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FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 03:57 PM
Dude is a stud, averaging 19/ 10 the past 5 games, and 18/9 the past 10 games. The raptors are 8-2 during that span with notable wins against Indiana, Okc, and dallas. Considering how weak the east is, and how much the raptors have risen since the rudy gay trade, it definitely shouldn't go unnoticed of kyle lowrys leadership. He's definitely making a name for himself in his contract year.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2014, 04:00 PM
Key words of that paragraph: contract year.

IndyRealist
01-02-2014, 04:01 PM
Lowry's always been a stud since leaving Memphis. It's his attitude and selfishness that have always turned teams away. Glad it's working out in Toronto, looks like they could scare some playoff teams.

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 04:02 PM
He's been playing well ever since kevin mchale took over houston, if he didnt butt heads withs him, he wouldve been houstons answer at the PG spot. he had one bad year in toronto where he was out of shape and played off the bench at times, but he was still solid with 12/7. He's now in shape and playing very well on both ends.

Swashcuff
01-02-2014, 04:03 PM
This has been said for like 3 years now nothing new here. Hell this isn't even the best stretch of his career. Should be an All Star this year IMO.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-02-2014, 04:08 PM
he is very inconsistent

Hawkeye15
01-02-2014, 04:10 PM
we had this thread like 3 years ago, before he slipped into oblivion again. He has talent, just needs the right scenario and mindset.

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 04:11 PM
he has been playing solid for 3 years, it isnt just his contract year that's motivating him. Either way, dude is playing better than a lot of pgs in the nba right now.

Other than chris paul, tony parker, stephen curry, and damian lillard, he should be at least from the range 10-15

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 04:22 PM
Tony parker
Russel Westbrook
Chris Paul
Stephen Curry
Damian Lillard
John wall
Jeff Teague
Ty Lawson
Eric Bledsoe
MCW
Kyrie Irving
Kyle Lowry
Isiah Thomas
Brandon Jennings
Kemba Walker


Edit: oh I forgot about Isiah thomas, the kings have been playing better as of late, I shouldve added him to the list. I'd probably swap out kemba

No deron williams, derrick Rose is out for the season.
I'd at least put him as 13th

Swashcuff
01-02-2014, 04:43 PM
Teague is getting extremely overrated this season. Lowry is better than him IMO. Isaiah Thomas should also be in the mix. 21 and 8 in his 12 games as a starter with way above average efficiency. He's basically putting up Damian Lillard numbers with better play making.

cdnsportsfan
01-02-2014, 04:56 PM
Key words of that paragraph: contract year.

That's definitely important, but Gay was also making it difficult for Lowry so until he left town we couldn't see what Lowry, who arrived in shape this season and intent on earning his next contract, really looked like. He's definitely on fire right now and looks like an all star candidate, but as others have said he's been known as a good player for a while now. His attitude, combined with injuries, has been what has held him back. If he can manage to keep both of those things in check though he certainly has the tools to be a very solid PG in the league.

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 05:13 PM
I think teague is fine where he's at, he's averaging like 23/9 the past 5 games and his team has a winning record and al horford is down and he continues to lead them.

zn23
01-02-2014, 05:19 PM
Lowry has had an excellent year. Whether that's due to it being a contract year or not who knows, but he's always been a solid PG. This year he's taking his game to another level. He's playing like a top 10 point guard right now. I think the Raptors have to strongly consider resigning him.

TheNumber37
01-02-2014, 05:24 PM
Lowry goes for stretches as a top 10 PG. BUT, never a top 5... that's worth noting.

beasted86
01-02-2014, 05:28 PM
Lowry's always been a stud since leaving Memphis. It's his attitude and selfishness that have always turned teams away. Glad it's working out in Toronto

Agreed with everything..... until here:


looks like they could scare some playoff teams.
:rimshot:

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 05:32 PM
Agreed with everything..... until here:


:rimshot:

welll they just beat indiana. and they beat okc a couple weeks ago.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2014, 06:10 PM
Bottom line is we've seen this story with him before. He wows you for stretches. Plays great enough to fool you into thinking he's your franchise PG, give him a nice lil contract, then goes back to slacking and screwing off.

He's decent, I'd invest a couple years at a modest price in him but not much beyond that....

Jamiecballer
01-02-2014, 06:15 PM
Bottom line is we've seen this story with him before. He wows you for stretches. Plays great enough to fool you into thinking he's your franchise PG, give him a nice lil contract, then goes back to slacking and screwing off.

He's decent, I'd invest a couple years at a modest price in him but not much beyond that....
You'd much rather have Jennings if I remember correctly...

beasted86
01-02-2014, 06:16 PM
welll they just beat indiana. and they beat okc a couple weeks ago.

But what matters is they are the Raptors.

smith&wesson
01-02-2014, 06:29 PM
But what matters is they are the Raptors.

say what you want, but they have been playing hard and have looked great post rudy gay trade. they won like 9 of the last 12 games or something since gay was traded.

smith&wesson
01-02-2014, 06:33 PM
if people dont remember correctly, lowry looked like an all star in houston before he went down with an injury.. last season he mostly came off the bench for calderon and was injured. .

I dont think he has emerged or anything, just healthy in a contract year. kind of expected. But! i will give him credit he has been really good as of late, leading the raptors.

bucketss
01-02-2014, 07:00 PM
Bottom line is we've seen this story with him before. He wows you for stretches. Plays great enough to fool you into thinking he's your franchise PG, give him a nice lil contract, then goes back to slacking and screwing off.

He's decent, I'd invest a couple years at a modest price in him but not much beyond that....

he doesn't slack off , he gets injured.

ACanadian
01-02-2014, 07:06 PM
Lowry's always been a stud since leaving Memphis. It's his attitude and selfishness that have always turned teams away. Glad it's working out in Toronto, looks like they could scare some playoff teams.

I don't remember the time I last heard that last sentence or it equivalence. :/

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 07:13 PM
well Kyle has never had a big contract before. I think since there's not much competition with contracts being handed out to pgs right now for the raptors to offer a 4 year 40mil contract.

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 07:14 PM
he doesn't slack off , he gets injured.

this.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2014, 07:14 PM
he doesn't slack off , he gets injured.

In part because he's been known to come into camp out of shape, minus this year when the money is on the line. Big surprise....

siix
01-02-2014, 07:15 PM
i could easily see the raptors making in the second round of the playoffs

Tony_Starks
01-02-2014, 07:54 PM
You'd much rather have Jennings if I remember correctly...

Jennings is his typical 18 and 8 while Kyle is 16 and 7 having the season of his life so I fail to see why that should be a big deal...

But to answer your question, yes sir I prefer Jennings.

BHF
01-02-2014, 08:09 PM
Bottom line is we've seen this story with him before. He wows you for stretches. Plays great enough to fool you into thinking he's your franchise PG, give him a nice lil contract, then goes back to slacking and screwing off.

He's decent, I'd invest a couple years at a modest price in him but not much beyond that....

Where do you come up with this crap? LOL

koreancabbage
01-02-2014, 08:53 PM
welll they just beat indiana. and they beat okc a couple weeks ago.

oh come on, lets be serious here. facepalm

koreancabbage
01-02-2014, 08:55 PM
Jennings is his typical 18 and 8 while Kyle is 16 and 7 having the season of his life so I fail to see why that should be a big deal...

But to answer your question, yes sir I prefer Jennings.

having a pg shooting under 40, turnover prone, and can't play defense? yup Brandon Jennings is a PG for a championship team, whether off the bench or a starter.... please - Brandon Jennings plays AVERAGE on one side of the floor and horrible defensively.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2014, 09:08 PM
having a pg shooting under 40, turnover prone, and can't play defense? yup Brandon Jennings is a PG for a championship team, whether off the bench or a starter.... please - Brandon Jennings plays AVERAGE on one side of the floor and horrible defensively.

Last I checked the Raptors are far from championship caliber and Lowrys D doesn't exactly set the world on fire.

But I get it, psd hates Jennings. Blah blah blah.... I heard the same garbage regurgitated for years about Monta and look at him now. It's all about being in the right situation....

zn23
01-02-2014, 09:44 PM
Last I checked the Raptors are far from championship caliber and Lowrys D doesn't exactly set the world on fire.

But I get it, psd hates Jennings. Blah blah blah.... I heard the same garbage regurgitated for years about Monta and look at him now. It's all about being in the right situation....

What's so special about him in Dallas? He's playing like he always does.

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 10:55 PM
oh come on, lets be serious here. facepalm

I am being serious here. A heat fan Laughed in regards to the raptors possibly surprising contending teams.
I definitely did not see such wins coming. Did you? therefore they were surprising, and they def caught these contenders off-guard, or they'd still be able to pull away with the win.

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 10:56 PM
Jennings chucks way too much. If Lowry shot as much as Jennings he'd get 20 pts and the raptors would lose, just like the pistons are right now/

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 11:05 PM
LAST 10 GAMES

JENNINGS

Team record during the strech: 4-6
3 of those teams are over .500

SPLITS GP MPG FG% RPG APG BLKPG STPG PFPG PPG
Last 10 Games 10 36.0 .371 3.2 9.2 0.1 1.0 2.1 17.3

LOWRY

GP MPG FG% RPG APG BLKPG STPG PFPG PPG
10 36.7 .431 4.6 8.9 0.2 1.7 2.8 17.7

Team went 8-2 during that stretch
4 of those teams are over .500

Lowry is more efficient, the better defender, and his team is winning.
I would def put him higher than Jennings

BHF
01-02-2014, 11:08 PM
Why compare Jennings with Lowry its not even close you don't even need to look at the numbers. Only a homer would think Jennings is better.

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 11:18 PM
Why compare Jennings with Lowry its not even close you don't even need to look at the numbers. Only a homer would think Jennings is better.

well to be fair, It's the fact that Jennings has had more consistency over his career than lowry, which is why it's not really a homer thing to say jennings is better, which is why some may think jennings is still better.

LanceUpperCut
01-02-2014, 11:26 PM
Discrediting someone cause their in there contract year is so stupid, people think players actually morph into a superior player cause there playing for more money. Lowry has always been good when healthy.

bucketss
01-02-2014, 11:34 PM
Last I checked the Raptors are far from championship caliber and Lowrys D doesn't exactly set the world on fire.

But I get it, psd hates Jennings. Blah blah blah.... I heard the same garbage regurgitated for years about Monta and look at him now. It's all about being in the right situation....

LOL lowry is a great defender, i think you like jennings because he reminds you of kobe....

Chrisclover
01-02-2014, 11:50 PM
:rimshot:FYI, at the beginning of last season, he was also so fantastic and unstoppable, but later he got hurt and that was the end of it :facepalm:
Man, if he was more healthy and sturdy, he would have signed a big contract before. For now, he should take care of his body, otherwise the big time contract would say goodbye to him

alexander_37
01-03-2014, 12:19 AM
What makes you think he isn't he was the best defensive point guard for like 2 years and was an all star caliber player in Houston.

koreancabbage
01-03-2014, 12:48 AM
Last I checked the Raptors are far from championship caliber and Lowrys D doesn't exactly set the world on fire.

But I get it, psd hates Jennings. Blah blah blah.... I heard the same garbage regurgitated for years about Monta and look at him now. It's all about being in the right situation....

Just b/c the Raps are not talented enough doesn't mean Lowry isn't a good PG.

I don't get the love for Ellis. nothing special. Ellis is a system player that needs to be in a system where he doesn't have a free will to shoot and keep all his shots in check.

WES KOAST
01-03-2014, 01:25 AM
he was legit in Houston b4 he got hurt

zn23
01-03-2014, 02:25 AM
well to be fair, It's the fact that Jennings has had more consistency over his career than lowry, which is why it's not really a homer thing to say jennings is better, which is why some may think jennings is still better.

But he hasn't... have you checked the WS/48?

Lowry the last 3 seasons:

11-12: .156
12-13: .133
13-14: .197

Jennings last 3 seasons:

11-12: .114
12-13: .096
13-14: .088

Lowry is having a really good year, a better year than Jennings has ever had. Jennings is just doing what he always does. Which is play average defense, chuck up a bunch of low percentage shots (shooting 39%) and turn the ball over.

I'd rather have Lowry.

RipCity32
01-03-2014, 02:51 AM
Jennings has been pretty good running the offense. He's hasn't been chucking until we can't get nothing going offensively. He's been looking for his teammates first but he's just a inefficient scorer that at times can get really hot. He's been dishing out assists for us though. Jennings defense is what holds him back from allstar status in my opinion. His D is real bad.

bagwell368
01-03-2014, 06:08 AM
What makes you think he isn't he was the best defensive point guard for like 2 years and was an all star caliber player in Houston.

His last year in Houston he was very good, but before that - all the way back to his start in the NBA? No.

However his last 3 seasons he's easily outplayed Rondo's last 3 seasons, and is clearly a top 5 PG so far this season.

pebloemer
01-03-2014, 09:21 AM
But what matters is they are the Raptors.

There is a Heat/Raptor's game coming up isn't there? ;)

Sly Guy
01-03-2014, 11:20 AM
There is a Heat/Raptor's game coming up isn't there? ;)

lol.....I love the shots being fired in this thread. Keep 'em coming! The way he's/we've been playing speaks for itself, let the rest of the NBA forum keep turning a blind eye.

pebloemer
01-03-2014, 11:42 AM
lol.....I love the shots being fired in this thread. Keep 'em coming! The way he's/we've been playing speaks for itself, let the rest of the NBA forum keep turning a blind eye.

In terms of "putting a scare" into Pacers or the Heat, I don't expect for a second that either teams are remotely scared of the Raptors. The sample size of this strong play is still very small considering the success of those two teams. I'm certainly not firing any shots, although I am greatly looking forward to Sunday's game. It's a really fun team to watch these days. And regarding the thread, Lowry is a huge reason for it. We've seen spurts like this from him before, the question now is; how long can he maintain it?

GMpunk
01-03-2014, 11:58 AM
I think at 8-9m and not bein the focus of a team.... the guy is worth it

bagwell368
01-03-2014, 12:23 PM
LAST 10 GAMES

JENNINGS

Team record during the strech: 4-6
3 of those teams are over .500

SPLITS GP MPG FG% RPG APG BLKPG STPG PFPG PPG
Last 10 Games 10 36.0 .371 3.2 9.2 0.1 1.0 2.1 17.3

LOWRY

GP MPG FG% RPG APG BLKPG STPG PFPG PPG
10 36.7 .431 4.6 8.9 0.2 1.7 2.8 17.7

Team went 8-2 during that stretch
4 of those teams are over .500

Lowry is more efficient, the better defender, and his team is winning.
I would def put him higher than Jennings

This. Anyone that thinks Jennings is better now or over the past 3 seasons has got basically zero behind them.

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 12:31 PM
His last year in Houston he was very good, but before that - all the way back to his start in the NBA? No.

However his last 3 seasons he's easily outplayed Rondo's last 3 seasons, and is clearly a top 5 PG so far this season.

This is what you call speaking without thinking.

Chris Paul
Stephen Curry
Tony Parker
Russell Westbrook
Damian Lillard
John Wall

Those are the top 6 with Kyrie Irving, Mike Conley, Ty Lawson, Jrue Holiday rounding out the top 10. You can make a case today for borderline top 10 the way he is playing but not top 5.

Swashcuff
01-03-2014, 12:43 PM
This is what you call speaking without thinking.

Chris Paul
Stephen Curry
Tony Parker
Russell Westbrook
Damian Lillard
John Wall

Those are the top 6 with Kyrie Irving, Mike Conley, Ty Lawson, Jrue Holiday rounding out the top 10. You can make a case today for borderline top 10 the way he is playing but not top 5.

Love me some Jrue but TBH THIS season I got Goran and Eric ahead of him. Isaiah Thomas is also a player not getting any mention but since he's become a starter he's basically been putting up Damian Lillard numbers and no one's talking about it.

Fully agree though as much as I like Lowry he's no where close to being a top 5 PG this season. I do think he should be an all star in the East however.

Jamiecballer
01-03-2014, 12:47 PM
Kyle Lowry when his head is right is very good at basketball. Brandon Jennings on the other hand is bad at basketball no matter where his head is.

Jamiecballer
01-03-2014, 12:52 PM
His last year in Houston he was very good, but before that - all the way back to his start in the NBA? No.

However his last 3 seasons he's easily outplayed Rondo's last 3 seasons, and is clearly a top 5 PG so far this season.

I agree. Factoring everything he's top 5 as well.

Tony_Starks
01-03-2014, 12:58 PM
Jennings has been pretty good running the offense. He's hasn't been chucking until we can't get nothing going offensively. He's been looking for his teammates first but he's just a inefficient scorer that at times can get really hot. He's been dishing out assists for us though. Jennings defense is what holds him back from allstar status in my opinion. His D is real bad.

I'm really bewildered by Mo Cheeks offense, or lack thereof. It's basically throw it to Dre, throw it to Monroe, give it to Josh, or screw it Jennings just go one on one. With their talent and how pathetic the east is they should have a better record....

Jamiecballer
01-03-2014, 01:03 PM
I'm really bewildered by Mo Cheeks offense, or lack thereof. It's basically throw it to Dre, throw it to Monroe, give it to Josh, or screw it Jennings just go one on one. With their talent and how pathetic the east is they should have a better record....
I gotta tell you, Raptor fans were saying exactly the same things about Casey until Rudy Gay was traded. Its ultimately about the players.

Swashcuff
01-03-2014, 01:09 PM
I agree. Factoring everything he's top 5 as well.

What makes Lowry a better player than Mike Conley? He's a very solid all round PG. Scores, passes, defends, shoots and is a solid leader at the PG.

Also could you list the other 4 PGs in your top 5?

RipCity32
01-03-2014, 01:12 PM
I'm really bewildered by Mo Cheeks offense, or lack thereof. It's basically throw it to Dre, throw it to Monroe, give it to Josh, or screw it Jennings just go one on one. With their talent and how pathetic the east is they should have a better record....

Starting 3 bigs is not going to work. outside of Jennings and Singler we can't get any kind of outside scoring. If we were to bring either Monroe or Smith off the bench it would look a lot better. Defensively it's a mess, I thought Smith was a better perimeter defender than he is.

waveycrockett
01-03-2014, 01:23 PM
Starting 3 bigs is not going to work. outside of Jennings and Singler we can't get any kind of outside scoring. If we were to bring either Monroe or Smith off the bench it would look a lot better. Defensively it's a mess, I thought Smith was a better perimeter defender than he is.
Yea you can tell Smith doesn't have the mobility that he used to. His knees have taken a pounding. Think he's going to end up Gerald Wallace 2.0 very soon.

Chronz
01-03-2014, 01:25 PM
Offense hasn't even been the Pistons problem, not compared to that D.

Expected more of Smoove

jerellh528
01-03-2014, 01:29 PM
Never was a big fan of Lowry.

waveycrockett
01-03-2014, 01:39 PM
In hindsight Nets and Knicks look foolish not giving up a 1st for this guy.

RipCity32
01-03-2014, 01:45 PM
Offense hasn't even been the Pistons problem, not compared to that D.

Expected more of Smoove

Smith really pisses me off. He could be such a good player. Every now and then when he plays the way he should he looks like a top ten player but will then come out the next game and show you exactly why he can be a complete cancer to your team. He really does have so much talent but if he hasn't got it together yet he probably never will.

waveycrockett
01-03-2014, 01:54 PM
Smith really pisses me off. He could be such a good player. Every now and then when he plays the way he should he looks like a top ten player but will then come out the next game and show you exactly why he can be a complete cancer to your team. He really does have so much talent but if he hasn't got it together yet he probably never will.


Smith is 28. He is what he is. It's going to be nothing but down hill from here. He is Gerald Wallace 2.0. A guy who by 30 is washed because he relied completely on his athleticism during his prime and never developed any fundamentals.

MonroeFAN
01-03-2014, 01:55 PM
Lowry has always been able to string together 5-10 good games in a row.

RipCity32
01-03-2014, 01:57 PM
Smith is 28. He is what he is. It's going to be nothing but down hill from here. He is Gerald Wallace 2.0. A guy who by 30 is washed because he relied completely on his athleticism during his prime and never developed any fundamentals.

Agreed, What a waste of talent. Dumars probably gave up Monroe over him too unfortunately

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 02:01 PM
I agree. Factoring everything he's top 5 as well.


Smith is 28. He is what he is. It's going to be nothing but down hill from here. He is Gerald Wallace 2.0. A guy who by 30 is washed because he relied completely on his athleticism during his prime and never developed any fundamentals.

That actually could be spot-on. I haven't seen enough of him this year to back it up but the stats certainly support you. He's got some of the lowest numbers of his career across the board and it's not like he ever learned how to shoot or post anybody up. I'll have to watch some more Pistons games. The bizarre part about that situation is that they will sometimes sit all 3 of them when theoretically there is your 96 frontcourt minutes. Too many coaches don't have the stones to send players to the bench.

Jamiecballer
01-03-2014, 02:57 PM
What makes Lowry a better player than Mike Conley? He's a very solid all round PG. Scores, passes, defends, shoots and is a solid leader at the PG.
most years? not a whole lot, but this year i'll take the more efficient offense from Lowry and the fact that he can be a force on the boards as well.


Also could you list the other 4 PGs in your top 5?

Paul
Curry

and then Lowry is somewhere in the middle of this mess..

Lowry
Westbrook
Lillard
Lawson
Wall
Parker
Holiday
Conley

because i hate point guards who take a lot of shots, for me, he's near the top of that second list. it depends on what you think the PG's primary role is, i suppose.

waveycrockett
01-03-2014, 03:02 PM
most years? not a whole lot, but this year i'll take the more efficient offense from Lowry and the fact that he can be a force on the boards as well.



Paul
Curry

and then Lowry is somewhere in the middle of this mess..

Lowry
Westbrook
Lillard
Lawson
Wall
Parker
Holiday
Conley

because i hate point guards who take a lot of shots, for me, he's near the top of that second list. it depends on what you think the PG's primary role is, i suppose.

yea no way Lowry is THAT good. There are at least 5-6 guys who are well above him not including CP3 and Curry. I think Lowry is a fringe top-10 PG that has been underrated for years but lets not get crazy.

BKLYNpigeon
01-03-2014, 03:10 PM
Lakers were stupid in trading TWO 1st and 2nd round picks for Steve Nash. they could have had Lowery for just a 1st round pick.

ghettosean
01-03-2014, 03:13 PM
Lowry is a top 10 pg in the league no doubt!

ghettosean
01-03-2014, 03:15 PM
Lakers were stupid in trading TWO 1st and 2nd round picks for Steve Nash. they could have had Lowery for just a 1st round pick.

So could the knicks to be fair while dumping Felton on the Raps

Tony_Starks
01-03-2014, 03:24 PM
For what it's worth before this lil spurt Lowry was being openly shopped by Toronto. His play of late has increased his value so they're not just going to give him away but from all reports he is still very much available....

Jamiecballer
01-03-2014, 03:25 PM
yea no way Lowry is THAT good. There are at least 5-6 guys who are well above him not including CP3 and Curry. I think Lowry is a fringe top-10 PG that has been underrated for years but lets not get crazy.

the question was raised of which point guards have had better seasons THIS year. i don't think there are 7-8 pg's that have had better seasons. depends on what you value obviously. i wouldn't want Westbrook running my team under any circumstances but some people think he's great.

FriedTofuz
01-03-2014, 03:25 PM
No way Conley, Holiday or Irving are better than Lowry.
Irvingcant not pass, he's a ball hog, and cant make players better. His defense is horrible.
But I do think he's a sick offensive player who I'd use in 2k, but yeah, he aint great for winning.

FriedTofuz
01-03-2014, 03:36 PM
parker
paul
westbrook
curry
walll
lillard
teague
lawson
Lowry

lowry is def a top 10 pg.

Tony_Starks
01-03-2014, 03:42 PM
parker
paul
westbrook
curry
walll
lillard
teague
lawson
Lowry

lowry is def a top 10 pg.

A reasonable argument can be made for top 10 but someone went so far as to say top 5 which is absurd.....

BHF
01-03-2014, 03:47 PM
A reasonable argument can be made for top 10 but someone went so far as to say top 5 which is absurd.....

Lowry has been playing like a top 5 pg since the Rudy Gay trade because he is a two way player with really good defense, he is not flashy and some nba2k14 kids might not like him because of that. Lowry is not a top 5 pg but he is playing like one right now.

waveycrockett
01-03-2014, 03:51 PM
the question was raised of which point guards have had better seasons THIS year. i don't think there are 7-8 pg's that have had better seasons. depends on what you value obviously. i wouldn't want Westbrook running my team under any circumstances but some people think he's great.

Oh ok then I agree with you but if we are talking about beyond this year then Russ hands down over Lowry that's not even a hard decision.

BHF
01-03-2014, 03:55 PM
Oh ok then I agree with you but if we are talking about beyond this year then Russ hands down over Lowry that's not even a hard decision.

I would trade half the raps team for a healthy Westbrook.

FriedTofuz
01-03-2014, 04:51 PM
raptor fans, there's no way lowry is playing as a top 5 pg. Look at the top 5 once again, their team record and their stats.

Parker
Westbrook
Curry
Paul
Wall


There's no way lowry is better than those. He's at least a top 10, i'd be happy receiving acknowledgement of top 10. I agree with tony, saying top 5 is absurd/

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 04:59 PM
raptor fans, there's no way lowry is playing as a top 5 pg. Look at the top 5 once again, their team record and their stats.

Parker
Westbrook
Curry
Paul
Wall


There's no way lowry is better than those. He's at least a top 10, i'd be happy receiving acknowledgement of top 10. I agree with tony, saying top 5 is absurd/

There's no way Lowry is having a better season than Lillard either. It's a strong top 6 then a slight fall off (even though Irving should fix that soon enough if he stays healthy).

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 05:00 PM
Maybe I wasn't on the site at the time but did Jeff Teague or Jrue Holiday get their own threads when they put up stretches of 18-9 games?

Tony_Starks
01-03-2014, 05:19 PM
Maybe I wasn't on the site at the time but did Jeff Teague or Jrue Holiday get their own threads when they put up stretches of 18-9 games?

I think people jumped on the Jrue bandwagon at some point but even ATL homers don't trust Teague yet...

Swashcuff
01-03-2014, 07:03 PM
Jeff Teague the most overrated PG of the 2013-2014 NBA season. Isaiah Thomas the most underrated. What on earth does that guy have to do to get recognition. Guess that's what happens when you're second fiddle to Boogie Cousins on a losing team.

bucketss
01-03-2014, 07:06 PM
Lowry has been playing like a top 5 pg since the Rudy Gay trade because he is a two way player with really good defense, he is not flashy and some nba2k14 kids might not like him because of that. Lowry is not a top 5 pg but he is playing like one right now.

Looll they're more into who ever has the sicker crossovers and "swag"

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 07:16 PM
I love that I've spent the majority of my posts on this thread trying to derail Lowry hype when I'm literally dying to get him on the Knicks. :laugh:

bagwell368
01-03-2014, 09:56 PM
This is what you call speaking without thinking.

Chris Paul
Stephen Curry
Tony Parker
Russell Westbrook
Damian Lillard
John Wall

Those are the top 6 with Kyrie Irving, Mike Conley, Ty Lawson, Jrue Holiday rounding out the top 10. You can make a case today for borderline top 10 the way he is playing but not top 5.

Back at you. Wall, Parker, and Westbrook have not been better than Lowry this year - you'r just going on prior year rep.

Irving sucks this year - Holiday too. Conley I like a lot, but he's not better this year. Lawson? No, pretty close however.

Sorry, so far this year Lowry is 4th/5th at PG.

bagwell368
01-03-2014, 10:02 PM
raptor fans, there's no way lowry is playing as a top 5 pg. Look at the top 5 once again, their team record and their stats.

Parker
Westbrook
Curry
Paul
Wall

There's no way lowry is better than those. He's at least a top 10, i'd be happy receiving acknowledgement of top 10. I agree with tony, saying top 5 is absurd/

Wall's shooting has dragged him down. He's probably out of the top 10. Parker is probably 6/7 range right now, but he's not having a better year than Lowry. Who do I want between the two for their entire career? parker obviously - but we are talking this year, and this year only.

bagwell368
01-03-2014, 10:03 PM
I love that I've spent the majority of my posts on this thread trying to derail Lowry hype when I'm literally dying to get him on the Knicks. :laugh:

I love the fact that you stuck your big foot in your big mouth by making a list based on subjective impressions!

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 10:18 PM
Back at you. Wall, Parker, and Westbrook have not been better than Lowry this year - you'r just going on prior year rep.

Irving sucks this year - Holiday too. Conley I like a lot, but he's not better this year. Lawson? No, pretty close however.

Sorry, so far this year Lowry is 4th/5th at PG.

I'm going by production and team success. What are your qualifications? They all have higher PERs, while controlling a significantly higher usage of their team's possessions.

FriedTofuz
01-03-2014, 10:36 PM
after shumperts 27pts, knicks will say Shumpert for lowry swap is too much.

Jamiecballer
01-03-2014, 10:45 PM
I'm going by production and team success. What are your qualifications? They all have higher PERs, while controlling a significantly higher usage of their team's possessions.

his and my list seem to be pretty similar so if he's like me that's not a point in their favour. those guards for the most part missed the job description when they signed up to be point guards IMO. with a few exceptions like Curry/Parker/Paul.

zn23
01-03-2014, 10:46 PM
Lowry had a great game tonight. By the end of the year he'll likely finish as a top 5 point guard.

FriedTofuz
01-04-2014, 03:08 AM
Derozan and lowry are playing like two TOP 5 at their positions. It's Insane. If they can steal one against indiana or miami again, watch out/

firebryan!!
01-04-2014, 05:04 AM
Last I checked the Raptors are far from championship caliber and Lowrys D doesn't exactly set the world on fire.

But I get it, psd hates Jennings. Blah blah blah.... I heard the same garbage regurgitated for years about Monta and look at him now. It's all about being in the right situation....
kyle lowry is one of the defensive pgs in the league man

bagwell368
01-04-2014, 08:22 AM
I'm going by production and team success. What are your qualifications? They all have higher PERs, while controlling a significantly higher usage of their team's possessions.

Team success to judge a player? Reasonable as a partial input, ridiculous as the main/only input. That's in large part why Bill Russell shows up in the top 10 all time lists - when you subtract the GM/Coach and team, and consider the weakness of their opponents in particular from '59-'65, a league average center sees the Celts to at least 8 of those titles, and if Russell was drafted by 4 of the other 7 teams in the league he wins 0 or 1 title.

PER is a junk stat. It's been ripped to shreds here, and it's ripped all over the net. Try TS%, ORtg, DRtg, WS/48 instead.

KnicksorBust
01-04-2014, 09:19 AM
Team success to judge a player? Reasonable as a partial input, ridiculous as the main/only input. That's in large part why Bill Russell shows up in the top 10 all time lists - when you subtract the GM/Coach and team, and consider the weakness of their opponents in particular from '59-'65, a league average center sees the Celts to at least 8 of those titles, and if Russell was drafted by 4 of the other 7 teams in the league he wins 0 or 1 title.

PER is a junk stat. It's been ripped to shreds here, and it's ripped all over the net. Try TS%, ORtg, DRtg, WS/48 instead.

So it's just a coincidence that this "junk" stat always ends up with the best players in the NBA at the top of the list? :)

Everything you said is pure opinion and speculation and you don't even mention Kyle Lowry once in this post. Great rebuttal.

bagwell368
01-04-2014, 10:39 AM
So it's just a coincidence that this "junk" stat always ends up with the best players in the NBA at the top of the list? :)

Everything you said is pure opinion and speculation and you don't even mention Kyle Lowry once in this post. Great rebuttal.

PER gives a list of players that satisfy fans that think players with the most FGA is a mark of greatness, which it certainly is not.

I'm on a tablet this AM which makes multiple browsers virtually impossible, later on I'll savage PER from multiple sources.

As for Lowry, his game this year speaks for itself, do you actually think I can't support what I've written?

This PM I'll be back, then we'll see who has the facts marshalled vs who is going off of rep/subjective BS.

Swashcuff
01-04-2014, 11:33 AM
So it's just a coincidence that this "junk" stat always ends up with the best players in the NBA at the top of the list? :)

Everything you said is pure opinion and speculation and you don't even mention Kyle Lowry once in this post. Great rebuttal.

KoB DRtg is MUCH better than PER. That's why Carlos Boozer is better than Kevin Love don't you know this? :laugh2:

KnicksorBust
01-04-2014, 04:28 PM
KoB DRtg is MUCH better than PER. That's why Carlos Boozer is better than Kevin Love don't you know this? :laugh2:

:)

It's going to be a test of patience to continue the back and forth with him because PER, while not being perfect, has been reliable in showing valuable production for an individual season. He's going to give me some silly example of a superior player having a lower PER than a bad player or some debatable flaw in the formula (like it favoring more FGAs) and all it will do is distract from the fact that he hasn't shown one shred of evidence that would make Lowry a top 5 PG and this is all just muddling the topic.

FriedTofuz
01-04-2014, 05:04 PM
I dont think kyle lowry's defense is that great, he has a hard time fighting through screens and doesnt have the explosiveness to always keep his man in front of him.

FriedTofuz
01-04-2014, 05:04 PM
a good defender is like terrence ross

KnicksorBust
01-04-2014, 05:07 PM
I dont think kyle lowry's defense is that great, he has a hard time fighting through screens and doesnt have the explosiveness to always keep his man in front of him.

Synergy has him ranked as the 266th best defender in the NBA by opp PPP.

Jamiecballer
01-04-2014, 06:38 PM
Lowry leads the NBA in charges taken with 39, more than 50% more than anyone else.

bagwell368
01-04-2014, 10:06 PM
:)

It's going to be a test of patience to continue the back and forth with him because PER, while not being perfect, has been reliable in showing valuable production for an individual season. He's going to give me some silly example of a superior player having a lower PER than a bad player or some debatable flaw in the formula (like it favoring more FGAs) and all it will do is distract from the fact that he hasn't shown one shred of evidence that would make Lowry a top 5 PG and this is all just muddling the topic.

What a waste of time - trying to call what I'm going to write.

#1. PER sucks.

A. Per sucks because it's not a comprehensive stat. On the defensive side of the ball it measures steals, blocks, and defensive rebounds. Nothing else. Lots of players gamble on D to get steals, but get burned by the player with the ball, or from a pass to a player whose defensive man has moved out of place to help out the player trying for the steal. Blocks are a sliver of what makes up defense - for bigs, less for smalls. Same is true for DReb's, mostly for bigger guys.

On offense, players that have a high FGA relative to league average score higher than players with better percentages, but less FGA. I guess Hollinger must be a fan of chuckers.

B. Grades that make no sense: Bruce Bowen who was largely regarded as one of the top on ball defenders for a good stretch of time has terrible PER scores - in large part because he didn't amass a lot of steals, blocks, and DReb's. His real rating given his total game would be say a 13.0-14.0 (a bit below average). His career mark is: 8.2

How about the career list?

PER says all time:

#4 David Robinson (only one guy on PSD thinks he belongs here)
#7 Wade
#22 Ming
#28 Stoudemire - he's at #100 at best.
#54 Al Jefferson (hahahha, talk about a guy totally unfamiliar with playing D)
#83 Redd (oh dear)
#102 Bill Russell - I down rate him compared to most, but he's no #102...
#243 Cheeks (He's around #75 all time - another guy badly underrated by PER)

beasted86
01-04-2014, 10:25 PM
Kyle Lowry a top 5 PG?

Well... I guess every team has it's homers.

bagwell368
01-04-2014, 10:33 PM
I'm going by production and team success. What are your qualifications? They all have higher PERs, while controlling a significantly higher usage of their team's possessions.

So more USG% is somehow always a good thing?" Explain why?

For instance as of last night's games let's look at these numbers:


Name - USG% - Ast

Wstbrk 32.9 - 7.0
Irving 30.4 - 6.1
Wall 27.6 - 8.8
Parker 26.7 - 6.1
Paul 24.9 - 11.2
Lillard 24.5 - 6.0
Lowry 19.6 - 7.5

Just looking at this we can see Westbrook and Irving must shoot a lot relative to pass - unless say Lowry has a very effective offense compared to most of these others. Irving 19.1 !!! leads the NBA for PG's (3rd overall), Westbrook 17.9 is 3rd among PG's.

Lowry is only taking 11.9 FG's a game (one reason his PER is outside the top 5). He's got a lot of assists given the time he has the ball, and is scoring 15.7 PPG on efficient shooting on top of that. His team is 18th in scoring, so, looking at that list, Lowry has the 2nd highest assist per USG%. That's a good thing, not a bad one.

Let's talk the top 5 this year:


Name - WS/48 TS% ORtg DRtg

Paul .288 .578 123 101

Curry .214 .589 113 101
Lowry .203 .575 120 103
Lillard .197 .590 121 110

Thomas .171 .593 117 111
the rest

Paul is head and shoulders over everyone. The next 3 are within 10% of each other. Thomas and the rest another 20%+ drop.

PER isn't as good as any one of these stats alone, it certainly isn't a match for all 4.

FriedTofuz
01-04-2014, 11:28 PM
So essentially, lowry is a top 5 pg afterall.? awesome :D

Swashcuff
01-04-2014, 11:46 PM
I await KoB's response. I smell a slaughtering but bagwell will never admit to it.

PER does what it was meant to do. DRtg > PER? Child please. I understand people's gripes with PER but if you're honestly going to sit here and tell me that it sucks because of where player's rank then why don't you have issues with WS/48.

Swashcuff
01-05-2014, 12:01 AM
Tony Parker vs George Hill who is the better player this season?

Jamiecballer
01-05-2014, 12:48 AM
So more USG% is somehow always a good thing?" Explain why?

For instance as of last night's games let's look at these numbers:


Name - USG% - Ast

Wstbrk 32.9 - 7.0
Irving 30.4 - 6.1
Wall 27.6 - 8.8
Parker 26.7 - 6.1
Paul 24.9 - 11.2
Lillard 24.5 - 6.0
Lowry 19.6 - 7.5

Just looking at this we can see Westbrook and Irving must shoot a lot relative to pass - unless say Lowry has a very effective offense compared to most of these others. Irving 19.1 !!! leads the NBA for PG's (3rd overall), Westbrook 17.9 is 3rd among PG's.

Lowry is only taking 11.9 FG's a game (one reason his PER is outside the top 5). He's got a lot of assists given the time he has the ball, and is scoring 15.7 PPG on efficient shooting on top of that. His team is 18th in scoring, so, looking at that list, Lowry has the 2nd highest assist per USG%. That's a good thing, not a bad one.

Let's talk the top 5 this year:


Name - WS/48 TS% ORtg DRtg

Paul .288 .578 123 101

Curry .214 .589 113 101
Lowry .203 .575 120 103
Lillard .197 .590 121 110

Thomas .171 .593 117 111
the rest

Paul is head and shoulders over everyone. The next 3 are within 10% of each other. Thomas and the rest another 20%+ drop.

PER isn't as good as any one of these stats alone, it certainly isn't a match for all 4.

Agree again. Lowry does what a point guard is supposed to do - initiate the offense not dominate it. Cough cough Westbrook.

FriedTofuz
01-05-2014, 03:36 AM
Agree again. Lowry does what a point guard is supposed to do - initiate the offense not dominate it. Cough cough Westbrook.


so then derrick rose sucks? I always thought chris paul was still the best pg because of his ast totals, same with nash and rondo.

bagwell368
01-05-2014, 09:07 AM
Kyle Lowry a top 5 PG?

Well... I guess every team has it's homers.

Cool idea, except I've been a Celts fan since the '60's.

bagwell368
01-05-2014, 09:11 AM
I await KoB's response. I smell a slaughtering but bagwell will never admit to it.

PER does what it was meant to do. DRtg > PER? Child please. I understand people's gripes with PER but if you're honestly going to sit here and tell me that it sucks because of where player's rank then why don't you have issues with WS/48.

I wasn't careful enough in my wording. ORtg and DRtg together slaughter PER. PER is an offensively oriented incomplete stat - designed to be something like WAR in baseball or WS in hoops, but it's data set is very weak on the defensive side. I can't think of one serious poster on PSD that defends PER as a top stat, child.

Of course I have issues w/ WS/48, but again the suite of stats I put out easily outclass PER, USG% (more is better), and a quick look at the standings. A players WS as a percentage of the teams would be more telling since WS's are tied to wins and wins are a team stat more than an individual stat, but looking at the WS/team WS of the player in question doesn't show a lot of bias. Also his differential between ORtg and DRtg is also clearly top 5 in the NBA this year among PG's.

bagwell368
01-05-2014, 09:24 AM
Tony Parker vs George Hill who is the better player this season?

It's pretty close but I'll go with Parker because his team has had a tougher schedule.

I used WS/48 as a way to give a list for my post last night, but throwing in the schedule factor, Lowry has to move down a few slots, looks like 5th. More later.

dalton749
01-05-2014, 10:19 AM
what schedule factor?
the raps have had the hardest schedule in the east

Jamiecballer
01-05-2014, 10:54 AM
so then derrick rose sucks?
no, he doesn't suck. as the focal point of an offense he's perfectly fine. he's also highly intelligent. if i had a team of complementary players like Chicago does I would be fine to have him as my pg.

I always thought chris paul was still the best pg because of his ast totals, same with nash and rondo.
chris paul IS the best pg. he straddles the line between being the offense and involving others better than any other point guard in the game. for someone so talented his usage is pretty low. he gets it in the same way Garnett got it which is why he receives a lot of the same criticisms come playoff time.

Swashcuff
01-05-2014, 11:26 AM
I wasn't careful enough in my wording. ORtg and DRtg together slaughter PER. PER is an offensively oriented incomplete stat - designed to be something like WAR in baseball or WS in hoops, but it's data set is very weak on the defensive side. I can't think of one serious poster on PSD that defends PER as a top stat, child.

Of course I have issues w/ WS/48, but again the suite of stats I put out easily outclass PER, USG% (more is better), and a quick look at the standings. A players WS as a percentage of the teams would be more telling since WS's are tied to wins and wins are a team stat more than an individual stat, but looking at the WS/team WS of the player in question doesn't show a lot of bias. Also his differential between ORtg and DRtg is also clearly top 5 in the NBA this year among PG's.


It's pretty close but I'll go with Parker because his team has had a tougher schedule.

I used WS/48 as a way to give a list for my post last night, but throwing in the schedule factor, Lowry has to move down a few slots, looks like 5th. More later.

I can NEVER get on board with gauging a player's worth based solely on stats like ORtg, DRtg and WS which are all heavily reliant on the ability of your teammates. George Hill close to Tony Parker? Really what exactly makes George Hill a better basketball player than Tony Parker this season? Is his a better shooter? No. Is he a better ball handler? No. Is he a better passer? No. Is he a better leader? No. Is he a better defender? No. So what exactly makes him close to Tony Parker? His WS? Place George Hill and Tony Parker on the Suns in place of Dragic and tell me how much better than Suns would be with Parker instead of Dragic. I know for a fact it would be considerably better.

I don't put much stock in DRtg which is why I won't say if I couple it with ORtg its better than PER. DRtg is just as guilty as PER on D. PER doesn't take more important factors than blocks, steals and defensive rebounding (if you want to consider that a defensive stat) into consideration and DRtg doesn't take the impact of teammates into consideration.

By your reasoning in years gone by Carlos Boozer is a top 8 PF and probably a top 15 big man overall but anyone who truly studies his impact and production for the Bulls can tell you that's far from the truth.

You compare different players in different systems with different supporting casts with stats that are HEAVILY reliant on those factors use almost nothing else and come to a conclusion. That makes no sense IMO. Get a bit more holistic with you statistical argument and while you're at it throw a bit more context in there.

FOXHOUND
01-05-2014, 02:16 PM
I can NEVER get on board with gauging a player's worth based solely on stats like ORtg, DRtg and WS which are all heavily reliant on the ability of your teammates. George Hill close to Tony Parker? Really what exactly makes George Hill a better basketball player than Tony Parker this season? Is his a better shooter? No. Is he a better ball handler? No. Is he a better passer? No. Is he a better leader? No. Is he a better defender? No. So what exactly makes him close to Tony Parker? His WS? Place George Hill and Tony Parker on the Suns in place of Dragic and tell me how much better than Suns would be with Parker instead of Dragic. I know for a fact it would be considerably better.

I don't put much stock in DRtg which is why I won't say if I couple it with ORtg its better than PER. DRtg is just as guilty as PER on D. PER doesn't take more important factors than blocks, steals and defensive rebounding (if you want to consider that a defensive stat) into consideration and DRtg doesn't take the impact of teammates into consideration.

By your reasoning in years gone by Carlos Boozer is a top 8 PF and probably a top 15 big man overall but anyone who truly studies his impact and production for the Bulls can tell you that's far from the truth.

You compare different players in different systems with different supporting casts with stats that are HEAVILY reliant on those factors use almost nothing else and come to a conclusion. That makes no sense IMO. Get a bit more holistic with you statistical argument and while you're at it throw a bit more context in there.

Pretty spot on, I would say. I like using Orating and Drating, but ONLY with players on the same team. To me it's far too a team stat to try and use it that way. PER isn't the best stat around, but I think the biggest problem is when people try to use it as more than it is. It's not a player rater, it's an efficiency rater. And yeah, FGA are going to play a factor because the more you shoot the harder it is the maintain efficiency. A guy shooting 45% on 20 FGA per game is a lot more efficient than a guy shooting 50% on 10 FGA. Overall I don't like PER because I hate stats that are based on arbitrary formulas. They are attempts to make basketball a far more complicated game than it is, and poor attempts that turn box score heroes into overrated players.

WS I just can't stand for the same reason. It's still a team stat and dependent on how many games that team won. It's converted from baseballs WS system and it's just laughable to me how many people try to bring baseball stats to basketball as if the games are remotely the same. Just blah. USG% is nice but is horribly misused. The talent on the team and team system dictate USG%, not the player. The way bagwell tried to use it to compare the willingness to pass is way outdated, we have specific passing data now available for free on NBA.com.

For advanced stats you can't get better than the SportVU data available on NBA.com, IMO. What you find there is tangible data to the game of basketball recorded from nothing but the facts of the game as it happens. There's no human element to skewer things in a formula to hype up certain aspects or sweeping attempts to make a single rating or any of that nonsense.

Like with that data I can tell you that Kyle Lowry makes 70.7 passes per game, creates 17.5 PPG on his 7.7 APG on 14.6 assist opportunities, records 1.4 secondary assists per game, 0.5 FT assists per game. He does this on 89.9 touches per game, 78 of them of coming in the front court, and has the ball in his hands for 6.6 minutes per game, or 6:36. To me THAT'S advanced data, not this other crap that's been floating around since Hollinger.

Brandon Jennings makes 64.7 passes per game, creates 18.6 PPG on his 8.3 APG on 16.3 assist opportunities. He records 1.4 secondary assists and 0.8 FT assists per game. He does this on 88.5 touches per game, 79.1 of them coming in the front court, and has the ball in his hands for 7.7 minutes, or 7:42.

I can tell you that Brandon Jennings takes 7.4 drives per game, classified as any touch that starts at least 20 feet of the hoop and is dribbled within 10 feet of the hoop and excludes fast breaks. He shoots just 37.6% on drives, scoring 4.1 PPG. His team scores 8.5 PPG total on his drives combined with assists created on them. Kyle Lowry takes 5.4 drives per game, shooting 45.8% and scoring 3.0 PPG. His PTS + ASTs on drives add up to 6.6 PPG for his team.

You can find other data, like catch and shoot, pull up and overall shooting efficiency as well as data on rebounding and the ability to defend the rim. What they will tell you is that Jennings is a better passer than Lowry and a better pull up shooter, but a far less efficient spot up shooter and driver and I'm sure a large amount of that is due to his inability to finish with his off hand in any capacity. To his credit Jennings rarely takes spot up shots, but it just tells the same story we've known about him his whole career. Jennings is a good passing PG who tries to be a scoring PG, where as his scoring ability is pretty crap beyond the few games he catches fire and hits what are otherwise low % shots.

deaner
01-05-2014, 04:29 PM
Kyle Lowry a top 5 PG?

Well... I guess every team has it's homers.

You have a chance to watch him tonight.

bucketss
01-05-2014, 05:06 PM
Cool idea, except I've been a Celts fan since the '60's.

wow you're old : pp

bagwell368
01-05-2014, 09:53 PM
I can NEVER get on board with gauging a player's worth based solely on stats like ORtg, DRtg and WS which are all heavily reliant on the ability of your teammates.

When I first got to PSD on hoops side, too many people were dissing on my subjective take on the game, so I added the stats to it as well. I don't see every game, not even close. In particular I don't see night games on the West Coast hardly ever. So, I'm supposed to go on what journalists or ESPN says? No thanks.


George Hill close to Tony Parker? Really what exactly makes George Hill a better basketball player than Tony Parker this season?

Tony Parker had maybe his best year last year. He's not having nearly as great a year this year. Do you disagree?


Is he a better defender? No.

Wrong.


I don't put much stock in DRtg which is why I won't say if I couple it with ORtg its better than PER. DRtg is just as guilty as PER on D. PER doesn't take more important factors than blocks, steals and defensive rebounding (if you want to consider that a defensive stat) into consideration and DRtg doesn't take the impact of teammates into consideration.

DRebounding is defense. The fact is PER sucks for D. DRtg is a better stat - not w/o it's own issues, but then again you are arguing, but offering no actual facts, so why should anyone take the word of a guy who thinks PER is good enough on the stat side? By the way, temmates play has a large impact on DRtg.


By your reasoning in years gone by Carlos Boozer is a top 8 PF and probably a top 15 big man overall but anyone who truly studies his impact and production for the Bulls can tell you that's far from the truth.

Boozer? Erratic career, not to my taste, but in half of his 12 years he's been at the back edge of the top 8, and his other six years? No, more like 15-22 range.


You compare different players in different systems with different supporting casts with stats that are HEAVILY reliant on those factors use almost nothing else and come to a conclusion. That makes no sense IMO.

Well isn't that what you are trying to do with your question on Parker or Lowry on the Suns? So it's OK for you? How is it possible to make any list of NBA players if they can't come from different systems? If I look at them with stats better than what you use, and subjective impressions based on this year alone, I come up with my list. You don't like it? Fine.

Swashcuff
01-05-2014, 10:18 PM
Bagwell what you don't get is that I am not arguing which stat is better or which stat is the best, I'm just pointing out how foolish it is to base your opinions on players based on 3 stats that are heavily reliant on external factors and using absolutely no context whatsoever.

You wanna argue against PER fine go right ahead I'm not Hollinger I'm not going to argue why its good, bad or indifferent just like every stat it has its limitations but for what it was made to do and what it represents its quite good. If you don't like it that's fine but don't act as if you disliking it makes it suck.

You want PER about a player's D. Tell me why don't you ask ORtg to do that for you or WS or eFG% or TRB% etc that isn't what PER was made to do. It's heavily reliant on factors outside of just D and favours a certain type of player. This is known I don't need to go pulling up formulas links or making any quotes. This is why it isn't used as a tool for measuring D. So I can't understand why you want it to do that for you. If you want to measure individual D however there are MUCH better stats than using DRtg (one of the worse there is) which as I said before is a team stat and not an individual.

All my points seem to fly over your head. All everyone's points seem to fly over your head its like you go completely off tangent with any discussion you get yourself into.

I am not arguing for PER I'm simply stating how foolish it is to base your entire argument on ORtg, DRtg and WS. By that reasoning George Hill is a top 10 PG in the NBA and Mike Conley, Russell Westbrook, John Wall and Kyrie Irving are on the outside looking in. Sad thing about that is in 2 weeks time those numbers can change and where would you stand? Swaying in whatever direction the statistical wind blows you? C'mon you need to learn to be more holistic in your assessments and get some sort of a balance.

bagwell368
01-06-2014, 05:21 PM
Bagwell what you don't get is that I am not arguing which stat is better or which stat is the best, I'm just pointing out how foolish it is to base your opinions on players based on 3 stats that are heavily reliant on external factors and using absolutely no context whatsoever.

You wanna argue against PER fine go right ahead I'm not Hollinger I'm not going to argue why its good, bad or indifferent just like every stat it has its limitations but for what it was made to do and what it represents its quite good. If you don't like it that's fine but don't act as if you disliking it makes it suck.

It sucks when anyone - uses it as a one size stat to make judgements with. It's not a good stat used that way. Earlier in the thread a poster said Lowry wasn't top 5 because his PER wasn't top 5 among PG's.


This is known I don't need to go pulling up formulas links or making any quotes. This is why it isn't used as a tool for measuring D.

Good for you. My original argument was with another poster.


All my points seem to fly over your head. All everyone's points seem to fly over your head its like you go completely off tangent with any discussion you get yourself into.

I don't think most posters find me that way.


I am not arguing for PER I'm simply stating how foolish it is to base your entire argument on ORtg, DRtg and WS.

I wasn't I was arguing in stages, but because of all the wankers arguing for PER and against my stats. I had to point out how stupid it is to look at USG% and assists the way one poster looked at them as well. I never got to talking about head to head play, and various observations.


By that reasoning George Hill is a top 10 PG in the NBA and Mike Conley, Russell Westbrook, John Wall and Kyrie Irving are on the outside looking in. Sad thing about that is in 2 weeks time those numbers can change and where would you stand? Swaying in whatever direction the statistical wind blows you? C'mon you need to learn to be more holistic in your assessments and get some sort of a balance.

Irving and Westbrook shoot too much. Irving doesn't play D. Wall has dominated that ball, but not shot well. So?

Chronz
01-06-2014, 06:30 PM
u guys r goin in circles now. n0 need for this pointless spat.

Jamiecballer
01-09-2014, 02:34 PM
ESPN ranks Lowry as 4th so far this season in recent article

:cheers:

i realize that's the equivalent to high-fiving a ****** but i'll take it.

Byronicle
01-09-2014, 03:04 PM
ESPN ranks Lowry as 4th so far this season in recent article

:cheers:

i realize that's the equivalent to high-fiving a ****** but i'll take it.

but he's not worth that 1st rounder we gave up for him though!!! (sarcasm)

FriedTofuz
01-10-2014, 03:51 AM
4th

SPURSFAN1
01-10-2014, 04:12 AM
ESPN Ranked lowry at 4th and parker at 19th. This is a joke list. And Parker is light years ahead of george hill.

koreancabbage
01-10-2014, 06:48 PM
ESPN Ranked lowry at 4th and parker at 19th. This is a joke list. And Parker is light years ahead of george hill.

why? b/c he's having a better year than Parker? I mean Parker at 19th is bad but right now, Lowry is producing more than Parker, so i would expect him to be ahead of Parker right now.

Sly Guy
01-10-2014, 07:24 PM
Kyle Lowry now rated in the MVP race by NBA.com

RipCity32
01-10-2014, 07:36 PM
Kyle Lowry now rated in the MVP race by NBA.com

Are you serious? :laugh2:

SPURSFAN1
01-10-2014, 07:39 PM
NBA.com has parker listed at 7.

SPURSFAN1
01-10-2014, 07:40 PM
why? b/c he's having a better year than Parker? I mean Parker at 19th is bad but right now, Lowry is producing more than Parker, so i would expect him to be ahead of Parker right now.

sorry to tell you but Parker is also lightyears ahead of lowry.

zn23
01-10-2014, 07:47 PM
sorry to tell you but Parker is also lightyears ahead of lowry.

You're overrating Parker.

Parker is better, but not "lightyears" better. Lowry is having the better year.

FriedTofuz
01-10-2014, 11:37 PM
James Dolan be like " Shumpert is too much for Lowry"

deaner
01-11-2014, 01:00 AM
Anything Dolan touches turns to ....

FriedTofuz
01-11-2014, 12:34 PM
So lowry is a top 5 pg by the MVP rankings. He's definitely going to be an All-Star as well.

Swashcuff
01-11-2014, 03:47 PM
So lowry is a top 5 pg by the MVP rankings. He's definitely going to be an All-Star as well.

Was Jrue a top 5 PG last season? He was as high as 7 in the MVP rankings last season IIRC

Jamiecballer
01-11-2014, 05:27 PM
Was Jrue a top 5 PG last season? He was as high as 7 in the MVP rankings last season IIRC

depends on whether his defence matches his offense or not. if yes, then sure.

FriedTofuz
01-11-2014, 06:06 PM
Was Jrue a top 5 PG last season? He was as high as 7 in the MVP rankings last season IIRC

yup. The other 7 in front of him who were pgs, they were above him, so Jrue was a top 7 PG for the duration that he received praise for.

dtmagnet
01-11-2014, 07:05 PM
Was Jrue a top 5 PG last season? He was as high as 7 in the MVP rankings last season IIRC

Jrue was amazing last year.

koreancabbage
01-11-2014, 07:40 PM
sorry to tell you but Parker is also lightyears ahead of lowry.

Homer

Get your head out of the sand and see Lowry is the better player this season. So yes, Parker is somehow light years ahead of him.