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View Full Version : Are Elite Shooters underated by most coaches/fans?



KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 07:48 PM
It seems as though elite perimeter shooting consistently produces highly efficient offense which in turn helps produce wins.

Ironically it was the success of shooters/teams last year like Steve Novak (Knicks), Danny Green (San Antonio Spurs), Ray Allen (Miami Heat), and more recently Kyle Korver (Atlanta Hawks) that have led me to wonder if it's possible we underrate players like this. Korver is finally getting an opportunity to start and he's having arguably his best season at the age of 32 and the Hawks are currently the #3 seed in the East. If you look at the success of recent champions like the Heat and Mavericks you will find elite perimeter shooting as a contributor to their overall success. My question is simply:

Are Elite Shooters underrated by most coaches/fans?

ThaDubs
01-03-2014, 07:52 PM
Maybe. I mean 3 point shooters make it easier for other players to penetrate which can open up other scoring opportunities, but I don't know if we underrate them.

Guppyfighter
01-03-2014, 07:59 PM
Yes, absolutely.

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 08:01 PM
Maybe. I mean 3 point shooters make it easier for other players to penetrate which can open up other scoring opportunities, but I don't know if we underrate them.

Then why did it take Kyle Korver 10 years to be an every game starter?

Bruno
01-03-2014, 08:11 PM
championship teams almost always have elite floor spreaders in the rotation. for the spacing and geometry alone, yeah.

Tony_Starks
01-03-2014, 08:14 PM
By coaches no, by fans yes. For instance when you hear fans talk about the Heat you mostly hear about one player but nobody mentions they have a team full of snipers....

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 08:17 PM
championship teams almost always have elite floor spreaders in the rotation. for the spacing and geometry alone, yeah.

So why do you think they rarely get paid/starting jobs/rotation minutes on all teams?

Im_in_Mia_bish
01-03-2014, 08:28 PM
Works both ways

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 08:36 PM
[QUOTE=Im_in_Mia_bish:27727238]Works both ways[/QUOTE

Meaning?

b@llhog24
01-03-2014, 08:44 PM
Yes. Korver is criminally underrated.

ThaDubs
01-03-2014, 08:58 PM
By coaches no, by fans yes. For instance when you hear fans talk about the Heat you mostly hear about one player but nobody mentions they have a team full of snipers....

This

Hawkeye15
01-03-2014, 09:01 PM
there are differences. Curry versus Kerr for example. No way you underestimate a skillset such as elite shooting, which is why many players enjoy 10+ year careers. But you can't just ignore a talent gap either.

I will say, to be an elite team, you need to be really good at basically every phase of the game, so it is necessary to carry elite shooters.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2014, 09:02 PM
By coaches no, by fans yes. For instance when you hear fans talk about the Heat you mostly hear about one player but nobody mentions they have a team full of snipers....

why just the Heat? Show me a championship team the last 20 years that didn't have some snipers

dalton749
01-03-2014, 09:33 PM
underrated if they cant defend a 5th grader like novak
ross gunna be one of the best shooters in the league in a few years

lol, please
01-03-2014, 09:46 PM
Yes, Curry is underrated on PSD. Yesterday someone called him a chucker.

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 10:00 PM
there are differences. Curry versus Kerr for example. No way you underestimate a skillset such as elite shooting, which is why many players enjoy 10+ year careers. But you can't just ignore a talent gap either.

I will say, to be an elite team, you need to be really good at basically every phase of the game, so it is necessary to carry elite shooters.

So what kind of contract does a guy like Korver deserve?

koreancabbage
01-03-2014, 10:15 PM
It seems as though elite perimeter shooting consistently produces highly efficient offense which in turn helps produce wins.

Ironically it was the success of shooters/teams last year like Steve Novak (Knicks), Danny Green (San Antonio Spurs), Ray Allen (Miami Heat), and more recently Kyle Korver (Atlanta Hawks) that have led me to wonder if it's possible we underrate players like this. Korver is finally getting an opportunity to start and he's having arguably his best season at the age of 32 and the Hawks are currently the #3 seed in the East. If you look at the success of recent champions like the Heat and Mavericks you will find elite perimeter shooting as a contributor to their overall success. My question is simply:

Are Elite Shooters underrated by most coaches/fans?

i don't think they play good defence for the most part (Ray allen the exception maybe?) They make the offense a lot easier to run. and pray that the team defense is better than the individual defense of the 3 point shooter

benny01
01-03-2014, 11:19 PM
no they are not overated
unfortunately they aren't usually the best defenders(have NO clue as to why), but those that do everything or did like Ray Allen gets tons of respect,

Hawkeye15
01-04-2014, 04:32 AM
So what kind of contract does a guy like Korver deserve?

a long term one. Height and shooting ability don't die. 5 years, $20 million is fair.

bagwell368
01-04-2014, 08:37 AM
Not clear. However low percentage, high scoring players are way over rated starting with Melo. What a
POS.

KnicksorBust
01-04-2014, 09:07 AM
a long term one. Height and shooting ability don't die. 5 years, $20 million is fair.

What kind of contract does Rudy Gay deserve?

KnicksorBust
01-04-2014, 09:26 AM
Not clear. However low percentage, high scoring players are way over rated starting with Melo. What a
POS.

I think most people would tend to agree with that. However, you should research his TS%. Melo is not a low percentage shooter when using advanced metrics. Hope this helps.

bagwell368
01-04-2014, 10:26 AM
I think most people would tend to agree with that. However, you should research his TS%. Melo is not a low percentage shooter when using advanced metrics. Hope this helps.

I have. When a player plays meh/poor D, doesn't pass nearly enough given how much he dominates the ball, and shoots at a middling level - then it's ridiculous to talk about him as a top 10 NBA player. He's a me first chucker.

Go ahead and make an argument his teams wouldn't do better if he omitted his 5 worst FGA per game, and instead threw the right pass. I don't mean 5 misses, I mean shots that a Coach wouldn't want him to take regardless of outcome.

Sactown
01-04-2014, 02:04 PM
What kind of contract does Rudy Gay deserve?
He deserves to pay the kings a million dollars every time he ****s up the ball movement and takes a stupid long 2...

Chronz
01-04-2014, 02:07 PM
Remember when Korver first got traded to Utah, they went from being a .500 team to a elite team instantly. Sometimes they truly are the missing piece.

barreleffact
01-04-2014, 03:39 PM
why just the Heat? Show me a championship team the last 20 years that didn't have some snipers

2 peat Lakers
I don't think Detroit had any ELITE snipers but I could be largely mistaken there.

barreleffact
01-04-2014, 03:42 PM
He deserves to pay the kings a million dollars every time he ****s up the ball movement and takes a stupid long 2...

His FG% since joining them has been favorable thus far. TOR was probably just a terrible situation for him. He was a promising player in Memphis and showed development.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2014, 03:47 PM
What kind of contract does Rudy Gay deserve?

3 years, $18 million to me personally. But some stupid GM's still go "oh and ah" when they see 19 ppg, despite how he got them.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2014, 03:52 PM
2 peat Lakers
I don't think Detroit had any ELITE snipers but I could be largely mistaken there.

The Lakers started two 7 footers up front and dominated the paint. Fisher, Radmanovic, Metta in year 2, Farmar, etc. But yes, they were like 20 something in three point shooting. You can get away with that when your frontcourt rotation is Pau/Bynum/Odom in their primes...

Everyone but Rip that played for the Pistons was an acceptable three point shooter, even their bigs outside Wallace.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2014, 03:53 PM
Remember when Korver first got traded to Utah, they went from being a .500 team to a elite team instantly. Sometimes they truly are the missing piece.

I think he is the missing piece for my Wolves. If we could add a dagger shooting 3 point shooter to that rotation, life gets so much easier for Pek/Love.

KnicksorBust
01-04-2014, 04:06 PM
I have. When a player plays meh/poor D, doesn't pass nearly enough given how much he dominates the ball, and shoots at a middling level - then it's ridiculous to talk about him as a top 10 NBA player. He's a me first chucker.

Go ahead and make an argument his teams wouldn't do better if he omitted his 5 worst FGA per game, and instead threw the right pass. I don't mean 5 misses, I mean shots that a Coach wouldn't want him to take regardless of outcome.

If you want to keep talking about Carmelo Anthony please create your own thread about him. :)



He deserves to pay the kings a million dollars every time he ****s up the ball movement and takes a stupid long 2...

Assuming you were paying them the same salary, would you rather have a 27 year old Kyle Korver or a 27 year old Rudy Gay?


Remember when Korver first got traded to Utah, they went from being a .500 team to a elite team instantly. Sometimes they truly are the missing piece.

What type of salary do you believe a player like Kyle Korver is worth?

KnicksorBust
01-04-2014, 04:07 PM
3 years, $18 million to me personally. But some stupid GM's still go "oh and ah" when they see 19 ppg, despite how he got them.

Same question that I just asked, assuming you were paying them the same salary and they were same age, would you rather have Rudy Gay or Kyle Korver?

Hawkeye15
01-04-2014, 04:40 PM
Same question that I just asked, assuming you were paying them the same salary and they were same age, would you rather have Rudy Gay or Kyle Korver?

Korver. I think Gay is the most overrated player in the game potentially, meaning, he gets star money to actually hurt his team.

And notice the lengths of the deals I listed. Korver for 5 years, Gay for 3. Height/shooting ability don't go away, and Korver, while not going to help you a ton on defense, or the boards, is a low turnover player who defenses have to account for at all times, freeing up other players.

KnicksorBust
01-04-2014, 05:04 PM
Korver. I think Gay is the most overrated player in the game potentially, meaning, he gets star money to actually hurt his team.

And notice the lengths of the deals I listed. Korver for 5 years, Gay for 3. Height/shooting ability don't go away, and Korver, while not going to help you a ton on defense, or the boards, is a low turnover player who defenses have to account for at all times, freeing up other players.

To me, this is the crux of the issue. Rudy Gay will essentially be making 3x the amount of money that Kyle Korver will make next season yet you readily admit that a player like Korver provides more value. For you, it seems that you tend to believe that these shooters are making approximately the correct salary ($4-7million dollar range) and it's just that the low efficiency players are wildly overpaid. Would that be correct?

I look at guy's like Matt Bonner and Steve Novak who are basically there for the taking and yet when they are in rotations (Bonner with the Spurs/Novak with LAC and NYK) those teams just seem to win. Should teams make more of an effort in FA to sign these players?

Hawkeye15
01-04-2014, 06:26 PM
To me, this is the crux of the issue. Rudy Gay will essentially be making 3x the amount of money that Kyle Korver will make next season yet you readily admit that a player like Korver provides more value. For you, it seems that you tend to believe that these shooters are making approximately the correct salary ($4-7million dollar range) and it's just that the low efficiency players are wildly overpaid. Would that be correct?

100% correct. Low efficiency volume scorers are the most worthless players in the league to me.


I look at guy's like Matt Bonner and Steve Novak who are basically there for the taking and yet when they are in rotations (Bonner with the Spurs/Novak with LAC and NYK) those teams just seem to win. Should teams make more of an effort in FA to sign these players?

They should, but like I said, it depends on the team model. For instance, what on earth would a team rebuilding need to spend money on a sniper for, if they are a long ways from competing, and instead can use that money to acquire young talent to develop? Snipers are more helpful imo to teams that are on the cusp of being really good, or already good.

RiceOnTheRun
01-04-2014, 06:35 PM
Well, for Novak at least, I don't think he was underrated. Nobody would deny he was a phenomenal 3-point shooter, but for the most part that's all he could do.

Like you said, the Heat's sharpshooters make just as much of an impact as the Big Three. Almost every role player on their roster (that played significant minutes at least) shot above 35% from the 3pt line last season.

That being said, sharpshooters are only effective when they can get the shots they need. A guy like Curry is also the main ballhandler and he can create his own shot. Role players like the Heat's have Lebron who can get them open shots. After Lin was gone, Novak had nobody to find him those shots and he faded into obscurity.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2014, 06:40 PM
That being said, sharpshooters are only effective when they can get the shots they need. A guy like Curry is also the main ballhandler and he can create his own shot. Role players like the Heat's have Lebron who can get them open shots. After Lin was gone, Novak had nobody to find him those shots and he faded into obscurity.

yep. Which is why I say a sniper is only valuable to the right teams. What the hell is Novak going to do on the Bucks? Nothing. But, when you get him next to a couple of all stars, and the attention is constantly diverted away from him, that is when his value is found.

Jamiecballer
01-04-2014, 06:53 PM
Offense in general is highly overrated and defense hugely undervalued.

KnicksorBust
01-04-2014, 08:03 PM
Well, for Novak at least, I don't think he was underrated. Nobody would deny he was a phenomenal 3-point shooter, but for the most part that's all he could do.

Like you said, the Heat's sharpshooters make just as much of an impact as the Big Three. Almost every role player on their roster (that played significant minutes at least) shot above 35% from the 3pt line last season.

That being said, sharpshooters are only effective when they can get the shots they need. A guy like Curry is also the main ballhandler and he can create his own shot. Role players like the Heat's have Lebron who can get them open shots. After Lin was gone, Novak had nobody to find him those shots and he faded into obscurity.

Actually last season Novak was still extremely effective playing 81 games with only Felton-Jr Smith-Melo to get him open looks. How would you explain that?

b@llhog24
01-04-2014, 08:07 PM
Or Morrow when the Nets sucked.

Sly Guy
01-04-2014, 08:56 PM
I don't think they're underrated because essentially, they are specialists. There are guys out there who are phenomenal shooters who aren't simply spotting up at the 3pt line. Guys like Curry, or Nash, who are able to do more than just launch the long ball. Those guys deserve the cash and credit, the specialists like Korver, while valuable, will always be relegated to role players, and get the proportionate credit based on what they can do on-court.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2014, 11:07 PM
the Knicks and Nets, even when they suck, are never truly in rebuild mode. They can't accept the fact they stink when they stink. Snipers are valuable as hell, but I can see a team like Philly or Milwaukee not signing and established shooter, instead signing a young player with room to grow.

FOXHOUND
01-05-2014, 02:11 AM
Novak is not underrated at all, look how worthless he is on Toronto. There's a big difference between a sniper like Steve Novak and a sniper like Kyle Korver. Steve Novak is a great spot up shooter, but that's all he can do. I don't mean all he can do is shoot, I mean all he can do is spot up. Watch Kyle Korver, or Ray Allen is Boston more so than Miami and watch how they not only create open looks for themselves regardless of who's at PG by running around, but also how much havoc they create for defenses doing this as well.

How many games last year was Novak worthless? It was a whole lot, especially any playoff game. Novak is an extremely easy guard, all you have to do is put your worst defender on him and tell him to stay close to him and Novak becomes worthless. The Knicks struggles this year have nothing to do with the loss of Novak, and the teams 3 point shooting since December has been pretty much on par with our last season average.

Shooting is an incredibly valuable tool but not all snipers are created equally. A guy like Novak will never be a difference maker on a contender, where as a guy like Korver will help any team with his off the ball movement combined with his sniping, as well as his under the radar passing ability and high IQ.