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View Full Version : Should Chris Bosh be on the All-Star team?



JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 08:40 AM
First off, let me start by saying that Bosh is a great player. I'm not arguing against that. But is he having an All-Star season?

Right now he is averaging 16.7 points, and 6.7 rebounds on a very impressive .540 from the field (but when other teams are double-teaming LBJ and Wade, you are going to get some open shots).

Al Jefferson, on the other hand, is averaging almost 20/10 (19.3 points and 10.5 rebounds). He is also getting more blocks per game, and more assists with fewer turnover. Jefferson's addition to the Bobcats has helped them win as many game by the end of January as they won last year in the entire season (the Bobcats won only 21 games last year and are already at 20 wins this season).

The Detroit Pistons' Andre Drummond is not as offensively polished as Bosh, obviously, but his is the best rebounder in the league, out pacing Bosh 6 rebounds and only scoring 4 fewer points. Defensively there is no question who the better player is, and when it comes to field goal percentage, Drummond's .600 from the field is even more impressive than Bosh's .540.

The Pistons' Josh Smith is putting up far better defensive numbers, and passing numbers, though his rebounds are about even with Bosh and his FG% is obviously lower.

Marcin Gortat doesn't get as many looks at the ball, but he is one of many power forward or centers who are out-reboudning Bosh while handing out more assists and getting more blocks.

It wouldn't hurt to throw Thaddeous Young in the conversation here either, or even Spencer Hawes who is out-rebounding Bosh, and better than doubled Bosh's assist average, while also posting more blocks than Bosh.


Now, Bosh is certainly more deserving than some of these players, but at the same time, it seems pretty clear to me that coaches have just ignored the amazing season that Al Jefferson is having, and have no respect for the rebounding and defensive contributions of players like Drummond if they are going to give Bosh an All-Star spot ahead of them.


I understand the 'fans' vote for who they like, but the coaches should be a little better about their selections, instead of voting based on reputation.

Thoughts?

t_money25
01-31-2014, 09:14 AM
The selection process is flawed IMO. I think they weigh star power when making these selections hence the more popular players usually make it. Doesn't bother me much though.

Chrisclover
01-31-2014, 09:15 AM
The rebounding of Bosh is completely a joke without too much hesitation. He is rebounding like a SF rather then a C (where he is mostly used ).I would say any SF can challenge him in the rebounding column in a 5on 5game. Reasons are not that complicated. Firstly he is not suitable to play against the centers.Secondly his two buddies LBJ and Wade are just too good at rebounding. Both of them are flat out fighters who never doze off defensively.
Put him back to Raptors or a bottom team like Bobcats and he can easily has 10 rebounds per game just like he did before landed in Miami.

Chrisclover
01-31-2014, 09:24 AM
The selection process is flawed IMO. I think they weigh star power when making these selections hence the more popular players usually make it. Doesn't bother me much though.
Yes they weigh the popularity more .after all, the NBA is all about business,which you have a stronger sense about it when you notice the trademark of NBA is accompanied by the word “entertainment ”.When you ask a child or a young teenager ,he may not have a clue who Jefferson is but he definitely recognizes the Heat Jersey and Bosh 's alien-like face. This is the charisma of big market and success. You want fame ?go to lakers, Bulls, knicks and so forth and the world will be amazed by your prowess and startles like “I didnt think he would be this good. Wow ”

Chrisclover
01-31-2014, 09:41 AM
To answer your question, I think Bosh deserves it. Admittedly, he does regress statistically but it is just nothing more than his sacrifice to get championships rather than ageing ,complacent or slacking off.He tries his hardest to play his game.He kind of like swore to the media that he would rebound double digit. His clamor did elevate his morale significantly.You can not ignore that he is more confident and the fact that he could knock down clutch 3pt shots when the game was tied is a case in point. But I am not sure if his rebounding increased afterwards,probably just remained the same ;) . He gradually accepts his role as a third riddle in this team which aims at building at a dynasty.
As for his rebounding, there isnt really much we can do to help him. He has ceased growing his body apparently so do not expect him to jump higher. Just hoping Oden to free him up will be a rather more reasonable and advisible option. Lol hope Oden not disappoint him too much

MagicBucsSox
01-31-2014, 09:43 AM
The thread should be called "why is Wade on the all star team?". Fam voting aside coaches would've put him on the team. Guy is on the same schedule as justin verlander for crying outloud.

Slug3
01-31-2014, 11:40 AM
The thread should be called "why is Wade on the all star team?". Fam voting aside coaches would've put him on the team. Guy is on the same schedule as justin verlander for crying outloud.

Wade might have still been voted in by the coaches. If they put JJ in then I'm sure Wade could have made it.

Cal827
01-31-2014, 11:47 AM
This one isn't as terrible as Joe Johnson, as Bosh still is a very good player and an excellent defender now in Miami (both him improving and the team system helps him), but I think they should've given his spot to Jefferson.

Jefferson is averaging 20-10, and has been able to merge with Charlotte's team defense too.

bholly
01-31-2014, 11:56 AM
Drummond probably should've made it, probably over JJ, but any of those other guys above Bosh is pretty wrong.

bholly
01-31-2014, 12:06 PM
FWIW, Miami are +9.9 per 100 possessions with Bosh on the floor, and -2.2 per 100 possessions with him off, so let's not act like he's just riding on LBJ's coat tails. With him on they score about 5 points more, give up about 6 points less, and get about 2 more rebounds (all per 100 possessions).

You know, before someone accuses the coaches of having 'no respect for the rebounding and defensive contributions' of other players.

SRT4SS
01-31-2014, 12:12 PM
Absolutely should be an All-Star! No one in the entire league sacrifices more for the team then him. Shows real character going from a 20-10 guy to a third option. Winning should be rewarded.

ManRam
01-31-2014, 12:16 PM
They're pretty neck and neck, but Bosh is a better player. Jefferson's per game numbers might look better, but that's mainly because there's more volume to what he does. All things equal, Bosh is the player you'd much rather have. Bosh is far from the worst selection. He was one of my three reserve locks in the East :shrug:

Dade County
01-31-2014, 12:24 PM
The thread should be called "why is Wade on the all star team?". Fam voting aside coaches would've put him on the team. Guy is on the same schedule as justin verlander for crying outloud.

Wade is one of the greatest, what can I say. lol

MagicBucsSox
01-31-2014, 12:25 PM
Wade might have still been voted in by the coaches. If they put JJ in then I'm sure Wade could have made it.

Learn to read before you react, damn you'd be a bad cornerback my man

MagicBucsSox
01-31-2014, 12:25 PM
Wade is one of the greatest, what can I say. lol

Spare me

Tony_Starks
01-31-2014, 12:41 PM
Yes indeed. Anytime you can take a back seat, a third seat actually, and still be one of the best PF's in the game you are officially an allstar....

Nick O
01-31-2014, 01:11 PM
lol no one ever looks past the stats. which are still solid anyway. anyone have any idea how ****ing efficient this guy is?? he shoots alot of jump shots and still has a rediculous fg% . his defense is heavily improved. and the rebounding. 7 a game is serviceable for a PF which is what he really is anyway. hell ya hes deserving. why make this thread about arguably the most deserving reserve? lol

TylerSL
01-31-2014, 01:35 PM
you ask about Bosh when Dirk makes it in over Cousins, and Joe Johnson and Paul Millsap make it over Drummond and Jefferson.... :rolleyes:

Bosh should most certainly get in. His rebound numbers are not very good but aside from that, he is having his best season in a Heat uniform and arguably the best year of his career.

TylerSL
01-31-2014, 01:41 PM
The thread should be called "why is Wade on the all star team?". Fam voting aside coaches would've put him on the team. Guy is on the same schedule as justin verlander for crying outloud.

did u vote or support Kobe getting in??? Wade deserves a spot, but has missed some games.

Bartlee23
01-31-2014, 02:07 PM
The all-star game is just for fun. Does every deserving player make it .... of course not. The NBA wants the big names in the game and the most exciting players. That is why they pretty much removed centers from the game with the exception of a couple. Players in smaller markets or with losing records are going to have harder times getting a player on the team. It also doesn't help when fans vote players to start that may not deserve it due to their name/history.

Every player would love to be an all-star and only the few can. It's more or less a popular contest for the starters and as always there are a couple of people you scratch your head at why they didn't make it but if you're playing for Miami, Indiana, Oklahoma,Portland, LAC, etc the teams with the wining records they will always have more all-stars and the others will be left out. That's the way it's always been.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 02:26 PM
how can people justify saying no

smith&wesson
01-31-2014, 02:30 PM
First off, let me start by saying that Bosh is a great player. I'm not arguing against that. But is he having an All-Star season?

Right now he is averaging 16.7 points, and 6.7 rebounds on a very impressive .540 from the field (but when other teams are double-teaming LBJ and Wade, you are going to get some open shots).

Al Jefferson, on the other hand, is averaging almost 20/10 (19.3 points and 10.5 rebounds). He is also getting more blocks per game, and more assists with fewer turnover. Jefferson's addition to the Bobcats has helped them win as many game by the end of January as they won last year in the entire season (the Bobcats won only 21 games last year and are already at 20 wins this season).

The Detroit Pistons' Andre Drummond is not as offensively polished as Bosh, obviously, but his is the best rebounder in the league, out pacing Bosh 6 rebounds and only scoring 4 fewer points. Defensively there is no question who the better player is, and when it comes to field goal percentage, Drummond's .600 from the field is even more impressive than Bosh's .540.

The Pistons' Josh Smith is putting up far better defensive numbers, and passing numbers, though his rebounds are about even with Bosh and his FG% is obviously lower.

Marcin Gortat doesn't get as many looks at the ball, but he is one of many power forward or centers who are out-reboudning Bosh while handing out more assists and getting more blocks.

It wouldn't hurt to throw Thaddeous Young in the conversation here either, or even Spencer Hawes who is out-rebounding Bosh, and better than doubled Bosh's assist average, while also posting more blocks than Bosh.


Now, Bosh is certainly more deserving than some of these players, but at the same time, it seems pretty clear to me that coaches have just ignored the amazing season that Al Jefferson is having, and have no respect for the rebounding and defensive contributions of players like Drummond if they are going to give Bosh an All-Star spot ahead of them.


I understand the 'fans' vote for who they like, but the coaches should be a little better about their selections, instead of voting based on reputation.

Thoughts?

bosh is better than both.

if bosh was on the bobcats he would average 24 and 10. if he was on boston he would average the same and they would def have won more games.

the guy plays on a team with lebron and dwade. imagine the above mentioned guys played on the heat instead of bosh, what would their numbers look like ?

I dont even like bosh. but its true.

FlashBolt
01-31-2014, 02:37 PM
You're basing it off by stats. Let's base it off ability. Bosh has the ability to put up bigger numbers. I have no doubt he is a better player than 10 players on East.

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 02:39 PM
FWIW, Miami are +9.9 per 100 possessions with Bosh on the floor, and -2.2 per 100 possessions with him off, so let's not act like he's just riding on LBJ's coat tails. With him on they score about 5 points more, give up about 6 points less, and get about 2 more rebounds (all per 100 possessions).

You know, before someone accuses the coaches of having 'no respect for the rebounding and defensive contributions' of other players.

I think Bosh is great, don't get me wrong, but I hate this "he'd put up better numbers if he wasn't playing behind LBJ and Wade" argument. Is he efficient? YES! Does he get WAY more open shots than most PF because defenses had to focus on LBJ and Wade? YES! His FG% is as much because he gets more open looks playing along side HOFers. Bosh is great, but let's not pretend his FG% would be where it is if he was playing in Charlotte.

As to his rebounding... it is frankly pathetic. 6.7 a game? Michael Carter-Williams is a rookie POINT GUARD and he's only averaging 1 less rebound per game than Bosh. Drummond pretty much doubled Bosh's rebounding number, and Jefferson outscores, outrebounds and out passes Bosh.


Let's talk defence. Let's talk play making. Let's talk rebounding? Does Bosh do ANY of these things at an All-Star level? Aside from being the guy that can hit an open jumper, what does Bosh do? 6.7 rebounds is embarrassing for a starting PF or C. And more than 40 players in the league are scoring more than Bosh this season. 37 players have a higher FG%. Bosh isn't even in the top 50 for rebounding. THE TOP 50! That is pathetic! That is BAD numbers.

Omer ASik gets 18 minutes a game and he has a higher rebounding average than Bosh. Lance Stephenson is a SHOOTING guard and he outrebounds Bosh. LeBron James, the SMALL FORWARD for Miami is having his WORST rebounding season since his rookie year and he is STILL out rebounding Bosh.


The +9.9 you are talking about... that is a TEAM statistic.... not a player statistic. You send him to Charlotte in place of Jefferson, and you think Charlotte would be winning more games?

Bosh used to be a 20/10 player, now he is a role player.

When did less than 17 points and 6.7 rebounds at C or PF equate All-Star numbers?

Minimal
01-31-2014, 02:49 PM
He is better than them all. His numbers say nothing, the guy can average 25/10 as first option easily.

MagicBucsSox
01-31-2014, 02:57 PM
you ask about Bosh when Dirk makes it in over Cousins, and Joe Johnson and Paul Millsap make it over Drummond and Jefferson.... :rolleyes:

Bosh should most certainly get in. His rebound numbers are not very good but aside from that, he is having his best season in a Heat uniform and arguably the best year of his career.
Hell no I don't support Kobe being in there.

Slug3
01-31-2014, 02:58 PM
Learn to read before you react, damn you'd be a bad cornerback my man

What? You make no sense. All I stated was that if JJ got voted in by the coaches then Wade would have as well.

lol, please
01-31-2014, 03:07 PM
Of course not, it's a joke those three from the Heat got in because of who they are, just like it's a joke Kobe got in as well.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 03:11 PM
Of course not, it's a joke those three from the Heat got in because of who they are, just like it's a joke Kobe got in as well.

those 3 from the heat??? so youre telling me lebron shouldnt be there lol? .. and bosh would be averaging like 24/10 on another team. hes talented as hell

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 03:27 PM
You're basing it off by stats. Let's base it off ability. Bosh has the ability to put up bigger numbers. I have no doubt he is a better player than 10 players on East.

So you think All-Stars should be selected based on what you hypotheses they would get on another team?


Would Bosh score more on a lottery team? Yes. Would he shoot .540 doing it? NO!

Would he rebound more? No bloodly likely. The BEST rebounder on the Heat averages 6.8 a game. It's not like Bosh is playing alongside DeAndre Jordan and Reggie Evans when he's on the court.


Let's put it this way. Dwight Howard is playing next to TWO PLAYERS who average MORE REBOUNDS than Bosh, and he is STILL more rebounds than his career average. Plus he's got Harden and Parsons who combiend for over 10 a game.


Bosh might be scoring less because he shares the ball with LBJ and Wade, but he is NOT rebounding less because they are great rebounders. He's averaging a PATHETIC number of rebounds because he is an awful rebounder.

Can we PLEASE stop saying that Bosh would average 10 rebounds a game on another team? What is the basis of that?

Also, can we PLEASE stop saying that role players should make the All-Star team because the MIGHT put up better numbers if they were on a lottery team. Boozer would put up better numbers if they ran more plays through him and gave him more minutes. What's the point of pointing that out?

Jefferson IS posting better numbers. He gets more points. More rebounds. More assists. More steals. More blocks. Less fouls-per block, less turnovers-per assist. Other than the scoring, those numbers aren't influenced by playing with another All-Star.

Bosh has a higher FG% than most PF with .540, but he also gets open shots playing with LBJ and WAde. BFD.

I'm more impressed with a guy who is the focus up the opposing defence posting 20/10 than I am with what Bosh MIGHT post if he were on that team.

Bosh is a role player. He is a jump shooter who can't rebound worth $#!T. That doesn't make him an All-Star, it means he's riding on LBJ's coattails.

There is a reason the Raptors didn't make the playoffs the last two seasons he was there.

And why is it that when Bosh puts up 'inflated numbers' on a lottery team, he gets an All-Star nod, but when Jefferson helps a team improve, he gets not love for putting up the best numbers at his position in the conference?



You take out Bosh and put in Jefferson or Drummond, the Heat become a better team. Period.

bholly
01-31-2014, 03:31 PM
Let's talk defence. Let's talk play making. Let's talk rebounding? Does Bosh do ANY of these things at an All-Star level? Aside from being the guy that can hit an open jumper, what does Bosh do? 6.7 rebounds is embarrassing for a starting PF or C. And more than 40 players in the league are scoring more than Bosh this season. 37 players have a higher FG%. Bosh isn't even in the top 50 for rebounding. THE TOP 50! That is pathetic! That is BAD numbers.

lol. Dude might be the best defensive PF in the game. Try watching him some time.


The +9.9 you are talking about... that is a TEAM statistic.... not a player statistic.

The point wasn't the +9.9 it was the differential between the +9.9 and the -2.2 when he's on and off court. It's affected by the team, but there aren't too many guys who are causing that differential in that situation.


You send him to Charlotte in place of Jefferson, and you think Charlotte would be winning more games?

Lol, yes? Is that a serious question? You think Jefferson - a classic big numbers on a bad team guy - is better than Bosh?


Bosh used to be a 20/10 player, now he is a role player.

He's still every bit as good as he was - better, even - he just accepted a role with smaller stats that will help the team. His willingness to do that is a plus, not a minus.


When did less than 17 points and 6.7 rebounds at C or PF equate All-Star numbers?

It doesn't. That's exactly the point. Stats don't determine All Star spots, especially the reserves. Every argument you're making is just stats stats stats. "Oh well he doesn't rebound that much". I know, and still think he's better because of everything else great he does - just repeating rebounding stats doesn't prove anything new. Actually watch him. He's exceptional. The coaches see that, even if you don't.

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 03:31 PM
those 3 from the heat??? so youre telling me lebron shouldnt be there lol? .. and bosh would be averaging like 24/10 on another team. hes talented as hell


I'm curious as to how Bosh would suddenly become a better rebounder on another team? That makes no sense at all.

Howard is playing alongside two player who average more boards per game than Bosh and he's averaging above his career average. So how is playing on a team where NOBODY is even averaging 7 boards a game, Bosh suddenly can't rebound? He's not playing alongside Andre Drummond and DeAndre Jordan. Why do people keep pretending like Bosh is a good rebounder when he's not?


And why does nobody speak to his lack of defense and passing?

He is a jump shooter. He hits .540. Great. What else does he do? And do NOT tell me what he WOULD get on another team. Tell me what he IS doing for the team he is on, other than hitting open shots because LBJ and Wade get double teamed?

ManRam
01-31-2014, 03:37 PM
You take out Bosh and put in Jefferson or Drummond, the Heat become a better team. Period.

Admittedly, I didn't read any of your post but for some reason my eyes caught this. I don't disagree about Drummond, to an extent (his youth and inexperience compared to Bosh's experience and established chemistry have to be taken into account) but I'm less convinced it's because he's better, rather, he's a better fit on the Heat. I don't think I agree with Jefferson, but it's close. He's more or less similar to Bosh, but Bosh as a 1 option has always been better than Al as a 1 option. Drummond's the truest of a center of the bunch, and a rim protector/stud rebounder on the Heat would be a HUGE addition. But again, I don't think I can sit here and say that both are better than Bosh. He fills a bigger need, but that doesn't make him better.

I certainly won't say it about Al. Drummond's time will come too.

If I'm building a team for the 2013-14 season ONLY, and my first pick is up, I'm taking Bosh over those too. Drummond is close, Jefferson isn't. I think that's more telling than swapping guys on established teams because other factors that have nothing to do with simply who's better than who come into play

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 03:39 PM
lol. Dude might be the best defensive PF in the game. Try watching him some time.



The point wasn't the +9.9 it was the differential between the +9.9 and the -2.2 when he's on and off court. It's affected by the team, but there aren't too many guys who are causing that differential in that situation.



Lol, yes? Is that a serious question? You think Jefferson - a classic big numbers on a bad team guy - is better than Bosh?



He's still every bit as good as he was - better, even - he just accepted a role with smaller stats that will help the team. His willingness to do that is a plus, not a minus.



It doesn't. That's exactly the point. Stats don't determine All Star spots, especially the reserves. Every argument you're making is just stats stats stats. "Oh well he doesn't rebound that much". I know, and still think he's better because of everything else great he does - just repeating rebounding stats doesn't prove anything new. Actually watch him. He's exceptional. The coaches see that, even if you don't.


You use stats and then say stats don't matter?

Ok... when Bosh gets pulled off the court, so do the other starters. That means that the "9.9" is influenced by LBJ and Wade as well. +/- can help, but it is not definitive.

As to defense, I've watched Bosh play defense. Is he bad? No. I wouldn't say so. Is he great? No. He is nowhere near the defender that Drummond or Smith are.

And if you want to discredit stats because Jefferson is on a bad team, then what is the point of even talking about this. You create imaginary stats syaing Bosh would do better on another team, BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THAT! That is YOUR HYPOTHESIS.

Fact: Bosh is a $#!TTY passer.
FACT: Bosh is a $#!TTY rebounder (and don't give me this $#!T that he's on a good team so his rebounds went down, when Garnett went to Boston he rebounding numbers were steady even when his scoring went down: there are no dominant rebounders in Miami, there is no reason Bosh shouldn't be pulling in 10 a game: DO NOT MAKE LAME EXCUSES to excuse his p!ss poor rebounding).



He shoots .540 from the floor. What else does he do?


Jefferson IS the better passer. He gets more assists, and has far less all-stars to pass to. He gets less turnover per assists. He get less fouls-persteals&blocks. He gets more rebounds. What else does the guy have to do to prove he's playing better ball?


You ignore stats, bring up imaginary stats, and bring up team stats and then act like what you say i gospel.

Seriously?


Let's talk about what Jefferson and Bosh ARE doing and not what you think they are capable of. All-Star spots should be awarded to guys who ARE producing, not guys who COULD produce.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 03:40 PM
So you think All-Stars should be selected based on what you hypotheses they would get on another team?


Would Bosh score more on a lottery team? Yes. Would he shoot .540 doing it? NO!

Would he rebound more? No bloodly likely. The BEST rebounder on the Heat averages 6.8 a game. It's not like Bosh is playing alongside DeAndre Jordan and Reggie Evans when he's on the court.


Let's put it this way. Dwight Howard is playing next to TWO PLAYERS who average MORE REBOUNDS than Bosh, and he is STILL more rebounds than his career average. Plus he's got Harden and Parsons who combiend for over 10 a game.


Bosh might be scoring less because he shares the ball with LBJ and Wade, but he is NOT rebounding less because they are great rebounders. He's averaging a PATHETIC number of rebounds because he is an awful rebounder.

Can we PLEASE stop saying that Bosh would average 10 rebounds a game on another team? What is the basis of that?

Also, can we PLEASE stop saying that role players should make the All-Star team because the MIGHT put up better numbers if they were on a lottery team. Boozer would put up better numbers if they ran more plays through him and gave him more minutes. What's the point of pointing that out?

Jefferson IS posting better numbers. He gets more points. More rebounds. More assists. More steals. More blocks. Less fouls-per block, less turnovers-per assist. Other than the scoring, those numbers aren't influenced by playing with another All-Star.

Bosh has a higher FG% than most PF with .540, but he also gets open shots playing with LBJ and WAde. BFD.

I'm more impressed with a guy who is the focus up the opposing defence posting 20/10 than I am with what Bosh MIGHT post if he were on that team.

Bosh is a role player. He is a jump shooter who can't rebound worth $#!T. That doesn't make him an All-Star, it means he's riding on LBJ's coattails.

There is a reason the Raptors didn't make the playoffs the last two seasons he was there.

And why is it that when Bosh puts up 'inflated numbers' on a lottery team, he gets an All-Star nod, but when Jefferson helps a team improve, he gets not love for putting up the best numbers at his position in the conference?



You take out Bosh and put in Jefferson or Drummond, the Heat become a better team. Period.

Bosh averaged 24 and 11 while shooting 52% in his final year in toronto.. its not impossible to say hed shoot 54% at all.. he shoots 50% for his career. hes efficient as hell dude.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 03:42 PM
I'm curious as to how Bosh would suddenly become a better rebounder on another team? That makes no sense at all.

Howard is playing alongside two player who average more boards per game than Bosh and he's averaging above his career average. So how is playing on a team where NOBODY is even averaging 7 boards a game, Bosh suddenly can't rebound? He's not playing alongside Andre Drummond and DeAndre Jordan. Why do people keep pretending like Bosh is a good rebounder when he's not?


And why does nobody speak to his lack of defense and passing?

He is a jump shooter. He hits .540. Great. What else does he do? And do NOT tell me what he WOULD get on another team. Tell me what he IS doing for the team he is on, other than hitting open shots because LBJ and Wade get double teamed?

he averaged 11 in his last season with toronto.

bholly
01-31-2014, 03:45 PM
And why is it that when Bosh puts up 'inflated numbers' on a lottery team, he gets an All-Star nod, but when Jefferson helps a team improve, he gets not love for putting up the best numbers at his position in the conference?

Because Bosh was clearly better? 2009-10 Bosh made the Raptors 5.4 points per 100 possessions better - took them from a big negative to a positive. 2013-14 makes the Bobcats 1.7 points per 100 possessions better - from a negative to still a negative.
And their individual numbers, seeing as you seem to think the ASG is about those:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=boshch01&y1=2010&p2=jeffeal01&y2=2014

(note Bosh shooting .516 to Jefferson's .486, his substantially greater efficiency measures, and a higher rebounding percentage). Pre-Heat Bosh was just better than current Al Jeff, which is why he made it and Al didn't.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 03:48 PM
Because Bosh was clearly better? 2009-10 Bosh made the Raptors 5.4 points per 100 possessions better - took them from a big negative to a positive. 2013-14 makes the Bobcats 1.7 points per 100 possessions better - from a negative to still a negative.
And their individual numbers, seeing as you seem to think the ASG is about those:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=boshch01&y1=2010&p2=jeffeal01&y2=2014

(note Bosh shooting .516 to Jefferson's .486, his substantially greater efficiency measures, and a higher rebounding percentage). Pre-Heat Bosh was just better than current Al Jeff, which is why he made it and Al didn't.

not to mention bosh was an average defender in toronto and Al has always been below.

ManRam
01-31-2014, 03:51 PM
[quote]And why does nobody speak to his lack of defense and passing?

He is a jump shooter. He hits .540. Great. What else does he do? And do NOT tell me what he WOULD get on another team. Tell me what he IS doing for the team he is on, other than hitting open shots because LBJ and Wade get double teamed?

Last year Bosh had a more positive defensive impact than both Jefferson and Drummond. I highly doubt much has changed with Jefferson who has ALWAYS been a terrible defender. I have only caught maybe 3 Pistons games this year so I can't comment much on Drummond's defense, which I assume has improved and I do think he has elite potential. I do look at that team though and see they are terrible defensively, that's a bit questionable.

We can look at the RAPM data when it's available and see if either have caught Bosh defensively there, because he led both of them (I'd imagine Drummond did take a leap forward). We can look at some PPP stats which suggest that there's little difference between Bosh and Drummond overall, though the latter is certainly better in post-up defense. We know how incompetent Jefferson is defensively, and the stats all support that.

If you're arguing in favor of Al Jefferson there's NEVER a reason to bring up defense, FYI.


You can keep ignoring how being on a certain team affects how you play and how you produce. But that's just silly. If we're talking about who is tangibly better than the other than there's no reason to NOT take that into account. I just want the best players in the game. I'll give a nod to entertainment value if I need an absolute tie breaker. I think Bosh is certainly better than Jefferson. Drummond vs. Bosh is much closer, but you've really forgotten how great Bosh is...

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 03:53 PM
he averaged 11 in his last season with toronto.

Right. And? I'm not arguing that he shouldn't have made the All-Star team THAT year.

Carlos Boozer averaged 11 a game that year too. Should he be on the All-Star team for that? Steve Nash averaged 11 assists that year. Does that mean he can do it this year too? Jason Kidd posted 9 assists that season. Just because Bosh did something one season, does mean he is capable of it every season.

You speak to the fact that he DID average that. I'm speaking to what is IS averaging. He's not as good a rebounder as he was. Period. He has regressed. I pointed out that Howard is above his career average depsite playing with TWO rebounders who are averaging more than Bosh. Why is Bosh averaging less? Becuase he turned into a $#!TTY rebounder, that's why.

And Tracy McGrady averaged 25 points per game his last season with Orlando. That doesn't mean he can do it this year.


You want to start award All-Star slots for what guys did 4 years ago?
This is the problem. You think Bosh's deserves it for what you THINK he can do

Nick O
01-31-2014, 03:54 PM
lol where do people get off thinking bosh is a bad defender? do they watch him play? hes incredibly improved from his days in toronto where he was still averageish on that end.

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 03:55 PM
Because Bosh was clearly better? 2009-10 Bosh made the Raptors 5.4 points per 100 possessions better - took them from a big negative to a positive. 2013-14 makes the Bobcats 1.7 points per 100 possessions better - from a negative to still a negative.
And their individual numbers, seeing as you seem to think the ASG is about those:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=boshch01&y1=2010&p2=jeffeal01&y2=2014(note Bosh shooting .516 to Jefferson's .486, his substantially greater efficiency measures, and a higher rebounding percentage). Pre-Heat Bosh was just better than current Al Jeff, which is why he made it and Al didn't.

So we are awarding spots on the All-Star team for what players did 4 years ago? Ok. I'm convinced. I thought we were talking about what players are doing THIS season. But ok.

bholly
01-31-2014, 03:55 PM
You use stats and then say stats don't matter?

No, I said stats aren't everything. I'd follow that up by saying that counting stats (ppg, rpg, etc etc) can be very misleading when comparing players in different situations.


As to defense, I've watched Bosh play defense. Is he bad? No. I wouldn't say so. Is he great? No.

Then you didn't watch closely enough or just didn't know what you were watching. He's a seriously good defensive player.


You create imaginary stats syaing Bosh would do better on another team, BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THAT! That is YOUR HYPOTHESIS.

I never once mentioned him being on a hypothetical different team - and I certainly didn't create stats for him. After you posted this, I posted his stats from his last season in Toronto for you, seeing as you asked about it. What's the problem?


He shoots .540 from the floor. What else does he do?

Elite defensively, A+ team guy, ideal player for that team, what else do you want? Let me guess, more counting stats?


Jefferson IS the better passer.

lol.


He gets more assists, and has far less all-stars to pass to. He gets less turnover per assists. He get less fouls-persteals&blocks. He gets more rebounds. What else does the guy have to do to prove he's playing better ball?

He has to be a better ball player. Stats are indicative, they aren't the actual thing we're trying to compare. They're a tool.



You ignore stats, bring up imaginary stats, and bring up team stats and then act like what you say i gospel.

Seriously?

lol, what? Did you forget who you are in this conversation? Read back through my posts and your posts and see which one deserves this criticism. I mentioned one stat - the on/off split. You're the guy talking about rebounding numbers again and again, and Jeffersons points/rebounds/blocks/whatever, and Bosh's FG%. You're the guy posting all the 'Fact:' ********. I'm not saying anything is gospel.



All-Star spots should be awarded to guys who ARE producing, not guys who COULD produce.

Yup, only I define producing as creating winning basketball, and you define it as creating counting stats. Different.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 03:56 PM
Right. And? I'm not arguing that he shouldn't have made the All-Star team THAT year.

Carlos Boozer averaged 11 a game that year too. Should he be on the All-Star team for that? Steve Nash averaged 11 assists that year. Does that mean he can do it this year too? Jason Kidd posted 9 assists that season. Just because Bosh did something one season, does mean he is capable of it every season.

You speak to the fact that he DID average that. I'm speaking to what is IS averaging. He's not as good a rebounder as he was. Period. He has regressed. I pointed out that Howard is above his career average depsite playing with TWO rebounders who are averaging more than Bosh. Why is Bosh averaging less? Becuase he turned into a $#!TTY rebounder, that's why.

And Tracy McGrady averaged 25 points per game his last season with Orlando. That doesn't mean he can do it this year.


You want to start award All-Star slots for what guys did 4 years ago?
This is the problem. You think Bosh's deserves it for what you THINK he can do

i think he deserves it because he puts up solid numbers with ridiculous efficiency while being a third option. i think he deserves for his heavily improved defense. i think he deserves it because he always steps up when either lebron or wade are out. hes incredibly clutch. hard working and hes just frankly better than any other option out there.

bholly
01-31-2014, 03:58 PM
So we are awarding spots on the All-Star team for what players did 4 years ago? Ok. I'm convinced. I thought we were talking about what players are doing THIS season. But ok.

lol, what? Where did I say he deserves it this year because of that year?

You directly asked why current Al Jeff misses out this year while late-Toronto Bosh got in while he did, and you're focussing on their stats as the complete argument - so I posted a direct response to that question using the argument you'd understand.

bucketss
01-31-2014, 03:58 PM
i get pissed off every time i see his face wtf never hated someone i didn't know so much.


anyway, he deserves it, solid pf on good team.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 04:00 PM
i get pissed off every time i see his face wtf never hated someone i didn't know so much.


anyway, he deserves it, solid pf on good team.

this is how i feel about joakim noah.

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 04:02 PM
[QUOTE=JasonJohnHorn;27900763]

Last year Bosh had a more positive defensive impact than both Jefferson and Drummond. I highly doubt much has changed with Jefferson who has ALWAYS been a terrible defender. I have only caught maybe 3 Pistons games this year so I can't comment much on Drummond's defense, which I assume has improved and I do think he has elite potential. I do look at that team though and see they are terrible defensively, that's a bit questionable.

We can look at the RAPM data when it's available and see if either have caught Bosh defensively there, because he led both of them (I'd imagine Drummond did take a leap forward). We can look at some PPP stats which suggest that there's little difference between Bosh and Drummond overall, though the latter is certainly better in post-up defense. We know how incompetent Jefferson is defensively, and the stats all support that.

If you're arguing in favor of Al Jefferson there's NEVER a reason to bring up defense, FYI.


You can keep ignoring how being on a certain team affects how you play and how you produce. But that's just silly. If we're talking about who is tangibly better than the other than there's no reason to NOT take that into account. I just want the best players in the game. I'll give a nod to entertainment value if I need an absolute tie breaker. I think Bosh is certainly better than Jefferson. Drummond vs. Bosh is much closer, but you've really forgotten how great Bosh is...


You are right. Bosh is a good defender. I'm not convinced that he is a great defender, and I agree with you that Jefferson is not a great defender either. Defense is hard to read on stats. Bosh plays on a good defensive team with an underrated defensive coach. Part of his success is because of his work, and part is because of the guys he plays with. That said, bigs have great games against Bosh. So how big an impact does he have? I'm not so sure. Hibbert literally doubled his regular season average against the Heat in the playoffs. What does that say?

Statistically... Jefferson does more in terms of steals and blocks, and his fouls-per-steals/blocks is lower than Bosh, so that has to say something, even if Bosh does things that don't show up in the stat line.


For me, Jefferson is rebounding the ball MUCH better and passing much better. He gets far more assists than Bosh and has a better assist-to-turnover ratio. That counts for a lot in my book.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=ManRamForPrez24;27900866]


You are right. Bosh is a good defender. I'm not convinced that he is a great defender, and I agree with you that Jefferson is not a great defender either. Defense is hard to read on stats. Bosh plays on a good defensive team with an underrated defensive coach. Part of his success is because of his work, and part is because of the guys he plays with. That said, bigs have great games against Bosh. So how big an impact does he have? I'm not so sure. Hibbert literally doubled his regular season average against the Heat in the playoffs. What does that say?

Statistically... Jefferson does more in terms of steals and blocks, and his fouls-per-steals/blocks is lower than Bosh, so that has to say something, even if Bosh does things that don't show up in the stat line.


For me, Jefferson is rebounding the ball MUCH better and passing much better. He gets far more assists than Bosh and has a better assist-to-turnover ratio. That counts for a lot in my book.

Josh mcroberts for the ASG!

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 04:07 PM
lol, what? Where did I say he deserves it this year because of that year?

You directly asked why current Al Jeff misses out this year while late-Toronto Bosh got in while he did, and you're focussing on their stats as the complete argument - so I posted a direct response to that question using the argument you'd understand.


I don't remember asking how good a rebound Bosh was in Toronto.


Look. Bosh is a good play. Jefferson is having a better season. Outside of Bosh's FG%, there is nothing concrete that Bosh is dong better than Jefferson THIS year.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is a better rebounder.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is a better passer.

Jefferosn, THIS YEAR, is getting more assists.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is getting more rebounds.

Jefferson THIS YERA, is getting more steals.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, us getting more blocks.

Jefferson THIS YEAR, gets fewer fouls per steals/blocks.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, gets fewer turnovers per assist.


What else does that guy have to do? Sign with a team that has two HOFers?

Bosh, THIS YEAR, is playing with LBJ and Wade and has a higher FG%, but also gets more open shots because of who he plays with, and despite having FAR superior talent around him, has fewer assists.

Jamiecballer
01-31-2014, 04:14 PM
why is this so hotly contested when there are things in life that are much bigger issues.

namely childhood obesity, sex predators and Joe Johson.

2-ONE-5
01-31-2014, 04:22 PM
no he doesnt. 16 and 6 seriously? i dont care if he shoots 54% bcuz he has it easy with James and Wade out there with him

bholly
01-31-2014, 04:23 PM
I don't remember asking how good a rebound Bosh was in Toronto.

You directly asked why Bosh made it when he was on a lottery team and Al Jeff isn't making it now (I even quoted your question - no more and no less - in the post). My answer was that Bosh was better then than Al Jeff is now, and posted the stats because that's clearly your determinant of how good someone is. It isn't that complicated.

As an aside, literally in parentheses, I added that you should note his high FG% and higher rebound rate, because you'd said about a thousand times how he benefits in those regards from playing with LBJ and Wade, implying that he couldn't do it alone (while ironically complaining about other people using hypotheticals).



Look. Bosh is a good play. Jefferson is having a better season. Outside of Bosh's FG%, there is nothing concrete that Bosh is dong better than Jefferson THIS year.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is a better rebounder.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is a better passer.

Jefferosn, THIS YEAR, is getting more assists.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is getting more rebounds.

Jefferson THIS YERA, is getting more steals.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, us getting more blocks.

Jefferson THIS YEAR, gets fewer fouls per steals/blocks.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, gets fewer turnovers per assist.


What else does that guy have to do? Sign with a team that has two HOFers?

Bosh, THIS YEAR, is playing with LBJ and Wade and has a higher FG%, but also gets more open shots because of who he plays with, and despite having FAR superior talent around him, has fewer assists.

Again, I got it. You've posted the stats again and again. Maybe this time you could try to understand the response: there's much more to this than stats. It's possible to be the better basketball player - and more deserving of an ASG spot - with lesser counting stats.
The difference of opinion isn't that I don't know Jefferson has better stats, so repeating the stats for the 17th time doesn't help. The difference of opinion comes from the fact that you think those counting stats should be the determinant of ASG spots and other people don't. That's the part you need to argue if you want to convince people Al Jeff should get in.

bholly
01-31-2014, 04:23 PM
why is this so hotly contested when there are things in life that are much bigger issues.

namely childhood obesity, sex predators and Joe Johson.

lol'd.

2-ONE-5
01-31-2014, 04:24 PM
Absolutely should be an All-Star! No one in the entire league sacrifices more for the team then him. Shows real character going from a 20-10 guy to a third option. Winning should be rewarded.

then why do the Heat have more all star then the Pacers when the PAcers have the better record?

Chronz
01-31-2014, 04:26 PM
This has been Bosh's best year in Miami, why wouldnt he make it?

JordansBulls
01-31-2014, 04:38 PM
If Roy Hibbert and Joakim Noah are allstars then Bosh definitely deserves to be an allstar.

ManRam
01-31-2014, 04:49 PM
I don't remember asking how good a rebound Bosh was in Toronto.


Look. Bosh is a good play. Jefferson is having a better season. Outside of Bosh's FG%, there is nothing concrete that Bosh is dong better than Jefferson THIS year.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is a better rebounder.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is a better passer.

Jefferosn, THIS YEAR, is getting more assists.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is getting more rebounds.

Jefferson THIS YERA, is getting more steals.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, us getting more blocks.

Jefferson THIS YEAR, gets fewer fouls per steals/blocks.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, gets fewer turnovers per assist.


What else does that guy have to do? Sign with a team that has two HOFers?

Bosh, THIS YEAR, is playing with LBJ and Wade and has a higher FG%, but also gets more open shots because of who he plays with, and despite having FAR superior talent around him, has fewer assists.

Your problem is you think whatever/per game = "better". Yes, Jefferson is producing more VOLUME than Bosh. For sure. He's statistically having a better year. Give Bosh Jefferson's role and I'm sure he does it better. He's shown he can in the past. He's filling a role, and you seemingly have no ability to take that into factor.

I maintain, and most will, that Bosh is a better player. This is where per-game stats can be wildly misleading. If you compare Bosh's per game stats to a ton of other centers who get a lot of volume, he'll look worse than them too. But again, per-game stats really have limited meaning...especially when you have no ability to put them into context.

EDIT: My posts are kinda redundant to bholly's. Great minds think alike, I guess ;)

bholly
01-31-2014, 04:51 PM
If Roy Hibbert and Joakim Noah are allstars then Bosh definitely deserves to be an allstar.

^Hibbert's just about a lock, there's no point getting too much into comparing guys like that too heavily. But each of Noah, JJ, Millsap, DeRozan should be below Bosh on the totem pole, so I agree it's strange that people are targeting him instead of those guys.

SRT4SS
01-31-2014, 04:51 PM
then why do the Heat have more all star then the Pacers when the PAcers have the better record?

I also feel that Lance Stephenson and Kyle Lowry should be all stars. NOT Joe Johnson, NOT Kyrie Irving. These two are not even putting up huge numbers for their sub .500 teams.

Shlumpledink
01-31-2014, 05:12 PM
The all star game is all about popularity. Casual fans don't know al jefferson or andre drummond, and thats the majority of the voters

naps
01-31-2014, 05:16 PM
Bosh deserves it, no question. He's arguably the most important piece on the 2 time reigning champs. Don't just look at raw stats. I have no doubt Bosh would be a 24/10 player as a first option on a bad team.

bholly
01-31-2014, 05:20 PM
The all star game is all about popularity. Casual fans don't know al jefferson or andre drummond, and thats the majority of the voters

Pretty sure we're talking about the reserves, who are selected by the coaches.

Chronz
01-31-2014, 05:30 PM
He's statistically having a better year.
Thats debatable.

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 06:20 PM
You directly asked why Bosh made it when he was on a lottery team and Al Jeff isn't making it now (I even quoted your question - no more and no less - in the post). My answer was that Bosh was better then than Al Jeff is now, and posted the stats because that's clearly your determinant of how good someone is. It isn't that complicated.

As an aside, literally in parentheses, I added that you should note his high FG% and higher rebound rate, because you'd said about a thousand times how he benefits in those regards from playing with LBJ and Wade, implying that he couldn't do it alone (while ironically complaining about other people using hypotheticals).




Again, I got it. You've posted the stats again and again. Maybe this time you could try to understand the response: there's much more to this than stats. It's possible to be the better basketball player - and more deserving of an ASG spot - with lesser counting stats.
The difference of opinion isn't that I don't know Jefferson has better stats, so repeating the stats for the 17th time doesn't help. The difference of opinion comes from the fact that you think those counting stats should be the determinant of ASG spots and other people don't. That's the part you need to argue if you want to convince people Al Jeff should get in.

Stats don't say everything, but they say a lot.

That said, everybody here seems to be using stats to defend Bosh, they are just using the "he would get these numbers if" stats, AKA imaginary stats.

You want to say "so and so is more talented than so and so even if their numbers aren't as good", ok.

I think guys should make the team based on what they ARE doing and not what they COULD be doing.

Bosh IS an efficient jump shooter and decent defender. That's what he DOES do. What he could do? You want to start awarding all-star slots based on potential instead of productivity? Ok. I'll go with productivity.

There is a reason Al Horford and Derrick Rose were not named to the team. Because what they ARE producing and what they COULD be producing are two very different things. Whether its barbecue of a back-log at a position, or depth on a team, or injury, there are all kinds of reasons why guys aren't putting up their best possible numbers. I agree that Bosh could score more on a lottery team, but I also think he would score less efficiently and I see no evidence (nor has anybody offered any) to suggest his rebounding would improve. There is NO reaosn for Bosh not to be grabbing 10 boards a game other than he either isn't that good a rebounder, or he isn't trying, and either case means he's not deserving of an All-Star selection based on his rebounding numbers.


What is and what could be. You can imagine that Bosh is more skilled, but where is the evidence? Imagining that he would grab 10 boards a game on a $#!T team doesn't mean he would.

I totally get the stats don't tell you everything. I was ok with Garnett getting an All-Star spot when his numbers were down, because he was still a monster on the glass and his defense was still amazing. He was just getting fewer minutes. But, with Bosh, he IS getting the minutes. His scoring is down? Ok. Fine. By why isn;t he rebounding? Why do his turnovers exceed his assists? Why does he get more fouls-per-block than Jefferson? Why does he get more fouls-per-steal? These aren't things impacted by taking a backseat to a better scorer than James. These are things that demonstrate a level of skill.

Outside of shooting the ball better than Jefferson, what is Bosh doing better than him? I mean, Jefferson doesn't have LBJ or Wade, or Allen to pass to, but somehow, despite the fact he's passing to far less effcient scorers, he's getting more assists. There are SIX players on the Bobcats, other than Jefferson, who are averaging 4 or more rebounds per game, compared to only TWO in the Heat, other than Bosh, who are averaging more than 4 a game. Jefferson has more rebounders around him than Bosh. Why aren't his rebounding numbers suffering? Why are Bosh's down?



We aren't talking about Tim Duncan or Dirk or Garnett, getting on years but still talented and still playing at a high level. We are talking about Bosh, who is young, and who outside of hitting open jumpers consistently and playing good team defense, isn't really doing much.

But we can imagine that he would be posting 25/11 on the Bobcats and then dismiss what Jefferson is ACTUALLY doing, and ignore the fact that Bosh's passing and rebounding is frankly below average.


As to 'hypocritically' complaining about imaginary stats, my point WAS that whilst some people project imaginary stats, none of them are considering the fact that having 2 HOFers on the court with him is helping him to open things up. That is not a 'hypothetical' observation, that is an observation which those who are suggesting the hypothetical are mentioning. Nothing hypocritical about that unless YOU take it out of context.


What IS and what COULD BE are to different things. When awarding a player with something like an All-Star appearance, or an All-NBA team or an award, I'll go with judging them based on what they DO and not what they MIGHT do.

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 06:21 PM
why is this so hotly contested when there are things in life that are much bigger issues.

namely childhood obesity, sex predators and Joe Johson.


THIS!!! lol

Chronz
01-31-2014, 06:28 PM
Stats don't say everything, but they say a lot.

That said, everybody here seems to be using stats to defend Bosh, they are just using the "he would get these numbers if" stats, AKA imaginary stats.

You want to say "so and so is more talented than so and so even if their numbers aren't as good", ok.

I think guys should make the team based on what they ARE doing and not what they COULD be doing.
The thing is, some stats are more conducive to WINNING. There is nothing imaginary about Bosh's efficiency, your argument against that is just as imaginary as the argument you think is being applied against Jefferson. They have differing strengths, that Bosh has already proven capable of carrying a bigger load while Jefferson has NEVER proven capable of playing with such high 2-way efficiency should be reason enough not to doubt the Boshtrich. Based on what they are currently doing, Bosh is better. Remember when you argued in defense of Blake by acknowledging he could have put up 20-10+ if given the minutes, hes still the same player but hes playing on a winning team so his superficial averages are stunted. Per possession efficiency matters as much as per game production.


Bosh IS an efficient jump shooter and decent defender. That's what he DOES do. What he could do? You want to start awarding all-star slots based on potential instead of productivity? Ok. I'll go with productivity.
Define productivity, HOW are you weighing the stats? Do you see any other all combining metric that agrees with you? If not can you elaborate on your personal barometer for "productivity"

Will get to the rest some other day maybe

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 06:30 PM
^Hibbert's just about a lock, there's no point getting too much into comparing guys like that too heavily. But each of Noah, JJ, Millsap, DeRozan should be below Bosh on the totem pole, so I agree it's strange that people are targeting him instead of those guys.

The All-Star team has to have a certain number of points guards and shooting guards. Complaining that a guy like Drummond didn't get selected over JJ or DeRozen is illogical. They don't even play the same position.

If the top ten players in the NBA all play center, you are going to fill the All-NBA first team with centers.

As for placing Millsap below Bosh on the totem pole, I guess we already know you are not interested in stats, but he is getting more: points, rebounds, steals, assists, and blocks than Bosh. with better ratios than Bosh. All Bosh has on him is FG%. But I guess that is the ONLY stat that counts. Taking a team depleted by injury into the playoffs doesn't mean anything I guess. One should be rewarded for playing third fiddle to two HOFers and cherry picking open shots, rather than being the franchises best player on the floor and actually LEADING a team to a win, rather than following LBJ and Wade as they lead the team to a win.

Noah is simply an amazing defender who gets almost twice as many rebounds as Bosh (but if Bosh were on another team he'd be averaging 18 rebounds a game, right?) and Noah also gets more assists, and steals and blocks. but, hey, Bosh has a higher FG%, so Noah is obviously not as good.


Noah> Bosh
Millsap>Bosh

DeRozen and JJ don't even play the same position.

koreancabbage
01-31-2014, 06:52 PM
If JJ can make it I don't see why bosh can't lol

JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2014, 06:58 PM
The thing is, some stats are more conducive to WINNING. There is nothing imaginary about Bosh's efficiency, your argument against that is just as imaginary as the argument you think is being applied against Jefferson. They have differing strengths, that Bosh has already proven capable of carrying a bigger load while Jefferson has NEVER proven capable of playing with such high 2-way efficiency should be reason enough not to doubt the Boshtrich. Based on what they are currently doing, Bosh is better. Remember when you argued in defense of Blake by acknowledging he could have put up 20-10+ if given the minutes, hes still the same player but hes playing on a winning team so his superficial averages are stunted. Per possession efficiency matters as much as per game production.


Define productivity, HOW are you weighing the stats? Do you see any other all combining metric that agrees with you? If not can you elaborate on your personal barometer for "productivity"

Will get to the rest some other day maybe


With Blake, he would have averaged 20/10 last season, if VDN was giving him 36 minutes a game. That is reasonable. With Bosh, he simply wouldn't.

Bosh is also working in a very narrow context. He is not expect to handle the ball. James takes on most of the big defensive assignments. Bosh is a good team defender.

Jefferson is expected to not only handle the bulk of the scoring load, and be the focus of the play and of opposing defenses, but also makes plays for other players.

Bosh is a GREAT basketball player. I know it might not sound like I think so in this conversation, but I do. That said, he works in a very narrow range. Not as much weight is on him, and not as much is expected of him.


For me, the season Paul Millsap is having, or Al Jefferson, is more impressive than what Bosh is doing. Their teams call on them to do more, and though not as efficient in terms of scoring, they are doing everything else better than Bosh, and we all know that the game is not just about scoring. They are being asked to do more, and so are spread thin on the court. Bosh is being asked to fill a much smaller role and it is therefore easier to excel and be efficient in that role.

And I simply can toss aside the rebounding and assist numbers of guys like Millsap and Jefferson, not to mention the steals and blocks. I understand that steals and blocks don't always identify a good defender. Iverson got plenty of steals, but he was a defensive liability. I would never argue that Jefferson's defense gives him an edge, but there is something to be said about his ability to get a steal or 2 and a block or 2 each game while minimizing his fouls. Millsap does the same (though Millsap is a better defender). These are things that Bosh doesn't do as well. They have to carry some weight.

As a two-way player... maybe I'm putting too much weight into that Indy series last year... but Hibbert went nuts on Miami. He doubled his season average in that series, and Bosh had no answer for that. I can't watch the series and come away thinking: Wow, Bosh is a great defender. Duncan was almost .700 on the floor the other night against Miami. The Hawks just beat Miami and Bosh was +5 to Millsaps +10. James was +10 that game, so it's not like Bosh was helping matters. And Millsap was over .600 from the floor that night. Where's Bosh's defence there? Against the Bobcats Jefferson topping his season averages and the lowly Bobcats took the Heat to overtimes. The same can be said for Anthony Davis when the Pelicans face the Heat.

I don't see the best PFs and Cs in the game playing poorly against Bosh. I see them excelling. So whatever the per-possession stats say, they simply don't fit with what I see in the game.


Now, Bosh does score well in these outings, but I wouldn't call him a great two-way player (though that doesn't imply he is a bad one).

there is a reason Bosh is a starter on a championship team. He is amazing. I just don't think he's having an All-star season this year, and I think other players are taking on a big load and getting more done for their respective teams.


As to +/- and other team stats and defensive stats, I simply do not believe that they accurately represent individual players in each instance.

Bartlee23
01-31-2014, 07:03 PM
this is how i feel about joakim noah.

If you had him on your team you wouldn't think that at all or you just haven't seen him play at all.

bholly
01-31-2014, 07:07 PM
I'll try again, but this is the last time.

Chris Bosh IS playing great basketball, doing everything his team is asking of him, playing a vital role on one of the best teams in the league, and making a huge positive difference to their on court performance. To someone who only sees the stat sheet and not the game it looks like he's just hitting open jumpers, but to those who watch (like the coaches) they see elite defense, the perfect offensive partner for LBJ and Wade, leadership (especially on the defensive end), rare hustle for a big man of his calibre, and a willingness to do whatever it takes to win rather than focus on his own accomplishments.
Overall, he produces impressive, winning, and aesthetically appealing basketball that forces coaches to plan and adjust for him.
That's what he DOES do, nothing to do with other seasons or hypotheticals.

Al Jefferson IS playing individual losing basketball on a bad team where it makes no difference to their overall performance whether he's on the court or not. He doesn't play good defense, isn't efficient in any way, and doesn't provide any sort of noticeable leadership or energy or vet presence benefit. Proponents point to counting stats that look impressive out of context, but when put in the context gathered while watching the game they're decidedly unimpressive - he scores a lot because he shoots a lot, is unacceptably inefficient for a center with such a high usage, gets a lot of rebounds because his defensive effort allows him to rarely leave the basket area and still put up big numbers despite rebounding poorly when they're contested, and despite all that time around the rim puts up a pedestrian block rate.
Overall, he does not contribute substantially to the team's overall on-court production and does not provide much trouble for opposing coaches.
Again, that's what he DOES do, nothing to do with other seasons or hypotheticals.



I want to be clear in case it still isn't obvious to you, this has (and never has had) anything to do with hypotheticals or what they could do elsewhere. It's entirely about they way they're playing, on court, this season. Bosh is playing better, more productive basketball that helps his team win; Al is not. If that doesn't show up in the context-free counting stats you're going by then that's fine, but it doesn't make it any less true.

(Don't get me wrong, Al Jeff isn't all that bad, I'm making it sound worse for effect, but he's not very good either - there are many guys who deserve ASG spots ahead of him.)

bholly
01-31-2014, 07:23 PM
Stats don't say everything, but they say a lot.

That said, everybody here seems to be using stats to defend Bosh, they are just using the "he would get these numbers if" stats, AKA imaginary stats.

If I recall correctly (which I do), you're the one who keeps coming back to this song and dance about 'Bosh puts up a high FG%, but it's only because he's with LBJ and Wade'. So who's doing the imagining?


The All-Star team has to have a certain number of points guards and shooting guards. Complaining that a guy like Drummond didn't get selected over JJ or DeRozen is illogical. They don't even play the same position.

If the top ten players in the NBA all play center, you are going to fill the All-NBA first team with centers.

No, that's not the case. Right now the 2 wildcard spots are taken up by a guard and a forward. Nobody is in there just because of their position - any reserve could be swapped out for a person of the other position.
It is not rare at all for one position (guard or big) to take up both wildcard spots - this year the West has 4 reserve guards and 3 reserve bigs (the minimum number allowed, as guards take up both wild cad spots). It isn't a problem. Last year's East had the opposite - only 2 reserve guards, like I'm proposing (and in fact it was even worse - Rondo was replaced by Lopez so only 3 guards actually played: Irving, Wade, Jrue).
In this year's East, Wall and one other guard could happily cover the reserve spots, especially with George and to a lesser extent James and Melo able to shift to SG for a spell. It's an exhibition game, not the finals - there's no concern at all if one of the SGs gets dropped.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 07:30 PM
why do people peg bosh and not noah anyway . bosh is a far better player. and joe johnson damn. bosh is so easily an all star this thread is absurd

Nick O
01-31-2014, 07:31 PM
If you had him on your team you wouldn't think that at all or you just haven't seen him play at all.

yes i have... i never said he wasnt good. if he was on team id like it. but i still want him to wear a bag over his head and stop screaming like ****** just beacuse he makes a layup or gets a rebound.. hes a solid player. i just dont like the way he is on the court.

THE MTL
01-31-2014, 07:35 PM
I think Bosh deserves it he would be averaging 22ppg+ if he was on any other team in the league. With 2 championships on his belt with a possible 3rd, I wonder if he leaves to pursue more individual accolades

Nick O
01-31-2014, 07:43 PM
I think Bosh deserves it he would be averaging 22ppg+ if he was on any other team in the league. With 2 championships on his belt with a possible 3rd, I wonder if he leaves to pursue more individual accolades

hopefully with the raptors would love to see him back.

Chronz
01-31-2014, 07:45 PM
With Blake, he would have averaged 20/10 last season, if VDN was giving him 36 minutes a game. That is reasonable. With Bosh, he simply wouldn't.
Point remains you factored per minute efficiency in one argument, it also applies to Bosh, career low in MPG this year and it has NOTHING to do with decline, his coach simply has a bigger goal in mind than that of a coach desperately trying to make the playoffs.


Bosh is also working in a very narrow context. He is not expect to handle the ball. James takes on most of the big defensive assignments. Bosh is a good team defender.

Not sure what you mean here, James hasn't been as good as Bosh defensively IMO so we may as well ignore this point.


Jefferson is expected to not only handle the bulk of the scoring load, and be the focus of the play and of opposing defenses, but also makes plays for other players.
Yes, which he is doing at a middling rate, why would I emphasize that when the other players stats are more conducive to winning, particularly when Jefferson has never showed that kind of ability nor has he outdone what Bosh has already proven capable of in a similar position.


Bosh is a GREAT basketball player. I know it might not sound like I think so in this conversation, but I do. That said, he works in a very narrow range. Not as much weight is on him, and not as much is expected of him.
Im not seeing the part where Im suppose to care, hes STILL outproducing him in this role and has already proven to greatly outproduce him in the same position, why am I going to ignore the huge disparity in wins here?



For me, the season Paul Millsap is having, or Al Jefferson, is more impressive than what Bosh is doing. Their teams call on them to do more, and though not as efficient in terms of scoring, they are doing everything else better than Bosh, and we all know that the game is not just about scoring. They are being asked to do more, and so are spread thin on the court. Bosh is being asked to fill a much smaller role and it is therefore easier to excel and be efficient in that role.
Milsap is a better argument IMO but focusing on Al Jefferson, while it might be close, I dont see what makes it more impressive. You say its easier for him to thrive but the reality is the same argument holds true for guys who get to hog the ball/possessions to their hearts content. Its easier to put up superficial averages on bad/mediocre teams where not much is expected of you, but to maximize your touches isn't as easy as you think. There is no guarantee that a guy like Jefferson could replicate this level of efficiency when hes never been able to even approach it in his career. He could easily be a player whos efficiency ceiling is best utilized on mediocre teams. Whereas Bosh has already proven to maintain this efficiency on both bad and championship teams alike.


And I simply can toss aside the rebounding and assist numbers of guys like Millsap and Jefferson, not to mention the steals and blocks. Nobody is asking you to, but efficiency/usage combo is more important than you think. Those other stats dont make up for the chasm in efficiency between Jefferson and Bosh. Particularly when you consider that Bosh is the better defender/intangibles guy.


As a two-way player... maybe I'm putting too much weight into that Indy series last year... but Hibbert went nuts on Miami.
Hes weak 1 on 1 against brutes, but team defense is so much more important that focusing on the influence against 1 player as opposed to the opposing team doesn't do much for me. Hibbert is a mismatch for him as it is, but its compounded by their entire defensive scheme being built on trapping and rotating. Bosh is integral to that help scheme (so much that Spo calls him an elite defender in this system), his hedging very KG like in that regard, his man may score more, but TEAM D is of the utmost importance. Speaking of KG, Doc used to put James Posey on Bosh and allow KG to suffocate with his help and recovery ability, just to highlight how its not just about singular matchups in this heavy zone era.

That said, Im relying on past reputation because the Heat havent been very good defensively this year, that is unless, Bosh is out on the court. Whereas Charlotte seemingly defends at a higher level without Jefferson.



Now, Bosh does score well in these outings, but I wouldn't call him a great two-way player (though that doesn't imply he is a bad one).
LOL so is Duncan a bad defender because Bosh outplayed him in the game you referenced? Your thinking too old school if you think bigman defense is captured by how you defend against a single player rather than how you influence your team. Franky, Ive found that some of the best individual defenders are so because they refuse to leave their man to help their teammates, or simply lack the knowledge/athleticism to help and recover. Bargnani comes mind, hes a better 1 on 1 defender than Bosh, but hes not close to him as an overall defender.


there is a reason Bosh is a starter on a championship team. He is amazing. I just don't think he's having an All-star season this year, and I think other players are taking on a big load and getting more done for their respective teams.
Based on what tho? Statistically this season is no different/worse than the others, if hes been an all-star in the past, why wouldn't he be now?


As to +/- and other team stats and defensive stats, I simply do not believe that they accurately represent individual players in each instance.
You dont need +/- stats to know how much a liability Jefferson is, hes said so himself. Nobody praises his defense the way Bosh has received praise (both for Team USA and Miami). And you can ignore +/-, but those who work for the NBA know they can be informative given large samples.

You would have a great point if Jefferson had these giant variations in his +/-, but Im fairly certain they have pegged him as a bad defender for years now, at some point, you just gotta face reality and realize its hard to improve a defensive system with a slow footed player who cant protect the rim while providing help.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 07:48 PM
Point remains you factored per minute efficiency in one argument, it also applies to Bosh, career low in MPG this year and it has NOTHING to do with decline, his coach simply has a bigger goal in mind than that of a coach desperately trying to make the playoffs.


Not sure what you mean here, James hasn't been as good as Bosh defensively IMO so we may as well ignore this point.


Yes, which he is doing at a middling rate, why would I emphasize that when the other players stats are more conducive to winning, particularly when Jefferson has never showed that kind of ability nor has he outdone what Bosh has already proven capable of in a similar position.


Im not seeing the part where Im suppose to care, hes STILL outproducing him in this role and has already proven to greatly outproduce him in the same position, why am I going to ignore the huge disparity in wins here?



Milsap is a better argument IMO but focusing on Al Jefferson, while it might be close, I dont see what makes it more impressive. You say its easier for him to thrive but the reality is the same argument holds true for guys who get to hog the ball/possessions to their hearts content. Its easier to put up superficial averages on bad/mediocre teams where not much is expected of you, but to maximize your touches isn't as easy as you think. There is no guarantee that a guy like Jefferson could replicate this level of efficiency when hes never been able to even approach it in his career. He could easily be a player whos efficiency ceiling is best utilized on mediocre teams. Whereas Bosh has already proven to maintain this efficiency on both bad and championship teams alike.

Nobody is asking you to, but efficiency/usage combo is more important than you think. Those other stats dont make up for the chasm in efficiency between Jefferson and Bosh. Particularly when you consider that Bosh is the better defender/intangibles guy.


Hes weak 1 on 1 against brutes, but team defense is so much more important that focusing on the influence against 1 player as opposed to the opposing team doesn't do much for me. Hibbert is a mismatch for him as it is, but its compounded by their entire defensive scheme being built on trapping and rotating. Bosh is integral to that help scheme (so much that Spo calls him an elite defender in this system), his hedging very KG like in that regard, his man may score more, but TEAM D is of the utmost importance. Speaking of KG, Doc used to put James Posey on Bosh and allow KG to suffocate with his help and recovery ability, just to highlight how its not just about singular matchups in this heavy zone era.

That said, Im relying on past reputation because the Heat havent been very good defensively this year, that is unless, Bosh is out on the court. Whereas Charlotte seemingly defends at a higher level without Jefferson.



LOL so is Duncan a bad defender because Bosh outplayed him in the game you referenced? Your thinking too old school if you think bigman defense is captured by how you defend against a single player rather than how you influence your team. Franky, Ive found that some of the best individual defenders are so because they refuse to leave their man to help their teammates, or simply lack the knowledge/athleticism to help and recover. Bargnani comes mind, hes a better 1 on 1 defender than Bosh, but hes not close to him as an overall defender.


Based on what tho? Statistically this season is no different/worse than the others, if hes been an all-star in the past, why wouldn't he be now?


You dont need +/- stats to know how much a liability Jefferson is, hes said so himself. Nobody praises his defense the way Bosh has received praise (both for Team USA and Miami). And you can ignore +/-, but those who work for the NBA know they can be informative given large samples.

You would have a great point if Jefferson had these giant variations in his +/-, but Im fairly certain they have pegged him as a bad defender for years now, at some point, you just gotta face reality and realize its hard to improve a defensive system with a slow footed player who cant protect the rim while providing help.

man this guy just went in^ . solid points tho

Bartlee23
01-31-2014, 07:58 PM
yes i have... i never said he wasnt good. if he was on team id like it. but i still want him to wear a bag over his head and stop screaming like ****** just beacuse he makes a layup or gets a rebound.. hes a solid player. i just dont like the way he is on the court.

That's a fair statement and only your opinion. This is basketball, not a beauty contest. His hustle and love of the game make him a true competitor and an asset to any team he's on. Not many players nowadays dive on the floor for the ball and give 100% every game no matter who they are playing. Joakim is one and is why he's recognized as an all-star.

Nick O
01-31-2014, 08:04 PM
That's a fair statement and only your opinion. This is basketball, not a beauty contest. His hustle and love of the game make him a true competitor and an asset to any team he's on. Not many players nowadays dive on the floor for the ball and give 100% every game no matter who they are playing. Joakim is one and is why he's recognized as an all-star.

okay. but hes not better than bosh so im not sure why a thread was made about bosh. and no thats not just MY oppinion. bosh a superior player. Noah works hard. bosh is more talented, skilled, efficient has better stats has the pedigree hes just better. i know they are complete opposite style of player. but how can you make a case for noah to be an all star and say bosh shouldnt. i think they both should be. just saying. AND it wouldnt hurt for him to stop screaming all the time....also just saying

Pacerlive
01-31-2014, 10:29 PM
The thing is, some stats are more conducive to WINNING. There is nothing imaginary about Bosh's efficiency, your argument against that is just as imaginary as the argument you think is being applied against Jefferson. They have differing strengths, that Bosh has already proven capable of carrying a bigger load while Jefferson has NEVER proven capable of playing with such high 2-way efficiency should be reason enough not to doubt the Boshtrich. Based on what they are currently doing, Bosh is better. Remember when you argued in defense of Blake by acknowledging he could have put up 20-10+ if given the minutes, hes still the same player but hes playing on a winning team so his superficial averages are stunted. Per possession efficiency matters as much as per game production.


Define productivity, HOW are you weighing the stats? Do you see any other all combining metric that agrees with you? If not can you elaborate on your personal barometer for "productivity"

Will get to the rest some other day maybe

I am not that invested in this argument but I think a solid argument could be made for Al Jefferson over Chris Bosh.

For one efficiency can be tied to the supporting cast and Chris Bosh is one of those players now that relies heavily on other players to set him up. Now it is valuable but I wouldn't make it as valuable as say a guy who is less efficient based on his supporting cast due to being assisted much less. The question to me is whose fault is it? Al Jefferson or the supporting cast/system? This is also how I look at Roy's offensive numbers compared to guys like Tyson Chandler and the pnr efficiency he has. It is valuable but is it carrying his team? The obvious answer is no hence why his efficiency is higher. As a Pacer fan I saw this first hand with Paul George efficiency last year compared to two years ago.

The other argument I would make is that Al is looking more like a two way player than he ever has. I mean the Bobcats were dead last in defensive efficiency last year without him and now they are 7th. I think it's more logical to think he was apart of that than not.

Jamiecballer
01-31-2014, 10:41 PM
I am not that invested in this argument but I think a solid argument could be made for Al Jefferson over Chris Bosh.

For one efficiency can be tied to the supporting cast and Chris Bosh is one of those players now that relies heavily on other players to set him up. Now it is valuable but I wouldn't make it as valuable as say a guy who is less efficient based on his supporting cast due to being assisted much less. The question to me is whose fault is it? Al Jefferson or the supporting cast/system? This is also how I look at Roy's offensive numbers compared to guys like Tyson Chandler and the pnr efficiency he has. It is valuable but is it carrying his team? The obvious answer is no hence why his efficiency is higher. As a Pacer fan I saw this first hand with Paul George efficiency last year compared to two years ago.

The other argument I would make is that Al is looking more like a two way player than he ever has. I mean the Bobcats were dead last in defensive efficiency last year without him and now they are 7th. I think it's more logical to think he was apart of that than not.

Jefferson was tied for 88th out of 113 qualified players in points per shot in 2011-12

Jefferson was tied for 93rd out of 123 qualified players in points per shot in 2012-13

Jefferson was tied for 110th out of 126 qualified players in points per shot in 2013-14

let's face it - it doesn't matter who his teammates are, he's the worst 20 points per game in basketball.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-31-2014, 10:47 PM
If we are complaining about anyone making it, it should be Noah.

Jamiecballer
01-31-2014, 10:52 PM
If we are complaining about anyone making it, it should be Noah.

this should be interesting. go on please.

i mean, i hate people that look like 12 year old french girls as much as the next guy but he is quite deserving imo.

Pacerlive
01-31-2014, 11:39 PM
Jefferson was tied for 88th out of 113 qualified players in points per shot in 2011-12

Jefferson was tied for 93rd out of 123 qualified players in points per shot in 2011-12

Jefferson was tied for 110th out of 126 qualified players in points per shot in 2011-12

let's face it - it doesn't matter who his teammates are, he's the worst 20 points per game in basketball.

I think your years are off but either way you can look at it like this.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/scoringEfficiency/year/2012/position/centers

Chris Bosh is efficient but put him on a team under a system less conducive of getting assisted like the Bobcats and I have a hard time believing he would be as efficient. I am not even sure he goes back to his Raptors days with Calderon.

The point of the post is that Al Jefferson is looked at as a poor defender because of his past. I try to not judge current all star selections based on the past but rather try to factor in system, role and current production based on that role. Chris Bosh role on perimeter defense is really important and his role on interior defense suffers as a result.

Chronz
01-31-2014, 11:44 PM
Cant elaborate right now but the efficiency argument boils down to this fact, Bosh's efficiency was the same before miami, hes already proven capable of bigger outburst if allowed to chuck. Jefferson however has NEVER in ANY ROLE been able to match Boshs efficiency.

Jamiecballer
01-31-2014, 11:49 PM
I think your years are off but either way you can look at it like this.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/scoringEfficiency/year/2012/position/centers

Chris Bosh is efficient but put him on a team under a system less conducive of getting assisted like the Bobcats and I have a hard time believing he would be as efficient. I am not even sure he goes back to his Raptors days with Calderon.

The point of the post is that Al Jefferson is looked at as a poor defender because of his past. I try to not judge current all star selections based on the past but rather try to factor in system, role and current production based on that role. Chris Bosh role on perimeter defense is really important and his role on interior defense suffers as a result.
i have no idea what this means. Bosh had the same level of efficiency as a Raptor as he does now. what am i missing.

Nick O
02-01-2014, 01:55 AM
this should be interesting. go on please.

i mean, i hate people that look like 12 year old french girls as much as the next guy but he is quite deserving imo.

i love this..... so much .... thank you.... but honestly he is deserving this year.. but its only because of the weakness. if lopez wasnt hurt or chandler wasnt having injury problems too noah wouldnt have even been a thought to be an all star. but with whats remaining. ya. he was probably the best choice.

Nick O
02-01-2014, 01:56 AM
i have no idea what this means. Bosh had the same level of efficiency as a Raptor as he does now. what am i missing.

this. i dont remember how he finished the season. but i remember him going into the all star break in his final season. ranked 3rd in both efficiency and double doubles in the nba.

c.c.
02-01-2014, 03:02 AM
I don't remember asking how good a rebound Bosh was in Toronto.


Look. Bosh is a good play. Jefferson is having a better season. Outside of Bosh's FG%, there is nothing concrete that Bosh is dong better than Jefferson THIS year.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is a better rebounder.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is a better passer.

Jefferosn, THIS YEAR, is getting more assists.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, is getting more rebounds.

Jefferson THIS YERA, is getting more steals.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, us getting more blocks.

Jefferson THIS YEAR, gets fewer fouls per steals/blocks.

Jefferson, THIS YEAR, gets fewer turnovers per assist.


What else does that guy have to do? Sign with a team that has two HOFers?

Bosh, THIS YEAR, is playing with LBJ and Wade and has a higher FG%, but also gets more open shots because of who he plays with, and despite having FAR superior talent around him, has fewer assists.


Dude after reading all your posts, you are right! Everyone is rating Bosh on what he "could" do or did verses what he's actually doing.

Drummond#1
02-01-2014, 03:13 AM
Rupaul hasn't deserved an all star nod since he was with the raptors... And now I can say they are better without him. I would take Lowry or Demar over Jurrasic Park any day of the week.

Drummond#1
02-01-2014, 03:27 AM
Joe Johnson and Bosh may be the worst two reserve picks on the same all star team ever. The East is weak but others are far more deserving. This isn't the MVP race and based on wins or career accolades. Johnson isn't Kobe and Bosh isn't Shaquille, my point being that neither has contributed enough to the NBA to get an automatic spot. Stephenson, Al Jefferson, Afflalo, Dre Drummond, Kyle Lowry. Hell I would take Jeff Teague or Tristan Thompson over these two bozos.

Nick O
02-01-2014, 03:47 AM
Joe Johnson and Bosh may be the worst two reserve picks on the same all star team ever. The East is weak but others are far more deserving. This isn't the MVP race and based on wins or career accolades. Johnson isn't Kobe and Bosh isn't Shaquille, my point being that neither has contributed enough to the NBA to get an automatic spot. Stephenson, Al Jefferson, Afflalo, Dre Drummond, Kyle Lowry. Hell I would take Jeff Teague or Tristan Thompson over these two bozos.

lool youre high as **** sir.

Bartlee23
02-01-2014, 10:32 AM
okay. but hes not better than bosh so im not sure why a thread was made about bosh. and no thats not just MY oppinion. bosh a superior player. Noah works hard. bosh is more talented, skilled, efficient has better stats has the pedigree hes just better. i know they are complete opposite style of player. but how can you make a case for noah to be an all star and say bosh shouldnt. i think they both should be. just saying. AND it wouldnt hurt for him to stop screaming all the time....also just saying

Where did I say Bosh shouldn't be an all-star??? I was just defending Noah. Your claim was you " don't like the way he looks" and the way he " screams all the time when he gets a rebound or a lay-up " which has nothing to do with being an all-star. His game proves it and that's why any team would love to have him.

Bartlee23
02-01-2014, 10:43 AM
i love this..... so much .... thank you.... but honestly he is deserving this year.. but its only because of the weakness. if lopez wasnt hurt or chandler wasnt having injury problems too noah wouldnt have even been a thought to be an all star. but with whats remaining. ya. he was probably the best choice.

You are really into the looks thing. You must be a model or something ???? What were the reasons why Lopez and Chandler didn't make it last year I can't remember? If Lopez were healthy this year he probably would have taken Johnson's spot and Chandler has not been the same since coming to New York so he would have had to put up phenominal numbers to look better than Noah to the coaches who actually know what they are talking about. How many centers out there can rebound and pass as well as Noah as well as contribute in scoring without having any plays for them?

koreancabbage
02-01-2014, 10:47 AM
Joe Johnson and Bosh may be the worst two reserve picks on the same all star team ever. The East is weak but others are far more deserving. This isn't the MVP race and based on wins or career accolades. Johnson isn't Kobe and Bosh isn't Shaquille, my point being that neither has contributed enough to the NBA to get an automatic spot. Stephenson, Al Jefferson, Afflalo, Dre Drummond, Kyle Lowry. Hell I would take Jeff Teague or Tristan Thompson over these two bozos.

Bosh isn't as bad as Joe Johnson. I still think Bosh is a better player than all those players #realtalk. and the coaches know it.

Do you think coaches would go into battle with the players mentioned. HELL NO. only stats help those player causes but lets be real, the coaches coaching the All-star team want to win. and Bosh is a better two way player than all those players at the forward position.

Bartlee23
02-01-2014, 10:49 AM
If we are complaining about anyone making it, it should be Noah.

If you're mad Lowry didn't make it I totally understand. He is a great player and definitely deserving of being on the roster. If you are trying to to find a player that may not deserve it Noah is not the player. My suggestion is you watch him play if you haven't and look and see what he actually does for the team.

If anyone Johnson is the player that Lowry could replace but you have DeRozan going already and the chances of two players going was slim to none.

Raps08-09 Champ
02-01-2014, 10:59 AM
this should be interesting. go on please.

i mean, i hate people that look like 12 year old french girls as much as the next guy but he is quite deserving imo.

You need 3 all star F as reserve and since only 3 made it, you have to replace 1 of the forwards if you want Jefferson to get in. I'd replace Noah over Bosh/Hibbert if we want to put Jefferson in.

I'd pick Noah over Jefferson but he should be complaining about Noah if he wants Jefferson in.

Raps08-09 Champ
02-01-2014, 11:00 AM
If you're mad Lowry didn't make it I totally understand. He is a great player and definitely deserving of being on the roster. If you are trying to to find a player that may not deserve it Noah is not the player. My suggestion is you watch him play if you haven't and look and see what he actually does for the team.

If anyone Johnson is the player that Lowry could replace but you have DeRozan going already and the chances of two players going was slim to none.

Lowry shold've made it over JJ, but that's not what this thread is about so not really gonna talk about that.

He wants Al Jefferson in and he'd need to replace a big man in order to do that since only 3 forwards made it.

2-ONE-5
02-01-2014, 11:34 AM
Big Al sent his regard to the coaches with that performance last night. Whens the last time Bosh had a game even close to that?

Pacerlive
02-01-2014, 11:43 AM
Cant elaborate right now but the efficiency argument boils down to this fact, Bosh's efficiency was the same before miami, hes already proven capable of bigger outburst if allowed to chuck. Jefferson however has NEVER in ANY ROLE been able to match Boshs efficiency.
This is true but saying he could be efficient if he wasn't on the Heat is going off of past years long gone and isn't a reflection of this years production and role.

Also for the most part Als main role has always been really the same all the way up to Boston. I don't fault him for that but I also don't think it's as clear as Bosh is WAY more efficient overall. If Bosh is assisted say 50% instead of 80% then I think it's logical that he would be less efficient. If Al was assisted 80% and not the focus of the defense then I think his efficiency goes way up. If this vote encompassed the previous 5 years then it's easy to say that Bosh should have it but it's about this year. I have a lot less respect for guys who all star selections are the major result of their teammates especially when you consider the Heat already have 2.

Defensively Al seems to have the past label on him which to me clouds the argument just as much as Bosh role on Heat defense. A major reason why the Heat give up a high percentage of threes is because Bosh requires a lot of help when playing so much on the perimeter. This exposes guys like Battier to cover Boshs man and makes Battier look like a poor defender when he isn't. Bosh is an execellent help defender on perimeter but I think their entire system and it's flaws are designed around Bosh. That is very telling to me and also why I give him less credit than most for his perimeter defense.

Jamiecballer
02-01-2014, 12:51 PM
Big Al sent his regard to the coaches with that performance last night. Whens the last time Bosh had a game even close to that?
he had a great game on the glass for sure.

Nick O
02-01-2014, 01:37 PM
Where did I say Bosh shouldn't be an all-star??? I was just defending Noah. Your claim was you " don't like the way he looks" and the way he " screams all the time when he gets a rebound or a lay-up " which has nothing to do with being an all-star. His game proves it and that's why any team would love to have him.

i never said you specifically. but people who think bosh shouldnt be an all star when noah is , is what i think is a joke when bosh is clearly superior. they both should be... but bosh is better so why a thread about him?

nycericanguy
02-01-2014, 02:55 PM
I think Bosh is great, don't get me wrong, but I hate this "he'd put up better numbers if he wasn't playing behind LBJ and Wade" argument. Is he efficient? YES! Does he get WAY more open shots than most PF because defenses had to focus on LBJ and Wade? YES! His FG% is as much because he gets more open looks playing along side HOFers. Bosh is great, but let's not pretend his FG% would be where it is if he was playing in Charlotte.

As to his rebounding... it is frankly pathetic. 6.7 a game? Michael Carter-Williams is a rookie POINT GUARD and he's only averaging 1 less rebound per game than Bosh. Drummond pretty much doubled Bosh's rebounding number, and Jefferson outscores, outrebounds and out passes Bosh.


Let's talk defence. Let's talk play making. Let's talk rebounding? Does Bosh do ANY of these things at an All-Star level? Aside from being the guy that can hit an open jumper, what does Bosh do? 6.7 rebounds is embarrassing for a starting PF or C. And more than 40 players in the league are scoring more than Bosh this season. 37 players have a higher FG%. Bosh isn't even in the top 50 for rebounding. THE TOP 50! That is pathetic! That is BAD numbers.

Omer ASik gets 18 minutes a game and he has a higher rebounding average than Bosh. Lance Stephenson is a SHOOTING guard and he outrebounds Bosh. LeBron James, the SMALL FORWARD for Miami is having his WORST rebounding season since his rookie year and he is STILL out rebounding Bosh.


The +9.9 you are talking about... that is a TEAM statistic.... not a player statistic. You send him to Charlotte in place of Jefferson, and you think Charlotte would be winning more games?

Bosh used to be a 20/10 player, now he is a role player.

When did less than 17 points and 6.7 rebounds at C or PF equate All-Star numbers?

dude he's only playing 31mpg and LBJ gobbles up a lot of rebounds.

PER 36 he's giving MIA almost 20 & 8. His rebounding is only slightly down from his career norm. And consider he's used as a stretch 4/5 now so he's not around the basket as much as he used to be. Hence his offensive RPG have gone down dramatically since going to MIA. Obviously if you're spending a lot of time 20-24feet out you're not going to get many offensive rebounds anymore.

He's absolutely an all star and i'd take him any day of the week over Al.

NoahH
02-01-2014, 03:12 PM
Without Bosh the Heat (a) would not have won 2 rings and (b) would not have the record they have now.

Bosh does a lot the box score doesn't show.

Nick O
02-01-2014, 03:33 PM
dude he's only playing 31mpg and LBJ gobbles up a lot of rebounds.

PER 36 he's giving MIA almost 20 & 8. His rebounding is only slightly down from his career norm. And consider he's used as a stretch 4/5 now so he's not around the basket as much as he used to be. Hence his offensive RPG have gone down dramatically since going to MIA. Obviously if you're spending a lot of time 20-24feet out you're not going to get many offensive rebounds anymore.

He's absolutely an all star and i'd take him any day of the week over Al.

bingooo

Chronz
02-01-2014, 05:27 PM
This is true but saying he could be efficient if he wasn't on the Heat is going off of past years long gone and isn't a reflection of this years production and role.
Thing is, its better to have that known talent than the unknown of efficiency from someone like Jefferson, who has never been able to replicate what even current Bosh is putting up. And while I would agree that its unlikely Bosh is the same threat he used to be, hes not drastically different from what he was when he first joined Miami, hes practically putting up identical offensive numbers so you would really have to go to the extreme ends of the usage-efficiency spectrum to get to the depths of Al Jefferson. As a rule of thumb, I try to go with more realistic projections and recent history.




Also for the most part Als main role has always been really the same all the way up to Boston. I don't fault him for that but I also don't think it's as clear as Bosh is WAY more efficient overall. If Bosh is assisted say 50% instead of 80% then I think it's logical that he would be less efficient. If Al was assisted 80% and not the focus of the defense then I think his efficiency goes way up. If this vote encompassed the previous 5 years then it's easy to say that Bosh should have it but it's about this year. I have a lot less respect for guys who all star selections are the major result of their teammates especially when you consider the Heat already have 2.

Heres what you guys aren't getting, you projecting what Bosh wouldn't be able to do in another role is no different than projecting what Jefferson could theoretically do in Bosh's current situation. Its an argument that works both ways, the only difference is that the methods we have for attempting to project skill curves favor Bosh.

Besides, that Bosh has the versatility to alter his game and remain more efficient than Al Jefferson in ANY role is a strength for me, it tells me he can thrive in various systems. Jefferson doesn't seem have the game that would lend itself to change or being assisted on whatever numbers your focusing on, his catch and shoot game isn't nearly as good as Bosh's and he lacks the same foot speed to make you pay from the perimeter off those subtle fakes.

When Jefferson joined the Jazz, he was joining a team that had been running the best flex offense in the league for years(decades), he was essentially replacing the role Boozer had on the team (both 20-10 bigs IIRC). But Boozer at his best in their system was getting assisted on 75% of his jumpers and 74% of his inside attempts (much closer to Bosh now), around 70% for both throughout his tenure, only less effectively. (Jefferson's assisted% in Minnesota peaked at 60-50 outside-inside, and averaged around 53-45 tenure). When Jefferson took over Boozer role his assisted% did improve but only on his jumpers, his inside % stagnated regardless. Point being, we have seen him in different environments and never has Jefferson played worse than he has in this newly found environment.

It seems like some people have this misguided notion that isolation scoring completely exonerates any level of inefficiency. What is your breaking point here? Can a guy shoot 35% and still be considered the better offensive player in your book?



Defensively Al seems to have the past label on him which to me clouds the argument just as much as Bosh role on Heat defense. A major reason why the Heat give up a high percentage of threes is because Bosh requires a lot of help when playing so much on the perimeter. This exposes guys like Battier to cover Boshs man and makes Battier look like a poor defender when he isn't. Bosh is an execellent help defender on perimeter but I think their entire system and it's flaws are designed around Bosh. That is very telling to me and also why I give him less credit than most for his perimeter defense.
Possibly, but they have designed a championship caliber defense with this player in mind and his presence has drastically helped them over the years on that end, you can focus on any singular player that looks bad as a result, but so long as the unit is effective, your basically nitpicking at this point. Its definitely FAR more impressive than consistently rating as a poor defender who negatively influences his teams defense. Especially when said player readily admits hes a poor defender.

Chronz
02-01-2014, 05:33 PM
I think part of the reason Jefferson's assisted% inside is so consistently poor is because hes not much of a finisher and lesser shooter. Like when Bosh was in Toronto, he would use the head fake and slash to the rim, his teammate would get an assist but its the kind thats available thanks to Bosh's unique set of skills. I cant imagine Bosh doing as poorly (relatively speaking here) as Jefferson has in Charlotte right now. Nor can I imagine Jefferson being as effective and finally jumping that assist% up.

mightybosstone
02-01-2014, 06:03 PM
They're pretty neck and neck, but Bosh is a better player. Jefferson's per game numbers might look better, but that's mainly because there's more volume to what he does. All things equal, Bosh is the player you'd much rather have. Bosh is far from the worst selection. He was one of my three reserve locks in the East :shrug:

This. Jefferson plays a bigger role for Charlotte, but Bosh is clearly the better basketball player and most advanced numbers back that up. It's that debate of whether a No. 2 on a contender deserves to be an All-Star over a No. 1 for a bad or mediocre team. In this case, I'd take Bosh, but I wouldn't question someone's intelligence or credibility if they'd prefer Jefferson.

However, on a level playing field, I think most people realize Bosh would put up numbers every bit as good, if not better, for Charlotte than Jefferson does.

2-ONE-5
02-01-2014, 07:26 PM
i never said you specifically. but people who think bosh shouldnt be an all star when noah is , is what i think is a joke when bosh is clearly superior. they both should be... but bosh is better so why a thread about him?

not sure Bosh is better than Noah but even if you think he is that doesnt mean Bosh is deserving to be an all star. players arent picked based on whose better its about who is having the better season and there are a good amount of players even in the east having better seasons than Bosh

2-ONE-5
02-01-2014, 07:28 PM
Without Bosh the Heat (a) would not have won 2 rings and (b) would not have the record they have now.

Bosh does a lot the box score doesn't show.

that doesnt make him an all star

Nick O
02-01-2014, 07:32 PM
not sure Bosh is better than Noah but even if you think he is that doesnt mean Bosh is deserving to be an all star. players are picked based on whose better its about who is having the better season and there are a good amount of players even in the east having better seasons than Bosh

no theyre arent? how is noah better? hes putting up what? 11 and 11? for a .500 team. do people realize Bosh put up 24 and 11 for a .500 team as well. . so no noah isnt better in general. and as for this year still no. bosh does more for his team than noah does. bosh is much better player in every aspect except pretty much for rebounding. but back when bosh was in the same situation he rebounded just as well.

Nick O
02-01-2014, 07:32 PM
that doesnt make him an all star

yes. yes it does

bholly
02-01-2014, 07:47 PM
not sure Bosh is better than Noah but even if you think he is that doesnt mean Bosh is deserving to be an all star. players arent picked based on whose better its about who is having the better season and there are a good amount of players even in the east having better seasons than Bosh

Um, it's about whoever the coaches pick based on whatever criteria they think are important. That might be how you'd pick, but it doesn't mean they have to pick that way.

Jamiecballer
02-01-2014, 07:52 PM
not sure Bosh is better than Noah but even if you think he is that doesnt mean Bosh is deserving to be an all star. players arent picked based on whose better its about who is having the better season and there are a good amount of players even in the east having better seasons than Bosh

it's pretty simple in my eyes. if you've shown in the past you are an undeniable all-star and you sacrifice that in pursuit of championships you are given the benefit of the doubt as long as you are extremely efficient within your role.

if however, you are playing a great 3rd banana but haven't proven in your past that you can be first banana and maintain that level of efficiency than no benefit of the doubt is given.

fair or unfair, i think that's just the way it is.

2-ONE-5
02-01-2014, 08:00 PM
no theyre arent? how is noah better? hes putting up what? 11 and 11? for a .500 team. do people realize Bosh put up 24 and 11 for a .500 team as well. . so no noah isnt better in general. and as for this year still no. bosh does more for his team than noah does. bosh is much better player in every aspect except pretty much for rebounding. but back when bosh was in the same situation he rebounded just as well.

bosh is a better scorer but i dont know how u can think he is better at anything else.

2-ONE-5
02-01-2014, 08:01 PM
it's pretty simple in my eyes. if you've shown in the past you are an undeniable all-star and you sacrifice that in pursuit of championships you are given the benefit of the doubt as long as you are extremely efficient within your role.

if you are playing a great 3rd banana but haven't proven in your past that you can be first banana and maintain that level of efficiency than no benefit of the doubt is given.

fair or unfair, i think that's just the way it is.

thats fine and all when the heat have the best record and are dominating like past years but thats not the case this year. I mean this is Bosh's worst season with them isnt it? Pacers have 3 guys that are deserving this year if anyone got 3 it should have been them

Jamiecballer
02-01-2014, 08:09 PM
thats fine and all when the heat have the best record and are dominating like past years but thats not the case this year. I mean this is Bosh's worst season with them isnt it? Pacers have 3 guys that are deserving this year if anyone got 3 it should have been them

so your argument is Stephenson over Bosh, is that right?

and no, it's not his worst. his play this year is almost identical to years 1 and 3 with the heat. the only difference is small reduction in minutes.

bholly
02-01-2014, 08:32 PM
thats fine and all when the heat have the best record and are dominating like past years but thats not the case this year. I mean this is Bosh's worst season with them isnt it? Pacers have 3 guys that are deserving this year if anyone got 3 it should have been them

This is probably Bosh's best season with them, and they're a game ahead of where they were after the same number of games last season. So no to most of what you just said.

2-ONE-5
02-01-2014, 08:47 PM
so your argument is Stephenson over Bosh, is that right?

and no, it's not his worst. his play this year is almost identical to years 1 and 3 with the heat. the only difference is small reduction in minutes.

16/6 isnt all star worthy i dont acer if he took a back seat or not. Stephenson is deserving and has a case over a few guys but you are rewarding Bosh for the role he accepted on a dominant team and im saying that team is now Indy for the reg season and if anyone deserves 3 its them

2-ONE-5
02-01-2014, 08:48 PM
This is probably Bosh's best season with them, and they're a game ahead of where they were after the same number of games last season. So no to most of what you just said.

but their not the best right now its not like the past 3 years when there was a nice gap between the heat and the rest.

bholly
02-01-2014, 09:12 PM
So? Selection for the ASG is an individual accolade. Record comes into it because it's an indicator of individual play, but it's nothing close to 'Indy have been better so they should get more players' or whatever you're suggesting. I like Stephenson too, and would've loved if he was an All-Star, but a three game margin between the teams should mean very very little when comparing them.

Jamiecballer
02-01-2014, 09:28 PM
This is probably Bosh's best season with them, and they're a game ahead of where they were after the same number of games last season. So no to most of what you just said.

no, i agree with him that they do not look near as impressive so far this year, but i agree that Bosh's play is the same as always.

Jamiecballer
02-01-2014, 09:35 PM
16/6 isnt all star worthy i dont acer if he took a back seat or not. Stephenson is deserving and has a case over a few guys but you are rewarding Bosh for the role he accepted on a dominant team and im saying that team is now Indy for the reg season and if anyone deserves 3 its them

i find your logic here a little strange.

they are clearly letting their best players rest more than usual this year.

if you adjusted Bosh's numbers to match the minutes Stephenson is getting it's 19.5/7.7 and by the way it's about the most efficient 20 points in the game.

does that mean nothing to you? Stephenson's scoring efficiency is middle of the pack so Bosh's raw scoring numbers should count for more unless you are being unreasonable.

for the record so i'm not labeled bias Lance Stephenson definitely should be on the team but your issue should be with Wall/Irving/Johnson

Pacerlive
02-01-2014, 09:38 PM
So? Selection for the ASG is an individual accolade. Record comes into it because it's an indicator of individual play, but it's nothing close to 'Indy have been better so they should get more players' or whatever you're suggesting. I like Stephenson too, and would've loved if he was an All-Star, and a three game margin between the teams should mean very very little when comparing them.
Welp. Lets look at it.

Lance Stephenson defenese is better than Chris Bosh per synergy.
Lance Stephenson is a better rebounder than Chris Bosh even though he is a sg.
Lance Stephenson is way better at passing and runs the second team on the Pacers.
Lance Stephenson has the most triple doubles in the league right now this year.

Despite record you could make a strong argument for Stephenson either way but a better record in tight comparions I could see that tilting the scales in favor of one or the other but regardless David West was probably right. Coaches are petty and probably didn't like his extra on court stuff he did.

Jamiecballer
02-01-2014, 09:45 PM
Welp. Lets look at it.

Lance Stephenson defenese is better than Chris Bosh per synergy.
Lance Stephenson is a better rebounder than Chris Bosh even though he is a sg.
Lance Stephenson is way better at passing and runs the second team on the Pacers.
Lance Stephenson has the most triple doubles in the league right now this year.

Despite record you could make a strong argument for Stephenson either way but a better record in tight comparions I could see that tilting the scales in favor of one or the other but regardless David West was probably right. Coaches are petty and probably didn't like his extra on court stuff he did.

don't agree with any of those claims, except the triple double one which is undeniable fact.

but if you are going to go point for point don't forget middle of the road efficiency compared to one of the best in the game.

Chronz
02-01-2014, 10:13 PM
This. Jefferson plays a bigger role for Charlotte, but Bosh is clearly the better basketball player and most advanced numbers back that up. It's that debate of whether a No. 2 on a contender deserves to be an All-Star over a No. 1 for a bad or mediocre team. In this case, I'd take Bosh, but I wouldn't question someone's intelligence or credibility if they'd prefer Jefferson.

However, on a level playing field, I think most people realize Bosh would put up numbers every bit as good, if not better, for Charlotte than Jefferson does.

My thing is, why not ask the inverse from Jefferson? Can Jefferson put numbers every bit as good for a championship team? Since we should be prioritizing winning over losing. I dont see Jefferson playing with such high 2-way efficiency in Bosh's current role. We have however, already seen Bosh put up much stronger #'s on bad teams and his current efficiency is so high, it would take an extreme decline to stoop to the lows Jefferson has displayed this season.

2-ONE-5
02-01-2014, 10:15 PM
i find your logic here a little strange.

they are clearly letting their best players rest more than usual this year.

if you adjusted Bosh's numbers to match the minutes Stephenson is getting it's 19.5/7.7 and by the way it's about the most efficient 20 points in the game.

does that mean nothing to you? Stephenson's scoring efficiency is middle of the pack so Bosh's raw scoring numbers should count for more unless you are being unreasonable.

for the record so i'm not labeled bias Lance Stephenson definitely should be on the team but your issue should be with Wall/Irving/Johnson

adjusting numbers doesnt make someone an all star. the fact that the Heat are resting guys is part of why theyre not having all star years. i wasnt comparing Lance to Bosh just pointing out that th Heat are no longer that dominant team that deserves 3 all star spots but sadly the problem is the east is so bad its easier to make the case for a guy like bosh. I personally think Al Jeff should go over Bosh, Lowry over DD, and A over JJ

NBA_Starter
02-01-2014, 11:02 PM
CB is most definitely a deserving All-Star this season.

Jamiecballer
02-01-2014, 11:09 PM
adjusting numbers doesnt make someone an all star. the fact that the Heat are resting guys is part of why theyre not having all star years. i wasnt comparing Lance to Bosh just pointing out that th Heat are no longer that dominant team that deserves 3 all star spots but sadly the problem is the east is so bad its easier to make the case for a guy like bosh. I personally think Al Jeff should go over Bosh, Lowry over DD, and A over JJ
I don't agree that they should be punished for resting a few more minutes than usual but i can see the argument for it.

however i think you are making a pretty poor argument for why the Pacers deserve 3 instead of the Heat when the difference in record is quite small.

And Al Jefferson should never be an all-star. Ever. Rebounding is really the only thing he does at a high level.

Pacerlive
02-02-2014, 12:03 AM
don't agree with any of those claims, except the triple double one which is undeniable fact.

but if you are going to go point for point don't forget middle of the road efficiency compared to one of the best in the game.
He has an above average TS% for starting sg so I am not sure what you mean middle of the road.

And no one is requiring you to agree, stats are stats.

Lance Stephenson gives up less PPP than Chris Bosh does. He also has higher assist percentage than Bosh (why you don't agree with him being a better passer is hilarious btw).

He averages more rebounds than Chris Bosh does on a team that rebounds the ball 10 times better than Miami. That sort of makes rebounds hard to come by while Bosh has to fight with who on the boards?

Chris Bosh is getting spoon feed points and you act like he did 80% of the work for his efficiency. He doesn't so why should I be impressed with it. He fits his role on the Heat but his role is less than what Stephenson is doing. Bosh doesn't run the second unit. He is not asked to create for others and he gives up 53% at the rim which is bad as a defender.

The only thing I am impressed with is his perimeter defense and his ability to space the floor.

Jamiecballer
02-02-2014, 12:58 AM
He has an above average TS% for starting sg so I am not sure what you mean middle of the road.
well it's middle of the road efficiency compared to Bosh's which is exactly what i said.


Lance Stephenson gives up less PPP than Chris Bosh does. He also has higher assist percentage than Bosh (why you don't agree with him being a better passer is hilarious btw).
Bosh is good passer for a big, Stephenson is a good passer for a guard. Why quibble over such minor distinctions. Stephenson has a position/role where he is required to handle the ball more often, and shares a backcourt with George Hill who is not much of a playmaker. Again, i agree that he is a good passer.


He averages more rebounds than Chris Bosh does on a team that rebounds the ball 10 times better than Miami. That sort of makes rebounds hard to come by while Bosh has to fight with who on the boards?
Don't get me wrong, Stephenson is a really good rebounder. But he's also on (and part of) a ridiculously good defensive unit (which means tons of defensive rebounds) with a below average rebounding PF and C who wreaks havoc challenging shots while other people clean up on the glass. I think the wings definitely are benefiting to some degree from that as far as rebound numbers go.

Bosh is a good rebounder as well IMO. not amazing by any stretch of the imagination but offensive rebounds for a team as good offensively as theirs are almost non-existent, and he does have 2 of the best rebounding wings sucking up rebounds.[/QUOTE]


Chris Bosh is getting spoon feed points and you act like he did 80% of the work for his efficiency.
the efficiency argument is a non-starter because he's done the exact same thing as first option for the Raptors.

He fits his role on the Heat but his role is less than what Stephenson is doing.

You are right, he isn't asked to do as much as Stephenson is. But for my money what he is asked to do, he does at a higher level.

they should both be in the all-star game without question so i'm sorry if you thought i was being combative because i am not.

Nick O
02-02-2014, 03:12 AM
don't agree with any of those claims, except the triple double one which is undeniable fact.

but if you are going to go point for point don't forget middle of the road efficiency compared to one of the best in the game.

this. also bosh has hot wife. this should be noted

deaner
02-02-2014, 10:08 AM
this. also bosh has hot wife. this should be noted

I'm not just sayn this because it's Bosh... Ewe. You haven't seen her in real life have you. She one step better than bosh's mother.

Nick O
02-02-2014, 03:40 PM
I'm not just sayn this because it's Bosh... Ewe. You haven't seen her in real life have you. She one step better than bosh's mother.

dat booty tho

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-03-2014, 05:34 PM
Is this fool using PPP again as a measure of how good a player is defensively? What about the way a player plays the pick and roll, or disrupts the teams plays by sticking to their man? What if someone is all up in the players grill but he chucks a rainbow shot and It goes in?

Typical pacers fan.

Anyways, Chris Bosh > Lance Stevenson.

Until we see lance's production without rim protection or without being the 4th maybe 5th option on his team, then come talk. Leave it to pacers fans to fill this topic up with utter ********.

We've seen Bosh's stats and production in Toronto. We're seeing just how important he is for the heat especially cos we don't have a luxury of a Roy hibbert or a serge Ibaka swatting away shot.

Anyways, as I said before.. Chris Bosh > Lance Stevenson