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View Full Version : K Love with monster game...again



spreadeagle
02-02-2014, 12:41 AM
This guy is quietly having a BEAST of a season. Tonight had 43 and 19 on 54% Fg and 17 of 18 from the line (too bad they lost somehow) On the year he is averaging 25-13-4 with a very low T.O rate of 2.3 for someone who has the ball and plays the minutes he does. Very under appreciated season IMO. Minny better do something to keep this guy happy

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-02-2014, 12:43 AM
? He's considered the best PF in the game.. Wtf are you babbling about? And why is this a thread?

TheMightyHumph
02-02-2014, 12:45 AM
This guy is quietly having a BEAST of a season. Tonight had 43 and 18 on 54% Fg and 17 of 18 from the line (too bad they lost somehow) On the year he is averaging 25-13-4 with a very low T.O rate of 2.3 for someone who has the ball and plays the minutes he does. Very under appreciated season IMO. Minny better do something to keep this guy happy

'Too bad they lost somehow'.

black1605
02-02-2014, 12:46 AM
Trade him to Charlotte! Interior defense be damned!

-Kobe24-TJ19-
02-02-2014, 12:47 AM
too late now, Laker he will be, definetly

Dade County
02-02-2014, 12:50 AM
I don't think theirs anything they ca do to keep him in Minny.

dnl123
02-02-2014, 01:02 AM
Honestly I'm a Wolves fan and I am coming to terms with losing Love. He's never been on a winning team and even though there are plenty of reasons for that outside of him at some point the superstar has to propel his team to win close games (we're like 0-12 in games decided by less than 5 points). I don't think he's good enough of a defensive player player to lead his team to a playoff run as the "main guy", but he won't come cheap and honestly the Lakers have nothing to offer anyone so I don't see him getting traded there. It would have to be in free agency and if Love doesn't sign a new deal (which he won't) he is 100% getting traded.

Tony_Starks
02-02-2014, 01:08 AM
And another loss..... again. Seems like he's destined to be a Laker so I guess I should get used to it.....

UPRock
02-02-2014, 01:17 AM
I'm going to LOL hard if he ends up on a team not named the Lakers

naps
02-02-2014, 02:00 AM
Seeing Lakers fans reactions about Love nowadays makes me wanna see Love in different uniform than the Lakers. It be super funny when they will be all saying Love is not a great player and not a player who can take pressure in LA. Like they were all hailing Dwight when he was traded to LA and then all of a sudden Dwight became a trash when he left.

DillyDill
02-02-2014, 02:07 AM
Lakers or Knicks I'm calling it both will have money come 15

DaLakerz Rulz
02-02-2014, 02:10 AM
Seeing Lakers fans reactions about Love nowadays makes me wanna see Love in different uniform than the Lakers. It be super funny when they will be all saying Love is not a great player and not a player who can take pressure in LA. Like they were all hailing Dwight when he was traded to LA and then all of a sudden Dwight became a trash when he left.

?? Laker fans were saying Dwight was trash throughout the season...

John Walls Era
02-02-2014, 02:12 AM
Another loss by the Twolves.

Cal827
02-02-2014, 02:12 AM
From a sports perspective (NOT A MONEY PERSPECTIVE), I feel bad for Love. This is the third time, I've heard him get near 40-20, and the team still lost the damn game. He's doing his part. It's a shame that they can't get consistent. They NEED to go out and chase a legitimate PG. Rubio is a good passer, but how much longer can you possibly wait, when a player of his Caliber can opt out soon.

Even if it means trading away first rounders and maybe prospects, they should really look to getting a starting PG. (E.g. Lin, Lowry). As a Raptor fan, I love what Lowry is doing and I hope we can keep him, but if he doesn't want to resign... Just imagine this Lowry with Love and Pekovic down low

BenFrank
02-02-2014, 02:29 AM
Lakers or Knicks I'm calling it both will have money come 15

So will the Rockets and there no state income tax.. fwiw..

naps
02-02-2014, 02:37 AM
?? Laker fans were saying Dwight was trash throughout the season...

Not until his feud with Kobe came out. Not until it was pretty guaranteed he was not returning to LA. Remember when he was traded? LA fans were acting he was the second coming of Shaq. Now they say he's trash LOL.

mdm692
02-02-2014, 03:43 AM
?? Laker fans were saying Dwight was trash throughout the season...

Was that after or before the fan base crowned them champions without a single game being played?

jp611
02-02-2014, 03:52 AM
Love's going to Chicago.

PurpleJesus
02-02-2014, 04:19 AM
Love is as good as gone, you can see the frustration he has when he has games like this, and no help.

And Love obviously wants to play for the Lakers because he is from California...wait, no he isnt.

PurpleJesus
02-02-2014, 04:21 AM
I wouldnt mind that. I might jump on a bandwagon to whatever team he goes to, unless it is the Knicks or Lakers.

AEWyatt7
02-02-2014, 04:30 AM
Bring love to phx

DillyDill
02-02-2014, 06:50 AM
So will the Rockets and there no state income tax.. fwiw..

Houston a gr8 choice the perfect player next to Supes with his shooting. But will you guys have the money with harden, parsons and Supes signed?

Drummond#1
02-02-2014, 07:29 AM
2015-16 Lakers:

PG - Marshall
SG- Kobe (final season)
SF- Young
PF- Love
C- Embiid, Vonliegh or Randle
6th Man- Meeks

Is this a playoff contender?
Is this much better than what the Wolves have now?
If the Lakers get a top pick next year and take Randall or Embiid I could see it.
They only have five players on the payroll next year. One being Nash who will most likely retire.

Goose17
02-02-2014, 07:35 AM
If Minny are smart they'll trade him now for a haul. Even if it's a sign and trade. Get everything you can for him, sell high mother****ers sell high!

Even if they magically snatched an 8th seed they don't have the talent to make a real run, better trading him for young talent and picks.

Both Phoenix and Boston have a hoard of draft picks right now.

DitchDat
02-02-2014, 07:46 AM
So similar to KG's situation in Minny back in the day.

Drummond#1
02-02-2014, 07:50 AM
So similar to KG's situation in Minny back in the day.

At least KG had Spree and Cassell for a minute. Love has Pek and a bunch of scrubs.

Rubio hasn't panned out and cannot shoot. Martin is Martin. And Chase unfortunately has been injured his entire career and was never able to meet his potential.

True Sports Fan
02-02-2014, 11:18 AM
2015-16 Lakers:

PG - Marshall
SG- Kobe (final season)
SF- Young
PF- Love
C- Embiid, Vonliegh or Randle
6th Man- Meeks

Is this a playoff contender?
Is this much better than what the Wolves have now?
If the Lakers get a top pick next year and take Randall or Embiid I could see it.
They only have five players on the payroll next year. One being Nash who will most likely retire. Wait..... You mean they aren't signing Melo, LeBron, KD and every other star FA? :(

VikesTwinsWolve
02-02-2014, 11:22 AM
Another troll/pipe dream thread! Shocking. Lakers? Yeah right! I could see him in Portland tho.

ManningToTyree
02-02-2014, 11:38 AM
Idk where he will end up but they would have to tie him down to keep him in Minnesota

THE MTL
02-02-2014, 12:43 PM
His stats don't contribute to the success of the team. I always hear of monster games from love only to find out his team still lost. And yeah Minny better do something cause he is as good as gone. Especially in that 1 game where he almost took his Jersey off

THE MTL
02-02-2014, 12:49 PM
Lakers or Knicks I'm calling it both will have money come 15

So will the Rockets and there no state income tax.. fwiw..

No way....not after you guys pay Parsons...... He'll get a contract around what Gallinari got...so u looking at 12 million per year.

king4day
02-02-2014, 12:55 PM
I hope the Suns can somehow swing him. Up and coming young team. Add a rebounding PF and the Suns could become serious threats out west.

Sly Guy
02-02-2014, 12:59 PM
'Too bad they lost somehow'.

everytime I see this, a little part of me dies inside. KLove deserves better than this. He's a huge talent, with a terrible team. He's this decade's Kevin Garnett.

nycericanguy
02-02-2014, 01:22 PM
Love's supporting cast isn't that bad. Pek is a beast, he's turned into a very efficient 20/10 C per 36 and he plays both ends.

Martin is a sniper and gives you 20ppg on solid efficiency.

Rubio is a good defensive, rebounding and passing PG. yea he can't shoot, but they have Barea off the bench too.

Brewer has been solid for 2-3 years now.

Wasn't everyone saying MIN should win 50+ games with this cast before the year?

Melo won 54 games last year with the same type of cast if not worse. And as unfavorably as Melo is looked at on PSD, all he has done is WIN every single year no matter what garbage he has had around him. he's never had a losing sseason even once! though that's in jeopardy this year.

Goose17
02-02-2014, 02:29 PM
Melo won 54 games last year with the same type of cast if not worse. And as unfavorably as Melo is looked at on PSD, all he has done is WIN every single year no matter what garbage he has had around him. he's never had a losing sseason even once! though that's in jeopardy this year.

Melo had the reigning defensive player of the year and a guy who won sixth man of the year (who cares how he's playing now you're talking about then). How is that the same situation?

nycericanguy
02-02-2014, 02:41 PM
Melo had the reigning defensive player of the year and a guy who won sixth man of the year (who cares how he's playing now you're talking about then). How is that the same situation?

JR wasn't great last year, he was still a low 40's shooter like always. Kmart has been better this year than JR was last year.

And Tyson wasn't DPOY last year, you say "who cares how he's playing now we're talking about then"... yet you bring up an award Tyson DIDN'T win last year?...lol. Double standard much?

Pek this year has easily been better than Tyson was last year.

And even a non shooting Rubio wipes the floor with Felton ANY year.

Sandman
02-02-2014, 02:46 PM
Love's supporting cast isn't that bad. Pek is a beast, he's turned into a very efficient 20/10 C per 36 and he plays both ends.

Martin is a sniper and gives you 20ppg on solid efficiency.

Rubio is a good defensive, rebounding and passing PG. yea he can't shoot, but they have Barea off the bench too.

Brewer has been solid for 2-3 years now.

Wasn't everyone saying MIN should win 50+ games with this cast before the year?

Melo won 54 games last year with the same type of cast if not worse. And as unfavorably as Melo is looked at on PSD, all he has done is WIN every single year no matter what garbage he has had around him. he's never had a losing sseason even once! though that's in jeopardy this year.
they are a bad combo. the paint is a doormat vs. minnesota.

odiz
02-02-2014, 02:47 PM
This guy is quietly having a BEAST of a season. Tonight had 43 and 19 on 54% Fg and 17 of 18 from the line (too bad they lost somehow) On the year he is averaging 25-13-4 with a very low T.O rate of 2.3 for someone who has the ball and plays the minutes he does. Very under appreciated season IMO. Minny better do something to keep this guy happy

^ They lost because they play horrible defense and Love is the main contributor to that.

Goose17
02-02-2014, 03:44 PM
JR wasn't great last year, he was still a low 40's shooter like always. Kmart has been better this year than JR was last year.

And Tyson wasn't DPOY last year, you say "who cares how he's playing now we're talking about then"... yet you bring up an award Tyson DIDN'T win last year?...lol. Double standard much?

Pek this year has easily been better than Tyson was last year.

And even a non shooting Rubio wipes the floor with Felton ANY year.


JR Smith might not shoot as well as Martin but the difference is JR Smith did more for the Knicks than spot up for shots. He was rebounding and even playing at a decent level defensively. Martin doesn't do that. He was better at creating shots for himself as well, not great but better, last year 42% of JRs shots were assisted on, this year 66% of Martins shots have been assisted on.

And you're forgetting that the Knicks are in the East, which has been the weaker conference for a very long time.

albertajaysfan
02-02-2014, 03:45 PM
I don't think theirs anything they ca do to keep him in Minny.

Winning would be a good place to start

BenFrank
02-02-2014, 04:42 PM
No way....not after you guys pay Parsons...... He'll get a contract around what Gallinari got...so u looking at 12 million per year.

If Love sent out signals, that he wants to play for Houston.. between him and Parsons, I think Morey would go after Love.. b/c he considers him more of a STAR player

TimeForAHoliday
02-02-2014, 04:45 PM
Aren't the wolves like 0-13 in close games? This dude is not a closer.

nycericanguy
02-02-2014, 04:51 PM
JR Smith might not shoot as well as Martin but the difference is JR Smith did more for the Knicks than spot up for shots. He was rebounding and even playing at a decent level defensively. Martin doesn't do that. He was better at creating shots for himself as well, not great but better, last year 42% of JRs shots were assisted on, this year 66% of Martins shots have been assisted on.

And you're forgetting that the Knicks are in the East, which has been the weaker conference for a very long time.

JR might fill up the stat sheet a bit better, but no one in their right mind would ever take him over Kmart, not even last year's JR. Kmart is a much better pplayer, assisted or not, he's shown he can score 20+ppg in this league and do it efficinety and he gets to the line a ton.

the whole east thing gets blown out of proportion. at the end of the year the differences in terms of SOS between the conferences is minimal, maybe 1-2 wins worth. And last year the East wasn't anywhere near as bad. two 54+ win teams, two 49 win teams, and the Bulls and hawks were also around the mid 40's i believe.

certainly doesn't make the difference between 54 wins and say .500.

besides Melo spent most of his career out West and won like 60% of his games no matter what he had around him. He had some good teams, but he also had some mediocre teams and took them into the playoffs easily.

AddiX
02-02-2014, 05:27 PM
Aren't the wolves like 0-13 in close games? This dude is not a closer.

ITs hard to close with no go to shots and bad defense, I been saying this for years about him.

The last few minutes in close games, love disappears, they out a body on him and force him away from the hoop, and he has nothing. Than on the defensive end they go right at him every time.

Just an incredibly productive player who cant do anything when it counts.

TimeForAHoliday
02-02-2014, 05:40 PM
ITs hard to close with no go to shots and bad defense, I been saying this for years about him.

The last few minutes in close games, love disappears, they out a body on him and force him away from the hoop, and he has nothing. Than on the defensive end they go right at him every time.

Just an incredibly productive player who cant do anything when it counts.
Yeah, I remember his epic choke job vs the Thunder earlier this season. Missed 3 straight free throws :laugh:

Jenceman
02-03-2014, 01:48 AM
People are hilarious. Somehow 43 and 19 is "empty stats".

Just how like KG put up empty stats all those years, or Kobe.

Avenged
02-03-2014, 01:51 AM
Seeing Lakers fans reactions about Love nowadays makes me wanna see Love in different uniform than the Lakers. It be super funny when they will be all saying Love is not a great player and not a player who can take pressure in LA. Like they were all hailing Dwight when he was traded to LA and then all of a sudden Dwight became a trash when he left.

Uhm i hope he doesn't come here. Monster game but a loss? Seems like this always happens. I'll pass as a first option for sure. But he'd be a nice second option.

Chronz
02-03-2014, 02:43 AM
Hilarious, just the other day I was gonna ask if anyone thought he would have another 40-20 type night.

Hawkeye15
02-03-2014, 04:01 AM
yet another loss. Love is leaving, no way around it. He is way too good to waste anymore time with an inept franchise that has no idea what it's doing.

Jenceman
02-03-2014, 02:37 PM
Uhm i hope he doesn't come here. Monster game but a loss? Seems like this always happens. I'll pass as a first option for sure. But he'd be a nice second option.

It's a team game. How hard is this?

I'd take him on the Lakers no questions asked.

Tony_Starks
02-04-2014, 12:22 PM
It's a team game. How hard is this?

I'd take him on the Lakers no questions asked.

I wouldn't. If he went to one of those "one good player away" teams he'd be a perfect piece. But seeing how he's probably gonna want superstar money I wouldn't want him as the leader of my team.....

MonroeFAN
02-04-2014, 02:27 PM
From a sports perspective (NOT A MONEY PERSPECTIVE), I feel bad for Love. This is the third time, I've heard him get near 40-20, and the team still lost the damn game. He's doing his part. It's a shame that they can't get consistent. They NEED to go out and chase a legitimate PG. Rubio is a good passer, but how much longer can you possibly wait, when a player of his Caliber can opt out soon.

Even if it means trading away first rounders and maybe prospects, they should really look to getting a starting PG. (E.g. Lin, Lowry). As a Raptor fan, I love what Lowry is doing and I hope we can keep him, but if he doesn't want to resign... Just imagine this Lowry with Love and Pekovic down low

Is there a chance that he's simply not that good of a basketball player and that his numbers are nonsense? Does anyone remember Anthony Randolph's stint as a starting PF when love went down a few seasons ago? I do. The team was no better or worse off, and Randolph played out of his mind.

flea
02-04-2014, 02:32 PM
Whoever has stats for it please tell us what opponents are shooting in the paint against the T Wolves. I have a feeling it's some ungodly number like 65%.

Bruno
02-04-2014, 03:26 PM
I love Kevin Love. I'm a really big fan of his game and demeanor. I owned him in a fantasy keeper league and loved building around him but I recently traded a package built around him for Durant (right before Durant went on his streak of destruction).

Love is a perfect fantasy player but his defensive % at the rim against opponents has to improve, even if it means sacrificing 2-3 boards a night for the sake of establishing better defensive position. ESPECIALLY when Pek is the other big offering support.

I think Love will be a great fit in LA next to Embiid. brilliant fit actually.

Bruno
02-04-2014, 03:32 PM
Whoever has stats for it please tell us what opponents are shooting in the paint against the T Wolves. I have a feeling it's some ungodly number like 65%.

58.8% (before tonights game against the Lakers).

Bruno
02-04-2014, 03:33 PM
we need to figure out how important opponent FG% at the rim is when judging our defenders. its an interesting stat and I kind of like it, but I see inconsistency in the numbers relative to how we value players. Larry Sanders is leading all bigs, holding defenders under 40% at the rim. yet I hear and read nothing but he's a scrub and the bucks want to trade him every day. which is it?

smith&wesson
02-04-2014, 03:42 PM
This guy is quietly having a BEAST of a season. Tonight had 43 and 19 on 54% Fg and 17 of 18 from the line (too bad they lost somehow) On the year he is averaging 25-13-4 with a very low T.O rate of 2.3 for someone who has the ball and plays the minutes he does. Very under appreciated season IMO. Minny better do something to keep this guy happy

inflated stats on a bad team. I like the twolves and it really sucks that they wasted a pick and a lot of time on rubio because he was suppose to be the other piece of the puzzle, and well he is just another piece of the problem.

smith&wesson
02-04-2014, 03:54 PM
People are hilarious. Somehow 43 and 19 is "empty stats".

Just how like KG put up empty stats all those years, or Kobe.

kg put the team on his back and carried them to the playoffs. also went to the wcf's

love is a great talent no question about it. but lets be real, unless the twolves are winning the stats are just inflated numbers. they look great, but mean little.

smith&wesson
02-04-2014, 03:56 PM
I love Kevin Love. I'm a really big fan of his game and demeanor. I owned him in a fantasy keeper league and loved building around him but I recently traded a package built around him for Durant (right before Durant went on his streak of destruction).
Love is a perfect fantasy player but his defensive % at the rim against opponents has to improve, even if it means sacrificing 2-3 boards a night for the sake of establishing better defensive position. ESPECIALLY when Pek is the other big offering support.


I think Love will be a great fit in LA next to Embiid. brilliant fit actually.

why does this even matter ?

smith&wesson
02-04-2014, 04:00 PM
we need to figure out how important opponent FG% at the rim is when judging our defenders. its an interesting stat and I kind of like it, but I see inconsistency in the numbers relative to how we value players. Larry Sanders is leading all bigs, holding defenders under 40% at the rim. yet I hear and read nothing but he's a scrub and the bucks want to trade him every day. which is it?

love is a great player, has a solid defender beside him too in pek. the problem imo is rubio. he just hasnt lived up to they hype.

who says sanders is a scrub ? thats crazy talk. he was injured most of this season :shrug:

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 04:00 PM
58.8% (before tonights game against the Lakers).

it feels like around 80%...

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 04:01 PM
Hilarious, just the other day I was gonna ask if anyone thought he would have another 40-20 type night.

Wolves are now 3-14 in games where he attempts over 20 shots. Basically, almost anytime he goes beast, they lose. Something seriously not right about that....

smith&wesson
02-04-2014, 04:04 PM
Wolves are now 3-14 in games where he attempts over 20 shots. Basically, almost anytime he goes beast, they lose. Something seriously not right about that....

reminds me of the calderon and bosh era, where calderon would bring the ball up the court and just pass it to bosh... bosh's numbers looked great and the rest of the team suffered..

I liked the additions of kmart and brewer. I think the twolves should try to trade rubio or just move him for expirings and then go and sign another pg. ... someone like lowry would fit really nicely on the twolves imo...

Chronz
02-04-2014, 04:08 PM
Wolves are now 3-14 in games where he attempts over 20 shots. Basically, almost anytime he goes beast, they lose. Something seriously not right about that....

They are also like 15-3 when he records at least 1 block or something. Not sure what to make of that.

Bruno
02-04-2014, 04:23 PM
it feels like around 80%...
well PEK sitting there right next to him allowing 56.5% doesn't help, probably feels like its compounded. Love needs to be next to a defensive anchor (not even an elite top three anchor, just someone who hangs their hat on defending the post). the second that happens that team propels to HCA in the first round and beyond. I like PEK, but his weakness is the same weakness as the teams superstar and in my book that makes it a bad fit. Love and Pek need to be split up.

Bruno
02-04-2014, 04:26 PM
love is a great talent no question about it. but lets be real, unless the twolves are winning the stats are just inflated numbers. they look great, but mean little.
I disagree.


why does this even matter ?
it doesn't.


love is a great player, has a solid defender beside him too in pek. the problem imo is rubio. he just hasnt lived up to they hype.
PEK isn't a solid defender. he's right next to Love at the bottom on the list for opponent FG% allowed at the rim. rubios shooting is a problem.


who says sanders is a scrub ? thats crazy talk. he was injured most of this season :shrug:
go visit the bucks forum.

smith&wesson
02-04-2014, 04:34 PM
I disagree. .

elaborate ?




go visit the bucks forum.

really the bucks fans think sanders sucks ? I didnt know that. seems odd to me.

UPRock
02-04-2014, 04:37 PM
Sanders for Pekovic straight up!

flea
02-04-2014, 04:38 PM
As a Pels fan, I hope the Bucks GM is dumb enough to hate Larry Sanders too so we can put his defense next to Davis.

smith&wesson
02-04-2014, 04:39 PM
well PEK sitting there right next to him allowing 56.5% doesn't help, probably feels like its compounded. Love needs to be next to a defensive anchor (not even an elite top three anchor, just someone who hangs their hat on defending the post). the second that happens that team propels to HCA in the first round and beyond. I like PEK, but his weakness is the same weakness as the teams superstar and in my book that makes it a bad fit. Love and Pek need to be split up.

I dont understand why the re signed pek then.

I wonder if a pek for asik swap would be intriguing to the wolves.

PurpleLynch
02-04-2014, 06:40 PM
Love just needs a good defensive center to patrol the paint. His defense is an issue,but with a good C on the defensive end they could work out a solution to stop players getting to the paint.

Tony_Starks
02-04-2014, 06:43 PM
Whoever has stats for it please tell us what opponents are shooting in the paint against the T Wolves. I have a feeling it's some ungodly number like 65%.

Don't know what the exact number is but I read somewhere they're either the worst or close to the worst team in the league at defending the paint...

Chronz
02-04-2014, 06:58 PM
kg put the team on his back and carried them to the playoffs. also went to the wcf's
He also missed the playoffs whilst in the middle of his prime. Wats ur point?

Chronz
02-04-2014, 07:02 PM
I wonder if a pek for asik swap would be intriguing to the wolves.
Their weakness is known league wide, its the talent disparity that gets in the way. The "Bash Bros" are immensely productive and fit perfectly together offensively, its just hard to find a team that could give them enough talent for the trade. They are at crossroads, this team is talented enough to make the playoffs, but they have serious issues in the clutch that have yet to be addressed (if at all possible).

Sadly, Kahn ****ed them over more than even the harshest T-Wolves fans are willing to admit. Hawkeye is the most objective T'Wolves fan I know and even he couldn't see how badly Kahn was rebuilding them.

Chronz
02-04-2014, 07:05 PM
Love just needs a good defensive center to patrol the paint. His defense is an issue,but with a good C on the defensive end they could work out a solution to stop players getting to the paint.
Everyone knows that, the problem comes in the move after that. They simply dont have enough time before Love ditches them (thanks to Kahn not maxing out his teams best player).

They have absolutely no wiggle room, if they trade for an anchor today, their offense would suffer. Back to square 1, and while its easier to find offensive production from wings, they would have to wait awhile to find that, by then, its likely Love is disinterested.

Still, I would go all in on building around 1 final year for Love. Trade Pek for Sander, hope to bring in a wing the next year and go with it.

The other view is trading Love for a supreme package and building around the Pek-Rubio core that is signed long term.

smith&wesson
02-04-2014, 07:28 PM
He also missed the playoffs whilst in the middle of his prime. Wats ur point?

Person I quoted stated "People are hilarious. Somehow 43 and 19 is "empty stats".

Just how like KG put up empty stats all those years, or Kobe"

we all know Love is a great talent and a great player but he still has alot to prove beyond his stat lines. unlike the above mentioned.

smith&wesson
02-04-2014, 07:31 PM
Everyone knows that, the problem comes in the move after that. They simply dont have enough time before Love ditches them (thanks to Kahn not maxing out his teams best player).

They have absolutely no wiggle room, if they trade for an anchor today, their offense would suffer. Back to square 1, and while its easier to find offensive production from wings, they would have to wait awhile to find that, by then, its likely Love is disinterested.

Still, I would go all in on building around 1 final year for Love. Trade Pek for Sander, hope to bring in a wing the next year and go with it.

The other view is trading Love for a supreme package and building around the Pek-Rubio core that is signed long term.

or they can make a multi player trade and improve both the pg and c positions.

they need a pg who can facilitate as well as score, and a center who can defend better I guess. I dont watch enough twolves games but I thought pek was a good post defender. guess not.

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 08:06 PM
They are also like 15-3 when he records at least 1 block or something. Not sure what to make of that.

the Wolves are one big statistical anomaly this year dude...

They may very well finish with over 10 games UNDER their expected win total. Not sure if I have seen that before. The Sixers a few years back were as close as I can think of.

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 08:07 PM
well PEK sitting there right next to him allowing 56.5% doesn't help, probably feels like its compounded. Love needs to be next to a defensive anchor (not even an elite top three anchor, just someone who hangs their hat on defending the post). the second that happens that team propels to HCA in the first round and beyond. I like PEK, but his weakness is the same weakness as the teams superstar and in my book that makes it a bad fit. Love and Pek need to be split up.

yep, agreed 1000000%.

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 08:09 PM
I dont understand why the re signed pek then.

I wonder if a pek for asik swap would be intriguing to the wolves.

because when you are all in on a 2 year window to show Love you are trying to win, you don't let a productive center in his prime walk....

Why would Houston take on Pekovic for the next 4+ years at $12 million per..

AddiX
02-04-2014, 08:11 PM
or they can make a multi player trade and improve both the pg and c positions.

they need a pg who can facilitate as well as score, and a center who can defend better I guess. I dont watch enough twolves games but I thought pek was a good post defender. guess not.

Pek is good one on one, but offers nothing with help defense.

But in his defense, the not player on that entire team that really does is brewer, and sometimes Rubio.

It sure would help if love could do something on defense. He's completely useless. I find it hilarious all his supporters seem to completely overlook that.

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 08:11 PM
Their weakness is known league wide, its the talent disparity that gets in the way. The "Bash Bros" are immensely productive and fit perfectly together offensively, its just hard to find a team that could give them enough talent for the trade. They are at crossroads, this team is talented enough to make the playoffs, but they have serious issues in the clutch that have yet to be addressed (if at all possible).

Sadly, Kahn ****ed them over more than even the harshest T-Wolves fans are willing to admit. Hawkeye is the most objective T'Wolves fan I know and even he couldn't see how badly Kahn was rebuilding them.

oh, I had a little self evaluation period last summer, and realized how awful he really was. He not only effed up his tenure, he set us up for failure for at least 3-4 seasons following his departure.

Chronz
02-04-2014, 08:13 PM
Person I quoted stated "People are hilarious. Somehow 43 and 19 is "empty stats".

Just how like KG put up empty stats all those years, or Kobe"

we all know Love is a great talent and a great player but he still has alot to prove beyond his stat lines. unlike the above mentioned.

If the above mentioned were unable to secure a playoff spot then what is there really left to prove? Havent we seen enough throughout history to KNOW that players dont make the playoffs, TEAMS do.

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 08:14 PM
Everyone knows that, the problem comes in the move after that. They simply dont have enough time before Love ditches them (thanks to Kahn not maxing out his teams best player).

They have absolutely no wiggle room, if they trade for an anchor today, their offense would suffer. Back to square 1, and while its easier to find offensive production from wings, they would have to wait awhile to find that, by then, its likely Love is disinterested.

Still, I would go all in on building around 1 final year for Love. Trade Pek for Sander, hope to bring in a wing the next year and go with it.

The other view is trading Love for a supreme package and building around the Pek-Rubio core that is signed long term.

If and when we miss the playoffs, if I am the GM, I am trading Love AND Rubio for everything I can get. Adelman is likely done after this year, time to move in another direction.

Thanks David Kahn...the two best players from your regime were gifted to you by your predecessor, who didn't exactly light the world on fire with his decisions. Yet, you screwed them both up.

Chronz
02-04-2014, 08:15 PM
oh, I had a little self evaluation period last summer, and realized how awful he really was. He not only effed up his tenure, he set us up for failure for at least 3-4 seasons following his departure.
Was he no longer running **** when you came to this conclusion?

Chronz
02-04-2014, 08:18 PM
Pek is good one on one, but offers nothing with help defense.

But in his defense, the not player on that entire team that really does is brewer, and sometimes Rubio.

It sure would help if love could do something on defense. He's completely useless. I find it hilarious all his supporters seem to completely overlook that.

Love is decent 1 on 1 too. About as useless as Pek. Not seeing what your point is here, I dont see anyone ignoring Love's abysmal defense, but why put the blame on the player that does the most for his team/teammates?

Chronz
02-04-2014, 08:19 PM
or they can make a multi player trade and improve both the pg and c positions.

they need a pg who can facilitate as well as score, and a center who can defend better I guess. I dont watch enough twolves games but I thought pek was a good post defender. guess not.
Define post defender. And I think you overrate how hard it is to do a multi-player trade where all parties are happy.

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 08:19 PM
Was he no longer running **** when you came to this conclusion?

I guess it was before he was fired actually. I just looked at his drafts, and the way he went through the Love negotiations, and it was just too much. I mean, he bet the future of the team on his little spanish pet project over the sure thing. And ****ed up literally every pick he made. Literally every one of his picks, there was better value on the board. And the draft that was a Rambis payoff was just the straw that broke the camels back. You are so inept, you need to waste multiple first rounders to pay for your mistake, nevermind the draft being about making the team better.

Unacceptable. Period.

AddiX
02-04-2014, 08:22 PM
If minny was really all in right now, they will be major players at trade deadline.

IMO they have no choice but to go all out at trade deadline. What do they have to lose, that quite frankly they aren't going to lose anyway?

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 08:28 PM
If minny was really all in right now, they will be major players at trade deadline.

IMO they have no choice but to go all out at trade deadline. What do they have to lose, that quite frankly they aren't going to lose anyway?

as a fan of the Wolves, the last thing I want is them taking on additional salary. The product/model I see is not built for long term success.

Tough question. Do you go all in, and hope you can be a playoff team and maybe upset someone or that Rubio grows and you have a team with HCA next year? Or do you sell off your biggest assets now, while the team is showing it can't compete with the top 10 teams in the league?

AddiX
02-04-2014, 08:28 PM
Love is decent 1 on 1 too. About as useless as Pek. Not seeing what your point is here, I dont see anyone ignoring Love's abysmal defense, but why put the blame on the player that does the most for his team/teammates?

Well I'm def not going to get into that conversation again..

But as far as why do I bring up loves defense or lack there of, is the last 3-4 close games I've seen the wolves lose, I wasn't surprised that love didn't get rebinds in the closing minutes, I wasn't surprised love had no go to moves in the closing minutes, BUT what stood out, was how quickly in transition defenses attacked loves side of the defense, and got right to the rim with layups.

I think it was vs the suns maybe a month ago? love had some brick of a turn around mid range shot, followed by a Rubio turnover, followed by some other nonsense, I believe it was some kind of pek drive to the hoop, in the closing minutes a game minny lead all the way in, they lost to 3 straight layups. At least two were on love.

AddiX
02-04-2014, 08:33 PM
as a fan of the Wolves, the last thing I want is them taking on additional salary. The product/model I see is not built for long term success.

Tough question. Do you go all in, and hope you can be a playoff team and maybe upset someone or that Rubio grows and you have a team with HCA next year? Or do you sell off your biggest assets now, while the team is showing it can't compete with the top 10 teams in the league?

IMO you have two choices, dump it all now, or go all in, but ya can't sit idle.

And I really truly do not know how long minny survives as a franchise if they dump Love. Would fans ever accept that after all these years of just being bad? I really dunno, but if there's a breaking point, I'd assume that's pushing it.

So IMO, go all in, your screwed either way IMO, nothing to lose, cap space? Who cares, your going to be bad in those years anyway and since when in the heck has any top tier free agents EVER chose to go to minny?

Chronz
02-04-2014, 08:39 PM
Well I'm def not going to get into that conversation again..
Fine by me but I thought that was the point of the post.


But as far as why do I bring up loves defense or lack there of
Again, nobody denies this. Not seeing the point of mentioning Pek being good 1 on 1 when Love is too. Its the bad help defense they BOTH dont provide that hurts them. Offensively, the T'Wolves are fine, its the D thats the problem late in games. Get Love a superior anchor ala Chandler for Dirk, and you will see more clutch results. The problem is, without offensive support, they might not get into those close games to begin with. Love is already maxing out his offensive output on this team IMO, hard to ask much more of him on that end.

Tony_Starks
02-04-2014, 08:56 PM
as a fan of the Wolves, the last thing I want is them taking on additional salary. The product/model I see is not built for long term success.

Tough question. Do you go all in, and hope you can be a playoff team and maybe upset someone or that Rubio grows and you have a team with HCA next year? Or do you sell off your biggest assets now, while the team is showing it can't compete with the top 10 teams in the league?

I sell high with Love now. Blow this ish up and call it a season. I seriously doubt they make the playoffs and if by some miracle they did it would probably just buy you a sweep at the hands of OKC and a lower draft pick.

If you wait to deal him next season it could be like a Melo in Denver part 2. Then you have to bank on the idea that a team is willing to gut their assets for a season rental....

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 09:03 PM
I sell high with Love now. Blow this ish up and call it a season. I seriously doubt they make the playoffs and if by some miracle they did it would probably just buy you a sweep at the hands of OKC and a lower draft pick.

If you wait to deal him next season it could be like a Melo in Denver part 2. Then you have to bank on the idea that a team is willing to gut their assets for a season rental....

yeah, they won't though. I have supreme confidence I would be a better GM than anyone in Wolves history. So, I expect the worst, and have a pretty strong feeling I am right on that.

They will keep Love through next year, eff up the surroundings, etc. He leaves. We have nothing. We extend Rubio to a stupid contract. Life goes on...........

And I try and see if I can get my brain erased

AddiX
02-04-2014, 09:16 PM
Fine by me but I thought that was the point of the post.


Again, nobody denies this. Not seeing the point of mentioning Pek being good 1 on 1 when Love is too. Its the bad help defense they BOTH dont provide that hurts them. Offensively, the T'Wolves are fine, its the D thats the problem late in games. Get Love a superior anchor ala Chandler for Dirk, and you will see more clutch results. The problem is, without offensive support, they might not get into those close games to begin with. Love is already maxing out his offensive output on this team IMO, hard to ask much more of him on that end.

The difference is pek is bad at help defense, while love is bad at all defense. To try to blame pek for loves faults is nuts.

And as good as minnys offense is, in clutch situations it goes completely stale. No go to plays and no players with go to moves will do that. You can blame that on whoever you want, but when your star can't hit shots on one end md is immediately attacked on the other end, I really don't see how that's peks fault or how a defensive center is going to change that much.

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 09:40 PM
The difference is pek is bad at help defense, while love is bad at all defense. To try to blame pek for loves faults is nuts.

And as good as minnys offense is, in clutch situations it goes completely stale. No go to plays and no players with go to moves will do that. You can blame that on whoever you want, but when your star can't hit shots on one end md is immediately attacked on the other end, I really don't see how that's peks fault or how a defensive center is going to change that much.

Imagine Tim Duncan in his prime with no Parker, Manu, or any of that business. That is Love. Defenses don't need to respect ANYONE on that team, and can load the floor with 2 non scorers at all times on the floor (used to be more, this season its just 2..)

Chronz
02-04-2014, 09:53 PM
The difference is pek is bad at help defense, while love is bad at all defense. To try to blame pek for loves faults is nuts.
They are both equally bad, its why they are a bad fit. What gives you the impression that its such a substantial difference?


And as good as minnys offense is, in clutch situations it goes completely stale. No go to plays and no players with go to moves will do that. You can blame that on whoever you want, but when your star can't hit shots on one end md is immediately attacked on the other end, I really don't see how that's peks fault or how a defensive center is going to change that much.
No, that would be their defense that that goes to ****, their O is still decent but if anyone sucks offensively its Rubio, I forget the stats but hes pretty much scoreless in the clutch.

Im still not seeing where you're going with this.

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 10:01 PM
Rubio has 6 TOTAL points in the 4th quarters of the 13 "close" games" we have. How is that possible? Adelman has even resorted to sitting him and letting the midget finish.

ChiSox219
02-04-2014, 10:31 PM
Imagine Tim Duncan in his prime with no Parker, Manu, or any of that business. That is Love. Defenses don't need to respect ANYONE on that team, and can load the floor with 2 non scorers at all times on the floor (used to be more, this season its just 2..)

At some though Manu and TP were late draft picks, Duncan's leadership played a big part in those guys developing.

AddiX
02-04-2014, 10:43 PM
Imagine Tim Duncan in his prime with no Parker, Manu, or any of that business. That is Love. Defenses don't need to respect ANYONE on that team, and can load the floor with 2 non scorers at all times on the floor (used to be more, this season its just 2..)

Hah your really pushing it with that one.

AddiX
02-04-2014, 10:51 PM
They are both equally bad, its why they are a bad fit. What gives you the impression that its such a substantial difference?


No, that would be their defense that that goes to ****, their O is still decent but if anyone sucks offensively its Rubio, I forget the stats but hes pretty much scoreless in the clutch.

Im still not seeing where you're going with this.

Oh rubio sucks too, im just tired of hearing about how great love is, you watch those games consistently and youll see, love offers nothng inthe closing minutes.

0 winning seasons, 0 playoffs , and had made no one on his team better EVER. Yet people compare him to players who have, and say he's better than guys who constsntly do those things.

NBA_Starter
02-04-2014, 11:35 PM
K Love is that dude.

Avenged
02-04-2014, 11:49 PM
Imagine Tim Duncan in his prime with no Parker, Manu, or any of that business. That is Love. Defenses don't need to respect ANYONE on that team, and can load the floor with 2 non scorers at all times on the floor (used to be more, this season its just 2..)

Hah your really pushing it with that one.

Yah.

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 11:51 PM
At some though Manu and TP were late draft picks, Duncan's leadership played a big part in those guys developing.

seriously? No, the Spurs ability to turn Helen Keller into a productive corner shooter happened.

Jesus you hate Love

Hawkeye15
02-04-2014, 11:52 PM
Hah your really pushing it with that one.

pushing what? That when you surround your franchise player who isn't an isolation capable player with a bunch of guys who are, good things tend to happen???

ChiSox219
02-05-2014, 02:17 AM
seriously? No, the Spurs ability to turn Helen Keller into a productive corner shooter happened.

Jesus you hate Love

I'm a big time Kevin Love fan but it seems to me he is not the quality leader or player Duncan is/was. Put just about any mix around Duncan in his prime and you are going to the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 03:08 AM
I'm a big time Kevin Love fan but it seems to me he is not the quality leader or player Duncan is/was. Put just about any mix around Duncan in his prime and you are going to the playoffs.

You are a Love fan? Could have fooled me brother.

You simply missed my point. When your best player is a stationary PF who dominated but can't be a player you dump it to with 6 seconds to go, isolation time, you better have players around him that do one of the following:

- can isolate and score
- can spread the floor so your guy doesn't get buried on


So, which one has Love had (rhetorical question)? Cause Duncan has had both since his first practice in the NBA....

Tell me again how Ricky Rubio is our future. Interested to hear you insight on his impact this year...

You underrate Love more than any other stat dude I know. Hate may have been strong, but cmon now..

Kushed
02-05-2014, 03:14 AM
Kevin Love isn't the problem. People just seem to forget the Wolves have one of the worst benches in the NBA. You waste two first round draft picks on guys who don't even play, and have a bunch of below average guys to round out the team. You look around the west, teams are 8-10 guys deep and I mean they can all play. The Wolves have one of the best starting 5s in the league but the bench is so atrocious that that's why we are at .500

But Kevin Love is the star so he'll be the one to get the blame even though he really has nothing to do with it. Take Love off this team and we are the worst team in the NBA by a mile.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 03:22 AM
Kevin Love isn't the problem. People just seem to forget the Wolves have one of the worst benches in the NBA. You waste two first round draft picks on guys who don't even play, and have a bunch of below average guys to round out the team. You look around the west, teams are 8-10 guys deep and I mean they can all play. The Wolves have one of the best starting 5s in the league but the bench is so atrocious that that's why we are at .500

But Kevin Love is the star so he'll be the one to get the blame even though he really has nothing to do with it. Take Love off this team and we are the worst team in the NBA by a mile.

He will get the blame, and that is fine. But the Wolves PG rotation is pure ****, they have no bench, and Love is paired with and ideal offensive center, but literally the opposite defensively.

On top of that, I think 109 year old Adelman has thrown in the towel.

Chronz
02-05-2014, 03:41 AM
Just looked up Love's stats since Pek went down, are we sure he cant handle a bigger load if Pek is traded? Dude has stepped it up since

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 03:46 AM
Just looked up Love's stats since Pek went down, are we sure he cant handle a bigger load if Pek is traded? Dude has stepped it up since

we are just so incapable with Rubio and Brewer to replace those points at all, even with the upgrade on defense. At least imo.

FlashBolt
02-05-2014, 03:50 AM
Westbrook and Love, please.

AddiX
02-05-2014, 11:48 AM
pushing what? That when you surround your franchise player who isn't an isolation capable player with a bunch of guys who are, good things tend to happen???

Your pushing it by the fact you just compared love to an all time great player, who Has had dynasties built around him. I mean come on man, that's ridiculous. And did you really just say tim Duncan isn't a iso capable player?



Beginning of the season, "were going to the playoffs, no more excuses, it's a new team, were ready!"

After a few games apparently the Kevin Love committee meets and it's all about, "ok guys we suck again, let's get together a list of excuses why it's not loves fault."

Random psd member: "we can talk about his PER and blame his teammates...... Again..."

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 02:00 PM
Your pushing it by the fact you just compared love to an all time great player, who Has had dynasties built around him. I mean come on man, that's ridiculous. And did you really just say tim Duncan isn't a iso capable player?



Beginning of the season, "were going to the playoffs, no more excuses, it's a new team, were ready!"

After a few games apparently the Kevin Love committee meets and it's all about, "ok guys we suck again, let's get together a list of excuses why it's not loves fault."

Random psd member: "we can talk about his PER and blame his teammates...... Again..."

comparing the style. If Duncan never had floor spacers and guys who can put it on the deck and score around him, is he sniffing that success?

flea
02-05-2014, 02:30 PM
comparing the style. If Duncan never had floor spacers and guys who can put it on the deck and score around him, is he sniffing that success?

Hard to say but Duncan has one of the best offensive post games the league has seen since Hakeem. I'd put his offensive skillset up there with Love's, even if Love can hit the 3.

nycericanguy
02-05-2014, 02:36 PM
Love is such a unique situation. I can't ever remember seeing a guy put up such insane numbers but at the same time not even making a playoff run. I'm not sure there is anyone to compare him to really.

MIN's winning % with Love

.293
.183
.207
.394
.378

and now this year finally at .500, but this was a team that on paper we'd all thought would win 50 games.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 02:36 PM
Hard to say but Duncan has one of the best offensive post games the league has seen since Hakeem. I'd put his offensive skillset up there with Love's, even if Love can hit the 3.

I think Love will be a better offensive player than Duncan at the end of the day, but will never touch him as a player due to the other end.

Still missing my point. Take away all of Duncan's toys, and you get a player who is not a pure isolation player who can score against different looks. I can't even imagine if Love had the floor spacers LMA has, or if he had 2 players like TP/Manu who could put the ball on the deck and score at the rim all night long.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2014, 02:38 PM
Love is such a unique situation. I can't ever remember seeing a guy put up such insane numbers but at the same time not even making a playoff run. I'm not sure there is anyone to compare him to really.

MIN's winning % with Love

.293
.183
.207
.394
.378

and now this year finally at .500, but this was a team that on paper we'd all thought would win 50 games.

shows how inept our franchise has been

AddiX
02-05-2014, 02:45 PM
comparing the style. If Duncan never had floor spacers and guys who can put it on the deck and score around him, is he sniffing that success?

I enjoy debating with you, but I won't even begin to entertain debating any kind of argument comparing Duncan and love.

Duncan in his prime has twolves in the playoffs right now, I'm not even remotely doubtful about that.

kdspurman
02-05-2014, 02:55 PM
I enjoy debating with you, but I won't even begin to entertain debating any kind of argument comparing Duncan and love.

Duncan in his prime has twolves in the playoffs right now, I'm not even remotely doubtful about that.

I think so too, just because of his leadership and the fact that he was a stud defensively the moment he came into the league. He would create a lot of open looks by doing work in the post not only from 3, but slashers

Sly Guy
02-05-2014, 03:07 PM
I'm sure if the t-wolves were dissatisfied with kevin love, all they'd have to do is pick up the phone when other teams call about him. The notion that the t-wolves are under performing because of him is pretty off the wall in my opinion. He doesn't at all strike me as a volume shooting, inefficient player. He's the kind of guy you want on your team, not run out of town.

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 03:12 PM
People are hilarious. Somehow 43 and 19 is "empty stats".

Just how like KG put up empty stats all those years, or Kobe.




love is a great talent no question about it. but lets be real, unless the twolves are winning the stats are just inflated numbers. they look great, but mean little.


He also missed the playoffs whilst in the middle of his prime. Wats ur point?

Person I quoted stated "People are hilarious. Somehow 43 and 19 is "empty stats".

Just how like KG put up empty stats all those years, or Kobe"

we all know Love is a great talent and a great player but he still has alot to prove beyond his stat lines. unlike the above mentioned.


If the above mentioned were unable to secure a playoff spot then what is there really left to prove? Havent we seen enough throughout history to KNOW that players dont make the playoffs, TEAMS do.

lost me dude, no idea what your talking about now.

smith&wesson
02-05-2014, 03:18 PM
I'm sure if the t-wolves were dissatisfied with kevin love, all they'd have to do is pick up the phone when other teams call about him. The notion that the t-wolves are under performing because of him is pretty off the wall in my opinion. He doesn't at all strike me as a volume shooting, inefficient player. He's the kind of guy you want on your team, not run out of town.

general consensus is that pek and rubio are the problem..

FYL_McVeezy
02-06-2014, 12:18 PM
Love is having a monster season and will likely leave for Greener pastures like a lot of small market stars do....

NYK and LA have to be on the short list with Houston not to far behind....

VikesTwinsWolve
02-06-2014, 03:19 PM
^^^^^^^^Take the knicks off our list and I could see that! You know nothing about the game if you think Love will be a knick or rocket. Another great troll thread!

Heediot
02-08-2014, 06:00 AM
Great fantasy numbers but how much does his production impact the game? Honestly even if you put him next to a defensive anchor I don't think his team would be much better.

Goose17
02-08-2014, 03:22 PM
Great fantasy numbers but how much does his production impact the game? Honestly even if you put him next to a defensive anchor I don't think his team would be much better.

But that shouldn't take anything away from him, it's a reflection of the supporting cast not a reflection of him.

If a guy is putting up 45 points and 19 rebounds against a top western conference team (Clippers) and the team still isn't winning, how is that his fault? What more can he do? Should he just go ahead and score ALL of their points?



I genuinely believe Minny should trade him now while his value is sky rocketing like it is. They would get a good haul in return.

AddiX
02-08-2014, 07:45 PM
I use to think love was bad at defense.

After watching last nights game, the guy is flat out lazy on d! How did this guy get the biggest pass from fans in the NBA for being lazy on defense? This guy is slow as all heck on transition D, he ALWAYS steps out late to make an effort to force a harder shot, his rotations are always late, and he NEVER makes a real attempt on help defense.

I have no clue how no one has called him out on this, and there no excuses for it, or any way around it, the guy clearly is flat out lazy on D.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 04:26 AM
But that shouldn't take anything away from him, it's a reflection of the supporting cast not a reflection of him.

If a guy is putting up 45 points and 19 rebounds against a top western conference team (Clippers) and the team still isn't winning, how is that his fault? What more can he do? Should he just go ahead and score ALL of their points?



I genuinely believe Minny should trade him now while his value is sky rocketing like it is. They would get a good haul in return.

I am going to have doubts until he proves otherwise, his cast is not that pitiful. What makes his cast worse than say Davis without Holliday and Anderson, or Griffin without Paul and Reddick? How much does his style of play put pressure on defenses, He is like a SF playing PF that can rebound. Can't play a lick of D. Like most jump shooters his game can get streaky. Even your Warriors are too streaky because they are too reliant on their jump shots, feed it inside when other things aren't clicking. Lee and Bogut are more than serviceable. I don't know, Love would be a good complementary piece, not the main piece IMO. His team is healthier this year, where are the excuses now?

Slug3
02-09-2014, 05:08 AM
I enjoy watching Love play. But I feel like he is nothing more than a second fiddle. I mean he has been on the Wolves for these years and has put up these stats and has not gotten them to a respectable level at all. He plays good, but doesnt make the team any better. The stars seem to at least make the team a playoff contender and he never does that.

Goose17
02-09-2014, 09:41 AM
I am going to have doubts until he proves otherwise, his cast is not that pitiful. What makes his cast worse than say Davis without Holliday and Anderson

But New Orleans have a worse record, so that doesn't really help your argument.

Davis is in the same situation, he's a total stud but his surrounding cast is mostly weak. One player can only do so much, I don't care who that player is. You can't lay the failings of a team onto one guys shoulders.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 10:06 AM
But New Orleans have a worse record, so that doesn't really help your argument.

Davis is in the same situation, he's a total stud but his surrounding cast is mostly weak. One player can only do so much, I don't care who that player is. You can't lay the failings of a team onto one guys shoulders.

The issue for me is how much does he impact the game, how much does his style of play put pressure in defenses and or makes his teammates better?

I just think he is overrated by guys that are basing his play purely on advanced stats.

He is more overrated then AD, no one is crowning AD YET, that's why I put his name out there. Love has more help then people give him credit for.

Edit: I want to see how he does if the Woives traded Pek for a guy like Larry Sanders.

Goose17
02-09-2014, 10:27 AM
The issue for me is how much does he impact the game, how much does his style of play put pressure in defenses and or makes his teammates better?


How does he make his team mates better would make for an interesting discussion.

But how does he impact the game? If the Wolves didn't have Love, they would have the worst record in the entire league. Take it to the bank.

Look at the on/off numbers.

Loves net points per 100 is +18.1
Durants net points per 100 is +1.1

Loves net eFG% is +6.9%
Durants net eFG% is ++2.2%

Loves net total rebounding is +2.6%
Durants net total rebounding is -0.1%

The difference is Durant plays defense (and is just a much better player).


Loves supporting cast is pretty damn awful. Without him, that team would collapse. On the flip side a team like OKC would probably manage to stay above .500 without Durant.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 10:44 AM
How does he make his team mates better would make for an interesting discussion.

But how does he impact the game? If the Wolves didn't have Love, they would have the worst record in the entire league. Take it to the bank.

Look at the on/off numbers.

Loves net points per 100 is +18.1
Durants net points per 100 is +1.1

Loves net eFG% is +6.9%
Durants net eFG% is ++2.2%

Loves net total rebounding is +2.6%
Durants net total rebounding is -0.1%

The difference is Durant plays defense (and is just a much better player).


Loves supporting cast is pretty damn awful. Without him, that team would collapse. On the flip side a team like OKC would probably manage to stay above .500 without Durant.

Still not convinced based purely on advanced numbers. Even Harden made the playoffs last year with a comparable cast Love has this year. Milsap made the playoffs last year with the Jazz with a comparable or some may even argue worst roster. Misalp still has his team competing this year, even without Horford. Too many excuses, we all know Love has some sick offensive advanced stats, but why isn't it translating? Who on Phoenix has as good advanced stats as love? The Suns are playing good with or without their 2nd best player.

Goose17
02-09-2014, 11:31 AM
Still not convinced based purely on advanced numbers. Even Harden made the playoffs last year with a comparable cast Love has this year. Milsap made the playoffs last year with the Jazz with a comparable or some may even argue worst roster. Misalp still has his team competing this year, even without Horford. Too many excuses, we all know Love has some sick offensive advanced stats, but why isn't it translating? Who on Phoenix has as good advanced stats as love? The Suns are playing good with or without their 2nd best player.

1. Those weren't advanced stats. They were just on/off numbers.

2. Utah had a much better roster last year than Minnesota. Their front court depth was outstanding.

3. Atlanta are in a MUCH weaker conference. If Minny were in the east they would be 7th and only 2 or 3 games back from being 3rd.

4. Phoenix is a much better TEAM. A great team will trump a great individual almost every time.

It all comes down to the supporting cast.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 11:54 AM
1. Those weren't advanced stats. They were just on/off numbers.

2. Utah had a much better roster last year than Minnesota. Their front court depth was outstanding.

3. Atlanta are in a MUCH weaker conference. If Minny were in the east they would be 7th and only 2 or 3 games back from being 3rd.

4. Phoenix is a much better TEAM. A great team will trump a great individual almost every time.

It all comes down to the supporting cast.

Too many excuses. Adelman has over-achieved more than not his entire career. He has been known to make teams work. I just don't think Love's game = as much impact as people think. I have the same criticism of Bosh's game in Toronto as the number one guy.

So if the team is under par, Love gets no responsibility? Half of the people/experts/analysts projected this team to be in the playoffs.

Goose17
02-09-2014, 11:56 AM
Too many excuses..

Lol. Great rebuttle...

Heediot
02-09-2014, 12:01 PM
Lol. Great rebuttle...

You seem to cherry pick things you want to counter as well. The difference is I don't cop out and quote the things I cherry pick.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 12:08 PM
Utah's bench was better last year compared to Minny this year but Minny has the better starting unit.

Milsap should still get credit for helping his team east or west, everyone expected them to take a hit. More than half of the experts expected Minny in the playoffs.

The Suns... Maybe Hornacek is a very good coach, but before coming to Minny Adelman was considered a good coach.

nycericanguy
02-09-2014, 12:12 PM
PSD - Where Melo has to win a title with no help or else he's not a superstar, but Kevin Love is the best PF in the game even if he can't get to .500 ever!...lol.

Man I'd sure love MIN's supporting cast in NY. Give me Kmart over JR anyday, Pek over Tyson, and hands down Rubio over Felton please!... Give me Brewer over Shump, Barea over Felton even!...lol

Goose17
02-09-2014, 12:14 PM
Millsap should and does get credit. But the fact is Utah were better, not just depth. But their entire roster was better, like the Suns they didn't have a superstar but they had a couple of high caliber players and a bunch of solid role players.

Minnys roster isn't as good.

Atlanta are in the much weaker conference. Minny would be a playoff team in the East. End of discussion.

Phoenix aren't just well coached. They're a well rounded team. They're a little weak at the PF and maybe SF to a lesser extent. Other than that they have a great roster.

Goose17
02-09-2014, 12:14 PM
And what did I cherry pick?

Goose17
02-09-2014, 12:17 PM
Do you do the same for Kyrie, Marc Gasol, Melo and Davis? Blame them for the entire failings of their team?

flea
02-09-2014, 12:23 PM
Do you do the same for Kyrie, Marc Gasol, Melo and Davis? Blame them for the entire failings of their team?

Davis's team has been hurt most of the year - 2 guys not even in the rotation have started for a month now and their 2nd best scorer has hardly played. Gasol was hurt most of the year and went to the WCF last year with Tony Allen and Tayshaun Prince as starters. Melo and Kyrie and no defense chuckers that deserve to have their losses pile up, and they deserve the blame they get.

Love could have a better bench but so could the Grizzlies and you don't see them complaining (they'll probably make the playoffs). Just look at their game last night - they started a rookie at PG and their entire offense had off night. But because they have Marc Gasol they held a team under 80 points and won. I'm not sure a Pekovic/Love team could hold any playoff team below 90 points on any given night.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 12:23 PM
Millsap should and does get credit. But the fact is Utah were better, not just depth. But their entire roster was better, like the Suns they didn't have a superstar but they had a couple of high caliber players and a bunch of solid role players.

Minnys roster isn't as good.

Atlanta are in the much weaker conference. Minny would be a playoff team in the East. End of discussion.

Phoenix aren't just well coached. They're a well rounded team. They're a little weak at the PF and maybe SF to a lesser extent. Other than that they have a great roster.

It's not about conference, Milsap and his tema are beating expectations (with Horford out) and Love is not. Like I said why did so many people project them in the playoffs as a bottom seed?

Sometimes it's coaching and system. Gerald Green didn't fit Vogel system and other systems but he did well in NJ and even better in PHX.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 12:36 PM
Flea made some good points relating to Marc Gasol. I think his style of play is more conducive to Winning than Love even though his stats are not as gaudy. If your going to perimeter oriented and dominate and help your team, your efficiency should be MJ-LeBron-Durant levels. Love = too perimeter oriented with not the same level of efficiency, and doesn't play D to make things worse.

Edit: He's James Harden with better rebounding and less play making ability. Melo with less creativity, better rebounding and range.

Sandman
02-09-2014, 03:22 PM
Flea made some good points relating to Marc Gasol. I think his style of play is more conducive to Winning than Love even though his stats are not as gaudy. If your going to perimeter oriented and dominate and help your team, your efficiency should be MJ-LeBron-Durant levels. Love = too perimeter oriented with not the same level of efficiency, and doesn't play D to make things worse.

Edit: He's James Harden with better rebounding and less play making ability. Melo with less creativity, better rebounding and range.
I think a lot of these guys can be more efficient when they have better teammates as well. Other scorers can lighten double teams. Better PG play or passing in general leads to better looks.

With Love in particular, Pekovic is a really bad match at Center. Does that mean they are a center away from the title, no but they have a few things to fix and it is one of the biggest.

I think of players like Love and Melo more similar to players like Dirk than MJ or Lebron. Their season long numbers and stats don't paint the whole picture, because at the end of the day there is no 1 on 1 matchup in the league that they lose.

These guys are still worth every penny because of how unique they are, you just need to supplement them with the right team.

Then people say "Well anyone can win with the right team!" as if Jordan lead a bunch of d-leaguers to a Championship. He had multiple hall of famers. Kobe runs Shaq and Phil out of town, starts chirping about wanting out a few years later until they get Gasol. LeBron went to south beach.

Nobody remembers the "not a winner" crap with all of these guys before?

Goose17
02-09-2014, 03:22 PM
It's not about conference

Yes it is. If they were in the East, Minny would be a playoff team. Matching expectations, and only 2-3 games back from the third seed, smashing expectations.

The East is GARBAGE.

Millsap has been great, but with their current record, they would be 10th in the West. Only two places higher than where Minny are now.

Their record, 25-24. Might be above .500 but it isn't significantly better than Minnys record of 24-27. And Minny are playing in a much tougher conference.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 04:44 PM
Yes it is. If they were in the East, Minny would be a playoff team. Matching expectations, and only 2-3 games back from the third seed, smashing expectations.

The East is GARBAGE.

Millsap has been great, but with their current record, they would be 10th in the West. Only two places higher than where Minny are now.

Their record, 25-24. Might be above .500 but it isn't significantly better than Minnys record of 24-27. And Minny are playing in a much tougher conference.

The point that you keep missing is why doesn't Love's team meet expectations?? I am just giving example's of how other guys are meeting or beating RELATIVE expectations. The relative expectation in the Milsap example is he is keeping his team more competitive then the expected outcome of the Horford injury.

Damon Love
02-09-2014, 04:46 PM
Can someone tell me why Kevin Love hasn't made the playoffs yet? He seems to always have monster games though

Heediot
02-09-2014, 04:59 PM
I think a lot of these guys can be more efficient when they have better teammates as well. Other scorers can lighten double teams. Better PG play or passing in general leads to better looks.

With Love in particular, Pekovic is a really bad match at Center. Does that mean they are a center away from the title, no but they have a few things to fix and it is one of the biggest.

I think of players like Love and Melo more similar to players like Dirk than MJ or Lebron. Their season long numbers and stats don't paint the whole picture, because at the end of the day there is no 1 on 1 matchup in the league that they lose.

These guys are still worth every penny because of how unique they are, you just need to supplement them with the right team.

Then people say "Well anyone can win with the right team!" as if Jordan lead a bunch of d-leaguers to a Championship. He had multiple hall of famers. Kobe runs Shaq and Phil out of town, starts chirping about wanting out a few years later until they get Gasol. LeBron went to south beach.

Nobody remembers the "not a winner" crap with all of these guys before?

I put Love in the same category as Melo, you won't win a title with them as the main guy. I am not saying Love isn't good, I just personally do not feel his style of play impacts winning as much as others' believe.

Edit: Guys like Harden and Lin and their style have better shot at winning with the current rules. Plus the new rules are why the PG position is deeper than it is in NBA history.

Goose17
02-09-2014, 05:02 PM
The point that you keep missing is why doesn't Love's team meet expectations?

Because his supporting cast sucks.

And Atlanta are exceeding expectations because the Eastern conference hasn't been this weak in... god knows how long. I mean it's always been weak. But this year is spectacularly awful. They are in a weaker conference and it's easier to win in a weaker conference, simple. Plus people underrated Millsap, always have, even when he was drafted he was underrated.




Can someone tell me why Kevin Love hasn't made the playoffs yet? He seems to always have monster games though

Because players don't make it to the playoffs. Teams do.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 05:08 PM
Because his supporting cast sucks.

And Atlanta are exceeding expectations because the Eastern conference hasn't been this weak in... god knows how long. I mean it's always been weak. But this year is spectacularly awful. They are in a weaker conference and it's easier to win in a weaker conference, simple. Plus people underrated Millsap, always have, even when he was drafted he was underrated.





Because players don't make it to the playoffs. Teams do.

Even in the weak East, experts and analysts expected a drop with that in consideration. They also considered Love's help in their consideration of the Wolves being a playoff team. I just don't feel his game is catered to winning with the current rules as much as others feel.

Sandman
02-09-2014, 05:08 PM
I put Love in the same category as Melo, you won't win a title with them as the main guy. I am not saying Love isn't good, I just personally do not feel his style of play impacts winning as much as others' believe.

Edit: Guys like Harden and Lin and their style have better shot at winning with the current rules. Plus the new rules are why the PG position is deeper than it is in NBA history.

Nobody wins a title by themselves. Ranking whether they need to be 1 2 or 3 on a hypothetical team is putting the cart before the horse. Dirk had no clear #2 but had the best well rounded team. LeBron obv has Bosh and Wade, and good perimeter defenders/3 pt shooters. The Pistons were a well rounded team. The Spurs are alwyys well rounded

Heediot
02-09-2014, 05:12 PM
Nobody wins a title by themselves. Ranking whether they need to be 1 2 or 3 on a hypothetical team is putting the cart before the horse. Dirk had no clear #2 but had the best well rounded team. LeBron obv has Bosh and Wade, and good perimeter defenders/3 pt shooters. The Pistons were a well rounded team. The Spurs are alwyys well rounded

I'm not debating that someone can win a ship without help, but experts and people expected better from Minnesota with his current cast. You can't deny that some guys can do more with less help.

Goose17
02-09-2014, 05:15 PM
Even in the weak East, experts and analysts expected a drop with that in consideration.

But nobody predicted the East would be this weak. Link me to one article that predicted only four teams would be over .500, that Brooklyn and New York would struggle so much?



They also considered Love's help in their consideration of the Wolves being a playoff team. I just don't feel his game is catered to winning with the current rules as much as others feel.

Well you definitely have an argument there, but my point is you can't blame all of the teams failings on him. He's putting up stat lines comparable to the top players in the league and the team still isn't winning. How is that his fault?

The teams record is a reflection on the team. John Wall, Garnett, Pierce, Melo, Rondo, Irving, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins... all of these guys are on teams that are below .500 are you telling me that they're all individually responsible? That the rest of the team doesn't matter because the "star" can't get them above .500?

I'm not saying any of these guys are number one options or that their style is catered to winning, I'm saying you can't blame an individual who plays at a high caliber for the entire team failing.

flea
02-09-2014, 05:16 PM
Nobody wins a title by themselves. Ranking whether they need to be 1 2 or 3 on a hypothetical team is putting the cart before the horse. Dirk had no clear #2 but had the best well rounded team. LeBron obv has Bosh and Wade, and good perimeter defenders/3 pt shooters. The Pistons were a well rounded team. The Spurs are alwyys well rounded

You do if your name is Duncan or Olajuwan.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 05:16 PM
Another thing - the new NBA rules cater to less mobile big men defensively as well. Guys like Marc Gasol and an Aging KG and Duncan would not have the same defensive impact of they played 15 years ago.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 05:17 PM
But nobody predicted the East would be this weak. Link me to one article that predicted only four teams would be over .500, that Brooklyn and New York would struggle so much?




Well you definitely have an argument there, but my point is you can't blame all of the teams failings on him. He's putting up stat lines comparable to the top players in the league and the team still isn't winning. How is that his fault?

The teams record is a reflection on the team. John Wall, Garnett, Pierce, Melo, Rondo, Irving, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins... all of these guys are on teams that are below .500 are you telling me that they're all individually responsible? That the rest of the team doesn't matter because the "star" can't get them above .500?

I'm not saying any of these guys are number one options or that their style is catered to winning, I'm saying you can't blame an individual who plays at a high caliber for the entire team failing.

I am talking about after the Horford injury, we all knew the east sucked and most predicted Atlanta to struggle without him even in the weak east.

Goose17
02-09-2014, 05:20 PM
You do if your name is Duncan or Olajuwan.

You mean Tim Duncan? The guy on the same team as Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili? You mean Olajuwan with Clyde Drexler and the Jet?

Yeah, they did it all themselves.

AddiX
02-09-2014, 05:20 PM
K love is the over achieving slow, barely coordinated, unathletic, fat kid on your high school JV team. You cheer for him the way you would cheer for a disabled kid, But everyone knows when it matters, he's a liability who won't produce, and its best to put him on the bench if you want to win.

Every team knows that except minny, and that's why they continue to blow leads and always lose close games.

Heediot
02-09-2014, 05:31 PM
With individual players and if I were starting a team with the rules in consideration and how skill-set/playing style coincides with the rules there are a lot of guys I would want as my main building block over Love. I just don't feel he impacts the game as much as others do. Put Ryan Anderson on the wolves instead of Love and I don't think the drop off is that much, looking at things holistically.

flea
02-09-2014, 05:48 PM
You mean Tim Duncan? The guy on the same team as Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili? You mean Olajuwan with Clyde Drexler and the Jet?

Yeah, they did it all themselves.

Try 1994 Rockets without Clyde and 03 Spurs with rookie Parker and 2nd year Ginobili, shells of what they became. And Kenny Smith? You must be joking.

Jamiecballer
02-09-2014, 05:52 PM
I'm not debating that someone can win a ship without help, but experts and people expected better from Minnesota with his current cast. You can't deny that some guys can do more with less help.

hey man, he's about the most efficient of all the high-scoring bigs in the league. if his team isn't making the playoffs it's most definitely not his fault.

i mean, if you are putting up huge numbers and upon closer examination you are an inefficient player, i think it's fair for people to question your impact. but when you are destroying the stat sheet and scoring efficiently how can you be looked at as part of the problem?

AddiX
02-09-2014, 05:53 PM
Try 1994 Rockets without Clyde and 03 Spurs with rookie Parker and 2nd year Ginobili, shells of what they became. And Kenny Smith? You must be joking.

None of it matters to the KLove Apoligst crew, every year, every game, new excuses for he same player.

In the beginning of this season these were the same guys who all agreed that the wolves were for real this year, that klove had no more excuses, team was stocked and ready to go, a few weeks after stsrting the season 0-3 (edit 3-0), Excuses Galore.

LMAO he said Kenny Smith! He probably never saw him play. Just knows him from TNT commentating. Next he gonna tell us Klove needs a real star like Greg Anthony!

Heediot
02-09-2014, 06:31 PM
hey man, he's about the most efficient of all the high-scoring bigs in the league. if his team isn't making the playoffs it's most definitely not his fault.

i mean, if you are putting up huge numbers and upon closer examination you are an inefficient player, i think it's fair for people to question your impact. but when you are destroying the stat sheet and scoring efficiently how can you be looked at as part of the problem?

I am not solely blaming him, but he supposed to be the catalyst. Borderline top 10 guy. Like I said great fantasy and advanced offensive numbers but what about taking your team over the hump or producing in the clutch to win those close games. Perimeter oriented big as a number 1 guy is not the best recipe for team building. His style is catered more as a great complementary piece rather than a foundation piece IMO.

Jamiecballer
02-09-2014, 08:07 PM
I am not solely blaming him, but he supposed to be the catalyst. Borderline top 10 guy. Like I said great fantasy and advanced offensive numbers but what about taking your team over the hump or producing in the clutch to win those close games. Perimeter oriented big as a number 1 guy is not the best recipe for team building. His style is catered more as a great complementary piece rather than a foundation piece IMO.

you might be right that he needs someone else who can hit big shots, perhaps someone that has the elite athleticism that he lacks.

still, the situation is very similar to the one we had in Toronto IMO. Bosh put up monster numbers and was incredibly efficient and yet people said the lack of playoff success fell on his shoulders. Same with Love in Minnesota.

but to me there is a pretty straight forward way to tell who is a legit player with crappy support and who is a good player posing as a great one on a bad team.

in my mind

monster numbers/great efficiency - NOT the problem
monster numbers/low efficiency - MIGHT be part of the problem

Sandman
02-10-2014, 12:48 AM
I'm not debating that someone can win a ship without help, but experts and people expected better from Minnesota with his current cast. You can't deny that some guys can do more with less help.
I think there are a few different kinds of superstars and max players.

Some make their team better directly and some indirectly.

Lebron does both. He can create for his teammates and dish like a point guard. Indirectly, the gaps he can fill by being a freak player let you exploit other guys who are misfits. A player like Mo Williams can't (or couldn't) be a starting point guard, but when you have LeBron you don't need him to play that typical role and he actually fits better there than he ever would anywhere else.

Melo is like Dirk -- whether or not you like his overall numbers he will bring it every night and he's never once been overmatched in his career. Guys like Harden or Rose have been neutralized in the playoffs before. You look to these guys to get points 1o1 in late playoff games even 1o1 against Lebron.


if you are looking for a guy like that to do everything -- you are looking for the wrong things. If you realize what he can't do, and put role players around him that can play defense and hit 3s, you still have a special player that can put you over the top.

You do if your name is Duncan or Olajuwan.
I still think you need the right players around them. Say what you want about Drexler at that point, you still can't compare him to Rubio or JR Smith. Not even close. And if you're trying to make the argument that Love isn't as good as Duncan or Olajuwan, then sure, you won't get much resistance there.

The Duncan/Pop system is great for good wing players, like Ginobli and Parker. But are you telling me that anybody could have won? Are you saying they could have won with other fringe all-star guards like Jason Terry, Afflalo or Crawford or are you telling me they would have still won with Raymond Felton and Jameer Nelson?

monster numbers/great efficiency - NOT the problem
monster numbers/low efficiency - MIGHT be part of the problem
I agree with this 100%. There are definitely scenarios where a star can hurt the team by shooting too much, but its like the chicken or the egg.

Rudy Gay was the poster child for inefficient chucker for a while and he even has his game going right on his 3rd stop.

Goose17
02-10-2014, 12:27 PM
Try 1994 Rockets without Clyde and 03 Spurs with rookie Parker and 2nd year Ginobili, shells of what they became. And Kenny Smith? You must be joking.

In 94 Thorpe almost averaged a double-double in the playoffs. Horry and Maxwell also played well. He didn't do it alone, say whatever you like. Being the "star" of your team doesn't mean you won the games by yourself.

In game 7 of the finals against the Knicks Olajuwon shot barely 40% from the field (and shot similar in one of the earlier games in that series). In a game against Utah he barely managed to shoot 30%. He turned the ball over 8 times in one the games vs the Knicks.

In one of the games against Portland he barely shot 40% from the field and 65% from the line.

In another game against Portland he shot 46% and turned the ball over 6 times. In that same game Vernon Maxwell hit 24 points on SIXTY percent from the field. Thorpe hit 18 points on 61% and grabbed 12 rebounds.

Stop acting like he was perfect and was carrying that team. His team mates bailed him out more than once, even the greatest players need a good side kick or two.


As for the Jet, in 94-95 he went for 10 points and 4 assists, not big numbers but efficient numbers. eFG% of .567, AST% 22.4 ortg of 120.

But fine, take the jet out, what about Horry? Big shot Bob can't be forgotten. Maxwell? Thorpe had a few big games as well.

Pierzynski4Prez
02-10-2014, 01:01 PM
You mean Tim Duncan? The guy on the same team as Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili? You mean Olajuwan with Clyde Drexler and the Jet?

Yeah, they did it all themselves.

You should get your facts straight before you go mocking somebody. Not saying I agree with either of you, but you just look foolish here.

Answer me this:

What team was Drexler on during the Rockets 1st title run? What team was Manu/Parker on for Duncan's 1st ring?

Edit: Nvm. Just seeing multiple people already let you know, and you turn to 3 of Olajuwon's bad games throughout a championship playoff run as your support, as well as Kenny Smith's huge 10ppg/4apg. All role players have big games once in a while. Doesn't make them a star player which is what was being implied.

flea
02-10-2014, 01:54 PM
In 94 Thorpe almost averaged a double-double in the playoffs. Horry and Maxwell also played well. He didn't do it alone, say whatever you like. Being the "star" of your team doesn't mean you won the games by yourself.

In game 7 of the finals against the Knicks Olajuwon shot barely 40% from the field (and shot similar in one of the earlier games in that series). In a game against Utah he barely managed to shoot 30%. He turned the ball over 8 times in one the games vs the Knicks.

In one of the games against Portland he barely shot 40% from the field and 65% from the line.

In another game against Portland he shot 46% and turned the ball over 6 times. In that same game Vernon Maxwell hit 24 points on SIXTY percent from the field. Thorpe hit 18 points on 61% and grabbed 12 rebounds.

Stop acting like he was perfect and was carrying that team. His team mates bailed him out more than once, even the greatest players need a good side kick or two.


As for the Jet, in 94-95 he went for 10 points and 4 assists, not big numbers but efficient numbers. eFG% of .567, AST% 22.4 ortg of 120.

But fine, take the jet out, what about Horry? Big shot Bob can't be forgotten. Maxwell? Thorpe had a few big games as well.

They were all fine roleplayers. I think you missed the point of our discussion. Either that or you're trying to tell me a 10 and 4 Kenny Smith or Otis Thorpe at one point was a star.

valade16
02-10-2014, 01:55 PM
Here's something interesting about Kevin Love's shooting efficiency: It drops sharply in the 4th quarter:

eFG%
1st Qtr - 51.9%
2nd Qtr - 52.0%
3rd Qtr - 54.3%
4th Qtr - 46.1%

Could that be one of the many factors that go into why the Timberwolves aren't able to win a close game? Because the out of this world efficiency of their superstar comes crashing back down to earth?

Goose17
02-10-2014, 02:00 PM
They were all fine roleplayers. I think you missed the point of our discussion. Either that or you're trying to tell me a 10 and 4 Kenny Smith or Otis Thorpe at one point was a star.

I never said they were stars. I said you can't win a championship by yourself.

Nobody ever has and I highly doubt anyone ever will. Its a team game. End of.

flea
02-10-2014, 02:02 PM
I never said they were stars. I said you can't win a championship by yourself.

Nobody ever has and I highly doubt anyone ever will. Its a team game. End of.

Oh you meant literally 1v5 you can't win a championship. What an insight.

Jamiecballer
02-10-2014, 02:28 PM
Here's something interesting about Kevin Love's shooting efficiency: It drops sharply in the 4th quarter:

eFG%
1st Qtr - 51.9%
2nd Qtr - 52.0%
3rd Qtr - 54.3%
4th Qtr - 46.1%

Could that be one of the many factors that go into why the Timberwolves aren't able to win a close game? Because the out of this world efficiency of their superstar comes crashing back down to earth?
not likely. games are won or lost over 48 mins IMO.

Goose17
02-10-2014, 03:04 PM
Oh you meant literally 1v5 you can't win a championship. What an insight.

Uhh no. I mean you need good team mates.

Do you think if you put ANY individual (Jordan, Kobr, whoever) on a team where the rest of the roster are bench players from the d-league that they would win a chip?

Get a hold of yourself. You need good team mates.

Individuals win games. Teams win championships.

Goose17
02-10-2014, 03:31 PM
Answer me this:

What team was Drexler on during the Rockets 1st title run? What team was Manu/Parker on for Duncan's 1st ring?


I already answered your first question. Read back.

As for Duncan? He was playing with David Robinson and Avery. Now Robinson might have been past his prime but he was still putting up 15 ppg, 10 rpg and 2.5 bpg. Those aren't bad numbers by any stretch, he was still a very good player. And Avery was a solid set up man, again he was hitting about 12 and 7. So AGAIN, Duncan had some very solid players and decent role players on his team.

Are you telling me if you replaced Avery with Ramon Sessions and Robinson with Andris Biedrins that Duncan would still have led the Spurs to a championship?

Duncan is one of my top 3 favourite players of all time. So I'm not playing down his talent. See this is the problem. The star gets all the credit for winning and when they lose it's because of the coach or the role players or whatever.

If you were to ask Duncan himself I bet he would say the same, hell, Jordan said it. This is a team game, you don't win championships without a good team.

Nobody does it alone.

You can be the x factor in a certain game, or "the man" for your team, but you can't win every game by yourself.

Individuals win games. Teams win championships.

valade16
02-10-2014, 07:45 PM
not likely. games are won or lost over 48 mins IMO.

You're one of those eh? That a shot with 10:39 left in the 1st quarter is just as much pressure as a shot down 1 with :12 left?

I've had to point this out innumerable times on here, but those shots are not equal because if you miss the first shot you have roughly 40 minutes to correct the deficit and redeem yourself. If you miss the second shot you likely have no more opportunities.

For all your talk of stats about points scored per opportunity you're really going to say there is no correlation between a team that is literally the worst in the league in close games and the rapidly dropping efficiency of their star players ability to score in the 4th quarter.

Interesting...

flea
02-10-2014, 08:12 PM
You're one of those eh? That a shot with 10:39 left in the 1st quarter is just as much pressure as a shot down 1 with :12 left?

I've had to point this out innumerable times on here, but those shots are not equal because if you miss the first shot you have roughly 40 minutes to correct the deficit and redeem yourself. If you miss the second shot you likely have no more opportunities.

For all your talk of stats about points scored per opportunity you're really going to say there is no correlation between a team that is literally the worst in the league in close games and the rapidly dropping efficiency of their star players ability to score in the 4th quarter.

Interesting...

I don't think it has anything to do with being "clutch." Most superstars should see their scoring decrease towards the end of the 4th quarter when it becomes obvious that their team is going to them to score. As has mentioned before by other posters, Love probably struggles in the 4th quarter because of a combination of the defensive attention he's getting and the fact that he's not much of a shot creator.

valade16
02-10-2014, 09:06 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with being "clutch." Most superstars should see their scoring decrease towards the end of the 4th quarter when it becomes obvious that their team is going to them to score. As has mentioned before by other posters, Love probably struggles in the 4th quarter because of a combination of the defensive attention he's getting and the fact that he's not much of a shot creator.

Those are valid possible reasons why his shooting efficiency drops in the 4th quarter, but that is starting on supposition that there is a difference between 4th quarter scoring and scoring early in the game, a distinction the person I responded to denied.

Jamiecballer
02-10-2014, 09:18 PM
You're one of those eh? That a shot with 10:39 left in the 1st quarter is just as much pressure as a shot down 1 with :12 left?

I've had to point this out innumerable times on here, but those shots are not equal because if you miss the first shot you have roughly 40 minutes to correct the deficit and redeem yourself. If you miss the second shot you likely have no more opportunities.

For all your talk of stats about points scored per opportunity you're really going to say there is no correlation between a team that is literally the worst in the league in close games and the rapidly dropping efficiency of their star players ability to score in the 4th quarter.

Interesting...

actually no because that isn't what i said. i never said anything about pressure, only pointed out that all points count equally. if he shoots 75% in the first three quarters hypothetically, with any level of support from his teammates that should give him considerable cushion going into the fourth. i hope that makes sense.

rhino17
02-11-2014, 10:37 AM
I don't watch love play a lot but I did last night against my rockets. Despite his 31 pts and 10 rebounds,I've never seen a player put up so many numbers and affect the game less. He didn't really play at all within the offense unless he was coming off a screen for a shot. Unless he is shooting he's not really involved. On defense he's pretty much nothing.

valade16
02-11-2014, 01:58 PM
actually no because that isn't what i said. i never said anything about pressure, only pointed out that all points count equally. if he shoots 75% in the first three quarters hypothetically, with any level of support from his teammates that should give him considerable cushion going into the fourth. i hope that makes sense.

That does make sense. I apologize for my post earlier as apparently I jumped to conclusions. I still have a point of contention though. Even if you shoot 75% if all of your games in quarters 1-3 you will still find yourself in close games in the 4th, it is inevitable. Therefore that is still a valuable skill that he is lacking, especially when he is the superstar. The Superstar of a team is expected to be able to handle those situations and I feel one reason the team has such a porous record in close contests is because of his inability to do just that.

To be clear, I don’t think if he were great at it they would have an amazing record in close games, because obviously the supporting cast is not as good as many other teams, however I think instead of seeing a historically bad record in said games you’d see one closer to the league average.

Jamiecballer
02-11-2014, 03:45 PM
That does make sense. I apologize for my post earlier as apparently I jumped to conclusions. I still have a point of contention though. Even if you shoot 75% if all of your games in quarters 1-3 you will still find yourself in close games in the 4th, it is inevitable. Therefore that is still a valuable skill that he is lacking, especially when he is the superstar. The Superstar of a team is expected to be able to handle those situations and I feel one reason the team has such a porous record in close contests is because of his inability to do just that.

To be clear, I don’t think if he were great at it they would have an amazing record in close games, because obviously the supporting cast is not as good as many other teams, however I think instead of seeing a historically bad record in said games you’d see one closer to the league average.
when you posted those numbers earlier were those career numbers?

valade16
02-11-2014, 04:38 PM
when you posted those numbers earlier were those career numbers?

Those were his statistics for this season. I checked the statistics for every year and with the exception of his 2nd year when his shooting % actually increased in the 4th quarter (and his injury plagued last season, where he was not a good shooter in any quarter) he has remained remarkably consistent at having his shooting % drop in the 4th quarter.

Jamiecballer
02-11-2014, 10:09 PM
Those were his statistics for this season. I checked the statistics for every year and with the exception of his 2nd year when his shooting % actually increased in the 4th quarter (and his injury plagued last season, where he was not a good shooter in any quarter) he has remained remarkably consistent at having his shooting % drop in the 4th quarter.

he's had 2 years with a big drop in the 4th (current and 2010-11), 2 years where it was his best or 2nd best Q (2008-09 & 2011-12) and one year that is a total write-off.

not sure that i can read too much into that either way honestly.

Sandman
02-16-2014, 10:50 PM
Those are valid possible reasons why his shooting efficiency drops in the 4th quarter, but that is starting on supposition that there is a difference between 4th quarter scoring and scoring early in the game, a distinction the person I responded to denied.

Do his free throw attempts go up at all? I'd look this up myself but IDK where to find quarter splits.

thats another spot another scorer would help with. Love might be a good FT shooter but you can still hack the **** out of him if you have fouls to give.