct? And since you called Kobe the greatest second banana, does that make him better in your eyes than either Magic or Kareem since one of those two were second banana?

Bostonjorge
02-06-2014, 08:20 PM
its not winning the championships, its how you win them. Is anyone giving Gary Payton credit for his legacy for his ring?

Kobe's 5 chips, he was either the greatest 2nd banana ever (even had some series where he was the best player), followed by 2 chips where he was the man.

Look, if a miracle occurs, and Kobe is a top 5 player, leading the Lakers to a chip, sure he can climb. The reality of that happening is slim to none.

This whole the man thing is dumb. So Duncan in 2007 he wasn't the man because Parker took the finals MVP. Parker was on Duncan's team for 3 rings but only for one was Parker the man? So Duncan hasn't been the man since 2007? I wouldn't put a sidekick like Duncan for the past 7 years anywhere near the other players listed. Especially if Parker is somewhere in the 20 or 30 all time range to take over the team.

Jamiecballer
02-06-2014, 08:22 PM
Half the population will remember Kobe Bryant for being a great great player. The other half will remember him as one of the biggest *******s/douchebags in the history of sport.

that my friends is the real answer to the thread title.

bucketss
02-06-2014, 08:32 PM
goes up: he wont, his career is pretty much done, he will most likely retire very soon

going down: when they found out he took steriods when getting his knees fixed overseas

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 08:34 PM
I think earlier you said both Kareem and Magic are ahead of Kobe for you. Now, since Magic and Kareem won their rings together (outside of Kareem's one), who was the "second banana" there? Clearly one of the two needs to be a second banana correct? And since you called Kobe the greatest second banana, does that make him better in your eyes than either Magic or Kareem since one of those two were second banana?

where are you going with this? Clearly during the Lakers 80's runs, Magic was their top player. Clearly during the Lakers 3peat Shaq was their best player.

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 08:34 PM
I believe it's Magic #1

and kobe/Kareem are a toss up for #2

Kareem? Nah. Many of his great years were with the Bucks. Besides, to be the greatest Laker, and you have Magic and Kobe who were ALWAYS Lakers, it makes it pretty easy for me.

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 08:35 PM
This whole the man thing is dumb. So Duncan in 2007 he wasn't the man because Parker took the finals MVP. Parker was on Duncan's team for 3 rings but only for one was Parker the man? So Duncan hasn't been the man since 2007? I wouldn't put a sidekick like Duncan for the past 7 years anywhere near the other players listed. Especially if Parker is somewhere in the 20 or 30 all time range to take over the team.

Who was the best player on the 2007 Spurs?

And again, if Kobe wins another ring ala Gary Payton style, do we really give him nearly as much credit as his others?

beliges
02-06-2014, 08:39 PM
where are you going with this? Clearly during the Lakers 80's runs, Magic was their top player. Clearly during the Lakers 3peat Shaq was their best player.

Just trying to understand the logic here. So basically what you're saying is that Kareem only won one title as the man and the rest he won as the "second banana?" And so would he still be considered a top 5 type player even though he only won ONE title as the man?

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 08:40 PM
Just trying to understand the logic here. So basically what you're saying is that Kareem only won one title as the man and the rest he won as the "second banana?" And so would he still be considered a top 5 type player even though he only won ONE title as the man?

because in the long equation of ranking greatness, rings is just one factor. Kareem rips apart almost anyone in a bunch of other factors.

beliges
02-06-2014, 08:52 PM
because in the long equation of ranking greatness, rings is just one factor. Kareem rips apart almost anyone in a bunch of other factors.

I get you. I've just never heard anyone represent Kareem as a "second fiddle" type player. So would you still consider Kobe the "best second banana ever" or would you consider Kareem the "best second banana ever?"

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 08:57 PM
I get you. I've just never heard anyone represent Kareem as a "second fiddle" type player. So would you still consider Kobe the "best second banana ever" or would you consider Kareem the "best second banana ever?"

Kobe. Kareem's huge seasons with the Lakers came before Magic was there to help him win titles. He was slowly on the down during his Laker chip days, while Kobe was slowly on the up. But again, Kareem kills him in a bunch of other factors to my rankings equation. Hell he kills almost everyone in some of those factors.

I suppose those, technically, KAJ was the second banana for his Laker titles. He even had a year where he was probably their best player in the playoffs (83'), but Kobe was just as dominant as Shaq in their 15-1 playoff run.

beliges
02-06-2014, 08:59 PM
Kobe. Kareem's huge seasons with the Lakers came before Magic was there to help him win titles. He was slowly on the down during his Laker chip days, while Kobe was slowly on the up. But again, Kareem kills him in a bunch of other factors to my rankings equation. Hell he kills almost everyone in some of those factors.

Well I can agree Kareem kills most in a lot of factors. I got him as the greatest big man to ever play.

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 09:04 PM
Well I can agree Kareem kills most in a lot of factors. I got him as the greatest big man to ever play.

agreed. He is a sliver ahead of Wilt for me as the greatest big ever. #2 ever for me.

JordansBulls
02-06-2014, 09:23 PM
its not winning the championships, its how you win them.

Exactly!!! And going to a team that has a guy who won a title as the man doesn't mean much either.:)

Hawkeye15
02-06-2014, 09:30 PM
Exactly!!! And going to a team that has a guy who won a title as the man doesn't mean much either.:)

not what I meant at all dude.

bucketss
02-06-2014, 09:50 PM
Exactly!!! And going to a team that has a guy who won a title as the man doesn't mean much either.:)

except when that player plays injured, for all the years except one. King james = goat

Bruno
02-06-2014, 10:17 PM
yeah, I don't get how Kobe isn't considered the 2nd greatest Laker ever at this point.

most fans in LA I know over 30 still pick Magic. interestingly enough, Magic picks Kobe. Magic has a lot of poor analysis on his resume as a commentator, but its interesting.

but the Magic/Kobe debate starts to get debatable once you take in account defense. its 50% of the game. for some reason Magic gets a pass here and I'm always reminding my seniors of this fact (not one defensive accolade in his entire career). I'm one of the few Laker fans who think Magic is slightly over-rated, and am naturally partial to Kobe because of my age.

beliges
02-06-2014, 10:26 PM
yeah, I don't get how Kobe isn't considered the 2nd greatest Laker ever at this point.

most fans in LA I know over 30 still pick Magic. interestingly enough, Magic picks Kobe. Magic has a lot of poor analysis on his resume as a commentator, but its interesting.

but the Magic/Kobe debate starts to get debatable once you take in account defense. its 50% of the game. for some reason Magic gets a pass here and I'm always reminding my seniors of this fact (not one defensive accolade in his entire career). I'm one of the few Laker fans who think Magic is slightly over-rated, and am naturally partial to Kobe because of my age.

When you compare both players in every aspect of the game (I.e. scoring, shooting, defense, ckutchness, footwork, fundamentals, post game, etc..) kobe has magic beat in most categories. But magic was so likable and did so much for the game that many consider him amongst the top 5. As a purely basketball player, kobe is most probably better than magic.

TDE
02-06-2014, 11:30 PM
To me, there are 4 tiers.

1.A Jordan, 1.B Kareem & Magic

2. Wilt & Russell

3. Bird, Shaq, Duncan & Kobe

4. Hakeem & LeBron

I think you can put Kobe ahead of his class or behind and you won't get **** from anyone, But for Kobe to end debate and surpass his group he would need to win 1 F-MVP, that IMO would put him in the conversation/debate with Wilt & Russell, If he was to win a 4th F-MVP, he'd enter the best tier and arguably become the 2nd greatest player ever.

Jordan: 6X Champ 6X FMVP
Kareem: 6X Champ 2X FMVP
Magic: 5x Champ 3x F-MVP

Wilt: 2X Champ 1x F-MVP
Russell: 11x Champ 7x F-MVP+

Bird: 3X Champ 2x F-MVP
Duncan: 4X Champ 3x F-MVP
Shaq: 4x Champ 3x F-MVP

Lebron: 2x Champ 2x F-MVP
Hakeem: 2x Champ 2x F-MVP

My question to you guys, if Kobe won 2 more F-MVP(Kobe: 7x Champ 4x F-MVP). where will he rank among these players?

bucketss
02-06-2014, 11:46 PM
To me, there are 4 tiers.

1.A Jordan, 1.B Kareem & Magic

2. Wilt & Russell

3. Bird, Shaq, Duncan & Kobe

4. Hakeem & LeBron

I think you can put Kobe ahead of his class or behind and you won't get **** from anyone, But for Kobe to end debate and surpass his group he would need to win 1 F-MVP, that IMO would put him in the conversation/debate with Wilt & Russell, If he was to win a 4th F-MVP, he'd enter the best tier and arguably become the 2nd greatest player ever.

Jordan: 6X Champ 6X FMVP
Kareem: 6X Champ 2X FMVP
Magic: 5x Champ 3x F-MVP

Wilt: 2X Champ 1x F-MVP
Russell: 11x Champ 7x F-MVP+

Bird: 3X Champ 2x F-MVP
Duncan: 4X Champ 3x F-MVP
Shaq: 4x Champ 3x F-MVP

Lebron: 2x Champ 2x F-MVP
Hakeem: 2x Champ 2x F-MVP

My question to you guys, if Kobe won 2 more F-MVP(Kobe: 7x Champ 4x F-MVP). where will he rank among these players?

stopped reading when i saw kobe a tier ahead of lebron smh.

jerellh528
02-06-2014, 11:51 PM
stopped reading when i saw kobe a tier ahead of lebron smh.

Stopping this right here, this thread isn't supposed to be Kobe vs Lebron. Not another one. But most level headed ppl would put Kobe ahead of lbj at this current time.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 12:12 AM
most fans in LA I know over 30 still pick Magic. interestingly enough, Magic picks Kobe. Magic has a lot of poor analysis on his resume as a commentator, but its interesting.

but the Magic/Kobe debate starts to get debatable once you take in account defense. its 50% of the game. for some reason Magic gets a pass here and I'm always reminding my seniors of this fact (not one defensive accolade in his entire career). I'm one of the few Laker fans who think Magic is slightly over-rated, and am naturally partial to Kobe because of my age.

I do think the nostalgia of Magic, and the fact that he was a MUCH more likeable person than Kobe is helping him along. Like I said, I think a compelling argument can be made for Kobe, but its an uphill battle for him to really pass Magic at the end of the day.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 12:13 AM
Stopping this right here, this thread isn't supposed to be Kobe vs Lebron. Not another one. But most level headed ppl would put Kobe ahead of lbj at this current time.

yeah, like I said, the more I think of it, I like a tier system. I have Kobe and LeBron in the same tier, but absolutely don't have an issue with someone telling me they are still taking Kobe's career over LeBron's. No issue at all.

jerellh528
02-07-2014, 12:26 AM
yeah, like I said, the more I think of it, I like a tier system. I have Kobe and LeBron in the same tier, but absolutely don't have an issue with someone telling me they are still taking Kobe's career over LeBron's. No issue at all.

I actually like the tiers too, especially in regards to greatness. Too hard and too many variables to put a specific player ahead of another, unless of course it's Jordan who was head and shoulders above everyone else. I too have no issue people putting Kobe or Lebron ahead of the other. Depends on how individuals rank using peak vs longevity etc. personally I can't put lbj ahead of Kobe yet, I mean the guys not even 30 yet, he can't really compare to Kobe's entire career even with one of the greatest peaks of all time. Just needs more years before I put him up there with the retired legends. Lbj is a legend in his own right, don't get me wrong. But he still has a ton of career left and honestly isn't even fair to him to be comparing him right now.

ghettosean
02-07-2014, 12:30 AM
yeah, like I said, the more I think of it, I like a tier system. I have Kobe and LeBron in the same tier, but absolutely don't have an issue with someone telling me they are still taking Kobe's career over LeBron's. No issue at all.

I actually like the tiers too, especially in regards to greatness. Too hard and too many variables to put a specific player ahead of another, unless of course it's Jordan who was head and shoulders above everyone else. I too have no issue people putting Kobe or Lebron ahead of the other. Depends on how individuals rank using peak vs longevity etc. personally I can't put lbj ahead of Kobe yet, I mean the guys not even 30 yet, he can't really compare to Kobe's entire career even with one of the greatest peaks of all time. Just needs more years before I put him up there with the retired legends. Lbj is a legend in his own right, don't get me wrong. But he still has a ton of career left and honestly isn't even fair to him to be comparing him right now.

Well said by both! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 12:41 AM
I actually like the tiers too, especially in regards to greatness. Too hard and too many variables to put a specific player ahead of another, unless of course it's Jordan who was head and shoulders above everyone else. I too have no issue people putting Kobe or Lebron ahead of the other. Depends on how individuals rank using peak vs longevity etc. personally I can't put lbj ahead of Kobe yet, I mean the guys not even 30 yet, he can't really compare to Kobe's entire career even with one of the greatest peaks of all time. Just needs more years before I put him up there with the retired legends. Lbj is a legend in his own right, don't get me wrong. But he still has a ton of career left and honestly isn't even fair to him to be comparing him right now.

Last post regarding Bron versus Kobe, because I think this has stayed fairly on topic.

Not only is LeBron not 30, but he didn't enjoy the early team success Kobe did. This hurts his argument, as it should. At the end of the day, even crazy Kobe fans know LeBron is passing him. But that being said, if I didn't know **** about either player, and you put their resume side by side on paper, I would probably choose Kobe. Now that being said, since I do know who both are, and have watched them play their entire careers, the argument becomes more acceptable to me that LeBron has passed Kobe.

Either way, as long as the argument is rational, well thought out, and has some evidence (you know, non-biased numbers, accolades, etc), I can accept either argument.

Back on topic, as I stated early, I feel lucky to have watched Kobe, even if I don't like him personally. Great basketball talent, and probably the exact demeanor I would want in my star player.

Kevj77
02-07-2014, 12:50 AM
I do think the nostalgia of Magic, and the fact that he was a MUCH more likeable person than Kobe is helping him along. Like I said, I think a compelling argument can be made for Kobe, but its an uphill battle for him to really pass Magic at the end of the day.If you're talking about legacy it is nearly impossible to pass Magic. Him and Bird revived the NBA in the 80s and Jordan took it to level of popularity the NBA had never seen. Kobe only makes 30 million a year because of Magic, Bird and Jordan.

That is one hell of a legacy.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 12:54 AM
If you're talking about legacy it is nearly impossible to pass Magic. Him and Bird revived the NBA in the 80s and Jordan took it to level of popularity the NBA had never seen. Kobe only makes 30 million a year because of Magic, Bird and Jordan.

That is one hell of a legacy.

right. That is part of what I am talking about.

Kevj77
02-07-2014, 01:02 AM
right. That is part of what I am talking about.Yeah, that isn't to say that Kobe can't be the best Laker ever or as good as Magic only that his legacy will never be greater than Magic.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 01:07 AM
Yeah, that isn't to say that Kobe can't be the best Laker ever or as good as Magic only that his legacy will never be greater than Magic.

totally agree. As I stated, Magic gets a pass for being a likeable, polarizing player for them in their greatest modern times. The NBA is part of that. The Magic/Bird era will stand by itself for a long, long time. I mean, how many times do 2 top 10 players ever start their battle in college, come to the NBA at the same time, and their teams go head to head for chips for years?

Just a perfect storm which will be nearly impossible for Kobe to overcome. That being said, a basketball nerd can probably make a good case for Bryant as the #1 Laker ever.

still1ballin
02-07-2014, 01:28 AM
he iz ze gratest!

no ?s askd!

LA_Raiders
02-07-2014, 01:34 AM
Goat IMO

Kevj77
02-07-2014, 01:35 AM
Magic was also unique a 6'9" 230 pound point guard that could play multiple positions. Add some "what if", Magic got HIV then had to retire at 31 coming off a NBA finals appearance. He was still close to his prime. What kind off numbers would he have if he played 5 more years.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 01:36 AM
Magic was also unique a 6'9" 230 pound point guard that could play multiple positions. Add some "what if", Magic got HIV then had to retire at 31 coming off a NBA finals appearance. He was still close to his prime. What kind off numbers would he have if he played 5 more years.

true, but his lack of defense has always been ignored..

Bruno
02-07-2014, 01:45 AM
I do think the nostalgia of Magic, and the fact that he was a MUCH more likeable person than Kobe is helping him along. Like I said, I think a compelling argument can be made for Kobe, but its an uphill battle for him to really pass Magic at the end of the day.

it is. but for fans who value the defensive end of the ball, it's an honest debate. kobe gets much criticism for his last two or three defensive first team selections but he's a guy who's finished third in DPOY voting once, and fifth once in his career. he's the better defender and has had a more prolific career. he's played a lot longer than Magic.

Kevj77
02-07-2014, 01:46 AM
He couldn't guard his position the smaller faster PGs could get around him too easily so he had to do a lot of switching. He was decent at help D.

Kobe definitely has Magic beat on scoring and D. It's a tough one for me I grew up on Magic and watched Kobe grow up a Laker.

Bruno
02-07-2014, 01:55 AM
He couldn't guard his position the smaller faster PGs could get around him too easily so he had to do a lot of switching. He was decent at help D.

Kobe definitely has Magic beat on scoring and D. It's a tough one for me I grew up on Magic and watched Kobe grow up a Laker.
i dont blame anyone for their pick here. compelling arguments can be made for both sides.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 02:05 AM
it is. but for fans who value the defensive end of the ball, it's an honest debate. kobe gets much criticism for his last two or three defensive first team selections but he's a guy who's finished third in DPOY voting once, and fifth once in his career. he's the better defender and has had a more prolific career. he's played a lot longer than Magic.

I don't dispute any of that. But at the end of the day, Magic being so ****ing loveable is going to kill Kobe haha.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 02:06 AM
He couldn't guard his position the smaller faster PGs could get around him too easily so he had to do a lot of switching. He was decent at help D.

Kobe definitely has Magic beat on scoring and D. It's a tough one for me I grew up on Magic and watched Kobe grow up a Laker.

no offense, but Magic was crap on D, but played in an era dominated by big men. If you transplanted him to todays league, Magic would never be a PG.

Chronz
02-07-2014, 04:10 AM
I question whether defense truly is 50% of the game for wing players. Great offensive player vs great defender, whos likely to be a franchise player? How often do you hear of offensive liabilities being franchise perimeter guys

tredigs
02-07-2014, 04:17 AM
I question whether defense truly is 50% of the game for wing players. Great offensive player vs great defender, whos likely to be a franchise player? How often do you hear of offensive liabilities being franchise perimeter guys

Correct. It's only the case for dominant bigs who can effectively shut down the easiest area on the floor to score. And even then, it would be equally if not more important for that big to be a dominant offensive paint presence. It's a great advantage and a player like Tony Allen is going to help your team big time if they can already score, but being elite on the offensive end is always going to win more games and be more helpful to your teammates as a whole (taking pressure off them) for non bigs.

High IQ team defense + an anchor >>>

sammyvine
02-07-2014, 05:18 AM
I don't dispute any of that. But at the end of the day, Magic being so ****ing loveable is going to kill Kobe haha.

Just because you dislike Kobe it doesnt mean others feel the same, and going by popularity a lot of being don't hate kobe.

What's so dislikable about him anyway? The arrogance....yeah but a lot of players are arrogant and full of themselves (Lebron, MJ, Shaq).
The Rape thing? Yeah but many other stars cheat on their wives and partners (wrong but it seems the norm nowadays)
Apart from those 2 things i don't see whats so unlikable about him.

MickeyMgl
02-07-2014, 05:38 AM
Most people already have Kobe's legacy already set in stone have Kobe somewhere in the 4-12 range all time. Now I'm asking in YOUR opinion is there anything else Kobe can do for the duration of his career that can move him up or down in legacy? Whether it be win another ring, lose all athleticism and average sub par numbers, win an MVP etc. or would you say anything he plays for now is just residual? No hate or homerism in this thread please, just state what he could do to make him go up or down and discuss. (Within the realm of reason) so obviously not winning back to back to back dpoy or anything like that.

Nothing can move him down except future great players, but we're talking elite of elite. Probably Lebron, probably not anybody else who's currently playing. Nothing else can move him down during the rest of his career. Theoretically, he could move up if he makes an impressive and unlikely comeback, for himself and his team, but the reason that could have an effect is because, as I say, it's unlikely. In truth, he should be locked in to wherever each person has him ranked for years to come, give or take another Lebron championship or two.

holditdown
02-07-2014, 12:40 PM
I'll always remember Kobe as a great player with great longevity. He'd break your heart one way or another depending what team you were rooting for.

He would sometimes just be unconcious for games or weeks on end, but at the same time he would look bad considering he took so many shots and they just weren't going in when he got cold.

If he could shoot over 50% in his prime I'd put him in the top 5 players ever, but I put him around 12 since he just had a tendency to shoot you out of games too much.

kylem4711
02-07-2014, 12:42 PM
he will go down as a great player, ultra competitor, terrible teammate and a R

beliges
02-07-2014, 01:23 PM
right. That is part of what I am talking about.Yeah, that isn't to say that Kobe can't be the best Laker ever or as good as Magic only that his legacy will never be greater than Magic.

This one is probably true because everyone loved magic. For kobe some people love him and some people despise him. You never heard anyone criticizing magic for playing with perhaps the greatest big man ever and not to mention the most talented team ever. With that said I think.its clear kobe is simply the better basketball player, but magics legacy goes beyond his basketball play and he gets a lot of credit for that.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 01:32 PM
Just because you dislike Kobe it doesnt mean others feel the same, and going by popularity a lot of being don't hate kobe.

What's so dislikable about him anyway? The arrogance....yeah but a lot of players are arrogant and full of themselves (Lebron, MJ, Shaq).
The Rape thing? Yeah but many other stars cheat on their wives and partners (wrong but it seems the norm nowadays)
Apart from those 2 things i don't see whats so unlikable about him.

if you think the masses view Kobe in the same light as Magic, as far as likeable, you are insane. Kobe has always been reserved, cocky, and stayed away from his teammates and the media. Magic was adored, and still is for his personality and playing style. Maybe more than any player in history. It's not a slight at Kobe to say he will never be "liked" like Magic.

Whether you like it or not, Kobe's personality is very off-putting for some people. Magic was loved by almost everyone.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 01:33 PM
I question whether defense truly is 50% of the game for wing players. Great offensive player vs great defender, whos likely to be a franchise player? How often do you hear of offensive liabilities being franchise perimeter guys

it may not be, but when you DO get an exceptional defender out of a wing who is also elite offensively, it simply makes them that much better.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 01:34 PM
Nothing can move him down except future great players, but we're talking elite of elite. Probably Lebron, probably not anybody else who's currently playing. Nothing else can move him down during the rest of his career. Theoretically, he could move up if he makes an impressive and unlikely comeback, for himself and his team, but the reason that could have an effect is because, as I say, it's unlikely. In truth, he should be locked in to wherever each person has him ranked for years to come, give or take another Lebron championship or two.

pretty much, and as always, of course that will happen with guys in that 5-15 range.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 01:35 PM
This one is probably true because everyone loved magic. For kobe some people love him and some people despise him. You never heard anyone criticizing magic for playing with perhaps the greatest big man ever and not to mention the most talented team ever. With that said I think.its clear kobe is simply the better basketball player, but magics legacy goes beyond his basketball play and he gets a lot of credit for that.

exactly right. There are truly a ton of Kobe "haters". Not so much for Magic. Mainstream fans loved him.

Singhkumar9219
02-07-2014, 01:36 PM
Hes positioned at 4-12 reason being that he never really took over the league. He was at one time the best player at his position but similar to Melo without a supporting cast Kobe just looked like a ballhog that only cared about his personal stats which were close but pale in compared to Jordan's which is who he modeled his game after. He will be great but I fail to see how one more or even two would make him the better than the most dominate player in NBA history Post and Regular Season

Jordan's Legacy
6 NBA champion (19911993, 19961998)
6 NBA Finals MVP (19911993, 19961998)
5 NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 19911992, 1996, 1998)
14 NBA All-Star (19851993, 19961998, 20022003)
3 NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
10 All-NBA First Team (19871993, 19961998)
All-NBA Second Team (1985)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
9 NBA All-Defensive First Team (19881993, 19961998)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1985)
10 NBA scoring champion (19871993, 19961998)
3 NBA steals champion (1988, 1990, 1993)
2 NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (19871988)
3x AP Athlete of the Year (1991-93)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year (1991)
NBA all-time playoff leading scorer
NBA all-time playoff free throws made
Chicago Bulls all-time leading scorer

Kobe's Legacy
5 NBA champion (20002002, 20092010)
2 NBA Finals MVP (20092010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
16 NBA All-Star (1998, 20002014)
4 NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
11 All-NBA First Team (20022004, 20062013)
2 All-NBA Second Team (20002001)
2 All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9 NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 20032004, 20062011)
3 NBA All-Defensive Second Team (20012002, 2012)
2 NBA scoring champion (20062007)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
Los Angeles Lakers all-time leading scorer

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 01:39 PM
^nobody, not even homer Laker/Kobe fans, claims he can catch Jordan.

Chronz
02-07-2014, 01:55 PM
it may not be, but when you DO get an exceptional defender out of a wing who is also elite offensively, it simply makes them that much better.

Is Kobe better than Magic offensively tho?

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 02:04 PM
Is Kobe better than Magic offensively tho?

no, absolutely not. The biggest reasons I think an argument CAN be made for Kobe over Magic, is longevity and defense. But, at the end of the day, Kobe will widely be regarded as the 2nd greatest Laker to ever play.

nickdymez
02-07-2014, 02:22 PM
Its funny how people who hate Kobe, arent Lakers fans or even live in the city of LA, are commenting on who the greatest Laker of all time is.

Its also awesome to see known Kobe haters take over a post regarding Kobe's legacy. biased known Kobe haters.

Lakers + Giants
02-07-2014, 03:18 PM
Its funny how people who hate Kobe, arent Lakers fans or even live in the city of LA, are commenting on who the greatest Laker of all time is.

Its also awesome to see known Kobe haters take over a post regarding Kobe's legacy. biased known Kobe haters.

Just because they aren't laker fans they can't comment on the lakers or kobe? There are a lot of fans of other teams that know more about the lakers than lakers fans themselves. What's your point?

Going by your logic, why do we always comment on the Durant, Lebron, Heat/OKC threads then? We shouldn't right? I mean, we're not fans of those teams, we don't know anything about them. .

Any NBA fan can talk aout any team they choose to, not saying they are right, but they can comment on any other team they want to.

RaiderLakersA's
02-07-2014, 03:23 PM
I do think the nostalgia of Magic, and the fact that he was a MUCH more likeable person than Kobe is helping him along. Like I said, I think a compelling argument can be made for Kobe, but its an uphill battle for him to really pass Magic at the end of the day.

Magic also gets credit for what what he did for the NBA with Bird right there with him.That's a tough mountain of perception to overcome.

But as our generation fades, however, I think Kobe will get more and more appreciation and recognition. As someone stated earlier, most of the kids these days already see Kobe as the #1 Laker of all time.

With so many great Lakers, this is one of those cases where you can be wrong, yet still be right.

zn23
02-07-2014, 03:25 PM
Unless he wins an MVP or does something great statistically, he's pretty much in the top 10-15 range imo.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 04:18 PM
Magic also gets credit for what what he did for the NBA with Bird right there with him.That's a tough mountain of perception to overcome.

But as our generation fades, however, I think Kobe will get more and more appreciation and recognition. As someone stated earlier, most of the kids these days already see Kobe as the #1 Laker of all time.

With so many great Lakers, this is one of those cases where you can be wrong, yet still be right.

great point

Bruno
02-07-2014, 04:30 PM
I question whether defense truly is 50% of the game for wing players. Great offensive player vs great defender, whos likely to be a franchise player? How often do you hear of offensive liabilities being franchise perimeter guys


Correct. It's only the case for dominant bigs who can effectively shut down the easiest area on the floor to score. And even then, it would be equally if not more important for that big to be a dominant offensive paint presence. It's a great advantage and a player like Tony Allen is going to help your team big time if they can already score, but being elite on the offensive end is always going to win more games and be more helpful to your teammates as a whole (taking pressure off them) for non bigs.

High IQ team defense + an anchor >>>
being elite on the wing defensively still has an impact, especially if you're bodying up the other teams star wing.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 04:43 PM
being elite on the wing defensively still has an impact, especially if you're bodying up the other teams star wing.

which is why I think his case against Magic is a fair one. Magic is obviously the better offensive player, one of the greatest ever. But Kobe sort of neutralizes that with his defense and longevity.

nickdymez
02-07-2014, 04:43 PM
I wonder what happened to the post i made....

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 04:47 PM
I wonder what happened to the post i made....

which one dude?

MTar786
02-07-2014, 06:15 PM
the only thing in my eyes that can rank kobe up a spot or so more is ONLY if he has one of those 2011 dirk nowitzki type of playoff and over achieves to beat a better team in the finals while taking over in a way that is crazy. look at how much respect dirk got after that 2011 performance. i think it moved him like 10 spots lol

Supreme LA
02-07-2014, 06:17 PM
Unless he wins an MVP or does something great statistically, he's pretty much in the top 10-15 range imo.

I'm really curious to see what 14 players you think are better than Kobe all-time? Or if you can even name 10. It's your opinion and I respect it. I'm just curious.

MTar786
02-07-2014, 06:17 PM
Magic also gets credit for what what he did for the NBA with Bird right there with him.That's a tough mountain of perception to overcome.

But as our generation fades, however, I think Kobe will get more and more appreciation and recognition. As someone stated earlier, most of the kids these days already see Kobe as the #1 Laker of all time.

With so many great Lakers, this is one of those cases where you can be wrong, yet still be right.

hew not even gone yet and i already miss him. this is how i felt when shaq started losing it the year he got traded to the suns.. i didn't feel like watching the nab anymore. now I'm feeling the same again.. il recover in time lol

MTar786
02-07-2014, 06:18 PM
I'm really curious to see what 14 players you think are better than Kobe all-time? Or if you can even name 10. It's your opinion and I respect it. I'm just curious.
lol i think this guy is a smush parker fan

MTar786
02-07-2014, 06:57 PM
the only thing in my eyes that can rank kobe up a spot or so more is ONLY if he has one of those 2011 dirk nowitzki type of playoff and over achieves to beat a better team in the finals while taking over in a way that is crazy. look at how much respect dirk got after that 2011 performance. i think it moved him like 10 spots lol

Pierre The Poet
02-07-2014, 06:58 PM
Correct. It's only the case for dominant bigs who can effectively shut down the easiest area on the floor to score. And even then, it would be equally if not more important for that big to be a dominant offensive paint presence. It's a great advantage and a player like Tony Allen is going to help your team big time if they can already score, but being elite on the offensive end is always going to win more games and be more helpful to your teammates as a whole (taking pressure off them) for non bigs.

High IQ team defense + an anchor >>>

And also, I feel like the majority of great offensive players like Carmelo Anthony who aren't known for their defense play better defense than some of these great defender's play offense. In other words, Melo's Defense > Tony Allen's Offense IMO

Chronz
02-07-2014, 07:04 PM
Its funny how people who hate Kobe, arent Lakers fans or even live in the city of LA, are commenting on who the greatest Laker of all time is.
Why? Most of the time if I want an objective opinion on a certain team, the last person I would go to would be a fan of that team. Too much emotion involved.


Its also awesome to see known Kobe haters take over a post regarding Kobe's legacy. biased known Kobe haters.
Call them out individually

Chronz
02-07-2014, 07:07 PM
being elite on the wing defensively still has an impact, especially if you're bodying up the other teams star wing.

Never said it didn't I just dont buy the cliche that its a 50/50 split. You could have prime Kobe and still have a team that defends better without him, its hard to accomplish that with a prime big. Even when MJ left the Bulls, his dropoff wasn't felt defensively. His offensive contributions are most evident. Its why I value bigs more than most it seems, they really influence both sides to a greater degree IMO.

MTar786
02-07-2014, 07:12 PM
Never said it didn't I just dont buy the cliche that its a 50/50 split. You could have prime Kobe and still have a team that defends better without him, its hard to accomplish that with a prime big. Even when MJ left the Bulls, his dropoff wasn't felt defensively. His offensive contributions are most evident. Its why I value bigs more than most it seems, they really influence both sides to a greater degree IMO.

those jordan teams were incredible defensively. ask karl malone lol. best wing defense ever possibly. harper,jordan,pippin and rodman. then just throw in a 7'2 or 3 guy to clog the lane ala lic longly lol

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 07:14 PM
Never said it didn't I just dont buy the cliche that its a 50/50 split. You could have prime Kobe and still have a team that defends better without him, its hard to accomplish that with a prime big. Even when MJ left the Bulls, his dropoff wasn't felt defensively. His offensive contributions are most evident. Its why I value bigs more than most it seems, they really influence both sides to a greater degree IMO.

they do impact more, they live in the area where the easiest shots are taken.

3RDASYSTEM
02-07-2014, 07:17 PM
Magic also gets credit for what what he did for the NBA with Bird right there with him.That's a tough mountain of perception to overcome.

But as our generation fades, however, I think Kobe will get more and more appreciation and recognition. As someone stated earlier, most of the kids these days already see Kobe as the #1 Laker of all time.

With so many great Lakers, this is one of those cases where you can be wrong, yet still be right.

It was also right timing for MAGIC to save nba as did WILT back when he avg like 50ppg and like how SHAQ/AI bridged the gap to BRON era postJORDAN era, it's all a cycle and business, MAGIC in Hollywood while BIRD in low key but heavy tradition big market CELTICS make it attractive(black vs white player who had ncaa battles also), bean Bryant cant be more appreciate right now than how people rank him on this forum, top 5-12 best all time? people have to be smoking something unknown to mankind

a backupguard turned starter, wow

MickeyMgl
02-07-2014, 07:18 PM
pretty much, and as always, of course that will happen with guys in that 5-15 range.

Wait long enough, and it'll happen with guys in the 1-4 range as well.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 07:19 PM
Wait long enough, and it'll happen with guys in the 1-4 range as well.

eventually. But that may take a while. LeBron has a chance to get into the top 2-3, but I can't see him catching Jordan.

3RDASYSTEM
02-07-2014, 07:21 PM
Never said it didn't I just dont buy the cliche that its a 50/50 split. You could have prime Kobe and still have a team that defends better without him, its hard to accomplish that with a prime big. Even when MJ left the Bulls, his dropoff wasn't felt defensively. His offensive contributions are most evident. Its why I value bigs more than most it seems, they really influence both sides to a greater degree IMO.

of course you value bigs more and that's why its labeled a big mans sport, but you need those creators at the end of games so its more so impact felt on defense because the getting ball to big man/passing/shooting/creating comes down to the backcourt, or a hybrid front court style player like a TMAC/BRON/PIERCE style...other than that I would take ALCINDOR/WILT/SHAQ/DREAM over any player first overall in history, then match it with a backcourt player that equally good, or damn close on both sides of the ball

jerellh528
02-07-2014, 07:22 PM
It was also right timing for MAGIC to save nba as did WILT back when he avg like 50ppg and like how SHAQ/AI bridged the gap to BRON era postJORDAN era, it's all a cycle and business, MAGIC in Hollywood while BIRD in low key but heavy tradition big market CELTICS make it attractive(black vs white player who had ncaa battles also), bean Bryant cant be more appreciate right now than how people rank him on this forum, top 5-12 best all time? people have to be smoking something unknown to mankind

a backupguard turned starter, wow

I always wonder why you consistently use backup turned starter to put down Kobe when I view it as the opposite. I feel that working you way up to the pinnacle through hard work and improving your skills every day the way Kobe did is more impressive than a guy who was crowned the future goat day one. Just because he was a backup should not demean his place in history since that's exactly what you want from a backup, or any player for that matter. Working your hardest every day to become the best, I see no fault in that.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 07:26 PM
I always wonder why you consistently use backup turned starter to put down Kobe when I view it as the opposite. I feel that working you way up to the pinnacle through hard work and improving your skills every day the way Kobe did is more impressive than a guy who was crowned the future goat day one. Just because he was a backup should not demean his place in history since that's exactly what you want from a backup, or any player for that matter. Working your hardest every day to become the best, I see no fault in that.

and how many greats came in that young and dominated right away? Not many (Moses is all I can think of off the top of my head)...

People need to remember, Kobe couldn't even buy a beer until his 4th season in the league.

MickeyMgl
02-07-2014, 07:26 PM
the only thing in my eyes that can rank kobe up a spot or so more is ONLY if he has one of those 2011 dirk nowitzki type of playoff and over achieves to beat a better team in the finals while taking over in a way that is crazy. look at how much respect dirk got after that 2011 performance. i think it moved him like 10 spots lol

Basically, Kobe can move up if he has a "Rumble In The Jungle" in his future - meaning, a season (as opposed to a fight) where he and the Lakers are not expected to do well (and they won't be for the next two seasons at least), but he carries them on his back to a deep playoff run as an underdog, like Ali against Foreman. Kobe Bryant is an underdog now. If he can "shock the world", he can still move up.

beliges
02-07-2014, 07:32 PM
Basically, if Kobe has a "Rumble In The Jungle" in his future - meaning, a season (as opposed to a fight) where he and the Lakers are not expected to do well (and they won't be for the next two seasons at least), but he carries them on his back to a deep playoff run as an underdog, like Ali against Foreman. Kobe Bryant is an underdog now. If he can "shock the world", he can still move up.

Its difficult to move up based on where he is. I would have him around 5-8. As far as a pure basketball player, he is one of those few few players with no weaknesses in his game. Guys like Magic, Bird, Lebron are all great but had weaknesses in their games. Kobe, along with MJ, did not have a weakness in his game. People just like to diminish his greatness because they simply do not like him. But yes, at this point, those who are clearly ahead of him are MJ, Kareem, Russell and Wilt. And it will be nearly impossible for Kobe to pass those players. But as far as guys like Magic and Shaq are concerned, I think you can easily put Kobe ahead of Magic and I think Kobe's already past Shaq. Its all about what you value when you judge a player. To be, the player as an individual and their ability on the floor is what I value most. And to me, the only guys I see that were better than Kobe were MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Russell. I feel Kobe was a better basketball player than Magic. But of course, people will disagree.

jerellh528
02-07-2014, 07:38 PM
Its difficult to move up based on where he is. I would have him around 5-8. As far as a pure basketball player, he is one of those few few players with no weaknesses in his game. Guys like Magic, Bird, Lebron are all great but had weaknesses in their games. Kobe, along with MJ, did not have a weakness in his game. People just like to diminish his greatness because they simply do not like him. But yes, at this point, those who are clearly ahead of him are MJ, Kareem, Russell and Wilt. And it will be nearly impossible for Kobe to pass those players. But as far as guys like Magic and Shaq are concerned, I think you can easily put Kobe ahead of Magic and I think Kobe's already past Shaq. Its all about what you value when you judge a player. To be, the player as an individual and their ability on the floor is what I value most. And to me, the only guys I see that were better than Kobe were MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Russell. I feel Kobe was a better basketball player than Magic. But of course, people will disagree.
As much as I don't like Lebron, he also has no weakness in his game, it used to be midrange and 3 point shooting but he's since became a great shooter, and ft% mid to high 70s isn't near bad enough to consider it a weakness.

MTar786
02-07-2014, 07:44 PM
Why? Most of the time if I want an objective opinion on a certain team, the last person I would go to would be a fan of that team. Too much emotion involved.


Call them out individually

well emotion in that ragard may be valuable. i don't think you watched almost EVERY laker game since like 99. Im a laker fan first.. and i can tell you.. if kobe stunk it up we wouldn't love him. what he brought is something we KNOW we won't see come often a time. We (as lakers fans) obviously want to watch a good product, not to mention, i think my observation on his (skills since i pretty much watched all his games) would be a better opinion to consider than your possible one?

btw maybe ur picking on some of the crazy fans out there.. but which team doesn't have those? I'm speaking unbiased here btw.. i was more a shaq fan than kobe initially.. shaw was an unstoppable force and i liked knowing that having shaq on my team made me feel confident wed win every year and it was clear as day every team feared him and couldn't contain him. the only thing i hated about shaq was that you could tell he would be on cruise control all season tip the playoffs. and team mates would join him. thats one thing i admire about kobes game.. he makes sure everyone plays their ***** off every night.. and leads with example

MickeyMgl
02-07-2014, 07:45 PM
Its difficult to move up based on where he is. I would have him around 5-8. As far as a pure basketball player, he is one of those few few players with no weaknesses in his game. Guys like Magic, Bird, Lebron are all great but had weaknesses in their games. Kobe, along with MJ, did not have a weakness in his game. People just like to diminish his greatness because they simply do not like him. But yes, at this point, those who are clearly ahead of him are MJ, Kareem, Russell and Wilt. And it will be nearly impossible for Kobe to pass those players. But as far as guys like Magic and Shaq are concerned, I think you can easily put Kobe ahead of Magic and I think Kobe's already past Shaq. Its all about what you value when you judge a player. To be, the player as an individual and their ability on the floor is what I value most. And to me, the only guys I see that were better than Kobe were MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Russell. I feel Kobe was a better basketball player than Magic. But of course, people will disagree.

One thing I've avoided in this thread is quibbling over where different posters have Bryant ranked, or who they have him behind. I have him more or less where you have him, but not behind/ahead of the same people. I chose to approach the topic as a subjective question: Given wherever each of us has him ranked, could he move up/down? Some people here have him at 10-15. I suspended my outrage and focused on the fact that they, naturally, have more room to move him up.

In general, it depends on where an individual has him ranked (although legacy isn't all about ranking, but still... ), and who he is ranked ahead of or behind. In general, though it's difficult for your list to move him up, there is room for him to move up in "legacy" (which perhaps could be measured as an aggregate of all fan lists).

MTar786
02-07-2014, 07:46 PM
Basically, Kobe can move up if he has a "Rumble In The Jungle" in his future - meaning, a season (as opposed to a fight) where he and the Lakers are not expected to do well (and they won't be for the next two seasons at least), but he carries them on his back to a deep playoff run as an underdog, like Ali against Foreman. Kobe Bryant is an underdog now. If he can "shock the world", he can still move up.

perfect example. I'm a huge fan of ali and boxing

MTar786
02-07-2014, 07:48 PM
eventually. But that may take a while. LeBron has a chance to get into the top 2-3, but I can't see him catching Jordan.

woah... top 2-3? lebrons not even better than shaq yet. shaq is #3 imo and could have been 1 if he was motivated enough

MTar786
02-07-2014, 07:52 PM
As much as I don't like Lebron, he also has no weakness in his game, it used to be midrange and 3 point shooting but he's since became a great shooter, and ft% mid to high 70s isn't near bad enough to consider it a weakness.

post play? fadeaway? everyone has weaknesses in their game

beliges
02-07-2014, 08:01 PM
As much as I don't like Lebron, he also has no weakness in his game, it used to be midrange and 3 point shooting but he's since became a great shooter, and ft% mid to high 70s isn't near bad enough to consider it a weakness.

He is not a great perimeter shooter, not a great FT shooter, does not have a good post game, does not have great foot-work, is not a great clutch shooter and has no real go-to move. Those are all weaknesses in his game I would say. But he makes up for that with his athleticism and his size and strength.

Chronz
02-07-2014, 08:07 PM
He is not a great perimeter shooter, not a great FT shooter, does not have a good post game, does not have great foot-work, is not a great clutch shooter and has no real go-to move. Those are all weaknesses in his game I would say. But he makes up for that with his athleticism and his size and strength.

What makes you think he doesn't have a good post game? His perimeter shot is pretty good so if thats a weakness, shows you how good he really is. No go to move? His go to move is breaking down the defense and getting the best shot for the TEAM. Id take that over a low% go to move.

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 09:04 PM
post play? fadeaway? everyone has weaknesses in their game

he is fine in both. Besides, why does he need use a fadeaway as a 6'9" SF?

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 09:05 PM
woah... top 2-3? lebrons not even better than shaq yet. shaq is #3 imo and could have been 1 if he was motivated enough

LeBron is already top 10 for me, and in his absolute prime. Of course he will climb. He isn't better than handful of guys he will end up passing yet. Doesn't mean he won't pass them.

sammyvine
02-07-2014, 09:18 PM
LeBron is already top 10 for me, and in his absolute prime. Of course he will climb. He isn't better than handful of guys he will end up passing yet. Doesn't mean he won't pass them.

you love lebron lol
you would lips him if you could

Hawkeye15
02-07-2014, 09:23 PM
you love lebron lol
you would lips him if you could

no I love basketball. Please enlighten me on how LeBron James won't end up one of the top 5 players to ever play....

beliges
02-07-2014, 10:37 PM
He is not a great perimeter shooter, not a great FT shooter, does not have a good post game, does not have great foot-work, is not a great clutch shooter and has no real go-to move. Those are all weaknesses in his game I would say. But he makes up for that with his athleticism and his size and strength.

What makes you think he doesn't have a good post game? His perimeter shot is pretty good so if thats a weakness, shows you how good he really is. No go to move? His go to move is breaking down the defense and getting the best shot for the TEAM. Id take that over a low% go to move.

Just based on what I've seen. You're free to disagree but I just find those aspects of lebrons game a weakness with the game on the line. Id love to put him on the perimeter and force him to make a jumper or Fts or get him in the post. He's shown that's not his strong suit. But I know people will.disagree because to some lebron simply can do no wrong.

NBA JAM
02-08-2014, 12:02 AM
If he adds more rings and ultimately if he could somehow although very unlikely pass Kareem on the all-time scoring list, he would move up on the all-time greatest's list and further his overall legacy.

Bostonjorge
02-08-2014, 01:57 AM
I think lakers can turn it around next year and give kobe a chance to win. I know a lot has to happen but it's not to far fetch either.

1. If lakers can win a lottery pick and get top 3 pick. Wiggins, Parker, embiid I would think in that order. 1st pick is best case scenario lets say they get 3rd and draft embiid.

2. Sign a 1 big time free agent of course lebron is the best case scenario but melo seem more and more likely.

3.Then sign a couple of strong role players like Marion, pierce, Hinrich or lowery. I know lakers can't sign them all but if first 2 steps fall in place then these guys will ask to play in LA.

This is enough for kobe to win and this will still be Kobe's team. Also being a comeback season this is a perfect set up for a legendary return. What the NBA needs.

MTar786
02-08-2014, 02:59 AM
no I love basketball. Please enlighten me on how LeBron James won't end up one of the top 5 players to ever play....

lol you should be lebrons PR boy

3RDASYSTEM
02-08-2014, 03:42 AM
I always wonder why you consistently use backup turned starter to put down Kobe when I view it as the opposite. I feel that working you way up to the pinnacle through hard work and improving your skills every day the way Kobe did is more impressive than a guy who was crowned the future goat day one. Just because he was a backup should not demean his place in history since that's exactly what you want from a backup, or any player for that matter. Working your hardest every day to become the best, I see no fault in that.

I use it because you and other fanatics over rank him, he was a backupguard, no backupguard is a best 10 player ever, working your way up to a starter is nothing special, that's what you are missing, a hard worker = ben Wallace, where does he rank alltime for centers/players?, same rank as bean Bryant and both were extremely hard workers, nothing wrong with that, now imagine if ben Wallace played in la market wouldn't his ranking be overrated and he would be a backup turned starter/allstar right?

you guys sure do look at players differently when it comes to truly ranking them right

nothing is wrong with a backup player, but don't get it twisted and act like hard work is the end of all end, he had the skills already being highschool player of year coming out in draft, working hard to 'start' because you are a backup is the reason I see it, and to think you are the next JORDAN is even comical at that backing up EDDIE JONES, the other top 10 player alltime who didn't win 5 rings, go figure

its almost making him into a sympathetic figure when mentioning his 'work ethic' to make him a top 10 player ever, its very boring to be quite honest, also longevity, that's boring also after watching a player for 10yrs, so how can he improve 7yrs later? what was kobe doing from year 10 that he didn't do in year 15 or 17 besides score and cry how the lakers are his team? all that hard work did pay off, to his brain cells

the same hard worker wanted out of la and would play on the moon now wants to retire a laker, the drafted laker baby wins again and again

its like me watching BRON for a decade now so how is he going to improve on his game? by adding 5pct point to his free throw mark? by going to the post? child please he wont because he already showed you what he is about so outside of him winning DPOY then he cant do anything to add to his resume HOF/top alltime wise for most part, he is who he is, only thing now is him getting banged up and injured from playing in post out of natural position, he's one of the best ever(my top 25 group), I had to expand it by 5 because its so many top notch players in each era

a smaller example is RUBIO, what in the hell is he doing that he didn't do when they drafted him and stashed his overrated *** overseas to develop nothing because he is who he is right? a over passer who can pass good but cant throw a rock in the ocean, and how has he panned out since rookie year til now? same player like everybody else in history unless you are bean Bryant of lakers
This sums up lakermediahype to me, if GINOBILI had played in laker market instead of spurs then his 3 rings/euro step/hustle/clutch play/heart/toughness/game/impact would be 10x on higher overranked level, he would be the greatest international player by far and I mean pau+dirk+kukoc+petrovic+shrempf+sarunas combined he would be that good in la market, fact

now does that make it basic enough for you?

Pierre The Poet
02-08-2014, 03:47 AM
As much as I don't like Lebron, he also has no weakness in his game, it used to be midrange and 3 point shooting but he's since became a great shooter, and ft% mid to high 70s isn't near bad enough to consider it a weakness.

The biggest weakness I ever saw in Lebron's game was that he kept choking in the finals and in tough playoff series. Since then he's been freakin awesome. But when I look at a player's legacy and career and have to compare him to other greats, I'm never gonna forget that. In some of those games he looked like a player that was point shaving or something, just randomly disappearing and never touching the ball.

3RDASYSTEM
02-08-2014, 03:50 AM
no I love basketball. Please enlighten me on how LeBron James won't end up one of the top 5 players to ever play....

Now barring injuries or death please enlighten me on how you couldn't figure this out rookie year 2003? or at worst top 10? why did it take 11yrs later and accolades you knew he would achieve just off eye test first 3yrs?

of course you love basketball because you knew BRON would end up possible top 5 before his career is up you just needed proof first(team+individual accolades combined), but given the media hype preNBA combined with his on court game/impact and nickname it was a given for most part mediawise, he just delivered on individual level extremely high which etches it in stone even more

3RDASYSTEM
02-08-2014, 03:53 AM
The biggest weakness I ever saw in Lebron's game was that he kept choking in the finals and in tough playoff series. Since then he's been freakin awesome. But when I look at a player's legacy and career and have to compare him to other greats, I'm never gonna forget that. In some of those games he looked like a player that was point shaving or something, just randomly disappearing and never touching the ball.

if that's the biggest weakness them im sure you would have said the same for other HOF players had they gotten to the finals with his support cast

did WEST choke for going 1 for 10 in finals?
did WILT choke for losing 5x out of 7 finals while losing all in 7 games?

of course he was froze out/pt shaving, did you not see his body language and aggression from 11' vs 12' finals? its like a joke on how he turned it off then on after playing the same way aggressive style since 03' rookie yr, that spurs series was just a bad series, they were the truth so I didn't see him point shaving he was just on a island all by himself, far different from a wade/bosh duo to lean on

Pierre The Poet
02-08-2014, 04:02 AM
if that's the biggest weakness them im sure you would have said the same for other HOF players had they gotten to the finals with his support cast

did WEST choke for going 1 for 10 in finals?
did WILT choke for losing 5x out of 7 finals while losing all in 7 games?

of course he was froze out/pt shaving, did you not see his body language and aggression from 11' vs 12' finals? its like a joke on how he turned it off then on after playing the same way aggressive style since 03' rookie yr, that spurs series was just a bad series, they were the truth so I didn't see him point shaving he was just on a island all by himself, far different from a wade/bosh duo to lean on

I think we agree but I'm not sure. 2011-12 finals, he choked. That's a weakness. And I don't know why you're asking me about Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain, I ain't that old.

zn23
02-08-2014, 06:12 AM
I'm really curious to see what 14 players you think are better than Kobe all-time? Or if you can even name 10. It's your opinion and I respect it. I'm just curious.

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Hakem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Jerry West

It's possible Kobe could be ranked ahead of some of these guys. Like I don't really mind if someone has him over the bottom 3, but I have a hard time ranking him ahead of players like LeBron James and Tim Duncan.

Unless Kobe wins an MVP or has a great statistical season I can't really place him in the top 10 in my list.

The truth is Kobe achieved everything through volume. Not that he wasn't a great player, which he was, but all his records and everything he achieved was through volume shooting. That's why he's about to break the record for the most bricks in NBA history this season.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 06:38 AM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Hakem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Jerry West

It's possible Kobe could be ranked ahead of some of these guys. Like I don't really mind if someone has him over the bottom 3, but I have a hard time ranking him ahead of players like LeBron James and Tim Duncan.

Unless Kobe wins an MVP or has a great statistical season I can't really place him in the top 10 in my list.

The truth is Kobe achieved everything through volume. Not that he wasn't a great player, which he was, but all his records and everything he achieved was through volume shooting. That's why he's about to break the record for the most bricks in NBA history this season.

Timmy and Kobe is debatable given the fact that Kobe has owned Duncan and the Spurs. Moses Malone is a joke and certainly not better than Kobe. Lebron hasn't surpassed Kobe yet and the majority of PSD already agrees of you look at other threads pertaining to that debate. Karl Malone doesn't belong ahead of Kobe either. I get the feeling you tried to scrap up as many names as you could in a failing effort because I doubt there is anyone here that would agree with your list. I certainly don't agree but that's your opinion and it seems like you posess no objectivity at all. Just by this list I can't help but get the idea that you're an irrational Kobe hater.

holditdown
02-08-2014, 11:00 AM
Timmy and Kobe is debatable given the fact that Kobe has owned Duncan and the Spurs. Moses Malone is a joke and certainly not better than Kobe. Lebron hasn't surpassed Kobe yet and the majority of PSD already agrees of you look at other threads pertaining to that debate. Karl Malone doesn't belong ahead of Kobe either. I get the feeling you tried to scrap up as many names as you could in a failing effort because I doubt there is anyone here that would agree with your list. I certainly don't agree but that's your opinion and it seems like you posess no objectivity at all. Just by this list I can't help but get the idea that you're an irrational Kobe hater.

Very few people who know basketball would say that Kobe brings more to the table for a team than Tim Duncan. He posts up, crashes the boards, defends the rim, passes out of double teams, etc.

Just throwing that out there.

3RDASYSTEM
02-08-2014, 12:03 PM
I think we agree but I'm not sure. 2011-12 finals, he choked. That's a weakness. And I don't know why you're asking me about Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain, I ain't that old.

you don't have to be that old to be educated on past and present happenings in sport

I mention WEST and WILT because I guess they choked away finals after finals but since you are so young and full of similac then I assume you only start watching ball in 03' or around that time since you had no clue HOF/Legends have choked away regular season and playoff games, why is the finals any different than a regular season or any other playoff game? it's how I look at the big picture

how in the **** can BRON choke in a 7game series but not choke away 82games plus the other three 7game rd series prior to the ''''''''THE MIGHTY MEDIAHYPED FINALS''''''''''? or how in the hell is he not a choker for his whole career since he had to join a 'superteam' to win...did you not watch BRON in 11' playoffs prior to the finals vs MAVS? did he not look like the best player ever first 3 rounds? duh right? then he turned choker next 6games? ******** bologna because I felt like he was froze out when comparing his aggression from 11' vs 12' finals series, its clear as day if you ask me

I bet you didn't know WEST/BIRD/MAGIC played on superteams either did you? I bet you didn't know TRAGIC MAGIC choked away a finals but has 5 rings out of 9 finals trips do you? its no wonder psd is a joke of a forum when you cant follow the reasoning why I mention WEST/WILT with BRON choking

WEST won only 1 title in 10 nba finals appearances, how in the **** is that not choking your nba life away? and being the nba 'logo' on top of that

RUSSELL should have been the logo hands down since the ******** game is based on '''RINGS'''

1 out of 10
or 11 out of 13 rings?

3RDASYSTEM
02-08-2014, 12:05 PM
Very few people who know basketball would say that Kobe brings more to the table for a team than Tim Duncan. He posts up, crashes the boards, defends the rim, passes out of double teams, etc.

Just throwing that out there.

and he wasn't a backupfrontcourt player sitting behind the frontcourt equal of a EDDIE JONES

3RDASYSTEM
02-08-2014, 12:17 PM
He is not a great perimeter shooter, not a great FT shooter, does not have a good post game, does not have great foot-work, is not a great clutch shooter and has no real go-to move. Those are all weaknesses in his game I would say. But he makes up for that with his athleticism and his size and strength.

Its funny you mention all this while the scouting report rookie year said all he needed to do was work on free throws, he had no post moves then because he wanted to freelance and create on perimeter in CLE but then understood it was needed in MIA similar to JORDAN did in post with BULLS, JORDAN improved his footwork when he was slow and older and had to pump fake JALEN ROSE and others to get by, whats so special about that? before that when younger he would just take his freak of nature hidden strength and just go up and dunk, nothing special about that except the natural talent and dunk

BRON had 26ft range in HS scouting report, so if he wasn't great he had the legit ability

once you start mentioning footwork and no real go to move it just reminds me of what per/ts% has done to this forum

a player that has been unstoppable for a decade has no go to move? damn you're silly as they come

Its like being mad at SHAQ because he couldn't fadeway dreamshake but I didn't see DREAM just brute funk dunking on anyone in his path because he wasn't that freak of nature style, he was more skill and footwork, which doesn't take away from neither player, same with BRON

BRON could do all of the so called weakness **** you claim he just chooses not to, it reminds me sort of like those really HOF true legend players who can play defense when locked in and just on that only, scary sight

todu82
02-08-2014, 01:06 PM
As one of the top 10-12 players of all time.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 01:20 PM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Hakem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Jerry West

It's possible Kobe could be ranked ahead of some of these guys. Like I don't really mind if someone has him over the bottom 3, but I have a hard time ranking him ahead of players like LeBron James and Tim Duncan.

Unless Kobe wins an MVP or has a great statistical season I can't really place him in the top 10 in my list.

The truth is Kobe achieved everything through volume. Not that he wasn't a great player, which he was, but all his records and everything he achieved was through volume shooting. That's why he's about to break the record for the most bricks in NBA history this season.

i second this list and this post.

Matter.
02-08-2014, 01:22 PM
Very few people who know basketball would say that Kobe brings more to the table for a team than Tim Duncan. He posts up, crashes the boards, defends the rim, passes out of double teams, etc.

Just throwing that out there.

and he wasn't a backupfrontcourt player sitting behind the frontcourt equal of a EDDIE JONES

Goes to show you how hard kobe worked

P&GRealist
02-08-2014, 02:15 PM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Hakem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Jerry West

It's possible Kobe could be ranked ahead of some of these guys. Like I don't really mind if someone has him over the bottom 3, but I have a hard time ranking him ahead of players like LeBron James and Tim Duncan.

Unless Kobe wins an MVP or has a great statistical season I can't really place him in the top 10 in my list.

The truth is Kobe achieved everything through volume. Not that he wasn't a great player, which he was, but all his records and everything he achieved was through volume shooting. That's why he's about to break the record for the most bricks in NBA history this season.

Karl Malone above Kobe?

Your love for Kobe has no bounds.


Oh yes, Jerry West 1-9 in the finals over 5-2 Kobe makes tons of sense as well. Kobe is the 2nd greatest 2guard while West is the 3rd. But of course like I said: your love for Kobe has no bounds

P&GRealist
02-08-2014, 02:17 PM
i second this list and this post.

That's a cheap way of getting your opinion out there.

Why don't you grow a set and give your reasoning to justify your stance.

P&GRealist
02-08-2014, 02:20 PM
Moses Malone over Kobe, that's another good one.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 02:42 PM
Very few people who know basketball would say that Kobe brings more to the table for a team than Tim Duncan. He posts up, crashes the boards, defends the rim, passes out of double teams, etc.

Just throwing that out there.

That's why I said it was debatable. I love Timmy so don't get me wrong. I just don't know how Tim would have faired in the league if he didn't step into a great situation with Pop & David Robinson, or without Manu & Tony Parker his entire career. I mean, you have to admit the guy was very fortunate himself to not only step into a great situation, but also have his HOF coach & his championship core of players his entire career.

Timmy's game is great and there isn't anybody that wouldn't want him as their starting PF. I just think he was a bigger product of Pop's system than most people think. Pop has shown over the years that his system keeps things simple and turns average players like Kawai Leonard into almost a Finals MVP last year. I am no way saying Tim is an average player so don't take that the wrong way. That is just an example of the greatness of Pop's system just as Kobe being benefited by PJ & the triangle.

Timmy is great. I have just never seen him have to battle with great opposing PF's throughout his time in the league aside from KG. It wasn't too long PSD was debating how KG possible would've have been better than Timmy if he had a better team. While Kobe has proven time and time why he was the best of his generation. I don't wanna discredit Timmy. I just wish that people like you would judge him and hold him to the same standards as other players. I think he often gets a pass because he's such a likable and humble guy.

nickdymez
02-08-2014, 02:42 PM
We really hate kobe here. Moses Malone greater than Kobe? Wow

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 02:50 PM
i second this list and this post.

It was a bad list to be honest so great judgement on your part.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 02:54 PM
and he wasn't a backupfrontcourt player sitting behind the frontcourt equal of a EDDIE JONES

Does anybody ever even read this guy's^ posts??? It's probably best to just not acknowledge him. You sir go to the ignore list.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 03:01 PM
That's a cheap way of getting your opinion out there.

Why don't you grow a set and give your reasoning to justify your stance.


It was a bad list to be honest so great judgement on your part.

individual performance over rings which are out of a players control.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 03:04 PM
individual performance over rings which are out of a players control.

Huh??? I'm taking it that you didn't even really look at his list if that's your reasoning.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 03:05 PM
Huh???

which part of that are you hung up on.

P&GRealist
02-08-2014, 03:27 PM
John Stockton, Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing should all be ranked above Kobe.

So too should David Robinson and Walt Clyde Frazier.

Goose17
02-08-2014, 03:36 PM
Don't like Kobe. I respect his game though, his career is done.

He's somewhere in the top 10-20 all time for me. Not much he can do to improve that.

Pierre The Poet
02-08-2014, 03:46 PM
you don't have to be that old to be educated on past and present happenings in sport

I mention WEST and WILT because I guess they choked away finals after finals but since you are so young and full of similac then I assume you only start watching ball in 03' or around that time since you had no clue HOF/Legends have choked away regular season and playoff games, why is the finals any different than a regular season or any other playoff game? it's how I look at the big picture

how in the **** can BRON choke in a 7game series but not choke away 82games plus the other three 7game rd series prior to the ''''''''THE MIGHTY MEDIAHYPED FINALS''''''''''? or how in the hell is he not a choker for his whole career since he had to join a 'superteam' to win...did you not watch BRON in 11' playoffs prior to the finals vs MAVS? did he not look like the best player ever first 3 rounds? duh right? then he turned choker next 6games? ******** bologna because I felt like he was froze out when comparing his aggression from 11' vs 12' finals series, its clear as day if you ask me

I bet you didn't know WEST/BIRD/MAGIC played on superteams either did you? I bet you didn't know TRAGIC MAGIC choked away a finals but has 5 rings out of 9 finals trips do you? its no wonder psd is a joke of a forum when you cant follow the reasoning why I mention WEST/WILT with BRON choking

WEST won only 1 title in 10 nba finals appearances, how in the **** is that not choking your nba life away? and being the nba 'logo' on top of that

RUSSELL should have been the logo hands down since the ******** game is based on '''RINGS'''

1 out of 10
or 11 out of 13 rings?

First of all, I honestly don't compare players like Kobe and Lebron to West and Wilt because I've never seen them play. Calling me young and full of similac because I wasn't watching basketball in 1968 is ********. But I understand the game and have done my research, know who did what and when, but I didn't SEE it. And if I didn't see then I can't judge because things are misleading. I SAW what Lebron did. Choke. I don't know why West won 1 out of 10. Stats only tell half of the story. So I'm sorry if I'm not old enough to have seen games that weren't even on TV at the time.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2014, 07:07 PM
Now barring injuries or death please enlighten me on how you couldn't figure this out rookie year 2003? or at worst top 10? why did it take 11yrs later and accolades you knew he would achieve just off eye test first 3yrs?

of course you love basketball because you knew BRON would end up possible top 5 before his career is up you just needed proof first(team+individual accolades combined), but given the media hype preNBA combined with his on court game/impact and nickname it was a given for most part mediawise, he just delivered on individual level extremely high which etches it in stone even more

uh, yeah. I don't care about his hype, his career is all that defines his, or anyones ranking.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2014, 07:09 PM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Hakem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Jerry West

It's possible Kobe could be ranked ahead of some of these guys. Like I don't really mind if someone has him over the bottom 3, but I have a hard time ranking him ahead of players like LeBron James and Tim Duncan.

Unless Kobe wins an MVP or has a great statistical season I can't really place him in the top 10 in my list.

The truth is Kobe achieved everything through volume. Not that he wasn't a great player, which he was, but all his records and everything he achieved was through volume shooting. That's why he's about to break the record for the most bricks in NBA history this season.

I don't think any of the bold have an argument over Kobe in the slightest.

beliges
02-08-2014, 07:12 PM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Hakem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Jerry West

It's possible Kobe could be ranked ahead of some of these guys. Like I don't really mind if someone has him over the bottom 3, but I have a hard time ranking him ahead of players like LeBron James and Tim Duncan.

Unless Kobe wins an MVP or has a great statistical season I can't really place him in the top 10 in my list.

The truth is Kobe achieved everything through volume. Not that he wasn't a great player, which he was, but all his records and everything he achieved was through volume shooting. That's why he's about to break the record for the most bricks in NBA history this season.

I don't think any of the bold have an argument over Kobe in the slightest.

Not sure why you have such a hard time when.its not even debatable kobe has achieved greater success throughout his career than those guys you highlighted. I guess im not sure how you come to your conclusion other than its simply your own subjective opinion. Because objectively speaking, not one of those guys have had a career that can match kobes.

beliges
02-08-2014, 07:14 PM
meant to quote that other dude with the terrible analysis.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2014, 07:20 PM
meant to quote that other dude with the terrible analysis.

ahh. I was like, "wtf"

beliges
02-08-2014, 08:15 PM
meant to quote that other dude with the terrible analysis.

ahh. I was like, "wtf"

we coo we coo.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 09:16 PM
Don't like Kobe. I respect his game though, his career is done.

He's somewhere in the top 10-20 all time for me. Not much he can do to improve that.

Please name 19 players who have had a better career than Kobe.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:29 PM
I don't think any of the bold have an argument over Kobe in the slightest.

i have a lot of respect for your opinions but it's possible that some people value efficiency and teamwork more than others. i know that's the case for me.

he's the best of the jordan clones but that's not necessarily a great thing.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 09:29 PM
which part of that are you hung up on.

The part where you co-signed a terrible Top 15 list with players that belong no where above Kobe and then your ridiculous reasoning for it.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:31 PM
The part where you co-signed a terrible Top 15 list with players that belong no where above Kobe and then your ridiculous reasoning for it.

Karl Malone has superior numbers and efficiency that Kobe couldn't even dream of. Plus he was a much better teammate. I don't see what's so crazy about it.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 09:31 PM
i have a lot of respect for your opinions but it's possible that some people value efficiency and teamwork more than others. i know that's the case for me.

he's the best of the jordan clones but that's not necessarily a great thing.

Your ignorance screams hatred and no objectivity whatsoever no matter how you try to justify it. If Hawkeye thinks you're wrong that's saying alot about a matter pertaining to Kobe.

I can already tell debating this with you will lead us nowhere fast so let's just let you be.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:33 PM
Your ignorance screams hatred and no objectivity whatsoever no matter how you try to justify it. If Hawkeye thinks you're wrong that's saying alot about a matter pertaining to Kobe.

you disagree that he is a poor jordan clone. that's fine. the numbers support my claim though. he was an incredible scorer who reduced his teammates more often than not to spectators (as did jordan). however jordan was incredibly efficient and Kobe was not, while also turning the ball over quite a bit more.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2014, 09:36 PM
i have a lot of respect for your opinions but it's possible that some people value efficiency and teamwork more than others. i know that's the case for me.

he's the best of the jordan clones but that's not necessarily a great thing.

His ranking is higher than O, either Malone, and West. I can't see how a good argument can be made those guys are ahead of him.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:38 PM
His ranking is higher than O, either Malone, and West. I can't see how a good argument can be made those guys are ahead of him.

what value are you giving to championships?

Hawkeye15
02-08-2014, 09:39 PM
Karl Malone has superior numbers and efficiency that Kobe couldn't even dream of. Plus he was a much better teammate. I don't see what's so crazy about it.

He also wasn't much of a defender and fell on the biggest stage both times he got there. No shame in losing to Jordan, but Malone's play dipped in his finals playoff runs, especially in 97', where he was clearly not the most impactful player on his team in the playoffs.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:42 PM
He also wasn't much of a defender and fell on the biggest stage both times he got there. No shame in losing to Jordan, but Malone's play dipped in his finals playoff runs, especially in 97', where he was clearly not the most impactful player on his team in the playoffs.

i put very very little stock in playoff performance when evaluating someones career but i can appreciate the criticism.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 09:42 PM
Karl Malone has superior numbers and efficiency that Kobe couldn't even dream of. Plus he was a much better teammate. I don't see what's so crazy about it.

I don't get how you can compare a PF's efficiency to a perimeter player's efficiency. It seems you're grabbing at straws here to justify your claim. We can compare Tyson Chandler's efficiency numbers from his championship year with any perimeter player in history and he'll blow them out of the water as well.

It also didn't hurt Karl to have the all-time assist leader setting him up for easy buckets throughout his career.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2014, 09:43 PM
what value are you giving to championships?

depends how you win them. In the long equation of greatness, they hold no more weight than stats, accolades, awards, and a handful of other factors. But when you are down 0-5, it hurts. Bad. Moses had a GREAT playoff run in 83' for his ring, but was fairly pedestrian by his standards in his other playoff runs. Karl, I just spoke about. Oscar's chip came after his prime. And West was awesome, but suffered a ton of finals defeats.

Kobe no doubt will get his ranking from me mostly due to longevity and his team success to some degree. In his absolute peak, his team sucked. Which is why he is stuck around 9-10 for me, and will probably never rise.

Tony_Starks
02-08-2014, 09:44 PM
Karl Malone has superior numbers and efficiency that Kobe couldn't even dream of. Plus he was a much better teammate. I don't see what's so crazy about it.

When you say subjective stuff like "he was a better teammate" it screams of bias and hating. If we were to judge by that criteria Jordan was notoriously by all accounts a horrible teammate.

On topic, not to be funny or belittling, but even the biggest Kobe hater in the world would ever dare entertain a notion as blasphemous as Karl Malone being a better player. Karl Malone himself would even disagree with you....

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:44 PM
Your ignorance screams hatred and no objectivity whatsoever no matter how you try to justify it. If Hawkeye thinks you're wrong that's saying alot about a matter pertaining to Kobe.

I can already tell debating this with you will lead us nowhere fast so let's just let you be.

that's because your only case IMO is related to playoff success. and you obviously have a bias based on your username and avatar.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2014, 09:44 PM
i put very very little stock in playoff performance when evaluating someones career but i can appreciate the criticism.

But you have to. Regular season success is the bulk, but the playoffs are where the intensity and competition rise and define who is the best. It's why I would take Barkley over KG for instance.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:45 PM
When you say subjective stuff like "he was a better teammate" it screams of bias and hating. If we were to judge by that criteria Jordan was notoriously by all accounts a horrible teammate.

On topic, not to be funny or belittling, but even the biggest Kobe hater in the world would ever dare entertain a notion as blasphemous as Karl Malone being a better player. Karl Malone himself would even disagree with you....
i'll be more specific then. i am not referring to off-court activities. i am referring to selfish basketball.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:49 PM
I don't get how you can compare a PF's efficiency to a perimeter player's efficiency. It seems you're grabbing at straws here to justify your claim. We can compare Tyson Chandler's efficiency numbers from his championship year with any perimeter player in history and he'll blow them out of the water as well.

It also didn't hurt Karl to have the all-time assist leader setting him up for easy buckets throughout his career.
granted Kobe did not have Stockton and that is a positive factor for Malone.

i don't think it matters what position. in my opinion it's a fair comparison because they both took the most shots by a wide margin on their teams.

if the goal of a basketball game is to get the most points you can out of a finite amount of possessions then having the awareness to take good shots and get a high return is on the player no matter what.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2014, 09:50 PM
i'll be more specific then. i am not referring to off-court activities. i am referring to selfish basketball.

it's well documented that Kobe is not a great teammate. He isolates himself, never really hangs out with his teammates, and is tough to deal with, and was a big cause of the Shaq leaving LA situation. Jordan was like that, outside the fact he hung out with his teammates. But at the end of the day, being a good teammate doesn't factor into my all time rankings.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2014, 09:51 PM
granted Kobe did not have Stockton and that is a positive factor for Malone.

i don't think it matters what position. in my opinion it's a fair comparison because they both took the most shots by a wide margin on their teams.

if the goal of a basketball game is to get the most points you can out of an finite amount of possessions then having the awareness to take good shots and get a high return is on the player no matter what.

to be fair, if you start measuring scoring efficiency with wings and bigs, you are better off using Ofrtg instead of TS%, which all time bigs will dominate in. PER levels the playing field a bit, since it helps a volume scorer like Kobe.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:55 PM
But you have to. Regular season success is the bulk, but the playoffs are where the intensity and competition rise and define who is the best. It's why I would take Barkley over KG for instance.

and there are tons of people who agree with that philosophy, just not me.

playoff success is not only a tiny portion of a players overall basketball but it's also greatly influenced by the caliber of your teammates. in addition human beings tend to attach great meaning to emotional moments like playoff basketball. playoff basketball is when the fan in us takes over and the eye test is most unreliable.

my personal belief is you take all that crap out so you can look objectively at what they did over the bulk of the career, without bias and with the benefit of advanced stats.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 09:55 PM
that's because your only case IMO is related to playoff success. and you obviously have a bias based on your username and avatar.

I'm a Laker fan and a Kobe fan, yes. However, I can still remain objective. If it's possible for me to do so it should certainly be possible for you and proves there is hope for you yet.

Supreme LA
02-08-2014, 09:57 PM
granted Kobe did not have Stockton and that is a positive factor for Malone.

i don't think it matters what position. in my opinion it's a fair comparison because they both took the most shots by a wide margin on their teams.

if the goal of a basketball game is to get the most points you can out of an finite amount of possessions then having the awareness to take good shots and get a high return is on the player no matter what.

Yes, but I think you missed my point. A PF is often a lot closer to the basket and taking many more high percentage fg's than a perimeter player who often must create their own shots. Malone was hugely benefited by having Stockton set him up under the basket for many of his points, not to mention the amount of free throws he shot.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 09:58 PM
it's well documented that Kobe is not a great teammate. He isolates himself, never really hangs out with his teammates, and is tough to deal with, and was a big cause of the Shaq leaving LA situation. Jordan was like that, outside the fact he hung out with his teammates. But at the end of the day, being a good teammate doesn't factor into my all time rankings.

and the things you just mentioned mean little to me as well.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 10:01 PM
I'm a Laker fan and a Kobe fan, yes. However, I can still remain objective. If it's possible for me to do so it should certainly be possible for you and proves there is hope for you yet.

lol. sweet.

i get that longevity and playoff success are an incredibly important factor for some of you, i can respect it, i just don't personally believe in measuring players by it the way you guys do.

he's a great great player but he's a poor mans Jordan to me (or a rich mans Carter depending on which point of view you'd like to take) and that's in the 15-20 area for me.

Jamiecballer
02-08-2014, 10:06 PM
Yes, but I think you missed my point. A PF is often a lot closer to the basket and taking many more high percentage fg's than a perimeter player who often must create their own shots. Malone was hugely benefited by having Stockton set him up under the basket for many of his points, not to mention the amount of free throws he shot.

i didn't miss it like you think i did. yes, bigs play closer to the basket. but regarding free throws, since i assume that you are pointing out that they aid efficiency, i think it's fair to point out that

a) perimeter players have the added benefit of the 3 point shot that guys like Malone don't have.
b) the decision to settle for jumpshots instead of taking it to the basket really shouldn't be an excuse
c) kobe has taken a **** ton of free throws himself.

but agree about Stockton. thing is, for me, as soon as you start trying to equalize the field by scrutinizing who had who for teammates, etc, and what effect each player may or may have not had, you are now ranking guys based on fantasy. i prefer to deal with what happened, as cold as that may sound.

Tony_Starks
02-08-2014, 10:38 PM
I can gaurantee you the Karl Malones of the world don't reflect on their careers, look at advanced stats and say "damn I was one helluva efficient player."

I can promise you he has probably woke up many a nights thinking "damn, I wish I could've beat Magic or MJ JUST once."

Some people don't value rings too much or feel they are merely a product of right team right time. But in the grand scheme of things that's what separates the greats from the all time greats, your performance on the big stage and having the rings to show for it.