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Drummond#1
12-30-2013, 11:56 PM
Why is no one talking about this guy? He is having a monster year on a .500 playoff team and seems to be getting better every week.
He's averaging 20/9/4 and 2 steals per game. Plus he is above 20 in PER (for the sabermetrics nerds).
If the Wizards keep improving does he deserve to be in the MVP discussion?

Red_Pill
12-31-2013, 12:09 AM
does he deserve to be in the MVP discussion?

lol

Duncan = Donkey
12-31-2013, 12:11 AM
having a great year, being in MVP discussion is laughable though

Kashmir13579
12-31-2013, 12:20 AM
Who references PER anymore? What a lame stat.

John Walls Era
12-31-2013, 12:21 AM
augh. i dont wanna make this into the apologize to dwight thread. close this please. I rather he quietly make the AS-game.

FraziersKnicks
12-31-2013, 12:28 AM
No player is winning MVP unless he's leading his team to at the minimum a top 2 seed in their conference.

John Wall is playing fantastically however, a top 5 PG this season in my eyes.

BirdIsTheWord
12-31-2013, 12:45 AM
Are the turnovers down and FG% up?

TrueFan420
12-31-2013, 01:47 AM
No player is winning MVP unless he's leading his team to at the minimum a top 2 seed in their conference.

John Wall is playing fantastically however, a top 5 PG this season in my eyes.
Who's your top 5 then?

TrueFan420
12-31-2013, 01:51 AM
augh. i dont wanna make this into the apologize to dwight thread. close this please. I rather he quietly make the AS-game.

AS team in the east at guard is soft. He doesn't make it if he's in the west.

Drummond#1
12-31-2013, 08:51 AM
I understand just letting him make the all star game but there were a lot of people talking mad **** about this kid in the past. Saying he would be out of the league in a couple years due to his assist/to ratio, comparing him to ****ing TJ Ford? All kinds of stupid ****. He's not my favorite player in the league but I do appreciate seeing people eat their words. The fact of the matter is that he is leading a relatively talentless team to wins with little help outside of Beal. Gortat is okay and Nene is okay. You look at the other "elite" point guards in this league and they have a helluva lot more help. Aside from Kyrie... And look how that is working out.

1. Paul (has BG32 and a bunch of decent role players)
2. Curry (has two all stars and Klay)
3. Wall (Beal and two medium level bigs)

Swashcuff
12-31-2013, 09:03 AM
I had a discussion with some posters on real gm and they said that Bradley Beal was the best player on the Wizards and not John Wall. That was before Beal went down and Wall started to really recover from his back spasms. I'd like to revisit that conversation again because Beal IMO isn't ever going to be on Wall's level (Wall still has lots of room to improve).

Swashcuff
12-31-2013, 09:06 AM
I understand just letting him make the all star game but there were a lot of people talking mad **** about this kid in the past. Saying he would be out of the league in a couple years due to his assist/to ratio, comparing him to ****ing TJ Ford? All kinds of stupid ****. He's not my favorite player in the league but I do appreciate seeing people eat their words. The fact of the matter is that he is leading a relatively talentless team to wins with little help outside of Beal. Gortat is okay and Nene is okay. You look at the other "elite" point guards in this league and they have a helluva lot more help. Aside from Kyrie... And look how that is working out.

1. Paul (has BG32 and a bunch of decent role players)
2. Curry (has two all stars and Klay)
3. Wall (Beal and two medium level bigs)

Dude the past wasn't so long ago. When he started this season slow due to injury those things were still being said. Now those idiots go ghost when the conversation is about John Wall, at least until he goes on a poor stretch they'd be right back out to attack his play.

Clippersfan86
12-31-2013, 01:58 PM
I was one of maybe 5 here who said Wall>Irving for future, this year it's coming to fruition. Irving has had a pretty terrible overall year by his standards, while Wall dominates.

John Walls Era
12-31-2013, 02:21 PM
AS team in the east at guard is soft. He doesn't make it if he's in the west.

**** Lillard. That guys only better at shooting. And theres no criteria for positions on all star teams anymore. Only CP3 and maybe Steph Curry are clear cut better than him in the West.

TrueFan420
12-31-2013, 03:25 PM
**** Lillard. That guys only better at shooting. And theres no criteria for positions on all star teams anymore. Only CP3 and maybe Steph Curry are clear cut better than him in the West.
Lillard is a big part of Portland being so high up the rankings. Um tony Parker says hi. And he still doesn't make it in the west. Too many good players on good teams. Wall has talent on his team nod their still struggling in the east people look at that for all star games.

b@llhog24
12-31-2013, 11:38 PM
He's doing what most people knew he was capable of.

John Walls Era
01-01-2014, 08:24 PM
Lillard is a big part of Portland being so high up the rankings. Um tony Parker says hi. And he still doesn't make it in the west. Too many good players on good teams. Wall has talent on his team nod their still struggling in the east people look at that for all star games.

o **** i forgot about parker. hes my fave.

****ing hot chicks left and right and giving the middle finger to the french govt

KnicksorBust
01-01-2014, 08:36 PM
I said in Sept 2012 that I still saw superstar potential in him. Anyone who watches him play on consistent basis will see that he's a terror in the open-court and can be an elite point guard. I'm a little annoyed that you were underestimating his supporting cast so drastically (Ariza/Beal/Webster are having careers years and Nene/Gortat is a solid frontcourt) and leave his name as far away from the MVP discussion as you can. Then we can start talking about his realistic potential as a player.

lol, please
01-02-2014, 02:36 AM
augh. i dont wanna make this into the apologize to dwight thread. close this please. I rather he quietly make the AS-game.

There he is folks. John Walls Era. :cool:

lol, please
01-02-2014, 02:37 AM
Who references PER anymore? What a lame stat.

:facepalm:

John Walls Era
01-02-2014, 03:32 AM
There he is folks. John Walls Era. :cool:

my time is now...

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 04:24 AM
Tony Parker
Stephen Curry
Chris Paul
Damian Lilliard
Russel Westbrook

Wall is definitely NOT a top 5 pg. LOL at the idea of him being an MVP candidate.

John Walls Era
01-02-2014, 04:38 AM
Tony Parker
Stephen Curry
Chris Paul
Damian Lilliard
Russel Westbrook

Wall is definitely NOT a top 5 pg. LOL at the idea of him being an MVP candidate.

dumb

Guppyfighter
01-02-2014, 05:01 AM
Lillard is way better than Wall.

Swashcuff
01-02-2014, 10:40 AM
Lillard is a way better shooter than Wall.

Fixed.

Lillard's efficiency is what sets him apart from Wall. Wall's overall game is what sets him apart from Lillard. Wall could legitimately average 10-11 assists in Portland, with improved efficiency with lesser volume. Wall would still be the better PG in every most senses of the word.

No way in hell is Lillard way better than Wall or vice versa.

BK-TY
01-02-2014, 11:12 AM
Wall is a beast. I'm disappointed WAS has him locked up for another 4 years.

FraziersKnicks
01-02-2014, 04:06 PM
Who's your top 5 then?

1. Chris Paul
2. Stephen Curry
3. Tony Parker
4. John Wall
5. Russell Westbrook (would've had him above Wall before he got injured, would probably put Lillard or Kyrie above him now)

FraziersKnicks
01-02-2014, 04:12 PM
The biggest PG surprise for me this year has been Isaiah Thomas since he's started for the Kings.

He's played like a top 5 PG in the league since he's started for the Kings averaging 21 and 8 on 47% shooting (45% from 3) and the guy was the last draft pick of 2011 and is 5'9. Got a love of love for Isaiah.

Guppyfighter
01-02-2014, 05:32 PM
Fixed.

Lillard's efficiency is what sets him apart from Wall. Wall's overall game is what sets him apart from Lillard. Wall could legitimately average 10-11 assists in Portland, with improved efficiency with lesser volume. Wall would still be the better PG in every most senses of the word.

No way in hell is Lillard way better than Wall or vice versa.

Lillard's TS is 60 points higher than and he turns it over six percent less of the time. You are fooling yourself if you think both of those marks could even rival Lillard if Wall was in his shoes.

There is also the defensive aspect.

Opponents against John Wall scored 23 points on 21.5 possessions per 48 minutes. They get eight assists and five turnovers.

Opponents against Lillard score 21 points on 21.5 possessions. They get eight assists and three turnovers.

They are basically equal in defense.

Ignoring all that, the inability to shoot is a major detriment. It's not something that we go "MEH." You don't get extra points for doing other things just as well.


If Lillard is more valuable and the soul reason is because of his shot than so be it. It's pretty ****ing important.

Not to mention the fact Lillard is doing all of this in the tougher defensive and offensive conference by far. Wall is putting up worse stats compared to Lillard in probably one of the worst conferences of all time.

FriedTofuz
01-02-2014, 05:35 PM
dumb

Lillards team is winning, john wall's isnt.

Guppyfighter
01-02-2014, 05:36 PM
Yeah, if you want to ignore stats for feelings, Wall really has nothing on Lillard for intangibles.

Swashcuff
01-02-2014, 06:41 PM
Lillard's TS is 60 points higher than and he turns it over six percent less of the time. You are fooling yourself if you think both of those marks could even rival Lillard if Wall was in his shoes.

Everyone knows Lillard is more efficient. Just like everyone knows Wall is better defensively.


There is also the defensive aspect.

Opponents against John Wall scored 23 points on 21.5 possessions per 48 minutes. They get eight assists and five turnovers.

Opponents against Lillard score 21 points on 21.5 possessions. They get eight assists and three turnovers.

They are basically equal in defense.

You are using numbers which were last updated more than two weeks ago. Numbers which don't isolate the individuals, the impact of Lillard teammates who are considerably better defensively than John Wall's aren't taken into consideration. But hey if you wanna look at stats from 3 weeks ago why don't you scroll down and see what happens to Was D when Wall goes to the bench. That's one of the biggest differential's in the NBA for a starting PG.

Anyone who thinks Lillard and Wall are a wash defensively CLEARLY do not watch John Wall or Damian Lillard play.


Ignoring all that, the inability to shoot is a major detriment. It's not something that we go "MEH." You don't get extra points for doing other things just as well.

Inability to shoot? In case you haven't realized John Wall's shooting numbers have steadily increased as the season has progressed. Reason why? He has started to suffer less from back spasms directly resulting in an improvement in his jump shot and better at breaking down defenses and getting into the paint.


If Lillard is more valuable and the soul reason is because of his shot than so be it. It's pretty ****ing important.

Not to mention the fact Lillard is doing all of this in the tougher defensive and offensive conference by far. Wall is putting up worse stats compared to Lillard in probably one of the worst conferences of all time.

That's your argument a tougher conference. Are you going to ignore the fact that Lillard plays with a player who was getting MVP buzz two weeks ago and is probably top 8 in the MVP ranks. Or that he is part of the most productive starting 5 in the NBA, it is no secret that having a lineup such as that takes GREAT pressure off of Lillard to perform very seldom is he doubled/trapped on offense and is not paid much attention to on the defensive end of the floor.

Outside of TS% and Win Shares what are these stats that make Damian Lillard MUCH better than John Wall?

Wall has a better PER and according to 82games.com he was #2 in Simple Rating among PGs (6th overall) and #3 in Net Rating after Kevin Love and Paul George.

The idea that Damian Lillard is way better than John Wall is absurd to say the least. It shows how people (namely you) get so hung up on stats that they forget what context means. Every single advanced passing metric there is points to John Wall being the 2nd best play making in the NBA after Chris Paul, but hey let's ignore than because once a player has a superior TS% and WS/48 that means he's automatically better. Let's ignore all context about teams, coaching, schemes etc.

b@llhog24
01-02-2014, 07:05 PM
dumb

Prove it.


The biggest PG surprise for me this year has been Isaiah Thomas since he's started for the Kings.

He's played like a top 5 PG in the league since he's started for the Kings averaging 21 and 8 on 47% shooting (45% from 3) and the guy was the last draft pick of 2011 and is 5'9. Got a love of love for Isaiah.

He's always been this good. Just an uptick in usage and mins. Obviously it's nice to see how he actually deals with the increase in both but I certainly wouldn't call it surprising.


Everyone knows Lillard is more efficient. Just like everyone knows Wall is better defensively.



You are using numbers which were last updated more than two weeks ago. Numbers which don't isolate the individuals, the impact of Lillard teammates who are considerably better defensively than John Wall's aren't taken into consideration. But hey if you wanna look at stats from 3 weeks ago why don't you scroll down and see what happens to Was D when Wall goes to the bench. That's one of the biggest differential's in the NBA for a starting PG.

Anyone who thinks Lillard and Wall are a wash defensively CLEARLY do not watch John Wall or Damian Lillard play.



Inability to shoot? In case you haven't realized John Wall's shooting numbers have steadily increased as the season has progressed. Reason why? He has started to suffer less from back spasms directly resulting in an improvement in his jump shot and better at breaking down defenses and getting into the paint.



That's your argument a tougher conference. Are you going to ignore the fact that Lillard plays with a player who was getting MVP buzz two weeks ago and is probably top 8 in the MVP ranks. Or that he is part of the most productive starting 5 in the NBA, it is no secret that having a lineup such as that takes GREAT pressure off of Lillard to perform very seldom is he doubled/trapped on offense and is not paid much attention to on the defensive end of the floor.

Outside of TS% and Win Shares what are these stats that make Damian Lillard MUCH better than John Wall?

Wall has a better PER and according to 82games.com he was #2 in Simple Rating among PGs (6th overall) and #3 in Net Rating after Kevin Love and Paul George.

The idea that Damian Lillard is way better than John Wall is absurd to say the least. It shows how people (namely you) get so hung up on stats that they forget what context means. Every single advanced passing metric there is points to John Wall being the 2nd best play making in the NBA after Chris Paul, but hey let's ignore than because once a player has a superior TS% and WS/48 that means he's automatically better. Let's ignore all context about teams, coaching, schemes etc.

Wizards are ranked 14th, Portland's is at 23rd. That aside Wall is the superior defender. Lillard is at best average.

tredigs
01-02-2014, 07:17 PM
What are all the stats that point to John Wall being the 2nd best playmaking guard in the NBA (with the way you word it I assume it's clear) over say Rubio and Curry, Swash? I'd have those three in the exact same spectrum.

But there's no doubt that JW is playing to his potential. Him and Lillard have been relatively similar in + production for their squads, though more is asked of Wall.

UKblazers
01-02-2014, 10:18 PM
Wizards are ranked 14th, Portland's is at 23rd. That aside Wall is the superior defender. Lillard is at best average.

You're being generous, Lillard still has a loooong way to go on that side. Right now they are probably a wash overall, going forward however I think Lillard will be the better player.

Despite the two being the same age this is Wall's 4th year in the league. By Lillards fourth year I think it's reasonable to expect that his playmaking ability for others would have improved, additionally given his touch its not unreasonable to expect him to add the floater into his arsenal. This will improve his ability to finish around the rim.

Guppyfighter
01-02-2014, 10:39 PM
Everyone knows Lillard is more efficient. Just like everyone knows Wall is better defensively.



You are using numbers which were last updated more than two weeks ago. Numbers which don't isolate the individuals, the impact of Lillard teammates who are considerably better defensively than John Wall's aren't taken into consideration. But hey if you wanna look at stats from 3 weeks ago why don't you scroll down and see what happens to Was D when Wall goes to the bench. That's one of the biggest differential's in the NBA for a starting PG.

Anyone who thinks Lillard and Wall are a wash defensively CLEARLY do not watch John Wall or Damian Lillard play.



Inability to shoot? In case you haven't realized John Wall's shooting numbers have steadily increased as the season has progressed. Reason why? He has started to suffer less from back spasms directly resulting in an improvement in his jump shot and better at breaking down defenses and getting into the paint.



That's your argument a tougher conference. Are you going to ignore the fact that Lillard plays with a player who was getting MVP buzz two weeks ago and is probably top 8 in the MVP ranks. Or that he is part of the most productive starting 5 in the NBA, it is no secret that having a lineup such as that takes GREAT pressure off of Lillard to perform very seldom is he doubled/trapped on offense and is not paid much attention to on the defensive end of the floor.

Outside of TS% and Win Shares what are these stats that make Damian Lillard MUCH better than John Wall?

Wall has a better PER and according to 82games.com he was #2 in Simple Rating among PGs (6th overall) and #3 in Net Rating after Kevin Love and Paul George.

The idea that Damian Lillard is way better than John Wall is absurd to say the least. It shows how people (namely you) get so hung up on stats that they forget what context means. Every single advanced passing metric there is points to John Wall being the 2nd best play making in the NBA after Chris Paul, but hey let's ignore than because once a player has a superior TS% and WS/48 that means he's automatically better. Let's ignore all context about teams, coaching, schemes etc.

I think if you watched the game you'd know why Wall gives up more points on the same shots. It's cause he is a gambler. He got torched by Steve Blake and Farmar three weeks ago. Both going 9-13 against him that game.

People tend to overrate the usefulness of the assist. Offensively, a turnover is the worst possible result and greatly damages your efficiency. The fact he turns it over six percent more of the time makes any games you get from passing much less.

And puh-leeeze. Aldrige is very inefficient on offense and the people wanting him to win MVP either wanted him to because of his elite defense and rebounding or they are dumb or they are both.

Also find it hilarious that you think Lillard has a better defensive supporting cast when two of the Wizards players are three defensive specialist.

The only thing Wall does better is passing. All you are arguing is that Wall's stats are worse because he is in a worse situation. But it's more likely he does less with less. Especially with Lillards first season being better than any season Wall has ever done and he did it while playing 40 minutes a game.

b@llhog24
01-02-2014, 11:30 PM
You're being generous, Lillard still has a loooong way to go on that side. Right now they are probably a wash overall, going forward however I think Lillard will be the better player.

I'm just really getting back in the flow of watching Blazer basketball consistently nowadays so I'm not gonna speak in absolutes. He's shown some improvements from his rookie year from what I've seen so far but I still don't have enough games under my belt (or in this season for that matter) but I'm eager to see where he goes from here. Btw average at best literally meant at best. I'd say he's below average but refer to the first point.


Despite the two being the same age this is Wall's 4th year in the league. By Lillards fourth year I think it's reasonable to expect that his playmaking ability for others would have improved, additionally given his touch its not unreasonable to expect him to add the floater into his arsenal. This will improve his ability to finish around the rim.

His playmaking will improve but I see Lillard more as a Chauncey Billups type so it'll only be so much.

j-bay
01-03-2014, 02:40 AM
John became a better player when he finally developed a jump shot. Its still not perfect, but its getting better.

EAGLES3658
01-03-2014, 05:19 AM
I think if you watched the game you'd know why Wall gives up more points on the same shots. It's cause he is a gambler. He got torched by Steve Blake and Farmar three weeks ago. Both going 9-13 against him that game.

People tend to overrate the usefulness of the assist. Offensively, a turnover is the worst possible result and greatly damages your efficiency. The fact he turns it over six percent more of the time makes any games you get from passing much less.

And puh-leeeze. Aldrige is very inefficient on offense and the people wanting him to win MVP either wanted him to because of his elite defense and rebounding or they are dumb or they are both.

Also find it hilarious that you think Lillard has a better defensive supporting cast when two of the Wizards players are three defensive specialist.

The only thing Wall does better is passing. All you are arguing is that Wall's stats are worse because he is in a worse situation. But it's more likely he does less with less. Especially with Lillards first season being better than any season Wall has ever done and he did it while playing 40 minutes a game.

Who are the Wizards defensive specialists?

Guppyfighter
01-03-2014, 08:25 AM
Ariza and Okafor when healthy.

And Wall is playing vs very bad PG's in the East to add in he has a bottle gapper.

pebloemer
01-03-2014, 09:55 AM
He's an all star, not an MVP candidate though.

Nice to see him playing really well. It will be interesting to see how he manages as the season progresses. The Wizard's have had a pretty easy schedule so far.

archdevil84
01-03-2014, 10:10 AM
The biggest PG surprise for me this year has been Isaiah Thomas since he's started for the Kings.

He's played like a top 5 PG in the league since he's started for the Kings averaging 21 and 8 on 47% shooting (45% from 3) and the guy was the last draft pick of 2011 and is 5'9. Got a love of love for Isaiah.

Isaiah Thomas is a boss

Swashcuff
01-03-2014, 12:29 PM
Ariza and Okafor when healthy.

And Wall is playing vs very bad PG's in the East to add in he has a bottle gapper.

Dude just give it up. SERIOUSLY give it up.

You just said Emeka Okafor when healthy? EMEKA OKAFOR WAS TRADED TO THE PHOENIX SUNS FOR MARCIN GORTAT BEFORE THE SEASON BEGAN.

Ariza a defensive specialist? He is FAR from a defensively specialist especially since he has been attempting to develop his offensive game year after year.

It's clear as day you don't watch Wall play or know anything about the Wizards. You watch their stats and see that Lillard is a more efficient scorer and you go ZOMG Lillard is better :laugh2:

Even the Blazers fan ball hog said Wall is better defensively as compared to Lillard who is average at best.

This dude said Wall is playing with 3 defensive specialists. Then named 2 (and you wanna masquerade around PSD as a stats guy haha) one of which was traded like 3 months ago and the other doesn't seem to care much on D anymore so how on earth can he be a specialist. Thanks for further proving all that I thought of you dude. :laugh2:

Guppyfighter
01-03-2014, 06:01 PM
Dude just give it up. SERIOUSLY give it up.

You just said Emeka Okafor when healthy? EMEKA OKAFOR WAS TRADED TO THE PHOENIX SUNS FOR MARCIN GORTAT BEFORE THE SEASON BEGAN.

Ariza a defensive specialist? He is FAR from a defensively specialist especially since he has been attempting to develop his offensive game year after year.

It's clear as day you don't watch Wall play or know anything about the Wizards. You watch their stats and see that Lillard is a more efficient scorer and you go ZOMG Lillard is better :laugh2:

Even the Blazers fan ball hog said Wall is better defensively as compared to Lillard who is average at best.

This dude said Wall is playing with 3 defensive specialists. Then named 2 (and you wanna masquerade around PSD as a stats guy haha) one of which was traded like 3 months ago and the other doesn't seem to care much on D anymore so how on earth can he be a specialist. Thanks for further proving all that I thought of you dude. :laugh2:

That was a slip up, I have no idea why I thought that, despite me being against the Gortat trade for the Wizards and commented on that a lot. I also meant to say only two.

That being said, how a Blazer fan feels doesn't change reality and how I ****ed up doesn't change objective facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf4QBFqqvFA

This game right here is a highlight reel of everything wrong with Wall defensively. We have the stats and we have the eye test of a Laker rotation killing Wall.

Now, Lillard and Wall both have similar defensive stats.

Here are the guards Lillard plays against on a regular basis

Dragic X3
Lawson X1
Parker X1
Lin X2
IT X2
Curry X1
George Hill X1
Westbrook X1
Rose X1
Jose X1
Kyrie X1
Holiday X1
Chris Paul X1


Now Wall's PG's that he plays often

Jennings X2
Wil Bynum X1
MCW X2
Chalmers X1
Deron Williams X1
Westbrook X1
Jose X2
Parker X1
Kyrie X2
Lowry X1
Felton X1
Brandon Knight X2
Jeff Teague X2
Jameer Nelson X1
Lawson X1
Avery Bradley X1
Rubio X1


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2014_games.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2014_games.html

Here are the link to both of their schedules so you can check each and every box score and see why Wall is pretty average at defense and pretty equal to Lillard. Especially since Lillard is playing tougher defensive assignments on a nightly basis.

Context goes more than one way, kid.

D-Leethal
01-03-2014, 06:12 PM
I can't fathom why anyone would even consider using defensive stats as a sole basis of "whose better on defense", ESPECIALLY for PGs.

Teams guard PG's different ways. PGs are screened 100x a game. Its not a game of 1 on 1 John Wall vs opposing PG.

A PG scoring against the Wizards doesn't mean he scored on John Wall or John Wall was the reason the PG scored. I'd say, way more often than not, given every team runs a PnR oriented offensive system, its not the fault of the defensive PG, and is usually the fault of the big man not hedging the screen properly and keeping the PG from turning the corner. That is such an elementary way to view the game. Fawn all you want over your beloved TS% but leave the defensive stats at the door - they are as flawed as flawed could possibly get.

Guppyfighter
01-03-2014, 06:29 PM
I didn't and I didn't even conclude Lillard was better at defense.

And you are being dumb again. Stop with the ******** tirades about stats.

In fact, just start gambling money on sports. And then tell me how much you know.

Swashcuff
01-03-2014, 06:55 PM
That was a slip up, I have no idea why I thought that, despite me being against the Gortat trade for the Wizards and commented on that a lot. I also meant to say only two.

That being said, how a Blazer fan feels doesn't change reality and how I ****ed up doesn't change objective facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf4QBFqqvFA

This game right here is a highlight reel of everything wrong with Wall defensively. We have the stats and we have the eye test of a Laker rotation killing Wall.

Now, Lillard and Wall both have similar defensive stats.

Here are the guards Lillard plays against on a regular basis

Dragic X3
Lawson X1
Parker X1
Lin X2
IT X2
Curry X1
George Hill X1
Westbrook X1
Rose X1
Jose X1
Kyrie X1
Holiday X1
Chris Paul X1


Now Wall's PG's that he plays often

Jennings X2
Wil Bynum X1
MCW X2
Chalmers X1
Deron Williams X1
Westbrook X1
Jose X2
Parker X1
Kyrie X2
Lowry X1
Felton X1
Brandon Knight X2
Jeff Teague X2
Jameer Nelson X1
Lawson X1
Avery Bradley X1
Rubio X1


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2014_games.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2014_games.html

Here are the link to both of their schedules so you can check each and every box score and see why Wall is pretty average at defense and pretty equal to Lillard. Especially since Lillard is playing tougher defensive assignments on a nightly basis.

Context goes more than one way, kid.

Dude don't even start to tell me what is wrong with Wall defensively the mere fact that you would say something as stupid as John Wall playing with 3 defensive specialists one of who was traded away almost 3 months ago, the other being a better than average wing and well I guess the third is a ghost.

Now you're trying to tell me that you're an expert on all things John Wall? Child please. The Blazers fans both said that Lillard wasn't good on the defensive end of the floor and here you are trying to use an eye test argument. The dudes who watch him play on a night basis are saying he's inferior to Wall. Anyone who knows basketball knows about John Wall defensive ability (not elite but certainly above average) and for you to make such statements is further testament to the fact that you are really clueless on the discussion.

It doesn't make sense going back and forth with you because truth be told I can't take any of your "analysis" seriously.

Those box score numbers you are trying to throw at me says NOTHING about John Wall or Damian Lillard as defensive players, you are trying to use that as context. How about the context of who Wall was guarding, how they played when Wall was guarding them as compared to when Wall went to the bench or Beal/Webster/Maynor/Temple was on them. :laugh2: @ you thinking using box scores is applying context.

Guppyfighter
01-03-2014, 07:01 PM
So the argument against the stats, the video, and the box scores are "Ad hominen fallacy." and "context."

Why do you think Wall is good at defense? Cause he is athletic. What does he do exceptionally well at defense? Blocks and steals. What about rotations? What about fighting through screens? Both poor.

Stop shouting the buzzword "CONTEXT! GUARDS SCORE WELL AGAINST WALL CAUSE" Now, the real question becomes is the difference between the defense of Lillard and Wall matter at all since defenses are so team oriented and usually produce results based on their teams system and players. And if that difference does matter, does it make up at all for the fact that LIllard is far more efficient on offense?

Drummond#1
01-05-2014, 02:27 AM
UPDATE: Guess who just snuck into #10 on the NBA.com MVP Ladder. With Damian Lillard two spots ahead of him at #8.

lol, please
01-05-2014, 03:55 AM
That was a slip up, I have no idea why I thought that, despite me being against the Gortat trade for the Wizards and commented on that a lot. I also meant to say only two.

That being said, how a Blazer fan feels doesn't change reality and how I ****ed up doesn't change objective facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf4QBFqqvFA

This game right here is a highlight reel of everything wrong with Wall defensively. We have the stats and we have the eye test of a Laker rotation killing Wall.

Now, Lillard and Wall both have similar defensive stats.

Here are the guards Lillard plays against on a regular basis

Dragic X3
Lawson X1
Parker X1
Lin X2
IT X2
Curry X1
George Hill X1
Westbrook X1
Rose X1
Jose X1
Kyrie X1
Holiday X1
Chris Paul X1


Now Wall's PG's that he plays often

Jennings X2
Wil Bynum X1
MCW X2
Chalmers X1
Deron Williams X1
Westbrook X1
Jose X2
Parker X1
Kyrie X2
Lowry X1
Felton X1
Brandon Knight X2
Jeff Teague X2
Jameer Nelson X1
Lawson X1
Avery Bradley X1
Rubio X1


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2014_games.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2014_games.html

Here are the link to both of their schedules so you can check each and every box score and see why Wall is pretty average at defense and pretty equal to Lillard. Especially since Lillard is playing tougher defensive assignments on a nightly basis.

Context goes more than one way, kid.
Get 'em Guppy!! :clap:

b@llhog24
01-05-2014, 03:56 AM
Get 'em Guppy!! :clap:

Lol. I love this guy.