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nyr2002nyr
01-21-2014, 03:49 PM
7 Reason why bringing AV to NY was
A blessing!

Back on May 29, 2013, Rangers general manager Glen Sather decided to pull the plug on controversial head coach John Tortorella.

Regardless of whether you appreciated Tortorella’s “safe-is-death” brand of hockey, his blunt honesty or fiery motivational techniques — one thing was clear. Tortorella’s act was tough to follow, given that he was a hop and skip away from guiding the Rangers to the 2012 Stanley Cup finals.

Sather could have appeased a large segment of the fan base by naming former franchise great Mark Messier as Tortorella’s successor. Instead, he opted to hire former Vancouver Canucks head coach Alain Vigneault — a decision that is paying off in spades.

It’s taken some growing pains, but the Rangers have finally figured out Vigneault’s possession-based uptempo system, which requires intensive skating, crisp, intricate passing and defensemen understanding when to join the attack.

The Rangers have won six of their past seven games and are firing on all cylinders offensively. Consecutive 4-1 victories over the Ottawa Senators and Washington Capitals have served as proof of the Rangers’ transformation under Vigneault. It’s night and day from Tortorella’s reign, when the Rangers would attempt to suffocate opponents and protect one-goal leads by collapsing deep in the defensive zone.

1. A.V. IS BEING REWARDED FOR GIVING KREIDER A LEGIT CHANCE

Chris Kreider has blossomed into a Calder Trophy candidate under Vigneault’s watch. A.V. is just starting to tap into Kreider’s full capabilities. As the years go on, Kreider and Vigneault will certainly benefit from each other’s presence.

Kreider was the first Rangers forward to really come to grips with Vigneault’s system. Although he started the season in the minors, he’s been a highly effective player since his October 20 call-up. More than statistics can point out, the 22-year-old has grown into an absolute force.

“Ever since he’s been back, he’s been one of our more efficient players,” Vigneault said earlier this season. “He uses his strength. He’s a good skater, he’s a strong skater, he could push the defense back and make them pay on the forecheck — and he’s real tough to handle in front of the net.”

Tortorella was accused of forcing Kreider into learning his defensive concepts first and foremost. Kreider wasn’t going to get big-time minutes under Tortorella unless he satisfied every one of Tortorella’s requirements. Tortorella’s obsession with fitting Kreider into his system appeared to stunt Kreider’s overall growth.

The difference this season is that Vigneault is maximizing Kreider’s natural gifts — instead of Torts’ failed approach of forcing a square peg into a round hole.

“Last year, he was kinda trying to reinvent himself,” teammate Brian Boyle said recently. “This year, he’s playing to his strengths. He’s always had a good understanding of the defensive zone, offensive zone and how to play. Sometimes when you’re not playing as many minutes, it can affect your confidence.”

2. VIGNEAULT TOOK THE TRAINING WHEELS OFF MCDONAGH

Under Vigneault, two-way defenseman Ryan McDonagh has been allowed the freedom to pick and choose his spots to join in the attack.

“Where he’s doing a good job in the offensive zone is reading when it’s time to come in and not come in,” Vigneault said on Thursday. “When the other team is playing it tighter, that’s when he’s beating the opposition, beating them inside when he sees that we’ve got good possession of the puck. He’s getting some great looks offensively.”

Tortorella seemed to guide McDonagh by hand too slowly. During Tortorella’s final playoff series as Rangers coach against the Bruins, he admitted that he did not utilize McDonagh enough on the power play.

“That’s on me,” Tortorella said last May. “I screwed that up not using him early enough, and I should have.”

This season, Vigneault is leaning on McDonagh to quarterback the Blueshirts’ power play and he’s handling the role with aplomb. McDonagh has recorded nine power play assists and 28 points in all situations. He’s on pace for 45 points this season, which would shatter his previous career best of 32.

3. HE CHOSE THE RIGHT MAN IN ARNEIL TO RUN THE POWER PLAY

Vigneault’s choice to delegate power play duties to assistant Scott Arneil has resulted in a remarkable transformation for a unit that slipped to some futile low points during Tortorella’s tenure in New York.

Last season, the Rangers’ inept power play was a point of frustration for players and fans. Now, it’s become a rallying point.

“The way the power play is playing right now is just lifting the whole team,” Henrik Lundqvist said after the Rangers’ 4-1 win over the Caps.

The Rangers are 20.9 percent (No. 7 overall) on the power play this season. That’s quite a leap considering the Blueshirts were 15.7 percent (23rd overall) on the power play last season with former assistant Mike Sullivan handling power play duties.

Arneil has kept the same units together, rather than chopping and changing parts.

More importantly, his 1-3-1 power play structure demands constant movement and allows dragging opposition defensemen away from shooting lanes. When worked effectively, this allows the Rangers to outnumber opponents around the net.

4. ZUCCA-HELLO! THE HOBBIT HAS MADE GOOD AFTER RECEIVING AN INCREASED ROLE UNDER A.V.

It seemed that under Tortorella, Mats Zuccarello was destined to remain a fringe player for the Rangers. Tortorella appeared to appreciate the grinding aspects of the Norweigan’s game, though he might have not fully understood the entire package of attributes that Zuccarello brought to the table.

Vigneault is harnessing Zuccarello’s incredible vision and playmaking abilities. He has given Zuccarello an increased role and his time on ice per game is actually a second higher than superstar Rick Nash. Zuccarello is averaging 17:17 TOI in 2013-14 and is seeing greater minutes on the power play.

No one saw this surge of production coming from Zuccarello. Through 50 games, Zuccarello has scored 13 goals and 22 assists. He’s currently on pace to record 21 goals, 36 assists and 57 points.

5. TALBOT’S EMERGENCE MIGHT HAVE NEVER HAPPENED HAD TORTS REMAINED IN NEW YORK

Sensational backup goalie Cam Talbot may have never gotten his chance to shine had Torts remained head coach of the Rangers. Had Tortorella been in a situation where Martin Biron struggled mightily, he may have opted to give Biron a longer leash. Biron proved to be a steady backup for Torts for three seasons, though Vigneault had seen enough after just two games.

Biron went 0-1-0 with a 7.65 goals-against average.

Vigneault was not married to Biron and constantly sought the advice of goaltending coach Benoit Allaire and ventured to Hartford to watch a number of Talbot’s games in person.

“On the goaltender position, I trust Benoit Allaire,” Vigneault said ahead of Talbot’s October 24 NHL debut. “That’s a position there where the coach and the goaltender have a real special rapport. In Cam’s case, Benoit has been saying to me for quite some time that he feels he’s ready. (Cam) said throughout training camp that he was ready to take the next step.”

Through the first 15 games of his NHL career, Talbot is 10-3-0 with a microscopic 1.63 GAA and an outstanding .940 save percentage.

6. A.V. KNOWS HOW TO MANAGE PERSONALITIES

The first time I noticed Vigneault’s positive effect on a struggling player was when Derek Dorsett had a rough start to the season. Dorsett was tending to commit costly penalties and had a reputation in Columbus for not being able to control his internal fire.

“We talked. He said he doesn’t want me to change,” Dorsett said earlier this season. “Obviously, you don’t want to get those penalties, but the same time — I’ve got to do what’s gotten me to this league and that’s playing hard and getting in on the forecheck. I just need to make sure I find that line and don’t cross it, and just keep playing my game.”

It seemed from that point forward, Dorsett modified his mentality, while still bringing fearlessness and aggression on the ice. Up until he suffered a broken fibula on January 3, Dorsett has performing a consistent and effective checking line role.

Even Dan Carcillo who’s only been with the Rangers for a matter of weeks immediately noticed Vigneault’s tendency for positive feedback.

“He’s really positive,” Carcillo said about Vigneault last week.

7. RANGERS WILL BE FRESHER AS THE PLAYOFFS APPROACH

After Vigneault’s appointment at Radio City Music Hall, Glen Sather took roundtable questions from reporters.

He admitted that Tortorella’s system “kicked the crap” out of players because the Rangers spent so much time defending their own end of the ice. Sather pointed to Tortorella wearing down players and leading to injuries.

“If you look at the injuries we had over the years, a number of guys really got the crap kicked out of them in our end because we constantly had to defend our own end,” Sather said in June. “That style was perfect here for a couple years, but I think it started to wear our team out. With the injuries that we had this year, it started to take a toll on our hockey club.”

During last year’s playoffs, both Ryan Callahan and Carl Hagelin played through torn shoulder labrums. Tortorella’s demanding style had become unsustainable.

At a point in late October, Lundqvist was dealing with an unspecified injury, which Vigneault only described at as an “irritation.” Vigneault opted to rest Lundqvist during a heavy stretch of games. It allowed a door to open for Talbot to shine tremendously in a backup role.

On Tuesday, Vigneault confirmed that Lundqvist is dealing with an illness and Talbot will start against the Islanders on Tuesday night at MSG. Lundqvist will not serve as backup against the Isles and the Rangers are in the process of summoning a backup goalie.

Vigneault has no issue turning to Talbot when Lundqvist has suffered bumps, bruises or health issues this season. Especially in an Olympic year, Vigneault will ensure that Lundqvist has plenty of energy for when the playoffs come along. He won’t run Lundqvist or other players into the ground. That in itself is vital to how far the Rangers progress during the postseason.

fingerbang
01-21-2014, 04:18 PM
The Rangers had more ponts through 48 games last year, more goals, and were better defensively.


Consecutive 4-1 victories over the Ottawa Senators and Washington Capitals have served as proof of the Rangers’ transformation under Vigneault. It’s night and day from Tortorella’s reign, when the Rangers would attempt to suffocate opponents and protect one-goal leads by collapsing deep in the defensive zone.

Do people forget that the Rangers have won two playoff series against the Caps and one against Ottawa over the last two seasons?

What the Rangers are doing right now isn't a big deal. I like the way they're playing over the last 10 games or so but it's always been about getting past the two elite teams in the East. The previous coach didn't get canned because they couldn't beat teams like Washington and Ottawa.

nyr2002nyr
01-21-2014, 04:39 PM
The Rangers had more ponts through 48 games last year, more goals, and were better defensively.



Do people forget that the Rangers have won two playoff series against the Caps and one against Ottawa over the last two seasons?

What the Rangers are doing right now isn't a big deal. I like the way they're playing over the last 10 games or so but it's always been about getting past the two elite teams in the East. The previous coach didn't get canned because they couldn't beat teams like Washington and Ottawa.


They werent learning a new system at the start of last season either. I get what you are saying but the truth is beating those 2 teams isint enough either

bsi
01-21-2014, 04:43 PM
Another overlooked thing that Vigneault did that Tortorella likely wouldn't have was given Pouliot time to find his game. I really doubt we would be seeing what we are seeing out of Pouliot with Torts behind the bench, especially since Pouliot really struggled at times getting too many penalties and coughing up the puck. Even Brad Richards for that matter, would he even be here with Tortorella behind the bench? It's speculation but I think we all pretty much know that Pouliot would have been in the dog house big time.

bsi
01-21-2014, 04:45 PM
The Rangers had more ponts through 48 games last year, more goals, and were better defensively.



Do people forget that the Rangers have won two playoff series against the Caps and one against Ottawa over the last two seasons?

What the Rangers are doing right now isn't a big deal. I like the way they're playing over the last 10 games or so but it's always been about getting past the two elite teams in the East. The previous coach didn't get canned because they couldn't beat teams like Washington and Ottawa.

The team was pretty healthy to start the year last year, and Hendrik was good from day one. This team took some time to figure out the way they were supposed to play as well we've only been healthy as a team for the last 5 or 6 games really, with Callahan coming back and Nash finally feeling comfortable enough to use his body. I agree that beating Ottawa is no measuring stick, I look at our game against Chicago as a good one though, and that was without Cally and Nash who was still finding his way.

fingerbang
01-21-2014, 04:46 PM
They werent learning a new system at the start of last season either. I get what you are saying but the truth is beating those 2 teams isint enough either

Well, they did have to deal with a huge lack of depth at the start of the season and Gaborik was terrible.

J4KOP99
01-21-2014, 04:51 PM
Everyone is happy because we have been playing well for a couple weeks now. Lets see if this team can keep it up and continue to improve. I still believe we are missing a couple pieces.

fingerbang
01-21-2014, 04:54 PM
The team was pretty healthy to start the year last year, and Hendrik was good from day one. This team took some time to figure out the way they were supposed to play as well we've only been healthy as a team for the last 5 or 6 games really, with Callahan coming back and Nash finally feeling comfortable enough to use his body. I agree that beating Ottawa is no measuring stick, I look at our game against Chicago as a good one though, and that was without Cally and Nash who was still finding his way.

It was also a very different team from the previous year that finished 1st in the East.

bsi
01-21-2014, 06:34 PM
The team was pretty healthy to start the year last year, and Hendrik was good from day one. This team took some time to figure out the way they were supposed to play as well we've only been healthy as a team for the last 5 or 6 games really, with Callahan coming back and Nash finally feeling comfortable enough to use his body. I agree that beating Ottawa is no measuring stick, I look at our game against Chicago as a good one though, and that was without Cally and Nash who was still finding his way.

It was also a very different team from the previous year that finished 1st in the East.

Ya but not much different than last season, though Kreider was sent down in favour of Pyatt or Powe. I doubt the team would have survived the injuries we had this year last year, and our playoff hopes were only saved by adding some new players to the bench at the deadline.

Also you'd have to admit that there is no way Torts would have stuck with Pouliot and maybe even Kreider this year and Pyatt would probably be still playing and maybe even Powe. The Canucks are struggling with their PP and Hendrik and Daniel look mediocre for the first time in their career, I was a Torts fan for a long time but he is too stubborn to change what isnt working. I just dont know why he doesnt tell his powerplay players in Vancouver, "do what worked for you last year", instead he is trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Our PP has been a problem back to the Renney days and everyone blamed the players but it is obvious that AV and Arniel know better how to utilize the players we have on the PP. Torts got us to respectability but he peaked 2 years ago with his system, hopefully AV can get us over the hump.

fingerbang
01-21-2014, 06:47 PM
Ya but not much different than last season, though Kreider was sent down in favour of Pyatt or Powe. I doubt the team would have survived the injuries we had this year last year, and our playoff hopes were only saved by adding some new players to the bench at the deadline.

Also you'd have to admit that there is no way Torts would have stuck with Pouliot and maybe even Kreider this year and Pyatt would probably be still playing and maybe even Powe. The Canucks are struggling with their PP and Hendrik and Daniel look mediocre for the first time in their career, I was a Torts fan for a long time but he is too stubborn to change what isnt working. I just dont know why he doesnt tell his powerplay players in Vancouver, "do what worked for you last year", instead he is trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Our PP has been a problem back to the Renney days and everyone blamed the players but it is obvious that AV and Arniel know better how to utilize the players we have on the PP. Torts got us to respectability but he peaked 2 years ago with his system, hopefully AV can get us over the hump.

The team that finished first in the East was changed pretty significantly that offseason.

There are also players playing worse under AV. Would Hank have struggled this much under Torts? I doubt it. What about Girardi, MDZ, and Nash's bad starts? People were and still are talking about those players being traded. CK is clearly a different player this year.

The PP is better, 5 on 5 is worse. There are trade-offs. Scoring is still down.

I really like the way MZA is playing but I'm waiting for someone to take his head off come playoffs. I can't believe opposing teams let him get away with some of the stuff he pulls.

Redfish
01-21-2014, 07:22 PM
So, a 10-15 game stretch of solid performance negates a horrific beginning 30 games, along with the substantial accomplishments of our prior coach?

I would be ecstatic if AV brings more success to the Rangers; and by success I mean victories; not an on-ice product that is more pleasing to the eyes of some fans. But it is way too early to suggest hiring AV was a blessing to this organization. Let's hope it proves to be the case.

In sports, teams and players are rarely as bad as their worst performance, or as good as their best. Let's enjoy the current stretch for what it is.

bsi
01-21-2014, 07:53 PM
So, a 10-15 game stretch of solid performance negates a horrific beginning 30 games, along with the substantial accomplishments of our prior coach?

I would be ecstatic if AV brings more success to the Rangers; and by success I mean victories; not an on-ice product that is more pleasing to the eyes of some fans. But it is way too early to suggest hiring AV was a blessing to this organization. Let's hope it proves to be the case.

In sports, teams and players are rarely as bad as their worst performance, or as good as their best. Let's enjoy the current stretch for what it is.

Not having Callahan, Hagelin, Staal and Nash for extended periods didnt help our start. Add that to the obvious problems transitioning to another system with new players in and out of the lineup and you get what we had the first half of the season. I think we have played well of late, I dont however think we are gonna continue dominating teams, I also dont think we will go back to that team we had at the start of the season either, that was injuries and a new system.

bsi
01-21-2014, 08:04 PM
Ya but not much different than last season, though Kreider was sent down in favour of Pyatt or Powe. I doubt the team would have survived the injuries we had this year last year, and our playoff hopes were only saved by adding some new players to the bench at the deadline.

Also you'd have to admit that there is no way Torts would have stuck with Pouliot and maybe even Kreider this year and Pyatt would probably be still playing and maybe even Powe. The Canucks are struggling with their PP and Hendrik and Daniel look mediocre for the first time in their career, I was a Torts fan for a long time but he is too stubborn to change what isnt working. I just dont know why he doesnt tell his powerplay players in Vancouver, "do what worked for you last year", instead he is trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Our PP has been a problem back to the Renney days and everyone blamed the players but it is obvious that AV and Arniel know better how to utilize the players we have on the PP. Torts got us to respectability but he peaked 2 years ago with his system, hopefully AV can get us over the hump.

The team that finished first in the East was changed pretty significantly that offseason.

There are also players playing worse under AV. Would Hank have struggled this much under Torts? I doubt it. What about Girardi, MDZ, and Nash's bad starts? People were and still are talking about those players being traded. CK is clearly a different player this year.

The PP is better, 5 on 5 is worse. There are trade-offs. Scoring is still down.

I really like the way MZA is playing but I'm waiting for someone to take his head off come playoffs. I can't believe opposing teams let him get away with some of the stuff he pulls.

Hank hadn't played well, I think it was the stress of the contract negotiations not working out in the offseason. Mdz was a frequent member of the Tortorella doghouse, I dont think anyone would think he was good for him. Girardi has been fine, not sure what everyone is complaining about and Nash was concussed. When everyone finally got healthy we were better. Our 5 on 5 game isnt worse, we had injuries it lowered our goal totals and stat wise yes we are lower 5 on 5 but that was mostly due to Nash, Callahan, Hagelin and Staal having been out for extended periods of time and Stepan missing training camp. Our 5 on 5 is fine now that everyone is back.

I agree with you on Zucs....I dont agree with the stuff he does as he is taking advantage of the fact he is too small to fight and no respecting 6 footer would embarass themselves by fighting him, but he is gonna have to answer for his actions one of these days, he is skilled enough he doesn't have to pull the tough guy act.

nyr2002nyr
01-21-2014, 08:44 PM
Ok I get it let's make every excuse when torts had no guys or "guys were under performing" but when it happens to AV it doesn't count. Now I get it.

Redfish
01-21-2014, 09:20 PM
Not having Callahan, Hagelin, Staal and Nash for extended periods didnt help our start. Add that to the obvious problems transitioning to another system with new players in and out of the lineup and you get what we had the first half of the season. I think we have played well of late, I dont however think we are gonna continue dominating teams, I also dont think we will go back to that team we had at the start of the season either, that was injuries and a new system.

There are always reasons and excuses.

It's just way too early to give accolades to AV since we've been playing very well for less games than we've played poorly, and it's only been about 50 games overall; not even a full season or playoffs representation.

We'll know in about a year when we can reasonably conclude whether this team has made progress and is better than recent years past, or has simply moved sideways or regressed.

bsi
01-22-2014, 01:03 AM
Ok I get it let's make every excuse when torts had no guys or "guys were under performing" but when it happens to AV it doesn't count. Now I get it.

Our PP was a mess with this exact team minus Pouliot. Thats on Torts, if we had a good PP last year who knows we might have beaten Boston, cus we had enough powerays that series. Tortorella never had to deal with injuries like we had this year. Underperforming could be caused by a lot of things that could be under control of the player or coach, injuries are not in that category, part of the game yes, but you can't be successful when your best players are watching from the stands and you have no decent players to fill in for them. I am not a Torts hater, I think he brings a lot to a team but his biggest fault was not getting a powerplay with the skill we had to use. His PK, defensive system are second to none but you need to capitalize on your powerplay, something he still has trouble with.

bsi
01-22-2014, 01:10 AM
Not having Callahan, Hagelin, Staal and Nash for extended periods didnt help our start. Add that to the obvious problems transitioning to another system with new players in and out of the lineup and you get what we had the first half of the season. I think we have played well of late, I dont however think we are gonna continue dominating teams, I also dont think we will go back to that team we had at the start of the season either, that was injuries and a new system.

There are always reasons and excuses.

It's just way too early to give accolades to AV since we've been playing very well for less games than we've played poorly, and it's only been about 50 games overall; not even a full season or playoffs representation.

We'll know in about a year when we can reasonably conclude whether this team has made progress and is better than recent years past, or has simply moved sideways or regressed.

Totally agree, I think Vigneault was dealt a bad had to start the season though, really with injuries, the road trip, shortened camp, and Lundqvists struggles all contributed to a slow start. I like that the team seems to be finding their way but I still think there is plenty of work to be done with the team. Either way, this current team had grown tired of Tortorella so I would expect a massive blow up or rebuild if he were still here or a terrible season. There really wasn't any choice, as I said before there is no going back, AV is our coach and he seems to be doing a decent job of it right now so everyone should get on board. I still wish Dubi was still here but there's no use bringing it up anymore, he has moved on so have I, same goes for Torts. Its time to move on.

Redfish
01-22-2014, 10:24 AM
Totally agree, I think Vigneault was dealt a bad had to start the season though, really with injuries, the road trip, shortened camp, and Lundqvists struggles all contributed to a slow start. I like that the team seems to be finding their way but I still think there is plenty of work to be done with the team. Either way, this current team had grown tired of Tortorella so I would expect a massive blow up or rebuild if he were still here or a terrible season. There really wasn't any choice, as I said before there is no going back, AV is our coach and he seems to be doing a decent job of it right now so everyone should get on board. I still wish Dubi was still here but there's no use bringing it up anymore, he has moved on so have I, same goes for Torts. Its time to move on.

Whether or not AV was dealt a bad hand to start the year is all subjective. I could say he came into the season unprepared with poor knowledge of who his players were and what roles they were suited for. Or I could say it shouldn't take a team 35 games to learn a new system; there seemed to be little transition in Vancouver. I could also say he played Pyatt and Pouliot way too much for the performance they were at. I could even say Hank's injury was a non-event since Talbot played like the best goalie in the league when he was behind net, and should have received more starts while Hank got his stuff together. And Gaborik, Callahan and Staal suffering major injuries while playing for Tortorella is not insignificant. As for the PP being on Torts, yes, that is true. But 5v5 is on AV; our sub-par defense is on AV. There are a number of pros and cons that AV has brought to the team this year. But, the gist of the post was hiring AV has been a blessing to this organization, right? The jury is still out and if anyone wants to judge him based on the initial 50 games into his tenure, you can only conclude it hasn't been successful, because we are not better off than we were the past several seasons. It's been a wash, at best, but like I said I would personally give him until this time next year. I am skeptical but AV deserves that time.

bsi
01-22-2014, 11:59 AM
Totally agree, I think Vigneault was dealt a bad had to start the season though, really with injuries, the road trip, shortened camp, and Lundqvists struggles all contributed to a slow start. I like that the team seems to be finding their way but I still think there is plenty of work to be done with the team. Either way, this current team had grown tired of Tortorella so I would expect a massive blow up or rebuild if he were still here or a terrible season. There really wasn't any choice, as I said before there is no going back, AV is our coach and he seems to be doing a decent job of it right now so everyone should get on board. I still wish Dubi was still here but there's no use bringing it up anymore, he has moved on so have I, same goes for Torts. Its time to move on.

Whether or not AV was dealt a bad hand to start the year is all subjective. I could say he came into the season unprepared with poor knowledge of who his players were and what roles they were suited for. Or I could say it shouldn't take a team 35 games to learn a new system; there seemed to be little transition in Vancouver. I could also say he played Pyatt and Pouliot way too much for the performance they were at. I could even say Hank's injury was a non-event since Talbot played like the best goalie in the league when he was behind net, and should have received more starts while Hank got his stuff together. And Gaborik, Callahan and Staal suffering major injuries while playing for Tortorella is not insignificant. As for the PP being on Torts, yes, that is true. But 5v5 is on AV; our sub-par defense is on AV. There are a number of pros and cons that AV has brought to the team this year. But, the gist of the post was hiring AV has been a blessing to this organization, right? The jury is still out and if anyone wants to judge him based on the initial 50 games into his tenure, you can only conclude it hasn't been successful, because we are not better off than we were the past several seasons. It's been a wash, at best, but like I said I would personally give him until this time next year. I am skeptical but AV deserves that time.

Its not really subjective at all, three of their top 6 from last year were out at the start and one of their top dmen were out, thats a fact. The struggles of Hank made that worse, and he was bad, couldn't stop a puck in the shootout even, something he always excelled at, something that has nothing to do with coach or the team in front of him, all him. Talbot was the better goalie but Hendrik is our #1, you gotta play him, he can't work it out from the bench. None of that is subjective. All of that plus the shortened training camp road trip out west and Stepan missing camp made it tougher for him to get everyone on the same page as well his top scorers were not there to use, thats a much tougher way to start the first half than if they were all there, thats a fact, he was dealt a tough hand to start.

Also I get it, you liked Torts, but he is gone and as much as it may not appear from my posts on the subject I am actually sick of talkin bout him haha. This will be my last torts post....I will post about the guy that actually coaches us, but not that other guy, he is irrelevant to this team and any talk how he would do here now is guesswork and will never be proven.

Redfish
01-22-2014, 02:42 PM
Its not really subjective at all, three of their top 6 from last year were out at the start and one of their top dmen were out, thats a fact. The struggles of Hank made that worse, and he was bad, couldn't stop a puck in the shootout even, something he always excelled at, something that has nothing to do with coach or the team in front of him, all him. Talbot was the better goalie but Hendrik is our #1, you gotta play him, he can't work it out from the bench. None of that is subjective. All of that plus the shortened training camp road trip out west and Stepan missing camp made it tougher for him to get everyone on the same page as well his top scorers were not there to use, thats a much tougher way to start the first half than if they were all there, thats a fact, he was dealt a tough hand to start.

Also I get it, you liked Torts, but he is gone and as much as it may not appear from my posts on the subject I am actually sick of talkin bout him haha. This will be my last torts post....I will post about the guy that actually coaches us, but not that other guy, he is irrelevant to this team and any talk how he would do here now is guesswork and will never be proven.

I just think we need to be objective on AV. He hasn't accomplished anything with this team yet, so to throw accolades on him is simply not warranted by any facts. There are always reasons and excuses to choose from when a team doesn't perform well; to select injuries overlooks the fact this team was not prepared well to start the season, for example. The Penguins have played with a predominant AHL squad for a large portion of the season and have won, big time. Many attribute that to Bylsma adjusting the Pens' system until injured players returned, yet AV chose to move forward with his system when faced with the same challenge. I don't have a problem with that, but it came at a price, short term. If the Rangers had won throughout those challenges, then AV may be a true blessing; otherwise it is all subjective, just as it would be suggestive if I said AV stinks. What I have been saying though is he has not accomplished anything yet; the team's performance is no better and in some respect not as good as prior seasons, and we won't know until around this time next season whether AV was a good choice for this team. It has nothing to do with, well, you know who :)

nyr2002nyr
01-22-2014, 02:51 PM
I just think we need to be objective on AV. He hasn't accomplished anything with this team yet, so to throw accolades on him is simply not warranted by any facts. There are always reasons and excuses to choose from when a team doesn't perform well; to select injuries overlooks the fact this team was not prepared well to start the season, for example. The Penguins have played with a predominant AHL squad for a large portion of the season and have won, big time. Many attribute that to Bylsma adjusting the Pens' system until injured players returned, yet AV chose to move forward with his system when faced with the same challenge. I don't have a problem with that, but it came at a price, short term. If the Rangers had won throughout those challenges, then AV may be a true blessing; otherwise it is all subjective, just as it would be suggestive if I said AV stinks. What I have been saying though is he has not accomplished anything yet; the team's performance is no better and in some respect not as good as prior seasons, and we won't know until around this time next season whether AV was a good choice for this team. It has nothing to do with, well, you know who :)


truth is since crazy Mike Keenan no coach we have had has accomplished anything. Either you win the cup or you lose

Redfish
01-22-2014, 02:56 PM
truth is since crazy Mike Keenan no coach we have had has accomplished anything. Either you win the cup or you lose

Amen to that!

nyr2002nyr
01-22-2014, 03:09 PM
Rangers acquire F Kevin Klein from the Nashville Preds I. Exchange for Michael Del Zotto

bsi
01-22-2014, 03:12 PM
Its not really subjective at all, three of their top 6 from last year were out at the start and one of their top dmen were out, thats a fact. The struggles of Hank made that worse, and he was bad, couldn't stop a puck in the shootout even, something he always excelled at, something that has nothing to do with coach or the team in front of him, all him. Talbot was the better goalie but Hendrik is our #1, you gotta play him, he can't work it out from the bench. None of that is subjective. All of that plus the shortened training camp road trip out west and Stepan missing camp made it tougher for him to get everyone on the same page as well his top scorers were not there to use, thats a much tougher way to start the first half than if they were all there, thats a fact, he was dealt a tough hand to start.

Also I get it, you liked Torts, but he is gone and as much as it may not appear from my posts on the subject I am actually sick of talkin bout him haha. This will be my last torts post....I will post about the guy that actually coaches us, but not that other guy, he is irrelevant to this team and any talk how he would do here now is guesswork and will never be proven.

I just think we need to be objective on AV. He hasn't accomplished anything with this team yet, so to throw accolades on him is simply not warranted by any facts. There are always reasons and excuses to choose from when a team doesn't perform well; to select injuries overlooks the fact this team was not prepared well to start the season, for example. The Penguins have played with a predominant AHL squad for a large portion of the season and have won, big time. Many attribute that to Bylsma adjusting the Pens' system until injured players returned, yet AV chose to move forward with his system when faced with the same challenge. I don't have a problem with that, but it came at a price, short term. If the Rangers had won throughout those challenges, then AV may be a true blessing; otherwise it is all subjective, just as it would be suggestive if I said AV stinks. What I have been saying though is he has not accomplished anything yet; the team's performance is no better and in some respect not as good as prior seasons, and we won't know until around this time next season whether AV was a good choice for this team. It has nothing to do with, well, you know who :)

I havent thrown accolades at him really, I like the direction the team is going is all.

Redfish
01-22-2014, 03:15 PM
I havent thrown accolades at him really, I like the direction the team is going is all.

Yes, I was referring to the original post headline of AV being a blessing to the organization. I do like the team's direction too. So I am very hopeful with AV, though it probably does not seem that way based on my posts.

Anyway, thanks for the insights you offer; not just this issue but many others.

bsi
01-22-2014, 06:15 PM
I havent thrown accolades at him really, I like the direction the team is going is all.

Yes, I was referring to the original post headline of AV being a blessing to the organization. I do like the team's direction too. So I am very hopeful with AV, though it probably does not seem that way based on my posts.

Anyway, thanks for the insights you offer; not just this issue but many others.

For sure...always a good debate with you.

SLY WILLIAMS
01-23-2014, 11:57 AM
I do not know if AV is a bad coach, a good coach or a great coach but when things seemed their worse this season he kept his composure and did not lose his head. He may have panicked inside like some of us fans but I think that showed some calm leadership. I also like that even when he benches a guy like Kreider, Mats, Pou, etc they do not have to feel like he is done with them. They will get another chance soon.

fingerbang
01-23-2014, 03:40 PM
I do not know if AV is a bad coach, a good coach or a great coach but when things seemed their worse this season he kept his composure and did not lose his head. He may have panicked inside like some of us fans but I think that showed some calm leadership. I also like that even when he benches a guy like Kreider, Mats, Pou, etc they do not have to feel like he is done with them. They will get another chance soon.

With the exception of the guy we traded yesterday.

SLY WILLIAMS
01-23-2014, 03:43 PM
With the exception of the guy we traded yesterday.

You do not feel like MDZ got a lot of chances to come back and play after he was benched?

nyr2002nyr
01-23-2014, 03:47 PM
You do not feel like MDZ got a lot of chances to come back and play after he was benched?


IMO he got plenty of chances with both coaches

fingerbang
01-23-2014, 03:55 PM
You do not feel like MDZ got a lot of chances to come back and play after he was benched?

Well did players under the previous coach not get chances to play after they were benched? Hagelin was put on the PP after Torts ripped him in the media. After Gaborik was benched for not backchecking he still played.

AV is a coach. He puts people in his doghouse like all the other coaches. He ships guys he doesn't like out of town just like other coaches. Go look at Cody Hodgson and now MDZ. He was notorious in Vancouver for getting on his defenseman. He's already ripped players publicly

I just don't get why he's held to a different standard, maybe because he's new?

SLY WILLIAMS
01-23-2014, 04:37 PM
Well did players under the previous coach not get chances to play after they were benched? Hagelin was put on the PP after Torts ripped him in the media. After Gaborik was benched for not backchecking he still played.

AV is a coach. He puts people in his doghouse like all the other coaches. He ships guys he doesn't like out of town just like other coaches. Go look at Cody Hodgson and now MDZ. He was notorious in Vancouver for getting on his defenseman. He's already ripped players publicly

I just don't get why he's held to a different standard, maybe because he's new?

I understand what you are saying there and maybe my less than positive feelings towards a past coach take away my impartiality at times. I thought I was just speaking about AV at the time but maybe I was not.

I did not feel that Mats, Krieder or Pou were put in a dog house by AV. They were sat when they were not producing and then given a good chance to come back in significant roles. Even if there was some constructive criticism I did not sense any hard feelings from the coach towards those players. I can not comment on what may have happened in Van. I'm just going by what I saw here this season.

fingerbang
01-23-2014, 04:43 PM
I understand what you are saying there and maybe my less than positive feelings towards a past coach take away my impartiality at times. I thought I was just speaking about AV at the time but maybe I was not.

I did not feel that Mats, Krieder or Pou were put in a dog house by AV. They were sat when they were not producing and then given a good chance to come back in significant roles. Even if there was some constructive criticism I did not sense any hard feelings from the coach towards those players. I can not comment on what may have happened in Van. I'm just going by what I saw here this season.

I just get a vibe from your post that he's some all forgiving figure. He did bench our veteran Vezina goalie and publicly criticize him in the media when it was painfully obvious that the defenses adjustments to his own scheme were largely at fault.

And he has played MDZ on the wrong side this year. I'm not sure if he got a fair shake.

SLY WILLIAMS
01-23-2014, 04:54 PM
I just get a vibe from your post that he's some all forgiving figure. He did bench our veteran Vezina goalie and publicly criticize him in the media when it was painfully obvious that the defenses adjustments to his own scheme were largely at fault.

And he has played MDZ on the wrong side this year. I'm not sure if he got a fair shake.

I can understand your point of view. I did not want MDZ traded even though this trade might end up helping us. I liked MDZ. I think all coaches will bench players at times and all coaches will criticize players at times including AV. I do think the previous coach would go too far at times but that is just my own personal opinion.

bsi
01-23-2014, 05:42 PM
I understand what you are saying there and maybe my less than positive feelings towards a past coach take away my impartiality at times. I thought I was just speaking about AV at the time but maybe I was not.

I did not feel that Mats, Krieder or Pou were put in a dog house by AV. They were sat when they were not producing and then given a good chance to come back in significant roles. Even if there was some constructive criticism I did not sense any hard feelings from the coach towards those players. I can not comment on what may have happened in Van. I'm just going by what I saw here this season.

I just get a vibe from your post that he's some all forgiving figure. He did bench our veteran Vezina goalie and publicly criticize him in the media when it was painfully obvious that the defenses adjustments to his own scheme were largely at fault.

And he has played MDZ on the wrong side this year. I'm not sure if he got a fair shake.

Our system had little to do with Hanks struggles, he let weak goals in from long range and bad angles and was giving up an empty net in shootouts and breakaways, something he usually excels at. I dont know if it was the contract, the olympics , if he never showed up in game shape or all of them things but Hank wasnt Hank until recently. If it was that he was getting too many quality shots or whatever I could maybe agree with you but the goals he was letting in were stinky and he was terrible in the shootout.

fingerbang
01-23-2014, 06:52 PM
Our system had little to do with Hanks struggles, he let weak goals in from long range and bad angles and was giving up an empty net in shootouts and breakaways, something he usually excels at. I dont know if it was the contract, the olympics , if he never showed up in game shape or all of them things but Hank wasnt Hank until recently. If it was that he was getting too many quality shots or whatever I could maybe agree with you but the goals he was letting in were stinky and he was terrible in the shootout.

I bet the new system had nothing to do with the poor play from our defensers either. :rolleyes:

bsi
01-23-2014, 08:02 PM
Our system had little to do with Hanks struggles, he let weak goals in from long range and bad angles and was giving up an empty net in shootouts and breakaways, something he usually excels at. I dont know if it was the contract, the olympics , if he never showed up in game shape or all of them things but Hank wasnt Hank until recently. If it was that he was getting too many quality shots or whatever I could maybe agree with you but the goals he was letting in were stinky and he was terrible in the shootout.

I bet the new system had nothing to do with the poor play from our defensers either. :rolleyes:

Which ones are you talking about? McDonagh who has had a career year? Staal who missed half the year? MDZ who has been in the doghouse since his second year? I think the D had initially struggled with the system but that was the first 15 or 20 games, nothing we werent expecting, unless ofcourse you thought they were all just gonna start playing a system with their eyes shut out of the gate. The problem with a new system for forwards and D and using it in the NHL is that things have to happen out of instinct and that only happens in time as their first reaction is to play the old way. Goaltending has nothing to do with the system, you stop the puck when its shot at you, you dont move to a different side of the net from one system to the other. Claiming a system change caused Hendrik to not stop the puck on shootouts, breakaways and wide open point shots is looking for excuses where there are none. Hank wasnt ready to play, his movements were slow, his positioning was poor and he was mentally not in the game. If he was sharp in the shootout I might consider your theory but he went from best to worst in the league on shootouts, thats just him vs the player nobody else between them.

nyr2002nyr
01-23-2014, 09:59 PM
Which ones are you talking about? McDonagh who has had a career year? Staal who missed half the year? MDZ who has been in the doghouse since his second year? I think the D had initially struggled with the system but that was the first 15 or 20 games, nothing we werent expecting, unless ofcourse you thought they were all just gonna start playing a system with their eyes shut out of the gate. The problem with a new system for forwards and D and using it in the NHL is that things have to happen out of instinct and that only happens in time as their first reaction is to play the old way. Goaltending has nothing to do with the system, you stop the puck when its shot at you, you dont move to a different side of the net from one system to the other. Claiming a system change caused Hendrik to not stop the puck on shootouts, breakaways and wide open point shots is looking for excuses where there are none. Hank wasnt ready to play, his movements were slow, his positioning was poor and he was mentally not in the game. If he was sharp in the shootout I might consider your theory but he went from best to worst in the league on shootouts, thats just him vs the player nobody else between them.

It's painfully obvious not matter what anyone says he is still upset about Torts

fingerbang
01-23-2014, 10:27 PM
Which ones are you talking about? McDonagh who has had a career year? Staal who missed half the year? MDZ who has been in the doghouse since his second year? I think the D had initially struggled with the system but that was the first 15 or 20 games, nothing we werent expecting, unless ofcourse you thought they were all just gonna start playing a system with their eyes shut out of the gate. The problem with a new system for forwards and D and using it in the NHL is that things have to happen out of instinct and that only happens in time as their first reaction is to play the old way. Goaltending has nothing to do with the system, you stop the puck when its shot at you, you dont move to a different side of the net from one system to the other. Claiming a system change caused Hendrik to not stop the puck on shootouts, breakaways and wide open point shots is looking for excuses where there are none. Hank wasnt ready to play, his movements were slow, his positioning was poor and he was mentally not in the game. If he was sharp in the shootout I might consider your theory but he went from best to worst in the league on shootouts, thats just him vs the player nobody else between them.

McDonagh has had a career year offensively. He's had his fair share of struggles. So have Girardi, Moore, Stralman, Staal, and MDZ. If you think this team has played the kind of defense they're capable of then you're kidding yourself. Even the players on the team came out and said that their recent hot streak was due to playing better d. Remember all the quotes about how better d has led to to more offense?

The shootout is not some sort of barometer for goaltending. Rask has been worse than Lundqvist and he'll most likely be a Vezina finalist when the season's over.

As far as positioning goes, I've actually read on blogs and forums that Lundqvist shouldn't be playing "*** deep" even though he's done it his whole career. I'm not saying that you said it but people have. Hank was actually turned into whipping boy for awhile which is hilarious to me.

bsi
01-24-2014, 01:18 AM
Which ones are you talking about? McDonagh who has had a career year? Staal who missed half the year? MDZ who has been in the doghouse since his second year? I think the D had initially struggled with the system but that was the first 15 or 20 games, nothing we werent expecting, unless ofcourse you thought they were all just gonna start playing a system with their eyes shut out of the gate. The problem with a new system for forwards and D and using it in the NHL is that things have to happen out of instinct and that only happens in time as their first reaction is to play the old way. Goaltending has nothing to do with the system, you stop the puck when its shot at you, you dont move to a different side of the net from one system to the other. Claiming a system change caused Hendrik to not stop the puck on shootouts, breakaways and wide open point shots is looking for excuses where there are none. Hank wasnt ready to play, his movements were slow, his positioning was poor and he was mentally not in the game. If he was sharp in the shootout I might consider your theory but he went from best to worst in the league on shootouts, thats just him vs the player nobody else between them.

McDonagh has had a career year offensively. He's had his fair share of struggles. So have Girardi, Moore, Stralman, Staal, and MDZ. If you think this team has played the kind of defense they're capable of then you're kidding yourself. Even the players on the team came out and said that their recent hot streak was due to playing better d. Remember all the quotes about how better d has led to to more offense?

The shootout is not some sort of barometer for goaltending. Rask has been worse than Lundqvist and he'll most likely be a Vezina finalist when the season's over.

As far as positioning goes, I've actually read on blogs and forums that Lundqvist shouldn't be playing "*** deep" even though he's done it his whole career. I'm not saying that you said it but people have. Hank was actually turned into whipping boy for awhile which is hilarious to me.

The shootout isnt a barometer for everyone no, but Hank always excelled at it, was always top of the league in shootouts and when he struggled so much with it it shows a bigger problem than just a system change because there are no systems in shootouts. Look Hank struggled, he was letting wide open point shots in that he never would have before, he just wasnt sharp, maybe he needed to adjust to the system too but really he was bad one on one, in shootouts and was letting weak goals that any goalie in the league should have gotten.

I can get that the team as a whole struggled to have the system become instinct at first, that's not really the fault of the coach, it was a combination of a new system and people in and out of the lineup all year. Remember Fast, Miller, Mashinter, Pyatt, Powe, Faulk, McIlrath, and Conner Allen all played for us the first part of the year. We dont havr the AHL depth to be short high level players, and that slowed us down. Having said that, the team has gotten the system down the last 20 games, everyone is healthy and Hank is playing well, what is there to complain about?

nyr2002nyr
01-24-2014, 10:21 AM
The shootout isnt a barometer for everyone no, but Hank always excelled at it, was always top of the league in shootouts and when he struggled so much with it it shows a bigger problem than just a system change because there are no systems in shootouts. Look Hank struggled, he was letting wide open point shots in that he never would have before, he just wasnt sharp, maybe he needed to adjust to the system too but really he was bad one on one, in shootouts and was letting weak goals that any goalie in the league should have gotten.

I can get that the team as a whole struggled to have the system become instinct at first, that's not really the fault of the coach, it was a combination of a new system and people in and out of the lineup all year. Remember Fast, Miller, Mashinter, Pyatt, Powe, Faulk, McIlrath, and Conner Allen all played for us the first part of the year. We dont havr the AHL depth to be short high level players, and that slowed us down. Having said that, the team has gotten the system down the last 20 games, everyone is healthy and Hank is playing well, what is there to complain about?


Torts is gone obvioulsy and he is still LIVID

fingerbang
01-24-2014, 04:41 PM
The shootout isnt a barometer for everyone no, but Hank always excelled at it, was always top of the league in shootouts and when he struggled so much with it it shows a bigger problem than just a system change because there are no systems in shootouts. Look Hank struggled, he was letting wide open point shots in that he never would have before, he just wasnt sharp, maybe he needed to adjust to the system too but really he was bad one on one, in shootouts and was letting weak goals that any goalie in the league should have gotten.

I can get that the team as a whole struggled to have the system become instinct at first, that's not really the fault of the coach, it was a combination of a new system and people in and out of the lineup all year. Remember Fast, Miller, Mashinter, Pyatt, Powe, Faulk, McIlrath, and Conner Allen all played for us the first part of the year. We dont havr the AHL depth to be short high level players, and that slowed us down. Having said that, the team has gotten the system down the last 20 games, everyone is healthy and Hank is playing well, what is there to complain about?

A lot of the goals I saw people get on Hank for were top corner rips over his shoulders which he's let up his whole career. On ******** they'd freak out if he let up a breakaway goal and call him a bum. The production we're seeing out of Hank is similar to what we got out of him during the Renney years, back when we had a bad defense.

fingerbang
01-24-2014, 04:46 PM
Torts is gone obvioulsy and he is still LIVID

Yea, because I blamed the defense that has struggled, given up bad turnovers, and bad odd man rushes opposed to one of the most consistent tenured Rangers in the team's history...

If I had only watched this season I'd really wonder how Girardi and Staal were former all-stars. DZ just got traded so it's pretty obvious he hasn't played well in the new system and Stralman looks like crap too. On the other hand you'd have games where Hank would make a bunch of really great saves and they'd still give up four goals and he'd take the blame.

bsi
01-24-2014, 06:27 PM
The shootout isnt a barometer for everyone no, but Hank always excelled at it, was always top of the league in shootouts and when he struggled so much with it it shows a bigger problem than just a system change because there are no systems in shootouts. Look Hank struggled, he was letting wide open point shots in that he never would have before, he just wasnt sharp, maybe he needed to adjust to the system too but really he was bad one on one, in shootouts and was letting weak goals that any goalie in the league should have gotten.

I can get that the team as a whole struggled to have the system become instinct at first, that's not really the fault of the coach, it was a combination of a new system and people in and out of the lineup all year. Remember Fast, Miller, Mashinter, Pyatt, Powe, Faulk, McIlrath, and Conner Allen all played for us the first part of the year. We dont havr the AHL depth to be short high level players, and that slowed us down. Having said that, the team has gotten the system down the last 20 games, everyone is healthy and Hank is playing well, what is there to complain about?

A lot of the goals I saw people get on Hank for were top corner rips over his shoulders which he's let up his whole career. On ******** they'd freak out if he let up a breakaway goal and call him a bum. The production we're seeing out of Hank is similar to what we got out of him during the Renney years, back when we had a bad defense.

What has changed then, is our defense good now? Hank is good now, so I would assume that if it was our defense making him look bad then it would stand to reason that if Hank was playing well then our D must be too.