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View Full Version : Is CP3 holding Blake back



OlivaThor
01-11-2014, 03:51 PM
I know that Chris Paul is best PG in the league for couple of years but it seems Blake plays much better without him. His best season was his first when CP3 wasn´t on the team. I think that if CP3 wasn´t on a team, Blake would have much bigger role as a leader and his game would much more devenlop. What do you think?

LAKobeBryant
01-11-2014, 03:55 PM
cp3 as leader = more wins
blake as leader = no playoff

simple

OlivaThor
01-11-2014, 04:05 PM
cp3 as leader = more wins
blake as leader = no playoff
simple

Thats for sure but i don´t talk about team. I´m asking if CP3 negatively affected Blake´s devenlop.

Chronz
01-11-2014, 04:07 PM
I know that Chris Paul is best PG in the league for couple of years but it seems Blake plays much better without him. His best season was his first when CP3 wasn´t on the team. I think that if CP3 wasn´t on a team, Blake would have much bigger role as a leader and his game would much more devenlop. What do you think?
His best season was not his first without CP3, and we've already seen Blake without CP3 in stretches since then. The only thing holding Blake back was himself and his limited skillset.

Max.This
01-11-2014, 04:08 PM
yeah no doubt, trade cp3 to knicks for amare/ raymond felton. Should increase productivity exponentially

PrettyBoyJ
01-11-2014, 04:10 PM
What does CP3 have to do with Blake spending more time developing a consistent mid range jump shot or some post moves. If Blake developed that, Chris Paul would make him look like a superstar.

Shlumpledink
01-11-2014, 04:18 PM
Cp3 makes life easier for Griffin. If Griffin played better in his first season, it's because blake had a season to scout nba teams while he sat out with his knee injury, then he got to benefit from teams not having him scouted yet. His first year in, teams weren't ready for someone that explosive, now teams understand him better and play him accordingly.

If anything, playing with CP3 might make griffin complacent, because Paul creates so well for him.

I think Deandre is holding Blake back. Deandre clogs the lane, while not being a threat on offense.

Riodagoat
01-11-2014, 04:19 PM
:facepalm:

EL_MACHETE
01-11-2014, 04:24 PM
I doubt their holding him back, but Griffin is growing as a better player.

He'll be the next Shawn Kemp

Chronz
01-11-2014, 04:29 PM
I doubt their holding him back, but Griffin is growing as a better player.

He'll be the next Shawn Kemp

I think hes already better offensively, if he can get to Shawn's defensive impact, then we are contenders.

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 04:32 PM
Chronz you've admitted as much before, why are you going back on it? All 3 years Blake steps.up huge in CP3's absence. Are we a better team without CP3? Hell no. Is Blake better individually? Yes. I've been saying since the first season CP3 was hurting Blake. He didn't get him the bal in good situations at al and dominated the ball too much for Blake to utilize his skillset as much.

That being said THIS year CP3 hasn't held Blake back much. He's done an infinitely better job at feeding Blake and finding him in the right spots. It obviously can also be attributed to Blake's massively improved jumper.

Prior to this year CP3 was assisting on a surprisingly low number of Blake's buckets. This year it's a staggering 65 percent of Blake's buckets or something ridiculous. All I know is both guys deserve props. Luckily they aren't chemistry cancers like Kobe, Dwight, Melo. Took them 3 years but they found that beautiful chemistry this year that I envisioned from day one.

Cracka2HI!
01-11-2014, 04:35 PM
It's not uncommon for a team to step up for a few games when it's star goes down. The Clippers have had their best stretch of the season without CP3 as well. It means nothing. Blake and the team are better with CP3. The only guy his injury definitely helps is Collison who I think is much better as a starter.

Chronz
01-11-2014, 04:36 PM
Chronz you've admitted as much before, why are you going back on it?
Incorrect. My stance has been the same since day 1. I challenge you to find a single post that states otherwise. Dont you remember me showing you the numbers?


All 3 years Blake steps.up huge in CP3's absence.
Like I said in the other thread, EVERYTHING is HUGE in your opinion. How can you not remember me saying Blake is Blake regardless? Try using some facts in your next post and I will take the time to respond.

Cracka2HI!
01-11-2014, 04:41 PM
Chronz you've admitted as much before, why are you going back on it? All 3 years Blake steps.up huge in CP3's absence. Are we a better team without CP3? Hell no. Is Blake better individually? Yes. I've been saying since the first season CP3 was hurting Blake. He didn't get him the bal in good situations at al and dominated the ball too much for Blake to utilize his skillset as much.

That being said THIS year CP3 hasn't held Blake back much. He's done an infinitely better job at feeding Blake and finding him in the right spots. It obviously can also be attributed to Blake's massively improved jumper.

Prior to this year CP3 was assisting on a surprisingly low number of Blake's buckets. This year it's a staggering 65 percent of Blake's buckets or something ridiculous. All I know is both guys deserve props. Luckily they aren't chemistry cancers like Kobe, Dwight, Melo. Took them 3 years but they found that beautiful chemistry this year that I envisioned from day one.

Not disagreeing with you, but CP3 was not holding Blake back. Blake was holding himself back. Blake didn't want the ball like he's wanted it the last 20 games or so. It wasn't as much CP3 not getting Blake the ball as Blake not wanting or demanding the ball IMO.

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 04:47 PM
Chronz you're right, you admitted CP3 doesn't make Blake better individually, not that he holds him back. Anyways yes CP3 limits Blake at times somewhat due to holding the ball 20 seconds and kicking to Blake with a couple seconds left for a bail out. Which is why Doc has been on CP3 a ton about getting into the offense quicker.

Chronz
01-11-2014, 04:49 PM
Not disagreeing with you, but CP3 was not holding Blake back. Blake was holding himself back. Blake didn't want the ball like he's wanted it the last 20 games or so. It wasn't as much CP3 not getting Blake the ball as Blake not wanting or demanding the ball IMO.

Blake's great play started before CP3 went down. Not sure why you think this has been our best stretch tho, considering the lackluster opponents.

If Blake is being held back by CP3, its a very minimal relationship, thats always been my stance. We definitely dont see a far different player the way we have when we see CP3 without Blake.

When CP3 plays without Blake, his scoring rate increases dramatically. Blake doesn't become more agressive he actually becomes more of a passer. His overall statistical worth isn't drastically different the way CP3 is.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-11-2014, 04:49 PM
yeah definetly, the best PG in the game is holding him back.

Chronz
01-11-2014, 04:51 PM
Chronz you're right, you admitted CP3 doesn't make Blake better individually, not that he holds him back. Anyways yes CP3 limits Blake at times somewhat due to holding the ball 20 seconds and kicking to Blake with a couple seconds left for a bail out. Which is why Doc has been on CP3 a ton about getting into the offense quicker.
Not buying this. Doc wants him to get into the offense quicker because it allows the team read multiple options. He (and Vinny)wanted Blake to stop holding the ball as well because it allows the defense to catch up.

But yea, I did say that CP3 and Blake dont have the Nash-Amare synergy in that they both play better with each other out there (Amare moreso than Nash), rather these are two guys who like to play PG. Blake has gotten better about attacking on the catch tho.

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 04:58 PM
Cracka it was both. CP3 himself the last two years after his exit interviews admitted he needs to do a better job getting the ball to Blake. He deserves some of the blame and now some of the credit.

mike_noodles
01-11-2014, 05:05 PM
Trade him to the Raps then for Lowry and a 2016 first rounder.

Cracka2HI!
01-11-2014, 05:08 PM
Blake's great play started before CP3 went down. Not sure why you think this has been our best stretch tho, considering the lackluster opponents.

If Blake is being held back by CP3, its a very minimal relationship, thats always been my stance. We definitely dont see a far different player the way we have when we see CP3 without Blake.

When CP3 plays without Blake, his scoring rate increases dramatically. Blake doesn't become more agressive he actually becomes more of a passer. His overall statistical worth isn't drastically different the way CP3 is.
Like I said Blake has been playing aggressively for the last 20 games or so. I'm not a big stats guy but the team basically has all blowout wins without CP3 besides the Spurs game.

Chronz
01-11-2014, 05:11 PM
Like I said Blake has been playing aggressively for the last 20 games or so. I'm not a big stats guy but the team basically has all blowout wins without CP3 besides the Spurs game.

You mean besides the team that was worth a damn. Its been such a small sample of games against such mediocre opponents, Im going to wait awhile before I call this our best stretch. And we should be expecting the team to get better, Doc was treating the first few weeks as something of an experiment.

ManRam
01-11-2014, 05:15 PM
Has PSD ever not overreacted to any Chris Paul injury?

This is foolish.

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 05:15 PM
Chronz has CP3 ever made a mistake?

Chronz
01-11-2014, 05:17 PM
Cracka it was both. CP3 himself the last two years after his exit interviews admitted he needs to do a better job getting the ball to Blake. He deserves some of the blame and now some of the credit.

Even if true, its most definitely mostly Blakes doing that has changed things. Like 90% Blake, 5% CP3, 5% other

Chronz
01-11-2014, 05:18 PM
Chronz has CP3 ever made a mistake?
What makes you ask blakefan86? Hilarious that you ask that in this thread BTW, where you try to make excuses instead of holding Blake accountable.

Cracka2HI!
01-11-2014, 05:24 PM
You mean besides the team that was worth a damn. Its been such a small sample of games against such mediocre opponents, Im going to wait awhile before I call this our best stretch. And we should be expecting the team to get better, Doc was treating the first few weeks as something of an experiment.

True it's been against bad teams, my point was basically saying Blake is better without CP3 would be like saying the team is better without CP3 because they've been blowing out teams. Neither is true IMO. I actually expect the team to have some struggles without CP3, but yea Doc's presence is really starting to show.

3RDASYSTEM
01-11-2014, 05:31 PM
I think hes already better offensively, if he can get to Shawn's defensive impact, then we are contenders.

True, but it's going to be tough for BLAKE to have that type of d impact being barely 6'6'' and playing the interior similar to BARKLEY back in his youthful days, freak of nature players who were vastly undersized which will always be what it is, but I feel BLAKE can be a better defender than BARKLEY just off sheer effort but not KEMP who was damn near a footer who was a freak athlete...and still the CLIPPS will be contenders with a duo of CP3/BG and JORDAN down low to provide a footer presence and snipers around your allstar duo who is willing to pass the ball, that's a recipe for contenders as long as the injuries stay at bay

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 05:34 PM
Chronz you seem to defend CP3 no matter what. It's definitely true that CP3 is immune to criticism when at times he deserves it. CP3 has been in the league 4 extra years and is considered better than Blake. So the fact that Blake gets significantly more crticism is dumb. When we do well CP3 gets all the credit. When we fall short Blake gets all the criticism. Glad to see Blake becoming our best player.

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 05:35 PM
I've criticized Blake plenty. Never see you own up to CP3's shortcomings or games he costs us etc. Nope let's pin it all on his.teammates.

Chronz
01-11-2014, 05:37 PM
True, but it's going to be tough for BLAKE to have that type of d impact being barely 6'6'' and playing the interior similar to BARKLEY back in his youthful days, freak of nature players who were vastly undersized which will always be what it is, but I feel BLAKE can be a better defender than BARKLEY just off sheer effort but not KEMP who was damn near a footer who was a freak athlete...and still the CLIPPS will be contenders with a duo of CP3/BG and JORDAN down low to provide a footer presence and snipers around your allstar duo who is willing to pass the ball, that's a recipe for contenders as long as the injuries stay at bay

Blake was measured at 6"8.50 to Kemps 6"8.75 . Both were 6"9 with shoes. Kemp prolly had a longer reach because Blake has T-Rex arms but we've seen guys with those measurements block shots at a higher rate than Blake. Not saying he needs to start blocking shots exactly but he needs to do something.

DJ has to become a better rim protector if Blake cant up his defensive impact.

Chronz
01-11-2014, 05:39 PM
Chronz you seem to defend CP3 no matter what. It's definitely true that CP3 is immune to criticism when at times he deserves it. CP3 has been in the league 4 extra years and is considered better than Blake. So the fact that Blake gets significantly more crticism is dumb. When we do well CP3 gets all the credit. When we fall short Blake gets all the criticism. Glad to see Blake becoming our best player.

I've criticized Blake plenty. Never see you own up to CP3's shortcomings or games he costs us etc. Nope let's pin it all on his.teammates.

Thats because Im objective and not an admitted emotional fan. The reason Blake gets more criticism has nothing to do with his age, it has to do with shortcomings in his game as opposed to the completeness of CP3's. Why would I criticize the superior player more than the flawed one LMFAO..

Like I've told you in the past, I've set the bar low for Blake and he has yet to come through.

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 05:40 PM
3rd what in the flying ***** are you talking about? Blake measured.just a shade under 6'9" at the combine barefoot, 6'10 in shoes. Kemp was 6'10 barefoot... that adds up to an inch difference, where are you getting half a foot? Blake already is a better defender than Barkley was. Kemp had a couple real nice defensive years but I've never thought of him as a defensive anchor. Considering how far Blake's D has come the last two years, I'm sure he will get there.

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 05:44 PM
Well there you go. Same height. I was sure Kemp had an inch on him, guess not. He did have a big length edge though.

Chronz
01-11-2014, 05:44 PM
3rd what in the flying ***** are you talking about? Blake measured.just a shade under 6'9" at the combine barefoot, 6'10 in shoes. Kemp was 6'10 barefoot... that adds up to an inch difference, where are you getting half a foot? Blake already is a better defender than Barkley was. Kemp had a couple real nice defensive years but I've never thought of him as a defensive anchor. Considering how far Blake's D has come the last two years, I'm sure he will get there.

Kemp has been a part of some really great defenses, and Barkley was a better shotblocker+defensive rebounder in his youth. So are we sure Blake is already better?

And did Kemp really grow to 6"10 barefoot? If so thats a pretty big difference, though length is prolly the more important barometer. Has Blake grown at all since the draft? Kemp did come in younger IIRC.

Rndy
01-11-2014, 05:46 PM
I've always wondered if the Clips would be better off with more of a pick and pop PF. CP3 working with West all those years was just such a great P&P combination. It would be hard to lose such a player like Blake who I'm sure brings big bucks to the Clips. But at the end of the day you'll make money regardless if you're winning rings. If they had a guy like LA or Love to spread the floor I believe they would be a better team.

Griffin if he continues to work as a player and eventually gets a consistent shot it will be a non issue. Guys like Boozer(not a good example performance based) once they lost their athleticism had to change as a player to still be some what effective. Hopefully Blake becomes an all around player before he's forced to.

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 06:00 PM
Rndy this year Blake's midrange IS consistent, outside of a rough start. About halfway through season he's at about 40 percent.

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 06:06 PM
Chronz I don't know which D stats you like but for DRTG for example Barkley has only had a better Drtg than current Blake two seasons. Barkley averaged .8 bpg over his career and 1.3 over his first 5 years. Hardly worth noting over Blake right? Even if Blake isn't a better defender yet than prime Barkley he's no worse. Kemp isn't exactly shooting for the moon defensively for Blake. I think he can be a little better in his prime, but we'll see.

Chronz
01-11-2014, 06:13 PM
Couldve sworn Barkley had higher numbers. But Im not talking about any average really, just him at his best. Maybe Im letting the highlight reels effect me.

ill revisit this later

FOXHOUND
01-11-2014, 06:23 PM
No, I don't think Paul holds back Griffin at all. Yeah, maybe he was too ball dominant the past couple of seasons and they didn't have the best chemistry yet but that's part of the business when you're talking about a proven, established star PG like Paul vs a young and raw PF like Blake.

Having said that, Blake has made HUGE improvements to his game over the years, he doesn't get nearly enough credit for it. The past two years and this year you can see huge improvements in his post game, his defense, his half court passing and this year his FREE THROW SHOOTING, something many people thought he would never be able to fix. This year he is shooting 70% from the line up from 66%, but a much larger growth throughout the season itself as he is shooting 75% from the line from December 1st to today.

He still mainly excels in the open court game but his half court game has improved tremendously. As much as I doubt Blake at times you gotta give him credit for his work ethic. He clearly spends a lot of time in the offseason working on his game.

b@llhog24
01-11-2014, 06:42 PM
Nope.

koreancabbage
01-11-2014, 08:37 PM
and this is why I would not trade Griffin for Melo. Griffin's potential is off the charts and he's yet to reach his prime.

Sky's the limit for Griffin and it would be safe to say he can become the next superstar in this league once he rounds out his game, becomes more efficient in his shooting ways, jumpshot (+45%) and free throws (+80%), and a little better in his post game, and play some better defense.

NYKnickFanatic
01-11-2014, 09:05 PM
yeah no doubt, trade cp3 to knicks for amare/ raymond felton. Should increase productivity exponentially

Lmao I like the way you think ;)

Clippersfan86
01-11-2014, 10:07 PM
http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1917915-the-major-flaw-with-evaluating-blake-griffin

Great read. Wow didn't know Griffin was 14th in PPP in the post this year. Also.look.at his.shot chart.

FlashBolt
01-12-2014, 05:26 AM
Chronz you're right, you admitted CP3 doesn't make Blake better individually, not that he holds him back. Anyways yes CP3 limits Blake at times somewhat due to holding the ball 20 seconds and kicking to Blake with a couple seconds left for a bail out. Which is why Doc has been on CP3 a ton about getting into the offense quicker.

What kind of argument is this? Obviously when you pack elite players on one team - it's bound to limit and hold back individually. Does WB, Granger, LeBron, Harden, and a couple of more others hold their respective superstar teammates back? Most definitely. But as you can see in OKC's case, it's not what's best for the team. CP3 holds Blake back but it's up to Blake to develop his skillset. He needs to learn to step back to the three point line and nail the midrange shot. If he can at least duplicate Ibaka's shot, he should be fine.

Chronz
01-12-2014, 11:06 AM
What kind of argument is this? Obviously when you pack elite players on one team - it's bound to limit and hold back individually. Does WB, Granger, LeBron, Harden, and a couple of more others hold their respective superstar teammates back? Most definitely. But as you can see in OKC's case, it's not what's best for the team. CP3 holds Blake back but it's up to Blake to develop his skillset. He needs to learn to step back to the three point line and nail the midrange shot. If he can at least duplicate Ibaka's shot, he should be fine.
Dont live life by these generalities. Did Nash hold back Amare? Nope. Did Stockton, Malone? Did Deron, Booz.... etc

Some teammates are suppose to compliment each other, sadly CP3 and Blake dont have that instant synergy and its a direct result of their overlapping skillsets (both want to be PG's), so over their 2+ seasons together, Blake hasn't been the kind of player effected by CP3 statistically. This can say 2 things about him, that hes not overly complimentary but also that hes not overly reliant. Not sure if thats a good or bad thing.
His game changes abit but its not the drastic change you see when Wade-Bron play without each other for instance (at least their first year, dont know about their stats since then). Hell even CP3's game changes without Blake but at the same time its not like CP3 could sustain that kind of effort for the full 82. What held Blake back was his own skillset and mindset. Now he has a jumper and is playing with more aggression.