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shauneazy
01-17-2014, 10:24 AM
I know it's been going on for a few years, but how does a player like Durant drop 36 points on a 8-21 shooting, with 18-20 at the free throw line?

Although I love Durant, but how did this happen with all these ticky-tack fouls and just shooting free throws?

On the season, free throw attempt leaders:

Durant - 399
Howard - 380
Blake Griffin - 316
Cousins - 314
Harden - 313

I find this awfully annoying and sad that this is what the NBA has come down to.. who can win by shooting free throws.

donovanmcnabb
01-17-2014, 10:32 AM
Good players getting to the line is not a new trend.

http://www.nba.com/history/records/regular_freethrows.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career.html

PraiseJesus
01-17-2014, 10:33 AM
The NBA enjoyed a surge in popularity in the early 2000's.

Since then things have changed so much.... I don't think I know exactly why.

But as a result the NBA's popularity is sinking like a stone with sports like the NHL overtaking it.

The bottomline is that small market owners are probably most to blame. The rules they imposed on the new collective bargaining agreement make it impossible for teams to get any better except through the draft.

Thats why we have the god awful product that is on the floor today

bholly
01-17-2014, 10:46 AM
FT/FGA for teams since 1946-47:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&c1stat=ft_rate&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ft_rate
Note that there are only two teams from this millennium in the top 100.


FTA per 36minutes for players since 1946/47:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=fta_per_mp
Notice that a small minority of the top guys are current players.


This is in your head, OP. Free throw rates aren't up, for teams or individuals. Durant is seriously great at drawing fouls and getting to the line, and Dwight is good at it too, with the addition of dozens of intentional fouls at the end of games. That's all that's happening here.

D-Leethal
01-17-2014, 10:52 AM
Its not the quantity of the fouls that are different, its the quality of the fouls. Fouls back in the day were real fouls. Real fouls now are flagrants and fines, players try to "back off" in those situations and get fouls called on them anyway.

I don't care what any free throw rates tell you, the way players use the whistles to their advantage in today's NBA is drastically different than it used to be. Trying to get a bucket has taken a backseat to trying to get to the FT line. Fouls used to occur while making legitimate basketball plays, you didn't see guys run into someones shoulder on the drive and throw the ball at the backboard while "LeBroning" to the floor.

I would love to see a highlight of Durants 20 FTs, or better yet a game where Harden gets 20 FTs, side by side to a game where MJ got to the line a ton against the Knicks and compare fouls.

Tony_Starks
01-17-2014, 12:11 PM
KD is a nightmare to defend and there's a new emphasis on "protecting the shooter" i.e. not hitting him on the elbow as he shoots or sliding into/ under him as he shoots. Dwight, Boogie, and Blake are so physical they're going to routinely get there.

Only one on that list I take issue with is Harden. He flagrantly, blatantly acts to fool the the ref....

DreamShaker
01-17-2014, 12:16 PM
I was at that game last night. A lot of ticky tack fouls called. Just how it is. That has always been how it is for superstars, though. MJ had it like that.

NYtilIdie
01-17-2014, 12:27 PM
The NBA enjoyed a surge in popularity in the early 2000's.

Since then things have changed so much.... I don't think I know exactly why.

But as a result the NBA's popularity is sinking like a stone with sports like the NHL overtaking it.

The bottomline is that small market owners are probably most to blame. The rules they imposed on the new collective bargaining agreement make it impossible for teams to get any better except through the draft.

Thats why we have the god awful product that is on the floor today

Please, don't make me laugh right now.

D-Leethal
01-17-2014, 12:33 PM
I was at that game last night. A lot of ticky tack fouls called. Just how it is. That has always been how it is for superstars, though. MJ had it like that.

On MSG they show old school Knicks vs Bulls games all the time, MJ used to get his mother****ing *** whooped. The pampered divas of today would call for wheelchairs and beg the refs for flagrant 2s. MJ got up, took his FTs, and came back for more. He took the punishment with a smile. It was beautiful to watch.

ManRam
01-17-2014, 12:35 PM
Yeah, like bholly said, FT rates league-wide aren't up. I remember making a long post about that last year.

Durant is a ton of fun to watch, but I have always been irked by his foul drawing moreso than anyone else. He's just so long and lanky, so much so that even the most ticky-tack fouls are going to look more than just that with frequency. He's tremendous at drawing contact and playing to that, but it has long annoyed me. I don't blame him for it or anything, it's just not fun to watch, stagnates things and is annoying.


But, while the league has changed, free throw rates as a whole haven't much. That is a fact. We might have individuals who are better at drawing fouls, but league-wide we're not seeing higher free throw rates. We've had teams at historically low levels lately, and consistently so.


Guys like Durant and Harden are drawing fouls at outrageous and annoying rates, again, big picture? League-wide? It's a non-story.

NYKalltheway
01-17-2014, 12:36 PM
Its not the quantity of the fouls that are different, its the quality of the fouls. Fouls back in the day were real fouls. Real fouls now are flagrants and fines, players try to "back off" in those situations and get fouls called on them anyway.

I don't care what any free throw rates tell you, the way players use the whistles to their advantage in today's NBA is drastically different than it used to be. Trying to get a bucket has taken a backseat to trying to get to the FT line. Fouls used to occur while making legitimate basketball plays, you didn't see guys run into someones shoulder on the drive and throw the ball at the backboard while "LeBroning" to the floor.

I would love to see a highlight of Durants 20 FTs, or better yet a game where Harden gets 20 FTs, side by side to a game where MJ got to the line a ton against the Knicks and compare fouls.

Pretty much.

D-Leethal
01-17-2014, 12:39 PM
I have posted this before - but it is a prime example of what people mean when they say the leagues done gone soft. Its not about the foul shot totals - leave that **** at the door. Its the fouls that are getting whistled, not the quantity of them - the quality of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bM-Y4UoiAY

40 stitches and not even deemed a flagrant. Malone might get suspended for the entire year for that in todays NBA.

When players used to drive the lane and get to the line, the opposing team was allowed to make them regret it. They were awarded FTs yes, but teams were allowed to dissuade them from trying to do it again. Today they get the FTs and can keep coming back for more without any fear of repercussions. Its soft. NBA is BY FAR the softest league out there - in all other sports venting your frustrations with a little scuffle is accepted and part of the game. NBA you get suspended for freaking pushing! You know why? Its racially motivated and it sucks but its true.

ManRam
01-17-2014, 12:45 PM
On MSG they show old school Knicks vs Bulls games all the time, MJ used to get his mother****ing *** whooped. The pampered divas of today would call for wheelchairs and beg the refs for flagrant 2s. MJ got up, took his FTs, and came back for more. He took the punishment with a smile. It was beautiful to watch.

MJ's tough because while a lot of that certainly is true, I feel like the whole "star-treatment" thing started to come to a rise with him. I'm too young to really know that for sure, but that's the impression of the narrative I've gathered. You have guys like PJ and other Bulls-centric people complaining that he got fouled on literally every single play, and then a strong counter presence. He definitely got hit harder with more regularity than most people, and he didn't start getting calls in his career until he really became that relentless slasher (like KD and Harden). There was more leeway for harder fouls, for sure, but again, the game has changed. Defenses have adapted. Comparing these eras is apples to oranges.

But again, we're not witnessing leagues where free throw rates are any higher than before. It seems annoying, but I think outside Durant and Harden we're not seeing really any outliers compared to the league's entire history. And those two are among the absolute best we've ever seen at drawing contact and using that as an advantage.

HYFR
01-17-2014, 12:54 PM
The NBA enjoyed a surge in popularity in the early 2000's.

Since then things have changed so much.... I don't think I know exactly why.

But as a result the NBA's popularity is sinking like a stone with sports like the NHL overtaking it.

The bottomline is that small market owners are probably most to blame. The rules they imposed on the new collective bargaining agreement make it impossible for teams to get any better except through the draft.

Thats why we have the god awful product that is on the floor today

I would love to see some source backing up your claim that the nhl is overtaking the nba in popularity.

kdspurman
01-17-2014, 01:04 PM
I have posted this before - but it is a prime example of what people mean when they say the leagues done gone soft. Its not about the foul shot totals - leave that **** at the door. Its the fouls that are getting whistled, not the quantity of them - the quality of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bM-Y4UoiAY

40 stitches and not even deemed a flagrant. Malone might get suspended for the entire year for that in todays NBA.

When players used to drive the lane and get to the line, the opposing team was allowed to make them regret it. They were awarded FTs yes, but teams were allowed to dissuade them from trying to do it again. Today they get the FTs and can keep coming back for more without any fear of repercussions. Its soft. NBA is BY FAR the softest league out there - in all other sports venting your frustrations with a little scuffle is accepted and part of the game. NBA you get suspended for freaking pushing! You know why? Its racially motivated and it sucks but its true.

Yea that's crazy... Sort of reminds me of the Dr. J/Larry Bird fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4oF34p3-rQ

I mean that was pretty crazy and here were the punishments-



In the aftermath, the NBA Office handed out a grand total of $30,500 worth of fines. The two prime combatants, Bird and Erving were each assessed a pink slip of $7,500 each. M. L. Carr and Moses Malone each drew a $3,000 fine, Charles Barkley $1,000 for fighting and Bill Cunningham a $2,500 setback for post game comments. 12 other players (six from each team) each drew a fine of $500 for leaving their respective bench during the melee.


Times have just changed though man. For the most part it seems the players have adjusted to it.The league tries to protect the players (for obvious reasons) more than before and maybe it's for the best in terms of guys longevity I don't know. It is a little annoying when they make such a big deal of out a "clean" hard foul, but it is what it is. I do miss how it was back in terms of allowing players to have emotion in the heat of the moment and refs not being so whistle happy.

albertajaysfan
01-17-2014, 01:11 PM
I do miss the rough and tumble days of the NBA to a certain degree. Ticky tack fouls are so irritating. I feel like we have swung too far the other way now. Hopefully in upcoming years with all the old vets speaking out about it, ala Gary Payton the other day, we will find a happy medium.

ghettosean
01-17-2014, 01:12 PM
Its not the quantity of the fouls that are different, its the quality of the fouls. Fouls back in the day were real fouls. Real fouls now are flagrants and fines, players try to "back off" in those situations and get fouls called on them anyway.

I don't care what any free throw rates tell you, the way players use the whistles to their advantage in today's NBA is drastically different than it used to be. Trying to get a bucket has taken a backseat to trying to get to the FT line. Fouls used to occur while making legitimate basketball plays, you didn't see guys run into someones shoulder on the drive and throw the ball at the backboard while "LeBroning" to the floor.

I would love to see a highlight of Durants 20 FTs, or better yet a game where Harden gets 20 FTs, side by side to a game where MJ got to the line a ton against the Knicks and compare fouls.

:worthy:

One of the best posters on PSD here saying it how it is!!!

It's sad when I watch the game today it's not as entertaining or competitive to see guys fall on there *** or crying to the ref after every play. Playing hard and earning baskets isn't part of the game anymore it's all about acting, crying and complaining :(

DTownSkitzo
01-17-2014, 01:23 PM
I was at that game last night. A lot of ticky tack fouls called. Just how it is. That has always been how it is for superstars, though. MJ had it like that.

Yeah there were some ticky tack fouls last night. I just hope you do not use that as an excuse as to why the Rockets lost last night (not saying you are at all). Dropping 73 points in the 1st half only to drop 19 in the whole second half is so bizzare.

Harden usually gets to the line a lot but last night he only attempted 3 FTs.

MrfadeawayJB
01-17-2014, 01:37 PM
Well the grizz lost about a month ago to the rockets on national tv partly because of James Hardens head flailing which led to 25 ftas


and people say he's not a superstar, he gets superstar calls

Master Mind
01-17-2014, 01:42 PM
I know it's been going on for a few years, but how does a player like Durant drop 36 points on a 8-21 shooting, with 18-20 at the free throw line?

Although I love Durant, but how did this happen with all these ticky-tack fouls and just shooting free throws?

On the season, free throw attempt leaders:

Durant - 399
Howard - 380
Blake Griffin - 316
Cousins - 314
Harden - 313

I find this awfully annoying and sad that this is what the NBA has come down to.. who can win by shooting free throws.

Crazy! I was saying the same thing last night. It's absurd

Chronz
01-17-2014, 01:51 PM
Actually the rule changes to curtail hand checking has always helped the game. If the rules never changed, we would see more games end 70-77 with free throw rates staying pretty much in line thanks to more half court play.

Magic joked that you couldn't even touch/breathe on Michael. Just as people used to say that about Jerry West. So no matter the era/rules, you will have guys who people feel get preferential treatment.

D-Leethal
01-17-2014, 02:12 PM
Actually the rule changes to curtail hand checking has always helped the game. If the rules never changed, we would see more games end 70-77 with free throw rates staying pretty much in line thanks to more half court play.

Magic joked that you couldn't even touch/breathe on Michael. Just as people used to say that about Jerry West. So no matter the era/rules, you will have guys who people feel get preferential treatment.

My beef isn't necessarily the star calls - its the fact that defenses aren't allowed to make the stars think twice about entering the paint. MJ would get his star calls, but they would be mixed in with a complete *** beating as well. MJ earned them in that regard. KD gets 12 FTs and doesn't feel any of them the next day.

Its a cycle that does nothing but feed off itself and benefit the offense. Defense has no way to curb their willingness to drive the lane which was once a feared thing to do. You entered the lane you did so knowing damn well you are likely gonna end up on your ***. Stars know they are gonna get to the line at any remote semblance of contact, they know they are not gonna get knocked to the ground (despite the majority of them falling on purpose anyway), and they know they can do it all damn game long without any repercussions. MJ did it knowing he was gonna take punishment.

ManRam
01-17-2014, 02:37 PM
I'll gladly break down the KD FT attempts from last night when I get home. I'll make GIFs for all of them. I didn't watch the game, I'm deathly ill and thus have nothing better to do.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-17-2014, 03:44 PM
Has happened throughout league history.

Everyone's favourite, good old MJ, averaged more FTA in a few seasons than what Durant is averaging this season.

nickdymez
01-17-2014, 03:47 PM
Its not the quantity of the fouls that are different, its the quality of the fouls. Fouls back in the day were real fouls. Real fouls now are flagrants and fines, players try to "back off" in those situations and get fouls called on them anyway.

I don't care what any free throw rates tell you, the way players use the whistles to their advantage in today's NBA is drastically different than it used to be. Trying to get a bucket has taken a backseat to trying to get to the FT line. Fouls used to occur while making legitimate basketball plays, you didn't see guys run into someones shoulder on the drive and throw the ball at the backboard while "LeBroning" to the floor.

I would love to see a highlight of Durants 20 FTs, or better yet a game where Harden gets 20 FTs, side by side to a game where MJ got to the line a ton against the Knicks and compare fouls.

100% correct

PraiseJesus
01-17-2014, 03:59 PM
Please, don't make me laugh right now.


I would love to see some source backing up your claim that the nhl is overtaking the nba in popularity.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/nhl-selling-more-arenas-nba-225020461--nhl.html


It’s been over 15 years in the making, but it can be argued that the NHL is hot and the NBA is not.

Just look at the product on the floor. The NBA is a bunch of 20-23 year old kids learning on the fly with teams TANKING.

The NBA is at the lowest point ive ever seen. It is darn near unwatchable

JasonJohnHorn
01-17-2014, 04:19 PM
Durant is actually averaging LESS free-throws per game than Jordan did in his prime.


It's just the treatment stars get combined with their ability to draw fouls.


Being able to draw a foul is a special skill. Let's not down play that. KD and Harden know how to get to the line.

ThuglifeJ
01-17-2014, 04:24 PM
The NBA enjoyed a surge in popularity in the early 2000's.

Since then things have changed so much.... I don't think I know exactly why.

But as a result the NBA's popularity is sinking like a stone with sports like the NHL overtaking it.

The bottomline is that small market owners are probably most to blame. The rules they imposed on the new collective bargaining agreement make it impossible for teams to get any better except through the draft.

Thats why we have the god awful product that is on the floor today

This.

Miss me some early 2000s

ThuglifeJ
01-17-2014, 04:34 PM
Its because the leaders are and have been, the stars of the league themselves (if they even deserve that title). Problem is, our leaders now days suck.

If you watched the TNT table yesterday postgame Shaq kept saying 'id get it done, you have to get it done some way and at least TRY to dominate'. Showing clips of Howard being a puss..in a 7 ft athletic frame

That's the thing these kids are all so soft and arent ambitious. They all seem like spoiled *** kids. And NO CHARISMA. That's what happens when you grow up on video games and social media vs real life. Not to mention the AAU system corrupts these guys minds.

No one wants to take advantage of their god given potential. Look at Howard. There's no passion, no mental toughness, no showmanship. Leagues becoming a joke at times. Totally at rock bottom entertainment wise the past few years IMO. I mean doesn't help how stupid they all are..like lebrons twitter blabs, the rockets scoring 17 in the second half... Howard setting top of key picks every pocessison..

so much wrong so little good bottom line

HYFR
01-17-2014, 04:39 PM
(null)

Good stuff.. Didn't want to come off sounding like a dick when I said that tho.. The attendance numbers are impressive but I gotta wonder how much of those are fudged. Also I'm almost positive the nba gets better numbers on television. IMO there's no way the nhl is more popular in the US than the nba. Sry for the derail

Dade County
01-17-2014, 04:42 PM
I know it's been going on for a few years, but how does a player like Durant drop 36 points on a 8-21 shooting, with 18-20 at the free throw line?

Although I love Durant, but how did this happen with all these ticky-tack fouls and just shooting free throws?

On the season, free throw attempt leaders:

Durant - 399
Howard - 380
Blake Griffin - 316
Cousins - 314
Harden - 313

I find this awfully annoying and sad that this is what the NBA has come down to.. who can win by shooting free throws.

Ummm... Jordan stared this... So it started in his era, when he started winning rings (notice not in the Magic Lakers, C's or bad boys prime era) ... Everything falls on Mj and stern.

D-Leethal
01-17-2014, 04:46 PM
I'll gladly break down the KD FT attempts from last night when I get home. I'll make GIFs for all of them. I didn't watch the game, I'm deathly ill and thus have nothing better to do.

How do you do that? Youtube to GIF?

I am hungover as all hell, so if you do that, I'll find an MJ - Knicks game and do the same for a comparison. That would be a cool thread.

ChiTownPacerFan
01-17-2014, 05:01 PM
All I want is a rule stating: "If contact is initiated by an offensive player, a foul cannot be called on a defensive player (A sliding defender who isn't set would be deemed to be initiating contact so block/charge plays would be called the same).

No more jumping into guys with the goal of getting to the line. Guys like James Harden aren't even making basketball plays anymore, they just literally crash into guys to get to the line. I think you're going to see more and more players succeeding with that style of play. It's going to get brutal. Hopefully it gets bad enough that things change. Imagine if, in a few decades, most of the top scorers in the NBA are averaging 12-15 points a night from the line....

Chronz
01-17-2014, 05:13 PM
My beef isn't necessarily the star calls - its the fact that defenses aren't allowed to make the stars think twice about entering the paint. MJ would get his star calls, but they would be mixed in with a complete *** beating as well. MJ earned them in that regard. KD gets 12 FTs and doesn't feel any of them the next day.

Its a cycle that does nothing but feed off itself and benefit the offense. Defense has no way to curb their willingness to drive the lane which was once a feared thing to do. You entered the lane you did so knowing damn well you are likely gonna end up on your ***. Stars know they are gonna get to the line at any remote semblance of contact, they know they are not gonna get knocked to the ground (despite the majority of them falling on purpose anyway), and they know they can do it all damn game long without any repercussions. MJ did it knowing he was gonna take punishment.

I dont buy all that, I feel it was easier to drive back in the days where the "foul" was used as means of defending the paint. Now adays you can wall off the paint without having to worry about illegal violations being called. Especially when you consider the players doing the "banging" were physically inferior as well. I cant envision a twig like English getting to the cup as frequently as he used to in the free flowing 80's. Aside from Rileys Knicks/Heat and the Bad Boys, how many thuggish type teams were there? Overall, as defender, I dont think a brute like Oakley is a more of a presence than a nimble Horace Grant.

So yeah it was more physical but that physicality was done by inferior athletes under rules where they had to foul. Its a preference thing, brute force vs skillful artistry IMO.

tredigs
01-17-2014, 05:13 PM
I'm guessing there's not a single era where fans haven't complained about superstar calls. Some of you guys think all of MJ's fouls were hard? Is that a joke? I have to guess you weren't alive during his 6 championship runs if that is the case, because the complaints on touch fouls for him were never ending from opposing fans/players.

Malone probably heard the same **** when he averaged 12 FTA/G in the late 80's, and Moses Malone before him. Or when lil' 6'1" Tiny Archibald averaged 11 a game in '72; Jerry West and his 10-13 a night before that.

Everyone complained about it for Kobe and Lebron 6 years ago, and now it's focused on KD and Harden. In 5 years it will be Wiggins and Parker.

Nothing to see here. 90% of the foul calls are correct anyway. Refs miss a handful every game, and obviously that is going to be a disproportionate amount for the ones who have the ball and seek contact the most.

As an aside, what they need to do is make it a technical on the offense to pump fake then jump sideways and/or forward into the defense to attempt contact. Same for the defense if a player is attempting to sprint to a spot on the floor with the only intention of drawing a collision and not attempting actual defense. That would get rid of 10-12 unnecessary whistles a game. *Not to say you can't take a charge if the player is barrelling towards you, but to make it illegal to sprint sideways in front of the players path and then quickly plant yourself in the charge stance.

PraiseJesus
01-17-2014, 05:24 PM
Its because the leaders are and have been, the stars of the league themselves (if they even deserve that title). Problem is, our leaders now days suck.

If you watched the TNT table yesterday postgame Shaq kept saying 'id get it done, you have to get it done some way and at least TRY to dominate'. Showing clips of Howard being a puss..in a 7 ft athletic frame

That's the thing these kids are all so soft and arent ambitious. They all seem like spoiled *** kids. And NO CHARISMA. That's what happens when you grow up on video games and social media vs real life. Not to mention the AAU system corrupts these guys minds.

No one wants to take advantage of their god given potential. Look at Howard. There's no passion, no mental toughness, no showmanship. Leagues becoming a joke at times. Totally at rock bottom entertainment wise the past few years IMO. I mean doesn't help how stupid they all are..like lebrons twitter blabs, the rockets scoring 17 in the second half... Howard setting top of key picks every pocessison..

so much wrong so little good bottom line

Speak the truth!

PraiseJesus
01-17-2014, 05:26 PM
Good stuff.. Didn't want to come off sounding like a dick when I said that tho.. The attendance numbers are impressive but I gotta wonder how much of those are fudged. Also I'm almost positive the nba gets better numbers on television. IMO there's no way the nhl is more popular in the US than the nba. Sry for the derail

The numbers would say otherwise

PraiseJesus
01-17-2014, 05:27 PM
I'm guessing there's not a single era where fans haven't complained about superstar calls. Some of you guys think all of MJ's fouls were hard? Is that a joke? I have to guess you weren't alive during his 6 championship runs if that is the case, because the complaints on touch fouls for him were never ending from opposing fans/players.

Malone probably heard the same **** when he averaged 12 FTA/G in the late 80's, and Moses Malone before him. Or when lil' 6'1" Tiny Archibald averaged 11 a game in '72; Jerry West and his 10-13 a night before that.

Everyone complained about it for Kobe and Lebron 6 years ago, and now it's focused on KD and Harden. In 5 years it will be Wiggins and Parker.

Nothing to see here. 90% of the foul calls are correct anyway. Refs miss a handful every game, and obviously that is going to be a disproportionate amount for the ones who have the ball and seek contact the most.

As an aside, what they need to do is make it a technical on the offense to pump fake then jump sideways and/or forward into the defense to attempt contact. Same for the defense if a player is attempting to sprint to a spot on the floor with the only intention of drawing a collision and not attempting actual defense. That would get rid of 10-12 unnecessary whistles a game. *Not to say you can't take a charge if the player is barrelling towards you, but to make it illegal to sprint sideways in front of the players path and then quickly plant yourself in the charge stance.

The fouls today arent even fouls though...

ManRam
01-17-2014, 05:30 PM
How do you do that? Youtube to GIF?

I am hungover as all hell, so if you do that, I'll find an MJ - Knicks game and do the same for a comparison. That would be a cool thread.

I have league pass. I have a free program that screen captures what's on my computer into a video file. That video file can be used on photoshop to make a GIF. It's pretty simple. Not sure it's the easiest way.


I'm just curious about it. Because I did see the box score last night and my jaw dropped. I do know that his FT-drawing antics can be frustrating...but I also realize how amazing he is at getting them. You can't discern from a box score the legitimacy of all those FTAs.

tredigs
01-17-2014, 05:38 PM
The fouls today arent even fouls though...

Yes, they are. The only difference today is that a hard foul is now a flagrant foul.

The exception that I would agree with you on is that there seems to be more selling of body-contact fouls where a player will drive and bounce off sideways (unnecessarily) and get the call 70% of the time. Tough spot for the official, but I'd rather they lean on the side of the defense rather than offense.

Basically, the flop or half flop. Not something you'll see much of in the early 80's. And the worst part of modern hoops. It's better than 3 years ago at least.

D-Leethal
01-17-2014, 05:56 PM
I dont buy all that, I feel it was easier to drive back in the days where the "foul" was used as means of defending the paint. Now adays you can wall off the paint without having to worry about illegal violations being called. Especially when you consider the players doing the "banging" were physically inferior as well. I cant envision a twig like English getting to the cup as frequently as he used to in the free flowing 80's. Aside from Rileys Knicks/Heat and the Bad Boys, how many thuggish type teams were there? Overall, as defender, I dont think a brute like Oakley is a more of a presence than a nimble Horace Grant.

So yeah it was more physical but that physicality was done by inferior athletes under rules where they had to foul. Its a preference thing, brute force vs skillful artistry IMO.

So you think guys would be persuaded to drive the rim LESS without hand checking and the inability to foul HARD without being ejected? I personally don't think Harden is driving anywhere near as much if he's getting knocked flat on his *** and elbowed across the face a couple times. But if all he has to fear is a shoulder bump? Why not.

Is Durant not a twig?

Thuggish teams maybe few, but every team had a designated enforcer, and there were some players on teams that had no other role than to use up fouls and use them hard. Enforcers are obsolete nowadays because every enforcer type foul is deemed a flagrant.

Also, as far as inferior athletes go, the guys getting hit were also inferior athletes if you wanna go that route, so its somewhat cancelled out in the regard.

D-Leethal
01-17-2014, 06:01 PM
Yes, they are. The only difference today is that a hard foul is now a flagrant foul

And a flagrant foul gets you fined and puts your team in an awful position. So teams don't foul hard. When you can't foul hard, you have little girls like Tony Parker waltzing into the lane without any fear of punishment.

I guess I just wish hard fouls were still part of the game. BBall used to be tough.

D-Leethal
01-17-2014, 06:04 PM
I know people here have reference points in the paint as a way of saying players used to drive the lane more back then to debunk the whole "NBA gone soft" theories - I would like to see what the stats are for guards in the paint compared to now. I mean, does anyone think Tony Parker is leading the league in points in the paint in a league where todays flagrant 2s were nothing but ordinary fouls? I would imagine those points in the paint stats are more a result of post up bigs than guards waltzing into the lane freely all night long. We don't have any post up bigs in the league anymore, so points in the paint has taken on a different meaning in that sense as it mostly stems from guard penetration and dump off passes.

PraiseJesus
01-17-2014, 06:05 PM
And a flagrant foul gets you fined and puts your team in an awful position. So teams don't foul hard. When you can't foul hard, you have little girls like Tony Parker waltzing into the lane without any fear of punishment.

I guess I just wish hard fouls were still part of the game. BBall used to be tough.

NBA used to be a MANS game

Now its a kids game 20-25 year olds

D-Leethal
01-17-2014, 06:08 PM
NBA used to be a MANS game

Now its a kids game 20-25 year olds

Supreme athletes but straight sissy rules. Stupid mix. Let the bad dudes be bad dudes.

tredigs
01-17-2014, 06:53 PM
I don't know if you get it. A player like TP doesn't go up hard and he's slithery/deceptive as all hell. Players that paid the toll are the ones that went in fast, high and hard. The high flyers. Tony is a different beast and would crush it in the paint in every era with his skill set.

Harden is a bit of a different story. He probably would have been dealt with and altered his game a bit.

smith&wesson
01-17-2014, 07:18 PM
I do find it odd that teams make it a point to foul Howard “hack at Howard” because he is a terrible free throw shooter, yet Durant still has 19 more attempts than Howard does.

tredigs
01-17-2014, 07:26 PM
I do find it odd that teams make it a point to foul Howard “hack at Howard” because he is a terrible free throw shooter, yet Durant still has 19 more attempts than Howard does.

You do realize that most games "hack at Howard" doesn't occur, and that KD is a much, much larger part of his teams offense? If somehow you don't, there's your answer.

Miltstar
01-17-2014, 07:47 PM
dude he's 6'10" and a freak athlete ... you try guarding him without fouling... a foul is a foul always has been always will be... dont blame the nba

Chronz
01-17-2014, 07:59 PM
So you think guys would be persuaded to drive the rim LESS without hand checking and the inability to foul HARD without being ejected? I personally don't think Harden is driving anywhere near as much if he's getting knocked flat on his *** and elbowed across the face a couple times. But if all he has to fear is a shoulder bump? Why not.

Is Durant not a twig?

Thuggish teams maybe few, but every team had a designated enforcer, and there were some players on teams that had no other role than to use up fouls and use them hard. Enforcers are obsolete nowadays because every enforcer type foul is deemed a flagrant.

Also, as far as inferior athletes go, the guys getting hit were also inferior athletes if you wanna go that route, so its somewhat cancelled out in the regard.
Definitely, teams could clear out isolations with more regularity back then knowing they only had to beat a single defender most of the time, offenses/defenses were less sophisticated.

And again, I simply don't buy that there were all these elbows sent flying around, or that EVERY team had an enforcer that made his worth with that physicality. During the soft 80s, it was pretty much just the Pistons that started it and the Riley teams that used it to marginalize the talent disparity of his squads. I agree its more physical, but with emerging athletes/coaching/technology, I understand the need to balance the rules. The rules committee had done an excellent job in maintaining that balance.

And Durant is stronger/longer/bigger and more skilled than an English type, again displaying the evolution of the athlete.

Chronz
01-17-2014, 08:06 PM
I guess what I'm saying is that players adapt to their environments, the allowance of palming/carrying has opened up the game for guards for instance, its not so much that some players couldn't handle the rock as well back then its that they weren't braught up knowing some moves would be legal in the nba, fundamentals change with the rules enforced. That and players are naturally able to devote more time/film into practice

FlashBolt
01-18-2014, 02:31 AM
Lol. I'm tired of all this Jordan played in a dirty era crap. I watched his finals series against Phoenix and that defense was laughable. They fell for stepbacks, cross dribbles, behind the back dribbles.. It's as if they never seen it before. Which begs the question, is the game more advanced? Hell yes. Much more difficulty and everyone is more skillful. Just because a player can push and endanger another player, doesn't make them a better defender. The nature of basketball is to score the ball. Some of you seriously think it should be like football. Check it. Would you want to live in the 1960's as a black individual? They had it tougher back then... So don't go saying NBA should go back the way it was. Tired of people saying Jordan would score 40 a night. Drexler scored what? Near 30 at that same era? So would Drexler score 36+? Get real!

ThaDubs
01-18-2014, 02:47 AM
Is this what PSD has come to?

b@llhog24
01-18-2014, 07:24 AM
I have posted this before - but it is a prime example of what people mean when they say the leagues done gone soft. Its not about the foul shot totals - leave that **** at the door. Its the fouls that are getting whistled, not the quantity of them - the quality of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bM-Y4UoiAY

40 stitches and not even deemed a flagrant. Malone might get suspended for the entire year for that in todays NBA.

When players used to drive the lane and get to the line, the opposing team was allowed to make them regret it. They were awarded FTs yes, but teams were allowed to dissuade them from trying to do it again. Today they get the FTs and can keep coming back for more without any fear of repercussions. Its soft. NBA is BY FAR the softest league out there - in all other sports venting your frustrations with a little scuffle is accepted and part of the game. NBA you get suspended for freaking pushing! You know why? Its racially motivated and it sucks but its true.

You enjoy seeing people get elbowed for a basketball game? You sound like a sadist man.

PurpleLynch
01-18-2014, 08:01 AM
Yea that's crazy... Sort of reminds me of the Dr. J/Larry Bird fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4oF34p3-rQ

I mean that was pretty crazy and here were the punishments-



Times have just changed though man. For the most part it seems the players have adjusted to it.The league tries to protect the players (for obvious reasons) more than before and maybe it's for the best in terms of guys longevity I don't know. It is a little annoying when they make such a big deal of out a "clean" hard foul, but it is what it is. I do miss how it was back in terms of allowing players to have emotion in the heat of the moment and refs not being so whistle happy.

I like when the announcer says:-And Malone with the headlock!

Anyway,I agree with your post.

Drummond#1
01-18-2014, 09:38 AM
:worthy:

One of the best posters on PSD here saying it how it is!!!

It's sad when I watch the game today it's not as entertaining or competitive to see guys fall on there *** or crying to the ref after every play. Playing hard and earning baskets isn't part of the game anymore it's all about acting, crying and complaining :(

Worshipping another man is kind of b!tchi$h and pathetic.

Drummond#1
01-18-2014, 09:41 AM
At least the guys listed are attacking the rim and outside of harden not overly flopping or lebronning.

For the OP. I'm not a KD fan but after watching him tonight I think he would eat anyone from the dirty 80s era not named jordan or magic.

Chronz
01-18-2014, 12:13 PM
Lol. I'm tired of all this Jordan played in a dirty era crap. I watched his finals series against Phoenix and that defense was laughable. They fell for stepbacks, cross dribbles, behind the back dribbles.. It's as if they never seen it before. Which begs the question, is the game more advanced? Hell yes. Much more difficulty and everyone is more skillful. Just because a player can push and endanger another player, doesn't make them a better defender. The nature of basketball is to score the ball. Some of you seriously think it should be like football. Check it. Would you want to live in the 1960's as a black individual? They had it tougher back then... So don't go saying NBA should go back the way it was. Tired of people saying Jordan would score 40 a night. Drexler scored what? Near 30 at that same era? So would Drexler score 36+? Get real!
To be fair, the Suns represented one of the worst defensive teams from a contender during the 90's, they had fat *** Oliver Miller/Mark West combo IIRC. Chuck was their toughest player, all 6"4 of him.

ghettosean
01-18-2014, 01:14 PM
Worshipping another man is kind of b!tchi$h and pathetic.

It's just an icon I used because the post was bang on with my thoughts. I think your jelly I didn't mention you as the best poster on PSD :D

Now chill or else I'll get ghetto on yo a$S!!!!

FlashBolt
01-18-2014, 01:22 PM
To be fair, the Suns represented one of the worst defensive teams from a contender during the 90's, they had fat *** Oliver Miller/Mark West combo IIRC. Chuck was their toughest player, all 6"4 of him.

Which to my point contradicts the fact that these were tough defensive teams. Phoenix made it to the NBA finals against tough defensive teams while not being one. What makes you think any other team like Miami or OKC wouldn't succeed? This is the misconception of NBA. It was tougher but in no way did it mean better players.

holditdown
01-18-2014, 01:23 PM
I do agree that the NBA isn't quite as rough and tough as it used to be.

But you guys all need to get something through your head.

Basketball is a non contact sport.

Chronz
01-18-2014, 01:27 PM
Which to my point contradicts the fact that these were tough defensive teams. Phoenix made it to the NBA finals against tough defensive teams while not being one. What makes you think any other team like Miami or OKC wouldn't succeed? This is the misconception of NBA. It was tougher but in no way did it mean better players.

Yea I know, but I dont think thats the argument at hand. Its not about which era is best, its about a stylistic difference. Which is why I raised the question, just which era do they think was toughest to them. Seems to me the physicality of the NBA has swayed up and down over the decades, so Im asking them to be less vague and more precise.

RiceOnTheRun
01-19-2014, 05:59 AM
I have posted this before - but it is a prime example of what people mean when they say the leagues done gone soft. Its not about the foul shot totals - leave that **** at the door. Its the fouls that are getting whistled, not the quantity of them - the quality of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bM-Y4UoiAY

40 stitches and not even deemed a flagrant. Malone might get suspended for the entire year for that in todays NBA.

When players used to drive the lane and get to the line, the opposing team was allowed to make them regret it. They were awarded FTs yes, but teams were allowed to dissuade them from trying to do it again. Today they get the FTs and can keep coming back for more without any fear of repercussions. Its soft. NBA is BY FAR the softest league out there - in all other sports venting your frustrations with a little scuffle is accepted and part of the game. NBA you get suspended for freaking pushing! You know why? Its racially motivated and it sucks but its true.

Jesus Christ.

I think in those regards, the NBA has definitely become a "safer" place. We shouldn't be aiming to give players 40 stitches, because that has no place in our game. Not to say that foul calls today are great, many of them are just ridiculously pansy-ish. I feel like there's a general problem with what the NBA is aiming for when it comes to fouls.

What has recently come under fire alot, is Roy Hibbert's "verticality". It's plain ridiculous, that a big man can't even challenge a shot anymore. I feel like a lot of the reasons why big men have become less relevant in this league is because they can't challenge anyone to the rim without risking it becoming a foul. Unless they clearly and 100% grab all ball, they will be called for a foul. All a driving player has to do is leap into them and take the hit for a free trip to the FT line.

Also, the "improper conduct" fouls/fines are just plain ridiculous. Clearly these are come up with by "gentlemen" who have never played a sport a day in their lives. Making a big shot is a big ****ing deal, and maybe it's "obscene" but who the **** cares. If the NBA ran the NFL, every single player would go broke for those touchdown dances because "unsportsmanlike conduct". It's just sad because it really does take out a lot of the emotion from the game.