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View Full Version : How Durant's Current Scoring Run Compares to Kobe's and LeBron's Best Runs



LakeShowRaider
01-22-2014, 07:52 PM
Great article on how Durant's run compares against Kobe's and LeBron's.

Kobe has averaged 40+ points during 3 different months of his career. Will Durant ever accomplish something like that?

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sbnation/SBNation_20140122_How_Kevin_Durant_s_scoring_binge _compares_to_Kobe_s_and_LeBron_s_best_runs.html


KD put up 46 points in a victory over the Blazers as his insane scoring run continues.

Kevin Durant is soaring to new heights this season, and his torrid stretch of play continued against the Portland Trail Blazers on Tuesday night in a 105-97 victory for the Oklahoma City Thunder.

Durant scored 46 points on 17-of-25 shooting, nailing 6-of-7 three-pointers and notching 11 points in the final three-plus minutes as the Thunder took control of the game.

Durant was so good that Blazers reserve guard Mo Williams questioned whether the Son of God himself could stop the scoring barrage:

With Russell Westbrook out, Durant has taken it upon himself to carry the Thunder, and his performance in the month of January has been stuff of legend. In 11 games this month, Durant is averaging 37.0 points, 5.9 assists and 5.6 rebounds while shooting 52.2 percent overall and 39.2 percent from three. He has three 40-point games, a 50-point game and has been under 30 points just twice.

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Durant has scored 30 points in eight straight games, averaging 39.3 points over that stretch. It's the second-longest such streak of his career, as he reached 30 points in nine consecutive games in 2010. However, that was spread out over two seasons.

Durant's numbers become historic when you narrow them down to the last three games. With his monster effort against the Blazers, Durant became the first player in NBA history to have three straight games with 30 or more points while shooting at least 66 percent overall and at least 55 percent from three. A handful of players, including Kevin Love, have reached those numbers two games in a row, but Durant is now the only one to do it in three consecutive games.

The run Durant is on brings back some memories of some other great stretches from some of the best scorers in the post-Jordan era. When LeBron James scored 30 points or more in 10 straight games during the 2005-06 season, he averaged 37.9 points. Tracy McGrady scored at least 30 points in 14 straight games in March 2003, averaging 37.4 points during that span.

And then there's Kobe Bean Bryant.

Bryant has had multiple insane stretches over the course of his career. In 2003, Bryant scored 30 points or more in a whopping 16 consecutive games. In the month most of those games occurred, he averaged 40.6 points.

During the 2005-06 season, Bryant had two months in which he scored over 40 points per game. In January 2006, the month he scored 81 against the Toronto Raptors, Bryant averaged 43.4 points. In April of that same year, he averaged 41.6 points while shooting nearly 51 percent overall and 41.3 percent from deep.

In March 2007, Bryant averaged 40.4 points, and this run included a five-game stretch in which he scored 65, 50, 60, 50 and 43 points. After a slight hiccup of a game with 23 points, he notched 53 points in the final game of the month.

While Durant's ongoing stretch may not be quite as gaudy as some of those from Bryant, it's just about as impressive due to the insane efficiency. While it required nearly 30 shots a game for Bryant to average over 40 points in those months, Durant is averaging his 37 points in January on just over 22 shots a game. If Durant was taking 30 shots a game the way he's playing now, it wouldn't be hard to imagine him putting up 45 a night.

Durant will look to continue his hot streak against the San Antonio Spurs on ESPN Wednesday.

jerellh528
01-22-2014, 08:06 PM
Durant is a beasssst!!! But there was no better pure scorer than bryant in the modern age of basketball.

LoveMeOrHateMe
01-22-2014, 08:07 PM
Truth be told ^^

poleandreel
01-22-2014, 08:08 PM
If KD took as many shots as Kobe did during those stretches, yes he could easily accomplish that. KD is a better scorer, shooter, finisher than Kobe is/was. The guy is averaging 40ppg on 50% shooting this month. I'm sure he could ratchet it up like this in other months while still shooting 45+% like kobe did.

Simply put, Durant >>> Kobe.

Im_in_Mia_bish
01-22-2014, 08:12 PM
^^Truth be told

5ass
01-22-2014, 08:12 PM
Id take durant over kobe easily.

ThuglifeJ
01-22-2014, 08:13 PM
If Durant scores 81 I can start writing off Kobe scoring wise.

LakeShowRaider
01-22-2014, 08:15 PM
If KD took as many shots as Kobe did during those stretches, yes he could easily accomplish that. KD is a better scorer, shooter, finisher than Kobe is/was. The guy is averaging 40ppg on 50% shooting this month. I'm sure he could ratchet it up like this in other months while still shooting 45+% like kobe did.

Simply put, Durant >>> Kobe.

Easily? I don't know about that. So is your argument that Durant is taking fewer shots? That's crazy. He's taken so many shots that he's making LeBron jealous. Durant may be more efficient but I wouldn't say he's better.

nastynice
01-22-2014, 08:17 PM
Durant is a beasssst!!! But there was no better pure scorer than bryant in the modern age of basketball.

As of this moment, I second this. Durant still has a good amount of years left, he may develop some more offensively.

But yea, kobe really did it all. Ball in his hand outside the three point line he could just pop it, could drive it, could put a move and shoot it off the dribble, drive and dish. In the post he could play with his back to the basket, facing the basket, shoot it with a hand in his face, shoot it off balance, shoot fadeaway, teardrop. At the basket he could stop on a dime and pop, head fake, reverse layup, or just straight up dunk on a 7 footer. He just had the most complete offensive game, he could pretty much almost do anything from any part of the court. It was only 5-7 years ago, I don't get how people forgot what he did so quickly. He was an amazing player to watch, his game was beautiful. minus the hero ball, that **** got pretty annoying sometimes

I'm excited to see what durant brings tho, he still has a lot of room to polish up parts of his game still and up his offensive game play.

Lebron's a different beast, he's really not the same type of player or scorer as the other two, what he brings to the table is just something completely different.

LakeShowRaider
01-22-2014, 08:18 PM
^^^Well said

poleandreel
01-22-2014, 08:19 PM
The last 5 times KD has taken 25+ shots, he has scored 40+ points

25 FGA 40 Points
28 FGA 54 Points
34 FGA 48 Points
32 FGA 48 Points

He also scored 35+ in 3 other games while barely hitting 22 shots. So yes, he could easily do it if he averaged 28 to 30 shots per game like Kobe did during that stretch.

poleandreel
01-22-2014, 08:24 PM
As of this moment, I second this. Durant still has a good amount of years left, he may develop some more offensively.

But yea, kobe really did it all. Ball in his hand outside the three point line he could just pop it, could drive it, could put a move and shoot it off the dribble, drive and dish. In the post he could play with his back to the basket, facing the basket, shoot it with a hand in his face, shoot it off balance, shoot fadeaway, teardrop. At the basket he could stop on a dime and pop, head fake, reverse layup, or just straight up dunk on a 7 footer. He just had the most complete offensive game, he could pretty much almost do anything from any part of the court. It was only 5-7 years ago, I don't get how people forgot what he did so quickly. He was an amazing player to watch, his game was beautiful. minus the hero ball, that **** got pretty annoying sometimes

I'm excited to see what durant brings tho, he still has a lot of room to polish up parts of his game still and up his offensive game play.

Lebron's a different beast, he's really not the same type of player or scorer as the other two, what he brings to the table is just something completely different.

You do realize that every single thing you said, KD can do too...right?

Ball in his hand outside the three point line he could just pop it: KD does at a more efficient clip than Kobe ever did
could drive it: KD can better than kobe
could put a move and shoot it off the dribble, drive and dish: KD can at a more efficient clip than Kobe and is averaging 5 assists per game
In the post he could play with his back to the basket: KD can
facing the basket: KD can better than kobe
shoot it with a hand in his face: KD can just as good as kobe
shoot it off balance: KD can better than kobe
shoot fadeaway: KD can
teardrop: KD can
At the basket he could stop on a dime and pop: KD can
head fake: KD can
reverse layup: KD can
or just straight up dunk on a 7 footer: KD can and has done plenty of times...

I don't understand how Kobe was a more complete offensive player when KD does everything kobe did, but more efficiently.

Chronz
01-22-2014, 08:26 PM
Quite possibly the best stretch of all-around brilliance I've seen since 03 Tmac after Orlando traded his best friend on the team mid season. It may just be a hot stretch but dear god is his efficiency off the charts good, I dont know if we've ever seen anything like this (usage+passing+efficiency combo)

DreamShaker
01-22-2014, 08:27 PM
2006 Kobe was fun. But when Kwame and Smush are in your starting lineup, you gotta put the team on your back. I personally love huge scoring stretches.

holditdown
01-22-2014, 08:30 PM
KD far too efficient for Kobe to compare.

Tony_Starks
01-22-2014, 08:52 PM
43 points for the entire month on 50% fg and almost 40% 3pt is completely insane. In particular when half your team is basically D leagers and everyone knows where the ball is going and STILL can't stop it. Not to mention 81.

KD is by far the nicest scorer in the league now but Kobe back in his hayday was doing video game numbers.....

albertajaysfan
01-22-2014, 08:59 PM
Why this obsession with the best with some people here?

All of the above stretches have been brilliant and a treat to watch as a basketball fan.

ILLUSIONIST^248
01-22-2014, 09:03 PM
:laugh: The Kobe haters never give up!

RLundi
01-22-2014, 09:14 PM
I can't stand Lakers homers. Worst sort of people.

jerellh528
01-22-2014, 09:28 PM
I can't stand Lakers homers. Worst sort of people.

Yea die hard fans are right up there with rapists and drug dealers :rolleyes:

koreancabbage
01-22-2014, 09:51 PM
I can't stand Lakers homers. Worst sort of people.

they are Kobe homers. I rather talk to Laker homers b/c they don't beat their meat to Kobe like these Kobe fans here do.

PowerHouse
01-22-2014, 10:05 PM
Im not a Kobe homer but anybody with any basketball IQ should have a laugh at people comparing Durant's current streak with any of Kobe's. During the 06-07 season Kobe had a streak of 4 consecutive 50 point games and then on the 5th game he had an "off" night with only 43 points.

Not to mention during the 02-03 season when Kobe dropped 40 or more for 9 games in a row, 2 of which were 50 plus.

PowerHouse
01-22-2014, 10:07 PM
I can't stand Lakers homers. Worst sort of people.

Inorite? Way worse than child molesters.

J4KOP99
01-22-2014, 10:19 PM
Quite possibly the best stretch of all-around brilliance I've seen since 03 Tmac after Orlando traded his best friend on the team mid season. It may just be a hot stretch but dear god is his efficiency off the charts good, I dont know if we've ever seen anything like this (usage+passing+efficiency combo)

Kobe 4 straight of 50+ and they won all 4 of the games. His team was ****ing garbage too. If Durant or LeBron were to do that today, John Anderson's head would explode on a live edition of Sportcenter and Twitter would be no more.

holditdown
01-22-2014, 10:22 PM
Kobe 4 straight of 50+ and they won all 4 of the games. His team was ****ing garbage too. If Durant or LeBron were to do that today, John Anderson's head would explode on a live edition of Sportcenter and Twitter would be no more.

Durant is a more efficient player though. You can't just throw up points without looking at efficiency.

Matter.
01-22-2014, 10:22 PM
The thing you gguys don't mention is the team each had

ThaDubs
01-22-2014, 10:23 PM
I love Kobe so much, but Durant is more efficient, a better rebounder, a better passer, and a better defender now, than Kobe EVER was. And that is seriously not me hating on Kobe.

J4KOP99
01-22-2014, 10:24 PM
March 16, 2007:http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/boxscores/los-angeles-lakers-vs-portland-trail-blazers/2007-03-16/07/13

March 18:http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/boxscores/los-angeles-lakers-vs-minnesota-timberwolves/2007-03-18/07/13

March 22:http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/boxscores/los-angeles-lakers-vs-memphis-grizzlies/2007-03-22/07/13

March 23:http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/boxscores/los-angeles-lakers-vs-new-orleans-hornets/2007-03-23/07/13

J4KOP99
01-22-2014, 10:28 PM
Durant is a more efficient player though. You can't just throw up points without looking at efficiency.

lol, who gives a ****? We're talking about marginal differences in these stretches and both teams were/are winning. Do you take into consideration that the Lakers team from 06/07 was god awful? No, you don't. If Kobe was putting up 60 and the team was losing by 15 then I'll listen to you but not when comparing stretches like these. They play different styles, Kobe is about 5 inches shorter than Durant and plays and defends farther from the basket.

If you want to debate about who the better all-around player is, then of course we can talk about efficiency and usg rate and all that good stuff, but not on these stretches.

ThaDubs
01-22-2014, 10:32 PM
March 16, 2007:http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/boxscores/los-angeles-lakers-vs-portland-trail-blazers/2007-03-16/07/13

March 18:http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/boxscores/los-angeles-lakers-vs-minnesota-timberwolves/2007-03-18/07/13

March 22:http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/boxscores/los-angeles-lakers-vs-memphis-grizzlies/2007-03-22/07/13

March 23:http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/boxscores/los-angeles-lakers-vs-new-orleans-hornets/2007-03-23/07/13

That is truly incredible, but Kevin Durant passes a lot more than Kobe.

holditdown
01-22-2014, 10:35 PM
lol, who gives a ****? We're talking about marginal differences in these stretches and both teams were/are winning. Do you take into consideration that the Lakers team from 06/07 was god awful? No, you don't. If Kobe was putting up 60 and the team was losing by 15 then I'll listen to you but not when comparing stretches like these. They play different styles, Kobe is about 5 inches shorter than Durant and plays and defends farther from the basket.

If you want to debate about who the better all-around player is, then of course we can talk about efficiency and usg rate and all that good stuff, but not on these stretches.

Bad post. Anytime you discuss scoring you look at efficiency.

PowerHouse
01-22-2014, 10:37 PM
That is truly incredible, but Kevin Durant passes a lot more than Kobe.

False. Kobe Bryant career assist average: 4.8 per game
Kevin Durant's career assist average: 3.3 per game

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-22-2014, 10:39 PM
That is truly incredible, but Kevin Durant passes a lot more than Kobe.

I am sorry what? Are you saying for this stretch? Or for their careers?

bucketss
01-22-2014, 10:39 PM
we haven't seen a scorer as great as durant since jordan.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-22-2014, 10:40 PM
Bad post. Anytime you discuss scoring you look at efficiency.

And when you are comparing scoring stretches in a thread you should discuss efficiency during said stretches. At which point Kobe was ultra efficient.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-22-2014, 10:42 PM
we haven't seen a scorer as great as durant since jordan.

Durant is a better scorer than Jordan

J4KOP99
01-22-2014, 10:42 PM
Bad post. Anytime you discuss scoring you look at efficiency.

And when you are comparing scoring stretches in a thread you should discuss efficiency during said stretches. At which point Kobe was ultra efficient.

I realized that guy is either talking about something entirely different or just doesn't know what he's saying...

Now I remember why I try not to venture Into the nba forum

PowerHouse
01-22-2014, 10:45 PM
Bad post. Anytime you discuss scoring you look at efficiency.

Durant's efficiency has been extremely impressive to say the least but one thing we must realize is that Durant is a forward, Kobe is a guard. Durant gets a lot of post ups and closer looks at the rim because of that. Kobe is more of a perimeter shooter because that is his role. To make a long story short, when a star guard is being compared to a star forward, the forward is supposed to have a higher efficiency.

LakeShowRaider
01-22-2014, 10:47 PM
The thing you gguys don't mention is the team each had

Who is in your sig???

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-22-2014, 10:54 PM
Advanced numbers show that Durant is a better scorer than MJ. Durant as well as a number of other NBA players have taken advantage of the fact that basketball has evolved and players build on new knowledge regarding the game. It is now taught that a long range two pointer is the worst shot in basketball. Shooting at the rim, taking a 3, and getting to the line is the best way to play.

In Jordan's day, he would look at you cross eyed if you brought up advanced stats and TS%. He was just playing to play the game. If he knew then what we know now, he would not have settled for awesome mid range game once he could no longer attack the basket. He would have developed a 3 point game instead and improved his ts%. Because he didn't, he has only a 1% advantage over chucker Kobe in TS% for his career.

Durant, Curry, Harden and many other players going forward are going to be much more efficient in the future. More efficient than Jordan, Kobe and all the other great scorers of the past. Is Harden a better scorer than Jordan and Kobe? Hell no. But his style of play is taylor made for advanced stats.

Supreme LA
01-22-2014, 10:56 PM
Bad post. Anytime you discuss scoring you look at efficiency.

Do you even know what you're talking about???

It's always the blind hatred for Kobe that baits reactions even if they aren't intended to do so. PSD loves to knock and pick at all of Kobe's successes, but truth be told, Kobe's stretch of games with scoring were out of this world and KD still comes up short.

ThaDubs
01-22-2014, 10:57 PM
False. Kobe Bryant career assist average: 4.8 per game
Kevin Durant's career assist average: 3.3 per game

Lol in a thread where we are talking about scoring runs, you bring up a career stat? Are you trying to look like a dunce? In this scoring run he's averaged 6 assists, and on the season he is average 5.

holditdown
01-22-2014, 10:58 PM
Durant's efficiency has been extremely impressive to say the least but one thing we must realize is that Durant is a forward, Kobe is a guard. Durant gets a lot of post ups and closer looks at the rim because of that. Kobe is more of a perimeter shooter because that is his role. To make a long story short, when a star guard is being compared to a star forward, the forward is supposed to have a higher efficiency.

Shooting Guard, Small Forward. Same thing, wing players.

ThaDubs
01-22-2014, 10:59 PM
Durant's efficiency has been extremely impressive to say the least but one thing we must realize is that Durant is a forward, Kobe is a guard. Durant gets a lot of post ups and closer looks at the rim because of that. Kobe is more of a perimeter shooter because that is his role. To make a long story short, when a star guard is being compared to a star forward, the forward is supposed to have a higher efficiency.

Please stop posting.

ThaDubs
01-22-2014, 11:01 PM
I am sorry what? Are you saying for this stretch? Or for their careers?

For this stretch.

Chronz
01-22-2014, 11:03 PM
Kobe 4 straight of 50+ and they won all 4 of the games. His team was ****ing garbage too. If Durant or LeBron were to do that today, John Anderson's head would explode on a live edition of Sportcenter and Twitter would be no more.
They done similarly well, great stretches. Need more statistical facts before I put any sort of stock into a single number like PPG.

koreancabbage
01-22-2014, 11:03 PM
Advanced numbers show that Durant is a better scorer than MJ. Durant as well as a number of other NBA players have taken advantage of the fact that basketball has evolved and players build on new knowledge regarding the game. It is now taught that a long range two pointer is the worst shot in basketball. Shooting at the rim, taking a 3, and getting to the line is the best way to play.

In Jordan's day, he would look at you cross eyed if you brought up advanced stats and TS%. He was just playing to play the game. If he knew then what we know now, he would not have settled for awesome mid range game once he could no longer attack the basket. He would have developed a 3 point game instead and improved his ts%. Because he didn't, he has only a 1% advantage over chucker Kobe in TS% for his career.

Durant, Curry, Harden and many other players going forward are going to be much more efficient in the future. More efficient than Jordan, Kobe and all the other great scorers of the past. Is Harden a better scorer than Jordan and Kobe? Hell no. But his style of play is taylor made for advanced stats.

even though the mid range game is a lost art - you think Durant is going to be thinking about shooting percentages and shooting from either at the rim and 3 point line during the game???? You also forget to realize that big men can't stay in the paint anymore. the paint is more open than it used to be. Now that big men have to come out of the paint the two point area is crowded. obviously the logical way of scoring would be driving to the rim or taking the 3 pointer.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-22-2014, 11:09 PM
even though the mid range game is a lost art - you think Durant is going to be thinking about shooting percentages and shooting from either at the rim and 3 point line during the game???? You also forget to realize that big men can't stay in the paint anymore. the paint is more open than it used to be. Now that big men have to come out of the paint the two point area is crowded. obviously the logical way of scoring would be driving to the rim or taking the 3 pointer.

I don't think he or anyone else is thinking about their ts% during the game. But they are taught during film session and practice that they are aiming for points in the paint or behind the 3 point line. He is just going to follow strategy and reap the benefits of looking ultra efficient compared to players of the past who were not taught to play this way. In the 80's and 90's, hardly anybody shot 3 pointers. We now know that is one of the best shots in basketball.

Lebron commented on this himself. He said that Spolstra taught him to stop bailing teams out with a long two pointer. He said he was now only going to focus on getting to the rim or shooting behind the line. His TS% has skyrocketed since then.

Chronz
01-22-2014, 11:13 PM
Advanced numbers show that Durant is a better scorer than MJ. Durant as well as a number of other NBA players have taken advantage of the fact that basketball has evolved and players build on new knowledge regarding the game. It is now taught that a long range two pointer is the worst shot in basketball. Shooting at the rim, taking a 3, and getting to the line is the best way to play.

In Jordan's day, he would look at you cross eyed if you brought up advanced stats and TS%. He was just playing to play the game. If he knew then what we know now, he would not have settled for awesome mid range game once he could no longer attack the basket. He would have developed a 3 point game instead and improved his ts%. Because he didn't, he has only a 1% advantage over chucker Kobe in TS% for his career.

Durant, Curry, Harden and many other players going forward are going to be much more efficient in the future. More efficient than Jordan, Kobe and all the other great scorers of the past. Is Harden a better scorer than Jordan and Kobe? Hell no. But his style of play is taylor made for advanced stats.
Someone's been listening to Max lately.

They get smarter and thus are better players is all you're saying, you can still look at how they fared vs their era if you want to go that route. Whichever route you go MJ was ALOT more efficient than the next era imitation in Kobe, which according to the era excuse is damaging to Kobe's legacy, either way limiting the barometer to career ts% doesn't speak on anything. Nobody cares about Wizards MJ or teenage Kobe. And TS% without usage is always irrelevant.

Looking at Bulls MJ vs Kobe through the same age, the TS% is far different and more importantly, despite the higher usage, MJ sports the far better O-RTG, about 8 PTS higher.

Tony_Starks
01-22-2014, 11:21 PM
That is truly incredible, but Kevin Durant passes a lot more than Kobe.

To be fair when he was going bezerk his passing options were players like Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Devean George, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, and the great Kwame Brown.

Kobe shooting in volume was the only remote chance of winning, and he still took those garbage squads to the playoffs in a stacked West.....

PowerHouse
01-22-2014, 11:27 PM
Lol in a thread where we are talking about scoring runs, you bring up a career stat? Are you trying to look like a dunce? In this scoring run he's averaged 6 assists, and on the season he is average 5.

Lol in a thread thats talking about scoring, you brought up passing? It all started with you so you are the dunce here. You made a very general comment about "Durant passes a lot more than Kobe" so that opens the door to anybody to make a general reply to it. Were you referring to just the last 7-8 games? Kobe has been out. Were you referring to just this year? Durant is averaging 5.1 and Kobe 6.3, any way you slice it you're an idiot.

PowerHouse
01-22-2014, 11:28 PM
Please stop posting.

Of course by all means. Your happiness is of the utmost importance.

Chronz
01-22-2014, 11:45 PM
To be fair when he was going bezerk his passing options were players like Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Devean George, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, and the great Kwame Brown.

Kobe shooting in volume was the only remote chance of winning, and he still took those garbage squads to the playoffs in a stacked West.....
BTW, remember when he had Caron Butler + Lamar Odom? Was that more talent than the very next year in your opinion?

Tony_Starks
01-22-2014, 11:59 PM
BTW, remember when he had Caron Butler + Lamar Odom? Was that more talent than the very next year in your opinion?

Hard for me to say cuz Caron and Kobe both took turns being hurt that season and they tried to turn LO into the second option which he clearly wasn't comfortable with, so there was zero continuity. Not to mention the Rudy T debacle.

I wouldn't have minded seeing what Phil could've did with those three healthy in the triangle though...

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 12:14 AM
Someone's been listening to Max lately.

Kellerman? I always try to. I like their show. But what why are you saying this?


They get smarter and thus are better players is all you're saying,

Not sure I would say better players. Different eras is a better way to put it. Like I said, give MJ today's knowledge and style of play, I believe he would not be getting dwarfed like he is to LBJ and Durant.


you can still look at how they fared vs their era if you want to go that route. Whichever route you go MJ was ALOT more efficient than the next era imitation in Kobe, which according to the era excuse is damaging to Kobe's legacy

Would you say Kobe was in this era of the open floor game? I would say he patterned his game identical to Mikes. Kobe loves the long range two point shot. To him that is what is missing in todays game. He loves the mid range game like they used to when he was growing up. When would you say this new age NBA came about? I would say very recently. Kobe is way past learning a new style of play. You cant teach an old dog new tricks. Especially one as stubborn as him. Unfortunately for him he fell in love with the style of play from one of the greatest to ever do it. But that mid range two point shot has been proven to be the worst shot in basketball.


either way limiting the barometer to career ts% doesn't speak on anything. Nobody cares about Wizards MJ or teenage Kobe.

Is it? I would say that since both experienced very long careers it could be taken into consideration. If anything, Kobe has seen more years that hurt his numbers. Like his first years in the league and his last couple of years as an old dog. MJ really only had 2 years that he might want wiped away. Even though they were still very good.

And TS% without usage is always irrelevant.

Uh, Jordan only had 1% higher usage and 1% higher TS%. How does that hurt Kobe's legacy? If anything it helps it. Also, Kobe's prime scoring runs were during the toughest defenses in NBA history according to the average leagues defensive ratings. Yes better then Jordans years. It slowly has been trending back to what it was during Jordans time but Kobe can no longer reap the benefits of playing a lighter defense. Durant, LBJ, and Harden certainly have though


Looking at Bulls MJ vs Kobe through the same age, the TS% is far different and more importantly, despite the higher usage, MJ sports the far better O-RTG, about 8 PTS higher.
Jordan had 1% higher usage, and exactly 7 points better O-rtg. But I don't remember comparing Kobe to Jordan. So many people nowadays are looking straight at ts% and saying player x is more efficient= better player than player y. According to the numbers, Durant is a better scorer than Jordan. So has James Harden been for a couple of years. I am just saying that the way these guys are asked to play the game breads efficiency in a way that we calculate as the best way to play right now. And then we compare them to players who played before this new revelation and proclaim the new player to be the better scorer/player. Just trying to bring another side of the equation to light.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 12:25 AM
even though the mid range game is a lost art - you think Durant is going to be thinking about shooting percentages and shooting from either at the rim and 3 point line during the game???? You also forget to realize that big men can't stay in the paint anymore. the paint is more open than it used to be. Now that big men have to come out of the paint the two point area is crowded. obviously the logical way of scoring would be driving to the rim or taking the 3 pointer.
Also, what do you mean big men are not allowed to stay in the paint anymore? How far back are you going. Standing in the paint hasn't been allowed in I don't know how long. And the reason for shooting in the paint or behind the line is the best shots but not for the reason you listed

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 12:37 AM
Lol in a thread thats talking about scoring, you brought up passing? It all started with you so you are the dunce here. You made a very general comment about "Durant passes a lot more than Kobe" so that opens the door to anybody to make a general reply to it. Were you referring to just the last 7-8 games? Kobe has been out. Were you referring to just this year? Durant is averaging 5.1 and Kobe 6.3, any way you slice it you're an idiot.

Yes I brought up passing because people have been talking about Durant surpassing prime Kobe in overall ability. I didn't just whip out the classic "Kobe can't pass" comment. I attempted to make a point that Durant is becoming an excellent all-around player. I wasn't hating on Kobe. And Kobe being out is completely irrelevant. Obviously I'm aware of him being out for a while, but I wasn't comparing how well eachother has played throughout January, I was comparing Durant's recent stretch to Kobe's best career stretches. And yeah, Kobe has averaged 6.3 assists per game this year, but it's in 6 games, and he's averaged 5.7 turnovers as well.

PowerHouse
01-23-2014, 12:41 AM
Shooting Guard, Small Forward. Same thing, wing players.

Wing players yes, same type of wing player no. In the half court set 3s do a lot of posting up and back to the basket game especially the 3s who are go-to guys like Durant, Lebron, Bird, etc.

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 12:43 AM
Wing players yes, same type of wing player no. In the half court set 3s do a lot of posting up and back to the basket game especially the 3s who are go-to guys like Durant, Lebron, Bird, etc.

I don't understand what your point is, Kobe posts up a **** ton.

Chronz
01-23-2014, 12:53 AM
Not sure I would say better players. Different eras is a better way to put it.
Which has made them better players (if they truly are, which hasn't been proven).


Like I said, give MJ today's knowledge and style of play, I believe he would not be getting dwarfed like he is to LBJ and Durant.
I dont see him getting dwarfed as it is already, nor do I believe he would be a far different player.




Would you say Kobe was in this era of the open floor game? I would say he patterned his game identical to Mikes. Kobe loves the long range two point shot. To him that is what is missing in todays game. He loves the mid range game like they used to when he was growing up. When would you say this new age NBA came about? I would say very recently. Kobe is way past learning a new style of play. You cant teach an old dog new tricks. Especially one as stubborn as him. Unfortunately for him he fell in love with the style of play from one of the greatest to ever do it. But that mid range two point shot has been proven to be the worst shot in basketball.
I wouldnt, MJ played in the era of the open floor game (the 80's), Kobe played primarily in the toughest defensive era (moreso than MJ) IMO and then benefited from the rule changes as all other players did. And I hate to break this to Kobe, but the midrange game was going extinct long before the 05 rule changes. It still has a place in this league, but you have to be damn near MJ like in your efficiency for it to be a primary weapon. Kobe wasn't, despite his advanced knowledge. Either way, like I said before, you can still compare efficiency relative to their leagues.




Is it? I would say that since both experienced very long careers it could be taken into consideration. If anything, Kobe has seen more years that hurt his numbers. Like his first years in the league and his last couple of years as an old dog. MJ really only had 2 years that he might want wiped away. Even though they were still very good.
I dont think they were very good at all and you're wrong about the impact those year have in hurting his numbers. If you take out those 2 seasons, MJ's TS% rises significantly more than ANY 2 years you isolate in favor of Kobe, the reason for this is simple mathematics. Kobes teen years weren't anywhere near as prolific/ineffective in his chucking. Kobes career best in TS% only matches MJ's career average as a member of the Bulls.

But feel free to isolate any stretch you want, you will see a bigger disparity than you're trying to depict in overall efficiency, which includes much more than just TS%.



Uh, Jordan only had 1% higher usage and 1% higher TS%. How does that hurt Kobe's legacy? If anything it helps it.
Because according to your advancing era theory, Kobes knowledge of the game should have increased. And again, nobody cares about Wizards MJ. I love how you keep focusing on TS% and ignoring the far more important PPP.



Jordan had 1% higher usage, and exactly 7 points better O-rtg. But I don't remember comparing Kobe to Jordan.
You did with this line here; Because he didn't, he has only a 1% advantage over chucker Kobe in TS% for his career.

Considering the years you're looking at include Wizards MJ and are simply career averages as opposed to peak or prime sections, its not very telling at all. When you focus on their best days, MJ still stands alone, particularly in the playoffs.



So many people nowadays are looking straight at ts% and saying player x is more efficient= better player than player y. According to the numbers, Durant is a better scorer than Jordan. So has James Harden been for a couple of years.
So is it people now adays or are they the numbers? Nobody I trust only looks at TS% whilst ignoring overall efficiency. The way you are when you lump James Harden in here.


I am just saying that the way these guys are asked to play the game breads efficiency in a way that we calculate as the best way to play right now. And then we compare them to players who played before this new revelation and proclaim the new player to be the better scorer/player. Just trying to bring another side of the equation to light.
And again, you can focus on how efficient they are relative to their era but even without that excuse, you still aren't being factual with your calculations. And if players are smarter now adays due to an advancing game, it still wouldn't change the fact that they are better players (if its deemed that they are).

Chronz
01-23-2014, 12:54 AM
Wing players yes, same type of wing player no. In the half court set 3s do a lot of posting up and back to the basket game especially the 3s who are go-to guys like Durant, Lebron, Bird, etc.

Wouldn't stop them from being deemed superior players

JWorthy42
01-23-2014, 01:04 AM
If anyone suggests that Kevin Durant is better than Kobe Bryant ever was...I suggest you put a bullet through your own head.

Or simply, shut up.

JWorthy42
01-23-2014, 01:08 AM
The NBA went from sucking Kobe's nuts, to underrating him, and now its like complete disregard. You guys are dropping Kobe to the Francis, Ellis, Marbury levels.

Bruno
01-23-2014, 01:08 AM
Bryant averaged 43+ on a TS% above .600 in January 2006. sorry, what's the problem with his peak efficiency? I'm not seeing it.

also:

87 MJ: 1.334 points per field goal attempt.
06 KB: 1.303 points per field goal attempt.

I must be missing something here because those numbers look similarly efficient to me. fractions of decimal points in difference. :shrug:

JWorthy42
01-23-2014, 01:11 AM
Bryant averaged 43+ on a TS% above .600 in January 2006. sorry, what's the problem with his peak efficiency? I'm not seeing it.

also:

87 MJ: 1.334 points per field goal attempt.
06 KB: 1.303 points per field goal attempt.

I must be missing something here because those numbers look similarly efficient to me. fractions of decimal points in difference. :shrug:

Goddamn, Bruno.

I love you. :cheers:

Hawkeye15
01-23-2014, 01:32 AM
He has been completely on fire, maybe the hottest stretch I can remember. Durant already has a better peak forming than Kobe ever had, easily, and may actually challenge LeBron, something I didn't think would happen.

Hawkeye15
01-23-2014, 01:34 AM
Bryant averaged 43+ on a TS% above .600 in January 2006. sorry, what's the problem with his peak efficiency? I'm not seeing it.

also:

87 MJ: 1.334 points per field goal attempt.
06 KB: 1.303 points per field goal attempt.

I must be missing something here because those numbers look similarly efficient to me. fractions of decimal points in difference. :shrug:

rebounding, being #1 in the NBA in isolation defense, etc make Durant's stretch stronger.

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 01:43 AM
Bryant averaged 43+ on a TS% above .600 in January 2006. sorry, what's the problem with his peak efficiency? I'm not seeing it.

also:

87 MJ: 1.334 points per field goal attempt.
06 KB: 1.303 points per field goal attempt.

I must be missing something here because those numbers look similarly efficient to me. fractions of decimal points in difference. :shrug:

14 KD: 1.57 points per field goal attempt

gangis2169
01-23-2014, 02:09 AM
Lol numbers numbers numbers. Stat geeks forget one giant stat KD is about 5 inches taller than Kobe being guarded by guys who are undersized or guys his size that are flat footed. KD has a huge scoring advantage. Give Kobe 5 more inches in his prime he'd average 60. Jordan said it himself Kobe just has every move in the book including his. KD is amazing but nowhere near Kobe. Although I do think KD will be the greatest scorer of all time Kobe was the more complete player.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 02:13 AM
Which has made them better players (if they truly are, which hasn't been proven).


It would. But it's like testing two people on a subject and allowing one to take the test first and the other person being able to study what the other person did right and wrong. Doesn't mean the second person is smarter.


I dont see him getting dwarfed as it is already, nor do I believe he would be a far different player

I think Jordan would have been a better 3 point shooter rather than settling for long twos as he got older.


I wouldnt, MJ played in the era of the open floor game (the 80's), Kobe played primarily in the toughest defensive era (moreso than MJ) IMO and then benefited from the rule changes as all other players did. And I hate to break this to Kobe, but the midrange game was going extinct long before the 05 rule changes. It still has a place in this league, but you have to be damn near MJ like in your efficiency for it to be a primary weapon. Kobe wasn't, despite his advanced knowledge. Either way, like I said before, you can still compare efficiency relative to their leagues.

I am saying that Kobe did not play in the new age of thinking. He has recently but after he was out of his prime. I have heard Max say that Mike D revolutionized the way offense is played. He may get right. When was PER, Ts% WS's/48 created and actually studied by NBA teams? Kobe grew up and still plays the old way. He was not in the advanced era of thinking when he was going for 35 a game.





I dont think they were very good at all and you're wrong about the impact those year have in hurting his numbers. If you take out those 2 seasons, MJ's TS% rises significantly more than ANY 2 years you isolate in favor of Kobe, the reason for this is simple mathematics. Kobes teen years weren't anywhere near as prolific/ineffective in his chucking. Kobes career best in TS% only matches MJ's career average as a member of the Bulls.

I am saying that Jordan has far to close of a ts% to Kobe even though he was better around the rim and better at getting to the line. As he got older he started to drop off because he could no longer benefit from the paint production as much, and lacked the knowledge of what the 3 pointer would add to hiss game and overall numbers.


But feel free to isolate any stretch you want, you will see a bigger disparity than you're trying to depict in overall efficiency, which includes much more than just TS%.
I might do that one day. Not tonight. Too tired


Because according to your advancing era theory, Kobes knowledge of the game should have increased. And again, nobody cares about Wizards MJ. I love how you keep focusing on TS% and ignoring the far more important PPP.
Like I said earlier. I'm not sure Kobe's prime coincided with the new way thinking.



You did with this line here; Because he didn't, he has only a 1% advantage over chucker Kobe in TS% for his career.

I kinda covered this up top. Kobe did not play in this new spread the floor with shooters and attack the basket type game during his prime. Mike D has tried to install it but Kobe looks at him crossss eyed. He is still very much attached to the old ways.


Considering the years you're looking at include Wizards MJ and are simply career averages as opposed to peak or prime sections, its not very telling at all. When you focus on their best days, MJ still stands alone, particularly in the playoffs.

I think you took my original posts out of context. I was not saying Kobe was *** good as Jordan. I was just saying that players of today are going to have higher ts% than players of yesteryear. And believe it or not, there are people who still look at fg%, and there are now people who just look at ts% to determine which player scored more efficiently. My posts is directed at those people.

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 02:13 AM
Lol numbers numbers numbers. Stat geeks forget one giant stat KD is about 5 inches taller than Kobe being guarded by guys who are undersized or guys his size that are flat footed. KD has a huge scoring advantage. Give Kobe 5 more inches in his prime he'd average 60. Jordan said it himself Kobe just has every move in the book including his. KD is amazing but nowhere near Kobe. Although I do think KD will be the greatest scorer of all time Kobe was the more complete player.

KD is a better two-way player than Kobe and a more efficient scorer than Kobe. How is prime Kobe a more complete player? Yoloswag? No.

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 02:25 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2006&p2=duranke01&y2=2014

^Durant now is better than prime Kobe

Per 36:

KD: 29.4 pts, 7.4 rbs, 4.8 ast, .502% fg, .411% 3pfg, .881% ft
Kobe: 31.1 pts, 4.7 rbs, 4.0 ast, .450% fg, .347% 3pfg, .850% ft

Advanced:

Kobe: .224 WS48, 114 ortg, 105 drtg, 24.1 AST%
KD: .329 WS48, 124 ortg, 100 drtg, 24.8 AST%

Also, KD is now one of the few players to ever get 30, 4, and 4 for at least 7 straight games. Something Kobe has never done.

ILLUSIONIST where you at breh?

Hawkeye15
01-23-2014, 02:35 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2006&p2=duranke01&y2=2014

^Durant now is better than prime Kobe

Per 36:

KD: 29.4 pts, 7.4 rbs, 4.8 ast, .502% fg, .411% 3pfg, .881% ft
Kobe: 31.1 pts, 4.7 rbs, 4.0 ast, .450% fg, .347% 3pfg, .850% ft

Advanced:

Kobe: .224 WS48, 114 ortg, 105 drtg, 24.1 AST%
KD: .329 WS48, 124 ortg, 100 drtg, 24.8 AST%

Also, KD is now one of the few players to ever get 30, 4, and 4 for at least 7 straight games. Something Kobe has never done.

ILLUSIONIST where you at breh?


Durant is currently putting up a better season, TO DATE, than anything Kobe did. Lets see how it plays out.

tredigs
01-23-2014, 02:42 AM
^Could say the same stats-wise about KD last year too though. Now it's just becoming more pronounced.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 02:42 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2006&p2=duranke01&y2=2014

^Durant now is better than prime Kobe

Per 36:

KD: 29.4 pts, 7.4 rbs, 4.8 ast, .502% fg, .411% 3pfg, .881% ft
Kobe: 31.1 pts, 4.7 rbs, 4.0 ast, .450% fg, .347% 3pfg, .850% ft

Advanced:

Kobe: .224 WS48, 114 ortg, 105 drtg, 24.1 AST%
KD: .329 WS48, 124 ortg, 100 drtg, 24.8 AST%

Also, KD is now one of the few players to ever get 30, 4, and 4 for at least 7 straight games. Something Kobe has never done.

ILLUSIONIST where you at breh?

What are you referring to? Kobe averaged 35, 5, and 5 for a season. Pretty sure he did that over 7 games

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 02:43 AM
What are you referring to? Kobe averaged 35, 5, and 5 for a season. Pretty sure he did that over 7 games

A stat they just put up on ESPN.

tredigs
01-23-2014, 02:48 AM
What are you referring to? Kobe averaged 35, 5, and 5 for a season. Pretty sure he did that over 7 games

He didn't, but it shows how fickle arbitrary stats like that can be.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 02:48 AM
Durant is currently putting up a better season, TO DATE, than anything Kobe did. Lets see how it plays out.

Or what Jordan did. Curious why you wouldn't state that fact rather than going for the lower hanging fruit in Kobe. Hmmm

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 02:51 AM
A stat they just put up on ESPN.

Okay.... But if we are just going to go by counting stats, wouldn't you say 35, 5, and 5 for a season is better than 30, 4 and 4 for 7 games? Lol. What a weird stat to state

Cal827
01-23-2014, 02:51 AM
I don't know man. Definitely better than what I've seen in Lebrons runs... but Kobe on the other hand is a little different. I remember watching that psycho season dragging his team around.

It might have been due to me being 8 years younger, and it also might be due to the fact that I've been a Raptors fan since the start and watched kobe light us up shot by shot... but I think I feared Kobe's runs more than I fear Durant right now.

Cue the statisticians refute my claim, referring to effiiency and advanced statistics (which I won't deny, I'm pretty sure will say that Durant's run has been better than Kobe), but this is my personal opinion. Sometimes stats don't tell the full story.

tredigs
01-23-2014, 02:55 AM
Or what Jordan did. Curious why you wouldn't state that fact rather than going for the lower hanging fruit in Kobe. Hmmm

Much tougher argument. At the age of 25 Jordan was averaging 33/8/8 + 3 steals on a 60% TS and league leading PER + WS/48 as the best perimeter defender in the game (coming off DPOY).

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 02:57 AM
Or what Jordan did. Curious why you wouldn't state that fact rather than going for the lower hanging fruit in Kobe. Hmmm

Jordan averaged 33, 8, 8 on 54% for one season

tredigs
01-23-2014, 03:00 AM
Okay.... But if we are just going to go by counting stats, wouldn't you say 35, 5, and 5 for a season is better than 30, 4 and 4 for 7 games? Lol. What a weird stat to state

Well to be fair he's averaging 39/6/6 on 57/49/86 over his past 7 games, the 30/4/4 is just the minimum of each of those counting stats. But agreed it is pretty stupid.

Edit: And on the year he's above those #'s also at 31/8/5. Same situation.

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 03:00 AM
Okay.... But if we are just going to go by counting stats, wouldn't you say 35, 5, and 5 for a season is better than 30, 4 and 4 for 7 games? Lol. What a weird stat to state

Yeah that stat was pretty dumb I admit but that wasn't the basis for my argument.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 03:15 AM
Much tougher argument. At the age of 25 Jordan was averaging 33/8/8 + 3 steals on a 60% TS and league leading PER + WS/48 as the best perimeter defender in the game (coming off DPOY).

Are we just talking about counting numbers and ignoring overall efficiency? I don't like counting numbers since the pace was so different. But KD's Ts%, efg%, O-Rtg, D-Rtg, WS/48 beat Jordans that amazing year.

tredigs
01-23-2014, 03:34 AM
Are we just talking about counting numbers and ignoring overall efficiency? I don't like counting numbers since the pace was so different. But KD's Ts%, efg%, O-Rtg, D-Rtg, WS/48 beat Jordans that amazing year.

Fair enough, overall it was a faster pace then, but that Bulls squad ran one of the slowest paces in the league at the time (nearly identical to OKC's current pace which is one of the quicker ones in this NBA). So not much difference there. He did also play 3 mpg extra, but you can take that as a potential detriment as well (generally over the course of a full season if you're playing 40+ minutes and leading the league in that category, it should take a slight hit on your efficiency #'s).

OKC's defensive scheme is better (and his personal D rating as a result), but MJ's D was incredible at that point. Absolute glue and was always on the oppositions best offensive perimeter player. KD's a very good defender but not in that class. Barring the last 5 minutes of certain games or random possessions, he will not necessarily be guarding the best perimeter player, or best post player for that matter.

MJ was the far better playmaker as well (other than the 8 APG we can look at the 35% Assist% to KD's 25% Assist%).

KD's efficiency beats him out at this point, but we still need to see it maintain for the full season and I would still take MJ's overall game.

Durant (and Lebron + others) also do benefit from the "advanced stat revolution" + sportsVu type cameras and take notes from advisers on where exactly they should be shooting and off of what sets to maximize their efficiency. It's huge of them to adhere to it, but it's not something pre-2000 athletes had available to them at this level. That is what it is, though. Nature of the progression of the game. But it is just another thing that makes it tougher to directly compare stats of year 2000+ players to eras prior.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 03:40 AM
Fair enough, overall it was a faster pace then, but that Bulls squad ran one of the slowest paces in the league at the time (nearly identical to OKC's current pace which is one of the quicker ones in this NBA). So not much difference there. He did also play 3 mpg extra, but you can take that as a potential detriment as well (generally over the course of a full season if you're playing 40+ minutes and leading the league in that category, it should take a slight hit on your efficiency #'s).

OKC's defensive scheme is better (and his personal D rating as a result), but MJ's D was incredible at that point. Absolute glue and was always on the oppositions best offensive perimeter player. KD's a very good defender but not in that class. Barring the last 5 minutes of certain games or random possessions, he will not necessarily be guarding the best perimeter player, or best post player for that matter.

MJ was the far better playmaker as well (other than the 8 APG we can look at the 35% Assist% to KD's 25% Assist%).

KD's efficiency beats him out at this point, but we still need to see it maintain for the full season and I would still take MJ's overall game.

Durant (and Lebron + others) also do benefit from the "advanced stat revolution" + sportsVu type cameras and take notes from advisers on where exactly they should be shooting and off of what sets to maximize their efficiency. It's huge of them to adhere to it, but it's not something pre-2000 athletes had available to them at this level. That is what it is, though. Nature of the progression of the game. But it is just another thing that makes it tougher to directly compare stats of year 2000+ players to eras prior.

Good post. Agree on all accounts. Except maybe the year 2000 cut off. Is that when Hollinger implemented PER. Or any of the other advanced metrics used today? Im pretty sure it was much later

Fly Armen Fly
01-23-2014, 03:42 AM
My first post of PSD!!!!! you guys are all forgetting one huge thing that players nowadays dont see but kobe witnessed, he had the disadvantage of the double and triple team, I love durant hes the best scorer in the game and I think will surpass kobe but I remember watching kobe in his prime where all eyes were on Kobe and they would send a double team and occasionally triple teams but guys like KD and Lebron rarely get that, Kobe would get it and still force a jumper cause he didnt want to pass hence his efficiency being lower than KDs. I only saw KD pull up once on a late double he usually would get the ball out of his hands and he trusts his players but kobe didnt therefore the lower ratings doesnt mean KD is the better player, KDs method is smarter but kobe was a stubborn player.

tredigs
01-23-2014, 03:53 AM
Good post. Agree on all accounts. Except maybe the year 2000 cut off. Is that when Hollinger implemented PER. Or any of the other advanced metrics used today? Im pretty sure it was much later
No you're right, it was probably a little later. Not exactly sure on the dates that PER, TS%, etc, came out. I feel like that was in the 2005-07 range. I do think that the public gets the bulk of this info after the teams and players themselves are informed (not necessarily the stats themselves, but the advice on what they need to do to be more efficient based on those #'s), but 2000's just an arbitrary cutoff.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 03:59 AM
Good post. Agree on all accounts. Except maybe the year 2000 cut off. Is that when Hollinger implemented PER. Or any of the other advanced metrics used today? Im pretty sure it was much later
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Oliver_(statistician)

According to that link, Dean Oliver started the advanced basketball revolution in 2004 after he read the 2003 Moneyball book. Hollinger later developed PER in 2006. You give it a couple of years to catch on and you don't start seeing a lot of the players in the league use it until 2009/2010. Way past Jordan, and after Kobe's prime

Kaner
01-23-2014, 03:59 AM
Or what Jordan did. Curious why you wouldn't state that fact rather than going for the lower hanging fruit in Kobe. Hmmm

A possible reason I think of is unless Durant starts playing really stupid or the Monstars want him for space jam 2 Durant's season is going to be sitting comfortably ahead of any of Kobe's.
While so far it isn't a 'fact' that Durants season is better than any season of Jordans from '87-'91 with they're being an argument either way.

hidalgo
01-23-2014, 04:04 AM
MJ averaged 37.1 ppg for 82 games. anyone else in the modern age can't touch that. he also did 35 ppg at .535 fg% for 82 games. still the ultimate scorer & GOAT (kobe even admitted it took far more skill to score in the 80s & 90s, MJ did it in the toughtest era for a perimeter player to score)

what Durant is doing kills Kobe's 45% shot jacking. he's already better than Kobe ever was, so is Lebron(but everyone knows Lebron's been better for 8 years+)

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-23-2014, 04:25 AM
kobe has do it 4 times not three

astonmartin10
01-23-2014, 04:46 AM
Durant is beasting. But wow Kobe what a scorer.

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 04:49 AM
MJ averaged 37.1 ppg for 82 games. anyone else in the modern age can't touch that. he also did 35 ppg at .535 fg% for 82 games. still the ultimate scorer & GOAT (kobe even admitted it took far more skill to score in the 80s & 90s, MJ did it in the toughtest era for a perimeter player to score)

what Durant is doing kills Kobe's 45% shot jacking. he's already better than Kobe ever was, so is Lebron(but everyone knows Lebron's been better for 8 years+)

The 37 was with slightly above average efficiency while playing over 40 minutes a night

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 04:55 AM
A possible reason I think of is unless Durant starts playing really stupid or the Monstars want him for space jam 2 Durant's season is going to be sitting comfortably ahead of any of Kobe's.
While so far it isn't a 'fact' that Durants season is better than any season of Jordans from '87-'91 with they're being an argument either way.

Good point, possibly. But you are new here. There is a reason why I would ask certain individuals why they say what they say. Like the guy that posted below you. He has over 1,000 post and has used Kobe's name 2000 times in them. And is Never objective. Hawk is an admitted Kobe basher. I just find it curious why certain people show someone being better than Kobe when they arguably bested the best player in the game, the best player ever, as well as many other greats like Wade, Melo, Bird, Irving, Drexler, West, Baylor, etc etc.

Shlumpledink
01-23-2014, 05:03 AM
Fun times, but Kobe is a better scorer. Durant is a monster with an unblockable jumper, and great athleticism, so him getting hot is really easy to understand. He has such a fantastic shooting touch and stroke, that you're surprised when he doesn't make it. I could see Durant getting 60+ points multiple times in his career.

I just don't see him putting together stretches like Kobe has. In those seasons, Kobe had a monstrous midrange game. I haven't seen him do quite the same things before or since, but he was nearly automatic from midrange. That elbow jumper was something to marvel at, especially coming out of triangle sets.

Durant is being more efficient, sure, but what does that mean? Kobe didn't have as much help, so you knew exactly where the shots were coming from. He was leaned on a lot more than Durant is. Remember when Luke Walton was starting at small forward? Remember Brian Cook?

Durant should shoot more, he should really go for broke. If he can eclipse 81, i'd love to see it. He certainly has the game for it.

Riodagoat
01-23-2014, 05:08 AM
Taking KD over Kobe without a doubt.
Effiency is a wonderful thing.

Hawkeye15
01-23-2014, 05:13 AM
Fun times, but Kobe is a better scorer. Durant is a monster with an unblockable jumper, and great athleticism, so him getting hot is really easy to understand. He has such a fantastic shooting touch and stroke, that you're surprised when he doesn't make it. I could see Durant getting 60+ points multiple times in his career.

I just don't see him putting together stretches like Kobe has. In those seasons, Kobe had a monstrous midrange game. I haven't seen him do quite the same things before or since, but he was nearly automatic from midrange. That elbow jumper was something to marvel at, especially coming out of triangle sets.

Durant is being more efficient, sure, but what does that mean? Kobe didn't have as much help, so you knew exactly where the shots were coming from. He was leaned on a lot more than Durant is. Remember when Luke Walton was starting at small forward? Remember Brian Cook?

Durant should shoot more, he should really go for broke. If he can eclipse 81, i'd love to see it. He certainly has the game for it.

it means everything, and........what?

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 05:14 AM
Durant will get at least 70 in one game before his career is over. 90 isn't out of the realm of possibility. 101? Why not?

JWorthy42
01-23-2014, 06:02 AM
Durant will get at least 70 in one game before his career is over. 90 isn't out of the realm of possibility. 101? Why not?

70, I can see. However 90 or 101? LOL.

Put the pipe down, bruh.

krrys11
01-23-2014, 08:13 AM
Both of them are great.
Which one is better?

Well if they were both 19 right now, and you would know how they will develop, which one would you draft?

For me it is easy: Kobe.

And just one more thing. Why people compare guards with forwards? There is a size difference. Maybe we should also compare Shaq ?

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 11:52 AM
70, I can see. However 90 or 101? LOL.

Put the pipe down, bruh.

I was playing.

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 11:53 AM
Both of them are great.
Which one is better?

Well if they were both 19 right now, and you would know how they will develop, which one would you draft?

For me it is easy: Kobe.

And just one more thing. Why people compare guards with forwards? There is a size difference. Maybe we should also compare Shaq ?

I just proved on the other page that KD now is better than Kobe ever.

beliges
01-23-2014, 12:24 PM
Kobe was dripping 50 at will. Durant hasn't reached that level yet.

Tony_Starks
01-23-2014, 12:31 PM
A player can average 40+ for a month multiple times, have like 4 50+ performances in 5 games, drop 65 and sit out an ENTIRE quarter, and have only the second highest scoring game ever w/o setting out to do it........

Yet another player can have a impressive month and he's "better than ( hated on player) ever was!"

Gotta love it! Straight up comedy!

holditdown
01-23-2014, 12:34 PM
A player can average 40+ for a month multiple times, have like 4 50+ performances in 5 games, drop 65 and sit out an ENTIRE quarter, and have only the second highest scoring game ever w/o setting out to do it........

Yet another player can have a impressive month and he's "better than ( hated on player) ever was!"

Gotta love it!

You are just gonna have to deal with it man. Just deal with it. Most people think Durant is the better scorer.

jerellh528
01-23-2014, 12:48 PM
A player can average 40+ for a month multiple times, have like 4 50+ performances in 5 games, drop 65 and sit out an ENTIRE quarter, and have only the second highest scoring game ever w/o setting out to do it........

Yet another player can have a impressive month and he's "better than ( hated on player) ever was!"

Gotta love it! Straight up comedy!

Haha I've given up on the nba forum, it's been bad the last few years. I only use it to have a laugh here and there.Nfl forum is much better though for legit discussion.

nickdymez
01-23-2014, 12:48 PM
People on this forum just really hate Kobe. Its ridiculous really and sad.

Durant has been a killer in these past few games for sure. I watched last night and was just shaking my head at how sick he is. Durant is the best in the game as far as i'm concerned.

nickdymez
01-23-2014, 12:50 PM
Haha I've given up on the nba forum, it's been bad the last few years. I only use it to have a laugh here and there. Nfl forum is much better though for legit discussion.

I second this. The NBA forum is really laughable now.

Tony_Starks
01-23-2014, 01:03 PM
You are just gonna have to deal with it man. Just deal with it. Most people think Durant is the better scorer.


Oh trust me I expect it at this point. Kobe couldve scored 200 points with a broken arm playing barefoot and people would be saying "yeah, yeah..... but how efficient was it?"

beliges
01-23-2014, 01:44 PM
Durant is shaping up to be the kobe of this generation. One major difference was that kobe was one of the greatest perimeter defenders in his prime as well. Durant is just not there. But in my book, Kobe was the greatest scorer to ever play in his prime.

ManRam
01-23-2014, 01:44 PM
I second this. The NBA forum is really laughable now.

:laugh:

hidalgo
01-23-2014, 01:45 PM
Kobe was forcing his scoring, & forcing 50 point games, & he was lucky to shoot 45% for the year. taking advantage of the softer rules ofthis era. missing far more shots that he made, a very Iverson like season .context. yawwn big deal(extremely selfish basketball doesn't begin to describe it). Durant is doing it much more naturally & efficiently. people see the difference. if Durant or LeBron forced things like Kobe did, they could avg 36-38 big more efficiently

Chronz
01-23-2014, 03:24 PM
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Oliver_(statistician)

According to that link, Dean Oliver started the advanced basketball revolution in 2004 after he read the 2003 Moneyball book. Hollinger later developed PER in 2006. You give it a couple of years to catch on and you don't start seeing a lot of the players in the league use it until 2009/2010. Way past Jordan, and after Kobe's prime

PER and linear weights like it have been around far longer. PER began as early as 2001 IIRC, been buying Hollingers basketball prospectus since at least 2002 and before him there was belotti or whatever his name was back in the 90's.

Chronz
01-23-2014, 03:46 PM
It would. But it's like testing two people on a subject and allowing one to take the test first and the other person being able to study what the other person did right and wrong. Doesn't mean the second person is smarter.
It does in my book, especially when we still have the option of comparing how they did vs their peers in that regard.




I think Jordan would have been a better 3 point shooter rather than settling for long twos as he got older.
Who knows, but the fact remains he didn't nor do we know if it would have made a positive difference, he was REALLY good at the mid range game, like almost unparalleled this side of Dirk. I mean what stopped him from doing it during his playing days? Danny Ainge turned himself into a 3pt shooter once he realized the value of it. D-Wade came into this era and completely avoided the 3pt shot.



I am saying that Kobe did not play in the new age of thinking.
But he did play in a NEWER "age of thinking" and got lesser results.


He has recently but after he was out of his prime. I have heard Max say that Mike D revolutionized the way offense is played. He may get right. When was PER, Ts% WS's/48 created and actually studied by NBA teams?
He was out of his prime by 2001, 2005, 2008? Kobe's never been smart enough to look at numbers anyways, I doubt he would have been influenced much. Nor does it exonerate whatever it is you're trying to here.


Kobe grew up and still plays the old way. He was not in the advanced era of thinking when he was going for 35 a game.
MJ could (and would) still play the old way as well, hes just far better at it.



I am saying that Jordan has far to close of a ts% to Kobe even though he was better around the rim and better at getting to the line.
Considering you're including Wizards MJ, why would anyone care? The truth is TS% is only 1 element of efficiency, when you look at the totality of efficiency, the disparity is far greater.


As he got older he started to drop off because he could no longer benefit from the paint production as much, and lacked the knowledge of what the 3 pointer would add to hiss game and overall numbers.
That what happens to all players as they get older, that he focused on the mid range game instead of the 3 doesn't mean he would be better/worse for it, he perfected that mid range shot. Either way, you can still look at how they fared for their eras knowledge. Also, you exaggerate his drop off if you're finding a discernible difference, that is unless you're talking about Wizards MJ.



I might do that one day. Not tonight. Too tired
Then plz stop citing irrelevant statistics.



Like I said earlier. I'm not sure Kobe's prime coincided with the new way thinking.
If thats the case then its his fault for not listening or learning. I dont buy all that tho, its not like we're talking about a 70's player being transplanted to today, then I could realize the adapting his game argument but honestly, there are strengths and weaknesses to any era. I think Durant/Bron would be beastly in the open floor 80's.



I kinda covered this up top. Kobe did not play in this new spread the floor with shooters and attack the basket type game during his prime. Mike D has tried to install it but Kobe looks at him crossss eyed. He is still very much attached to the old ways.
Sure he did, he just wasn't as good at it. Remember how turnover prone he was in Rudy's spread offense.



I think you took my original posts out of context. I was not saying Kobe was *** good as Jordan.
I know you aren't, its your use of irrelevant statistical qualifiers that Im calling out.


I was just saying that players of today are going to have higher ts% than players of yesteryear. And believe it or not, there are people who still look at fg%, and there are now people who just look at ts% to determine which player scored more efficiently. My posts is directed at those people.
Which is why you can compare how they were vs their leagues if you want, nothing really changes. And who cares about people who misuse statistics, 2 wrongs dont make a right. Players of yesteryear have different advantages to today so it works both ways. I personally feel Brons TS% and more importantly, his overall efficiency would be abit better in the free flowing 80's against inferior athletes and defenses.

Chronz
01-23-2014, 03:57 PM
No you're right, it was probably a little later. Not exactly sure on the dates that PER, TS%, etc, came out. I feel like that was in the 2005-07 range. I do think that the public gets the bulk of this info after the teams and players themselves are informed (not necessarily the stats themselves, but the advice on what they need to do to be more efficient based on those #'s), but 2000's just an arbitrary cutoff.


These numbers have been around forever, but they weren't full out proliferated like they are now. Shame, but thats the advancement of the sport and the player, they DO have that knowledge, if it makes them superior players so be it. I wouldn't credit it all on that tho, getting to the rim and opening the game up for your teammates has always been a priority for stars. Theres also the fact that you can still compare a players efficiency vs his peers.

Chronz
01-23-2014, 03:59 PM
Oh trust me I expect it at this point. Kobe couldve scored 200 points with a broken arm playing barefoot and people would be saying "yeah, yeah..... but how efficient was it?"

U do realize that being extreme doesn't lend credence to your opinions, right?

Chronz
01-23-2014, 04:04 PM
Kobe didn't have as much help, so you knew exactly where the shots were coming from. He was leaned on a lot more than Durant is. Remember when Luke Walton was starting at small forward? Remember Brian Cook?

Durant should shoot more, he should really go for broke. If he can eclipse 81, i'd love to see it. He certainly has the game for it.
So just outta curiosity, just how much help would it take for Kobe to display the level of efficiency seen from Bron/Durant/MJ at different points in their careers?

Bruno
01-23-2014, 04:28 PM
rebounding, being #1 in the NBA in isolation defense, etc make Durant's stretch stronger.
I was talking specifically about the scoring efficiency. making the point that Kobe had a TS% above .600 for the month and that he was extremely efficient in his own right. Naturally, Durant is on a different level right now in efficiency+ volume, and that includes MJ.

Durant is crushing Kobe and MJs run in point per filed goal attempt. But since you mentioned a few other things this is what i've got:

Kobe January 2006: 5.6 rpg
Durant January 2014: 5.8 rpg

rebounding is almost identical but Durant is averaging over an assist more than Kobe did in 1/06. BUT Durant is also averaging more TO's than Kobe did during his stretch (11 last night didn't help).

Kobe for the month of January 2006 had an average game score of 29.5. Durant is at 28.9.

all in all its pretty damn close and perhaps the nod should go to Durant because of these isolations defense numbers (i'm ignorant on Kobes during 1/06).. comparing team records during the stretches would be interesting too.


14 KD: 1.57 points per field goal attempt
I know. Durant has been on another level. I was just comparing Kobe and Mjs numbers from their peak scoring seasons. there isn't a drastic drop off in efficiency as the narrative insists. the difference is in fractions of decimal points when it comes to points per field goal attempt.

Bruno
01-23-2014, 04:32 PM
Goddamn, Bruno.

I love you. :cheers:
love your sig.

just putting out numbers I thought were relevant.

He has been completely on fire, maybe the hottest stretch I can remember. Durant already has a better peak forming than Kobe ever had, easily, and may actually challenge LeBron, something I didn't think would happen.

Ive been waiting for this. Durant is a freak of nature physically, it's easy to forget that he has Kobes skill set but in a 6'11 frame.

Kaner
01-23-2014, 05:10 PM
Bryant averaged 43+ on a TS% above .600 in January 2006. sorry, what's the problem with his peak efficiency? I'm not seeing it.

also:

87 MJ: 1.334 points per field goal attempt.
06 KB: 1.303 points per field goal attempt.

I must be missing something here because those numbers look similarly efficient to me. fractions of decimal points in difference. :shrug:

is that 86-87 MJ? I ask because '87-'88 was a much better scoring season for him and it was at an identical ppg to kobe. in '87-'88 his ppfg attempts was well over 1.4

Chronz
01-23-2014, 05:49 PM
MJ's best offensive season was prolly in 91 at the age of 27

numba1CHANGsta
01-23-2014, 06:21 PM
The Best Scorers in the past 15 years in order:

1. Kobe
2. Durant
3. Iverson
4. T-Mac
5. LeBron

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2014, 08:05 PM
But he did play in a NEWER "age of thinking" and got lesser results.

From what I have read, Dean Oliver was the first to get a job with an NBA team as a statistician. And that was in 2005.



He was out of his prime by 2001, 2005, 2008? Kobe's never been smart enough to look at numbers anyways, I doubt he would have been influenced much. Nor does it exonerate whatever it is you're trying to here.

I agree that he would not have adjusted his game even if they made his advanced stats look better. I really believe he only cares about counting averages. If he really would have worried about shooting percentages than he would not have attempted 30 foot 3 point attempts just to see if he could hit it after he had just hit two in a row. He loved the heat check. He always used to do that. He enjoyed the ooh's and awe's of the crowd when he makes a very difficult shot over a easy layup. But again, my original post was not trying to pump up Kobe. It was more for MJ. Not sure why you keep inferring that I was trying to do anything for Kobe.



MJ could (and would) still play the old way as well, hes just far better at it.
Uh, agreed?



Considering you're including Wizards MJ, why would anyone care? The truth is TS% is only 1 element of efficiency, when you look at the totality of efficiency, the disparity is far greater.

What factors would you attribute to the "totality of efficiency?" TS% + O-Rtg+ PPP?



That what happens to all players as they get older, that he focused on the mid range game instead of the 3 doesn't mean he would be better/worse for it, he perfected that mid range shot. Either way, you can still look at how they fared for their eras knowledge. Also, you exaggerate his drop off if you're finding a discernible difference, that is unless you're talking about Wizards MJ.

After he turned 28, he never had a ts% above 600. Including 6 seasons with the Bulls and the two with the Wizards. He did that 4 straight times before that season. Just counting his six seasons with the Bulls, his TS% on average was .553. He won 5 championships during that time so he was not over the hill yet. That .553 is just slightly lower than Kobe's .555 for his career.




Then plz stop citing irrelevant statistics.

I don't believe TS% is an irrelevant statistic at all. I don't think many others would either.




If thats the case then its his fault for not listening or learning. I dont buy all that tho, its not like we're talking about a 70's player being transplanted to today, then I could realize the adapting his game argument but honestly, there are strengths and weaknesses to any era. I think Durant/Bron would be beastly in the open floor 80's.

Do you think Phil was preaching these stats? Phil did not grow up in that era either. I know he didn't teach it to the Bulls. I'm pretty sure he didn't start with the Lakers. Yes, Durant and Lebron would be great in any year you dropped them in. Doesn't change the fact that we are now judging all players of any era to new found metrics. Lebron and Durant have the benefit of being able to tailor their games to maximize the benefits of these new stats. Other players did not have that opportunity.




Sure he did, he just wasn't as good at it. Remember how turnover prone he was in Rudy's spread offense.

You're going to use 45 games under Rudy with all new players except for Walton in their first year in the new system as evidence that Kobe was turnover prone? Doesn't fly. He wasn't even that bad. Better then Lebron this year. Lebron's turnover% was the highest since his rookie year the first year he joined the Heat. I am sure you gave him the benefit of the doubt due to him playing with new teammates right? Same thing for Kobe last year. He has had two seasons as being the defacto point guard. Both of them under new systems, new coaches, new teammates, and last year with several different lineups due to injury. He has had his highest assist% of his career in those two seasons with a turnover % average of 13.6%. Exactly the same percentage that Lebron has had his four years with the Heat.




I know you aren't, its your use of irrelevant statistical qualifiers that Im calling out.

Whether you think its irrelevant or not, the numbers are the numbers. You can downplay it all you want. But I wasn't implying anything. Just posted a career shooting% stat that had Jordan better than Kobe by 1%. People can infer what they want with that fact.



Which is why you can compare how they were vs their leagues if you want, nothing really changes. And who cares about people who misuse statistics, 2 wrongs dont make a right. Players of yesteryear have different advantages to today so it works both ways. I personally feel Brons TS% and more importantly, his overall efficiency would be abit better in the free flowing 80's against inferior athletes and defenses.

Maybe, maybe not. He may have succumb to the pressure of improving his mid range game like he did his first year with the Heat. He said after he talked to Spolstra and was informed of the importance of good shot selection he changed his game. His shooting numbers have skyrocket since then. I don't think he gets that talk in the 80's.

Hawkeye15
01-23-2014, 08:42 PM
Or what Jordan did. Curious why you wouldn't state that fact rather than going for the lower hanging fruit in Kobe. Hmmm

Because Jordan routinely put up seasons in the WS/48 that Durant is now, PER's over 30, and did it in an era that had two distinct disadvantages: Hand checking allowed, and advanced stats not realized.

Durant is easily blowing away Kobe's best season this year unless the wheels fall of, efficiency/impact wise. No way we put him in Jordan's class as a SCORER (because he falls off even worse as a player at the same age), until he is racking up these numbers he has enjoyed the past 9 weeks for years...

Imagine Jordan in this era. Advanced statistics, and the freedom to not be touched on the perimeter. We know Kobe has played under those circumstances, though he literally emulated Jordan's game, so I am not sure the advanced stats would have benefited Kobe anyways.

ThaDubs
01-23-2014, 08:50 PM
A player can average 40+ for a month multiple times, have like 4 50+ performances in 5 games, drop 65 and sit out an ENTIRE quarter, and have only the second highest scoring game ever w/o setting out to do it........

Yet another player can have a impressive month and he's "better than ( hated on player) ever was!"

Gotta love it! Straight up comedy!

Prime Kobe vs. Current Durant

Per 36:

KD: 29.4 pts, 7.4 rbs, 4.8 ast, .502% fg, .411% 3pfg, .881% ft
Kobe: 31.1 pts, 4.7 rbs, 4.0 ast, .450% fg, .347% 3pfg, .850% ft

Advanced:

Kobe: .224 WS48, 114 ortg, 105 drtg, 24.1 AST%
KD: .329 WS48, 124 ortg, 100 drtg, 24.8 AST%

holditdown
01-23-2014, 11:05 PM
Because Jordan routinely put up seasons in the WS/48 that Durant is now, PER's over 30, and did it in an era that had two distinct disadvantages: Hand checking allowed, and advanced stats not realized.

Durant is easily blowing away Kobe's best season this year unless the wheels fall of, efficiency/impact wise. No way we put him in Jordan's class as a SCORER (because he falls off even worse as a player at the same age), until he is racking up these numbers he has enjoyed the past 9 weeks for years...

Imagine Jordan in this era. Advanced statistics, and the freedom to not be touched on the perimeter. We know Kobe has played under those circumstances, though he literally emulated Jordan's game, so I am not sure the advanced stats would have benefited Kobe anyways.

I honestly think in today's NBA Jordan could have a USG% in the low 40s and shoot around 54%. Think about it. Who would stop him from going to the rim? To be that tall and move like Allen Iverson without handchecking????? Plus he had every move you could think of except for a hook shot I guess.

Hawkeye15
01-24-2014, 02:00 AM
I honestly think in today's NBA Jordan could have a USG% in the low 40s and shoot around 54%. Think about it. Who would stop him from going to the rim? To be that tall and move like Allen Iverson without handchecking????? Plus he had every move you could think of except for a hook shot I guess.

MJ would have lived at the rim his first 8 years in this era, and been a 3 point shoooter/foul drawer late.

lol, please
01-24-2014, 02:08 AM
Im so sick and tired of Kobe getting disrespected by being lowered to the point where someone dares mention Lebron in the same breathe as Kobe freaking Bryant. It's disgusting. He isn't even retired yet. Soon he will be an underrated great on PSD like Jordan, Bird, and King Charles.

Lakers + Giants
01-24-2014, 02:44 AM
Im so sick and tired of Kobe getting disrespected by being lowered to the point where someone dares mention Lebron in the same breathe as Kobe freaking Bryant. It's disgusting. He isn't even retired yet. Soon he will be an underrated great on PSD like Jordan, Bird, and King Charles.

That's the lolphillies I know!

ManRam
01-24-2014, 11:10 AM
Im so sick and tired of Kobe getting disrespected by being lowered to the point where someone dares mention Lebron in the same breathe as Kobe freaking Bryant. It's disgusting. He isn't even retired yet. Soon he will be an underrated great on PSD like Jordan, Bird, and King Charles.

He might be underrated by some...and he might be overrated by others. But comparing a guy with 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs and a longer stretch of being the consensus league's best to Kobe shouldn't be as repulsive as you are saying it is :shrug:

No player ever is immune from criticism. Not Kobe, not Jordan, not anyone. Valid criticism =/= "disrespect". Comparisons you personally don't like doesn't necessarily mean "disrespect".

nickdymez
01-24-2014, 11:25 AM
He might be underrated by some...and he might be overrated by others. But comparing a guy with 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs and a longer stretch of being the consensus league's best to Kobe shouldn't be as repulsive as you are saying it is :shrug:

No player ever is immune from criticism. Not Kobe, not Jordan, not anyone. Valid criticism =/= "disrespect". Comparisons you personally don't like doesn't necessarily mean "disrespect".

MVP's and Finals MVP's huh... Got it...

ManRam
01-24-2014, 11:29 AM
MVP's and Finals MVP's huh... Got it...

Would you like to go into stats too? Or just use your eye-test to compare everyone.

I'm just saying that comparing the best player of this immediate era (LeBron) to the best player of the era immediately before it (Kobe, maybe) isn't "disrespectful". It's no less disrespectful when the individual accolades are on par. It's even less disrespectful when if you even take a single look at any stat besides PPG...well, you know...

Cano4prez
01-24-2014, 11:43 AM
Wade has had better stretches than this as well

beliges
01-24-2014, 02:21 PM
Im so sick and tired of Kobe getting disrespected by being lowered to the point where someone dares mention Lebron in the same breathe as Kobe freaking Bryant. It's disgusting. He isn't even retired yet. Soon he will be an underrated great on PSD like Jordan, Bird, and King Charles.

LBJ has earned the right to be compared to the all timers like kobe and MJ. The two titles made that happen. Now all that's left is for lbj to win like those guys did. Only way lbj can teach the level.of magic, or kobe or MJ is by winning more rings. That's all he has left to prove.

holditdown
01-24-2014, 04:40 PM
I'm neutral on Kobe Bryant. I think he's an overrated scorer and a vastly overrated player, but I've never had a rooting interest for him to win or lose. I'm not a hater or fan.

That said you guys need to chill with this "stop disrespecting Kobe, he's the 2nd greatest scorer ever". Some of you forget basketball existed before Michael Jordan.

Objective Newsflash: Kobe Bryant has 2 scoring titles on 45% FG for his career. That's not objectively ridiculous.

Durant has 3 scoring titles
Iverson has 4 scoring titles
McGrady has 2 scoring titles
Shaq has 2 scoring titles
Dantley has 2 scoring titles
Gervin has 4 scoring titles
McAdoo has 3 scoring titles
Jabbar has 2 scoring titles
Wilt has 7 scoring titles
Johnston has 3 scoring titles
Mikan has 3 scoring titles

Kobe Bryant was a great scorer, but don't just say he's second to MJ and speak it like fact. Because it's not a fact.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-24-2014, 10:43 PM
People on this forum just really hate Kobe. Its ridiculous really and sad.

Durant has been a killer in these past few games for sure. I watched last night and was just shaking my head at how sick he is. Durant is the best in the game as far as i'm concerned.

Reminds me of your hate for Lebron.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-24-2014, 10:45 PM
2006 Kobe was fun. But when Kwame and Smush are in your starting lineup, you gotta put the team on your back. I personally love huge scoring stretches.

It was not that fun. He was playing 2K6 using a controller that only had a shot stick.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-24-2014, 10:46 PM
:laugh: The Kobe haters never give up!

I agree. People should stop hating on one another. We should all just hold hands and be friends already.

RaiderLakersA's
01-25-2014, 01:08 AM
These threads are so much fun.

Is KD on fire now? Yes.

Should he be? Yes.

Should we be impressed? That depends on your age and perspective.

Personally, whether you're talking about Durant's series of 40+ point games or Melo's 62, my reaction is the same: I've seen it all before and was more in awe when other players did it years ago. Don't bother me with stats and arguments on efficiency: you're making a logical appeal to an emotional response. You can only fail more by trying. It's like trying to explain why the rock always loses to paper in RPS when you and I both know damn well that the right rock will shred a piece of paper. Or if the rock happens to be a mountain, well, you get the point.

Instead of comparing what Durant is doing now against history, why can't we just accept the fact that Durant is FINALLY making his own ripple in history and leave it at that?

Pierre The Poet
01-25-2014, 04:10 AM
I love Kobe so much, but Durant is more efficient, a better rebounder, a better passer, and a better defender now, than Kobe EVER was. And that is seriously not me hating on Kobe.

5 Rings > 0 Rings

ThaDubs
01-25-2014, 10:28 AM
5 Rings > 0 Rings

So I guess Kevin Durant isn't the best player on the Thunder? It's Derek Fisher?

t_money25
01-25-2014, 12:19 PM
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Kobe, his game, and the Lakers organization........

With that said, this thread has Kobe-circle jerk written all over it SMH.....why can't we just enjoy Durant's special moment in NBA history without trying to bring up someone else's accomplishments in an effort to diminish what Durant is doing?

And why the OP decided to throw Lebron in there baffles me too.

holditdown
01-25-2014, 01:27 PM
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Kobe, his game, and the Lakers organization........

With that said, this thread has Kobe-circle jerk written all over it SMH.....why can't we just enjoy Durant's special moment in NBA history without trying to bring up someone else's accomplishments in an effort to diminish what Durant is doing?

And why the OP decided to throw Lebron in there baffles me too.

Agree. LeBron is more a facilitator than a scorer so it's unfair to compare him in this thread when his game is more of an overall impact.

That said the Kobe-Circle Jerk thread I have my opinion. The Lakers have a lot of fans. Kobe has a lot of fans/followers. A few of them are ignorant and those are the ones who screech the loudest. There are the few who are always trying to elevate Kobe as high as they can. Always try and prop him up instead of letting his game and performances speak for themselves. We all know Kobe is great, we've seen him play.

I don't get it really. Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk and now even LeBron don't have legions of fan boasters to this extent. For some reason Kobe does and it's not his fault.

mngopher35
01-25-2014, 01:52 PM
Agree. LeBron is more a facilitator than a scorer so it's unfair to compare him in this thread when his game is more of an overall impact.

That said the Kobe-Circle Jerk thread I have my opinion. The Lakers have a lot of fans. Kobe has a lot of fans/followers. A few of them are ignorant and those are the ones who screech the loudest. There are the few who are always trying to elevate Kobe as high as they can. Always try and prop him up instead of letting his game and performances speak for themselves. We all know Kobe is great, we've seen him play.

I don't get it really. Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk and now even LeBron don't have legions of fan boasters to this extent. For some reason Kobe does and it's not his fault.

Largest fan base world wide for bball (I think). Arguably the best player in the league for a couple years and top 5 for like 10+, playing on that team for like 18 years winning 5 total rings and an MVP. It leads to a massive amount of total fans and (at least) the same percentage of "bad" fans. There are a lot of good laker and Kobe fans on this site to go with the few ignorant ones though (and I root against the lakers on a regular basis).

t_money25
01-25-2014, 02:07 PM
Agree. LeBron is more a facilitator than a scorer so it's unfair to compare him in this thread when his game is more of an overall impact.

That said the Kobe-Circle Jerk thread I have my opinion. The Lakers have a lot of fans. Kobe has a lot of fans/followers. A few of them are ignorant and those are the ones who screech the loudest. There are the few who are always trying to elevate Kobe as high as they can. Always try and prop him up instead of letting his game and performances speak for themselves. We all know Kobe is great, we've seen him play.

I don't get it really. Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk and now even LeBron don't have legions of fan boasters to this extent. For some reason Kobe does and it's not his fault.

Agreed. But if you take a closer look at it this has to be more about their love for/insecurities about Kobe more than anything else. If it was a Laker thing then why not mention Wilt? He scored 100 pts in a game..... Why not mention Kareem? He's the NBA's ALL TIME LEADING SCORER!

My point is this moment is supposed to be all about KD. Just accept it for what it is unless they're insecure about his perception among fans as an all time scorer just because KD is lighting it up right now.

t_money25
01-25-2014, 02:11 PM
These threads are so much fun.

Is KD on fire now? Yes.

Should he be? Yes.

Should we be impressed? That depends on your age and perspective.

Personally, whether you're talking about Durant's series of 40+ point games or Melo's 62, my reaction is the same: I've seen it all before and was more in awe when other players did it years ago. Don't bother me with stats and arguments on efficiency: you're making a logical appeal to an emotional response. You can only fail more by trying. It's like trying to explain why the rock always loses to paper in RPS when you and I both know damn well that the right rock will shred a piece of paper. Or if the rock happens to be a mountain, well, you get the point.

Instead of comparing what Durant is doing now against history, why can't we just accept the fact that Durant is FINALLY making his own ripple in history and leave it at that?

My point exactly! And this quote is from a Laker fan........much respect

DaLakerz Rulz
01-25-2014, 04:03 PM
attention nba forum I have finally found the answer to this long debated issue:

Lebron > Durant
MJ > Lebron
Kobe > MJ

so that makes Kobe > all 3

I am glad we can finally put this to rest. now let us move on

P&GRealist
01-25-2014, 04:11 PM
I'm neutral on Kobe Bryant. I think he's an overrated scorer and a vastly overrated player, but I've never had a rooting interest for him to win or lose. I'm not a hater or fan.

That said you guys need to chill with this "stop disrespecting Kobe, he's the 2nd greatest scorer ever". Some of you forget basketball existed before Michael Jordan.

Objective Newsflash: Kobe Bryant has 2 scoring titles on 45% FG for his career. That's not objectively ridiculous.

Durant has 3 scoring titles
Iverson has 4 scoring titles
McGrady has 2 scoring titles
Shaq has 2 scoring titles
Dantley has 2 scoring titles
Gervin has 4 scoring titles
McAdoo has 3 scoring titles
Jabbar has 2 scoring titles
Wilt has 7 scoring titles
Johnston has 3 scoring titles
Mikan has 3 scoring titles

Kobe Bryant was a great scorer, but don't just say he's second to MJ and speak it like fact. Because it's not a fact.


There are scoring champs like Durant who have won the scoring title and averaged only 28-30 ppg with a weak field.

Kobe's done it with 31.6 ppg and a ridiculous 35.4 ppg.

And people seem to forget that in the 35.4 ppg season, Iverson was 2nd at 33.0 and young LeBron at 31.4

Yeah, that's what a real scoring champion is right there. Not some weak 28.7 PPG crap with 13+ free throw attempts a game.

P&GRealist
01-25-2014, 05:12 PM
^is that really necessary ??

beliges
01-25-2014, 06:45 PM
5 Rings > 0 Rings

So I guess Kevin Durant isn't the best player on the Thunder? It's Derek Fisher?

Fisher is a roll.player. Durant is a superstar. Superstars are defined by winning.

koreancabbage
01-25-2014, 06:57 PM
How so? Derek Fisher is wanted on winning teams. your logic here is kinda messed up. probably needs better explanation.

jerellh528
01-25-2014, 07:49 PM
^ lol

holditdown
01-25-2014, 09:01 PM
There are scoring champs like Durant who have won the scoring title and averaged only 28-30 ppg with a weak field.

Kobe's done it with 31.6 ppg and a ridiculous 35.4 ppg.

And people seem to forget that in the 35.4 ppg season, Iverson was 2nd at 33.0 and young LeBron at 31.4

Yeah, that's what a real scoring champion is right there. Not some weak 28.7 PPG crap with 13+ free throw attempts a game.

A scoring title is a scoring title. Period.

majmarcus
01-25-2014, 09:48 PM
The NBA went from sucking Kobe's nuts, to underrating him, and now its like complete disregard. You guys are dropping Kobe to the Francis, Ellis, Marbury levels.

Ikr!!!!! Its unbelievable how these people are...

kobebabe
01-25-2014, 10:00 PM
People here on PSD are so short visioned and live for the moment. It's easier to embrace the current than the past. People have clearly forgotten what Kobe accomplished over the years as they live in the glory of KD shinning moment. I can't take anything away from KD coz he is nothing but special but comeon.....

3RDASYSTEM
01-25-2014, 10:34 PM
I keep telling people he(bean Bryant) is a good scorer, best backupguard turned starter scoring guard in history

but in no way in hell is he one of the ''''''''''''''''''''''best''''''''''''''' top 10 individual players in nba history

without 5 rings he(bean Bryant) is no more than TMAC-MELO-GERVIN, it is what it is

I notice all his fanatics will say 5 rings or 'scoring' binge is what makes him so 'great'...a good scorer is just that, BERNARD KING also was a pretty good scorer and nobody is screaming he is a top 30 player all time for that matter, but scoring wise yeah

like the article states from opening thread

KD is already on par and is better shooter naturally than bean or BRON, he has like 3 scoring titles in 6yrs, bean has 2 in like 18yrs and BRON has 1 in like 10yrs, and KD is winning the scoring race right now by at least 4ppg, basically his already before allstar break, so 4 scoring titles in 7yrs

Pierre The Poet
01-25-2014, 10:46 PM
Kevin Durant is awesome, straight awesome...I love that dude's game...but he's not gonna be a Kobe or a Lebron until he wins something

P&GRealist
01-26-2014, 12:36 AM
A scoring title is a scoring title. Period.

Put different ones into context and you'll see which ones were harder to compare. Always have to look at the level of the competition (the level of field) that you are competing with. If you're a 27 ppg guy and the next guy is a 26.5 etc., well yeah, you win the scoring title, congrats, but still not impressive than a guy who drops in the mid 30s and has 2 other guys in the 30s and then at least another 3-4 guys in the 27-29 ppg range. Now that **** is real.

But hey, I'll give props to KD this yr, looks like he has a good chance of getting in the 31-32 ppg range. That **** is awesome compared to his 2nd and 3rd scoring titles where he barely had to average 27-28 ppg.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-26-2014, 01:36 AM
Put different ones into context and you'll see which ones were harder to compare. Always have to look at the level of the competition (the level of field) that you are competing with. If you're a 27 ppg guy and the next guy is a 26.5 etc., well yeah, you win the scoring title, congrats, but still not impressive than a guy who drops in the mid 30s and has 2 other guys in the 30s and then at least another 3-4 guys in the 27-29 ppg range. Now that **** is real.

But hey, I'll give props to KD this yr, looks like he has a good chance of getting in the 31-32 ppg range. That **** is awesome compared to his 2nd and 3rd scoring titles where he barely had to average 27-28 ppg.

Well, seasons are different. Trends are different, and teammates are different. Kobe did not play with anyone close to Westbrook when he was putting up those numbers. We have seen Kobe drop his points per game when he has someone that can take off some of the load. He would have done that if he had Westy as well. Maybe it was not popular for players to be getting high PPG the years Durant won. Melo just had the highest scoring game since 2007. Players seemed to have gotten away from the high numbers of points for an individual in preference for the team game.

Chronz
01-26-2014, 04:03 AM
Fisher is a roll.player. Durant is a superstar. Superstars are defined by winning.

So I guess Elvin Hayes aka the Cancer is better than Karl Malone/Chuck

Chronz
01-26-2014, 04:28 AM
From what I have read, Dean Oliver was the first to get a job with an NBA team as a statistician. And that was in 2005.
Define statistician. Harvey Pollack has been tracking his own stats for the Sixers since damn near the beginning of the league. Per possession efficiency has been tracked by coaches and scouts before the egg heads got in the game. And the Lakers (IIRC) never even sent a rep to the MIT conference, and have a rather small/nonexistant stat department. What exactly are you saying here?



I agree that he would not have adjusted his game even if they made his advanced stats look better. I really believe he only cares about counting averages. If he really would have worried about shooting percentages than he would not have attempted 30 foot 3 point attempts just to see if he could hit it after he had just hit two in a row. He loved the heat check. He always used to do that. He enjoyed the ooh's and awe's of the crowd when he makes a very difficult shot over a easy layup. But again, my original post was not trying to pump up Kobe. It was more for MJ. Not sure why you keep inferring that I was trying to do anything for Kobe.
Agreed, lots of players get that from time to time, some are smarter than others when it comes to valuing the possession. In Kobes defense, he tends to knock that **** off when it comes to the post season/winning time.


What factors would you attribute to the "totality of efficiency?" TS% + O-Rtg+ PPP?

O-RTG


After he turned 28, he never had a ts% above 600. Including 6 seasons with the Bulls and the two with the Wizards. He did that 4 straight times before that season. Just counting his six seasons with the Bulls, his TS% on average was .553. He won 5 championships during that time so he was not over the hill yet. That .553 is just slightly lower than Kobe's .555 for his career.

Im not seeing the point here, the league continued to advance defensively while MJ was experiencing an athletic decline the likes of which werent drastic (until he joined the Wizards anyways). Thats pretty much what you see in players regular season production. But to point out some peaks and valleys, MJ at 29 was statistically better than MJ at 28, and was better at 32. Also, his final year with Chicago was especially troublesome for him considering Pippen played sparingly due to a bad back, while MJ dealt with a variety of injuries of his own before retiring.


I don't believe TS% is an irrelevant statistic at all. I don't think many others would either.
Agree to disagree, TS% while ignoring overall efficiency/usage/context etc... is irrelevant to me. The fact remains, MJ was FAR more efficient despite your irrelevant comparison of their TS% at different points in the careers.



Do you think Phil was preaching these stats? Phil did not grow up in that era either. I know he didn't teach it to the Bulls. I'm pretty sure he didn't start with the Lakers. Yes, Durant and Lebron would be great in any year you dropped them in. Doesn't change the fact that we are now judging all players of any era to new found metrics. Lebron and Durant have the benefit of being able to tailor their games to maximize the benefits of these new stats. Other players did not have that opportunity.

No coach really is, its the GM's who identify the players who fit that analysis. Bron had the benefit of being smart enough to study the game in all its forms, shame to those who stayed complacent.



You're going to use 45 games under Rudy with all new players except for Walton in their first year in the new system as evidence that Kobe was turnover prone? Doesn't fly.
Not at all, its pretty much been his MO his entire career. That Kobe struggled with learning such a simplistic offense doesn't bode well here. Anytime Kobe enters PG/top of the key playmaking role, his turnovers spike to the point of negligence.


He wasn't even that bad. Better then Lebron this year. Lebron's turnover% was the highest since his rookie year the first year he joined the Heat. I am sure you gave him the benefit of the doubt due to him playing with new teammates right?
Brons TO% is the highest its ever been this year, despite playing with basically the same guys. The reason is because hes overpassing, thats why despite his superior TS%, his overall efficiency is actually lower than the year prior. What matters is the overall picture, I believe Kobes game/efficiency suffers more when hes put into a playmaking role.


Same thing for Kobe last year. He has had two seasons as being the defacto point guard. Both of them under new systems, new coaches, new teammates, and last year with several different lineups due to injury. He has had his highest assist% of his career in those two seasons with a turnover % average of 13.6%. Exactly the same percentage that Lebron has had his four years with the Heat.
Is that suppose to exonerate him? His passing efficiency is still poor (compared to elite playmakers like Bron/Tmac that is) during those career high seasons. His overall efficiency in those seasons are among the worst of his career. Hes never been able to keep his turnovers under control unless within the confines of the triangle.


Whether you think its irrelevant or not, the numbers are the numbers. You can downplay it all you want. But I wasn't implying anything. Just posted a career shooting% stat that had Jordan better than Kobe by 1%. People can infer what they want with that fact.

Sadly, numbers always require context. Dont care about examinations that dont focus on explaining the numbers.


Maybe, maybe not. He may have succumb to the pressure of improving his mid range game like he did his first year with the Heat. He said after he talked to Spolstra and was informed of the importance of good shot selection he changed his game. His shooting numbers have skyrocket since then. I don't think he gets that talk in the 80's.
LOL. You really believe Spo taught him good shot selection? Hes been learning that every year of his career, hes been improving in that regard for years before Spo, hes that much a student of the game. I dont buy that he doesn't get that done without Spo. Either way, it wouldn't change the fact that we can STILL look at how they have fared vs their relative eras.

Chronz
01-26-2014, 04:32 AM
Because Jordan routinely put up seasons in the WS/48 that Durant is now, PER's over 30, and did it in an era that had two distinct disadvantages: Hand checking allowed, and advanced stats not realized.

No mentioning of the advantages MJ had? Hmm... wonder why?

Pierre The Poet
01-27-2014, 12:19 AM
without 5 rings he(bean Bryant) is no more than TMAC-MELO-GERVIN, it is what it is


Yeah, and that's exactly why he isn't TMAC-MELO-GERVIN, because HE GOT 5 RINGS. They couldn't.