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View Full Version : Is DMC the best center in the NBA right now?



JasonJohnHorn
01-15-2014, 08:50 AM
Especially since Rudy Gay has been added to the team, it seems like DMC is posting 30/10 games every other night. Dwight is the better shot blocker, but DMC gets a lot of steals (he reminds me of D-Rob and Hakeem in that he gets a lot of possessions for his team on defense, rather than simply blocking a shot).

His FG% is FINALLY where it is supposed to be, and though his turnovers are around the same as DH12, his assists much higher. He gets more fouls, yes, but his steals+blocks total is higher as well.

Here are the per36 stats for each (not that they tell you everything):

DMC Per36

26.6 pts 12.9 rbs, 3.4 asts 2.1 stls, 1.2 blks .497 FG%, .724 FT% 3.8 TOV, 4.4 PF

DH12 Per36

19.2 pts 13.4 rbs 1.9 asts 0.9 stls 1.8 blks .578 FG% .537 FT% 3.3 TOV 3.7 PF



So is DMC officially the best C in the league?

imbetterthanyou
01-15-2014, 09:09 AM
After last night being a Kings fan I was pretty giddy because of the way he just destroyed the Pacers and especially in the 3rd. He was the only reason they were down by 12 at the end of the 3rd and then it just all unravelled in the 4th while he was on the bench. Then they just never brought him back. But the fact that he needs work on the defensive end doesnt make him the best yet. He is good one on one defending but still lacks team defensive concepts. He gets a lot of steals because he gambles a lot. He also hurts the team by pouting to the refs after a missed shot or what he thinks is a foul. But the fact is he gets to the line the same amount as the elite players in the NBA and offensively hes as gifted as they come. I think offensively absolutely hes the best center in the league. Overall? hes got a little ways to go.

MonroeFAN
01-15-2014, 10:16 AM
Yes.

D-Leethal
01-15-2014, 10:34 AM
I got **** on by the advanced stats marching band this offseason when I voted him into the top 10 C discussions. Tredigs was too busy telling everyone how good Ersan Ilyasova was in the PF thread and Guppy was too busy fawning over Larry Sanders I guess.

Many factors go into a players efficiency that are beyond their control. A stud is a stud and your efficiency stats as a #1 option on a team that lacks any sort of offensive talent doesn't define your ability.

Heediot
01-15-2014, 10:39 AM
Offensive center yes.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-15-2014, 10:41 AM
hell no

MonroeFAN
01-15-2014, 10:42 AM
I got **** on by the advanced stats marching band this offseason when I voted him into the top 10 C discussions. Tredigs was too busy telling everyone how good Ersan Ilyasova was in the PF thread and Guppy was too busy fawning over Larry Sanders I guess.


lol, that worked out well for him.

kingsdelez24
01-15-2014, 10:59 AM
Boogie is love...

Boogie is life

Jamiecballer
01-15-2014, 10:59 AM
yeah i don't know if he's the best center because i haven't watched a whole lot of his games so far this season, but it's pretty obvious he's the best fantasy center.

D-Leethal
01-15-2014, 11:43 AM
All that said, I don't think he's the best C. Your ability to anchor a defensive is every bit as important as your ability to dominate the post on offense when it comes to being a top tier elite C. That said, theres nobody in today's NBA who can do both, so its up to you which you think is more important. Really defends on the makeup of the team and who you have at the 4 spot - if its a rugged 4 like the Davis Bro's you can get away with being Rik Smits. If its a finesse 4 like Love you can't have a Pekovic at the 5 - you need a Tyson Chandler.

JLynn943
01-15-2014, 12:22 PM
I'm a Kings fan, and he's incredible, but I don't think he's number one. He's still bad overall defensively. I have Marc Gasol over him for sure, and I think if Dwight were in an offense where he had the ball more that he'd still be better. No doubt in my mind that he's close to being number one though.

ghettosean
01-15-2014, 01:05 PM
I'm a Kings fan, and he's incredible, but I don't think he's number one. He's still bad overall defensively. I have Marc Gasol over him for sure, and I think if Dwight were in an offense where he had the ball more that he'd still be better. No doubt in my mind that he's close to being number one though.

This!

Marc Gasol is currently the best in the game but Cousins is moving on up... for now I'd say he's in the top 3.

nycericanguy
01-15-2014, 01:08 PM
Cousins is in the Love boat, putting up amazing numbers but his team can't win.

The true greats of the past like Ewing, Robinson, even Mourning... Barlkey...etc... their teams were always competitive...

Tony_Starks
01-15-2014, 01:09 PM
He has the best offensive skill set but I'd still take Hibbert over him...

Raidergrant
01-15-2014, 01:26 PM
Yes he is. He put up 31 and 12 in 3 quarters on the best defensive center in the league in Hibbert. Yes, his defense need to improve, but I feel he is making some progress on that side of the ball and let's not forget that he is only 23 years old and isn't even in his prime yet. He's outplayed every center every game this year including D12 twice. People also say that if he is the best center in the NBA that the Kings would be winning more. Let's not forget that just a year ago the Maloofs were running this team into the ground and he did not have really that much talent around him. Now with new management he is starting to get some help and will continue to get more help. It's just a matter of time before the kings are relevant again. But yes, he is the best center in the nba.

chitownredbulls
01-15-2014, 01:36 PM
Yes...he's dominated every center that he's gone heads up against...

Hulk6
01-15-2014, 02:00 PM
He has the best offensive skill set but I'd still take Hibbert over him...

Yes, take the man who Cousins just dropped 31 and 13 on yesterday... Clown

Chronz
01-15-2014, 02:58 PM
but DMC gets a lot of steals (he reminds me of D-Rob and Hakeem in that he gets a lot of possessions for his team on defense, rather than simply blocking a shot).

His FG% is FINALLY where it is supposed to be, and though his turnovers are around the same as DH12, his assists much higher. He gets more fouls, yes, but his steals+blocks total is higher as well.


You mean the leader in shots blocked?

Cousins reminds me more of Webber defensively, potential to improve but they played defense with their hands and not their positioning. If you can find a way to bring out the best in him defensively, then hes definitely good enough to lead an offense for a championship team.

JasonJohnHorn
01-15-2014, 03:18 PM
You mean the leader in shots blocked?

Cousins reminds me more of Webber defensively, potential to improve but they played defense with their hands and not their positioning. If you can find a way to bring out the best in him defensively, then hes definitely good enough to lead an offense for a championship team.


You are right, defensively, DMC is NOWHERE near what Hakeem was defensively, or D-Rob, I only meant that he reminded me of them in his ability to get steals.....


These days it is odd to hear of a center who gets 3 steals in a game, or one who averaged over 2.0 steals a game. It simply doesn't happen. But back in the day when Hakeem was playing, and blocking LITERALLY MORE THAN TWICE as many shots as the LEAGUE LEADER blocks now, it wasn't enough to just get 4.6 blocks per game, he was throwing in 2.6 steals or 2.1 steals a game to. I mean, today, he'd be leading the league in steals AND blocks.

Obviously DMC is NOWHERE near the shot blocker, but the fact he has a ability to grab steals is unique to today's center position and is a specific skill that I haven't seen in a center since Hakeem and D-Rob (who posted 4.3 blocks and 2.2 steals per game in one season).

donovanmcnabb
01-15-2014, 06:08 PM
2 words: shaq

b@llhog24
01-15-2014, 06:17 PM
Doubt it.

Pacerlive
01-15-2014, 06:47 PM
Top offensively an easy yes.

Bottom 10 defesnively and easy yes.

So he is probably somwhere in the top 5-10.

Better than Al Jefferson but I could see him easily wasting away his talent on poor teams just like AL.

koreancabbage
01-15-2014, 07:34 PM
he's #2 bc he still doesn't give his **** on defense. as a center, you're the last line of defense - yet he hasn't played like that.

Even though i voted for Cousins, i love his offensive game. 1a and 1b for him and howard i would say.

Raidergrant
01-15-2014, 07:39 PM
[QUOTE=Pacerlive;27805191]Top offensively an easy yes.


Bottom 10 defesnively and easy yes.

So he is probably somwhere in the top 5-10.

So your saying there is 5 to 10 centers playing better basketball then Cousins!!??!!?? How many Kings games do you watch? Not one center has outplayed Cousins this year. Here's a question for you, where does Steph Curry rank among point guards? He is a horrible defender. Also tell me the 5 to 10 centers you would rather have then Cousins?

Kyben36
01-15-2014, 07:41 PM
Dwight is over rated and unskilled, DMC is under rated and over skilled.

b@llhog24
01-15-2014, 07:56 PM
[QUOTE=Pacerlive;27805191]Top offensively an easy yes.


Bottom 10 defesnively and easy yes.

So he is probably somwhere in the top 5-10.

So your saying there is 5 to 10 centers playing better basketball then Cousins!!??!!?? How many Kings games do you watch? Not one center has outplayed Cousins this year. Here's a question for you, where does Steph Curry rank among point guards? He is a horrible defender. Also tell me the 5 to 10 centers you would rather have then Cousins?

Even though I don't agree with his methodology, ranking PGs based on their defensive prowess is WAY different from ranking Cs.

D-Leethal
01-15-2014, 08:00 PM
Yes, take the man who Cousins just dropped 31 and 13 on yesterday... Clown

Or you can look at it like: Take the C who anchors the most intimidating defense we've seen since the Wallace Pistons over the guy who anchors the 4th worse defense in the NBA.

JasonJohnHorn
01-15-2014, 08:02 PM
Top offensively an easy yes.

Bottom 10 defesnively and easy yes.

So he is probably somwhere in the top 5-10.

Better than Al Jefferson but I could see him easily wasting away his talent on poor teams just like AL.

If you adjusted that to bottom 10 STARTING center I might agree.


That said... despite the fact that he may not be a 'rim protector' his 1-on-1 defense is not atrocious, at least statistically. He is leading all centers in steals easily, and he averages over a block a game per36.

The guys he covers seldom shoot over .500 if they take more than 8 shots a game. He outscored and out-rebounded Dwight last time the met up. If centers were gauged for their one-on-one defense the way SF, SG and PG were... few people would complain about DMC's defence (not that it's great). Other C's don't go off on him or shoot far above their FG% against him. So he does that. But the problem is Isaiah Thomas, being a small guy, is at a defensive disadvantage against taller point guards who can shoot and drive, because he has to play them close on the perimeter, and that makes it easy for them to blow by them... and how many times can DMC cover that? No C in the league is going to look good with Thomas playing defense at the point. Thomas makes an honest effort, but he's just got such a distinct size disadvantage.

Pacerlive
01-15-2014, 09:10 PM
If you adjusted that to bottom 10 STARTING center I might agree.


That said... despite the fact that he may not be a 'rim protector' his 1-on-1 defense is not atrocious, at least statistically. He is leading all centers in steals easily, and he averages over a block a game per36.

The guys he covers seldom shoot over .500 if they take more than 8 shots a game. He outscored and out-rebounded Dwight last time the met up. If centers were gauged for their one-on-one defense the way SF, SG and PG were... few people would complain about DMC's defence (not that it's great). Other C's don't go off on him or shoot far above their FG% against him. So he does that. But the problem is Isaiah Thomas, being a small guy, is at a defensive disadvantage against taller point guards who can shoot and drive, because he has to play them close on the perimeter, and that makes it easy for them to blow by them... and how many times can DMC cover that? No C in the league is going to look good with Thomas playing defense at the point. Thomas makes an honest effort, but he's just got such a distinct size disadvantage.
I agree his one on one defense isn't bad but Centers are a fundamental part of a defense. The anchor for help defense and the most important part of 99% of the defensive schemes implemented in the NBA. Him giving up 56% at the rim is bad so I can't put him at the top.

Is that in part Thomas's fault? Sure but it's not like Cousins is the only center with a bad defensive pg. The difference is they don't need an excuse because they protect the rim despite it.

To me Cousins is the classical one side of the court player. If he doesn't change that then I am not sure he will be as great as he could be.

Sactown
01-15-2014, 09:22 PM
Or you can look at it like: Take the C who anchors the most intimidating defense we've seen since the Wallace Pistons over the guy who anchors the 4th worse defense in the NBA.
Who also plays with the second best defensive small forward and very good defensive players everywhere else on the floor...

Kings defend the 3 the worst in the league... Can't really blame cousins for that, also we are In the top 10 in Opp FG % inside the arc.. Granted we aren't a good defensive team but the biggest weakness is the guards spots on defense... Much more than the interior...

Hibbert is great on defense, but don't act like he's the only reason for it..

kenzo400
01-16-2014, 12:00 AM
Absolutely! He still makes some stupid mistakes but he is the most dominant big man in the league. Has the higher PER and can absolutely destroy the teams defenses. When you factor everything in, he is the best center in the league by a mile.

DillyDill
01-16-2014, 04:00 AM
He's Mid-range pull-up is killer for a Big

Pacerlive
01-16-2014, 01:50 PM
Who also plays with the second best defensive small forward and very good defensive players everywhere else on the floor...

Kings defend the 3 the worst in the league... Can't really blame cousins for that, also we are In the top 10 in Opp FG % inside the arc.. Granted we aren't a good defensive team but the biggest weakness is the guards spots on defense... Much more than the interior...

Hibbert is great on defense, but don't act like he's the only reason for it..
Opponenets shot .493 in the paint against the Kings rank 23. The Pacers rank 1 at .425.

I think I can give more credit to Hibberts defensive prowess in the paint like I can give more blame to Cousins. I don't fault either for giving up threes or long 2's but come on. Hibbert and Cousins see the same amount of shots at the rim and one gives up .41% and the other gives up .56%.

RLundi
01-16-2014, 02:03 PM
There is certainly a case to be made. He might need more longevity and team success before he takes the crown, but now that he's "figured it out," he is absolutely in the running.

Better question is how long will this last?

MrfadeawayJB
01-16-2014, 02:12 PM
Right now I would say yes. I think he barely edges out Dwight but I still put a healthy Gasol over both of them

BKLYNpigeon
01-16-2014, 02:43 PM
LOL. HELL NO

you guys forget that in the NBA you play TWO side of the ball, 50% on Offense and 50% on Defense.

DMC is a great Offensive player, but his Defense is TERRIBLE. you guys just look at Stats and Highlights and make up your own conclusions.

Currently DMC plus/minus is ZERO. Yeah DMC scores 25 points but he's going to allow 25 points on the floor. hes probably better off not playing at all. the kid just doesnt play winning basketball.

tredigs
01-16-2014, 02:46 PM
Not while a center still anchors your teams Defense and Boogie sits out half the plays on that end. Also, still not seeing the leadership out of him that it takes to turn an organization around. Center's a position where if you're THAT good, you will carry a team to a respectable record.

And @Leethal concerning my Ilyasova pimping last year, it was 100% justified (I was only talking about his 2nd half anyway) and you didn't have **** to say to me at the time. Don't Monday Night QB here and act like you know wtf you're talking about.

tp13baby
01-16-2014, 02:56 PM
His defense needs to improve, and when that happens Ill take him over anyone. He is a mean mother****er and is so resilient. DMC will be the best center in the league in a year or 2 and its very close now.

imbetterthanyou
01-16-2014, 02:58 PM
LOL. HELL NO

you guys forget that in the NBA you play TWO side of the ball, 50% on Offense and 50% on Defense.

DMC is a great Offensive player, but his Defense is TERRIBLE. you guys just look at Stats and Highlights and make up your own conclusions.

Currently DMC plus/minus is ZERO. Yeah DMC scores 25 points but he's going to allow 25 points on the floor. hes probably better off not playing at all. the kid just doesnt play winning basketball.

+/- is your determining factor? theres 4 other players on the floor that help determine a player's +/-....give me a break

I guess you forgot DeMarcus Cousins teammates include Marcus Thornton Travis Outlaw Jimmer Fredette a so-far useless Ben McLemore & Jason Thompson. Not to mention for as good as he is offensively, Isaiah Thomas is as bad of a negative on defense. If you actually look at DMC's isolated defensive numbers he is not bad. I agree that he still lacks defensive team concepts. But hello we're arguing over a rising 23 year old being the number one C in the league. I dont think hes there yet, but saying hes better off not playing is absolutely dumb.

D-Leethal
01-16-2014, 04:52 PM
Not while a center still anchors your teams Defense and Boogie sits out half the plays on that end. Also, still not seeing the leadership out of him that it takes to turn an organization around. Center's a position where if you're THAT good, you will carry a team to a respectable record.

And @Leethal concerning my Ilyasova pimping last year, it was 100% justified (I was only talking about his 2nd half anyway) and you didn't have **** to say to me at the time. Don't Monday Night QB here and act like you know wtf you're talking about.

I do recall saying something along the lines of "Ilyasova was ****ing horrible for 2/3rds of the season" and all I got was omgzzz he can rebound and shoot 40% from 3.

D-Leethal
01-16-2014, 05:10 PM
Just checked, and yes I did. I went at it saying both Gallo and Deng were better than Ersan. You were clamoring for Ersan by the time we hit like #3 :laugh2:

lmfao, I just went back to check, your posts in all those threads are pure gold. Straight from the school of Guppy "stats tell me everything". Glad to see how those worked out for ya. Your posts on Monta were even better. Than you had the nerve to tell me that "stat heads and league pass watchers" were progressing the analysis around here and call everyone else "box score hawks" and trashing them nonstop :laugh2:. Your predictions were further off than anyone else in every thread. I'll save you the embarrassment of posting them. Hopefully you learned something chief. Next time you want to check yourself before sounding like an idiot spouting off "I am advancing the basketball discussion with nothing but unproven and flawed math formulas".

tredigs
01-16-2014, 05:29 PM
To be clear, the player you're trying to blast put up 17 and 9 on 50% FG, 49% from 3 and 83% from the line with solid on-ball D the past 3 months of the season. That's GREAT production. Just like he did for the 2nd half the season prior, and just like he'll probably do for the 2nd half again this year. He's just a weird player in the way he takes half a season off. Definitely not a good thing.

What were the Monta comments? Don't be scared to post. Trust me, I know his game far better than you ever will. I've seen him play at least 100 times live and hundreds more on TV. I know what he can/can't bring to the table.

tapajafri
01-17-2014, 03:04 AM
Yes. He's the best in the NBA.

tapajafri
01-17-2014, 03:08 AM
LOL. HELL NO

you guys forget that in the NBA you play TWO side of the ball, 50% on Offense and 50% on Defense.

DMC is a great Offensive player, but his Defense is TERRIBLE. you guys just look at Stats and Highlights and make up your own conclusions.

Currently DMC plus/minus is ZERO. Yeah DMC scores 25 points but he's going to allow 25 points on the floor. hes probably better off not playing at all. the kid just doesnt play winning basketball.

damn that's good logic, judging a player by his +/- when defensively, a player has 4 other teammates that are also supposed to be playing team defense. The kings defense has been horrible. But you're a warriors fan, so you should be familiar with a team who was horrible at defense and then gradually became a better defensive team with a better coaching staff that was more focused on defense. The Kings got your former defensive specialist Mike Malone and he's starting to turn that team around a lot faster than people expected. The Kings are getting better at team defense but they're still pretty bad at it compared to the rest of the league. You can't judge Cousins +/- like that. His post defense definitely needs improvement, but he's better at defense than people give him credit for. He also averages the most steals per game for all NBA centers.

tapajafri
01-17-2014, 03:08 AM
His defense needs to improve, and when that happens Ill take him over anyone. He is a mean mother****er and is so resilient. DMC will be the best center in the league in a year or 2 and its very close now.

ah, an objective fan who uses his brain. good work.

tapajafri
01-17-2014, 03:09 AM
Coming into this season, I still said Dwight was the best center in the game. Almost halfway through the season and Cousins has proved me wrong. All of these fans commenting on this thread have hardly even seen the INSANE numbers Cousins has been putting up. His post defense needs work, but he racks up steals like a guard and grabs boards like a dominant center. He leads all centers in steals per game. He's one of the top centers in assists. As for the points and rebounds…just take a look for yourself…. look at these massive double doubles. Also note the assists and steals FOR A CENTER.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/...marcus-cousins



He's the best center and most talented center in the game. His post defense needs work but I'll take the 2 steals per game he racks up if it's from my center.

sunsfan88
01-17-2014, 04:28 AM
Cousins is just so bad defensively, I don't know. In games against the Suns, he gives up the easiest pts and provides 0 rim protection. He does bad defensively in other Kings games too.

He may be the best C in the NBA but that just speaks volumes about the lack of dominance by the Cs in the NBA today.

Lakers + Giants
01-17-2014, 04:31 AM
I honestly think he is.

It's basically what would do you prefer?

A center that can score at will but isn't good defensively, or a center that can be a DPOY candidate yearly but struggles offensively.

I take DMC tbh.

Drummond#1
01-17-2014, 06:12 AM
I vote yes. And I have converted on my Boogie Cousins stance. His first year in the league I thought he would be Eddie Curry 2.0; but he seems to have rediscovered himself this season and is playing at an awesome level. I remember thinking Moose Monroe would be twice the player as DMC; but can honestly say I was wrong.

matt800
01-17-2014, 10:50 AM
As a Blazers fan if you said I could add any center to the team for free, I don't think I'd pick DMC. I think I'd go with Marc Gasol or Hibbert. I think they would be the better bet for the necessary teamwork and composure for winning championships. I think DMC could get there, but the question asked about right now. So in short, if I don't think he's the best center for winning championships right now, then I think its fair to say I don't think he's the best center right now.

Chronz
01-17-2014, 12:53 PM
You are right, defensively, DMC is NOWHERE near what Hakeem was defensively, or D-Rob, I only meant that he reminded me of them in his ability to get steals.....
Why them tho? Why not name guys who average quite abit of steals but were also getting few blocks, like Alvin Adams, Vlade or Webber at some point. Hell even Danny Manning and Nene would be better comps, even though Nene gave up gambling and developed into a fine positional defender for a stretch. When you put him next to names like that, it gives the impression that hes acquiring these stls in a similar fashion, which he most definitely is not. Those guys got steals whilst being fine positional defenders. Guys like Danny Manning get them focusing on the wrong aspects of defense, much like Cousins.



These days it is odd to hear of a center who gets 3 steals in a game, or one who averaged over 2.0 steals a game. It simply doesn't happen. But back in the day when Hakeem was playing, and blocking LITERALLY MORE THAN TWICE as many shots as the LEAGUE LEADER blocks now, it wasn't enough to just get 4.6 blocks per game, he was throwing in 2.6 steals or 2.1 steals a game to. I mean, today, he'd be leading the league in steals AND blocks.
Yep?


Obviously DMC is NOWHERE near the shot blocker, but the fact he has a ability to grab steals is unique to today's center position and is a specific skill that I haven't seen in a center since Hakeem and D-Rob (who posted 4.3 blocks and 2.2 steals per game in one season).
Yikes, thats not a good thing IMO. I must either believe you dont watch much basketball or that you were trying to hype up the only defensive aspect Cousins has excelled in, even if comes with far inferior rim protection/positional defense.



That said... despite the fact that he may not be a 'rim protector' his 1-on-1 defense is not atrocious, at least statistically.
Lots of **** defenders are that way, a guy like Bargnani is pretty good 1 on 1, but hes horrible in a team aspect, guess which is more valuable (particularly for bigmen)? In fact, thats pretty much the calling card for most bad defenders, that they focus more on their man than the opposing team.


The guys he covers seldom shoot over .500 if they take more than 8 shots a game.
According to 82games Centers have shot an eFG% of .523 on the year, while Cousins is on the floor.... just sayin.



No C in the league is going to look good with Thomas playing defense at the point.
Thats hyperbole and I sincerely hope you know it. Elite defenders can actually make their impact more noticeable when surrounded by **** defenders, obviously the team is at its best with stalwarts all over the floor but when you remove an elite rim protector from the fold, the impact is felt more drastically because hes the one keeping things looking average.

Like Dwight is no longer the elite athlete he used to be, but even he could turn a Lakers defense that was **** into something mediocre so long as he was on the floor. I know its not noticeable with Cousins, his team looks ****** with or without him and when hes out there they dont perform at a high level, but again, Cousins is a **** defender. Stop trying to paint a picture when you clearly have no ink.

Chronz
01-17-2014, 12:58 PM
I honestly think he is.

It's basically what would do you prefer?

A center that can score at will but isn't good defensively, or a center that can be a DPOY candidate yearly but struggles offensively.

I take DMC tbh.
What kind of players would you surround DMC with to make up for his defensive lapses? I think you will find the list of candidates much shorter than you would if you were to search for players to make up for the offensive shortcomings at a position where defense is of the utmost importance.

I would still take DMC because if he can turn into just a mediocre defender, hes already a more complete player. So its not based on his current form, but more about his potential. Its easier to eventually learn positioning than it is to learn touch around the rim.

Chronz
01-17-2014, 01:00 PM
His post defense needs work but I'll take the 2 steals per game he racks up if it's from my center.
How come? And I dont think his post defense needs work, there aren't too many post up centers now adays anyways. Its his TEAM defense that is atrocious.

Chronz
01-17-2014, 01:24 PM
Who also plays with the second best defensive small forward and very good defensive players everywhere else on the floor...
David West never looked this good, even alongside Chandler and a good defensive PG like CP3. Those same players look abit different without Hibberts presence. Still good yes, but not elite.


Kings defend the 3 the worst in the league... Can't really blame cousins for that,
Why not. Maybe not entirely but lots of teams that are bad at defending the 3 are so because they overcompensate the middle. Just last year my Clips were awful at defending the 3 and it was a direct result of Blake and DJ's lapses. That and Vinny was overextending our bigs, his trapping style worked for awhile, but good passing teams learned to exploit it. The numbers on our bigs have prolly dipped now that Doc leaves them on an island more often and has our perimeter players staying home but I think its for the best long term.

Where do the Kings rank in Opp 3PT attempts anyways? Not having a legit anchor can be felt in ways than more than just paint protection, but 3pt efficiency/usage as well. Ill explain in abit.


also we are In the top 10 in Opp FG % inside the arc.. Granted we aren't a good defensive team but the biggest weakness is the guards spots on defense... Much more than the interior...
Seems to me that they are bad at both, thats how you become a bad defensive team. When you have a legit anchor, teammates can guard their man closer with the knowledge that they have someone behind them who can alter shots, the coach is better able to implement his system etc...



Hibbert is great on defense, but don't act like he's the only reason for it..
Hibbert is more than great, and while his defensive support is solid, there is a noticeable difference without him in the fold. Hes turning a great defense into a historically elite one, which is what you would expect from an elite defender. Whereas Cousins impact is minuscule to nonexistent, which is prolly a big step up from the complete detriment that he used to be.

shep33
01-17-2014, 01:26 PM
I think his bad habits on defense are also tied to the fact that he plays on a horrible defensive team. He'll never be Dwight on defense but playing alongside Isiah, Rudy, Thornton, Williams, McClemore etc. doesn't really inspire one to be elite on that end. I think he'll improve that aspect of his game and become slightly above average, which would be good enough to make him the best in the NBA eventually.

Offensively I'd take him over anyone at his position though. If I were building a team, and wanted a big to carry my team in the future, I'd take cousins rather easily.

Chronz
01-17-2014, 01:28 PM
I agree his one on one defense isn't bad but Centers are a fundamental part of a defense. The anchor for help defense and the most important part of 99% of the defensive schemes implemented in the NBA. Him giving up 56% at the rim is bad so I can't put him at the top.

Is that in part Thomas's fault? Sure but it's not like Cousins is the only center with a bad defensive pg. The difference is they don't need an excuse because they protect the rim despite it.

To me Cousins is the classical one side of the court player. If he doesn't change that then I am not sure he will be as great as he could be.
Bingo. Alonzo used to thank bad defensive teammates for making him look so good. With Cousins, they only serve to expose his lack of intelligence/overwhelming athleticism. Still, there is SOME truth to the idea that he doesn't have enough support, just not enough to sway the fact that hes still bad defensively.

And personally, if he couldn't succeed as an anchor with a great positional defender like Chuck Hayes as his partner, then hes going to need alot more talent on that end. Maybe Chuck was able to instill something in him, hope it comes out at some point.

Chronz
01-17-2014, 01:33 PM
I think his bad habits on defense are also tied to the fact that he plays on a horrible defensive team.
Isn't that the hallmark of a bad defender, at some point doesn't he have to change the culture there? It cant always (its rarer than you think) come from less physically imposing players.


I think he'll improve that aspect of his game and become slightly above average, which would be good enough to make him the best in the NBA eventually.
I hope so but lets say he remains as dumb as ever on that end, how do you build with him?


Offensively I'd take him over anyone at his position though. If I were building a team, and wanted a big to carry my team in the future, I'd take cousins rather easily.

Same here, sucks that its a 2-way game tho huh.

shep33
01-17-2014, 02:03 PM
Isn't that the hallmark of a bad defender, at some point doesn't he have to change the culture there? It cant always (its rarer than you think) come from less physically imposing players.


I hope so but lets say he remains as dumb as ever on that end, how do you build with him?


Same here, sucks that its a 2-way game tho huh.

Without question, but I'm one to believe that a 23 year old can get better on that end with the right team around him. This kid had no mentors as a player, no legit vets on his squad to teach him anything about the NBA. He isn't lucky enough to play with a CP3 or Timmy, heck I think the only reasonable veteran big he's played with is Chuck Hayes.

To me team environments are a critical factor to player development. The situation in Sacramento has been toxic ever since he's been there, they were even on the verge of moving the franchise before a miracle deal presented itself.

This kid has developed on his own in a **** situation. Gotta give him credit For that. He'll be the best big in the NBA within two years.

M.Bibby2.0
01-17-2014, 02:16 PM
Something that I think is overlooked is his ability to draw a charge. He led the league two years ago in charges taken, but I cant find any recent numbers. It's not reflected in steals, blocks, oppfg% but forces a turnover which is arguably better then a block.

Lakers + Giants
01-17-2014, 02:17 PM
What kind of players would you surround DMC with to make up for his defensive lapses? I think you will find the list of candidates much shorter than you would if you were to search for players to make up for the offensive shortcomings at a position where defense is of the utmost importance.

I would still take DMC because if he can turn into just a mediocre defender, hes already a more complete player. So its not based on his current form, but more about his potential. Its easier to eventually learn positioning than it is to learn touch around the rim.

I agree that It's much harder to hide his defensive deficiency than it would be to hide a Defensive Players offensive deficiency, but If you are able to mask them, wouldn't you take the player that can score at will?

Honestly it would require at least 3 other teammates being above average defenders to mask his bad defense. Look at who he's playing with now tho, Isiah Thomas (Just like DMC, offense-oriented), Marcus Thornton (Just a chucker, horrible defender), Rudy Gay (solid? their best defender), and Jason Thompson (eh?). His teammates aren't helping his case.

Under a defensive minded coach I think he'd become the unanimous choice for best C. It's more about potential, but in the right situation he'd be a monster.

Imagine him under coach thibs. That would be the perfect situation imo.

Other coaches? SVG, Pop, Doc and probably a few more. If anything I think it will take the right coach for him to improve defensively, more so than the players around him. The players around him would only mask his bad defense, a coach would actually improve it.

Kyle916
01-17-2014, 02:19 PM
Watching him play this year on a daily basis is a treat.

Kaner
01-17-2014, 04:50 PM
Any other position I'd agree but that's because if your a bad wing defender and your man constantly blows by you theirs still a center who can save his *** and make the other team work for what would otherwise be easy buckets. 1 elite defensive center can compensate for 4 other poor defenders. meanwhile it'd take the rest of the starting lineup playing very good defense to compensate for 1 terrible defensive center

Personally for best center I'll take the DPOY candidate who's rapidly developing a great offensive game in Anthony Davis.

Sactown
01-17-2014, 10:12 PM
Any other position I'd agree but that's because if your a bad wing defender and your man constantly blows by you theirs still a center who can save his *** and make the other team work for what would otherwise be easy buckets. 1 elite defensive center can compensate for 4 other poor defenders. meanwhile it'd take the rest of the starting lineup playing very good defense to compensate for 1 terrible defensive center

Personally for best center I'll take the DPOY candidate who's rapidly developing a great offensive game in Anthony Davis.
I understand your opinion, but the reality is, Anthony Davis hasn't even been NOLA last line of defense, Ryan Anderson actually contests more shots at the rim than Anthony Davis does,

Also protecting the rim is kind of an interesting stat to me
The worst defender letting in 5 FGM per game with the best allowing only 2... The difference between the worst and the best is 3 made field goals..

Difference between AD and DMC is 1.2 FGM while DMC contests 1.2 more FGA per game..

The Kings actually allow a lower % of total points from 2 than NOLA and rank number 9 the problem with the Kings is they defend the three point line worst than anyone else in the NBA
Also believe we are last in transition as well as our guards can't defend anything at all

John Walls Era
01-17-2014, 10:13 PM
I'm always hesitant to call someone the best at something when their team is not winning. He has the stats to back it up, now he just needs his GM to build around him better.

tredigs
01-17-2014, 10:47 PM
I'm always hesitant to call someone the best at something when they don't excel at the most important role of their position. Specifically when it's arguably the most important role for a player at any position. Let me know when a team is hesitant to bring it in the paint on sac at will (and score at a high rate) and we can revisit this. We wouldn't call CP3 the best point in the league if he doled out 5 apg and just generally wasn't a good playmaker. Same goes for DMC and his lack of paint presence defensively.