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View Full Version : Durant v Lebron: Legacy



Rentzias
01-29-2014, 11:00 AM
Durant is having an incredible season this year, even defensively. He is four years behind LeBron age/career-wise, and doesn't quite have the same all-around and individual accolades, although the statistics are still there.

What would it take for him to eventually be in the legacy conversation where James will reside, and do you think it's possible?

3RDASYSTEM
01-29-2014, 11:12 AM
KD/BRON were this good preNBA

to answer your question.....KD needs to stay healthy for his career and keep playing at this mvp level like he has since his TEXAS days, but especially since like the 10-11' season

it's clear BRON is the JORDAN of his era, while KD is the DREAM/MALONE/BARKLEY/IVERSON of his so far

kobebabe
01-29-2014, 11:29 AM
These KD threads are getting a bit too much. IJS

blystr2002
01-29-2014, 11:29 AM
KD/BRON were this good preNBA

to answer your question.....KD needs to stay healthy for his career and keep playing at this mvp level like he has since his TEXAS days, but especially since like the 10-11' season

it's clear BRON is the JORDAN of his era, while KD is the DREAM/MALONE/BARKLEY/IVERSON of his so far

Lebron is the best player hands down right now, but he has been in the league for 11 years and has 2 rings. That does not equal Jordan of his era. If anything that would be Kobe for having 5, but even that is a stretch. If he wins 4 more in the next 5 years then say that. As for KD matching Lebron's legacy. It all depends on how many championships Lebron ends with. I don't value MVP titles. They aren't given to the best player in the league. Kobe and Shaq only have one each and Jordan who was the best player practically every yr. only has 4. If KD is within a title of Lebron and we can say that he was the best player in the world for any 5 yr. stretch and being 4 yrs younger will have a shot. Then they are equal.

Im_in_Mia_bish
01-29-2014, 11:54 AM
Define defensively.. Because stats show the thunder play better defense (slightly) when he's off the court, and thabo guards the best player on the opposing team..

All that being said, he has improved his defense this year and his overall game.

Rentzias
01-29-2014, 11:58 AM
Define defensively.. Because stats show the thunder play better defense (slightly) when he's off the court, and thabo guards the best player on the opposing team..

All that being said, he has improved his defense this year and his overall game.
This is all I was referencing.

Jamiecballer
01-29-2014, 12:01 PM
we don't even know where James will end up so this is a tad premature.

Swashcuff
01-29-2014, 12:10 PM
Define defensively.. Because stats show the thunder play better defense (slightly) when he's off the court, and thabo guards the best player on the opposing team..

All that being said, he has improved his defense this year and his overall game.

Wouldn't put much stock into a singular statistic without looking at it more holistically. The Knicks are "better" defensively when Chandler sits, same for the Spurs and Duncan, Bulls and Noah, etc the 82games.com numbers aren't adjusted so the strengths/weaknesses of the players on the floor with him at the time isn't taken into consideration. The adjusted numbers (http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/2014-aspm/) for this year (updated as of the 18th of Jan) paints Durant as a solid defensive player, it does however paint Boogie as one as well. :o

By most other metrics however Durant has been pretty solid defensively this season.

archdevil84
01-29-2014, 12:37 PM
tONIGHT!!!! ITS SHOWDOWN TIME!!!!!!!! i hope wade goes for 50+ and whoops durants ***

Rentzias
01-29-2014, 12:38 PM
we don't even know where James will end up so this is a tad premature.
Guy has been in the league 10 years; shouldn't we have at least enough information to make reasonable projections at this point?

Jamiecballer
01-29-2014, 12:50 PM
Guy has been in the league 10 years; shouldn't we have at least enough information to make reasonable projections at this point?

i say this because if it was just about individual numbers then James ends up number 1, it's a slam dunk for me.
but a lot of people will be swayed by how many championships he gets. if he gets no more they will likely rank him differently than if he ends up with 10. just saying.

TomLoxas
01-29-2014, 01:05 PM
Win a championship this year and he supplants Lebron. That simple and no debate to it.

beliges
01-29-2014, 01:16 PM
Durant is having an incredible season this year, even defensively. He is four years behind LeBron age/career-wise, and doesn't quite have the same all-around and individual accolades, although the statistics are still there.

What would it take for him to eventually be in the legacy conversation where James will reside, and do you think it's possible?

Lebron has been the better player up until this season. This year Durant has been the best player in the league and better than Lebron so far. If Durant can play at that level and win a few titles, he has a good chance at surpassing Lebron. For the next few seasons, Durant and LBJ will be competing for titles. If Durant can get a few while preventing Lebron from winning some more, he can be greater than Lebron. Its gonna depend on who can win.

holditdown
01-29-2014, 01:18 PM
Win a championship this year and he supplants Lebron. That simple and no debate to it.

I agree.

ATX
01-29-2014, 01:22 PM
Win a championship this year and he supplants Lebron. That simple and no debate to it.

It's not that simple, and is certainly debatable.

holditdown
01-29-2014, 01:25 PM
It's not that simple, and is certainly debatable.

Given LeBron's easy way out and Durant being close to a 1 man show then it's certaintly debatable. It would be the closest thing to 03 Duncan since that season.

TomLoxas
01-29-2014, 01:41 PM
Given LeBron's easy way out and Durant being close to a 1 man show then it's certaintly debatable. It would be the closest thing to 03 Duncan since that season.

Yup. Then throw in the fact that Lebron's first title came in a shortened season and he needed to be bailed out in his second one, and that's even without taking the cheap "team up" into effect yet, the way Durant is playing this season if he wins it all there is absolutely no debate that he will surpass Bron Bron.

curtcocaine
01-29-2014, 01:44 PM
Yup. Then throw in the fact that Lebron's first title came in a shortened season and he needed to be bailed out in his second one, and that's even without taking the cheap "team up" into effect yet, the way Durant is playing this season if he wins it all there is absolutely no debate that he will surpass Bron Bron.
Heat fans will argue.....

TomLoxas
01-29-2014, 01:47 PM
Heat fans will argue.....

Heat fans? What are these Heat fans you spea... oh yea, you mean Bron Bron wagoners.

Jamiecballer
01-29-2014, 01:57 PM
Heat fans will argue.....

just about anyone with a level head will argue. to say that there is absolutely no debate is about as hard-headed and foolish as it gets.

Chronz
01-29-2014, 02:14 PM
just about anyone with a level head will argue. to say that there is absolutely no debate is about as hard-headed and foolish as it gets.

Well played sir.....

But I hope this comes down to level of play, rather than blind glances at RINGZ

Rentzias
01-29-2014, 02:17 PM
Well played sir.....

But I hope this comes down to level of play, rather than blind glances at RINGZ
If we assume they keep their current paces, and we evaluate them outside of hardware, will they be in the same conversation?

justinnum1
01-29-2014, 02:22 PM
Win a championship this year and he supplants Lebron. That simple and no debate to it.

:facepalm:

Chronz
01-29-2014, 02:44 PM
If we assume they keep their current paces, and we evaluate them outside of hardware, will they be in the same conversation?
Durant will surpass him eventually in my mind, should age at a better rate and didn't have the same motivational issues in his youth like Bron IMO.

Jamiecballer
01-29-2014, 02:47 PM
Well played sir.....

But I hope this comes down to level of play, rather than blind glances at RINGZ

well you and i might be in the minority in that we don't put huge weight on it. if i can assume that is what your take is.

Longhornfan1234
01-29-2014, 02:47 PM
KD is averaging 31/7/5/ 64 TS% while being number 1 among SFs in ISO defense.


LeBron couldn't dream of having this season.

nastynice
01-29-2014, 03:00 PM
Win a championship this year and he supplants Lebron. That simple and no debate to it.

lol, no, sorry. Lebron to date has accomplished much more and brought more to the table than Durant. However, we do kind of see this thing where Durant seems to be elevating to his peak, whereas lebron seems to be descending from his. So maybe time will change that, but I don't see it happening within the year, regardless of what each player does.

jerellh528
01-29-2014, 03:26 PM
tonight should be an awesome game, I'll be glued to my tv.

PhillyFaninLA
01-29-2014, 03:37 PM
Win a championship this year and he supplants Lebron. That simple and no debate to it.

Nice to know your open minded, you came on board this month so if this is not an alt then welcome aboard and you will quickly know how badly you set yourself up making statements like no debate to it.

tredigs
01-29-2014, 04:01 PM
I just love that in 3DASYSTEMCAPCAPS world view, you are born the player you will always be. Is it just a matter of getting out there on game day and coaching/life influences, etc will not change that, 3D? Not the first time I've read this take he has that insinuates players don't improve or regress once they reach the NBA, rather that it's just a matter of playing out the games. Can you maybe elaborate on that point my man? Because I don't think there's any profession in any arena where someone would agree that at 18-22 years old there isn't massive growth potential ahead of them, but how hard and smart they work to get there will dictate if they reach it. IE, not happening for an athlete if they spend their nights on the sauce and dog it in practice.

nickdymez
01-29-2014, 04:10 PM
KD/BRON were this good preNBA

to answer your question.....KD needs to stay healthy for his career and keep playing at this mvp level like he has since his TEXAS days, but especially since like the 10-11' season

it's clear BRON is the JORDAN of his era, while KD is the DREAM/MALONE/BARKLEY/IVERSON of his so far

Explain please

Jamiecballer
01-29-2014, 04:17 PM
Explain please

read: best

nickdymez
01-29-2014, 04:28 PM
read: Best

wtf?

nastynice
01-29-2014, 04:32 PM
he said of his era. which I don't necessarily agree with, but still, its debatable.

I don't think people remember how dominant a scorer jordan actually was

nickdymez
01-29-2014, 04:42 PM
he said of his era. which I don't necessarily agree with, but still, its debatable.

I don't think people remember how dominant a scorer jordan actually was

Its not debateable. At all....

NYCkid12
01-29-2014, 05:02 PM
Yup. Then throw in the fact that Lebron's first title came in a shortened season and he needed to be bailed out in his second one, and that's even without taking the cheap "team up" into effect yet, the way Durant is playing this season if he wins it all there is absolutely no debate that he will surpass Bron Bron.

So by your thinking, if KD won the championship vs. the Heat it wouldn't of meant as much because it was a shortened season ?

NYCkid12
01-29-2014, 05:03 PM
Given LeBron's easy way out and Durant being close to a 1 man show then it's certaintly debatable. It would be the closest thing to 03 Duncan since that season.

When Westbrook comes back the Thunder are far from a one man show, not to mention they have Ibaka as well

Riodagoat
01-29-2014, 05:11 PM
KD already surpassed LBJ. It's not like Lebron has 4 MVPs and 2 championships or anything like that.

Minimal
01-29-2014, 05:19 PM
How can LeBron be the Jordan of this era? He only won 4 MVPs in last 5 years, 2 rings, 2 finals mvps in last 2 seasons.

nickdymez
01-29-2014, 05:22 PM
How can LeBron be the Jordan of this era? He only won 4 MVPs in last 5 years, 2 rings, 2 finals mvps in last 2 seasons.

lol@ MVP's

Rain City
01-29-2014, 05:37 PM
its crazy that KD is 4 yrs younger.

I always think he is only a yr or 2 behind.

KD is going to go down as a better scorer, no question. LeBron will probably go down as the better all around player with more MVPs and all defensive teams.

I think if KD brings a ship to OKC he gives LeBron's legacy a real run for his money even if his total ring and MVP count is lower.

we are only in chapter 3 or 4 in a 10 chapter book so to speak. LeBron has a lead, but its slight if you consider at this point in LeBron's career he didn't have a ring either. sit back and enjoy.

jerellh528
01-29-2014, 05:39 PM
How can LeBron be the Jordan of this era? He only won 4 MVPs in last 5 years, 2 rings, 2 finals mvps in last 2 seasons.

THIS! There is no such thing as "jordan" of any era, there is jordan, then everyone else. 6x fmvp, 6x rings, 1x nba dpoy,10x scoring champ, 5x mvp, etc,etc,etc.

Rain City
01-29-2014, 05:47 PM
How can LeBron be the Jordan of this era? He only won 4 MVPs in last 5 years, 2 rings, 2 finals mvps in last 2 seasons.

MJ took a team to from the gutter to a dynasty.

when the going got too tough LeBron jumped on with 2 Olympians in their prime to a franchise that won a recent championship.

it is the equivalent to if MJ would have left CHI in 1990 and joined Dominique and barkley in philly or something. MJ's legacy would be totally different.

not to take away from bron, already is at an all time elite class. but when it comes to legacy, cant quite compete with MJ.

FraziersKnicks
01-29-2014, 05:54 PM
(patiently awaits nickdymez argument for Kobe being the "Jordan" of this era)

nickdymez
01-29-2014, 05:58 PM
(patiently awaits nickdymez argument for Kobe being the "Jordan" of this era)

Your're gonna be waiting for a long time.

tredigs
01-29-2014, 06:00 PM
MJ took a team to from the gutter to a dynasty.

when the going got too tough LeBron jumped on with 2 Olympians in their prime to a franchise that won a recent championship.

it is the equivalent to if MJ would have left CHI in 1990 and joined Dominique and barkley in philly or something. MJ's legacy would be totally different.

not to take away from bron, already is at an all time elite class. but when it comes to legacy, cant quite compete with MJ.

Right, and in this A = B scenario we should assume Dan Gilbert is Jerry Reinsdorf, and Varajao + Mo Williams = Scottie Pippen + Horace Grant, right? And obviously Mike Brown = Phil Jackson. I mean, with that legendary ensemble and a brighter future ahead under the helm of the omniscient Dan Gilbert (who you can always trust to bring in the top talent to battle the best teams in the world), how COULD Lebron have not signed a 2nd extension??!

Minimal
01-29-2014, 06:03 PM
MJ took a team to from the gutter to a dynasty.

when the going got too tough LeBron jumped on with 2 Olympians in their prime to a franchise that won a recent championship.

it is the equivalent to if MJ would have left CHI in 1990 and joined Dominique and barkley in philly or something. MJ's legacy would be totally different.

not to take away from bron, already is at an all time elite class. but when it comes to legacy, cant quite compete with MJ.
You do know Jordan was 1-9 in playoffs before Pippen? So how exactly did he took Bulls from the gutter to a dynasty? He couldn't win without Pippen and its questionable if he would have won a ring without him. Same can be said about LeBron with Wade and Bosh. But LeBron made the finals and was great in the playoffs when he was playing for Cavs, his impact is unquestionable. What was Cavs record after he left? huh? Fact is noone can win alone, nor Jordan, nor Bron, nor Durant. Everyone had great players by their side. Durant happened to be the luckiest of the 3, his team drafted the right players and he could compete from start of his career. Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, now Reggie Jackson.

Now back on topic, both Durant and Bron have GOAT potential, both are phenomenal players.

tredigs
01-29-2014, 06:04 PM
THAT said, I always maintained I wish he went to a slightly less star studded cast, but there are a lot more factors that go into a life decision like that then just the quality of your teammates.

QUE: :horse:

ramsizzle
01-29-2014, 06:07 PM
You do know Jordan was 1-9 in playoffs before Pippen? So how exactly did he took Bulls from the gutter to a dynasty? He couldn't win without Pippen and its questionable if he would have won a ring without him. Same can be said about LeBron with Wade and Bosh. But LeBron made the finals and was great in the playoffs when he was playing for Cavs, his impact is unquestionable. What was Cavs record after he left? huh? Fact is noone can win alone, nor Jordan, nor Bron, nor Durant. Everyone had great players by their side. Durant happened to be the luckiest of the 3, his team drafted the right players and he could compete from start of his career. Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, now Reggie Jackson.

Now back on topic, both Durant and Bron have GOAT potential, both are phenomenal players.

Jordan would lose to the greatest teams of all time in the celtics and pistons etc... lebron lost series he was favored in.

Back on topic... if he gets two rings then kd will have the better legacy. Simply by not leaving and not adding himself to a friends roster. is it fair? no.

Rain City
01-29-2014, 06:18 PM
Right, and in this A = B scenario we should assume Dan Gilbert is Jerry Reinsdorf, and Varajao + Mo Williams = Scottie Pippen + Horace Grant, right? And obviously Mike Brown = Phil Jackson. I mean, with that legendary ensemble and a brighter future ahead under the helm of the omniscient Dan Gilbert (who you can always trust to bring in the top talent to battle the best teams in the world), how COULD Lebron have not signed a 2nd extension??!

I happen to think if you swap out MJ in his prime on those cavs teams they win titles. they came close with lebron, mj is a little better, especially in playoffs.

nobody was complaining about LeBron's cast when the team had NBA best record those 2 years. truth is lebron came up too small in the playoffs vs teams everyone picked him to beat. cant picture that happening to MJ.

if you swap lebron on to MJ's early dynasty I have no way of believing he could get through a brutally tough NYK team with MJ's cast. Lebron has 2 Olympians in their prime and a deep bench. way more than MJ's teams.

Jamiecballer
01-29-2014, 06:28 PM
Its not debateable. At all....

seriously. who has been the most dominant player since Jordan?

beliges
01-29-2014, 06:35 PM
seriously. who has been the most dominant player since Jordan?

Kobe, then Duncan and Shaq, then Lebron.

Minimal
01-29-2014, 06:36 PM
Kobe, then Duncan and Shaq, then Lebron.
/facepalm

tredigs
01-29-2014, 06:39 PM
I happen to think if you swap out MJ in his prime on those cavs teams they win titles. they came close with lebron, mj is a little better, especially in playoffs.

nobody was complaining about LeBron's cast when the team had NBA best record those 2 years. truth is lebron came up too small in the playoffs vs teams everyone picked him to beat. cant picture that happening to MJ.

if you swap lebron on to MJ's early dynasty I have no way of believing he could get through a brutally tough NYK team with MJ's cast. Lebron has 2 Olympians in their prime and a deep bench. way more than MJ's teams.

Doubt Jordan wins with that cast. The only time Lebron got "close" to winning it in Cleveland was when he went through a fairly weak East (toughest opponent being the 53 win Pistons without Ben Wallace) and got pummeled in the Finals by the machine that was San Antonio in their big 3's prime. Jordan would've also very likely been crushed by San Antonio with that roster.

You won't catch me saying Jordan is not better than Lebron, but he's not THAT much better to win in those circumstances. And it's essentially impossible for a wing to be more dominant than Lebron was in the 08-09 playoffs (legendary performances multiple times over) - but still - hosed by the Magic as Dwight killed it in the post and their shooters caught fire. Nothing Jordan would've been able to do at that point in LBJ's position could've saved them imo.

Also, it's fair to say that he's no longer playing with 2 Olympians in their prime based on what we saw from them in the playoffs last year and what we're getting out of Wade this season. Bosh still has it, but he sucked in the playoffs (culminating in a goose egg in the Finals game 7) and frankly I'd MUCH rather have prime Rodman than Bosh on a team like that.

beliges
01-29-2014, 06:39 PM
/facepalm

Huh? Kobe had 5 titles and 7 Finals appearances. Nobody dominated more than that.

Duncan had 4 titles and on 5 Finals appearances. Shaq had 4 titles on 5 Finals appearances. LBJ had 2 titles on 4 Finals appearances.

I think its pretty clear who the most dominant players were. But let me guess, you think Lebron was the most dominant player since MJ right?

Baller1
01-29-2014, 06:40 PM
I happen to think if you swap out MJ in his prime on those cavs teams they win titles. they came close with lebron, mj is a little better, especially in playoffs.

nobody was complaining about LeBron's cast when the team had NBA best record those 2 years. truth is lebron came up too small in the playoffs vs teams everyone picked him to beat. cant picture that happening to MJ.

if you swap lebron on to MJ's early dynasty I have no way of believing he could get through a brutally tough NYK team with MJ's cast. Lebron has 2 Olympians in their prime and a deep bench. way more than MJ's teams.

Come on man, you don't actually believe that, do you? Jordan played for an all time great coach, and alongside another top 50 all time player... His role players in Grant, Rodman, Kerr, Kukoc, etc. were fantastic as well.

Jordan is the best to ever play, but people put him up on some unattainable pedestal that he shouldn't be on.

beliges
01-29-2014, 06:42 PM
Come on man, you don't actually believe that, do you? Jordan played for an all time great coach, and alongside another top 50 all time player... His role players in Grant, Rodman, Kerr, Kukoc, etc. were fantastic as well.

Jordan is the best to ever play, but people put him up on some unattainable pedestal that he shouldn't be on.

MJ was just one of those very very rare players that had absolutely no holes in their game. I mean we have had maybe 2 or 3 players in the history of the league that we can say that about.

Minimal
01-29-2014, 07:00 PM
Huh? Kobe had 5 titles and 7 Finals appearances. Nobody dominated more than that.

Duncan had 4 titles and on 5 Finals appearances. Shaq had 4 titles on 5 Finals appearances. LBJ had 2 titles on 4 Finals appearances.

I think its pretty clear who the most dominant players were. But let me guess, you think Lebron was the most dominant player since MJ right?
Since when dominating is winning championships? Robert Horry won 5 rings after Jordans Bulls, he dominated the league.

None of your named players were on LeBrons level of play, except for Shaq. He actually dominated the league in his time, LeBron dominates the league now, he is the best player in the league for the last 5 years atleast. Won 4 MVPs, 2 rings, is the face of the league.

Im_in_Mia_bish
01-29-2014, 07:04 PM
Wouldn't put much stock into a singular statistic without looking at it more holistically. The Knicks are "better" defensively when Chandler sits, same for the Spurs and Duncan, Bulls and Noah, etc the 82games.com numbers aren't adjusted so the strengths/weaknesses of the players on the floor with him at the time isn't taken into consideration. The adjusted numbers (http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/2014-aspm/) for this year (updated as of the 18th of Jan) paints Durant as a solid defensive player, it does however paint Boogie as one as well. :o

By most other metrics however Durant has been pretty solid defensively this season.

I agree. He has def been solid.
But he isn't the one guarding the teams best player. Thabo is.

It's nothing against durant.. Just a luxury he has.

tredigs
01-29-2014, 07:10 PM
I agree. He has def been solid.
But he isn't the one guarding the teams best player. Thabo is.

It's nothing against durant.. Just a luxury he has.

For a majority of the time I think this is true, though it depends on how big the other teams top wing weapon is and what point of the game it is. From the games I've been watching, it seems that they're leaning on KD as the shutdown ISO defender in the closing minutes. Part of that being that KD wants the job and is insanely hard to both get around and get a shot over if he's locked in, and part of that being that Thabo is not always part of the closing unit.

Im_in_Mia_bish
01-29-2014, 07:11 PM
For a majority of the time I think this is true, though it depends on how big the other teams top wing weapon is and what point of the game it is. From the games I've been watching, it seems that they're leaning on KD as the shutdown ISO defender in the closing minutes. Part of that being that KD wants the job and is insanely hard to get a shot over if he's locked in, and part of that being that Thabo is not always part of the closing unit.

Yup. Either way you slice it, durant has improved this season on both ends of the court.

beliges
01-29-2014, 07:11 PM
Since when dominating is winning championships? Robert Horry won 5 rings after Jordans Bulls, he dominated the league.

None of your named players were on LeBrons level of play, except for Shaq. He actually dominated the league in his time, LeBron dominates the league now, he is the best player in the league for the last 5 years atleast. Won 4 MVPs, 2 rings, is the face of the league.

LOL. Horry was a role player. Those other guys were superstars. And winning = dominating (especially when each of these players were on great teams). Right now, Lebron is on a team every bit as talented as the guys mentioned above had when they were winning titles. If LBJ gets to 4 or 5 titles, then your argument will have merit, but until then, its silly to say Lebron dominated his era when guys like Kobe, Shaq and Duncan were simply more dominant in terms of overall success.

tredigs
01-29-2014, 07:22 PM
LOL. Horry was a role player. Those other guys were superstars. And winning = dominating (especially when each of these players were on great teams). Right now, Lebron is on a team every bit as talented as the guys mentioned above had when they were winning titles. If LBJ gets to 4 or 5 titles, then your argument will have merit, but until then, its silly to say Lebron dominated his era when guys like Kobe, Shaq and Duncan were simply more dominant in terms of overall success.

Way too fickle of an argument with your connection of personal and team success. Nobody is denying the end game of winning titles as being the easiest way to claim dominance, but as everybody ****ing knows you can't do it by yourself. You're essentially breaking it down to the point where you're saying that last year Lebron James was dominant because the Heat won the title, but if CHRIS BOSH and RAY ALLEN (shout out to 3RDA caps game holla) did not make the decisive game 6 play happen - then LEBRON is now somehow less dominant? Same can be said for Kobe and the Horry/Fisher shots, etc.

Do you think maybe there exists a possibility that there better ways to value individual dominance, and that it is a bit more complex then you are making it out to be? And that maybe, just maybe, you are a tad biased as a massive Kobe fan?

nickdymez
01-29-2014, 07:28 PM
Since when dominating is winning championships? Robert Horry won 5 rings after Jordans Bulls, he dominated the league.

None of your named players were on LeBrons level of play, except for Shaq. He actually dominated the league in his time, LeBron dominates the league now, he is the best player in the league for the last 5 years atleast. Won 4 MVPs, 2 rings, is the face of the league.

How are you dominating, but not winning? Espcially since Lebron plays like **** in the finals. **** = not on the level of all time greats

Rain City
01-29-2014, 07:30 PM
Come on man, you don't actually believe that, do you? Jordan played for an all time great coach, and alongside another top 50 all time player... His role players in Grant, Rodman, Kerr, Kukoc, etc. were fantastic as well.

Jordan is the best to ever play, but people put him up on some unattainable pedestal that he shouldn't be on.

I believe it 100%. I also don't think pip is a top 50 of all time without being Jordan's wing man. rodman was great but he had no offense. kukoc was arguably the worst defensive player in the league when he played, MJ covered those holes. and kerr lol. he was a bit player only remembered bc he was a teammate of MJ. the guy never averaged 8pts at his peak. boobie Gibson was much better on LeBron's teams in the same role.

just bc he LeBron is the best player in this era, doesn't mean he can go after MJ's throne. its not just what MJ did, it was how he did it.

in his 2nd 3peat his teams won 72, 69,68 wins. LeBron has never had that dominance with MIA, even tho he has a clear better cast.

phil is an all time great HC bc he had HOF players. brown was COY in reg season, when LeBron choked be became the scapegoat. there isn't as much difference as you think.

holditdown
01-29-2014, 07:39 PM
I see it took 3 pages for Kobe stans to show their insecurity in a thread completely unrelated to him.

Of course.

naps
01-29-2014, 07:46 PM
Yup. Then throw in the fact that Lebron's first title came in a shortened season and he needed to be bailed out in his second one, and that's even without taking the cheap "team up" into effect yet, the way Durant is playing this season if he wins it all there is absolutely no debate that he will surpass Bron Bron.

1. Shortened season only for LeBron? Did Durant and other stars play 82 games that year? Was the playoffs 2 rounds?
2. Bailed out? I can give 1865875435667 examples of that if I go back in league history.
3. NVM because your post tells how much knowledge you have on this game.

naps
01-29-2014, 07:53 PM
Kobe, then Duncan and Shaq, then Lebron.

Kobe is more dominant than LeBron, Shaq, and Duncan? Hahahaha...




I see it took 3 pages for Kobe stans to show their insecurity in a thread completely unrelated to him.

Of course.

What's new man. And funny it's the same 4/5 philes all the time. Not someone like Bruno or Shep who actually can make a case for their claims when it comes to Kobe.

justinnum1
01-29-2014, 07:57 PM
(patiently awaits nickdymez argument for Kobe being the "Jordan" of this era)

He knows Lebron>kobe. He ain't that ******

beliges
01-29-2014, 08:02 PM
Way too fickle of an argument with your connection of personal and team success. Nobody is denying the end game of winning titles as being the easiest way to claim dominance, but as everybody ****ing knows you can't do it by yourself. You're essentially breaking it down to the point where you're saying that last year Lebron James was dominant because the Heat won the title, but if CHRIS BOSH and RAY ALLEN (shout out to 3RDA caps game holla) did not make the decisive game 6 play happen - then LEBRON is now somehow less dominant? Same can be said for Kobe and the Horry/Fisher shots, etc.

Do you think maybe there exists a possibility that there better ways to value individual dominance, and that it is a bit more complex then you are making it out to be? And that maybe, just maybe, you are a tad biased as a massive Kobe fan?

I tend to agree that individual dominance is based on individual performance + success. In my opinion that is the best way to gauge an individual's dominance. But you are missing my point when I say guys like Kobe, Shaq and Duncan dominated their era more than Lebron has SO FAR. Each of those guys I mentioned have been able to win multiple championships while on great teams. Lebron is currently on a great team (arguably the most talented team in the league). To be, a player's dominance is measured by his individual performance as well as team success. Its not fair to claim a certain individual was more dominan when he could not achieve the same amount of success as another player with similar talent and similar stats. Lebron's overall stats are very similar to the stats of those players mentioned above. However, those players were able to achieve far greater success in terms of winning than Lebron has thus far. Sometimes stats do not translate into winning.

Take Wilt as an example. He was dominant, yes. But was he more dominant than Bill Russell? Definitely not. Lebron has a lot more winning to do (especially given his current roster) before someone can legitimately claim he is the most dominant player since MJ. Because there have been at least 3 players that have dominated the league more than Lebron has since MJ retired.

Minimal
01-29-2014, 08:07 PM
I tend to agree that individual dominance is based on individual performance + success. In my opinion that is the best way to gauge an individual's dominance. But you are missing my point when I say guys like Kobe, Shaq and Duncan dominated their era more than Lebron has SO FAR. Each of those guys I mentioned have been able to win multiple championships while on great teams. Lebron is currently on a great team (arguably the most talented team in the league). To be, a player's dominance is measured by his individual performance as well as team success. Its not fair to claim a certain individual was more dominan when he could not achieve the same amount of success as another player with similar talent and similar stats. Lebron's overall stats are very similar to the stats of those players mentioned above. However, those players were able to achieve far greater success in terms of winning than Lebron has thus far. Sometimes stats do not translate into winning.

Take Wilt as an example. He was dominant, yes. But was he more dominant than Bill Russell? Definitely not. Lebron has a lot more winning to do (especially given his current roster) before someone can legitimately claim he is the most dominant player since MJ. Because there have been at least 3 players that have dominated the league more than Lebron has since MJ retired.
Dude, what you say doesn't make sense. And wilt was the most dominant player ever.

archdevil84
01-29-2014, 08:23 PM
miami is looking REALY good this first 6 minutes

numba1CHANGsta
01-29-2014, 08:26 PM
How is this a legacy? LeBron 4 MVP's, 2 Championships; Durant 0 MVPS, 0 Championships

LeBron also dominates the Head2Head matchup's

close thread, re-open this in about 10 years

naps
01-29-2014, 08:26 PM
Russell was more dominant than Wilt? Probably one of the most rubbish comments I have seen in my life.

SPURSFAN1
01-29-2014, 08:30 PM
2 rings vs 0 rings. Not really much of a legacy.

Jamiecballer
01-29-2014, 08:43 PM
kobe, then duncan and shaq, then lebron.

lololol

nickdymez
01-29-2014, 08:57 PM
He knows Lebron>kobe. He ain't that ******

You insecure Lebron fans are hilarious. Kobe got a ring on every finger on one hand and killed every team he's been up against except the Pistons who took a **** on Kobe. But keep thinking Lakers fans are worried about Lebron.

nickdymez
01-29-2014, 09:03 PM
lmfao@ Lebron trying to stick Durant. Lebron must post on PSD thinking he's an elite one on one defender against guys his size

holditdown
01-29-2014, 09:14 PM
You insecure Lebron fans are hilarious. Kobe got a ring on every finger on one hand and killed every team he's been up against except the Pistons who took a **** on Kobe. But keep thinking Lakers fans are worried about Lebron.

They aren't insecure. LeBron is just a more dominant player. And I hate the guy as much anyone on this Earth.

Again Kobe Stans invade a thread.

UPRock
01-29-2014, 09:19 PM
nickdymez is a Kobe groupie, anything he writes is invalid.

holditdown
01-29-2014, 09:22 PM
nickdymez is a Kobe groupie, anything he writes is invalid.

Why are they EVERYWHERE

UPRock
01-29-2014, 09:26 PM
I heard Kobe is good at giving money away, anything for a groupie :rolleyes:

mngopher35
01-29-2014, 09:45 PM
I tend to agree that individual dominance is based on individual performance + success. In my opinion that is the best way to gauge an individual's dominance. But you are missing my point when I say guys like Kobe, Shaq and Duncan dominated their era more than Lebron has SO FAR. Each of those guys I mentioned have been able to win multiple championships while on great teams. Lebron is currently on a great team (arguably the most talented team in the league). To be, a player's dominance is measured by his individual performance as well as team success. Its not fair to claim a certain individual was more dominan when he could not achieve the same amount of success as another player with similar talent and similar stats. Lebron's overall stats are very similar to the stats of those players mentioned above. However, those players were able to achieve far greater success in terms of winning than Lebron has thus far. Sometimes stats do not translate into winning.

Take Wilt as an example. He was dominant, yes. But was he more dominant than Bill Russell? Definitely not. Lebron has a lot more winning to do (especially given his current roster) before someone can legitimately claim he is the most dominant player since MJ. Because there have been at least 3 players that have dominated the league more than Lebron has since MJ retired.

How important are MVPS to you?

Supreme LA
01-30-2014, 04:41 AM
Win a championship this year and he supplants Lebron. That simple and no debate to it.

This. If KD surpasses Lebron who is in his prime it would be undeniable at that point.

Rentzias
01-30-2014, 10:44 AM
Didn't realize this:


Just to understand, last season was the first time in Durant's career he ended up with more assists than turnovers. He had 93 more assists than turnovers in 81 games last season. Through 47 games this season, that positive margin is already at 83.

I knew his assist numbers were way up this year, but didn't know about the previous years.

nickdymez
01-30-2014, 01:49 PM
nickdymez is a Kobe groupie, anything he writes is invalid.

Hey bro

beliges
01-30-2014, 02:18 PM
I tend to agree that individual dominance is based on individual performance + success. In my opinion that is the best way to gauge an individual's dominance. But you are missing my point when I say guys like Kobe, Shaq and Duncan dominated their era more than Lebron has SO FAR. Each of those guys I mentioned have been able to win multiple championships while on great teams. Lebron is currently on a great team (arguably the most talented team in the league). To be, a player's dominance is measured by his individual performance as well as team success. Its not fair to claim a certain individual was more dominan when he could not achieve the same amount of success as another player with similar talent and similar stats. Lebron's overall stats are very similar to the stats of those players mentioned above. However, those players were able to achieve far greater success in terms of winning than Lebron has thus far. Sometimes stats do not translate into winning.

Take Wilt as an example. He was dominant, yes. But was he more dominant than Bill Russell? Definitely not. Lebron has a lot more winning to do (especially given his current roster) before someone can legitimately claim he is the most dominant player since MJ. Because there have been at least 3 players that have dominated the league more than Lebron has since MJ retired.

How important are MVPS to you?

MVPs are important to me but not significant. Any award that says nash is better than Shaq has something fatally flawed with it.

mngopher35
01-30-2014, 06:18 PM
MVPs are important to me but not significant. Any award that says nash is better than Shaq has something fatally flawed with it.

Umm, isn't that exactly what you are doing with rings in your arguments (these aren't awards but they are also based on team play, finals mvps are where the individual comes in). My point is that how can you say Kobe's 5 rings are so valuable but not count MVP's in a better light or as significant than just a ring?

Kobe won rings (but no finals mvp) in 2000, 2001, 2002. Lebron won an MVP (but no finals MVP) in 2009, 2010. Please rank each of these years in order of how good the player was. If you have Lebron in the top 2 spots (or even 2/3) then why are those years so important for Kobe's legacy but MVP's aren't significant for Lebron?

Those rings show us that he stepped up and had a couple of very good playoff runs, but he also had an opportunity most superstars don't get (playing with the most dominant center in the league for your first 8 years). Yes he should get credit for playing well and helping the team win a ring (especially in 2001). You can't just count rings and call someone the most dominant. You know how people always bring up horry? We understand he wasn't a superstar but that is the ridiculous logic some people try to use when they post things like total ring count as main support. I mean we could use Scottie Pippen instead if that makes you feel better? Was he 2nd most dominant player behind Jordan in the 90's?

Chronz
01-30-2014, 07:26 PM
Umm, isn't that exactly what you are doing with rings in your arguments (these aren't awards but they are also based on team play, finals mvps are where the individual comes in). My point is that how can you say Kobe's 5 rings are so valuable but not count MVP's in a better light or as significant than just a ring?

Kobe won rings (but no finals mvp) in 2000, 2001, 2002. Lebron won an MVP (but no finals MVP) in 2009, 2010. Please rank each of these years in order of how good the player was. If you have Lebron in the top 2 spots (or even 2/3) then why are those years so important for Kobe's legacy but MVP's aren't significant for Lebron?

Those rings show us that he stepped up and had a couple of very good playoff runs, but he also had an opportunity most superstars don't get (playing with the most dominant center in the league for your first 8 years). Yes he should get credit for playing well and helping the team win a ring (especially in 2001). You can't just count rings and call someone the most dominant. You know how people always bring up horry? We understand he wasn't a superstar but that is the ridiculous logic some people try to use when they post things like total ring count as main support. I mean we could use Scottie Pippen instead if that makes you feel better? Was he 2nd most dominant player behind Jordan in the 90's?
Dont bother, hes never been able to explain how hes combined rings+individual success (Its why hes never explained how guys like Hayes arent ranked head of guys like Malone/Chuck. Somehow Kobe comes out on top even though he was CLEARLY not his teams best player for 3 of his rings. I have Duncan AND Shaq ahead of Kobe by "overall dominance" because they were CLEARLY more productive/influential to their teams bottom line.

Bron and Kobe are roughly in the same boat, Kobe gets the edge due to sheer longevity but Bron is right there even though hes barely reaching 30. It scares these kobephiles

Chronz
01-30-2014, 07:27 PM
MVPs are important to me but not significant. Any award that says nash is better than Shaq has something fatally flawed with it.

Why, after all these years, do you not understand what the MVP is all about?

beliges
01-30-2014, 07:45 PM
Why, after all these years, do you not understand what the MVP is all about?

Maybe I'm missing it. I'd love for some clarification. MVP seems to be the best player, who seems to be loved by the media, playing for the best team. Clearly you have to be one of the best players in the league to be the MVP. I think they need to simply change the MVP criteria and should give the award to the best player in the league that season.

Jamiecballer
01-30-2014, 07:57 PM
Maybe I'm missing it. I'd love for some clarification. MVP seems to be the best player, who seems to be loved by the media, playing for the best team. Clearly you have to be one of the best players in the league to be the MVP. I think they need to simply change the MVP criteria and should give the award to the best player in the league that season.
Awarding it in that way only hurts your Kobe is better than Duncan is better than Shaq is better than Lebron argument.

beliges
01-30-2014, 08:27 PM
Awarding it in that way only hurts your Kobe is better than Duncan is better than Shaq is better than Lebron argument.

Not sure why you have such a fascination with Kobe. Quite the contrary, awarding the MVP in the way I explained only makes Kobe, Shaq and Duncan look that much better because each one would have significantly more MVPs.

Chronz
01-30-2014, 08:46 PM
Maybe I'm missing it. I'd love for some clarification. MVP seems to be the best player, who seems to be loved by the media, playing for the best team.
Cant u google? Nash was NOT on the best team when he won it the 2nd time so how can that be a primary criteria? Maybe, just maybe, its about impact for your respective team. You can still argue he doesn't deserve it, but to chalk it up how you have (best team) shows a complete ignorance to NBA history.



Clearly you have to be one of the best players in the league to be the MVP.
Umm yea, that should go without saying . Really breaking ground with that one.


I think they need to simply change the MVP criteria and should give the award to the best player in the league that season.

Cool?

mngopher35
01-30-2014, 09:05 PM
Dont bother, hes never been able to explain how hes combined rings+individual success (Its why hes never explained how guys like Hayes arent ranked head of guys like Malone/Chuck. Somehow Kobe comes out on top even though he was CLEARLY not his teams best player for 3 of his rings. I have Duncan AND Shaq ahead of Kobe by "overall dominance" because they were CLEARLY more productive/influential to their teams bottom line.

Bron and Kobe are roughly in the same boat, Kobe gets the edge due to sheer longevity but Bron is right there even though hes barely reaching 30. It scares these kobephiles

agree with the bold, that's how I see it too. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron in that order (so far in their careers) in dominance.

Jamiecballer
01-30-2014, 09:29 PM
Not sure why you have such a fascination with Kobe. Quite the contrary, awarding the MVP in the way I explained only makes Kobe, Shaq and Duncan look that much better because each one would have significantly more MVPs.

I do? i've made like 3 Kobe posts in my whole life.

Kobe has never been the best player in the game. If you came to that conclusion based on his championships you should probably know you could have swapped Vince Carter with Kobe for the first 3 and had the exact same result.

nastynice
01-30-2014, 09:35 PM
agree with the bold, that's how I see it too. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron in that order (so far in their careers) in dominance.

I agree with this. Kobe vs Duncan could go either way, but I'd probably go with how u put it

holditdown
01-30-2014, 10:41 PM
I agree with this. Kobe vs Duncan could go either way, but I'd probably go with how u put it

Disagree. Dominance would be Shaq, Duncan, LeBron then Kobe for me.

Longevity would be Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, LeBron right now.

mngopher35
01-30-2014, 11:04 PM
Disagree. Dominance would be Shaq, Duncan, LeBron then Kobe for me.

Longevity would be Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, LeBron right now.

I took longevity into consideration. I think that the other 3 have been more dominant in their peak possibly but I was just saying overall dominance of the league (because beliges was using rings to try and rank their "dominance").

I would have Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, Kobe in order for their peak dominance probably.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-30-2014, 11:23 PM
Disagree. Dominance would be Shaq, Duncan, LeBron then Kobe for me.

Longevity would be Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, LeBron right now.

I think that Lebron has been more dominant that any of them for a longer period of time. Its really close with him and Shaq but Duncan is not in their class. Duncan had three years that stack up against Shaq and Lebron from ages 26 through 28. But Lebron has had 7 years just as good or better, and Shaq has had 5. Kobe would be far behind all of them though

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-30-2014, 11:24 PM
I took longevity into consideration. I think that the other 3 have been more dominant in their peak possibly but I was just saying overall dominance of the league (because beliges was using rings to try and rank their "dominance").

I would have Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, Kobe in order for their peak dominance probably.

Don't you think that Duncan only playing 30 minutes a game for his past 5 years hurts his longevity argument? To me that is a knock on him. You cant be dominant from the bench

holditdown
01-30-2014, 11:32 PM
Don't you think that Duncan only playing 30 minutes a game for his past 5 years hurts his longevity argument? To me that is a knock on him. You cant be dominant from the bench

A little, but his 2003 season was the masterpiece of the 2000s. So that weighs on my mind a lot in terms of dominance.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-30-2014, 11:43 PM
A little, but his 2003 season was the masterpiece of the 2000s. So that weighs on my mind a lot in terms of dominance.

Duncan's 02/03 season? I would say his actual best season was the year before in 01/02 and no way is that the best of the decade. Shaq had two years that were better that decade in 99/00 and 01/02 and Lebron has had 5 years that were better.

mngopher35
01-30-2014, 11:46 PM
Don't you think that Duncan only playing 30 minutes a game for his past 5 years hurts his longevity argument? To me that is a knock on him. You cant be dominant from the bench

Ya, a little bit. Kobe coming off the bench to start his career makes up for it imo. They have about 3400 difference in minutes played because of Duncan resting. Kobe played 3100ish minutes in his first two years off the bench.

holditdown
01-30-2014, 11:49 PM
Duncan's 02/03 season? I would say his actual best season was the year before in 01/02 and no way is that the best of the decade. Shaq had two years that were better that decade in 99/00 and 01/02 and Lebron has had 5 years that were better.

Statistically yes, but I would argue he was the only option on that 2003 team.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-30-2014, 11:55 PM
Statistically yes, but I would argue he was the only option on that 2003 team.

But so was Lebron with the Cavs. And Parker and Manu were better than anything on those Cavs.

holditdown
01-30-2014, 11:57 PM
But so was Lebron with the Cavs. And Parker and Manu were better than anything on those Cavs.

LeBron didn't win a title with the sorry Cavs. Duncan won a title when the supporting cast around him was trash in 2003. Parker and Manu were average at best back in 2003.

That's why I called Duncan's 2003 season the masterpiece of the 2000s.

holditdown
01-31-2014, 12:00 AM
Parker's 2003 playoff PER was 11.9

Manu's 2003 playoff PER was 15.0

To this day I'm amazed the Spurs won that title.

beliges
01-31-2014, 12:17 AM
I took longevity into consideration. I think that the other 3 have been more dominant in their peak possibly but I was just saying overall dominance of the league (because beliges was using rings to try and rank their "dominance").

I would have Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, Kobe in order for their peak dominance probably.

Don't you think that Duncan only playing 30 minutes a game for his past 5 years hurts his longevity argument? To me that is a knock on him. You cant be dominant from the bench

Winning with talent is much more indicative of dominance than individual stats.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-31-2014, 12:26 AM
LeBron didn't win a title with the sorry Cavs. Duncan won a title when the supporting cast around him was trash in 2003. Parker and Manu were average at best back in 2003.

That's why I called Duncan's 2003 season the masterpiece of the 2000s.


Parker's 2003 playoff PER was 11.9

Manu's 2003 playoff PER was 15.0

To this day I'm amazed the Spurs won that title.

Oh got you. I didn't know you were taking winning a ring in that particular year with substandard talent into the equation.

Still then, Shaq's 2000 year is pretty good. He won with Kobe just barely coming into his own and roll players everywhere else. Plus his was much better statistically then Duncan's best years. But everyone has their own opinion. With the criteria you are using, I would take Shaqs year as the best.

mngopher35
01-31-2014, 12:28 AM
Winning with talent is much more indicative of dominance than individual stats.

Your role, coaching, teammates, competition, injuries, etc. all play a role in winning. This is why horry won 6 (he won with talent, your exact words).

If you would like to explain your reasoning, reply to my other post.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-31-2014, 12:33 AM
Your role, coaching, teammates, competition, injuries, etc. all play a role in winning. This is why horry won 6 (he won with talent, your exact words).

If you would like to explain your reasoning, reply to my other post.

Actually 7

holditdown
01-31-2014, 12:34 AM
Oh got you. I didn't know you were taking winning a ring in that particular year with substandard talent into the equation.

Still then, Shaq's 2000 year is pretty good. He won with Kobe just barely coming into his own and roll players everywhere else. Plus is was much better statistically then Duncan's best years. But everyone has their own opinion. With the criteria you are using, I would take Shaqs year as the best.

You definitely have an argument. I would say though that since 2000 LeBron is among the most dominant players in the NBA. We could have great debates over who had the best run, the best season, who was the most dominant. He's up there with Shaq and Duncan.

Im_in_Mia_bish
01-31-2014, 12:36 AM
Lebron's 2012 playoff run was the best IMO where he averaged 30 10 6 on 57.6%TS

Second, shaq's dominating 2000 where he went 31 15 on 55.6%TS

Third, Duncan's 02 where he went 25 14 5 on 57.7% TS

last but not least, Kobe's 2001 ( where shaq and him destroyed the league) 30 7 6 on 55.5% TS

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-31-2014, 12:36 AM
You definitely have an argument. I would say though that since 2000 LeBron is among the most dominant players in the NBA. We could have great debates over who had the best run, the best season, who was the most dominant. He's up there with Shaq and Duncan.

He is going to be higher then both of them if he stays healthy.

Im_in_Mia_bish
01-31-2014, 12:38 AM
And IMO.. Lebron had the best playoff run EVER. followed by shaqs 2000 and MJ's 91 to round up top 3.

But you could swap any of the 3.. Either way I'm sure those 3 playoff runs are in everyone's top 3 list.

Im_in_Mia_bish
01-31-2014, 12:40 AM
He is going to be higher then both of them if he stays healthy.

Agreed. Health, Mvps, finals MVPs and rings shall help ;)

holditdown
01-31-2014, 12:46 AM
Lebron's 2012 playoff run was the best IMO where he averaged 30 10 6 on 57.6%TS

Second, shaq's dominating 2000 where he went 31 15 on 55.6%TS

Third, Duncan's 02 where he went 25 14 5 on 57.7% TS

last but not least, Kobe's 2001 ( where shaq and him destroyed the league) 30 7 6 on 55.5% TS

Hmmmm.... thanks for posting the numbers. Just going by the numbers though Duncan out-rebounded LeBron by 4. Was 1 assist shy. Was about efficient scoring the ball as LeBron, but had less volume, scoring 5 less per game. That's not too far off statistically from LeBron, from a numbers standpoint, very close.

I'd say when you take into Duncan's substantially inferior supporting cast Duncan's 02 arguably better than LeBron 12.

Floor impact these guys are extremely high and do things that don't show up on the boxscore. So that's a wash right there.

Im_in_Mia_bish
01-31-2014, 12:54 AM
Hmmmm.... thanks for posting the numbers. Just going by the numbers though Duncan out-rebounded LeBron by 4. Was 1 assist shy. Was about efficient scoring the ball as LeBron, but had less volume, scoring 5 less per game. That's not too far off statistically from LeBron, from a numbers standpoint, very close.

I'd say when you take into Duncan's substantially inferior supporting cast Duncan's 02 arguably better than LeBron 12.

Floor impact these guys are extremely high and do things that don't show up on the boxscore. So that's a wash right there.

The only issue I see is that these guys were coached by top 2 head coaches. Shaq, Jordan and Duncan.

Lebron's 2012 included crazy numbers against Indiana and game 6 ecf against Boston.

Wade was hobbled, bosh was injured from pacers game 1. Lebron didn't have much help during the first ring, the second ring as well.. But the first ring he went crazy. He was guarding everyone. Duncan and shaq are pf/c.. So the advantage in rebounds is only natural. Although Duncan's assists were insane.

magic0320
01-31-2014, 01:57 AM
rolf i love how people here are trying to take away what kobe have done.

like how kobe never was best player in the league. well nba players, nba coaches, and nba legends said kobe was the best in the league plenty of time so i rather listen to them than you fans here nice try though troll

Chronz
01-31-2014, 03:15 AM
agree with the bold, that's how I see it too. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron in that order (so far in their careers) in dominance.
pretty much

amos1er
01-31-2014, 05:17 AM
Your role, coaching, teammates, competition, injuries, etc. all play a role in winning. This is why horry won 6 (he won with talent, your exact words).

If you would like to explain your reasoning, reply to my other post.

Not to nit pick, but Horry actually won 7.

amos1er
01-31-2014, 05:20 AM
rolf i love how people here are trying to take away what kobe have done.

like how kobe never was best player in the league. well nba players, nba coaches, and nba legends said kobe was the best in the league plenty of time so i rather listen to them than you fans here nice try though troll

Ya, to say Kobe was never the best in the league is just plain foolish. The one thing we can all agree on is that Kobe had the most haters of any player in NBA history for sure.

amos1er
01-31-2014, 05:21 AM
Lebron's 2012 playoff run was the best IMO where he averaged 30 10 6 on 57.6%TS

Second, shaq's dominating 2000 where he went 31 15 on 55.6%TS

Third, Duncan's 02 where he went 25 14 5 on 57.7% TS

last but not least, Kobe's 2001 ( where shaq and him destroyed the league) 30 7 6 on 55.5% TS

Wow.

tredigs
01-31-2014, 05:29 AM
Ya, to say Kobe was never the best in the league is just plain foolish. The one thing we can all agree on is that Kobe had the most haters of any player in NBA history for sure.

And the flip side of that coin (ignoring pre 1985 ball that neither of us know what the daily public perception of past greats were), is that no player in modern history has had such loyal and die hard fans.

The real truth of the matter is that despite public perception and the leagues immense promotion of him in the wake of the MJ retirement, there was ALWAYS a player or group of players that you could debate as being as good or better than Kobe in a particular season.

We have been over this ad-nauseam, and in one debate on this exact subject in particular I shut you down fairly hard with a highly detailed rebuttal post if I remember correctly. You had no comeback to what I laid down other than to parrot the opinions of others. I told you then that I respected your opinion on it, and I still do. But let's not be audacious enough to say it's "foolish" given the past arguments we've had here on the subject.

amos1er
01-31-2014, 05:42 AM
And the flip side of that coin (ignoring pre 1985 ball that neither of us know what the daily public perception of past greats were), is that no player in modern history has had such loyal and die hard fans.

The real truth of the matter is that despite public perception and the leagues immense promotion of him in the wake of the MJ retirement, there was ALWAYS a player or group of players that you could debate as being as good or better than Kobe in a particular season.

We have been over this ad-nauseam, and in one debate on this exact subject in particular I shut you down fairly hard with a highly detailed rebuttal post if I remember correctly. You had no comeback to what I laid down other than to parrot the opinions of others. I told you then that I respected your opinion on it, and I still do. But let's not be audacious enough to say it's "foolish" given the past arguments we've had here on the subject.

I remember that the word arguably was used and that was why I lost that poll/debate. I am talking about people who don't say that it was debatable during any given year, I am talking about those who say that he never was and that it's not debatable... To me, that is foolish.

Also, I could argue that during Lebron's reign at the top when he was the "clear cut" best, the competition was down from where Kobe was at his peak. Though, 2006, 2007, and 2008 were pretty clear cut IMO. In 2009 and 2010 he had Lebron to contend with and that was the only thing that made it debatable IMO. Would Lebron have been the clear cut best in 2003, 2004, or 2005??? Or even 2006, 2007, or 2008 for that matter??? He would have had Duncan, Kobe, T-Mac to compete with in 2003. KG, Duncan, Kobe and T-Mac in 2004. Kobe, Shaq, KG, Duncan, T-Mac in 2005. Kobe and Wade in 2006-2008. The competition at the top was much better IMO in the 2000's than in 2011-2013. We all know that if prime Shaq was still around it would have been debatable for sure. Now that KD is coming into his own it's all of the sudden not so clear cut for Lebron anymore. The whole clear cut argument could be more to do with timing than with sheer dominance over the game of basketball.

tredigs
01-31-2014, 05:47 AM
^Fair, Amo.

Supreme LA
01-31-2014, 05:58 AM
I remember that the word arguably was used and that was why I lost that poll/debate. I am talking about people who don't say that it was debatable during any given year, I am talking about those who say that he never was and that it's not debatable... To me, that is foolish.

Also, I could argue that during Lebron's reign at the top when he was the "clear cut" best, the competition was down from where Kobe was at his peak. Though, 2006, 2007, and 2008 were pretty clear cut IMO. In 2009 and 2010 he had Lebron to contend with and that was the only thing that made it debatable IMO. Would Lebron have been the clear cut best in 2003, 2004, or 2005??? Or even 2006, 2007, or 2008 for that matter??? He would have had Duncan, Kobe, T-Mac to compete with in 2003. KG, Duncan, Kobe and T-Mac in 2004. Kobe, Shaq, KG, Duncan, T-Mac in 2005. Kobe and Wade in 2006-2008. The competition at the top was much better IMO in the 2000's than in 2011-2013. We all know that if prime Shaq was still around it would have been debatable for sure. Now that KD is coming into his own it's all of the sudden not so clear cut for Lebron anymore. The whole clear cut argument could be more to do with timing than with sheer dominance over the game of basketball.

^Very good point.

holditdown
01-31-2014, 12:11 PM
rolf i love how people here are trying to take away what kobe have done.

like how kobe never was best player in the league. well nba players, nba coaches, and nba legends said kobe was the best in the league plenty of time so i rather listen to them than you fans here nice try though troll

Why is it such an insult to say he was never the best player in the league? There was stiff competition at the very top during Kobe's career. He was not better than Shaq. He was not better than Duncan. He was not better than LeBron.

He's at the top of that 2nd tier of players which would include Dirk, Garnett, Wade and himself.

What's the disgrace in that? Kobe is one of the hardest workers ever. He extracted every last ounce of ability out of his athleticism and skillset.

If that's not good enough for Kobe stans then boo hoo. I'd love to have a career like that.

beliges
01-31-2014, 01:27 PM
rolf i love how people here are trying to take away what kobe have done.

like how kobe never was best player in the league. well nba players, nba coaches, and nba legends said kobe was the best in the league plenty of time so i rather listen to them than you fans here nice try though troll

Why is it such an insult to say he was never the best player in the league? There was stiff competition at the very top during Kobe's career. He was not better than Shaq. He was not better than Duncan. He was not better than LeBron.

He's at the top of that 2nd tier of players which would include Dirk, Garnett, Wade and himself.

What's the disgrace in that? Kobe is one of the hardest workers ever. He extracted every last ounce of ability out of his athleticism and skillset.

If that's not good enough for Kobe stans then boo hoo. I'd love to have a career like that.

Dude you do realize that kobe is objectively one of the top 8 greatest players to ever play the game right? Neither shaq, nor duncan or lebron or wade and anybody else since MJ won more than kobe. Not sure if people just like stirring stuff up.or actually believe some of the things they say. Fortunately however, history and facts will.always trump opinions.

beliges
01-31-2014, 01:32 PM
Winning with talent is much more indicative of dominance than individual stats.

Your role, coaching, teammates, competition, injuries, etc. all play a role in winning. This is why horry won 6 (he won with talent, your exact words).

If you would like to explain your reasoning, reply to my other post.

All of those things play a role in.individual stats and MVPs as well. At the end of tgr day certain players step.up and win more than.other players. This has always been the theme of the NBA. The best of the best win. From MJ to Kareem to Magic, Kobe, Bird etc...The greats win and are able to do it time and time again. If MJ was only able to get two or three titles instead of six and put up the same numbers, would you consider him.the GOAT? I doubt it.

Chronz
01-31-2014, 01:51 PM
Dude you do realize that kobe is objectively one of the top 8 greatest players to ever play the game right? Neither shaq, nor duncan or lebron or wade and anybody else since MJ won more than kobe. Not sure if people just like stirring stuff up.or actually believe some of the things they say. Fortunately however, history and facts will.always trump opinions.
Cutting to the chase, what does your top-8 look like? Is Hondo and his plethora of rings, among those 8? What about Elvin Hayes?

Chronz
01-31-2014, 01:58 PM
All of those things play a role in.individual stats and MVPs as well. At the end of tgr day certain players step.up and win more than.other players.
Thats actually not always true, at the end of the day, certain players can step up and still lose, thats how much of a team game this is, its why a guy like Kobe/KG can be arguably the best player in the game, miss the playoffs or get knocked out in R.1 and then go and join a different set of teammates and win the whole thing.


This has always been the theme of the NBA. The best of the best win. From MJ to Kareem to Magic, Kobe, Bird etc...The greats win and are able to do it time and time again.
Maybe, but it doesn't mean every championship is created equally, for example, if MJ had stopped at 5 titles and Kobe had somehow won a championship in the 99 lockout, playing as mediocre as he did in 2000, his 6 titles would not trump MJ's 5, the same way Hondo's 8 dont trump MJ's 6. Nor does Elvin Hayes get to go ahead of the ringless Charles Barkley/Kevin Garnet


If MJ was only able to get two or three titles instead of six and put up the same numbers, would you consider him.the GOAT? I doubt it.
Actually, the GOAT talk started after his 2nd title, by the time he retired with 3, the convo had swayed in her favor.

Jamiecballer
01-31-2014, 01:59 PM
Dude you do realize that kobe is objectively one of the top 8 greatest players to ever play the game right? Neither shaq, nor duncan or lebron or wade and anybody else since MJ won more than kobe. Not sure if people just like stirring stuff up.or actually believe some of the things they say. Fortunately however, history and facts will.always trump opinions.

what i bolded is definitely true but i'm not sure that's going to work out for you the way you think it will. the eye test is your best friend here.

beliges
01-31-2014, 04:39 PM
Thats actually not always true, at the end of the day, certain players can step up and still lose, thats how much of a team game this is, its why a guy like Kobe/KG can be arguably the best player in the game, miss the playoffs or get knocked out in R.1 and then go and join a different set of teammates and win the whole thing.


Maybe, but it doesn't mean every championship is created equally, for example, if MJ had stopped at 5 titles and Kobe had somehow won a championship in the 99 lockout, playing as mediocre as he did in 2000, his 6 titles would not trump MJ's 5, the same way Hondo's 8 dont trump MJ's 6. Nor does Elvin Hayes get to go ahead of the ringless Charles Barkley/Kevin Garnet


Actually, the GOAT talk started after his 2nd title, by the time he retired with 3, the convo had swayed in her favor.

I am not saying its not a team game because clearly it is. However, the best of the best ALWAYS win. Its always been like that. Furthermore, I was comparing players who played on spectacular teams so its all even. Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron all have spectacular teams and each was able to win. I think it says a lot about a player by the number of times he was able to win with a great team.

Furthermore, winning in and of itself is not indicative of greatness. Clearly there needs to be some combination of winning + individual performance + individual statistics. However, in my opinion, winning trumps statistics.

Furthermore, if MJ won 5 and Kobe won 6 lets say, MJ would still be the GOAT by a majority of fans because his performances and his numbers were fairly better than Kobe's. However, if MJ got only two titles playing for those teams, not a chance he would be considered better than Magic or Bird or Kareem or the other greats before him that won more.

This is all just my opinion. I think people today put too much weight on statistics. Stats do not always translate into winning, and winning is the definition of true dominance.

tredigs
01-31-2014, 04:46 PM
^Shame that according to your theory Kobe was such an underwhelming and non truly dominant player during his years of peak ability.

RocketLoc80
01-31-2014, 04:48 PM
^Shame that according to your theory Kobe was such an underwhelming and non truly dominant player during his years of peak ability.

Yea ok the same way you don`t Lebron his due at all

tredigs
01-31-2014, 04:58 PM
Yea ok the same way you don`t Lebron his due at all

Where did you come from, and why don't you understand anything? Go away.

RocketLoc80
01-31-2014, 05:06 PM
Where did you come from, and why don't you understand anything? Go away.

Yea ok fake PC gangster got damn man I am just stating the obvious trolling around here man. Listen I want to know your top 10 NBA Players ever

nastynice
01-31-2014, 05:13 PM
Why is it such an insult to say he was never the best player in the league? There was stiff competition at the very top during Kobe's career. He was not better than Shaq. He was not better than Duncan. He was not better than LeBron.

He's at the top of that 2nd tier of players which would include Dirk, Garnett, Wade and himself.

What's the disgrace in that? Kobe is one of the hardest workers ever. He extracted every last ounce of ability out of his athleticism and skillset.

If that's not good enough for Kobe stans then boo hoo. I'd love to have a career like that.

lol, c'mon man. I have no beef with people when they want to argue who's the best between a handful of players, that's fine, everyone has different opinions. But Kobe was CLEARLY a top tier player for near a decade. I'm not saying he was the best, but he was in the conversation for the best. If you are in the conversation for the best, then you are in the top tier.

mngopher35
02-01-2014, 01:17 AM
All of those things play a role in.individual stats and MVPs as well. At the end of tgr day certain players step.up and win more than.other players. This has always been the theme of the NBA. The best of the best win. From MJ to Kareem to Magic, Kobe, Bird etc...The greats win and are able to do it time and time again. If MJ was only able to get two or three titles instead of six and put up the same numbers, would you consider him.the GOAT? I doubt it.

But star players like Pippen also won a ton and he is not an all time great like those guys (top 10). In your ranking he must be better than barkley and malone right?

Lebron has played in Miami for 3 years and has 2 titles. He had no chance to win with that Cleveland team. No one has won with a cast like that before.

3RDASYSTEM
02-01-2014, 01:41 AM
lol, c'mon man. I have no beef with people when they want to argue who's the best between a handful of players, that's fine, everyone has different opinions. But Kobe was CLEARLY a top tier player for near a decade. I'm not saying he was the best, but he was in the conversation for the best. If you are in the conversation for the best, then you are in the top tier.

So minus the 5 rings and 81pts he was basically MELO before MELO like I said

now is MELO ranked anywhere near any mediahype top 10 players of all time?

la hype mixed with 5 rings and scoring binges was reason he was top tier, and those overrated game winning jumpers he would hit, after almost shooting his team out the game that they wouldn't show on espn

3RDASYSTEM
02-01-2014, 01:46 AM
I remember that the word arguably was used and that was why I lost that poll/debate. I am talking about people who don't say that it was debatable during any given year, I am talking about those who say that he never was and that it's not debatable... To me, that is foolish.

Also, I could argue that during Lebron's reign at the top when he was the "clear cut" best, the competition was down from where Kobe was at his peak. Though, 2006, 2007, and 2008 were pretty clear cut IMO. In 2009 and 2010 he had Lebron to contend with and that was the only thing that made it debatable IMO. Would Lebron have been the clear cut best in 2003, 2004, or 2005??? Or even 2006, 2007, or 2008 for that matter??? He would have had Duncan, Kobe, T-Mac to compete with in 2003. KG, Duncan, Kobe and T-Mac in 2004. Kobe, Shaq, KG, Duncan, T-Mac in 2005. Kobe and Wade in 2006-2008. The competition at the top was much better IMO in the 2000's than in 2011-2013. We all know that if prime Shaq was still around it would have been debatable for sure. Now that KD is coming into his own it's all of the sudden not so clear cut for Lebron anymore. The whole clear cut argument could be more to do with timing than with sheer dominance over the game of basketball.

Cut it out comparing a backupguard to those dominant day 1 legends

and how dare you leave out the player who finished runner up to SHAQ in 00' mvp race and won it year after

now I understand why you never played the game before

jerellh528
02-01-2014, 02:48 AM
Cut it out comparing a backupguard to those dominant day 1 legends

and how dare you leave out the player who finished runner up to SHAQ in 00' mvp race and won it year after

now I understand why you never played the game before

Hahahahahahahah. A backup guard. Hahahahah. Now we all know you've never played ball before, if anything it's more impressive that Kobe put in the work and fought his way to the top instead of being crowned a chosen one from the gate.

nastynice
02-01-2014, 04:38 AM
So minus the 5 rings and 81pts he was basically MELO before MELO like I said

now is MELO ranked anywhere near any mediahype top 10 players of all time?

la hype mixed with 5 rings and scoring binges was reason he was top tier, and those overrated game winning jumpers he would hit, after almost shooting his team out the game that they wouldn't show on espn

I don't get this post, ur saying kobe and melo are basically the same player minus the hype?

Supreme LA
02-01-2014, 05:52 AM
So minus the 5 rings and 81pts he was basically MELO before MELO like I said

now is MELO ranked anywhere near any mediahype top 10 players of all time?

la hype mixed with 5 rings and scoring binges was reason he was top tier, and those overrated game winning jumpers he would hit, after almost shooting his team out the game that they wouldn't show on espn

Whoa. The hate is strong in this one.

holditdown
02-01-2014, 10:40 AM
lol, c'mon man. I have no beef with people when they want to argue who's the best between a handful of players, that's fine, everyone has different opinions. But Kobe was CLEARLY a top tier player for near a decade. I'm not saying he was the best, but he was in the conversation for the best. If you are in the conversation for the best, then you are in the top tier.

Wade, Garnett and Kobe were in all the "conversation" for best NBA player at one point. At least during a year or few years. That doesn't mean they are in the same tiers as Duncan, Shaq and LeBron.

beliges
02-01-2014, 07:37 PM
All of those things play a role in.individual stats and MVPs as well. At the end of tgr day certain players step.up and win more than.other players. This has always been the theme of the NBA. The best of the best win. From MJ to Kareem to Magic, Kobe, Bird etc...The greats win and are able to do it time and time again. If MJ was only able to get two or three titles instead of six and put up the same numbers, would you consider him.the GOAT? I doubt it.

But star players like Pippen also won a ton and he is not an all time great like those guys (top 10). In your ranking he must be better than barkley and malone right?

Lebron has played in Miami for 3 years and has 2 titles. He had no chance to win with that Cleveland team. No one has won with a cast like that before.

Pippen is probably the greatest perimeter defender of all time and one of the top 25 players to ever play the game. But he's not a player you can build championships around.

And you're right lebron has won 2 titles in 3 years in Miami. That's a great accomplishment but not enough to propel him above the all timers. Other players like MJ, kobe, magic, shaq duncan, kareem all were able to win at least twice as many titles with similar talent. Lebron needs to keep winning. That's all there is to it. His numbers are great but its all about winning. He doesn't get a free pass. Then there's always gonna be the argument that he couldn't do it without Wade AND bosh. Only time will tell where lbj ends up amongst the greats but one thing is certain, he needs to keep winning titles if he wants to be on the sane level as the above referenced guys.

mngopher35
02-01-2014, 08:39 PM
Pippen is probably the greatest perimeter defender of all time and one of the top 25 players to ever play the game. But he's not a player you can build championships around.

And you're right lebron has won 2 titles in 3 years in Miami. That's a great accomplishment but not enough to propel him above the all timers. Other players like MJ, kobe, magic, shaq duncan, kareem all were able to win at least twice as many titles with similar talent. Lebron needs to keep winning. That's all there is to it. His numbers are great but its all about winning. He doesn't get a free pass. Then there's always gonna be the argument that he couldn't do it without Wade AND bosh. Only time will tell where lbj ends up amongst the greats but one thing is certain, he needs to keep winning titles if he wants to be on the sane level as the above referenced guys.

True but Scottie isn't in the top 10. It's because winning as the second best player on the team is different than being the best. That's why counting rings like you're doing doesn't work.

Lebron does need to win more, but he is right there behind Kobe as we speak, he doesn't need to get 5 rings (neither do shaq or Duncan). If he wins one more with a fmvp he would pass Kobe on the all time list (fmvps more important than rings and he has the mvps and dominance to overcome the difference in longevity)

As for winning without Wade and Bosh, look at their performance the last two playoffs (and injuries). They haven't played nearly as great as you make it sound. Look at what Bird and Magic had throughout their careers. Look what Shaq and Kobe have had throughout theirs. Jordan had great teams when he was winning. I don't think we will have to question if he can win without help at all. We don't for the other players.

nastynice
02-01-2014, 08:44 PM
Wade, Garnett and Kobe were in all the "conversation" for best NBA player at one point. At least during a year or few years. That doesn't mean they are in the same tiers as Duncan, Shaq and LeBron.

I understand, but being in that conversation for 2-4 years is different than being in it for 6-8 years.

nastynice
02-01-2014, 08:44 PM
Whoa. The hate is strong in this one.

lol, true, I had to double take that post. I was like...the ****?!?

beliges
02-01-2014, 10:23 PM
I remember that the word arguably was used and that was why I lost that poll/debate. I am talking about people who don't say that it was debatable during any given year, I am talking about those who say that he never was and that it's not debatable... To me, that is foolish.

Also, I could argue that during Lebron's reign at the top when he was the "clear cut" best, the competition was down from where Kobe was at his peak. Though, 2006, 2007, and 2008 were pretty clear cut IMO. In 2009 and 2010 he had Lebron to contend with and that was the only thing that made it debatable IMO. Would Lebron have been the clear cut best in 2003, 2004, or 2005??? Or even 2006, 2007, or 2008 for that matter??? He would have had Duncan, Kobe, T-Mac to compete with in 2003. KG, Duncan, Kobe and T-Mac in 2004. Kobe, Shaq, KG, Duncan, T-Mac in 2005. Kobe and Wade in 2006-2008. The competition at the top was much better IMO in the 2000's than in 2011-2013. We all know that if prime Shaq was still around it would have been debatable for sure. Now that KD is coming into his own it's all of the sudden not so clear cut for Lebron anymore. The whole clear cut argument could be more to do with timing than with sheer dominance over the game of basketball.

Cut it out comparing a backupguard to those dominant day 1 legends

and how dare you leave out the player who finished runner up to SHAQ in 00' mvp race and won it year after

now I understand why you never played the game before

Dude at least just try to be objective. It is almost indisputable that kobe is one of the 8 greatest players to ever play the game. There is no opinion that will change the mans accomplishments.

Jamiecballer
02-01-2014, 11:10 PM
Dude at least just try to be objective. It is almost indisputable that kobe is one of the 8 greatest players to ever play the game. There is no opinion that will change the mans accomplishments.

LOL are you ****ing kidding me? I know most people would have him in the top 20 or so, but 8?

ManRam
02-01-2014, 11:15 PM
http://i60.tinypic.com/zvrc08.png

Life is good.

i'llsift thru this tomorrow. i see it's turned into a kirby thread, tho

Kaner
02-02-2014, 12:17 AM
Dude at least just try to be objective. It is almost indisputable that kobe is one of the 8 greatest players to ever play the game. There is no opinion that will change the mans accomplishments.

That is very very disputable...

8 guys that I think easily are better players: Jordan, Wilt, Russel, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Duncan, and Shaq. then theirs at least 10 more guys that are 'arguably' better

beliges
02-02-2014, 12:28 AM
Dude at least just try to be objective. It is almost indisputable that kobe is one of the 8 greatest players to ever play the game. There is no opinion that will change the mans accomplishments.

That is very very disputable...

8 guys that I think easily are better players: Jordan, Wilt, Russel, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Duncan, and Shaq. then theirs at least 10 more guys that are 'arguably' better

Your opinion-wise im sure there are 100s of guys that are better. However accomplishment-wise there are no more than a handful. Those guys mentioned above all have at least 4 championships besides Wilt and Lebron. Although many consider Wilt a top 10 because of his sheer individual dominance. When you can average godly numbers like that you deserve to be in that top 10 regardless of the lack of winning.

Supreme LA
02-02-2014, 06:28 AM
LOL are you ****ing kidding me? I know most people would have him in the top 20 or so, but 8?

I don't know where you get that from. From my experience Kobe is ranked in the top 10 all-time by most basketball enthusiasts, with some Kobe haters having him right at 10. I'm sorry if this comes as news you but it's pretty much the consensus.

Maybe it's just the people in your circle jerk?

Supreme LA
02-02-2014, 06:32 AM
That is very very disputable...

8 guys that I think easily are better players: Jordan, Wilt, Russel, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Duncan, and Shaq. then theirs at least 10 more guys that are 'arguably' better

I think it's a stretch to say Duncan is easily better than Kobe all-time. It's certainly debatable IMO.

I also see you've moved Lebron ahead of Kobe in all-time ranking a bit prematurely. Lebron has a little ways to go when it comes to matching rings & longevity. I'm not saying it won't happen. I just think you're getting a little ahead of yourself because Lebron's career isn't anywhere near being over.

Jamiecballer
02-02-2014, 06:58 AM
I don't know where you get that from. From my experience Kobe is ranked in the top 10 all-time by most basketball enthusiasts, with some Kobe haters having him right at 10. I'm sorry if this comes as news you but it's pretty much the consensus.

Maybe it's just the people in your circle jerk?
some people place a high value on rings, sure. i think you will find though that the trend of using team achievements to rank players all-time standing is definitely losing steam.

more and more people are starting to look purely at the players individual contribution.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-02-2014, 07:05 AM
Lebron's domination of stats, advanced stats, efficiency, Mvps over Kobe easily compensates for Kobe's extra 3 rings.

Here's a fun fact: since 2003, including Kobe's 81 point game, Kobe's prime, and lebron's rookie season, lebron has score more than Kobe while attempting less than 500+ field goals.

Kobe is def top 10, but it's pretty obvious that lebron is the better overall player, better overall peak.
The only think Kobe has on bron is the his longevity.

Im_in_Mia_bish
02-02-2014, 07:08 AM
I think it's a stretch to say Duncan is easily better than Kobe all-time. It's certainly debatable IMO.

I also see you've moved Lebron ahead of Kobe in all-time ranking a bit prematurely. Lebron has a little ways to go when it comes to matching rings & longevity. I'm not saying it won't happen. I just think you're getting a little ahead of yourself because Lebron's career isn't anywhere near being over.

Duncan, lebron, and Kobe are interchangeable. Shaq IMO towers above these 3. At least for now..