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View Full Version : Brad Doolittle (ESPN Insider) Ranks the top 10 centers so far this year



Corey
01-07-2014, 11:52 PM
It's an insider article, so I cant post all of the bits and pieces, but his rankings are as follows:

1) Anthony Davis
2) DeMarcus Cousins
3) Andre Drummond
4) Dwight Howard
5) Tim Duncan
6) Joakim Noah
7) Al Horford
8) Brook Lopez
9) DeAndre Jordan
10) Marc Gasol

(His next five were Al Jefferson, Anderson Varejao, Roy Hibbert, Nikola Vucevic, and Derrick Favors)

Discuss

NBA_Starter
01-07-2014, 11:55 PM
My problem is classifying who plays what, Are Davis and Favors really centers? What does he classify Bosh? Or is he just saying he is that bad?

Cal827
01-07-2014, 11:59 PM
It's an insider article, so I cant post all of the bits and pieces, but his rankings are as follows:

1) Anthony Davis
2) DeMarcus Cousins
3) Andre Drummond
4) Dwight Howard
5) Tim Duncan
6) Joakim Noah
7) Al Horford
8) Brook Lopez
9) DeAndre Jordan
10) Marc Gasol

(His next five were Al Jefferson, Anderson Varejao, Roy Hibbert, Nikola Vucevic, and Derrick Favors)

Discuss

1) Davis is a Center?
2) Makes Sense, he should be up around here
3) He's been dominant, but top 3 center in the NBA already? I think he'll probably be the best one in a couple years, but I have him at 5th or 6th
4) Surprised he's fallen so low (at least to them)
5) I think should be higher
6)Same as Duncan.
7) About Right
8) About Right
9) :laugh2:
10) Higher! I know the DPOY has been hurt but damn, this seems like a free fall

This seems like one of the articles that might make you want to get a refund for the insider :laugh2:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-08-2014, 12:05 AM
any list that comes out of ESPN "experts" is awful and so it is this

Swashcuff
01-08-2014, 12:09 AM
Brook 8th? Favors over Pek. Can't get on board with that. Brook was the best C in the East in his time on the floor this season. Also if Davis is being classed as a C is Bosh Corey?

Corey
01-08-2014, 12:09 AM
My problem is classifying who plays what, Are Davis and Favors really centers? What does he classify Bosh? Or is he just saying he is that bad?

He used 82games minutes log as a basis for assigning position.

Corey
01-08-2014, 12:10 AM
Brook 8th? Favors over Pek. Can't get on board with that. Brook was the best C in the East in his time on the floor this season. Also if Davis is being classed as a C is Bosh Corey?

Bosh wasn't included in the article, so I assume not.

This is his explanation for his metric:


1. Players are based on TrueWARP, which is an attempt to measure the current actual value of each player's performance at this point of their career. The "WARP" part of the moniker comes from wins above replacement, while the "True" was added because you have to call it something. Henry Abbott was not consulted during the process of naming this metric, but hopefully he won't mind.

2. TrueWARP is a blend of a player's preseason baseline forecast and his 2013-14 results. The degree to which his season winning percentage has regressed against his forecast depends on his experience. Projections for younger players, especially rookies, have a much higher error bar than those for veteran players. Thus, the younger a player is, the more weight his 2013-14 results carry.

3. WARP is a calculation based on winning percentage, or per-possession efficiency, and playing time. For the playing time component, I've used actual minutes per game for this season to capture the size of role each player is holding down. Each player's TrueWARP is calculated on a per-82-game basis to filter out durability issues. We're strictly looking at a player's quality of on-court performance, not how often he's able to go out and apply it. Obviously in the real world, the durability issues regarding players like Derrick Rose, Kobe Bryant and Brook Lopez have to be carefully considered.

4. Grouping players by position is always an inexact science, but I focused on how players have been deployed this season. The stats website 82games.com uses play-by-play data to track the percentage of time a player is used at each position, and I've used that as the basis for my grouping. Position classification is nebulous, but think of it like this: Players occupy a certain space on the floor, and the space they are assigned is usually determined by the players they share the court with. So Carmelo Anthony may be a natural 3, but the majority of the time the Knicks put him in lineups in which he is a 4.

ManRam
01-08-2014, 12:11 AM
I'm not sure AD is a center. If he is, he's been the best. That's fine.

I'm fine with Cousins at #2, though there's still some stuff he's gotta work on, especially defensively.

I'd still have Dwight at #2 behind AD. Certainly ahead of Drummond. Drummond's defensive impact hasn't been as good as it needs to be, not even close.

I'm a little uncomfortable with Drummond and Cousins being 3 and 2. Drummond's defensive impact hasn't at all been significant enough to justify that, especially considering his limitations offensively. I can't justify putting him above Howard at this point.

DeAndre isn't top-10, at all. Not even close, especially because he's not defending like usual.

Seems overall there's a de-emphasis on defense here. I'd put Hibbert in the top-10, even with his offensive struggles. His defense is just too damn good to ignore. If we're assuming full health, Gasol is way too low too.

So yeah, not in love with this. I do like Doolittle though...but whatever.


Wait, he did this based solely on TrueWARP?

dhopisthename
01-08-2014, 12:21 AM
bosh was 17th

bucketss
01-08-2014, 12:36 AM
would you be able to pm the rest of the article to me or nah, if nah, its alright

valade16
01-08-2014, 12:44 AM
Roy Hibbert anyone? How on earth is he not on the list and more importantly, why didn't anyone else say anything about this?!

Hawkeye15
01-08-2014, 12:46 AM
Hibbert not being listed is ridiculous, and Pekovic should be on that list.

John Walls Era
01-08-2014, 12:47 AM
Bad list.

Shammyguy3
01-08-2014, 01:47 AM
Pretty woeful list

JNA17
01-08-2014, 02:08 AM
Yes AD is a center, deal with it.

My only gripe with the list is that Hibbert and Pek for some reason are not on here. Noah and Jordan are way too high IMO.

Guppyfighter
01-08-2014, 02:16 AM
Hibbert not being listed is ridiculous, and Pekovic should be on that list.

Sportsvu has Nikola as the worst defender around the rim in the league.

His offensive output is amazing though.

LOVE42
01-08-2014, 02:23 AM
Pek deserves to be there over Jordan at least... Dude is an animal

shep33
01-08-2014, 02:29 AM
1) Davis is a Center?
2) Makes Sense, he should be up around here
3) He's been dominant, but top 3 center in the NBA already? I think he'll probably be the best one in a couple years, but I have him at 5th or 6th
4) Surprised he's fallen so low (at least to them)
5) I think should be higher
6)Same as Duncan.
7) About Right
8) About Right
9) :laugh2:
10) Higher! I know the DPOY has been hurt but damn, this seems like a free fall

This seems like one of the articles that might make you want to get a refund for the insider :laugh2:

This. Gotta agree with Cal

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 02:30 AM
Manram is that a joke? If anything DJ is top 5 this year. 10/13/2.5/1 on great efficiency and as one of maybe 5 legit defensive anchors and he's "Nowhere close to top 10"?

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 02:56 AM
Went through stats. Only Dwight and healthy Gasol stack up to DJ this year. Unless you dont care about D then Cousins, Pek and Lopez . Hibbert is averaging worse numbers on far inferior efficiency. 8 rpg from a 7 foot anchor? Lol. Davis has been compared to PF's all year , now he's a C? Duncan declined noticeably this year. Drummond is similar to DJ this year, but will be the best center soon.

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 03:06 AM
Editing not working. Howard, Drummond, Gasol, Cousins and DJ are the top 5 centers so far. If you count Davis he's 2.

Chronz
01-08-2014, 03:17 AM
Why is DJ above Hibbert?? Oh right, WARP ignores defense.

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 03:41 AM
Chronz do you think Hibbert's defensive edge makes up 5 rpg and significantly better efficiency? Hibbert is a pretty inefficient chucker on offense and rebounds like straight garbage. Have never seen a big in the discussion for DPOY average 8 rpg over his career. Especially a 7'2 275 pound behemoth.

Chronz
01-08-2014, 03:42 AM
Went through stats. Only Dwight and healthy Gasol stack up to DJ this year. Unless you dont care about D then Cousins, Pek and Lopez . Hibbert is averaging worse numbers on far inferior efficiency. 8 rpg from a 7 foot anchor? Lol. Davis has been compared to PF's all year , now he's a C? Duncan declined noticeably this year. Drummond is similar to DJ this year, but will be the best center soon.

I thought you cared about D?

Hawkeye15
01-08-2014, 03:50 AM
Sportsvu has Nikola as the worst defender around the rim in the league.

His offensive output is amazing though.

Pek has always been a nice PnR defender, but yeah, at the rim he is not good at all. Offensively, he is one of the top centers in the game though.

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 03:54 AM
I think there may be something to MULTIPLE opposing coaches mentioning DJ for DPOY. Not that he's Hibbert or Howard but don't make it sound like his D is a problem.

Chronz
01-08-2014, 03:56 AM
Chronz do you think Hibbert's defensive edge makes up 5 rpg and significantly better efficiency?
**** yea, the Pacers defensive system is predicated on his rim protection. They are BY FAR the best defense in the league thus far, like its not even close. DJ and Hibbert are both challenged at the rim around the same amount of FG/A per game, the difference is that Hibbert holds that area of the court to about 40% shooting while DJ allows something like 50%. That number understates the shots people dont take around Hibbert. I havent looked it up but I wouldn't be surprised if opposing teams take more midrange shots against the Pacers when Hibbert is on the court. DJ doesn't invite that kind of fear.


Hibbert is a pretty inefficient chucker on offense and rebounds like straight garbage.
Yea but he still attracts more doubles than DJ could only dream of, and he can better overpower the current champion. DJ's best contributions come defensively, that Hibbert outshines him there is a substantial edge.


Have never seen a big in the discussion for DPOY average 8 rpg over his career.
Maybe in the days where superficial averages were the selling point for bigs (like when Camby laughably won the award) but in this new age of advanced analysis, you can have a guy like Marc Gasol (5.5 DREB) take the trophy home, and we both saw how he helped shut down DJ.


Especially a 7'2 275 pound behemoth.
Being that tall/heavy isn't much of an advantage athletically. The best rebounders are typically smaller and leaner. Rebounding is about mobility more than any other athletic trait. Hibbert used to rebound better in the past, but hes focused more on team defense over the past 2 years, which in turn has helped his team and his own defensive numbers. Now focusing more on team defense above rebounding may not be best for every individual defender but it certainly has been a boon for the Pacers/Hibbert. Why you feel the need to emphasize something that has made him a better defender and has turned the Pacers into contenders is beyond me.

Chronz
01-08-2014, 04:00 AM
I think there may be something to MULTIPLE opposing coaches mentioning DJ for DPOY. Not that he's Hibbert or Howard but don't make it sound like his D is a problem.

Dwight really isn't that good anymore, DJ is prolly in his realm in that regard, but Dwight has a much better offensive game.

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 04:07 AM
I agree Hibbert is the better player, just not having the better year. Although even if he IS, DJ definitely deserves top 10 so far.

naps
01-08-2014, 04:29 AM
Pretty awful list.

LOL @ Clippersfan86 and his as usual homerism. Lord if every Clipper was as good as he claims they would smash the entire league!

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 04:37 AM
What did I say that is homering? DJ is a top 10 center this year, bottom line. Not once have I made outlandish claims about how good Clippers players were. If anything I end up being proven right 90 percent of the time. I said Blake and DJ would have great seasons under Doc, they are. I said Bledsoe would blow up and was laughed at, you see how that turned out.

I mentioned the possibility of DJ being an all star eventually and pretty much nobody agreed, now it's not such a joke. Clippers have a top 10 center, top 3 PF, and the best PG in the game. Which pf these statements do you disagree with?

SugeKnight
01-08-2014, 04:55 AM
No Bogut, ****** list

bigmac8675
01-08-2014, 05:10 AM
LOL what a terrible list. I will never take this "expert" writer seriously now. (not that I ever did)

DitchDat
01-08-2014, 06:09 AM
I'm surprised Hibbert is so low.

PurpleLynch
01-08-2014, 07:39 AM
No Pau? Screw that! :D

Swashcuff
01-08-2014, 09:10 AM
Went through stats. Only Dwight and healthy Gasol stack up to DJ this year. Unless you dont care about D then Cousins, Pek and Lopez . Hibbert is averaging worse numbers on far inferior efficiency. 8 rpg from a 7 foot anchor? Lol. Davis has been compared to PF's all year , now he's a C? Duncan declined noticeably this year. Drummond is similar to DJ this year, but will be the best center soon.

You do know Brook has been damn near Elite in terms of rim protection this season right? One of the better defensive Cs in the game this year actually.

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 12:31 PM
Actually yes Swash I remember seeing that, had a bit of a brain fart there. Doesn't degrade my point that statistically DJ is in the discussion. My bad though on listing Lopez out of habit.

MonroeFAN
01-08-2014, 12:43 PM
Hibbert and Pek should be listed higher (or at all?). Drummond should be lower than 3rd.

PacersForLife
01-08-2014, 01:03 PM
Lol, no Hibbert...

Rockice_8
01-08-2014, 01:04 PM
Terrible list. If everyone was healthy

AD, Cousins, Dwight, Lopez are all top 5 guys in no particular order. Then after that it get a bit jumbled.

Moneymatt89
01-08-2014, 01:08 PM
Joke

JasonJohnHorn
01-08-2014, 03:35 PM
I think he has the top four right, just in the wrong order.

It seems like he was just finding an excuse to put Howard as low as possible on the list. The three guys ahead of Howard may be beating him in some stats, but he has a better winning percentage than any of them (they are all on teams under .500).

I don't know how he has Howard below Drummond. Howard's rebounding is about even, as are his blocks, and they both have high FG%'s and aroudn 3.5 fouls per game. The only difference is Howard scores more (he gets more shots) and hits more free throws. And his team is well over .500.


DMC scores more, but he takes 6 more shots per game and he has a lowers FG%, less blocks and less rebonds (though he does have more steals and a higher FT%).

As for Davis... I love that kid, but he is NOT playing better basketball than Dwight yet. He's a better shot blocker than likely anybody in the league, and he's a more versatile scorer, but Dwight's got much higher FG% and is the better rebounder.

Dwight should likely be at the top of the list, followed by DMC, Davis and Drummond (this is coming from a Detroit fan).

Horford and Gasol are out of the running in my eyes, being injured and all.

shep33
01-08-2014, 03:39 PM
Boogie is the GOAT

naps
01-08-2014, 04:39 PM
What did I say that is homering? DJ is a top 10 center this year, bottom line. Not once have I made outlandish claims about how good Clippers players were. If anything I end up being proven right 90 percent of the time. I said Blake and DJ would have great seasons under Doc, they are. I said Bledsoe would blow up and was laughed at, you see how that turned out.

I mentioned the possibility of DJ being an all star eventually and pretty much nobody agreed, now it's not such a joke. Clippers have a top 10 center, top 3 PF, and the best PG in the game. Which pf these statements do you disagree with?

It's the way you go about all the clippers players in this forum. Your posts about clippers players always have that shoving them down everyone's throat tone. And I am not the only one to notice that here.

Oh and in the previous page where Chronz showed you how Hibbert is so much better than DJ (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?850391-Brad-Doolittle-(ESPN-Insider)-Ranks-the-top-10-centers-so-far-this-year&p=27759783#post27759783)you couldn't refute and still went with homer route standing by your claim that DJ is having the better year. You can't judge players by just stats; Until you learn to understand how players impact the overall game without producing high raw statistics you won't ever get how Hibbert has been the better player. I recommend you to read Chronz's post again before quoting me with how you think DJ is having the better year.

Hulk6
01-08-2014, 05:16 PM
Good to see no hate on Cousins, he deserves to be in the top 2 but im not sure DAvis is who i would have above him.

Yesterday against one of PSDs crushes, he posted 35 and 13. While holding LMA to 8-20 shooting, those who actually watch Cousins play no that his D is not as bad as people make it out to be, hes not top 5 in that aspect but definitely top 10.

People will begin to realize how special Boogie is in the next 2-3 years, i compare him a lot to Charles Barkley, Fiery attitude often confused with being arrogant

kylem4711
01-08-2014, 05:58 PM
Good to see no hate on Cousins, he deserves to be in the top 2 but im not sure DAvis is who i would have above him.

Yesterday against one of PSDs crushes, he posted 35 and 13. While holding LMA to 8-20 shooting, those who actually watch Cousins play no that his D is not as bad as people make it out to be, hes not top 5 in that aspect but definitely top 10.

People will begin to realize how special Boogie is in the next 2-3 years, i compare him a lot to Charles Barkley, Fiery attitude often confused with being arrogant

im pretty sure people have always known that hes an extremely talented dummy.

sunsfan88
01-08-2014, 06:33 PM
No Hibbert or Plumlee?

Pacerlive
01-08-2014, 07:13 PM
Manram is that a joke? If anything DJ is top 5 this year. 10/13/2.5/1 on great efficiency and as one of maybe 5 legit defensive anchors and he's "Nowhere close to top 10"?
Just to give you a clear picture of how much separation there is from DJ to Hibbert one ranks 38th in the league for ppp while the other one ranks 188th in the league.

On post ups Hibbert holds his opponents to 32.4 FG% while DJ holds them to 45.7 FG%.

DJ doesn't scare anyone in the post which is why he gets attacked a lot both in the pnr and on post ups and isolations.

Offensively speaking Hibbert useage is around 20% while DJ's is 11.8% so if he had to do what Hibbert does on the offensive end then he would see a massive reduction in his efficiency.

I am sorry but guys like Niko have more business in the top 5 than Jordan.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-08-2014, 07:26 PM
Went through stats. Only Dwight and healthy Gasol stack up to DJ this year. Unless you dont care about D then Cousins, Pek and Lopez . Hibbert is averaging worse numbers on far inferior efficiency. 8 rpg from a 7 foot anchor? Lol. Davis has been compared to PF's all year , now he's a C? Duncan declined noticeably this year. Drummond is similar to DJ this year, but will be the best center soon.

Lol no chance DJ is better than DMC.

Swashcuff
01-08-2014, 07:35 PM
No Hibbert or Plumlee?

Saw you posted and absolutely knew you were gonna mention Plumlee.

sunsfan88
01-08-2014, 07:40 PM
Saw you posted and absolutely knew you were gonna mention Plumlee.
Deserves it. He's been playing out of his mind defensively and rebounding wise and offense isn't too bad either.

Swashcuff
01-08-2014, 07:51 PM
Deserves it. He's been playing out of his mind defensively and rebounding wise and offense isn't too bad either.

Honestly I see Plumlee as a Vucevic with better D. Vuc isn't a bad defensive player but Plumlee is a tad bit better and Vuc is unquestionably a better offensive player.

TBH Plumlee deserves to be in the Andy V, Vuc, Spencer Hawes, Jonas V, Marcin Gortat category more so than the category you're currently mentioning. I'd probably have him right around Spencer Hawes and Jonas V which is below Vuc and Andy V.

If you were listing him where do you think he should go?

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 08:02 PM
Naps where did Chronz show me how Hibbert is having a much better year? He told me that Hibbert was a much better rim defender, which I never brought up to begin with. In fact I specifically said "DJ is no Hibbert on defense", which was me clearly admitting as much.

DJ is a far more efficient offensive player than Chuckbert this year and averages a whopping 5.5 rpg more.

I have every right to think that although one player in general is better/more valuable that they are having a worse year than somebody else. DeAndre Jordan is putting up rebound/block combinations not seen since prime Ben Wallace. Not sure what the numbers show but from the eye test DJ is a much better PNR defender.

mavwar53
01-08-2014, 08:10 PM
What does DeAndre Jordan do better than bogut beside get himself on the highlights.

FlakeyFool
01-08-2014, 08:14 PM
What does DeAndre Jordan do better than bogut beside get himself on the highlights.

Make facial expressions

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 08:20 PM
Flip that question around. What is Bogut better at this year? He probably has an edge defending the rim. Gives up 2 ppg, 3 rpg, 1 bpg to DJ... pretty massive differences.

WARRIORS@GR
01-08-2014, 08:35 PM
Flip that question around. What is Bogut better at this year? He probably has an edge defending the rim. Gives up 2 ppg, 3 rpg, 1 bpg to DJ... pretty massive differences.Look at their minutes per game.Bogut is better per36 minutes,and has better advanced numbers.

sf-fanatic
01-08-2014, 08:38 PM
Flip that question around. What is Bogut better at this year? He probably has an edge defending the rim. Gives up 2 ppg, 3 rpg, 1 bpg to DJ... pretty massive differences.

DJ plays almost 10 more mins a game than Bogut so hes bound to have better counting stats. If you go by per 36 mins stats, the statline is a lot closer. Bogut is more efficient on offense, plus he is by far a better passer and back to the basket defender.

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 08:52 PM
So essentially you admit it's debatable yet clowns say DJ only dunks better? PER 36 seems unreliable for injury prone, older, passed prime players. Highly doubt he sustains over 36, team seems to agree considering with mediocre back ups he doesn't get more burn.

Swashcuff
01-08-2014, 08:53 PM
DJ plays almost 10 more mins a game than Bogut so hes bound to have better counting stats. If you go by per 36 mins stats, the statline is a lot closer. Bogut is more efficient on offense, plus he is by far a better passer and back to the basket defender.

He's a more efficient score DJ has a better ORtg.

I do agree its close. Pick your poison IMO but they both have been really really good. Except for their FT shooting which has been equally atrocious.

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 09:03 PM
I have always been a huge Bogut backer. Just tired of outdated and false Clippers naritives about flops and only dunking

sf-fanatic
01-08-2014, 09:07 PM
I think DJ and Bogut is close. Do any of them closeout games with their inability to hit free throws?

blahblahyoutoo
01-08-2014, 09:39 PM
What does DeAndre Jordan do better than bogut beside get himself on the highlights.

his narrow eyes.

blahblahyoutoo
01-08-2014, 09:43 PM
Pretty awful list.

LOL @ Clippersfan86 and his as usual homerism. Lord if every Clipper was as good as he claims they would smash the entire league!
what are you talking about? clippersfan86 is the most unbiased straight shooter on these forums.
he never defends clippers' players in an over-the-top fashion, and he's downright unfair on his negative criticisms of blake griffin.
i wish he'd go more easy on that poor franchise.

naps
01-08-2014, 10:11 PM
Naps where did Chronz show me how Hibbert is having a much better year? He told me that Hibbert was a much better rim defender, which I never brought up to begin with. In fact I specifically said "DJ is no Hibbert on defense", which was me clearly admitting as much.

DJ is a far more efficient offensive player than Chuckbert this year and averages a whopping 5.5 rpg more.

I have every right to think that although one player in general is better/more valuable that they are having a worse year than somebody else. DeAndre Jordan is putting up rebound/block combinations not seen since prime Ben Wallace. Not sure what the numbers show but from the eye test DJ is a much better PNR defender.

Chronz clearly explained BOTH Hibbert's offensive and defensive impacts. If you keep acting like you didn't see it then I have nothing to do man. You didn't quote him for a reason because you couldn't refute his post.

Here's Chronz's post since you wouldn't go back and read it.



Quote Originally Posted by Clippersfan86 View Post
Chronz do you think Hibbert's defensive edge makes up 5 rpg and significantly better efficiency?
**** yea, the Pacers defensive system is predicated on his rim protection. They are BY FAR the best defense in the league thus far, like its not even close. DJ and Hibbert are both challenged at the rim around the same amount of FG/A per game, the difference is that Hibbert holds that area of the court to about 40% shooting while DJ allows something like 50%. That number understates the shots people dont take around Hibbert. I havent looked it up but I wouldn't be surprised if opposing teams take more midrange shots against the Pacers when Hibbert is on the court. DJ doesn't invite that kind of fear.


Hibbert is a pretty inefficient chucker on offense and rebounds like straight garbage.
Yea but he still attracts more doubles than DJ could only dream of, and he can better overpower the current champion. DJ's best contributions come defensively, that Hibbert outshines him there is a substantial edge.


Have never seen a big in the discussion for DPOY average 8 rpg over his career.
Maybe in the days where superficial averages were the selling point for bigs (like when Camby laughably won the award) but in this new age of advanced analysis, you can have a guy like Marc Gasol (5.5 DREB) take the trophy home, and we both saw how he helped shut down DJ.


Especially a 7'2 275 pound behemoth.
Being that tall/heavy isn't much of an advantage athletically. The best rebounders are typically smaller and leaner. Rebounding is about mobility more than any other athletic trait. Hibbert used to rebound better in the past, but hes focused more on team defense over the past 2 years, which in turn has helped his team and his own defensive numbers. Now focusing more on team defense above rebounding may not be best for every individual defender but it certainly has been a boon for the Pacers/Hibbert. Why you feel the need to emphasize something that has made him a better defender and has turned the Pacers into contenders is beyond me.

D-Leethal
01-08-2014, 10:14 PM
Before Tyson's injury, albeit only a few games, he looked like he was well prepared to mimic what he did his DPOY year. He hasn't really played enough to get considered.

Hibbert could average 0 and 0 but if your anchoring that Pacer defense, your in my top 3 regardless.

I consider AD a natural PF. It really doesn't even matter what position guys are listed at anymore, its an unconventional league but AD is no C.

naps
01-08-2014, 10:14 PM
To make it look easier, if you switched both Hibbert and DJ today, Indiana is not the team they are anymore, and Clippers become significantly better.

D-Leethal
01-08-2014, 10:16 PM
And I am always taking the defense guy with crappy to mediocre offense over the offense guy with crappy to mediocre defense when it comes to the Center position. I can't consider Brook the best C in the game or top 3. After that, I will start to listen to the offense first guys from 4-10. Shame we don't have anyone with Brook/Cousins offensive arsenal with Tyson/Noah defensive arsenal in the NBA today.

naps
01-08-2014, 10:17 PM
Hibbert could average 0 and 0 but if your anchoring that Pacer defense, your in my top 3 regardless.


Tell me about it. It's funny how so many people look at raw stats and claim one is better than the other.

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 10:20 PM
Naps so because I didn't quote or respond to EVERYTHING Chronz said I'm a blind homer who's dodging it lol? More like I agree to disagree on the things I didn't elaborate on, addressed the other things. You're writing a punch of emotional garbage right now and adding literally NOTHING to this thread. Not once have you expressed any actual opinion, but instead chose to call me out personally and hide behind Chronz' post.

Clippersfan86
01-08-2014, 10:23 PM
To make it look easier, if you switched both Hibbert and DJ today, Indiana is not the team they are anymore, and Clippers become significantly better.

Which is why nobody including me said DJ is better/more impactful. I specifically said Hibbert is better but isn't having the best season. There is nothing superficial about rebounding or scoring efficiently. Both have huge impact on games.

Chronz
01-09-2014, 02:52 AM
Naps so because I didn't quote or respond to EVERYTHING Chronz said I'm a blind homer who's dodging it lol? More like I agree to disagree on the things I didn't elaborate on, addressed the other things. You're writing a punch of emotional garbage right now and adding literally NOTHING to this thread. Not once have you expressed any actual opinion, but instead chose to call me out personally and hide behind Chronz' post.

To be fair, you didn't state why you would agree to disagree on the matter and you ignored several questions I raised.

Facts are, NOBODY trusts you when you speak like this:


Went through stats. Only Dwight and healthy Gasol stack up to DJ this year.

So when you say things like this;


There is nothing superficial about rebounding or scoring efficiently.

I dont get the feeling you have the authority to speak on any quantifiable aspect. There is actually quite alot of superficiality (is that even a word btw?) in rebounding and efficiency, they are often a by product of role/teammates/system, all of which can be accounted for to some extent but context should never be removed from the equation. And when your biggest complaint is that an IMPROVED DEFENDER is rebounding less, you know you have very little to stand on.

Again. DJ's biggest contributions come defensively, that Hibbert is a better defender negates most of your argument, I wont be surprised if DJ gets some DPOY love, hes certainly improved quite abit in that area, but I will be surprised if Hibbert doesn't outright win it all. Both the eye test and the statistics back his defensive superiority THIS SEASON.

And I say this as someone who WANTS DJ to improve beyond Hibbert, but hes not there yet.

Chronz
01-09-2014, 02:55 AM
I have always been a huge Bogut backer. Just tired of outdated and false Clippers naritives about flops and only dunking

Bogut and DJ are a good comparison, DJ a better finisher, Bogut a better passer, its just a matter of who you think is the better defender, a very hard aspect to quantify. But that DJ and Bogut are a great comparison is why Hibbert should stand alone between the 2 of them. Hes CLEARLY been the more impactful player for his superior team.

Chronz
01-09-2014, 04:11 AM
those who actually watch Cousins play no that his D is not as bad as people make it out to be,

Those who watch more games outside of Sacramento, and thus have a wider basis for comparison, know exactly why his defense is so poor.

John Walls Era
01-09-2014, 06:40 AM
If Andre Drummond is the 3rd best center then the state of centers in the league is getting bad...

dalton749
01-09-2014, 07:23 AM
drummond doesnt deserve to be anywhere near this list yet

naps
01-09-2014, 07:43 AM
Naps so because I didn't quote or respond to EVERYTHING Chronz said I'm a blind homer who's dodging it lol? More like I agree to disagree on the things I didn't elaborate on, addressed the other things. You're writing a punch of emotional garbage right now and adding literally NOTHING to this thread. Not once have you expressed any actual opinion, but instead chose to call me out personally and hide behind Chronz' post.

What did you agree to disagree and what did you address? All i saw you were arguing with him until he exposed how you don't know how judge players beyond raw stats. Chronz beautifully wrote how and why Hibbert has been a better impact on both ends of the floor this year. But you didn't even touch his post (strange because you were quoting him up until point) went with your homer claim DJ is having the better year because of his stats. Why do I need to re-state something when someone already did elaborate my point and I agreed with him?

So let me guess if you look up player X is scoring more efficiently than player Y and if X is rebounding more than Y, X is having the better year? That's what you call contributing in a thread? Because that's all you have doing here LMFAO!

naps
01-09-2014, 08:01 AM
Which is why nobody including me said DJ is better/more impactful. I specifically said Hibbert is better but isn't having the best season. There is nothing superficial about rebounding or scoring efficiently. Both have huge impact on games.

You specifically said Hibbert is the better player, you also agree that if Hibbert and DJ switched places Pacers will get worse and Clippers will get better right now BUT still you think DJ is having the better year? You are a funny man.

And there's plenty superficial about scoring efficiently and rebounding. You have to take contexts, not just boxscore. Chris Anderson has been scoring more efficiently than most bigs in the league does that mean he's a better scorer or offensive player than someone like Howard or Cousins? You know the difference? Birdman gets majority of his buckets by catching the ball at or near the rim while Dwight or Cousins actually catch ball farther from rim, post-up, shoot etc.

And rebounding? Why do you think guys like Tyson Chandler, Marc Gasol, Roy Hibbert are not dominant rebounders? Because they focus plenty on team defense which has lot to do without the ball. That's how they have been true defensive anchors for their respective teams. And then there are guys who doesn't focus much on defense, and they get a lot of rebounds. So it's contextual. Don't take it as it.

Swashcuff
01-09-2014, 09:34 AM
drummond doesnt deserve to be anywhere near this list yet

I agree Drummond is a PG no way he's a C I mean look at how many steals he gets a game, only PGs do that right. :rollseyes:

If Drummond doesn't deserve to be near this list then where do you suppose he deserves to be?

Pacerlive
01-09-2014, 01:28 PM
Naps where did Chronz show me how Hibbert is having a much better year? He told me that Hibbert was a much better rim defender, which I never brought up to begin with. In fact I specifically said "DJ is no Hibbert on defense", which was me clearly admitting as much.

DJ is a far more efficient offensive player than Chuckbert this year and averages a whopping 5.5 rpg more.

I have every right to think that although one player in general is better/more valuable that they are having a worse year than somebody else. DeAndre Jordan is putting up rebound/block combinations not seen since prime Ben Wallace. Not sure what the numbers show but from the eye test DJ is a much better PNR defender.
Your eyes probably decieve you then.

Hibberts pnr (roll man defense) is 0.8 ppp while DJ's is 0.84 ppp.

And as stated before by Chronz the difference in rebounds is not that signifcant when you consider what Indiana ask of its wings who are great rebounders. This is why the Pacers are plus 4 and the Clippers are -1.3 in rebound differential. The Pacers wings often steal the defensive rebounds so they can run a fast break quicker.

Boguts defensive numbers are better than DJ's but not by a large margin (0.87 ppp to 0.84 ppp) but Boguts TS% is higher and they both have a similar USG%. Neither have the impact of Hibbert though.

cdnsportsfan
01-09-2014, 01:40 PM
drummond doesnt deserve to be anywhere near this list yet

He got schooled hard by Valanciunas last night, who isn't even in the Top 15 on this list, in a match up of two young and rising C's. I sure enjoyed watching it!

smith&wesson
01-09-2014, 01:40 PM
espn ratings are never accurate. take with a grain of salt.

Clippersfan86
01-09-2014, 01:49 PM
Okay so let's talk about one thing for starters I disagree with. The idea of sacrificing rebounds for defense. If this was a thing why weren't Hakeem, Wallace, Mutombo, Mourning, prime Howard, Ewing etc doing it? Defending the rim AND securing the possession have ALWAYS gone together in basketball and to suggest otherwise is a cop out until data proves otherwise. Which as Chronz knows, I'd love to read. Also don't think I need to explain the value of offensive boards which are HUGE.

Also disagree that mobile>size when it comes to rebounding. Maybe that's the way the trend is STARTING to move but outside of Love who's pretty good sized the top rebounders in the NBA are all 7 footers or near that.

kdspurman
01-09-2014, 02:04 PM
Okay so let's talk about one thing for starters I disagree with. The idea of sacrificing rebounds for defense. If this was a thing why weren't Hakeem, Wallace, Mutombo, Mourning, prime Howard, Ewing etc doing it? Defending the rim AND securing the possession have ALWAYS gone together in basketball and to suggest otherwise is a cop out until data proves otherwise. Which as Chronz knows, I'd love to read. Also don't think I need to explain the value of offensive boards which are HUGE.

Also disagree that mobile>size when it comes to rebounding. Maybe that's the way the trend is STARTING to move but outside of Love who's pretty good sized the top rebounders in the NBA are all 7 footers or near that.

Some teams have different philosophies when it comes to offensive rebounding. Like Miami/San Antonio/Indy are 3 of the worst offensive rebounding teams in the league, but they emphasize getting back on defense in the half court set. Both are obviously important but it's all about what a team's game plan is.

Clippersfan86
01-09-2014, 02:10 PM
Interestingly enough Doc wants us to ignore offensive glass too but DJ still gets a ton. Also add Duncan and KG to my list of elite paint defenders who were also elite rebounders. They go together, always have. If my 7'2 280 pound player averaged 8 rpg over his career I'd kinda feel bad for him. I don't think a single all star 7 footer in NBA history was so poor on the glass, if so it's a small group.

Pacerlive
01-09-2014, 02:42 PM
Some teams have different philosophies when it comes to offensive rebounding. Like Miami/San Antonio/Indy are 3 of the worst offensive rebounding teams in the league, but they emphasize getting back on defense in the half court set. Both are obviously important but it's all about what a team's game plan is.
Just to clarify you need to adjust to pace and when you look at offensive rebound percentage the Clippers still rank below Indiana.

D-Leethal
01-09-2014, 02:50 PM
I watched Plumlee last night - dude is smart as hell defensively. Always in the right spot - great positioning. I love that ****.

kdspurman
01-09-2014, 03:06 PM
Just to clarify you need to adjust to pace and when you look at offensive rebound percentage the Clippers still rank below Indiana.

Totally.. I was just throwing it out that while offensive rebounding is important, I think you have to look at why some guys might get more than others

Pacerlive
01-09-2014, 03:29 PM
Interestingly enough Doc wants us to ignore offensive glass too but DJ still gets a ton. Also add Duncan and KG to my list of elite paint defenders who were also elite rebounders. They go together, always have. If my 7'2 280 pound player averaged 8 rpg over his career I'd kinda feel bad for him. I don't think a single all star 7 footer in NBA history was so poor on the glass, if so it's a small group.
The problem with your post is that you come off like you don't understand which one is of more value to a team (offensive rebounds vs defensive rebounds vs blocks).

Essentially you are knocking Hibbert for the least effective thing that helps out his team so who really cares? Are the Pacers a poor rebounding team? Do they need him to get the defensive boards? The Pacers are ranked second in defensive rebound % and ahead of the Clippers in Offensive rebound % (and the sole reason for that is because of Hibbert).

His offensive rebound prowess is what the Pacers need not getting defensive rebounds which is why he ranks ahead of Tim Duncan and KG in offensive rebound percenatage. OF the three I would much rather my Center be bad at defensive rebounding than blocks (altered shots) or offensive rebounding.

DJ is ahead of Roy by a small percentage in ORB but behind Roy in BLK%.

IF you want to pound your chest over defensive rebounds then go ahead but thats a mere stat stuffer worth little value for a center on the Pacers.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-09-2014, 03:56 PM
Those who watch more games outside of Sacramento, and thus have a wider basis for comparison, know exactly why his defense is so poor.

He is still better than DeAndre Jordan and probably at top 5 center at the end of the day.

His offense is getting better every year and he is balling this year. He is becoming a force on that end.

John Walls Era
01-09-2014, 07:21 PM
I agree Drummond is a PG no way he's a C I mean look at how many steals he gets a game, only PGs do that right. :rollseyes:

If Drummond doesn't deserve to be near this list then where do you suppose he deserves to be?

Yeah sure on the list, not ****ing 3rd.

Chronz
01-09-2014, 09:21 PM
Okay so let's talk about one thing for starters I disagree with. The idea of sacrificing rebounds for defense.
There is nothing to disagree with, perhaps you meant to word this differently but players go through this alot. Remember how Blake had the highest D-Reb rate of his career his rookie season, remember how ****** he was in terms of help defense. His decline in rebounding is acceptable because its come with improved defensive positioning, this is something Im hoping Love learns as well. Obviously you would rather have both, but its a great sign when you see players sacrifice superficial averages for a greater team influence.

Rodman was a lesser defender the years he decided to be a rebound hog, I remember Pop or someone from the Spurs calling him out on it. Remember how much of a better defender K-Mart was than Blake back then, did those rebounds really differentiate Blake when it was CLEAR AS DAY how much better K-Mart was defensively.


Just ask yourself, would you rather be a better defensive rebounding team or a better defensive team overall, that should take absolutely 0.1 seconds to answer.



If this was a thing why weren't Hakeem, Wallace, Mutombo, Mourning, prime Howard, Ewing etc doing it?
What makes you think they didnt?


Defending the rim AND securing the possession have ALWAYS gone together in basketball and to suggest otherwise is a cop out until data proves otherwise.
Im confused, where did I say they didn't go together? I think I know what you're getting at and if so, then the data has already backed it, check out what has a higher correlation to winning, Defensive rebounding or efficiency differentials/D-RTG.
You seem to think Im saying you cant do both, trust me, I would love to have a defender who could do both at the highest level, thats what you call a truly dominant difference maker, a guy like prime Hakeem and to a lesser extent Mourning, but when it comes to choosing between the 2, its quite obvious which is more important.

D-Reb are often overvalued because of the fact that they can be redundant. Now DJ isn't the kind of rebounder to get inflated rebounds, sportsvue has shown he grabs a high% of contested rebounds IIRC so if he can get his rim protection to an elite level, he will be a legit DPOY force. But I would much rather have a Gasol type defender who above all else, suppresses opposing teams OVERALL efficiency. We arent debating that having BOTH is best, what we are debating is the importance of both. You can be a HORRIBLE defender with great rebounding tallies ala Danny Fortson, but you cant be a great defender with horrible team defensive positioning. Im not saying you cant be a better defender on the strength of your rebounding bro. That happens too. Its just not the case with Hibbert vs DJ.

A guy like Clifford Robinson wasn't much of a rebounder but he was a great defender for example. A guy like Reggie Evans is a great rebounder with a minuscule defensive impact because he cannot anchor the paint. KG has his best defensive seasons the years he didn't rebound as well defensively. Rodman too. This happens all the time. Its not always a players decision, sometimes its a result of their scheme or teammates but the trend exists, if you're constantly helping out your teammates you're not going to be in the best position to maximize your rebound tally.


Also don't think I need to explain the value of offensive boards which are HUGE.
Everything is HUGE to you tho.


Also disagree that mobile>size when it comes to rebounding. Maybe that's the way the trend is STARTING to move but outside of Love who's pretty good sized the top rebounders in the NBA are all 7 footers or near that.
I dont think thats true, in fact Im pretty sure you're talking out of your *** (as usual). I've seen the correlation to height and rebounds, the optimal size range comes in at about 6"8-6"10 IIRC. Collecting rebounds is not a vertical challenge, its a lateral one.

Chronz
01-09-2014, 09:35 PM
He is still better than DeAndre Jordan and probably at top 5 center at the end of the day.

His offense is getting better every year and he is balling this year. He is becoming a force on that end.

Thats not saying much tho, DJ has improved abit this year. Cousins is definitely better than most centers prolly in my Top 3-5, but thats overall. Not defensively