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View Full Version : Minnesota has the worst PF/C rotation in terms of defending the rim



Chronz
01-14-2014, 03:56 AM
https://twitter.com/Lockedonsports/status/422856593651167232


The two worst rim defenders in the NBA (via player tracking) with 5 FGA per game at rim are Kevin Love (58.8%) and Nikola Pekovic (58%)


I know how productive they are offensively, but at what point is the lack of defense too much to ignore? Dead last? Gets worse when you consider their other rotation bigs, forget their name at the moment. Their D falls to **** in the clutch because its predicated on gambling and forcing steals, those are hard to come by when teams are more attentive. Thats why they have lost so many close games, both bigs focus solely on rebounding and not enough on helping.

Im starting to think Asik would be the better fit for them, if they could parlay Pek into a decent 3 and D type of guy to go with Asik, then they should pull the trigger.

Do you go all out and try to win with Love, or do you hold onto Pek knowing Love is likely gone?

PS: Can someone tell me how to post twitter posts?

DreamShaker
01-14-2014, 04:37 AM
Can't help you with Twitter, resisted so far. Not a tweeter.

As far as that combo goes, I have never been a fan for that exact reason. Asik would be a great fit, but it would have to be a multi-team deal, obviously. I would not give up Love this soon. If Love leavs, it doesn't matter who's still there. The team will be possibly the worst team in the NBA with or without Pek if Love leaves. So better to bottom out and hope they can actually not screw up another high draft pick.

Kushed
01-14-2014, 04:40 AM
I mean this is pretty obvious without the numbers.

And to answer your question, you go all out on Love. You don't just flop on a once in a lifetime talent, you at least try to put something around him.

Also, I'm going to put less of the close losses on love and peks rotation defense and more on the bench. You wouldn't have even made this thread if we were say 6 games over .500....

And we would be way over .500 if we had a few guys who could score the damn ball. One of the worst benches in the league.

So I'll reiterate, our lack of bench is a way bigger issue than Love and Peks D.

Asik makes us worse maybe cause when Love has an off night, Pek is still a big enough monster to keep us in the game.

sunsfan88
01-14-2014, 08:14 AM
That's pretty bad.

Btw anyone know where I can see how each center in the league rank in terms of protecting the rim?

YoungOne
01-14-2014, 09:08 AM
thats why I traded pekovic from my fantasy team, he blocks no shots at all

MonroeFAN
01-14-2014, 10:05 AM
I don't get why Love is considered a once in a life time talent. Once in a lifetime talents win basketball games. You can blame everyone else all you want, eventually you guys should just face the facts that he's not this great player you all think he is. Awesome fantasy player though.

jp611
01-14-2014, 10:08 AM
https://twitter.com/Lockedonsports/status/422856593651167232



I know how productive they are offensively, but at what point is the lack of defense too much to ignore? Dead last? Gets worse when you consider their other rotation bigs, forget their name at the moment. Their D falls to **** in the clutch because its predicated on gambling and forcing steals, those are hard to come by when teams are more attentive. Thats why they have lost so many close games, both bigs focus solely on rebounding and not enough on helping.

Im starting to think Asik would be the better fit for them, if they could parlay Pek into a decent 3 and D type of guy to go with Asik, then they should pull the trigger.

Do you go all out and try to win with Love, or do you hold onto Pek knowing Love is likely gone?

PS: Can someone tell me how to post twitter posts?

[ tweet]tweetIDnumber[ /tweet]

without the spaces though.

IndyRealist
01-14-2014, 10:23 AM
How much of this is about the perimeter allowing guards to get into the lane though? Once the bigs have to commit to the penetration, it frees up shots at the rim. When PGs burn George Hill, for instance, Hibbert comes over to stop the penetration and has to leave a big man open close to the rim.

It's funny that all of the anti-stat people jump all over all metrics because "it's a team game" but have nothing to say when someone boils rim protection down to "it's the big man's fault".

Swashcuff
01-14-2014, 10:38 AM
That's pretty bad.

Btw anyone know where I can see how each center in the league rank in terms of protecting the rim?

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&filters=FGA_DEFEND_RIM*GE*5&sortField=FGP_DEFEND_RIM&sortOrder=DES

SlimKid
01-14-2014, 10:54 AM
Every Wolves fan - myself included - depressingly nods in agreement at the below mediocrity we produce when it comes to protecting the rim. It's painful to watch at times.

beasted86
01-14-2014, 10:58 AM
https://twitter.com/Lockedonsports/status/422856593651167232



I know how productive they are offensively, but at what point is the lack of defense too much to ignore? Dead last? Gets worse when you consider their other rotation bigs, forget their name at the moment. Their D falls to **** in the clutch because its predicated on gambling and forcing steals, those are hard to come by when teams are more attentive. Thats why they have lost so many close games, both bigs focus solely on rebounding and not enough on helping.

Im starting to think Asik would be the better fit for them, if they could parlay Pek into a decent 3 and D type of guy to go with Asik, then they should pull the trigger.

Do you go all out and try to win with Love, or do you hold onto Pek knowing Love is likely gone?

PS: Can someone tell me how to post twitter posts?

This post makes little sense since at the minimum of 2 weeks ago in that Bosh thread I posted this same thing and I'm pretty sure you along with 2 others threw it down. Now you are making a new thread with this same info.

Was it because I was the one saying it? Was it too small of a sample size at that time? Or actually still saying it has nothing to do with Love and Pekovic is basically at fault here?

LongIslandIcedZ
01-14-2014, 11:13 AM
Worse than the front court rotation of Bargnani, Melo, Stat? Ouch.

I guess KMart is above average.

jp611
01-14-2014, 11:32 AM
And to add to this thread. I was just thinking about some of the problems the T-Wolves were having last night while laying in bed. A lot of blame is placed on Rubio (deservedly so), but this was a thought that came up. I think Love needs a frontcourt partner who focuses on defense.

Love-Asik was the first pairing I thought of. That would be absolutely huge for the Wolves. They would need to get some more scoring from the 3 position if they got rid of Pek though. Because there would be 3 black holes on the offense in Rubio, Brewer, and Asik.

Or else Love can just bolt and come to Chicago :D

Love-Noah would be the best front court in the NBA.

theducksmuggler
01-14-2014, 11:48 AM
if your worse then spencer hawes and thad young well then damn your pretty damn bad

KniCks4LiFe
01-14-2014, 11:57 AM
does anyone have the numbers for points allowed from the pick n' roll on MIN?

b_russ
01-14-2014, 12:06 PM
http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&filters=FGA_DEFEND_RIM*GE*5&sortField=FGP_DEFEND_RIM&sortOrder=DES

Last season's DOY, Marc Gasol #11. Only 13 games, but still.

KniCks4LiFe
01-14-2014, 12:09 PM
I mean. It's just a suggestion, but the T'Wolves would be a perfect trade partner w/ my Knicks.

You guys have issues guarding the PnR mostly between your 2 bigs. I mean KLove is going to LAL eventually, so why not deal him. We got Tyson Chandler here and might throw in K-Mart.

Chronz
01-14-2014, 12:31 PM
I mean this is pretty obvious without the numbers.
I always got the impression they were bad, just not this bad.


And to answer your question, you go all out on Love. You don't just flop on a once in a lifetime talent, you at least try to put something around him.

Yea thats prolly the most sensible, who knows, if you succeed he might stay but I dont think Pek is the answer.


Also, I'm going to put less of the close losses on love and peks rotation defense and more on the bench. You wouldn't have even made this thread if we were say 6 games over .500....

Yeah, who knows, it could still be a flukish record in close games but one thing for sure is that even if its somewhat a product of luck, the team is too bad in the clutch for it not to be a harbinger worth worrying about.


And we would be way over .500 if we had a few guys who could score the damn ball. One of the worst benches in the league.

Yea but that ignores the issue at hand here, the bench doesn't play in the clutch moments, and the offense, while unspectacular isn't the reason the team struggles to close teams out. Its their horrendous defense.


So I'll reiterate, our lack of bench is a way bigger issue than Love and Peks D.
I disagree, bench play is far less important than what the starters accomplish because come playoffs, they play less of a role any ways.


Asik makes us worse maybe cause when Love has an off night, Pek is still a big enough monster to keep us in the game.
Well hes definitely more talented but I see the addition of Asik as a way to take one step back in order to take 2 forward later, offense is easier to replace from bigmen, but elite rim protection is far scarcer and more important to contention. If you guys still had AK it would be less of an issue. Good luck finding a defensive impact player on the perimeter because its clearly not going to come from these 2. At least not with Adelman running things (just my opinion, hate that guy)

Chronz
01-14-2014, 01:06 PM
https://twitter.com/Lockedonsports/status/422856593651167232



I know how productive they are offensively, but at what point is the lack of defense too much to ignore? Dead last? Gets worse when you consider their other rotation bigs, forget their name at the moment. Their D falls to **** in the clutch because its predicated on gambling and forcing steals, those are hard to come by when teams are more attentive. Thats why they have lost so many close games, both bigs focus solely on rebounding and not enough on helping.

Im starting to think Asik would be the better fit for them, if they could parlay Pek into a decent 3 and D type of guy to go with Asik, then they should pull the trigger.

Do you go all out and try to win with Love, or do you hold onto Pek knowing Love is likely gone?

PS: Can someone tell me how to post twitter posts?

This post makes little sense since at the minimum of 2 weeks ago in that Bosh thread I posted this same thing and I'm pretty sure you along with 2 others threw it down. Now you are making a new thread with this same info.

Was it because I was the one saying it? Was it too small of a sample size at that time? Or actually still saying it has nothing to do with Love and Pekovic is basically at fault here?
I recall you blaming Love for their ultimate success and comparing him with players nobody ever said he was better than.

But to answer your questions, when it comes to clutch play, there is alot of randomness but this is an issue they have to correct at some point.

Brings up an interesting debate between a team like dallas which has exceeded its expected record by winning close games vs a team like minnys. Curious to see which team finishes ahead

leprechaun5
01-14-2014, 01:15 PM
Don't ignore the fact that adelman defensive system is probably bottom 5 in NBA.

beasted86
01-14-2014, 01:27 PM
I recall you blaming Love for their ultimate success and comparing him with players nobody ever said he was better than.

But to answer your questions, when it comes to clutch play, there is alot of randomness but this is an issue they have to correct at some point.

Brings up an interesting debate between a team like dallas which has exceeded its expected record by winning close games vs a team like minnys. Curious to see which team finishes ahead
Well I looked back at the thread just now, it was more of two other posters putting the defensive stats, and specifically rim protection aside than you. But I did bring up the expected win/loss situation with the Wolves and you said it wasn't a factor then and thought it would eventually play out in their favor. Either way, in that thread and now I am saying the rim protection is a factor and why teams like the Suns and Mavericks have exceeded their win/loss expectations and the Wolves haven't.

I agree both Love and Pekovic focus mainly on rebounding than contesting shots, trapping, hedging, and many other defensive aspects. The Wolves defense is improved from last year, but still not good enough clearly.

Tblaze
01-14-2014, 01:59 PM
This is exactly why upgrading from JJ Hickson to Robin Lopez was so huge for the blazers this season... Hickson is a beast taking rebounds, but that doesn't impact the game as much at all as being a true rim protector is.

I think Minny should look for a similar move... Asik would be a better fit for sure.

KniCks4LiFe
01-14-2014, 02:05 PM
This is exactly why upgrading from JJ Hickson to Robin Lopez was so huge for the blazers this season... Hickson is a beast taking rebounds, but that doesn't impact the game as much at all as being a true rim protector is.

I think Minny should look for a similar move... Asik would be a better fit for sure.

That was a genius move. I love JJ's offense but man Robin Lopez makes it so much easier for LA to take over.

Yeh but that 15 million kicker.

Chronz
01-14-2014, 02:22 PM
This is exactly why upgrading from JJ Hickson to Robin Lopez was so huge for the blazers this season... Hickson is a beast taking rebounds, but that doesn't impact the game as much at all as being a true rim protector is.

I think Minny should look for a similar move... Asik would be a better fit for sure.

Good comparison, Hickson could be considered the more productive player based on boxscore metrics, but I would agree that Lopez has been more of a difference maker for his particular team.

Hawkeye15
01-14-2014, 04:25 PM
as I stated in that Pek/Asik thread, long term, of course it makes sense to swap them, and match salary. But we have a clock ticking on Love. If we bring in Asik to replace Love, we had better address the SF position, or hope Rubio wakes up and becomes even a slight offensive threat down the stretch of close games. 4 points in the combined 10 games fourth quarters of close games is not going to cut it.

But our defense goes to **** in tight games. For sure.

IKnowHoops
01-14-2014, 05:37 PM
I don't get why Love is considered a once in a life time talent. Once in a lifetime talents win basketball games. You can blame everyone else all you want, eventually you guys should just face the facts that he's not this great player you all think he is. Awesome fantasy player though.

He's not, dude went to far. He's just a great player nothing more. He's not better than Barkley, Malone, or KG to name a few, and those guys aren't once in a lifetime players either. Prime KG is on another level, heck all three are.

IKnowHoops
01-14-2014, 05:38 PM
How much of this is about the perimeter allowing guards to get into the lane though? Once the bigs have to commit to the penetration, it frees up shots at the rim. When PGs burn George Hill, for instance, Hibbert comes over to stop the penetration and has to leave a big man open close to the rim.

It's funny that all of the anti-stat people jump all over all metrics because "it's a team game" but have nothing to say when someone boils rim protection down to "it's the big man's fault".

Both should have some blocks under there belt like Hibbert then, but thats not the case is it.

Bruno
01-14-2014, 06:19 PM
not saying Monroe is a great rim protector but he's a true five who's being mis used in Detroit as their PF. I think he could excel in Minny next to Love. detroit wouldn't want PEK, but maybe some kind of three team deal could be beneficial.

Pacerlive
01-14-2014, 06:32 PM
https://twitter.com/Lockedonsports/status/422856593651167232



I know how productive they are offensively, but at what point is the lack of defense too much to ignore? Dead last? Gets worse when you consider their other rotation bigs, forget their name at the moment. Their D falls to **** in the clutch because its predicated on gambling and forcing steals, those are hard to come by when teams are more attentive. Thats why they have lost so many close games, both bigs focus solely on rebounding and not enough on helping.

Im starting to think Asik would be the better fit for them, if they could parlay Pek into a decent 3 and D type of guy to go with Asik, then they should pull the trigger.

Do you go all out and try to win with Love, or do you hold onto Pek knowing Love is likely gone?


Synergy both has Love and Pek opponents ppp at 0.88. Both excel at post up defense at 0.73 and 0.74.

Love sucks on the pnr (roll man defense) his oppenents have 1.18 ppp, while Nekos is 0.69.

Neko sucks at the spot up defense giving up 1.19 ppp, Loves not much better at 0.91.

sunsfan88
01-14-2014, 08:38 PM
http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&filters=FGA_DEFEND_RIM*GE*5&sortField=FGP_DEFEND_RIM&sortOrder=DES

Thanks brah.

Surprised to see Griffin, Jordan, M Gasol, Cousins all also ranked so badly.

odiz
01-14-2014, 09:01 PM
I don't get why Love is considered a once in a life time talent. Once in a lifetime talents win basketball games. You can blame everyone else all you want, eventually you guys should just face the facts that he's not this great player you all think he is. Awesome fantasy player though.

Exactly. Hes a once in a lifetime fantasy player. But hes not a winner and you will never be able to build one around him.

BirdIsTheWord
01-14-2014, 09:04 PM
This is exactly why upgrading from JJ Hickson to Robin Lopez was so huge for the blazers this season... Hickson is a beast taking rebounds, but that doesn't impact the game as much at all as being a true rim protector is.

I think Minny should look for a similar move... Asik would be a better fit for sure.

:sigh:

Jets012
01-14-2014, 10:07 PM
http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&filters=FGA_DEFEND_RIM*GE*5&sortField=FGP_DEFEND_RIM&sortOrder=DES

Upsetting as a Lopez fan. The guy is so hated for no reason. He's a prolific offensive center and he developed into an above average defender. If he was healthy he's without a doubt a top 5 center and the best player on the Nets