PDA

View Full Version : The question in the back of everyones mind: Should the Raps trade the pick?



canzano55
01-06-2014, 12:50 PM
This subject hasn't been touched on at any real length but it has obviously been proposed and debated over in several different threads.

I'm not talking about any specific trade of course, moreover - should the Raps look to package the pick for more depth in theory?

Ink, Bramaca and other posters to an extent have made excellent points about how the Raps shouldn't fill "holes" in a team without a legitimate foundation existing in the first place. That would be another familiar Colangelo road the Raps would be going down that pro-tank and non-pro tankers would like to avoid I'm sure.

The flipside would be a short term bet that the Raps are bound to be relevant at the end of this season (whether they're over-achievers or not is also part of the debate) in which case it would be worth exploring trade partners who are "sellers" in the market (making it a buyers market perhaps but I'm speculating) and who are looking for picks. Subsequently there might be a compelling bargain to be had somewhere.

We all know who the sellers are, and we also know we have tradeable contracts to compliment our pick with.

Which is the right path at this time?

DubbyDubbs
01-06-2014, 01:10 PM
This never crossed my mind tbh. No matter what, I say keep the pick. Even if the plan is to make the playoffs.

Bob_at_york
01-06-2014, 01:15 PM
I haven't considered trading our pick for a second. We need to continue to build and this is supposed to be a deep draft.

GrumpyOldMan
01-06-2014, 01:21 PM
I dont see a point in trading a first rounder ever unless you are a contender or you are making a trade that makes you a legitimate contender. The Raptors are not yet close to a contender. If possible they should be trying to accumulate first rounders, not trade them.
I like what Masai is doing. He has a young foundation with DD, Ross and JV. He has all of his first rounders for the forseeable future and a Knicks pick in a couple of years. If he can get a future first for Lowry (either '15 or '16) then he would have 5 first rounders over the next 3 years. That could be a really nice rebuild. Especially if he doesn't tank and can continue getting better. He could even have cap room for free agency by the time they are ready to contend. Patience is needed here. I hope he continues to do it right. That's the way I see it anyway.

Sadds The Gr8
01-06-2014, 01:29 PM
it's not in the back of my mind because I think it'd be a stupid thing to do. Masai won't trade the pick in this deep of a draft. Can't be fooled into thinking we're contenders just because we're .500 in a legendarily weak conference. Yes this run has been fun and great but there's still a like 50+ games left so acting like we're hot **** now would be ridiculous.

it's like people don't remember what happened the last time we won a joke of a division

gwrighter
01-06-2014, 01:39 PM
Keep the pick. We're not at a position to trade away our future.

canzano55
01-06-2014, 01:58 PM
Fair points.

For arguments sake though - say for example there was a real bargain to be had like if Philly accepted an offer of Fields + a pick for Thad or Orlando says yes to the same deal for Affalo (both cases extremely unlikely but part of the theory) would people here still say no?

I'm talking about teams willing to give up solid talent because they're stockpiling picks.

cdnsportsfan
01-06-2014, 02:10 PM
It would have to be something very significant for me to get on board with Masai trading the pick this year due to the highly touted depth of this draft. I don't expect anything that significant coming back for a mid-first pick though - a lottery pick might fetch that kind of return but let's be honest here, this conversation would not be happening if a lottery pick were coming Toronto's way.

killersweet
01-06-2014, 02:38 PM
Fair points.

For arguments sake though - say for example there was a real bargain to be had like if Philly accepted an offer of Fields + a pick for Thad or Orlando says yes to the same deal for Affalo (both cases extremely unlikely but part of the theory) would people here still say no?

I'm talking about teams willing to give up solid talent because they're stockpiling picks.

I would not look to trade this year's pick unless you are going to get a significant piece. Thad or Affalo aren't those pieces. it is not like we are well above .500. God forbid, lowry or DD get hurt next week and we may go in to a tank mode after all. I wouldn't think about trading the pick at this point.

Hazzie_82
01-06-2014, 02:45 PM
Keep the pick. We're not at a position to trade away our future.

Just my thoughts, but I don't know that trading a pick is necessarily trading away our future...

Let's look at our 1st rd history:

Ross (8)
JV (5)
Ed (13)
DD (9)
Bargs (1)
Joey Graham (16)
Charlie V (7)
Hoffa (8)
Bosh (4)
M Bradley (17)
etc....

Which of those players would have debilitated our franchise had we traded them away? I know right now there is this thought amongst fans that the only way to build is by tanking first but I don't necessarily agree. Its not a science, for every OKC there is a Cleveland... tanking is not a guarantee. Our pick is looking like it won't be a lottery pick, so I think we should keep the door open on possibly making a move to improve. I am not saying we should for sure trade the pick, but I certainly don't think its should be untouchable.

mike_noodles
01-06-2014, 02:48 PM
Can they even trade the pick without taking one back? We didn't pick in 2013 so we must have a first rounder in 2014 no?

pebloemer
01-06-2014, 03:06 PM
Can they even trade the pick without taking one back? We didn't pick in 2013 so we must have a first rounder in 2014 no?

Yes, they are able. they just can't trade consecutive future 1st round picks. Now that the 2013 draft is over, the 2014 pick can be moved.

Regarding the pick, I never like to comment on any idea unless the details of who would be coming back are involved. I have nothing against the concept, but I'd probably wait until draft time to have a better idea of where we are drafting and what we are giving up. There is no urgency to get better for this season IMO. Let the kids play this out.

Hazzie_82
01-06-2014, 03:06 PM
Can they even trade the pick without taking one back? We didn't pick in 2013 so we must have a first rounder in 2014 no?

You are prob right... didn't think about that!

B2B
01-06-2014, 03:12 PM
Can they even trade the pick without taking one back? We didn't pick in 2013 so we must have a first rounder in 2014 no?

They can trade the Knicks 2016 pick

For those saying it would be stupid to move the pick. I would like to know how you can make that claim without knowing what the potential return is?.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 03:14 PM
Fair points.

For arguments sake though - say for example there was a real bargain to be had like if Philly accepted an offer of Fields + a pick for Thad or Orlando says yes to the same deal for Affalo (both cases extremely unlikely but part of the theory) would people here still say no?

I'm talking about teams willing to give up solid talent because they're stockpiling picks.

Trading the pick isn't out of the question but to trade for guys like Thad or Affalo. Those are the types of trades that are just depth, filling hole types of trades and doesn't really improve the talent.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 03:16 PM
They can trade the Knicks 2016 pick

For those saying it would be stupid to move the pick. I would like to know how you can make that claim without knowing what the potential return is?.

As pebloemer said above they can trade any of their future picks. They don't have to keep this years pick.

Bob_at_york
01-06-2014, 03:20 PM
Fair points.

For arguments sake though - say for example there was a real bargain to be had like if Philly accepted an offer of Fields + a pick for Thad or Orlando says yes to the same deal for Affalo (both cases extremely unlikely but part of the theory) would people here still say no?

I'm talking about teams willing to give up solid talent because they're stockpiling picks.

I like how the idea involves getting rid of Fields but I don't want them to trade this pick. I don't want them to rush anything.

deaner
01-06-2014, 03:34 PM
it's not in the back of my mind because I think it'd be a stupid thing to do. Masai won't trade the pick in this deep of a draft. Can't be fooled into thinking we're contenders just because we're .500 in a legendarily weak conference. Yes this run has been fun and great but there's still a like 50+ games left so acting like we're hot **** now would be ridiculous.

it's like people don't remember what happened the last time we won a joke of a division

it's a totally different group. This roster is filled with young players getting better, and the front office is much smarter IMO.

If you think our record is win exaggerated now, just wait till the second half when we start playing poorer teams that really start to tank at the end. I would estimate we'll have 47-49 wins. You need to factor in that value of the pick.

would you trade the pick for lebron, of course you would. So it comes down to short and long term gain for the raps.

For me, I think with the market out there with a bunch of teams that will be fighting in the tank war... there is value in trading our pick for a couple of talented players.

Salmons
Fields
Novak
and maybe Hayes' deals can all be used to upgrade the roster.

Yes I trade the pick with salary to obtain Monroe.
Yes I trade the pick with salary to obtain both Thad and Turner.

We realistically are talking about the 18th-ish pick. The two trades listed above give more value than a 18th rookie scale deal.

IMO

LanceUpperCut
01-06-2014, 03:37 PM
People are so set against it but in reality the odds of cashing in on a pick that could very well be nothing more then a bench player is very high. Like someone mentioned it would only be for a big stud no Thad or Affalo types but maybe for a Henson, Monroe with extension or the Greek kid types.

pebloemer
01-06-2014, 03:38 PM
The situation where you are getting young controllable talent with upside is what I'd be looking at if I were considering moving the pick.

Salmons, 1st round pick for MKG, filler
Faried, Miller for Hayes, Vasquez, 1st round pick

Those are the type of deals I'd consider dealing the pick for. Pick is probably in the 15-20 range, so I don't know how much you can get for it (in the draft or in a trade).

pebloemer
01-06-2014, 03:39 PM
People are so set against it but in reality the odds of cashing in on a pick that could very well be nothing more then a bench player is very high. Like someone mentioned it would only be for a big stud no Thad or Affalo types but maybe for a Henson, Monroe with extension or the Greek kid types.

Yah, those are the type of targets that might make sense. Doubt it happens though.

canzano55
01-06-2014, 03:40 PM
I like how the idea involves getting rid of Fields but I don't want them to trade this pick. I don't want them to rush anything.Trading intelligently relevant to what the market is saying isn't necessarily rushing anything.

If we agreed in theory that the market is a buyers market, then there might be an excellent deal to be had. The quality coming back is relative to how a person evaluates it, but like B2B says we shouldn't rule it out.

I should clarify that I'm not suggesting we absolutely move the pick - moreover I think we're on the cusp of a situation where a seller might take the gamble (with 50 games left in the season) that the Raps are overachieving (and therefore might falter later on) and sell high on our pick whereas we bet on the probability that we might be in ECF discussions (in which case having some extra talent might go a long way.)

djsunyc
01-06-2014, 03:41 PM
with the way ujiri drafts? no and no.

B2B
01-06-2014, 03:42 PM
As pebloemer said above they can trade any of their future picks. They don't have to keep this years pick.

Was stating even if they could/couldn't or wanted to keep this years, they have an additional pick to work with.

Everything in trade still comes down to the potential return, people are saying no without knowing what is potentially on table.

Sadds The Gr8
01-06-2014, 03:42 PM
it's a totally different group. This roster is filled with young players getting better, and the front office is much smarter IMO.
that's why I don't think they'd trade the pick.


If you think our record is win exaggerated now, just wait till the second half when we start playing poorer teams that really start to tank at the end. I would estimate we'll have 47-49 wins. You need to factor in that value of the pick.
that helps my point. the east is terrible so our record would be exaggerated. don't forget what happened last time we won the crap division.


would you trade the pick for lebron, of course you would. So it comes down to short and long term gain for the raps.
would never happen anyways.


For me, I think with the market out there with a bunch of teams that will be fighting in the tank war... there is value in trading our pick for a couple of talented players.

Salmons
Fields
Novak
and maybe Hayes' deals can all be used to upgrade the roster.

Yes I trade the pick with salary to obtain Monroe.
Yes I trade the pick with salary to obtain both Thad and Turner.


I'd do the Monroe trade. Philly, I doubt they'd trade BOTH those guys for a mid-first, only one, and in that case I wouldn't do it anyways.


We realistically are talking about the 18th-ish pick. The two trades listed above give more value than a 18th rookie scale deal.

IMO
That Philly trade isn't realistic. But like I said, I do like Monroe

deaner
01-06-2014, 03:43 PM
we should have traded the pick before the rudy trade. that would have maximized value.

Sadds The Gr8
01-06-2014, 03:47 PM
we should have traded the pick before the rudy trade. that would have maximized value.

that would've been a horrible move. hindsight is 20/20 nobody expected this

B2B
01-06-2014, 03:52 PM
Trading intelligently relevant to what the market is saying isn't necessarily rushing anything.

If we agreed in theory that the market is a buyers market, then there might be an excellent deal to be had. The quality coming back is relative to how a person evaluates it, but like B2B says we shouldn't rule it out.

I should clarify that I'm not suggesting we absolutely move the pick - moreover I think we're on the cusp of a situation where a seller might take the gamble (with 50 games left in the season) that the Raps are overachieving (and therefore might falter later on) and sell high on our pick whereas we bet on the probability that we might be in ECF discussions (in which case having some extra talent might go a long way.)

Let me build a potential trade scenario,

Marc Stein put out a rumor that Boston wanted to move Green/Bass in order to facilitate a better tank.

I would offer fillers/pick for Green.

Jonas
Amir/Patterson
Green
Derozan/Ross
Lowry

Pick or Green from the Celtics.

B2B
01-06-2014, 03:53 PM
Amir > Monroe, who's up for extension

deaner
01-06-2014, 03:55 PM
that would've been a horrible move. hindsight is 20/20 nobody expected this

not sure about that. a little ball movement goes a long way and that was excruciating to watch. But in that sense, it would have closed managements direction which obviously they like being liquid right now.

killersweet
01-06-2014, 03:55 PM
Trading away picks has been an issue for this franchise. We are not even half way through the season. Why would we think about trading this year's pick? We aren't a stacked team with assets. One key injury to this core and we can be looking at a noman's land pick. That's still better than being a team without a pick in a good draft. Let the team play the season out. Team is playing great and at the deadline MU can decide what would be better for this franchise (not short term).

canzano55
01-06-2014, 03:57 PM
Let me build a potential trade scenario,

Marc Stein put out a rumor that Boston wanted to move Green/Bass in order to facilitate a better tank.

I would offer fillers/pick for Green.

Jonas
Amir/Patterson
Green
Derozan/Ross
Lowry

Pick or Green from the Celtics.I like that you have the wheels spinning but I wouldn't push Ross out of the starting 5 because he's doing so well there.

I was thinking like bench scoring with a new frontcourt or backcourt player while also dumping Field and or Hayes/Daye/Stone in the process.

deaner
01-06-2014, 03:57 PM
Amir > Monroe, who's up for extension

however you cross value Monroe, he's still pretty good while adding skills and youth.

canzano55
01-06-2014, 04:00 PM
Trading away picks has been an issue for this franchise. We are not even half way through the season. Why would we think about trading this year's pick? We aren't a stacked team with assets. One key injury to this core and we can be looking at a noman's land pick. That's still better than being a team without a pick in a good draft. Let the team play the season out. Team is playing great and at the deadline MU can decide what would be better for this franchise (not short term).I understand the point about how a devastating injury to a key player could change everything but we also have to consider market timing as well (the market won't ever wait for you).

If you were asset rich in gold and it double in value in a single day are you saying you wouldn't sell? (That might be a silly analogy but you understand what I'm trying to say).

B2B
01-06-2014, 04:09 PM
I like that you have the wheels spinning but I wouldn't push Ross out of the starting 5 because he's doing so well there.

I was thinking like bench scoring with a new frontcourt or backcourt player while also dumping Field and or Hayes/Daye/Stone in the process.

Last night we had Amir guarding Lebron because of the size differential of some SF's.

The new depth is the reason the team is currently performing, Ross has earned his mins & will get them behind both players only boosting depth

Worse case, the move opens up the possibility of moving Derozan & starting Ross a SG next to a SF.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 04:19 PM
Let me build a potential trade scenario,

Marc Stein put out a rumor that Boston wanted to move Green/Bass in order to facilitate a better tank.

I would offer fillers/pick for Green.

Jonas
Amir/Patterson
Green
Derozan/Ross
Lowry

Pick or Green from the Celtics.

Hell no, that would be a terrible move imo. Is Green worth a mid to late pick? Probably, but its the type of move that I am afraid the Raps would make.

B2B
01-06-2014, 04:22 PM
Hell no, that would be a terrible move imo. Is Green worth a mid to late pick? Probably, but its the type of move that I am afraid the Raps would make.

Reason?.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 04:26 PM
Amir > Monroe, who's up for extension

I agree that I wouldn't trade for Monroe but I don't know if I would say Amir is better, just different. Monroe is a very good player, intelligent, but he would be a bad fit in Toronto with JV. They are both more of a center who would have troubles guarding pf's so playing them together wouldn't go over well. They are having some similar problems in Detroit with that. Monroe would be perfect on a team like the Thunder though with a pf like Ibaka who is a rim protector.

phoenix_bladen
01-06-2014, 04:28 PM
no

stupid thread

/close

B2B
01-06-2014, 04:31 PM
I agree that I wouldn't trade for Monroe but I don't know if I would say Amir is better, just different. Monroe is a very good player, intelligent, but he would be a bad fit in Toronto with JV. They are both more of a center who would have troubles guarding pf's so playing them together wouldn't go over well. They are having some similar problems in Detroit with that. Monroe would be perfect on a team like the Thunder though with a pf like Ibaka who is a rim protector.

Amir's game is different, IMO also better.

Monroe is talented offensively. IMO a poor fit next to Jonas.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 04:33 PM
Reason?.

He's not much of an upgrade over anyone they have and wouldn't really make the team that much better if at all. It's a treadmill move imo that just wastes time and assets for improved bench depth when thats not much of an issue. When I talk about mangement losing focus, this is the type of move that I am thinking of.

B2B
01-06-2014, 04:38 PM
He's not much of an upgrade over anyone they have and wouldn't really make the team that much better if at all. It's a treadmill move imo that just wastes time and assets for improved bench depth when thats not much of an issue. When I talk about mangement losing focus, this is the type of move that I am thinking of.

I figured you would come with the star angle. As you said he's probably better than a mid first.

I referenced the possibility of this move allowing Ross to start at SG possibly flipping Derozan at peak value.

Jonas
Amir
Green
Ross
Lowry

Derozan after his first allstar game traded into draft for pick/player of choice. maybe packaged to get into lotto.

I just don't see the dead end everyone keeps pointing too.

killersweet
01-06-2014, 04:41 PM
I understand the point about how a devastating injury to a key player could change everything but we also have to consider market timing as well (the market won't ever wait for you).

If you were asset rich in gold and it double in value in a single day are you saying you wouldn't sell? (That might be a silly analogy but you understand what I'm trying to say).
I still think it is early to sell the pick off. Like another poster brought up, this pick would have been worth more before the Rudy Gay trade. Now teams know that raptors have a high chance of finishing top 5 in the east. So the pick's value isn't that great at this point.

Sadds The Gr8
01-06-2014, 04:44 PM
Amir > Monroe, who's up for extension

Monroe has much more upside. I'd take that risk.

B2B
01-06-2014, 04:45 PM
I still think it is early to sell the pick off. Like another poster brought up, this pick would have been worth more before the Rudy Gay trade. Now teams know that raptors have a high chance of finishing top 5 in the east. So the pick's value isn't that great at this point.

All this goes hand in hand. With the team targeting top 3 in the East, what potential value are you holding onto?.

People may not agree with my choice of return value but there has to be a point in which a person would part with that pick.

Sadds The Gr8
01-06-2014, 04:45 PM
I agree that I wouldn't trade for Monroe but I don't know if I would say Amir is better, just different. Monroe is a very good player, intelligent, but he would be a bad fit in Toronto with JV. They are both more of a center who would have troubles guarding pf's so playing them together wouldn't go over well. They are having some similar problems in Detroit with that. Monroe would be perfect on a team like the Thunder though with a pf like Ibaka who is a rim protector.
100% agree but I'd still take the risk and hope it worked out

B2B
01-06-2014, 04:48 PM
Monroe has much more upside. I'd take that risk.

Everything equal, age/salary you trade Amir for Monroe?.

I don't & never would.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 04:50 PM
I figured you would come with the star angle. As you said he's probably better than a mid first.

I referenced the possibility of this move allowing Ross to start at SG possibly flipping Derozan at peak value.

Jonas
Amir
Green
Ross
Lowry

Derozan after his first allstar game traded into draft for pick/player of choice. maybe packaged to get into lotto.

I just don't see the dead end everyone keeps pointing too.

Didn't say he was better then a mid first, said he is probably worth a mid to late first. If you are going to flip DD at peak value and move Ross to starting sg you can do that without trading a first for Green. And that mid first would likely be a lot more valuable included in a trade with DD then getting Green. It's not a dead end, its a serious limiting of options, potential, and a waste of time imo. It would be a move like the Gay trade imo, no real reason for it and just a waste of time and assets to accomplish it.

Jamiecballer
01-06-2014, 04:51 PM
not until i have Lowry's signature on an extension and probably not even then.

B2B
01-06-2014, 04:53 PM
Didn't say he was better then a mid first, said he is probably worth a mid to late first. If you are going to flip DD at peak value and move Ross to starting sg you can do that without trading a first for Green. And that mid first would likely be a lot more valuable included in a trade with DD then getting Green. It's not a dead end, its a serious limiting of options, potential, and a waste of time imo. It would be a move like the Gay trade imo, no real reason for it and just a waste of time and assets to accomplish it.

I don't think targeting playoffs & flipping assets into the lottery without affecting the teams ability to win is a waste of time.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 04:53 PM
100% agree but I'd still take the risk and hope it worked out

I like Monroe but don't think it would work out great and wouldn't do the trade.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 04:57 PM
I don't think targeting playoffs & flipping assets into the lottery without affecting the teams ability to win is a waste of time.

I question it not affecting the teams ability to win and I really think the flipping of assets (especially when talking about 27 year old established talent) has the tendency to bite you in the ***.

Sadds The Gr8
01-06-2014, 05:07 PM
Everything equal, age/salary you trade Amir for Monroe?.

I don't & never would.

hell yea. Monroe is clearly the more talented player with more skills. I like Amir but Monroe is the better player.

B2B
01-06-2014, 05:08 PM
I question it not affecting the teams ability to win and I really think the flipping of assets (especially when talking about 27 year old established talent) has the tendency to bite you in the ***.

None can deny every move has it's risk, including tanking.

My option may be less efficient in the process of a netting a star than tanking (debate-able) but taking the less efficient approach IYO while winning is better to me than losing & waiting to luck into a star.

How many top 5 picks/stars have Raptors landed in 15 years? I know they netted Carter/Bosh who's teams can be both surpassed by this years starless one.

Bdiddy
01-06-2014, 05:12 PM
I completely agree! I have been a die hard Raptors fan since day one and always use them to play online too. They are a solid team that is doing something special this year!

Has anyone joined the fantasy leagues on virgin gaming? I would love to set up a big basketball league with any sports fans that happen to be gamers too. Let me know if you're interested.

killersweet
01-06-2014, 05:13 PM
All this goes hand in hand. With the team targeting top 3 in the East, what potential value are you holding onto?.

People may not agree with my choice of return value but there has to be a point in which a person would part with that pick.

We are still not sure about top 5 finish yet. For all we know, this team can break down and fall flat in the 2nd half. They have been playing at an unexpected level. That's why I said, it is early to consider a trade at this point. May be wait and see how the next 20 games go?

B2B
01-06-2014, 05:20 PM
We are still not sure about top 5 finish yet. For all we know, this team can break down and fall flat in the 2nd half. They have been playing at an unexpected level. That's why I said, it is early to consider a trade at this point. May be wait and see how the next 20 games go?

It's possible & I understand caution/reservation.

You also have to consider the schedule is going to get lighter which should bolster a 16/16 record.

Like Deaner said the longer the wait if the team advantages the schedule the pick is only going to continue to drop in value.

Your same reservations is what teams would be gambling on at this point in terms of value. Play out the season & you might be able to dump fields contract with a late pick.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 05:31 PM
None can deny every move has it's risk, including tanking.

My option may be less efficient in the process of a netting a star than tanking (debate-able) but taking the less efficient approach IYO while winning is better to me than losing & waiting to luck into a star.

As I said I question that this move would really help them in terms of winning. Remember how you bring up the trade of the 1st for Lowry and how losing that pick cost the team a shot at trading for Harden. This is the same thing except for a less useful and effective player imo. That pick is more useful in trades then Green would be imo. Trading for him would be limiting options.

dtmagnet
01-06-2014, 05:32 PM
Absolutely not, I'd only trade it if we were looking like we might be championship contenders and we certainly aren't.

gwrighter
01-06-2014, 05:40 PM
Just my thoughts, but I don't know that trading a pick is necessarily trading away our future...

Let's look at our 1st rd history:

Ross (8)
JV (5)
Ed (13)
DD (9)
Bargs (1)
Joey Graham (16)
Charlie V (7)
Hoffa (8)
Bosh (4)
M Bradley (17)
etc....

Which of those players would have debilitated our franchise had we traded them away? I know right now there is this thought amongst fans that the only way to build is by tanking first but I don't necessarily agree. Its not a science, for every OKC there is a Cleveland... tanking is not a guarantee. Our pick is looking like it won't be a lottery pick, so I think we should keep the door open on possibly making a move to improve. I am not saying we should for sure trade the pick, but I certainly don't think its should be untouchable.

If you've been following my posts you know that I'm against tanking but with that said...If you have good scouting you can draft players that are around mid 1st and have them become solid rotation pieces on rookie scales. I'd rather use the pick to draft bench depth then sign bench depth.

B2B
01-06-2014, 05:42 PM
As I said I question that this move would really help them in terms of winning. Remember how you bring up the trade of the 1st for Lowry and how losing that pick cost the team a shot at trading for Harden. This is the same thing except for a less useful and effective player imo. That pick is more useful in trades then Green would be imo. Trading for him would be limiting options.

You have what I was saying wrong.

-Trading the pick for 2ys of Lowry changed the teams direction, can't tank if you don't own a pick.

-With OKC wanting Jonas (Centre) as return, not drafting BPA Drummond cost the team Harden.

Lowry's Raptors pick was used to draft a C & was the key piece for Houston in landing Harden.

Edit, no your right I think I did mention we could have offered the pick unprotected.

However that team in comparison was expected to bottom out.

gwrighter
01-06-2014, 05:46 PM
Monroe has much more upside. I'd take that risk.

He accumulates empty stats. Doesn't effect W's & L's.

pebloemer
01-06-2014, 05:48 PM
We are still not sure about top 5 finish yet. For all we know, this team can break down and fall flat in the 2nd half. They have been playing at an unexpected level. That's why I said, it is early to consider a trade at this point. May be wait and see how the next 20 games go?

Nothing is guaranteed, but we have played the 2nd hardest schedule in the league. no other Eastern team has played close the schedule we've had to this point. Our remaining schedule is far far easier than any other team competing for the 3rd place in the conference.

In my opinion it would take either a major meltdown to fall out of Top 5 in the East or a major injury or two.

Sadds The Gr8
01-06-2014, 05:50 PM
He accumulates empty stats. Doesn't effect W's & L's.

Did you say the same thing about Derozan the last 3 years? Because I know you were one of his biggest supporters. Were Amir Johnson's stats and hustle "empty" those years too since we were losing? Because I know you called him a top 15 PF.

"empty stats" most overused terrible cliche in basketball.

Heediot
01-06-2014, 05:51 PM
I would save the pick for draft night and package the pick with Derozan to get a potential star. I would target Parker or Wiggins. Parker would give us the guy that can score and may have the potential to be a legit closer. Wiggins with Lowr/Ross/Amir/Val would give us the potential to be so beastly defensively.

MIL = Derozan, our Pick, Knicks 16 pick for top 3 pick and take back Illyasova. Kinda steep of a price and risky.
CLE = Derozan, our pick, Knicks 16 pick for yop 3 pick and take back Jarrett Jack and possible filler. Again steep and risky.

This is predicated upon those teams getting top 3 picks.

Edot: Maybe Sacremento might be suckered into something after the Gay trade lol.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 05:52 PM
You have what I was saying wrong.

-Trading the pick for 2ys of Lowry changed the teams direction, can't tank if you don't own a pick.

-With OKC wanting Jonas (Centre) as return, not drafting BPA Drummond cost the team Harden.

Lowry's Raptors pick was used to draft a C & was the key piece for Houston in landing Harden.

Edit, no your right I think I did mention we could have offered the pick unprotected.

However that team in comparison was expected to bottom out.

The pick is more valuable in terms of potential for trades or draft then Green is and I don't think he provides much if anything in terms of making a winning team.

B2B
01-06-2014, 06:03 PM
The pick is more valuable in terms of potential for trades or draft then Green is and I don't think he provides much if anything in terms of making a winning team.

The reason given for potentially moving him was that he was affecting Boston's tank.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-06-2014, 06:06 PM
Not a chance. Masai scored gold with Faried at 22. With a deeper draft, I trust him to make the right pick.

gwrighter
01-06-2014, 06:08 PM
Did you say the same thing about Derozan the last 3 years? Because I know you were one of his biggest supporters. Were Amir Johnson's stats and hustle "empty" those years too since we were losing? Because I know you called him a top 15 PF.

"empty stats" most overused terrible cliche in basketball.

I never said the same thing about Derozan & neither did I deny it.

Monroe has been the main guy on Detroit and they've been bad every single season. His production has been decreasing for the past 3 consecutive seasons when he's been the main guy. He's not a good defender nor does he have potential there because of his lack of athleticism. I just don't see how Monroe would be an upgrade over Amir. Additionally I don't see him fitting into the style we want to play. Clearly we like to have PF's that can step away from the basket and knock down shots. He's just not that type of dynamic PF that Amir is IMO. He's more in the mould of a ZBO.

gwrighter
01-06-2014, 06:09 PM
Not a chance. Masai scored gold with Faried at 22. With a deeper draft, I trust him to make the right pick.

If the Raps could add a solid bench piece on a rookie scale then hell yeah I'd want that.

B2B
01-06-2014, 06:11 PM
I would save the pick for draft night and package the pick with Derozan to get a potential star. I would target Parker or Wiggins. Parker would give us the guy that can score and may have the potential to be a legit closer. Wiggins with Lowr/Ross/Amir/Val would give us the potential to be so beastly defensively.

MIL = Derozan, our Pick, Knicks 16 pick for top 3 pick and take back Illyasova. Kinda steep of a price and risky.
CLE = Derozan, our pick, Knicks 16 pick for yop 3 pick and take back Jarrett Jack and possible filler. Again steep and risky.

This is predicated upon those teams getting top 3 picks.

Edot: Maybe Sacremento might be suckered into something after the Gay trade lol.

Not sure what is funny, Gay is playing well for Sacramento, in his first 12 games he's shooting 50% on 4 less shots per game. His production across the board is up. You should have heard the interview with the Raptor former assistant coach last pre game talking about Gay & analytics. Nori I think his name is.

Kings are struggling because they are 30th in defence. The team is pointing fingers for missed rotations. Cousins is great offensively but he's a sieve defensively, rookie Mclemore is not great making rookie mistakes & Thomas though lightning quick, a midget. Even Thompson's game has fallen off.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-06-2014, 06:15 PM
If the Raps could add a solid bench piece on a rookie scale then hell yeah I'd want that.

Yup. Even Fournier was a great pick. He has a lot of potential (thought he would've benefited from another year in Europe though) and can be a solid role player (like Delfino/Belinelli type stats).

B2B
01-06-2014, 06:15 PM
Let me get this straight, Masai can spot young talent in draft but he can't spot talent in trade. Were talking about an ability to recognize talent/value.

If he trades the pick wouldn't the assumption be that he values the return more than the pick?.

gwrighter
01-06-2014, 06:18 PM
Let me get this straight, Masai can spot young talent in draft but he can't spot talent in trade. Were talking about an ability to recognize talent/value.

If he trades the pick wouldn't the assumption be that he values the return more than the pick?.

There is risk/reward in draft just like there is in trade. I wouldn't want the team to trade this years pick but I'm not against trading NYK's 2016 1st or something like that. Especially because it's the worse between NYK & Denver's 2016 pick.

Heediot
01-06-2014, 06:19 PM
Not sure what is funny, Gay is playing well for Sacramento, in his first 12 games he's shooting 50% on 4 less shots per game. His production across the board is up. You should have heard the interview with the Raptor former assistant coach last pre game talking about Gay & analytics. Nori I think his name is.

Kings are struggling because they are 30th in defence. The team is pointing fingers for missed rotations. Cousins is great offensively but he's a sieve defensively, rookie Mclemore is not great making rookie mistakes & Thomas though lightning quick, a midget. Even Thompson's game has fallen off.

I mean would they take Derozan if they knew that him and Gay are bad fits together? That'd be pretty funny if they re-united in Sacremento. And I still think Gay's efficiency will drop, not back to the level where he was with the Raps earlier in the year but it will be in the middle of that and where it is now. He'll never be an efficient guy even if he was the 4th or 5th option on a team. I think McLemore was finding his groove right before the Gay trade. I still feel Gay will impede his development.

mike_noodles
01-06-2014, 06:20 PM
Yes, they are able. they just can't trade consecutive future 1st round picks. Now that the 2013 draft is over, the 2014 pick can be moved.



Thanks for clearing that up.

As far as trading the pick... That doesn't interest me unless a franchise/all star type player is coming back this way. Simple as that for me.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-06-2014, 06:22 PM
Let me get this straight, Masai can spot young talent in draft but he can't spot talent in trade. Were talking about an ability to recognize talent/value.

If he trades the pick wouldn't the assumption be that he values the return more than the pick?.

Trade is a 2 way street. You need the other party to co-operate. Masai and spot all the talent he wants but he needs the other party to commit to trading. In the draft, you have all the power as soon as you are on the clock.

I Rock Shaqs
01-06-2014, 06:26 PM
I kept trying a bunch of different trades with the pick and couldn't find anything, only way I would give the pick up is for Rondo or maybe Pau.

Sadds The Gr8
01-06-2014, 06:27 PM
I never said the same thing about Derozan & neither did I deny it.

Monroe has been the main guy on Detroit and they've been bad every single season. His production has been decreasing for the past 3 consecutive seasons when he's been the main guy.
Same thing can be said for Derozan the past 3 years. He didn't decline but his production definitely didn't improve and he was the main guy. Monroe's production dropped because of the poor fit on the team he's on. Maybe that'd change if he was in a winning environment.



He's not a good defender nor does he have potential there because of his lack of athleticism. I just don't see how Monroe would be an upgrade over Amir.
of course he has potential. lack of athleticism doesn't mean you dont have potential. He's clearly a more talented player, thats why I think he'd be an upgrade.

Additionally I don't see him fitting into the style we want to play. Clearly we like to have PF's that can step away from the basket and knock down shots. He's just not that type of dynamic PF that Amir is IMO. He's more in the mould of a ZBO.if you just made this your argument, then I wouldn't be able to debate it. I'd just take the risk because Monroe is a good player.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-06-2014, 06:29 PM
I kept trying a bunch of different trades with the pick and couldn't find anything, only way I would give the pick up is for Rondo or maybe Pau.

Gasol is expiring. You could probably just sign him in the offseason since getting him probably wouldn't change the faith much of the Raptors.

B2B
01-06-2014, 06:30 PM
Trade is a 2 way street. You need the other party to co-operate. Masai and spot all the talent he wants but he needs the other party to commit to trading. In the draft, you have all the power as soon as you are on the clock.

Its a given you need co-operation from both sides. With all his scouting info he will know if the player in trade will be worth the potential players at the projected draft position.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-06-2014, 06:36 PM
Its a given you need co-operation from both sides. With all his scouting info he will know if the player in trade will be worth the potential players at the projected draft position.

Lol it is not absolute that he will know how a player pans out. It depends how much he has scouted a player. It takes a lot of time to scout players. It's not automatic where he can just clear cut say that X player will be better than Y player so I should trade for X instead of drafting Y.

And he doesn't even know who will be in the draft pool so he can't suddenly just make a trade now and say the player he traded for is better than the person who he will draft because he won't even know who will be there. The best way he can make that decision (trade instead of drafting) is once we are on the clock.

B2B
01-06-2014, 06:43 PM
Lol it is not absolute that he will know how a player pans out. It depends how much he has scouted a player. It takes a lot of time to scout players. It's not automatic where he can just clear cut say that X player will be better than Y player so I should trade for X instead of drafting Y.

And he doesn't even know who will be in the draft pool so he can't suddenly just make a trade now and say the player he traded for is better than the person who he will draft because he won't even know who will be there. The best way he can make that decision (trade instead of drafting) is once we are on the clock.

Results are not absolute in either scenario. The point is, it's a weighted educated guess that if he trades the pick he believes the traded player worthy of the educated risk.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-06-2014, 06:48 PM
Results are not absolute in either scenario. The point is, it's a weighted educated guess that if he trades the pick he believes the traded player worthy of the educated risk.

Yea, of course it is. I don't see anyone denying that. So why did you say this "he can't spot talent in trade?"

BALLER R
01-06-2014, 06:53 PM
The question should be would you trade the pick in a package for a player in their 2nd or 3rd year that looks like they can become a star.

Not that this would ever happen but lets say you got trade offers for a package including your pick for Irving, Lillard or Curry. No these teams would never trade those guys but I'm just making a point. You think of every scenario. This way you aren't trading away your future because your getting a young star in return.

Let me say this again NO THESE GUYS AREN'T BEING TRADED I'M JUST PROVING A POINT. Think about that.

B2B
01-06-2014, 07:03 PM
Yea, of course it is. I don't see anyone denying that. So why did you say this "he can't spot talent in trade?"

I was drawing parallel to what you were referencing as benefit to draft.

Noting, the value of the pick/traded player is subjective at this point, it should not have a definitive answer.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-06-2014, 07:07 PM
I was drawing parallel to what you were referencing as benefit to draft.

Noting, the value of the pick/traded player is subjective at this point, it should not have a definitive answer.

Oh, if MU decides to trade the pick instead, then sure I still trust him to spot the talent in the trade. But I would prefer younger talent and best way is through draft. Not to mention he has more leeway drafting than trading.

Drafting a player is probably a lot easier and would lead to less assets leaving the system as opposed to trading.

I Rock Shaqs
01-06-2014, 07:10 PM
The question should be would you trade the pick in a package for a player in their 2nd or 3rd year that looks like they can become a star.

Not that this would ever happen but lets say you got trade offers for a package including your pick for Irving, Lillard or Curry. No these teams would never trade those guys but I'm just making a point. You think of every scenario. This way you aren't trading away your future because your getting a young star in return.

Let me say this again NO THESE GUYS AREN'T BEING TRADED I'M JUST PROVING A POINT. Think about that.

Except the 3 you mentioned are already stars except maybe Irving.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-06-2014, 07:14 PM
Kyrie Irving is an all-star.

B2B
01-06-2014, 07:20 PM
Oh, if MU decides to trade the pick instead, then sure I still trust him to spot the talent in the trade. But I would prefer younger talent and best way is through draft. Not to mention he has more leeway drafting than trading.

Drafting a player is probably a lot easier and would lead to less assets leaving the system as opposed to trading.

We could point out endless pro's con's for either situation.

Bottom line, there's a value point where moving that pick would make sense. People are saying no without any knowledge of either value point.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-06-2014, 07:27 PM
We could point out endless pro's con's for either situation.

Bottom line, there's a value point where moving that pick would make sense. People are saying no without any knowledge of either value point.

Of course there's a point where trading the pick makes sense. Again, I don't see anyone denying that (didn't read the whole thread so maybe someone did). It depends on preference and the situation you want. I want this team to rebuild (best way is through the draft and with MU, I trust him to get a young player) so there's not a chance I want him to trade the pick to make the playoffs (which is what the OP was about).

BALLER R
01-06-2014, 07:34 PM
Except the 3 you mentioned are already stars except maybe Irving.

I know but I'm saying players like that.

Bramaca
01-06-2014, 08:02 PM
The reason given for potentially moving him was that he was affecting Boston's tank.

Just because he is helping Boston to a 30-something win season instead of a 20-something win season doesn't mean he would really make the Raps any better of a team. There are plenty of players that are ok starters or 1st off the bench types of guys that can help a bad team be a little better. Green is one of those imo. Getting him wouldn't really improve the team. I think Salmons off the bench with Ross and DD starting is a better rotation then DD and Green with Ross off the bench. Its a lateral move imo without even considering they would give up a pick.

canzano55
01-06-2014, 08:27 PM
Of course there's a point where trading the pick makes sense. Again, I don't see anyone denying that (didn't read the whole thread so maybe someone did). It depends on preference and the situation you want. I want this team to rebuild (best way is through the draft and with MU, I trust him to get a young player) so there's not a chance I want him to trade the pick to make the playoffs (which is what the OP was about).

I think this post is a reflection of a deep/determined belief on behalf of posters who covet that "iconic player" and that the only logical source for that player would be a draft pick. I consider myself still among that class of thought (to an extent).

However, there doesn't seem to be any concerted effort from anyone by way of making counter points to the "market" argument. In other words: some people would rather not dwell on the "situation" we're in now and would rather keep their sights on long term payoffs. As an amateur investor I wholeheartedly agree with that premise (in theory and application) as it falls under the natural "school of investing" and its principles - however, there are sometimes arguments to be made for "speculation" -type investing i.e. short-term bets with higher risk.

I'll go back to the opening post - is player(s) x (a player[s] netted via pick+ another asset) not more valuable then player y (a 15+ pick draftee) when player x has:

a) an acceptable contract
b) under a certain age (lets say 27)
and c) theoretically fits within the team dynamic and ultimately adds valuable play overall i.e. more than what a 15th pick likely would.

B2B is agreement in theory but poor in application with his Jeff Green suggestion (no slight on you B2B cause you usually have very compelling ideas). But without getting nitpicky about this player or that player, rather I'm just focused about a valuable asset coming in who's value would likely outweigh the potential value of a 15th pick.

Again this argument fits under the investment premise that we leverage any uncertainty about our teams ascension in the standings for the next 50 games in order to entice another team to part with a valuable asset regardless if the intention of our GM is to rebuild or not and whether people echo that intention..

ink
01-06-2014, 09:17 PM
Trading away picks has been an issue for this franchise. We are not even half way through the season. Why would we think about trading this year's pick? We aren't a stacked team with assets. One key injury to this core and we can be looking at a noman's land pick. That's still better than being a team without a pick in a good draft. Let the team play the season out. Team is playing great and at the deadline MU can decide what would be better for this franchise (not short term).

Agreed. MU has proven he can draft.

His picks would have more value if they have a chance to be developed by the system the Raptors have created.

killersweet
01-06-2014, 09:21 PM
Of course there's a point where trading the pick makes sense. Again, I don't see anyone denying that (didn't read the whole thread so maybe someone did). It depends on preference and the situation you want. I want this team to rebuild (best way is through the draft and with MU, I trust him to get a young player) so there's not a chance I want him to trade the pick to make the playoffs (which is what the OP was about).

Agreed. The pick should be traded if it adds value to the team and the future of the franchise. We shouldn't be trading the pick for a short term fix.

killersweet
01-06-2014, 09:26 PM
Agreed. MU has proven he can draft.

His picks would have more value if they have a chance to be developed by the system the Raptors have created.
At this point I think raps are most likely going to end up with a 19-22 pick range (baring any big setbacks). I think he is capable of finding talent there. So unless something significant comes up in a trade, I am in favor of just letting this team play and add another solid piece to the mix. Like Gwrigter pointed out, it would be a nice cheap rookie scale contract.

killersweet
01-06-2014, 09:27 PM
I think this post is a reflection of a deep/determined belief on behalf of posters who covet that "iconic player" and that the only logical source for that player would be a draft pick. I consider myself still among that class of thought (to an extent).

However, there doesn't seem to be any concerted effort from anyone by way of making counter points to the "market" argument. In other words: some people would rather not dwell on the "situation" we're in now and would rather keep their sights on long term payoffs. As an amateur investor I wholeheartedly agree with that premise (in theory and application) as it falls under the natural "school of investing" and its principles - however, there are sometimes arguments to be made for "speculation" -type investing i.e. short-term bets with higher risk.

I'll go back to the opening post - is player(s) x (a player[s] netted via pick+ another asset) not more valuable then player y (a 15+ pick draftee) when player x has:

a) an acceptable contract
b) under a certain age (lets say 27)
and c) theoretically fits within the team dynamic and ultimately adds valuable play overall i.e. more than what a 15th pick likely would.

B2B is agreement in theory but poor in application with his Jeff Green suggestion (no slight on you B2B cause you usually have very compelling ideas). But without getting nitpicky about this player or that player, rather I'm just focused about a valuable asset coming in who's value would likely outweigh the potential value of a 15th pick.

Again this argument fits under the investment premise that we leverage any uncertainty about our teams ascension in the standings for the next 50 games in order to entice another team to part with a valuable asset regardless if the intention of our GM is to rebuild or not and whether people echo that intention..
Would it make a difference if the pick is 19th or 24th?

albertajaysfan
01-06-2014, 09:37 PM
Personally I am open to anything that will make this team better that isn't a bandaid/quick fix.

There are so many variables involved that dismissing it without context is a poor choice.

Personally I only want to be trading draft picks for franchise altering talent. Otherwise I would rather use late picks to add depth and hope for a gem. In most instances I would be against trading draft picks however.

Edit: If we are using it to move up in the draft that alters the equation drastically. I forget where I read it in these forums but someone was speculating about the Cavs being willing to part with their draft pick because of their poor track record in the draft. Therefor making them more likely to want a proven talent over the unknown of a rookie. Packaging our draft pick with a player to move up in the draft with top heavy nature of this draft is appealing.

bartron_44
01-06-2014, 09:51 PM
We may be a. 500 team overall, but since the trade we are much better than that. We are playing all of the best teams tough, and winning on the road. I say we simply play this out and see how far the kids can go. That way guys like JV, TRoss and DD get as much experience as possible this year.

deaner
01-06-2014, 10:01 PM
I think the point should be brought up that we have potentially 3 picks in this draft.

estimate of:

pick 19
pick 35
pick 58

sure there's some talent lost from 19 to 35... but it's only 16 spots in the middle of the draft. Is the talent all that different?

There are benefits to moving the 1st round pick and keeping the second, like the cap hold for the first would not be applied to our cap situation for next season which is about 1.2M

lajoie
01-06-2014, 10:06 PM
Only 16 spots is a funny way of putting it. Thats only like half the league picking in front of you

deaner
01-06-2014, 10:11 PM
Only 16 spots is a funny way of putting it. Thats only like half the league picking in front of you

there's obviously preference of 16 players... but look at the talent level. It doesn't seem to be that wide.

For a player that fits our culture and build, I trade that pick in a second. Masai isn't about short term fixes so there's no need to worry about that.

ink
01-06-2014, 10:21 PM
Agreed. MU has proven he can draft.

His picks would have more value if they have a chance to be developed by the system the Raptors have created.
At this point I think raps are most likely going to end up with a 19-22 pick range (baring any big setbacks). I think he is capable of finding talent there. So unless something significant comes up in a trade, I am in favor of just letting this team play and add another solid piece to the mix. Like Gwrigter pointed out, it would be a nice cheap rookie scale contract.

I'm all for it. The pick would be more valuable as a player than a bargaining chip, that is, a player developed in thus system. Not unlike K Faried. There is little chance of us turning that pick as a pick into anything better , especially given the tendencies they would have developed elsewhere that wouldn't benefit the org. Homegrown talent is the way to go. Also I see little chance either way of picking up franchise talent so go with the solid player in this case.

lajoie
01-06-2014, 10:22 PM
Given the higher success rate of players drafted in the mid to late 1st rounds compared to the second round where most players never see an NBA court, I'll keep the first rounder. Screw the cap savings.

And as someone mentioned before, this team is one injury on the starting five away from having the wheels start skidding off the tracks.

ink
01-06-2014, 10:25 PM
Personally I am open to anything that will make this team better that isn't a bandaid/quick fix.

There are so many variables involved that dismissing it without context is a poor choice.

Personally I only want to be trading draft picks for franchise altering talent. Otherwise I would rather use late picks to add depth and hope for a gem. In most instances I would be against trading draft picks however.

Edit: If we are using it to move up in the draft that alters the equation drastically. I forget where I read it in these forums but someone was speculating about the Cavs being willing to part with their draft pick because of their poor track record in the draft. Therefor making them more likely to want a proven talent over the unknown of a rookie. Packaging our draft pick with a player to move up in the draft with top heavy nature of this draft is appealing.

Agreed. Good post.

btw I doubt the cavs are even self aware enough to know how bad they are at drafting, so I don't see them parting with their pick, at least not for a lower pick.

I can see them pursuing fools gold in trades and free agency more easily.

albertajaysfan
01-07-2014, 12:20 AM
Agreed. Good post.

btw I doubt the cavs are even self aware enough to know how bad they are at drafting, so I don't see them parting with their pick, at least not for a lower pick.

I can see them pursuing fools gold in trades and free agency more easily.

Fair enough on the Cavs.

But the second part is why I can see them doing something stupid with their draft pick.

ink
01-07-2014, 12:42 AM
Agreed. Good post.

btw I doubt the cavs are even self aware enough to know how bad they are at drafting, so I don't see them parting with their pick, at least not for a lower pick.

I can see them pursuing fools gold in trades and free agency more easily.

Fair enough on the Cavs.

But the second part is why I can see them doing something stupid with their draft pick.

I want a top pick badly but how likely is a draft day trade like this? Anyone have any stats on how many are made? How many are home runs?

Huskies Alive
01-07-2014, 07:20 AM
Fools gold is nothing but a forum junkie's concept of the inner mechanism of the league. The reality though, this is a business. The person who is making moves is a paid employee. If ownership dictates that they want a playoff berth just to sell tickets then nobody can stop that drive.

That would include a forum junkie.

Jamiecballer
01-07-2014, 08:22 AM
Fools gold is nothing but a forum junkie's concept of the inner mechanism of the league. The reality though, this is a business. The person who is making moves is a paid employee. If ownership dictates that they want a playoff berth just to sell tickets then nobody can stop that drive.

That would include a forum junkie.

So you're saying fools gold isn't fools gold if it satisfies ownerships short term goals?

B2B
01-07-2014, 09:38 AM
Cavs, king of tank over the last 3ys, sitting 11-23, have just traded 3picks, 2 protected firsts for an expiring Deng.

Not only did they trade several first's, they're attempting to reduce the value of their own current pick with an old/sometimes injured, expiring star.

What changed their stance on tanking being primed at 11-23, having chance at Parker/Wiggins?.

On the flip side, with Chicago stalling after a few playoff series with stagnant play, injury to Rose, Deng contract issues, they have turned over value for picks & could return to relevance as early as next season.

Cavs in comparison after giving up potentially 3 solid picks primed at 11-23 to tank, could likely return to the same hopeless scenario next year when/if Deng walks.


Cavs have just demonstrated the poor timing a tank could have with Irving growing disgruntled.

FutureGM
01-07-2014, 10:03 AM
Cavs, king of tank over the last 3ys, sitting 11-23, have just traded 3picks, 2 protected firsts for an expiring Deng.

Not only did they trade several first's, they're attempting to reduce the value of their own current pick with an old/sometimes injured, expiring star.

What changed their stance on tanking being primed at 11-23, having chance at Parker/Wiggins?.

On the flip side, with Chicago stalling after a few playoff series with stagnant play, injury to Rose, Deng contract issues, they have turned over value for picks & could return to relevance as early as next season.

Cavs in comparison after giving up potentially 3 solid picks primed at 11-23 to tank, could likely return to the same hopeless scenario next year when/if Deng walks.


Cavs have just demonstrated the poor timing a tank could have with Irving growing disgruntled.

Not even that bad a trade though. They are sending two second rounders and a lottery protected first. Also Bulls next year can swap but it is also lottery protected.

Realistically all Cavs are giving up is a lottery protected first for an expiring Deng.

B2B
01-07-2014, 10:07 AM
Not even that bad a trade though. They are sending two second rounders and a lottery protected first. Also Bulls next year can swap but it is also lottery protected.

Realistically all Cavs are giving up is a lottery protected first for an expiring Deng.

Adding an expiring Deng has set them up to lose value on their current pick (11-23), which could land them 2 long term SF options on rookie scale in comparison.

What made this pro tank team jump off the current tank for an ageing player with injury history & upcoming extension while being primed to be top 5 in this draft?.

ink
01-07-2014, 11:03 AM
Cavs are not an example of anything but poor management and everyone knows it. Sad org, up and down.

killersweet
01-07-2014, 11:20 AM
Adding an expiring Deng has set them up to lose value on their current pick (11-23), which could land them 2 long term SF options on rookie scale in comparison.

What made this pro tank team jump off the current tank for an ageing player with injury history & upcoming extension while being primed to be top 5 in this draft?.

I think Bulls are now going to tank in full gear. They are a very smart organization. They seen an opportunity to grab some nice pieces on a good draft and they are going to go after it. If Rose comes back healthy, they are going to sit pretty. Cavs probably have given up on drafts as they have blown so many. How the hell do you waste that many picks?

koreancabbage
01-07-2014, 11:34 AM
Cavs are not an example of anything but poor management and everyone knows it. Sad org, up and down.

agreed. I actually don't feel bad for that organization when Lebron left and was painted the bad guy. He knew first hand on how bad the organization was on putting talent and fit on the roster and now we see that its pretty true minus the talents of Lebron. Why would he go back to Cleveland now? lol

lajoie
01-07-2014, 11:37 AM
Cavs, king of tank over the last 3ys, sitting 11-23, have just traded 3picks, 2 protected firsts for an expiring Deng.

Not only did they trade several first's, they're attempting to reduce the value of their own current pick with an old/sometimes injured, expiring star.

What changed their stance on tanking being primed at 11-23, having chance at Parker/Wiggins?.

On the flip side, with Chicago stalling after a few playoff series with stagnant play, injury to Rose, Deng contract issues, they have turned over value for picks & could return to relevance as early as next season.

Cavs in comparison after giving up potentially 3 solid picks primed at 11-23 to tank, could likely return to the same hopeless scenario next year when/if Deng walks.


Cavs have just demonstrated the poor timing a tank could have with Irving growing disgruntled.

They only traded one first round pick. And if the Bulls don't get it by 2017, it turns into a second rounder.

ink
01-07-2014, 12:07 PM
Fools gold is nothing but a forum junkie's concept of the inner mechanism of the league. The reality though, this is a business. The person who is making moves is a paid employee. If ownership dictates that they want a playoff berth just to sell tickets then nobody can stop that drive.

That would include a forum junkie.

Funny that I already posted this exact point last week. I pointed out that playoff ticket sales could easily drive the Raptors direction. You might be surprised at how little a forum junkie I am, that is if the misdirected comment was aimed at my post. I'm quite familiar with the business and marketing side of the industry/sport, since it's also my career.

ink
01-07-2014, 12:12 PM
Fools gold is nothing but a forum junkie's concept of the inner mechanism of the league. The reality though, this is a business. The person who is making moves is a paid employee. If ownership dictates that they want a playoff berth just to sell tickets then nobody can stop that drive.

That would include a forum junkie.

So you're saying fools gold isn't fools gold if it satisfies ownerships short term goals?

We agree. Good and bad judgements can be made while making a profit. A good org stays smart while making money, especially in a salary cap era that rewards fiscal responsibility.

ink
01-07-2014, 12:18 PM
Adding an expiring Deng has set them up to lose value on their current pick (11-23), which could land them 2 long term SF options on rookie scale in comparison.

What made this pro tank team jump off the current tank for an ageing player with injury history & upcoming extension while being primed to be top 5 in this draft?.

I think Bulls are now going to tank in full gear. They are a very smart organization. They seen an opportunity to grab some nice pieces on a good draft and they are going to go after it. If Rose comes back healthy, they are going to sit pretty. Cavs probably have given up on drafts as they have blown so many. How the hell do you waste that many picks?

Tale of two cities.

Bulls in an enviable position. For their sake I hope Rose makes a full recovery and comes back with a vengeance joined by an elite talent picked from this years crop.i just like seeing good organizations succeed regardless of who they are . That includes ours or any other that builds wisely. The results make the league stronger and the competition better.

B2B
01-07-2014, 12:59 PM
[QUOTE=killersweet;27753533]

Tale of two cities.

Bulls in an enviable position. For their sake I hope Rose makes a full recovery and comes back with a vengeance joined by an elite talent picked from this years crop.i just like seeing good organizations succeed regardless of who they are . That includes ours or any other that builds wisely. The results make the league stronger and the competition better.

I doubt Rose returns to form, his game is based on speed & athleticism. Most likely part of their consideration to move on/get younger.

The timing for the Bulls is what I was suggesting for this team, it's not desperation because they could have traded for a Lowry in an attempt for the playoffs. Instead they decided with an injured star, being capped & ageing this was a point to cash in.

Raptors in relation have a core under 24 progressing internally, with cap & assets available.

Turnover/fit > selling off assets to tank. One is regressing, one progressing. People are assuming the regression would lead to better progression which is unlikely in the absence of a Lebron type prospect.

My earlier example for Green. If Derozan makes the Allstar game this year at 24, if the Raptors managed to trade a mid first for Green in a sellers market, what could they possibly net for Derozan in a buyers market with Ross in the wings capable of filling the SG spot?.

Especially when you consider both Derozan/Ross are better off at SG than SF.

This is obviously an example but hopefully it showed the short term move benefiting potentially a better long term one.

canzano55
01-07-2014, 01:32 PM
I doubt Rose returns to form, his game is based on speed & athleticism. Most likely part of their consideration to move on/get younger.

The timing for the Bulls is what I was suggesting for this team, it's not desperation because they could have traded for a Lowry in an attempt for the playoffs. Instead they decided with an injured star, being capped & ageing this was a point to cash in.

Raptors in relation have a core under 24 progressing internally, with cap & assets available.

Turnover/fit > selling off assets to tank. One is regressing, one progressing. People are assuming the regression would lead to better progression which is unlikely in the absence of a Lebron type prospect.

My earlier example for Green. If Derozan makes the Allstar game this year at 24, if the Raptors managed to trade a mid first for Green in a sellers market, what could they possibly net for Derozan in a buyers market with Ross in the wings capable of filling the SG spot?.

Especially when you consider both Derozan/Ross are better off at SG than SF.

This is obviously an example but hopefully it showed the short term move benefiting potentially a better long term one.^^^What this thread has taught me is that no one really wants to hear that point.

Everyone's fixated on a deep draft "its a deep draft - a deep draft" we keep hearing but its totally plausible that we look at the mock predictions a few months from now and find out that player x designated in the 15-20 spot (our pick) doesn't have the kind of upside that would negate a Thad-type player at a modest 8 million.

smith&wesson
01-08-2014, 01:57 PM
I dont know if I would have traded the pick but deng would have been a great fit on this team at the 3 spot. I think that is one guy who would have made a difference in our play off run

lowry-vasg
derozan-ross
deng-fields - salmons
amir-hans b - patterson
jonas-hayes

I think thats good enough to reach the 2nd round maybe the ecf's considering theres only the pacers and or the heat that would be better than us in the conference.

albertajaysfan
01-08-2014, 08:27 PM
^^^What this thread has taught me is that no one really wants to hear that point.

Everyone's fixated on a deep draft "its a deep draft - a deep draft" we keep hearing but its totally plausible that we look at the mock predictions a few months from now and find out that player x designated in the 15-20 spot (our pick) doesn't have the kind of upside that would negate a Thad-type player at a modest 8 million.

I don't think a Thad type player is enough of an upgrade over anything we have on the roster at the moment. So unless we are getting a talent upgrade I am against trading the pick. Especially considering the solid play from this team lately. Why mess with a team that is playing over .600 ball since the Gay trade for a minor upgrade?

In the offseason is a different story. All teams have more flexibility especially before free agency starts because that is when expiring deals have serious value because they have no effect on a teams roster during an actual season. I also believe the chances of using our pick to truly acquire a talent upgrade are much higher.

Freakazoid
01-08-2014, 10:44 PM
I feel like the smart response would be "if the right trade comes along...". Personally, I think Masai has done well for himself in the latter parts of the draft so I think his pick would end up being more valuable than the pick itself.

koreancabbage
01-08-2014, 11:55 PM
by the way the Raptors are playing, it'll be the high teens pick/ low 20s. I don't think it will be worth trading unless someone is dumping a serviceable star/borderline star-like player on us for a draft pick(s).

Kelly Gruber
01-09-2014, 12:35 PM
Personally I think the team is starting to bond and they should be given the time to grow together. They don't need to trade their first for someone that's going to come in and demand touches right now. They're not going to win the NBA Championship, but they're competing hard. Keep building depth as there aren't any superstars about to throw on a Raps jersey anytime soon.