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View Full Version : Kobe's take on a number of issues with the NBA today



DreamShaker
01-21-2014, 12:31 AM
http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=10325177&city=chicago

Kobe on how the rules have changed the game:

"It's more of a finesse game," Bryant said before the Lakers played the Chicago Bulls on Monday. "It's more small ball, which, personally, I don't really care much for. I like kind of smash-mouth, old-school basketball because that's what I grew up watching. I also think it's much, much less physical. Some of the flagrant fouls that I see called nowadays, it makes me nauseous. You can't touch a guy without it being a flagrant foul."

Kobe on hand-checking:

"I like the contact," Bryant said. "As a defensive player, if you enjoy playing defense, that's what you want. You want to be able to put your hands on a guy. You want to be able to hand check a little bit. The truth is, it makes the game [where] players have to be more skillful. Nowadays, literally anybody can get out there and get to the basket and you can't touch anybody. Back then, if guys put their hands on you, you had to have the skill to be able to go both ways, change direction, post up, you had to have a mid-range game because you didn't want to go all the way to the basket because you would get knocked *** over tea kettle. So I think playing the game back then required much more skill."

On One and Done:

"We probably see players that came out of high school were much more successful on average than players that went to college for a year," Bryant said. "It seems like the system really isn't teaching players anything when they go to college. You go to college, you play, you're showcased and you come to the pros. That's always been the big argument: As a player, you have to go to college, you have to develop your skills and so forth and so on and then come to the league. So, we kind of got sold on that, sold on that dream a little bit and, fortunately, I didn't really listen too much to it. Neither did KG [Kevin Garnett], neither did LeBron [James] and that worked out pretty well for our careers."

On passing the torch:

"I've never looked at it as the torch is being passed," Bryant said. "Even when the Magic [Johnson], Michael [Jordan] or [Larry] Bird, that kind of transition from Dr. J [Julius Erving], as a kid growing up I always looked at it as athletes represent different things. It's like what Magic represents to the game, what Bird represents to the game is different than what Michael represents to the game. It's not the same torch. They're picking up their own thing and they're carrying their own generation their own way.

"So, I don't look at it as a passing of the torch. I look at it as different athletes doing different things. What LeBron does is different than what KD [Kevin Durant] does. What they both do is different than what I do and so forth and so on."


On his chances of playing for the USA, with a parting shot to Pau:

"Nope," Bryant said. "I'll go and spectate. Maybe I'll go watch Pau [Gasol] win another silver."

kobe4thewinbang
01-21-2014, 12:58 AM
http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=10325177&city=chicago

Kobe on how the rules have changed the game:

"It's more of a finesse game," Bryant said before the Lakers played the Chicago Bulls on Monday. "It's more small ball, which, personally, I don't really care much for. I like kind of smash-mouth, old-school basketball because that's what I grew up watching. I also think it's much, much less physical. Some of the flagrant fouls that I see called nowadays, it makes me nauseous. You can't touch a guy without it being a flagrant foul."

Kobe on hand-checking:

"I like the contact," Bryant said. "As a defensive player, if you enjoy playing defense, that's what you want. You want to be able to put your hands on a guy. You want to be able to hand check a little bit. The truth is, it makes the game [where] players have to be more skillful. Nowadays, literally anybody can get out there and get to the basket and you can't touch anybody. Back then, if guys put their hands on you, you had to have the skill to be able to go both ways, change direction, post up, you had to have a mid-range game because you didn't want to go all the way to the basket because you would get knocked *** over tea kettle. So I think playing the game back then required much more skill."

On One and Done:

"We probably see players that came out of high school were much more successful on average than players that went to college for a year," Bryant said. "It seems like the system really isn't teaching players anything when they go to college. You go to college, you play, you're showcased and you come to the pros. That's always been the big argument: As a player, you have to go to college, you have to develop your skills and so forth and so on and then come to the league. So, we kind of got sold on that, sold on that dream a little bit and, fortunately, I didn't really listen too much to it. Neither did KG [Kevin Garnett], neither did LeBron [James] and that worked out pretty well for our careers."

On passing the torch:

"I've never looked at it as the torch is being passed," Bryant said. "Even when the Magic [Johnson], Michael [Jordan] or [Larry] Bird, that kind of transition from Dr. J [Julius Erving], as a kid growing up I always looked at it as athletes represent different things. It's like what Magic represents to the game, what Bird represents to the game is different than what Michael represents to the game. It's not the same torch. They're picking up their own thing and they're carrying their own generation their own way.

"So, I don't look at it as a passing of the torch. I look at it as different athletes doing different things. What LeBron does is different than what KD [Kevin Durant] does. What they both do is different than what I do and so forth and so on."


On his chances of playing for the USA, with a parting shot to Pau:

"Nope," Bryant said. "I'll go and spectate. Maybe I'll go watch Pau [Gasol] win another silver."I wonder if there are any players that actually like the "softer" league nowadays. Still, interesting to see Kobe talk about it.

DreamShaker
01-21-2014, 01:05 AM
I wonder if there are any players that actually like the "softer" league nowadays. Still, interesting to see Kobe talk about it.

He also said elite players are good regardless of the rules, but it is interesting he said it takes less skill to play these days. I wonder which guys he has in mind?

kobe4thewinbang
01-21-2014, 01:09 AM
He also said elite players are good regardless of the rules, but it is interesting he said it takes less skill to play these days. I wonder which guys he has in mind?Maybe little guys that can get buckets in the paint without getting clobbered like Iverson. Or shooters that aren't much outside of shooting 3's.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 01:10 AM
I didn't particularly agree with many of these takes. For one, the lack of hand checking and the "soft" play of today's NBA are the same things Kobe has dealt with for almost a decade. The guy has played most of his career in this supposedly "soft" era and, one could argue, has benefited from it as much as any player over the last decade.

Secondly, I've always been a proponent that players should have to go to college for at least two seasons. It has nothing to do with talent as much as it does maturity. Not only will it help develop a young player's game, but college is where so many boys become men. I think you'd have a lot less immaturity from young players in the league if most guys stayed in college a little longer.

However, I really enjoyed how he debunked the whole "passing the torch" crap. Fans and media like everything in sports to be wrapped up in neat packages with stars passing on their stardom to the next set of NBA players. But it's never like that. Different guys play the game differently, with different intentions, motivations and goals.

kobe4thewinbang
01-21-2014, 01:12 AM
I didn't particularly agree with many of these takes. For one, the lack of hand checking and the "soft" play of today's NBA are the same things Kobe has dealt with for almost a decade. The guy has played most of his career in this supposedly "soft" era and, one could argue, has benefited from it as much as any player over the last decade. I think Kobe is reaching, but he did play in the early 2000s when some hard fouls and whatnot were still going on. He also got hit a lot during the war with the Phoenix Suns, no fouls called.

Matter.
01-21-2014, 01:28 AM
so soft

ThuglifeJ
01-21-2014, 01:51 AM
Kobe is 100% spot on. NBA is ****ing weak right now.

holditdown
01-21-2014, 02:00 AM
Kobe is 100% spot on. NBA is ****ing weak right now.

I can't imagine Rose, Westbrook and Curry shooting this much back in the day. Those little guys would get hammered.

These little point guards wouldn't stand a chance.

THE MTL
01-21-2014, 02:12 AM
Kobe is right but he acting like he hasnt benefited greatly by the way the game is played now

holditdown
01-21-2014, 02:13 AM
I thought hand checking was eliminated around 2004. Just because it helped Kobe doesn't mean he likes the rule. Some people are little pansies like that.

Isn't it ironic that as soon as the game opened up all of sudden the 3pt shot exploded? Small ball was born? The mid range wing game started to die? And big men stopped winning MVP's?

The softer league is just that, a league for the smaller guys to get to the rim without getting hurt.

NetsPaint
01-21-2014, 02:20 AM
Let's not forget about carrying the ball being allowed, which Kobe does more obvious than anybody/most.

curtcocaine
01-21-2014, 02:22 AM
Win another silver lol

kobe4thewinbang
01-21-2014, 02:59 AM
Win another silver lolIf only Gasol played that hard every night for the Lakers, though he has had 20+ two games in a row, I believe.

kobe4thewinbang
01-21-2014, 02:59 AM
Let's not forget about carrying the ball being allowed, which Kobe does more obvious than anybody/most.Every player does. Games would be impossible if correct pivoting and whatnot was required.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 10:21 AM
I can't imagine Rose, Westbrook and Curry shooting this much back in the day. Those little guys would get hammered.

These little point guards wouldn't stand a chance.

Actually, "back in the day" these "little point guards" would have been 2-guards and not point guards. That's how the league has evolved over the last 10-15 years. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't have been able to still score at a hyper productive pace, especially Curry, who is on pace to be the greatest perimeter shooter of all time.

Also, you act as if point guards have never been productive scorers prior to this era of players. Tell that to Jerry West, Oscar Robertston, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Calvin Murphy, Jo Jo White, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway and Allen Iverson. And those are just guys off the top of my head.

D-Leethal
01-21-2014, 10:35 AM
PREACH MAMBA PREACH

"Back then, if guys put their hands on you, you had to have the skill to be able to go both ways, change direction, post up, you had to have a mid-range game because you didn't want to go all the way to the basket because you would get knocked *** over tea kettle. So I think playing the game back then required much more skill."

TRUTH

"The mid range game is a lost art in today's NBA" - Walt "Clyde" Frazier

You want to play like James Harden 10-15 years ago, you would end up in a hospital bed.

Slug3
01-21-2014, 11:14 AM
Why is Kobe acting like he played in the 70s/80s?

D-Leethal
01-21-2014, 12:04 PM
Why is Kobe acting like he played in the 70s/80s?

He specifically said "thats what I grew up watching" as for his fondness of that type of game. Either way, it takes time for rule changes to dictate gameplay changes. You don't eliminate hand checking and eliminate the mid range game overnight. It takes a couple generations of players to come in and breed that newfound style of play once the rule changes are enacted. Its a 3ball + rim league. There is rarely anything in between because the rule changes dictate that as the safest, surest, most efficient way to play and there is absolutely no reason to NOT play that way.

cmellofan15
01-21-2014, 01:26 PM
Kobe played for two years before hand checking was banned, how can he really miss it?

And anyways, the better defenders are the ones who don't need to put their hands on you to lock you up. Players are more skillful nowadays (aside from the big men) because of the intelligence and athleticism required to play defense in a one on one match up or in a scheme. The pacers, pistons, spurs (even though they were a little more physical), bulls teams are all testaments of that.

As for Kobe talking about missing the basketball that grew up watching is kind of funny considering he was one of the pioneers in turning the game from that into what it is today. But he was watching the game then and is back to watching the game now, not surprising that he of all people made the comparisons.

nickdymez
01-21-2014, 01:30 PM
I didn't particularly agree with many of these takes. For one, the lack of hand checking and the "soft" play of today's NBA are the same things Kobe has dealt with for almost a decade. The guy has played most of his career in this supposedly "soft" era and, one could argue, has benefited from it as much as any player over the last decade.

Secondly, I've always been a proponent that players should have to go to college for at least two seasons. It has nothing to do with talent as much as it does maturity. Not only will it help develop a young player's game, but college is where so many boys become men. I think you'd have a lot less immaturity from young players in the league if most guys stayed in college a little longer.

However, I really enjoyed how he debunked the whole "passing the torch" crap. Fans and media like everything in sports to be wrapped up in neat packages with stars passing on their stardom to the next set of NBA players. But it's never like that. Different guys play the game differently, with different intentions, motivations and goals.

Surprise, surprise

nickdymez
01-21-2014, 01:32 PM
I knew i would come in here and see a Kobe passive aggresive bash fest. Everything he said was safe. He didnt say anthing controversial at all.

flea
01-21-2014, 01:52 PM
I agree with Kobe, I prefer the old rules. I don't think it's an awful switch for the NBA, but it's a calculated one that makes them more money. It's why I have always preferred the college game - while the officials aren't necessarily the greatest in every game they would usually call a consistent game (which is all I ask).

With college changing now to model the NBA I'm not sure where we're going to see good basketball. You can tell, though, that the college officials aren't entirely comfortable with calling the game to the letter of the rule. In late, close, and good games they have been letting them play (except Kentucky). Watching a series of dribble penetrations result in a wild shot from a guard's hip and 2 shots at the line is not real basketball.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 03:17 PM
Surprise, surprise

I love how you could have actually responded to me and address my points, but instead chose to pick the first sentence out and make this a "Kobe hatred" discussion when it didn't have to be. You stay classy, Kobephiles! ;)

nickdymez
01-21-2014, 03:20 PM
I love how you could have actually responded to me and address my points, but instead chose to pick the first sentence out and make this a "Kobe hatred" discussion when it didn't have to be. You stay classy, Kobephiles! ;)

Address your points? There is no use. Your first sentence let me know that it was the usual banter from you in regards to Kobe. Hate whatever he does or says...

Cal827
01-21-2014, 03:31 PM
My main issue is the inconsistency of the refs. It's really annoying to watch a game, where the refs are calling it like in the 90s, early 2000s on one end, and calling every little thing on the other. A while back, I remember a game between the Raptors and Heat a couple years back where Derozan was essentially dragged down by Jones or Wade and there wasn't a call, but on the subsequent fast break, Lebron was fouled on a Lay-up by a Raptor who was trying to get out of the way, but just touched his jersey :facepalm:

lol, Kobe benefited from the some of the annoying calls too though, as has Harden, Lebron, Wade, Rose, Parker, etc

flea
01-21-2014, 03:39 PM
The whole "star calls" idea, which is basically assumed with the modern NBA fan, makes a mockery of the sport and of competition. That (along with media debacles like "The Decision") is why the NBA is more akin to the WWE than NFL/MLB in a lot of fans minds.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 03:55 PM
Address your points? There is no use. Your first sentence let me know that it was the usual banter from you in regards to Kobe. Hate whatever he does or says...

That's ****ing ignorant. I just said I didn't agree with his takes. And, for the record, I hardly "hate whatever Kobe does or says." I have a tremendous amount of respect for the guy, and have said so in dozens of threads on this site. You overlook that just because I tend to disagree to the extent at which you love him.

Plus, my view of him as a player has nothing to do with his or my opinions on the game of basketball. I've never liked "One and Done," and I think players and fans way too often call today's brand of basketball "soft." I would say the same thing in response to any NBA player who took opposing stances.

But, please, continue to completely ignore the topic at hand and spew ignorance all over the place. It's posters like you who make the NBA forum so frustrating when there are dozens of competent, knowledgeable people who just want to talk basketball.

nickdymez
01-21-2014, 03:58 PM
That's ****ing ignorant. I just said I didn't agree with his takes. And, for the record, I hardly "hate whatever Kobe does or says." I have a tremendous amount of respect for the guy, and have said so in dozens of threads on this site. You overlook that just because I tend to disagree to the extent at which you love him.

Plus, my view of him as a player has nothing to do with his or my opinions on the game of basketball. I've never liked "One and Done," and I think players and fans way too often call today's brand of basketball "soft." I would say the same thing in response to any NBA player who took opposing stances.

But, please, continue to completely ignore the topic at hand and spew ignorance all over the place. It's posters like you who make the NBA forum so frustrating when there are dozens of competent, knowledgeable people who just want to talk basketball.

No, I addressed the topic bro. Try again. Your no better than me on this forum.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 04:00 PM
The whole "star calls" idea, which is basically assumed with the modern NBA fan, makes a mockery of the sport and of competition. That (along with media debacles like "The Decision") is why the NBA is more akin to the WWE than NFL/MLB in a lot of fans minds.

I hated the Decision, too, but I hardly think the average sports fan views the NBA as the WWE. Hell, the NFL has just as much ridiculous media attention as the NBA, if not more so. The week leading up to the Super Bowl is just an unending supply of non-stories and ridiculous details, interviews or comments getting totally blown out of proportion. And if you want to talk about "star calls," I think the NFL often gives a similar benefit of the doubt to its start QBs at times.

If anything, I think the NBA and the NFL have done a superior job of staying relevant, implementing new technological advances and changing their games to meet the strengths of their sports and their athletes than MLB. Baseball is the Republican of the professional sports world, determined to keep archaic practices and place and refusing to change in spite of changes in society.

Bruno
01-21-2014, 04:03 PM
I didn't particularly agree with many of these takes. For one, the lack of hand checking and the "soft" play of today's NBA are the same things Kobe has dealt with for almost a decade. The guy has played most of his career in this supposedly "soft" era and, one could argue, has benefited from it as much as any player over the last decade.

I'd like to see the argument.

hand-checking hurt Kobe on the defensive end, especially as he aged and wasn't able to move his feet as fast as the leagues young guns. any benefit on the offensive end matched by a drawback defensively. same reason why we haven't seen a permitter player win DPOY since hand checking was official curtailed and strongly defined.

Goose17
01-21-2014, 04:04 PM
I didn't particularly agree with many of these takes. For one, the lack of hand checking and the "soft" play of today's NBA are the same things Kobe has dealt with for almost a decade. The guy has played most of his career in this supposedly "soft" era and, one could argue, has benefited from it as much as any player over the last decade.

Secondly, I've always been a proponent that players should have to go to college for at least two seasons. It has nothing to do with talent as much as it does maturity. Not only will it help develop a young player's game, but college is where so many boys become men. I think you'd have a lot less immaturity from young players in the league if most guys stayed in college a little longer.

However, I really enjoyed how he debunked the whole "passing the torch" crap. Fans and media like everything in sports to be wrapped up in neat packages with stars passing on their stardom to the next set of NBA players. But it's never like that. Different guys play the game differently, with different intentions, motivations and goals.

Agree with literally everything in this post^

Matter.
01-21-2014, 04:04 PM
What about the trash talking ? Has it dwindled down ?.

Goose17
01-21-2014, 04:05 PM
Oh and it's good that the hand checking rules were changed imo.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 04:05 PM
No, I addressed the topic bro. Try again. Your no better than me on this forum.

What? No you didn't. Not at all. All you did was come in here, bolden one sentence I wrote and then claimed everyone was bashing Kobe and that nothing he said was controversial. You never once mentioned a single point Kobe made or addressed a single point made by another poster. You just come into threads, ***** about the fact that people may have something negative to say about Kobe or disagree with something Kobe says, throw out a blanket generalization and then pretend like you've just said something relevant.

No one's impressed by you or gives two ***** about how much you love Kobe Bryant or everything he has to say. Instead of just agreeing with the guy and complaining about how we disagree with him, how about making counter points to things people are saying? That's generally how a discussion works.

flea
01-21-2014, 04:08 PM
I hated the Decision, too, but I hardly think the average sports fan views the NBA as the WWE. Hell, the NFL has just as much ridiculous media attention as the NBA, if not more so. The week leading up to the Super Bowl is just an unending supply of non-stories and ridiculous details, interviews or comments getting totally blown out of proportion. And if you want to talk about "star calls," I think the NFL often gives a similar benefit of the doubt to its start QBs at times.

If anything, I think the NBA and the NFL have done a superior job of staying relevant, implementing new technological advances and changing their games to meet the strengths of their sports and their athletes than MLB. Baseball is the Republican of the professional sports world, determined to keep archaic practices and place and refusing to change in spite of changes in society.

Jokes abound about touching Brady/Manning leading to 15 yard personal foul, but it is no where near the shameful amount of star calls that go on in both the regular season and playoffs in the NBA. Pick out the 3rd quarter of any Finals game over the last 3 years and you're guaranteed to find weird touch fouls called on Lebron - both on the drive and when he's setting the offense.

As far as sports fans' feelings on the NBA, maybe you just have different friends. I watch the NBA, but many of my sports-interested friends feel as though the NBA is nothing more than a marketing machine designed to sell shoes. The new front offices and statistically-inclined coaches are changing some of this mindset, but it's the dark underbelly of the league. It's no secret that the NBA did and does this stuff on purpose so they won't return to post-Jordan levels of the TV ratings doldrums.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 04:12 PM
I'd like to see the argument.

hand-checking hurt Kobe on the defensive end, especially as he aged and wasn't able to move his feet as fast as the leagues young guns. any benefit on the offensive end matched by a drawback defensively. same reason why we haven't seen a permitter player win DPOY since hand checking was official curtailed and strongly defined.

I was clearly referring to the offensive end of the court and the increased production of wing players over the last 8-9 years. Is there a drawback to that for wings, defensively? Sure there is. But few fans or analysts pay as much attention to a wing player's defensive prowess as they do his offensive production. If they did, someone like Bobby Jones would be considered as good a player as someone like Reggie Miller, and we would talk about Andre Iguodala in the same discussions as guys like James Harden.

If you're going to use the "defensive disadvantage" argument, then that's the same argument for all wing players and nobody had any advantage as the result of the rule.

Chronz
01-21-2014, 04:17 PM
Surprise, surprise

I love this post for so many reasons.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 04:22 PM
Jokes abound about touching Brady/Manning leading to 15 yard personal foul, but it is no where near the shameful amount of star calls that go on in both the regular season and playoffs in the NBA. Pick out the 3rd quarter of any Finals game over the last 3 years and you're guaranteed to find weird touch fouls called on Lebron - both on the drive and when he's setting the offense.
But the NFL and the NBA are two totally different sports. There is a ton of physical contact on literally every play in the NFL, and they could literally call a foul on probably every play if they wanted to. Also, I think referees generally do a good job of holding their whistles in the NBA postseason. Say what you will about Lebron or other stars getting beneficial calls, but I watched a ton of basketball last season, and I thought the refs did a great job of holding their whistles and letting both sides play last postseason.


As far as sports fans' feelings on the NBA, maybe you just have different friends. I watch the NBA, but many of my sports-interested friends feel as though the NBA is nothing more than a marketing machine designed to sell shoes.
I think that's a tad ridiculous. There's marketing in all sports. The only difference with the NBA is that its players are more recognizable because there's fewer of them and they don't wear any kind of headgear. And its superstars are more prevalent in advertising because of it.


The new front offices and statistically-inclined coaches are changing some of this mindset, but it's the dark underbelly of the league. It's no secret that the NBA did and does this stuff on purpose so they won't return to post-Jordan levels of the TV ratings doldrums.
Does what stuff on purpose? Star calls? I've said this before and I'll say it a million more times. Star players are star players because they can penetrate and get to the basket. It's the most dangerous skill you can have in the NBA today. Are they stars because they drive to the basket or do they drive to the basket because they're stars? It's probably a little of both. From the NBA's standpoint, you have to protect your players and call the game as consistently as possible. Star players get "star calls" because they know this and they're getting in the lane and drawing contact.

If you draw illegal contact, you will go the free throw line. If referees see contact, they're going to draw a foul. And referees are merely humans, so they will miss a call from time to time. "Star calls" are just NBA fans misunderstanding the basic principals of the sport and how it has changed over the years.

flea
01-21-2014, 04:29 PM
But the NFL and the NBA are two totally different sports. There is a ton of physical contact on literally every play in the NFL, and they could literally call a foul on probably every play if they wanted to. Also, I think referees generally do a good job of holding their whistles in the NBA postseason. Say what you will about Lebron or other stars getting beneficial calls, but I watched a ton of basketball last season, and I thought the refs did a great job of holding their whistles and letting both sides play last postseason.


I think that's a tad ridiculous. There's marketing in all sports. The only difference with the NBA is that its players are more recognizable because there's fewer of them and they don't wear any kind of headgear. And its superstars are more prevalent in advertising because of it.


Does what stuff on purpose? Star calls? I've said this before and I'll say it a million more times. Star players are star players because they can penetrate and get to the basket. It's the most dangerous skill you can have in the NBA today. Are they stars because they drive to the basket or do they drive to the basket because they're stars? It's probably a little of both. From the NBA's standpoint, you have to protect your players and call the game as consistently as possible. Star players get "star calls" because they know this and they're getting in the lane and drawing contact.

If you draw illegal contact, you will go the free throw line. If referees see contact, they're going to draw a foul. And referees are merely humans, so they will miss a call from time to time. "Star calls" are just NBA fans misunderstanding the basic principals of the sport and how it has changed over the years.

Wait a second. You're denying that the NBA officials give preferential foul calls to stars? Or are you saying that drawing a whistle is a "skill?" I won't deny the latter, but that skill is mostly wrapped up in how marketable you are for your team. If you're arguing the former, well we're just not going to agree on very much on this topic.

PurpleLynch
01-21-2014, 04:31 PM
I agree with Kobe.The league is getting softer,too many bad calls.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 04:45 PM
Wait a second. You're denying that the NBA officials give preferential foul calls to stars? Or are you saying that drawing a whistle is a "skill?" I won't deny the latter, but that skill is mostly wrapped up in how marketable you are for your team. If you're arguing the former, well we're just not going to agree on very much on this topic.

I'm saying that if you drive to the basket, you're going to draw more contact, draw more fouls and get to the line more. It's common sense, really. Let me break this down into simple algebra.

X= Number of times a player drives to the basket
Y= Number of fouls a player will create that a referee will call
If X, then sometimes Y.
If X increases, Y will inevitably increase.

Common sense, right? A player who drives to the basket and attempts more shots will naturally get more calls. Now lets throw a third variable into the mix.

Z= Number of unnecessary fouls a referee calls
If X increases, then Y increases, then Z increases.

Makes sense, right? A referee is going to blow more calls the more a player drives to the basket, and he's going to miss one from time to time. Sometimes those calls will result in more fouls than should necessarily be called. Again, this is just common sense. So let's put it to practice.

Player A
X= 12
Y= 6
Z= 2
FTA = 16

Player B
X=2
Y=1
Z=0
FTA = 2

Naturally, Player A got more calls because he drove to the basket more. Did he get some FTA he didn't deserve? Sure. But he showed the tenacity to get to the rim, while Player B did not. Suppose Player A was Lebron James and Player B was Jameer Nelson (random mediocre player off the top of my head). Did Lebron get those calls because he is a star player or because he drives to the basket more often? You tell me...

Ebbs
01-21-2014, 04:46 PM
lol maybe I'll go watch Pau win another Silver aha

flea
01-21-2014, 04:57 PM
Okay so you don't think "star calls" exist - you just think stars drive the ball more often and thus get to the line more. We'll just have to disagree.

holditdown
01-21-2014, 04:59 PM
Bottom line is this. Kobe played pre 2004 which is when the league started enforcing hand checking and paint violations very stringently.

Like that one guy said James Harden would end up in a hospital with his play today.

Curry would be a spot up shooter. Rose wouldn't last 2 months. Westbrook could actually play the 2 guard though and be pretty good in the harder league.

holditdown
01-21-2014, 05:00 PM
Notice how everyone defending the softer league now are fans of teams who rely on the pansification of the rule enforcement?

D-Leethal
01-21-2014, 05:20 PM
I loved hoops when there were chessmatches occuring on the floor. Great player vs great defender see who comes out on top. Fakes, counters, footwork, vs lateral quickness, speed, strength. It was a beautiful thing to see. NBA has become "he with the quickest first step wins" and the 1v1 chess has been eliminated from the individual matchups.

There is nothing I hate more than how easy it is for a first step flopper to barrel the lane and get two points easier (while getting rewarded by the refs and no physical confrontation from the defense allowed once you make your move) than someone who uses fundamental basketball skills to get a bucket.

I understand the league has changed, there is more screens, its more spread out, and everything is designed to support the dribble drive game. Its fun, its flashy, its finesse, it sells, but it sucks if you ask me.

flea
01-21-2014, 05:57 PM
I loved hoops when there were chessmatches occuring on the floor. Great player vs great defender see who comes out on top. Fakes, counters, footwork, vs lateral quickness, speed, strength. It was a beautiful thing to see. NBA has become "he with the quickest first step wins" and the 1v1 chess has been eliminated from the individual matchups.

There is nothing I hate more than how easy it is for a first step flopper to barrel the lane and get two points easier (while getting rewarded by the refs and no physical confrontation from the defense allowed once you make your move) than someone who uses fundamental basketball skills to get a bucket.

I understand the league has changed, there is more screens, its more spread out, and everything is designed to support the dribble drive game. Its fun, its flashy, its finesse, it sells, but it sucks if you ask me.

This.

t_money25
01-21-2014, 06:09 PM
What? No you didn't. Not at all. All you did was come in here, bolden one sentence I wrote and then claimed everyone was bashing Kobe and that nothing he said was controversial. You never once mentioned a single point Kobe made or addressed a single point made by another poster. You just come into threads, ***** about the fact that people may have something negative to say about Kobe or disagree with something Kobe says, throw out a blanket generalization and then pretend like you've just said something relevant.

No one's impressed by you or gives two ***** about how much you love Kobe Bryant or everything he has to say. Instead of just agreeing with the guy and complaining about how we disagree with him, how about making counter points to things people are saying? That's generally how a discussion works.


Couldn't have said it better myself.....

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 06:42 PM
Notice how everyone defending the softer league now are fans of teams who rely on the pansification of the rule enforcement?

lol.... That has nothing to do with it. Today's players are just faster and more athletic than players 20 years ago and there's more of an emphasis on transition basketball, spreading the floor and hitting 3-pointers. If anything, it's not the "pansification of the league" that has made it what it is today. It's more and more teams realizing that the two best shots you can shoot are free throws and 3-pointers. It's not a coincidence that today's players shoot and make far more 3-pointers than they did 10 years ago. It's coaches and GMs realizing that great 3-point shooting can win you championships. Look at the last few champions and most of them were elite 3-point shooting teams.

holditdown
01-21-2014, 06:47 PM
lol.... That has nothing to do with it. Today's players are just faster and more athletic than players 20 years ago and there's more of an emphasis on transition basketball, spreading the floor and hitting 3-pointers. If anything, it's not the "pansification of the league" that has made it what it is today. It's more and more teams realizing that the two best shots you can shoot are free throws and 3-pointers. It's not a coincidence that today's players shoot and make far more 3-pointers than they did 10 years ago. It's coaches and GMs realizing that great 3-point shooting can win you championships. Look at the last few champions and most of them were elite 3-point shooting teams.

Yea an open corner 3 is the second most efficient shot in basketball behind the layup/dunk. I get that. Thing is it's too easy to get an open 3 these days.

Tony_Starks
01-21-2014, 06:48 PM
Kobe's comments remind me of why guys like him, Iverson, and prime McGrady are so disrespected these days. They were out there getting buckets before they had all these no touching, no impeding progress, freedom of movement, protecting the shooter......rules in place. Back then you had to earn it and have actual skills like changing direction, pull ups, mid range....etc.

Now days its pretty much you can barge your way to hole and force the refs to blow the whistle...

Bruno
01-21-2014, 07:10 PM
I was clearly referring to the offensive end of the court and the increased production of wing players over the last 8-9 years. Is there a drawback to that for wings, defensively? Sure there is. But few fans or analysts pay as much attention to a wing player's defensive prowess as they do his offensive production. If they did, someone like Bobby Jones would be considered as good a player as someone like Reggie Miller, and we would talk about Andre Iguodala in the same discussions as guys like James Harden.
you're not going to present the argument?


If you're going to use the "defensive disadvantage" argument, then that's the same argument for all wing players and nobody had any advantage as the result of the rule.
its not an argument, it's a fact. defenders are at a disadvantage.

there's absolutely an advantage when you compare players across different generations; wings from the past appear to be the more intuitive, more dominant defenders to the blind eye. Michael Cooper and MJ never win DPOY in this era. the commissioner has created a league where the only way to truly be a dominant DPOY caliber player on the defensive end of the ball is to be a defensive anchor; it excludes anyone 6'7 or under from being able dominate a game on the defensive end of the ball.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 09:18 PM
you're not going to present the argument?

its not an argument, it's a fact. defenders are at a disadvantage.

there's absolutely an advantage when you compare players across different generations; wings from the past appear to be the more intuitive, more dominant defenders to the blind eye. Michael Cooper and MJ never win DPOY in this era. the commissioner has created a league where the only way to truly be a dominant DPOY caliber player on the defensive end of the ball is to be a defensive anchor; it excludes anyone 6'7 or under from being able dominate a game on the defensive end of the ball.

You're putting too much weight on DPOY and not nearly enough weight on a player's offensive production. You think anyone gave a **** about Jordan winning DPOY? He could have been a mediocre defender, and we'd still call him the GOAT, because he was a freakishly efficient, cold-blooded scoring machine.

Also, I disagree that a wing player can't be dominant defensively. Lebron has been as good a defensive player as anyone the last few years (excluding portions of this year).

flea
01-21-2014, 09:23 PM
Actually, the reason Michael is commonly thought to be the GOAT is because his defense lived up to its reputation. With even average defense he wouldn't have a prayer against accomplished big men like KAJ, Hakeem, and Shaq. Not sure what you're talking about.

Hawkeye15
01-21-2014, 09:26 PM
he is right in the league is softer, but the game has basically become more specialized. Sports evolve.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 09:29 PM
Actually, the reason Michael is commonly thought to be the GOAT is because his defense lived up to its reputation. With even average defense he wouldn't have a prayer against accomplished big men like KAJ, Hakeem, and Shaq. Not sure what you're talking about.

That's not true at all. Michael was a very good defender, but certainly not one of the greatest all-time perimeter defenders. Hell, he was the third best defender on the Bulls at any given time! The reason he's the greatest player in NBA history is because he was an unstoppable offensive juggernaut both in the regular season and postseason.

Think about this for a second... the man is first in league history in points per game, WS/48 and PER in the regular season AND postseason. Throw that in with all of his legendary postseason moments and the six rings in six championship tries, and that's why the guy is considered the GOAT. Defense doesn't really hurt his case, but it also doesn't matter much, either.

flea
01-21-2014, 09:36 PM
3rd best defender on the Bulls? Pippen was great, but I'm not sure he was a better on-ball defender than Jordan, at least for the first part of his career.. It was the man to man days, and it was usually Jordan on the other team's best perimeter threat. Hell, the reason Wade is probably a top 5 SG is his defense. A large part of why Jordan got those rings was because of his defense.

And please get out with that PER ****.

mightybosstone
01-21-2014, 09:46 PM
3rd best defender on the Bulls? Pippen was great, but I'm not sure he was a better on-ball defender than Jordan, at least for the first part of his career.. It was the man to man days, and it was usually Jordan on the other team's best perimeter threat. Hell, the reason Wade is probably a top 5 SG is his defense. A large part of why Jordan got those rings was because of his defense.
In terms of defense, I'd take Grant and Pippen over Jordan on those early 90s Bulls teams and Pippen and Rodman over Jordan on the late 90s Bulls teams.


And please get out with that PER ****.
Why exactly? Just because you've refused to acknowledge the relevance of advanced statistics, the rest of the world is supposed to?

Hawkeye15
01-21-2014, 09:47 PM
3rd best defender on the Bulls? Pippen was great, but I'm not sure he was a better on-ball defender than Jordan, at least for the first part of his career.. It was the man to man days, and it was usually Jordan on the other team's best perimeter threat. Hell, the reason Wade is probably a top 5 SG is his defense. A large part of why Jordan got those rings was because of his defense.

And please get out with that PER ****.

Rodman was better in his years too. The Bulls defense was full of defenders in the chip era. Cartwright was excellent as well, as was Horace.

flea
01-21-2014, 10:18 PM
I've got no problem with advanced statistics, just PER.

Pierre The Poet
01-21-2014, 11:30 PM
Kobe is right but he acting like he hasnt benefited greatly by the way the game is played now

What's he gonna do? Go up to the refs and tell them to stop calling fouls on him?

hidalgo
01-22-2014, 12:04 AM
i find this incredible he'd admit this, because this is his era. he didn't play in the hand checking, tough nba he's talking about(maybe his first few years). he basically all but admitted the rules now made it far more easy to score for him, vs what MJ dealt with. probably the most humble thing i've heard him say. certainly his 81 point game & 62 in 3 Q were a product of this softer nba & it's rules. he couldn't have pulled that off in the 90s or 80s, they'd have been 50-56 point games most likely. woah, still stunned he said this about his own era, but he's never been more right

hidalgo
01-22-2014, 12:13 AM
Kobe is right but he acting like he hasnt benefited greatly by the way the game is played now
i think he benefited from the 01 & 04 rule changes the most, by far. i'm sure he knows that

Kobe, Iverson, Tmac, hell even Stackhouse's numbers skyrockted once the 2000-01 rule changes were in effect, & it got even easier after the04 rule changes

TheMightyHumph
01-22-2014, 12:36 AM
http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=10325177&city=chicago

Kobe on how the rules have changed the game:

"It's more of a finesse game," Bryant said before the Lakers played the Chicago Bulls on Monday. "It's more small ball, which, personally, I don't really care much for. I like kind of smash-mouth, old-school basketball because that's what I grew up watching. I also think it's much, much less physical. Some of the flagrant fouls that I see called nowadays, it makes me nauseous. You can't touch a guy without it being a flagrant foul."

Kobe on hand-checking:

"I like the contact," Bryant said. "As a defensive player, if you enjoy playing defense, that's what you want. You want to be able to put your hands on a guy. You want to be able to hand check a little bit. The truth is, it makes the game [where] players have to be more skillful. Nowadays, literally anybody can get out there and get to the basket and you can't touch anybody. Back then, if guys put their hands on you, you had to have the skill to be able to go both ways, change direction, post up, you had to have a mid-range game because you didn't want to go all the way to the basket because you would get knocked *** over tea kettle. So I think playing the game back then required much more skill."

On One and Done:

"We probably see players that came out of high school were much more successful on average than players that went to college for a year," Bryant said. "It seems like the system really isn't teaching players anything when they go to college. You go to college, you play, you're showcased and you come to the pros. That's always been the big argument: As a player, you have to go to college, you have to develop your skills and so forth and so on and then come to the league. So, we kind of got sold on that, sold on that dream a little bit and, fortunately, I didn't really listen too much to it. Neither did KG [Kevin Garnett], neither did LeBron [James] and that worked out pretty well for our careers."

On passing the torch:

"I've never looked at it as the torch is being passed," Bryant said. "Even when the Magic [Johnson], Michael [Jordan] or [Larry] Bird, that kind of transition from Dr. J [Julius Erving], as a kid growing up I always looked at it as athletes represent different things. It's like what Magic represents to the game, what Bird represents to the game is different than what Michael represents to the game. It's not the same torch. They're picking up their own thing and they're carrying their own generation their own way.

"So, I don't look at it as a passing of the torch. I look at it as different athletes doing different things. What LeBron does is different than what KD [Kevin Durant] does. What they both do is different than what I do and so forth and so on."


On his chances of playing for the USA, with a parting shot to Pau:

"Nope," Bryant said. "I'll go and spectate. Maybe I'll go watch Pau [Gasol] win another silver."

Kobe is certainly entitled to his opinions, but has he suddenly become an NBA guru?

Who GAFF what Kobe's opinions are, unless every player in the NBA also expresses their opinions of the NBA? Then we can shop and compare.

beliges
01-22-2014, 01:23 AM
3rd best defender on the Bulls? Pippen was great, but I'm not sure he was a better on-ball defender than Jordan, at least for the first part of his career.. It was the man to man days, and it was usually Jordan on the other team's best perimeter threat. Hell, the reason Wade is probably a top 5 SG is his defense. A large part of why Jordan got those rings was because of his defense.

And please get out with that PER ****.

Id call pippen the greatest perimeter defender to ever play. Not sure you're going to find too many objective fans disagree with that.

hidalgo
01-22-2014, 01:31 AM
i'd say Pippen & Jordan are a tie defensively. best 2 perimeter defenders ever. throw Gary Payton in there too, for sure.

NYKalltheway
01-22-2014, 01:44 AM
I didn't particularly agree with many of these takes. For one, the lack of hand checking and the "soft" play of today's NBA are the same things Kobe has dealt with for almost a decade. The guy has played most of his career in this supposedly "soft" era and, one could argue, has benefited from it as much as any player over the last decade.

Secondly, I've always been a proponent that players should have to go to college for at least two seasons. It has nothing to do with talent as much as it does maturity. Not only will it help develop a young player's game, but college is where so many boys become men. I think you'd have a lot less immaturity from young players in the league if most guys stayed in college a little longer.

However, I really enjoyed how he debunked the whole "passing the torch" crap. Fans and media like everything in sports to be wrapped up in neat packages with stars passing on their stardom to the next set of NBA players. But it's never like that. Different guys play the game differently, with different intentions, motivations and goals.

I don't get why you disagree. Kobe is one of the living proofs that this era is too soft. Amazing talent, one of the best of our generation if not the best, but can't be properly compared to older ones for the reasons he even stated. Everyone who watches basketball long enough knows that. Kobe is not a fool to live in a fairy tale.

As for these rules, while they were in effect since the 1999-2000 or 20001-02 season, it wasn't until 2005-6 that they became quite ridiculous and especially after 2009-10 that they made the game unwatchable. Watching Wade, Lebron, Durant, Kobe and a bunch of other "superstars" shoot free throws is not something that I like watching. Triple teams and *** kicking in the paint on the other hand :drool:

Bruno
01-22-2014, 01:47 AM
You're putting too much weight on DPOY and not nearly enough weight on a player's offensive production.
No I'm not. defense is 50% of the game mbt, it matters. also, any advantages given to offensive players by the lack of a hand-checking rule can be neutralized by the legality of zones. they have worked spectacularly well in marginalizing even the leagues most elite talent since becoming legal. during big moments as well.


You think anyone gave a **** about Jordan winning DPOY? He could have been a mediocre defender, and we'd still call him the GOAT, because he was a freakishly efficient, cold-blooded scoring machine.
absolutely!

it absolutely added to his lore. If MJ wasn't a DPOY caliber player then those Chicago teams wouldn't have been so good for so long and they wouldn't have won as many championships. if he didn't win as many rings, he wouldn't be the indisputable GOAT. obviously the hype, commercials and movies are about his offense, but the longevity of the Bulls dynasty is rooted defense and in his defense which Pippen inherited.


Also, I disagree that a wing player can't be dominant defensively. Lebron has been as good a defensive player as anyone the last few years (excluding portions of this year).
LBJ anchored that defense. you're trying to box him in as simply a wing defender here. he bangs on the box with the big boys as good as anyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3O94yv4vc

players who can do this to one of the leagues best seven footers aren't simply "wing defenders". they are bigs who can anchor the post and LBJ certainly fits in that description because he's a special player.

i think you should re read your post... you're too smart to be 100% wrong ;)

NYKalltheway
01-22-2014, 01:49 AM
That's not true at all. Michael was a very good defender, but certainly not one of the greatest all-time perimeter defenders. Hell, he was the third best defender on the Bulls at any given time! The reason he's the greatest player in NBA history is because he was an unstoppable offensive juggernaut both in the regular season and postseason.

He was a better perimeter defender than Pippen, slightly, but still better. Pippen was overall the better defender because low post defense and guarding SFs and PFs was something Jordan could not do.

Surely, MJ was favored in many situations where he'd actually foul for a steal and there would be no call, but it's not like he wasn't one of the greatest defensive SGs of all time.
Perhaps only Joe Dumars was better than him defensively and before him only a few names can stand out. Such as Moncrief, Jerry West, Walt Frazier and only a few others.