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View Full Version : What happened to Chris Bosh's game



kingsdelez24
12-29-2013, 05:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3oNEREzM3U

I know ISO play's like he always got in Toronto are impossible to come by with LeBron and Wade, but where is this aggressiveness, this fire, this passion he used to play with in Toronto? This guy gave %110 effort and then some on boards and defense but now he barely gets 6 rebounds a game?

Will we ever see this out of Bosh again?

Chrisclover
12-29-2013, 05:10 AM
When LBJ and Wade are out of the game, he will be aggressive

Slug3
12-29-2013, 05:18 AM
Became a 3rd option. Even Jordan as a 3rd option would fall off a lot. You get less touches and less of everything. It's what he knew he was getting into.

John Walls Era
12-29-2013, 05:46 AM
what a bad time to make this thread...

Heat have the luxury to take it easy in the regular season.

akesh99
12-29-2013, 06:03 AM
It was the hair.

asandhu23
12-29-2013, 06:20 AM
It was the hair.

he could be himself in a Raptors jersey.

odiz
12-29-2013, 06:37 AM
Look what he did tonight. He could do that consistently if he was a first option. Hes so underrated because of the guys around him. For me hes the best PF in the game, he just doesnt have the usage and stats to back it up.

slashsnake
12-29-2013, 07:05 AM
Well, he was the best midrange shooter in the NBA. Just relegated to a #3 role most of the time. I don't think Harden is playing that much better since he went to Houston, just being the #1 option now.

I guess you could point to the fact that he's 3rd in scoring among players with a usage rate of under 24% over the past 4 years.

RLundi
12-29-2013, 09:12 AM
It's only because he's a third option. Bosh could easily average 22-10 as the primary scorer but sacrifices because, well, Wade and LeBron are better. Bosh is still a great player, and I think it took last night's game to be reminder of that (at least for me).

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 10:01 AM
Like others have said in the right situation Chris Bosh could easily be a top-10/top-15 player in the NBA and without questions a top-3 PF if not the best in the game. On the HEAT he is in a great situation to win but a HORRIBLE situation to put up great stats.

mike_noodles
12-29-2013, 10:04 AM
It should be noted as well that Bosh was never an elite rebounder.

Swashcuff
12-29-2013, 10:24 AM
It should be noted as well that Bosh was never an elite rebounder.

And he also was never anything special defensively, at least until he came to the Heat. He's much improved on that end of the floor now.

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 10:25 AM
It should be noted as well that Bosh was never an elite rebounder.

Never elite but in TOR always put up between 9-10 rebs per game which is solid for a PF. He plays out of position at center now so it's tougher to grab those rebounds.

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 10:26 AM
And he also was never anything special defensively, at least until he came to the Heat. He's much improved on that end of the floor now.

Yes his defense has actually been excellent in spurts especially on the perimeter he is very versatile on that end.

White_Mike
12-29-2013, 11:48 AM
Look what he did tonight. He could do that consistently if he was a first option. Hes so underrated because of the guys around him. For me hes the best PF in the game, he just doesnt have the usage and stats to back it up.
No way you can possibly put him over Kevin Love.

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 11:56 AM
No way you can possibly put him over Kevin Love.
When he was in TOR he put up Kevin Love style video game numbers on the regular and he is a much better defender. Love is great but it's closer than you think.

dodgersuck
12-29-2013, 11:58 AM
Look what he did tonight. He could do that consistently if he was a first option. Hes so underrated because of the guys around him. For me hes the best PF in the game, he just doesnt have the usage and stats to back it up.

Kevin Love says hi

Sly Guy
12-29-2013, 12:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3oNEREzM3U

I know ISO play's like he always got in Toronto are impossible to come by with LeBron and Wade, but where is this aggressiveness, this fire, this passion he used to play with in Toronto? This guy gave %110 effort and then some on boards and defense but now he barely gets 6 rebounds a game?

Will we ever see this out of Bosh again?

he was this guy in toronto. It's just the rest of the league didn't pay attention because it's toronto. And as a fan living in that city, I can tell you, watch amir, derozan and lowry.....each one of them are underrated on PSD the same way bosh was.

THE MTL
12-29-2013, 12:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3oNEREzM3U

I know ISO play's like he always got in Toronto are impossible to come by with LeBron and Wade, but where is this aggressiveness, this fire, this passion he used to play with in Toronto? This guy gave %110 effort and then some on boards and defense but now he barely gets 6 rebounds a game?

Will we ever see this out of Bosh again?

Wow u make this thread after the performance we saw last night smh

pacman16
12-29-2013, 12:36 PM
every heat game i watch, bosh gets fired up pretty easy...

Nick O
12-29-2013, 01:07 PM
that move at 2:22.. sick wicked and nasty

Nick O
12-29-2013, 01:08 PM
if he was on his own . id put him behind K-love as the best PF in the game

Wade n Fade
12-29-2013, 01:27 PM
When healthy, Love is better, but he gets hurt too much. Bosh is a lot healthier than him, thankfully.

beasted86
12-29-2013, 02:45 PM
Bosh is a two way player now and a more efficient player. But he does understandably defer to LeBron and Wade.

I think he does need to bulk back up like he was in 09-10. He lost a bunch of weight that summer and has kept it off, claiming that the extra weight caused knee issues and fatigue.

Meaze_Gibson
12-29-2013, 02:49 PM
Bosh to me is the most complete power forward. Capable of giving boards when needed, able to contain guards when switched off a a screen. good off ball defender, midrange, 3 ball,put ball on floor.

John Walls Era
12-29-2013, 02:55 PM
Bosh took a crap Raptors team to 47 wins. Love taking a good Wolves team to....

beasted86
12-29-2013, 03:04 PM
Also, some blame needs to go to Spoelstra.

He just doesn't know how to use post players. He struggled using Beasley his rookie season, and he was underutilized. He struggled with Jermaine O'Neal, until he complained about touches and then he picked it up a little but was still under used. He now doesn't use Bosh to his full ability offensively. He really doesn't run plays for Bosh. Most of them are option reads or freelancing.

Wade#Heat
12-29-2013, 03:19 PM
He lost his freakish athleticism when he bulked up coming to miami and his shot selection primarily consists of spot up mid-range to three point jumpers..

kobe4thewinbang
12-29-2013, 03:28 PM
When was this thread made? Bosh is balling at the moment. He's simply a 3rd option. But without him, I don't think Miami wins anything.

R. Johnson#3
12-29-2013, 03:46 PM
Chris Bosh's mid range jumper got better and better every single year in Toronto. That was probably his most dangerous weapon. It made defenders play tight on him which allowed him to blow by them with his speed. If he developed a back-to-basket post game then he'd pretty much have it all.

Bosh isn't putting up the numbers because he's a 3rd option. He did come up big in the playoffs last year though.

mjt20mik
12-29-2013, 03:47 PM
Bosh with either Wade or Lebron could win championships. He has been the most to sacrifice out of all of them. Going from being a perennial 20-10 guys to what he is now, takes a huge ego check. Good for him though.

kingsdelez24
12-29-2013, 04:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3oNEREzM3U

I know ISO play's like he always got in Toronto are impossible to come by with LeBron and Wade, but where is this aggressiveness, this fire, this passion he used to play with in Toronto? This guy gave %110 effort and then some on boards and defense but now he barely gets 6 rebounds a game?

Will we ever see this out of Bosh again?

he was this guy in toronto. It's just the rest of the league didn't pay attention because it's toronto. And as a fan living in that city, I can tell you, watch amir, derozan and lowry.....each one of them are underrated on PSD the same way bosh was.

Dude I live in barrie Ontario, I know how Amir and DDR play

kingsdelez24
12-29-2013, 04:23 PM
that move at 2:22.. sick wicked and nasty

Nice swirsk reference

kingsdelez24
12-29-2013, 04:25 PM
Bosh took a crap Raptors team to 47 wins. Love taking a good Wolves team to....

That years east was almost as bad as this yssrs

Bruno
12-29-2013, 04:33 PM
bosh was top five in PER before joining up with LeBron and Wade. he's a baller who's taken a third man role. his numbers and output don't reflect his ability because of his self-imposed role as the third wheel.

John Walls Era
12-29-2013, 06:12 PM
That years east was almost as bad as this yssrs

but if you're the best player at a position in the league you have to get into the playoffs in 6 years. Love's team is pretty good this year. Also the East wasn't that bad, all the team had winning records.

Red_Pill
12-29-2013, 06:58 PM
but if you're the best player at a position in the league you have to get into the playoffs in 6 years. Love's team is pretty good this year. Also the East wasn't that bad, all the team had winning records.

Wolves have, to date, a top 3 strength of schedule. That, and inconsistency from Rubio, Brewer, and Martin, plus the leagues worst bench. Please, you have no idea what you're talking about. Give the wolves a solid bench, and we're a top 5 seed. Love has been doing everything he can. Pekovic has been the only consistent wolves player besides Love.

KingPosey
12-29-2013, 07:05 PM
It's usually scoring wings that go to contenders and are asked to adapt their game after always being a leading scorer, and time after time it's like once you turn off that "edge", they lose something they never can quite turn back on. They help their teams win and are great in their role a lot of the time but its like once they are asked to become a supporting act they don't remember how to be the main attraction.

beasted86
12-29-2013, 08:27 PM
Wolves have, to date, a top 3 strength of schedule. That, and inconsistency from Rubio, Brewer, and Martin, plus the leagues worst bench. Please, you have no idea what you're talking about. Give the wolves a solid bench, and we're a top 5 seed. Love has been doing everything he can. Pekovic has been the only consistent wolves player besides Love.
Excuses that pile on every year. First it is the coach, then David Kahn, then injuries, then the forever standing bailout is he plays in the western conference.

Lets forget about winning a championship, the playoffs, or even a winning record at this point. Lets start at the basics of other non-playoff teams and why that team has more wins than Love's Wolves. 2 years ago the Suns with a 37 yr old Nash with just Gortat and a bunch of role players went 33-33 for a .500 record. Are you really telling me that the 2011-12 Suns had so much more talent than the Wolves that only went 26-40 that same year? In 2012-13 he was out the first couple games, but was handed a team 1 game over .500 at 5-4. In the 18 games he played, he didn't improve their record. They went to 15-14 before he got injured.

Do you really think if LeBron or Durant or Chris Paul was injured, their team went .500 over the first 9 games, they came back, the team would only go .500 over the next 18 games? Be realistic. Love scores and rebounds, but isn't a complete player and doesn't seemingly make the guys around him much better. Very good player, but not as elite as most of you think.

NetsPaint
12-29-2013, 09:04 PM
What do all of you think of Bosh being the first or second scoring option for a while in the regular season as an experiment for the Playoffs? Having an efficient big man be more of a focus point on offense could improve them and himself.

blahblahyoutoo
12-29-2013, 09:07 PM
nothing is wrong with bosh's game. i've always been a stout defender of his even when heat fans were down on him saying he's soft of d and rebounding.
at this point, I would keep bosh over wade if it came down to choosing one.

ThaDubs
12-29-2013, 09:07 PM
It should be noted as well that Bosh was never an elite rebounder.

He averaged 10-11 rebounds and 3 ORs in his best years with the Raptors.

flea
12-29-2013, 09:11 PM
This thread is so goddamn dumb. He's anchored a team that went to the last 3 Finals and someone thinks he's gotten worse because his PPG and RPG are not as high as when he played for a lottery team. All we need now is a PER comparison with bench players and we've got all the makings of your run-of-the-mill brain cell draining PSD NBA forum thread.

5ass
12-29-2013, 10:15 PM
This thread is so goddamn dumb. He's anchored a team that went to the last 3 Finals and someone thinks he's gotten worse because his PPG and RPG are not as high as when he played for a lottery team. All we need now is a PER comparison with bench players and we've got all the makings of your run-of-the-mill brain cell draining PSD NBA forum thread.

Anchored?

flea
12-29-2013, 10:21 PM
On defense.

5ass
12-29-2013, 10:30 PM
No, bron is the teams best and most impactful defender. Bosh is barely avg defender at the center position.

D-Leethal
12-29-2013, 11:44 PM
Its not easy to dumb your game down and thrive in a lesser role. Some guys are meant to be first/second option all stars and need the touches and plays ran for them to peak as a player. Some guys can't handle more than table scrap touches and those guys are usually the ones who bring the hustle, intangible play to the table. Offensive stars normally don't succeed in roles that are designed for role players. Its tough for Bosh to make a big positive impact when his catch and shoot game isn't on fire or LeBron/Wade aren't injured.

Swashcuff
12-30-2013, 12:44 AM
On defense.

Anchor is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to strong of a word. No anchor allows Roy Hibbert to go absolutely ballistic again his team. What Dwight Howard did in getting the Magic to the finals was anchoring. Bosh was solid defensively that's about it.

Swashcuff
12-30-2013, 12:57 AM
but if you're the best player at a position in the league you have to get into the playoffs in 6 years. Love's team is pretty good this year. Also the East wasn't that bad, all the team had winning records.

Let's apply a simple thing called context to this "argument".

In his first season Love was a rookie who was in running for SMOY. I've never heard of a rookie coming off the bench being considered the best PF in the game.

2nd season he made considerable strides but once more he wasn't considered as the best in the game as he was STILL a 6th man behind Al Jefferson.

3rd season he finally became an all star and threw his name into the conversation of the best PFs in the game wasn't the best though.

4th season aside from having a poor supporting case the "regular" starters missed like 25% of their teams games due to injury or something of the sort.

5th season he basically missed the entire year.

6th season now his best shot yet with the best supporting cast he has ever had. Too bad however only Martin and Pek are playing like above average NBA starters and probably the worst bench in the game. Not really what you'd call a formula for success in the West. This is the first season where the majority are in agreement that he is the best PF in the game.

Tell me what PF currently in the NBA can do more than what Love has done with his Wolves.

John Walls Era
12-30-2013, 12:59 AM
No, bron is the teams best and most impactful defender. Bosh is barely avg defender at the center position.

Good perimeter defense and good on pick and rollls.

Chronz
12-30-2013, 01:17 AM
Let's apply a simple thing called context to this "argument".

In his first season Love was a rookie who was in running for SMOY. I've never heard of a rookie coming off the bench being considered the best PF in the game.

2nd season he made considerable strides but once more he wasn't considered as the best in the game as he was STILL a 6th man behind Al Jefferson.

3rd season he finally became an all star and threw his name into the conversation of the best PFs in the game wasn't the best though.

4th season aside from having a poor supporting case the "regular" starters missed like 25% of their teams games due to injury or something of the sort.

5th season he basically missed the entire year.

6th season now his best shot yet with the best supporting cast he has ever had. Too bad however only Martin and Pek are playing like above average NBA starters and probably the worst bench in the game. Not really what you'd call a formula for success in the West. This is the first season where the majority are in agreement that he is the best PF in the game.

Tell me what PF currently in the NBA can do more than what Love has done with his Wolves.

Excellent rebuttal , prepare for off topic flame

dtmagnet
12-30-2013, 01:51 AM
He really is too good to be a 3rd option, I get that he wanted championships but you had to know his game would decline a bit playing with those two guys.

John Walls Era
12-30-2013, 01:57 AM
Let's apply a simple thing called context to this "argument".

In his first season Love was a rookie who was in running for SMOY. I've never heard of a rookie coming off the bench being considered the best PF in the game.

2nd season he made considerable strides but once more he wasn't considered as the best in the game as he was STILL a 6th man behind Al Jefferson.

3rd season he finally became an all star and threw his name into the conversation of the best PFs in the game wasn't the best though.

4th season aside from having a poor supporting case the "regular" starters missed like 25% of their teams games due to injury or something of the sort.

5th season he basically missed the entire year.

6th season now his best shot yet with the best supporting cast he has ever had. Too bad however only Martin and Pek are playing like above average NBA starters and probably the worst bench in the game. Not really what you'd call a formula for success in the West. This is the first season where the majority are in agreement that he is the best PF in the game.

Tell me what PF currently in the NBA can do more than what Love has done with his Wolves.

Starting in his 3rd year he was considered the one of the best. He should've gotten them at least an 8th seed by now. Thats 4 seasons (minus one because of the injury). Is it a coincidence that every other star player has been in the playoffs and poor Kevin Love was the only Olympian who never got the taste of a playoff game? Many superstars have gotten their bad teams into the playoffs and the Timberwolves are much more talented than some of those teams.

John Walls Era
12-30-2013, 01:58 AM
Excellent rebuttal , prepare for off topic flame

No need, but if you want we can talk about Tmac's failures. Almost as badly as Kevin Love.

ntd
12-30-2013, 02:01 AM
Became a 3rd option. Even Jordan as a 3rd option would fall off a lot. You get less touches and less of everything. It's what he knew he was getting into.

Jordan was never a 3rd option. Even in his last season he averaged 20 ppg.

Chronz
12-30-2013, 02:03 AM
No need, but if you want we can talk about Tmac's failures. Almost as badly as Kevin Love.

Feel free. I just love making you go ghost.

Chronz
12-30-2013, 02:03 AM
Many superstars have gotten their bad teams into the playoffs and the Timberwolves are much more talented than some of those teams.

Such as?

flea
12-30-2013, 02:09 AM
It's a terrible and stupid argument because nobody has dethroned Duncan.

Chronz
12-30-2013, 03:09 AM
It's a terrible and stupid argument because nobody has dethroned Duncan.

Agreed (for playoffs anyways), and even Duncan doesn't have to log heavy minutes to get his team the first seed. Thats how much of a team game this is

mrblisterdundee
12-30-2013, 04:01 AM
I, a Blazers fan, was in a Portland bar watching the game against Miami and said to my compatriots that Bosh is basically as good as LaMarcus Aldridge. There were three seasons in Toronto where he did what Aldridge is doing now.
He's just in a different situation right now. If LeBron James left, I could see Chris Bosh being the main guy again, with Dwyane Wade and Michael Beasley as second and third options, respectively.

beasted86
12-30-2013, 04:15 AM
Such as?

08-09 & 09-10 Miami HEAT.

People need to stop being apologists for Kevin Love. Why didn't anyone respond to my earlier post of comparing teams in the same conference that are simply better.

Look at this year for another prime example. Why is it that the Phoenix Suns are 18-11 while the T'Wolves are 15-15?

Don't tell me the Suns have more talent because they don't. Don't tell me they have a better rated offense or defense because they don't either. Don't cry about playing in the western conference or strength of schedule because the two teams are neck and neck.

It's really simply one team if the playoffs started today would be a 6th seed and the other a lottery team. One team has the supposed 3rd - 4th best player in the NBA according to the excuse makers, the other might not have a single all-star or top 20 NBA player.

IKnowHoops
12-30-2013, 05:30 AM
Hey, at the end of the day, Kevin Love is balling. I don't want to hear why his team isn't better. Its just so tired that people can look at a team see a guy that is giving you Lebron or Kevin Love type numbers, then see that the player has way to many teammates averaging single digits on less than 40% shooting and somehow blame the guy who is balling.

Its not rocket science. If a guy is putting up 24 and 14 with good efficiency and his team is garbage, then that means his teammates are garbage and they are not getting it done. Stop!!!!!!!! blaming ballers for loosing.

Seems like a lot of you forgot its a team game, or that even the greatest player to ever play the game got rolled in the playoffs because his teammates weren't good enough.

If you put up 24 and 14 your not the reason your team is loosing. Your the reason they are not loosing by more.

Shlumpledink
12-30-2013, 05:52 AM
It is hard to get rebounds in the nba when you are around guys who actually rebound the ball. Wade, and Lebron are both very good rebounders. In the raptors bosh was playing with bargnani as his big man, bargnani avoids rebounds.

Someone on your team is going to get rebounds, it is a given that your bigmen will combine for 20 rebounds a night.

It is also a given that your team is going to average at least 90 points a game for the season. Someone is going to be putting the ball in the basket more than others, it is just going to happen.

Bosh was overrated in his time in toronto, and underrated in his time in miami. He is not as bad as his worst game, or as good as his best. He is still very athletic for a bigman, with a nice jump shot. I really like his position, and help defense. He is not a very good rebounder though, he just benefited from an optimal situation.

Swashcuff
12-30-2013, 12:34 PM
Starting in his 3rd year he was considered the one of the best. He should've gotten them at least an 8th seed by now. Thats 4 seasons (minus one because of the injury). Is it a coincidence that every other star player has been in the playoffs and poor Kevin Love was the only Olympian who never got the taste of a playoff game? Many superstars have gotten their bad teams into the playoffs and the Timberwolves are much more talented than some of those teams.

Wait is this season over? Are we even halfway through this season? The Wolves can still make the playoffs if their bench can start pulling their weight.

You are on record of saying how horrendous you think Ricky Rubio is as a player. Doesn't that too hurt Love's team case? You are completely ignorant every single tangible factor and saying that if he is the best at his position he should make the playoffs. That's not how it works in a team game if your support isn't giving you anything.

Chronz
12-30-2013, 12:53 PM
08-09 & 09-10 Miami HEAT.
Led by a guy named Wade in an easier conference. Not seeing how Love not being better than Peak Wade is something to be ashamed of. Nobody has ever claimed hes better than Wade.


People need to stop being apologists for Kevin Love. Why didn't anyone respond to my earlier post of comparing teams in the same conference that are simply better.

I try not to pick on the same people. Seriously tho I didn't see it.


Look at this year for another prime example. Why is it that the Phoenix Suns are 18-11 while the T'Wolves are 15-15?
Because not every loss and win is created equally, make no mistake, the T'Wolves have been the better team.



Don't tell me the Suns have more talent because they don't. Don't tell me they have a better rated offense or defense because they don't either. Don't cry about playing in the western conference or strength of schedule because the two teams are neck and neck.
But thats a lie, the Wolves are rated higher in both categories. And how do you define talent? The Wolves have the best player and the Suns have more players playing at a higher level than the support around Love.


It's really simply one team if the playoffs started today would be a 6th seed and the other a lottery team. One team has the supposed 3rd - 4th best player in the NBA according to the excuse makers, the other might not have a single all-star or top 20 NBA player.
I dont know about ur individual rankings but why would I care about the argument if the playoffs started today when there are still so many games to play? Contextually, looking at records right now tell us very little considering the differing opponents.

Like I said when the T'Wolves were below .500, the tide is turning and they will recover. Sure enough they've reeled off some W's. So long as nobody gets hurt (considering how depleted that roster is anyways) they should get in. The only way they dont is if they are as unclutch/unlucky as they have been in close games.

beasted86
12-30-2013, 01:54 PM
Led by a guy named Wade in an easier conference. Not seeing how Love not being better than Peak Wade is something to be ashamed of. Nobody has ever claimed hes better than Wade.


I try not to pick on the same people. Seriously tho I didn't see it.


Because not every loss and win is created equally, make no mistake, the T'Wolves have been the better team.



But thats a lie, the Wolves are rated higher in both categories. And how do you define talent? The Wolves have the best player and the Suns have more players playing at a higher level than the support around Love.


I dont know about ur individual rankings but why would I care about the argument if the playoffs started today when there are still so many games to play? Contextually, looking at records right now tell us very little considering the differing opponents.

Like I said when the T'Wolves were below .500, the tide is turning and they will recover. Sure enough they've reeled off some W's. So long as nobody gets hurt (considering how depleted that roster is anyways) they should get in. The only way they dont is if they are as unclutch/unlucky as they have been in close games.

Wade had even worse talent than Love has now. Do the excuses and bailouts ever stop?

You can continue making excuses all you'd like while the T'Wolves continue losing games. Suns are rated below them in offense and defense rating. Suns are 10th in strength of schedule, T'Wolves are 9th. Suns have an estimated win/loss of 17-12 but are actually 18-11. T'Wolves have an expected win/loss of 19-11 but are only 15-15. If/when they miss the playoffs again the reason will still be injuries, teammates, coach, GM, western conference, division, act of God... but will never touch on Kevin Love lack of defense, leadership or making guys around him better.

Let me reiterate, I think Love is a very good player. Just not elite, and doesn't make players around him better. Realistically shouldn't get one single 1st place MVP vote by the media.

kdspurman
12-30-2013, 01:59 PM
It's a terrible and stupid argument because nobody has dethroned Duncan.

Yea, and it's really because of Duncan's consistency and superior defense. These guys don't come close defensively, but I guess it's a different time now. The bar was set rather high, but it's fun to debate it anyway.

Chronz
12-30-2013, 02:00 PM
Wade had even worse talent than Love has now. Do the excuses and bailouts ever stop?

Youre missing the point. Nobody has ever claimed hes better than Wade.


You can continue making excuses all you'd like while the T'Wolves continue losing games. Suns are rated below them in offense and defense rating. Suns are 10th in strength of schedule, T'Wolves are 9th. Suns have an estimated win/loss of 17-12 but are actually 18-11. T'Wolves have an expected win/loss of 19-11 but are only 15-15.
Yes, I never contested any of that. Thats actually what gives me faith that they make the playoffs, do you know how these numbers tend to bear out over the long haul?


If/when they miss the playoffs again the reason will still be injuries, coach, GM, western conference, and division... but will never touch on Kevin Love lack of defense, leadership or making guys around him better.
Why would they when hes clearly making his teammates better? Do you even watch them? Have you seen how horribly they all play when hes not out there?


Let me reiterate, I think Love is a very good player. Just not elite, and doesn't make players around him better. Realistically shouldn't get one single 1st place MVP vote by the media
Cool?

beasted86
12-30-2013, 02:09 PM
@IKnowHoops

Nobody is disputing Love's stats being good or not. It's always been a debate on his impact as a player, since there is such thing as empty stats that don't contribute to wins like other elite players.

There is a history of players in the NBA who have put up good stats and their team never won a championship, and some couldn't even make the conference finals.

Elgin Baylor, Dominique Wilkins, etc etc...you know the guys I'm talking about. All of these guys are lowered in top players of all time rankings because of it. The same tradition continues in current rankings and trying to place Love where he ranks today.

Wade n Fade
12-30-2013, 02:21 PM
@IKnowHoops

Nobody is disputing Love's stats being good or not. It's always been a debate on his impact as a player, since there is such thing as empty stats that don't contribute to wins like other elite players.

There is a history of players in the NBA who have put up good stats and their team never won a championship, and some couldn't even make the conference finals.

Elgin Baylor, Dominique Wilkins, etc etc...you know the guys I'm talking about. All of these guys are lowered in top players of all time rankings because of it. The same tradition continues in current rankings and trying to place Love where he ranks today.

I would like to give Love a chance on a contender to see if he can do well. Chris Webber is a PF that did well for years and should've won a title with Sacramento (we all know the WCF story....) I can see Love leaving Minny easily because of the lack of living up to the potential w/ Rubio shooting bricks, Martin being the lone other scorer, and Nikola Pekovic as the lone other player. The rest is just like meh. 15-15 right now, and if they can make a run in the West, that changes everything.

The situation is getting close to good for Minny. OKC lost Westbrook. Portland is still redhot, but their fall from grace or aka the law of averages should kick in soon.

beasted86
12-30-2013, 04:45 PM
I would like to give Love a chance on a contender to see if he can do well. Chris Webber is a PF that did well for years and should've won a title with Sacramento (we all know the WCF story....) I can see Love leaving Minny easily because of the lack of living up to the potential w/ Rubio shooting bricks, Martin being the lone other scorer, and Nikola Pekovic as the lone other player. The rest is just like meh. 15-15 right now, and if they can make a run in the West, that changes everything.

The situation is getting close to good for Minny. OKC lost Westbrook. Portland is still redhot, but their fall from grace or aka the law of averages should kick in soon.

Well career wise, I haven't seen this before. I've never seen a guy put up multiple 18+/10+ seasons for his first 6 years, be named multiple all-stars and not make the playoffs. The closest match career trajectory wise Love has so far is Elton Brand.

His first 5 seasons he couldn't get his team into the playoffs, then he was able to get his team to the 2nd round in his 6th. But overall career wise, Brand despite having good career numbers and being a superb defender, isn't regarded as one of the best. Probably not even a top 20 PF all time.

Sactown
12-30-2013, 05:51 PM
Well career wise, I haven't seen this before. I've never seen a guy put up multiple 18+/10+ seasons for his first 6 years, be named multiple all-stars and not make the playoffs. The closest match career trajectory wise Love has so far is Elton Brand.

His first 5 seasons he couldn't get his team into the playoffs, then he was able to get his team to the 2nd round in his 6th. But overall career wise, Brand despite having good career numbers and being a superb defender, isn't regarded as one of the best. Probably not even a top 20 PF all time.

The problem with the Wolves is without Love there's nobody who can produce anything individually, they don't have very many shot creators, and the one they were suppose to have can't shoot for ****.. everyone on the roster needs someone to get them their shots, and on top of that their bench is horrid.. you can't continue to blame Love for their losses when he's doing everything he can to will them to a win...

You can argue maybe he's not a very good leader (I personally don't know) but his team significantly drops off without him on the floor and I don't think any amount of leadership will change that.. they just seem lost and stagnant without him.

beasted86
12-30-2013, 06:14 PM
The problem with the Wolves is without Love there's nobody who can produce anything individually, they don't have very many shot creators, and the one they were suppose to have can't shoot for ****.. everyone on the roster needs someone to get them their shots, and on top of that their bench is horrid.. you can't continue to blame Love for their losses when he's doing everything he can to will them to a win...

You can argue maybe he's not a very good leader (I personally don't know) but his team significantly drops off without him on the floor and I don't think any amount of leadership will change that.. they just seem lost and stagnant without him.

The Warriors and Blazers have the 3rd and 4th worst benches in the league.

How about we forget about the bench, forget about the assist number, and talk about why the Wolves are the worst at defending the rim in the NBA? How about Love takes some of that blame along with Pekovic for being poor defenders only focused on getting rebounds rather than moving their feet, hedging on screens, trapping harder, altering more shots, rotating hard out to shooters... those types of things.

Sactown
12-30-2013, 08:38 PM
The Warriors and Blazers have the 3rd and 4th worst benches in the league.

How about we forget about the bench, forget about the assist number, and talk about why the Wolves are the worst at defending the rim in the NBA? How about Love takes some of that blame along with Pekovic for being poor defenders only focused on getting rebounds rather than moving their feet, hedging on screens, trapping harder, altering more shots, rotating hard out to shooters... those types of things.

Give me an example of a post player that doesn't lack in any facet of the game? Obviously KLove isn't fantastic at everything, but the guy is an ELITE scorer who can do damage in the post and the perimeter, he can play late in the game because he's a great free throw shooter. Also he's an elite rebounder in the league, oh and he can find the open man and is a solid passer.. just because the guy isn't a great rim protector doesn't mean that exiles him from elite, or that he's the reason the team is .500

John Walls Era
12-30-2013, 09:00 PM
Feel free. I just love making you go ghost.

I never go ghost aka Tmac. I just don't check your replies every 10 seconds.


Such as?

Chris Bosh
Lebron
Kobe during Smush Parker saga
Tmac (the year Yao got hurt and they went on that huge winning streak --- most of the players on that team isn't even playing)

Just to name a few.

John Walls Era
12-30-2013, 09:04 PM
Wait is this season over? Are we even halfway through this season? The Wolves can still make the playoffs if their bench can start pulling their weight.

You are on record of saying how horrendous you think Ricky Rubio is as a player. Doesn't that too hurt Love's team case? You are completely ignorant every single tangible factor and saying that if he is the best at his position he should make the playoffs. That's not how it works in a team game if your support isn't giving you anything.

I never said this. I love how my truth-telling gets nitpicked. I talk about Dwight's inconsistency and it becomes "Dwight hating". I talk about Rubio's terrible scoring ability and all of a sudden I think hes "horrendous"? Rubio is very solid at other facets of the game.

His team is not bad. Basketball is one of the only team sports (more like me-team sport) where 1 superstar player can suddenly make a team into a borderline playoff team. In a real team sport like football or soccer, this is not the case.

beasted86
12-30-2013, 09:11 PM
Give me an example of a post player that doesn't lack in any facet of the game? Obviously KLove isn't fantastic at everything, but the guy is an ELITE scorer who can do damage in the post and the perimeter, he can play late in the game because he's a great free throw shooter. Also he's an elite rebounder in the league, oh and he can find the open man and is a solid passer.. just because the guy isn't a great rim protector doesn't mean that exiles him from elite, or that he's the reason the team is .500

Again you seem to be missing the point. Love puts up great scoring and rebounding stats, but that seems to be all he does.

Swashcuff
12-30-2013, 11:18 PM
I never said this. I love how my truth-telling gets nitpicked. I talk about Dwight's inconsistency and it becomes "Dwight hating". I talk about Rubio's terrible scoring ability and all of a sudden I think hes "horrendous"? Rubio is very solid at other facets of the game.

His team is not bad. Basketball is one of the only team sports (more like me-team sport) where 1 superstar player can suddenly make a team into a borderline playoff team. In a real team sport like football or soccer, this is not the case.


LOLOLOLOL

Rubio isnt even better than me on offense.


Definitely, Rubio was never good. People love to point out his 3 nice passes a game. Ok fine, but he can't make a shot to save his life. Which is crazy given hes paid to play bball. Hes literally missing wide open shots...


Hes not good. Never said he was good, never liked him.


Rubio plays good D, I will give him that. But so did Lindsay Hunter.


:yawn:

Always said he sucked. I thought I was finally wrong when I said Jennings was better when they were both in Europe, but Jennings is playing a bit better this year than the Stinky Fly.

Say what now? And all of this is in one thread.

Saying that the Wolves team isn't bad shows that you must NOT be paying attention to the Wolves fans here on PSD or anywhere for that matter. They are constantly complaining about the fact that Martin started off nicely then seem to lose any semblance of a shooting game on stretches on end, Brewer while having his bright spots isn't an NBA caliber starter at least not yet, how they literally have ONE good player on their bench and even he has been poor this season.

The Wolves when Kevin Love is on the floor and when he's off the floor are two TOTALLY different teams, this has been the case ever since he set foot on to the NBA floor. If you watch Wolves ball at all you'd see how their offense goes stagnant when he isn't on the floor, there is not one drawing double teams there is no one who can create a shot for themselves and their running game is cut in half because those outlet passes that Love throws better than anyone since Walton aren't there.

Swashcuff
12-30-2013, 11:28 PM
Again you seem to be missing the point. Love puts up great scoring and rebounding stats, but that seems to be all he does.

He'll most likely finish this season as the first player since MVP KG to lead all bigs in scoring, rebounding and assists in the same season but yeah all he does is rebound. In case you haven't noticed Kevin Love has grown leaps and bounds as a man defender in the paint. If you think all he does is score and rebound you're still living in 2010.

John Walls Era
12-30-2013, 11:43 PM
Say what now? And all of this is in one thread.

Saying that the Wolves team isn't bad shows that you must NOT be paying attention to the Wolves fans here on PSD or anywhere for that matter. They are constantly complaining about the fact that Martin started off nicely then seem to lose any semblance of a shooting game on stretches on end, Brewer while having his bright spots isn't an NBA caliber starter at least not yet, how they literally have ONE good player on their bench and even he has been poor this season.

The Wolves when Kevin Love is on the floor and when he's off the floor are two TOTALLY different teams, this has been the case ever since he set foot on to the NBA floor. If you watch Wolves ball at all you'd see how their offense goes stagnant when he isn't on the floor, there is not one drawing double teams there is no one who can create a shot for themselves and their running game is cut in half because those outlet passes that Love throws better than anyone since Walton aren't there.

Yeah I didn't say he was horrendous. I gave him credit for playmaking and great D!

I said Love isn't a winner, I didn't say he wasnt an all-star. Of course he makes the wolves better, he just doesn't make them great which a best player @ their position should do. Again, nitpicking my truth-telling.

beasted86
12-31-2013, 04:23 AM
He'll most likely finish this season as the first player since MVP KG to lead all bigs in scoring, rebounding and assists in the same season but yeah all he does is rebound. In case you haven't noticed Kevin Love has grown leaps and bounds as a man defender in the paint. If you think all he does is score and rebound you're still living in 2010.

Love has a putrid block rate for a guy who spends a decent amount of minutes at Center and plays over 36 minutes.

His team is also dead last in the NBA at defending the restricted area.

Whatever improvements he made as a defender don't seem to making as big of an impact on the team's defense as it should, much like the rest of his stats.

People talk about his impact of making his teammates better, well basically all the rotation players on his current team were better last year without him. Pek, Rubio, Martin, Brewer, Barea and Cunningham... every single one of them are having a step back year in efficiency vs. last year so far.

Coincidence? Maybe. At some point though you guys are going to step back and realize all these excuses and coincidences and "luck" have something in common.

This again tonight on the heels of the Suns figuring out a way to beat the Clippers while the Wolves again fall short to a Mavericks team that did whatever they wanted in the paint all night long as per the usual course.

Swashcuff
12-31-2013, 08:57 AM
Love has a putrid block rate for a guy who spends a decent amount of minutes at Center and plays over 36 minutes.

His team is also dead last in the NBA at defending the restricted area.

Whatever improvements he made as a defender don't seem to making as big of an impact on the team's defense as it should, much like the rest of his stats.

People talk about his impact of making his teammates better, well basically all the rotation players on his current team were better last year without him. Pek, Rubio, Martin, Brewer, Barea and Cunningham... every single one of them are having a step back year in efficiency vs. last year so far.

Coincidence? Maybe. At some point though you guys are going to step back and realize all these excuses and coincidences and "luck" have something in common.

This again tonight on the heels of the Suns figuring out a way to beat the Clippers while the Wolves again fall short to a Mavericks team that did whatever they wanted in the paint all night long as per the usual course.

The thing about your Suns vs Wolves argument essentially shows how you are guilty of not watching and understand the way a team plays you simply watch the box scores the players on paper and think there is no way that team should be so good. Well the Suns play MUCH better on the floor than they look on paper. Goran Dragic and Eric Bledsoe have both made strides this season that will throw them into the top 6-8 PG discussion they have one of the best benches in the NBA with Gerald Green, Markieff and Marcus all playing hands down the best basketball of their careers. They play solid team D and is very well coached by Jeff Hornacek.

If you watched that game you'd see that the Clippers had their 2nd worst shooting night of the season and just couldn't get anything to fall from the field, it was basically a mirror image of their game against the Cavs which they mustered up a season low 80 points. Last night was their 2nd lowest output of the season.

Also how on earth can a sensible man blame Kevin Love for his team losing last night, before the last second call (or rather no call) where he was clear as day slapped on the hand as he shot the ball Rubio had a costly turnover. When the Mavs built a 20 point lead it was Love scoring 12 of his 31 in the third and helping his team get back into it.

Also what does Love MAN D have to do with his team being the worst in the league at defending the rim? Martin, Brewer and surprisingly Rubio haven't done any kind of job at keeping their man from getting into the painted area. Pekovic is your C who spends a great majority of his time in the paint, much more time than Love does he is your enforcer inside.

I find it funny that you blame Kevin Love for Pekovic's play when anyone who knows Pek KNOWS he's a slow starter, Kevin Martin wasn't even on the Wolves last season and if not for his recent shooting slump (which he is NOTORIOUS for) was having one of the best starts of his career.

I find it odd that you would say Pek has taken a step back in efficiency when you yourself don't believe in advanced statistics. His basic numbers are better than last season.

Swashcuff
12-31-2013, 09:01 AM
Yeah I didn't say he was horrendous. I gave him credit for playmaking and great D!

I said Love isn't a winner, I didn't say he wasnt an all-star. Of course he makes the wolves better, he just doesn't make them great which a best player @ their position should do. Again, nitpicking my truth-telling.

You said you were better than him on offense (which is play making and scoring) you compared him to Lindsay Hunter you said he sucked and that he wasn't any good but yeah you don't think he's horrendous right.

What I realize about people who continuously pat themselves on the back saying "I am telling the truth" its usually that they sit back read what they say and think that they know it all. Your posts recently on PSD reflect just that.

basketfan4life
12-31-2013, 09:19 AM
I too think he is one of the best pf in the game with Kevin Love and still Dirk Nowitzki. The Heat is a perfect team, best player in the game, top 3 pf, top 3 sg and a lot of good role players. I don't give east teams any chance againist the Heat. Only OKC has enough fire power to hang with them.

Minimal
12-31-2013, 10:43 AM
I too think he is one of the best pf in the game with Kevin Love and still Dirk Nowitzki. The Heat is a perfect team, best player in the game, top 3 pf, top 3 sg and a lot of good role players. I don't give east teams any chance againist the Heat. Only OKC has enough fire power to hang with them.
The best SG in the game

FlashBolt
12-31-2013, 11:37 AM
I too think he is one of the best pf in the game with Kevin Love and still Dirk Nowitzki. The Heat is a perfect team, best player in the game, top 3 pf, top 3 sg and a lot of good role players. I don't give east teams any chance againist the Heat. Only OKC has enough fire power to hang with them.

Are you insane? Anthony Davis is definitely top 3; not Bosh or Dirk.

John Walls Era
12-31-2013, 12:13 PM
You said you were better than him on offense (which is play making and scoring) you compared him to Lindsay Hunter you said he sucked and that he wasn't any good but yeah you don't think he's horrendous right.

What I realize about people who continuously pat themselves on the back saying "I am telling the truth" its usually that they sit back read what they say and think that they know it all. Your posts recently on PSD reflect just that.

I don't think I know it all, but anything I comment, it means I know THAT specific topic.

Yeah his scoring sucks, the thread was about Rubio's scoring...

beasted86
12-31-2013, 01:07 PM
The thing about your Suns vs Wolves argument essentially shows how you are guilty of not watching and understand the way a team plays you simply watch the box scores the players on paper and think there is no way that team should be so good. Well the Suns play MUCH better on the floor than they look on paper. Goran Dragic and Eric Bledsoe have both made strides this season that will throw them into the top 6-8 PG discussion they have one of the best benches in the NBA with Gerald Green, Markieff and Marcus all playing hands down the best basketball of their careers. They play solid team D and is very well coached by Jeff Hornacek.

If you watched that game you'd see that the Clippers had their 2nd worst shooting night of the season and just couldn't get anything to fall from the field, it was basically a mirror image of their game against the Cavs which they mustered up a season low 80 points. Last night was their 2nd lowest output of the season.

Also how on earth can a sensible man blame Kevin Love for his team losing last night, before the last second call (or rather no call) where he was clear as day slapped on the hand as he shot the ball Rubio had a costly turnover. When the Mavs built a 20 point lead it was Love scoring 12 of his 31 in the third and helping his team get back into it.

Also what does Love MAN D have to do with his team being the worst in the league at defending the rim? Martin, Brewer and surprisingly Rubio haven't done any kind of job at keeping their man from getting into the painted area. Pekovic is your C who spends a great majority of his time in the paint, much more time than Love does he is your enforcer inside.

I find it funny that you blame Kevin Love for Pekovic's play when anyone who knows Pek KNOWS he's a slow starter, Kevin Martin wasn't even on the Wolves last season and if not for his recent shooting slump (which he is NOTORIOUS for) was having one of the best starts of his career.

I find it odd that you would say Pek has taken a step back in efficiency when you yourself don't believe in advanced statistics. His basic numbers are better than last season.

I don't think the context you guys use TS is accurate, I have no problem with the stat itself.

When you are using TS to compare & contrast entire teams or the same player on the same team from one year to the next it is useful.

When you are comparing two different guys from different teams with different usage, assisted rates, tov rates, and coaching systems and then using a singular box statistic to claim one guys a better scorer than the other, then yes, it's an approach with cheese holes in the logic that is inherently flawed. I've long been on record that you guys use TS incorrectly.

Lim
12-31-2013, 03:03 PM
Chris Bosh is easily better than Love as a #1 option.

mike_noodles
12-31-2013, 03:25 PM
Never elite but in TOR always put up between 9-10 rebs per game which is solid for a PF. He plays out of position at center now so it's tougher to grab those rebounds.


He averaged 10-11 rebounds and 3 ORs in his best years with the Raptors.


Yeah, he was a good rebounder, but not elite. Those numbers in Toronto were slightly inflated due to the lack of rebounding around him (see Bargnani and a list of terrible SF's during his tenure).

Swashcuff
12-31-2013, 03:52 PM
I don't think the context you guys use TS is accurate, I have no problem with the stat itself.

When you are using TS to compare & contrast entire teams or the same player on the same team from one year to the next it is useful.

When you are comparing two different guys from different teams with different usage, assisted rates, tov rates, and coaching systems and then using a singular box statistic to claim one guys a better scorer than the other, then yes, it's an approach with cheese holes in the logic that is inherently flawed. I've long been on record that you guys use TS incorrectly.

Its funny because the actual inventors of TS% and the ones who actually earn a living as execs in the NBA use TS% in the same manner that we do.

I can't speak for everyone but as I say with every single stat it won't tell you the whole picture and apparently that is what you want from advanced stats for it to tell you everything or you think that I think that way.

I said it countless times and apparently I'll have to continue saying it countless times after. If a player has a greater TS% than another its means just that he has a better True Shooting Percentage. Nothing else, I never use it as a claim that one player is better than another or a better scorer or whatever, it simply means that by one of the best measures of efficiency he is a more efficient scorer than the other player.

I think the biggest flaw is your understanding of the context in which those who advocate TS% and other advanced stats use them. I remember you chastising TS% as a stat, you may have changed your opinion since our last conversation but you are also on the record of saying that TS% isn't a real stat as you believed the weights were inaccurate and it holds no ground on telling a player's scoring efficiency. I vividly remember you saying FG% is a better measure than TS%.

Nick O
12-31-2013, 05:27 PM
lets not forget for a big man who shoots alot from 10-17 feet out. he still shoots 50% for his career. thats incredibly efficient.

beasted86
12-31-2013, 05:34 PM
Its funny because the actual inventors of TS% and the ones who actually earn a living as execs in the NBA use TS% in the same manner that we do.

I can't speak for everyone but as I say with every single stat it won't tell you the whole picture and apparently that is what you want from advanced stats for it to tell you everything or you think that I think that way.

I said it countless times and apparently I'll have to continue saying it countless times after. If a player has a greater TS% than another its means just that he has a better True Shooting Percentage. Nothing else, I never use it as a claim that one player is better than another or a better scorer or whatever, it simply means that by one of the best measures of efficiency he is a more efficient scorer than the other player.

I think the biggest flaw is your understanding of the context in which those who advocate TS% and other advanced stats use them. I remember you chastising TS% as a stat, you may have changed your opinion since our last conversation but you are also on the record of saying that TS% isn't a real stat as you believed the weights were inaccurate and it holds no ground on telling a player's scoring efficiency. I vividly remember you saying FG% is a better measure than TS%.

FG% is better for me, because its really simplistic in its flawed state. (In the way that you guys try and use it as a scoring efficiency barometer) TS% attempts to compensate in an inherently flawed manner, and come up with a theory on how to validate efficiency. You and others have always used TS% in the context of more efficient scorer which is false.

If you had stopped at the statement "If a player has a greater TS% than another its means just that he has a better True Shooting Percentage" we would have finally agreed on this subject once and for all because that's what I've been saying from day one. TS% is a formula that says how many points given x shots, almost in the same way that FG% says how many makes in x shots. Both are used out of context very often, and neither is more valid or accurate than the other.

IKnowHoops
12-31-2013, 05:37 PM
Its funny because the actual inventors of TS% and the ones who actually earn a living as execs in the NBA use TS% in the same manner that we do.

I can't speak for everyone but as I say with every single stat it won't tell you the whole picture and apparently that is what you want from advanced stats for it to tell you everything or you think that I think that way.

I said it countless times and apparently I'll have to continue saying it countless times after. If a player has a greater TS% than another its means just that he has a better True Shooting Percentage. Nothing else, I never use it as a claim that one player is better than another or a better scorer or whatever, it simply means that by one of the best measures of efficiency he is a more efficient scorer than the other player.

I think the biggest flaw is your understanding of the context in which those who advocate TS% and other advanced stats use them. I remember you chastising TS% as a stat, you may have changed your opinion since our last conversation but you are also on the record of saying that TS% isn't a real stat as you believed the weights were inaccurate and it holds no ground on telling a player's scoring efficiency. I vividly remember you saying FG% is a better measure than TS%.

All advanced stats are relative so IMO they all work. If you understand the math involved then you can understand the inaccuracies, but when everyone is held by the same exact rules, like all advanced stats, the relativity makes the stat valuable and telling of what a player is doing in regards to the measured statistic. But obviously no stat can tell a complete story about a player. Its the combination of many stats and eye test that give you that answer.

IKnowHoops
12-31-2013, 05:40 PM
FG% is better, because its really simplistic in its flawed state. TS% attempts to compensate in an inherently flawed manner, and come up with a theory on how to validate efficiency. You and others have always used TS% in the context of more efficient scorer which is false.

If you had stopped at the statement "If a player has a greater TS% than another its means just that he has a better True Shooting Percentage" we would have finally agreed on this subject once and for all because that's what I've been saying from day one.

OK so you are saying that a player who goes 8/10 and scores 16pts is more efficient than a guy who goes 7/10 and scores 21pts right?

beasted86
12-31-2013, 05:44 PM
OK so you are saying that a player who goes 8/10 and scores 16pts is more efficient than a guy who goes 7/10 and scores 21pts right?

He's more efficient at making field goals, yes.

Aside from this, what you are discussing here is eFG vs FG%, not TS%.

Swashcuff
12-31-2013, 07:13 PM
He's more efficient at making field goals, yes.

Aside from this, what you are discussing here is eFG vs FG%, not TS%.


It can be either eFG% or TS%.

Swashcuff
12-31-2013, 07:22 PM
FG% is better for me, because its really simplistic in its flawed state. (In the way that you guys try and use it as a scoring efficiency barometer) TS% attempts to compensate in an inherently flawed manner, and come up with a theory on how to validate efficiency. You and others have always used TS% in the context of more efficient scorer which is false.

If you had stopped at the statement "If a player has a greater TS% than another its means just that he has a better True Shooting Percentage" we would have finally agreed on this subject once and for all because that's what I've been saying from day one. TS% is a formula that says how many points given x shots, almost in the same way that FG% says how many makes in x shots. Both are used out of context very often, and neither is more valid or accurate than the other.

Not from what I remember. On many occasions you were the one stating that TS% has no place in basketball as its a man made stats with a flawed formula that is in no way accurate of a player's scoring efficiency.

IKnowHoops
12-31-2013, 10:53 PM
He's more efficient at making field goals, yes.

Aside from this, what you are discussing here is eFG vs FG%, not TS%.

No not at all. Maybe you don't understand TS%. If a guy goes 8/10 on 2pt shots with no 3's and no free throws, then his FG%, EFG%, and TS% will all be the same. TS% can be measured no matter what kind of shots he takes.

Secondly the 7/10 for 21pts could be 7 threes, or it could be 7 2's and 7 free throws or any number of combinations of 2's 3's and free throws, so I am talking about TS%.

Chronz
01-01-2014, 06:18 PM
FG% is better for me, because its really simplistic in its flawed state. (In the way that you guys try and use it as a scoring efficiency barometer) TS% attempts to compensate in an inherently flawed manner, and come up with a theory on how to validate efficiency. You and others have always used TS% in the context of more efficient scorer which is false.

If you had stopped at the statement "If a player has a greater TS% than another its means just that he has a better True Shooting Percentage" we would have finally agreed on this subject once and for all because that's what I've been saying from day one. TS% is a formula that says how many points given x shots, almost in the same way that FG% says how many makes in x shots. Both are used out of context very often, and neither is more valid or accurate than the other.
FG% is more valuable than TS%

Said not a single NBA statistician ...

ever

Chronz
01-01-2014, 07:17 PM
I never go ghost aka Tmac. I just don't check your replies every 10 seconds.

You really intend on spamming Tmac insults in every post?

And you can take as long as you like, the important part is that you try. Even Tmac tried




Chris Bosh
Lebron
Kobe during Smush Parker saga
Bosh had his most dominant individual season the year the Raps missed the playoffs. His support/competition were vastly in his favor those other years. And those Raps teams aren't better than todays Wolves anyways so whats your point? That Bosh is luckier?

You really comparing Kobe/Bron to Love? Why not point out Larry Bird, MJ, Shaq while we're at it? LOL at you guys thinking you're making some profound point about superstars carrying scrubs without realizing the argument isn't that Love has an MJ/Shaq type impact on the game, but that hes the best PF in the game (arguably at least). Focus on comps that would actually be an insult. At least you mentioned Bosh instead of Wade like beasted did, so congrats on that. But really, those hapless Raps teams in a weaker conference never played at a higher level than Love's CURRENT Wolves team so whats the point in mentioning him?



Tmac (the year Yao got hurt and they went on that huge winning streak --- most of the players on that team isn't even playing)
You didn't follow that season outside of the streak huh. The team was underwhelming to start the year and it was mostly because of Tmac. The Rockets were actually gelling and running Adelmans offense better in the stretches that Tmac was injured. Ask any Rox fan and they'll tell you how much better the 2nd unit (or squads without Tmac) ran the O. Tmac was a shell of himself for much of the year, when Yao went out he still had an elite defensive support behind him and that was in no way because of his contributions as he was a complete sieve this year. Ask Battier, he'll tell you how often Tmac requested a switch in place of fighting through a screen. I was so disgusted by how highly people regarded Tmac that year that I actually made a mini-blog about it
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=202257

If you actually think that Tmac then is better than Love now, then ur off ur meds. Love would Love guys like Battier, Deke, Hayes behind him and far better shooting around him as well. That Rox team was a championship caliber team, if only Tmac hadn't degraded so much by then.




Just to name a few.
**** a few. Can you name a single relevant one? Hint: Not Michael Jordan.

LAKobeBryant
01-01-2014, 08:01 PM
i found a video of his miami highlights also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL638P1rfRk

Tony_Starks
01-01-2014, 11:30 PM
If you're still sleeping on Bosh go look at his recent game against Portland when Lebron sat out. Balled up the best team in the league AND hit the game winner.

There's a difference between actually being a third option and just taking a back seat for the betterment of the team. Don't get it twisted, Bosh is still a high level allstar....

Raps18-19 Champ
01-02-2014, 01:10 AM
Nothing.

John Walls Era
01-02-2014, 01:22 AM
You really intend on spamming Tmac insults in every post?

And you can take as long as you like, the important part is that you try. Even Tmac tried



Bosh had his most dominant individual season the year the Raps missed the playoffs. His support/competition were vastly in his favor those other years. And those Raps teams aren't better than todays Wolves anyways so whats your point? That Bosh is luckier?

You really comparing Kobe/Bron to Love? Why not point out Larry Bird, MJ, Shaq while we're at it? LOL at you guys thinking you're making some profound point about superstars carrying scrubs without realizing the argument isn't that Love has an MJ/Shaq type impact on the game, but that hes the best PF in the game (arguably at least). Focus on comps that would actually be an insult. At least you mentioned Bosh instead of Wade like beasted did, so congrats on that. But really, those hapless Raps teams in a weaker conference never played at a higher level than Love's CURRENT Wolves team so whats the point in mentioning him?



You didn't follow that season outside of the streak huh. The team was underwhelming to start the year and it was mostly because of Tmac. The Rockets were actually gelling and running Adelmans offense better in the stretches that Tmac was injured. Ask any Rox fan and they'll tell you how much better the 2nd unit (or squads without Tmac) ran the O. Tmac was a shell of himself for much of the year, when Yao went out he still had an elite defensive support behind him and that was in no way because of his contributions as he was a complete sieve this year. Ask Battier, he'll tell you how often Tmac requested a switch in place of fighting through a screen. I was so disgusted by how highly people regarded Tmac that year that I actually made a mini-blog about it
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=202257

If you actually think that Tmac then is better than Love now, then ur off ur meds. Love would Love guys like Battier, Deke, Hayes behind him and far better shooting around him as well. That Rox team was a championship caliber team, if only Tmac hadn't degraded so much by then.




**** a few. Can you name a single relevant one? Hint: Not Michael Jordan.

Tmac never tried.

Bosh made the playoffs 2 times with mediocre teams. Love has had ok teams compared to Jorge Garbajosa, TJ Ford and Anthony Parker. I'm sorry but Bosh has never had a player better than Al Jefferson.

Tmac in his prime >>> Love. My point was that a TMAC could lead a team to the playoffs, I didn't specify or wasn't ask to specify a year of which Tmac.

beasted86
01-02-2014, 02:15 AM
FG% is more valuable than TS%

Said not a single NBA statistician ...

ever

I never said either was more valuable than the other. You might want to read the last line of my comment again.

I said FG% is better for me because it is simple and straight forward. No context required. I look at two players FG% and I know out of all FGs each player takes what percentage of them they hit. If I look at two players TS% it isn't straight forward in my opinion because I still need to go back and look at the 3PTA and FTA of each player to put their respective TS% into context. That's why I said its better for me, but I never said FG% is more valuable. It's just really simply a statistic, while TS% is more of what I consider a theory on scoring efficiency.

beasted86
01-02-2014, 02:21 AM
No not at all. Maybe you don't understand TS%. If a guy goes 8/10 on 2pt shots with no 3's and no free throws, then his FG%, EFG%, and TS% will all be the same. TS% can be measured no matter what kind of shots he takes.

Secondly the 7/10 for 21pts could be 7 threes, or it could be 7 2's and 7 free throws or any number of combinations of 2's 3's and free throws, so I am talking about TS%.

You are right. I didn't take into account the 2nd player could very well have gone 7/10 with all of them 2 PT attempts, and then made 7 FTs as well.... or any combination of 2s, 3s, and FTs in between.

Regardless the first part of my comment still stands. The first player is more efficient at making FGs.

Swashcuff
01-02-2014, 10:42 AM
You are right. I didn't take into account the 2nd player could very well have gone 7/10 with all of them 2 PT attempts, and then made 7 FTs as well.... or any combination of 2s, 3s, and FTs in between.

Regardless the first part of my comment still stands. The first player is more efficient at making FGs.

The point of the game isn't to make FGs. The point of the game is to score points. Wouldn't you prefer a metric which tells you how well a player scores points more so than one that tells you how well a player scores FGs? To make that only makes perfect sense.

Swashcuff
01-02-2014, 10:46 AM
I never said either was more valuable than the other. You might want to read the last line of my comment again.

I said FG% is better for me because it is simple and straight forward. No context required. I look at two players FG% and I know out of all FGs each player takes what percentage of them they hit. If I look at two players TS% it isn't straight forward in my opinion because I still need to go back and look at the 3PTA and FTA of each player to put their respective TS% into context. That's why I said its better for me, but I never said FG% is more valuable. It's just really simply a statistic, while TS% is more of what I consider a theory on scoring efficiency.

That would be true is we were talking about Netball, but this is basketball. Even for the most basic of statistics context has to be taken into consideration.

I have a simple question for you because you are one of the few advanced stats naysayers who have researched the stats and not just ignorantly criticize them. Have you done the research on TS% to be able to say that its a theory or is that a personal opinion? Because if you have done the research and understood the weights and reasoning behind them you'd realize that its actually very basic stat that is perfectly weighted.

beasted86
01-02-2014, 01:12 PM
That would be true is we were talking about Netball, but this is basketball. Even for the most basic of statistics context has to be taken into consideration.

I have a simple question for you because you are one of the few advanced stats naysayers who have researched the stats and not just ignorantly criticize them. Have you done the research on TS% to be able to say that its a theory or is that a personal opinion? Because if you have done the research and understood the weights and reasoning behind them you'd realize that its actually very basic stat that is perfectly weighted.

For one it's a theory because of it's name. "True Shooting Percentage"... when the stat has actually almost nothing to do with shooting. A player could simultaneously have all 3 higher in FG, FT, and 3PT% and still have a lower TS% than another player with lower percentages in those 3 categories. I've already seen this in a real world case with guys of similar usage. So there is nothing "truer" or giving more insight about the combined all floor position shooting ability of a player.

Second, forgetting about the name and just looking at it as a stat...it can't be a scoring efficiency stat like most others use it either because it doesn't take into account usage, turnovers, assisted FGs or coaching/teammate factors.

The best use I can find for the stat is a quick, but skewed glance at points per possession, but the reason it is flawed in that regard is because it ignores turnovers and can't account for "free" possessions that originally belonged to the team and not the individual player in the form of technical foul shots, which especially comes more into account this year with an increase in those shots per team.

Chronz
01-02-2014, 01:16 PM
Tmac never tried.
Certainly more than you do.


Bosh made the playoffs 2 times with mediocre teams.
Again, in the Weak East with superior teammates/competition advantage. When Bosh was at his best, his team missed the playoffs. So whats your point.


Love has had ok teams compared to Jorge Garbajosa, TJ Ford and Anthony Parker. I'm sorry but Bosh has never had a player better than Al Jefferson.
Vince Carter says hello. Any excuse you want to make here will hold true for Love and Al Jefferson, only more compounded because they played the same position basically.


Tmac in his prime >>> Love. My point was that a TMAC could lead a team to the playoffs,
What you fail to understand is that its not an insult to Love. Tmac could also lead a team to 19 wins BTW. Thats how much of a team game this is.


I didn't specify or wasn't ask to specify a year of which Tmac.
Thats what makes the comparison all the more hilarious.

Again, name a single relevant comp because nobody puts Kevin ahead of those guys.

Chronz
01-02-2014, 01:21 PM
I never said either was more valuable than the other.
Semantics, you said alot of stupid things in that post that not a single NBA statistician would ever agree with. Valuable, Accurate, informative, whatever level of importance you want to hint at, its still wrong.



You might want to read the last line of my comment again.
I will,

(10 seconds later)

Still funny.




I said FG% is better for me because it is simple and straight forward. No context required.
Except thats not true, whatever context TS% requires, FG% requires more because its inherently more flawed and less accurate, informative, valuable etc...



I look at two players FG% and I know out of all FGs each player takes what percentage of them they hit. If I look at two players TS% it isn't straight forward in my opinion because I still need to go back and look at the 3PTA and FTA of each player to put their respective TS% into context.
If 2 players have identical FG%, one of them could be immensely more efficient, thus you still have to go back and look at those rates regardless. Why would I care if a player has an identical FG% but is immensely less efficient overall? The less informative stat is the one that requires more context.



That's why I said its better for me, but I never said FG% is more valuable. It's just really simply a statistic, while TS% is more of what I consider a theory on scoring efficiency.
Again, said not a single statistician in the NBA. FG% is just as much of a theory as TS%

Chronz
01-02-2014, 01:27 PM
For one it's a theory because of it's name. "True Shooting Percentage"... when the stat has actually almost nothing to do with shooting. A player could simultaneously have all 3 higher in FG, FT, and 3PT% and still have a lower TS% than another player with lower percentages in those 3 categories. I've already seen this in a real world case with guys of similar usage. So there is nothing "truer" or giving more insight about the combined all floor position shooting ability of a player.
You're letting semantics rule the discussion instead of what the stat was intended to do. Would you have no problem if the stat were called True Scoring %? Points Per Possessions are what these things are trying to hint at, only by looking at specific stats.


Second, forgetting about the name and just looking at it as a stat...it can't be a scoring efficiency stat like most others use it either because it doesn't take into account usage, turnovers, assisted FGs or coaching/teammate factors.
Neither does FG%, yet you have no problem looking at 2 different FG% and using them as any sort of barometer. You account for those variables in conjunction with TS%. Thats what PPP is for. The point remains, when comparing scoring efficiency, you wont find a single NBA statistician that uses FG% ahead of anything else.



The best use I can find for the stat is a quick, but skewed glance at points per possession, but the reason it is flawed in that regard is because it ignores turnovers and can't account for "free" possessions that originally belonged to the team and not the individual player in the form of technical foul shots, which especially comes more into account this year with an increase in those shots per team.
Nothing you said here is true. PPP accounts for turnovers. Those "free" possessions account for so little that its not really worth mentioning, the .44 multiplier does a great job as an average, I've seen the discrepancy when they take out the average and use the actual number, it doesn't tip the needle enough to offset the advantages TS% has on FG%, which completely ignores those methods of scoring.

beasted86
01-02-2014, 01:51 PM
You're letting semantics rule the discussion instead of what the stat was intended to do. Would you have no problem if the stat were called True Scoring %? Points Per Possessions are what these things are trying to hint at, only by looking at specific stats.
There isn't anything "true" about it, especially given that its an estimate. See final paragraph.



Neither does FG%, yet you have no problem looking at 2 different FG% and using them as any sort of barometer. You account for those variables in conjunction with TS%. Thats what PPP is for. The point remains, when comparing scoring efficiency, you wont find a single NBA statistician that uses FG% ahead of anything else.

Why do you keep repeating what you think NBA statisticians do? For one, why am I supposed to believe you know, and second, why am I supposed to care? I'm 100% positive teams don't trade, sign, and distribute playing time based on TS%... simply by the means of its absurdity. I'm also positive teams don't even compare players scoring only ability based on TS% because its similarly absurd. It tells you nothing about how a guy can fill a given team need or role. I'd bet a large sum of money team statisticians hold a much larger weight on comprehensive floor shooting charts that are based on plain old FG%. FG% in each area of the floor, FG% in catch and shoot situations, FG% coming off screens, FG% at given times in the shot clock, FG% with each hand, etc.. not TS% with these factors.


Nothing you said here is true. PPP accounts for turnovers. Those "free" possessions account for so little that its not really worth mentioning, the .44 multiplier does a great job as an average, I've seen the discrepancy when they take out the average and use the actual number, it doesn't tip the needle enough to offset the advantages TS% has on FG%, which completely ignores those methods of scoring.
Everything I said is true. It's just that maybe you misunderstood it. PPP accounts for turnovers, but TS% does NOT. As far as the multiplier, maybe you are one of these "law of averages" guys who doesn't care about those details and inaccuracies, but I do. If I am looking for a stat, that's what I'm looking for, not an estimate. In real world measurements those extra shots could skew the stat by as much as 1.0 FTA per game which is very significant.

beasted86
01-02-2014, 02:05 PM
Again, said not a single statistician in the NBA. FG% is just as much of a theory as TS%

A simple ratio of shots made vs missed is a theory now? Is 1+1 a theory also? Arithmetic = Pythagorean Theorem. They are both theories, they are all the same, right?

Ok. I've wasted enough time here. :laugh2:

Swashcuff
01-02-2014, 02:05 PM
Just gotta go back to what I said earlier. Some dudes want a stat to tell them the world and more than it was actually made to do. I wonder if you have an issue with PPP as well. Your problem with TS% is that it doesn't take other factors into consideration but FG% doesn't either but for some reason that's not a problem. If your team is perimeter oriented it can result in a low FG% for those who play the perimeter and a higher one for those that play the paint as a result of greater spacing. FG% doesn't take that into consideration either.

beasted I asked you earlier if you did your research on TS% and its studies (especially the part about what you consider an estimate). You didn't answer. Reading your posts however I can tell that you didn't. All these "issues" you have have already been discussed and your ideas of the loops holes in the numbers have already been dispelled.

Simple yes or no question. Have you researched that "estimate"?

beasted86
01-02-2014, 02:20 PM
Just gotta go back to what I said earlier. Some dudes want a stat to tell them the world and more than it was actually made to do. I wonder if you have an issue with PPP as well. Your problem with TS% is that it doesn't take other factors into consideration but FG% doesn't either but for some reason that's not a problem. If your team is perimeter oriented it can result in a low FG% for those who play the perimeter and a higher one for those that play the paint as a result of greater spacing. FG% doesn't take that into consideration either.

beasted I asked you earlier if you did your research on TS% and its studies (especially the part about what you consider an estimate). You didn't answer. Reading your posts however I can tell that you didn't. All these "issues" you have have already been discussed and your ideas of the loops holes in the numbers have already been dispelled.

Simple yes or no question. Have you researched that "estimate"?
More important is to ask yourself why you "quote" estimate as if it isn't true?

It 100% is an estimate. Just as ORtg, or DRtg or WS, etc. Unless you come to grips with this, you will never like any response that I give to you.

Swashcuff
01-02-2014, 02:30 PM
More important is to ask yourself why you "quote" estimate as if it isn't true?

It 100% is an estimate. Just as ORtg, or DRtg or WS, etc. Unless you come to grips with this, you will never like any response that I give to you.

Dude just answer the question if you haven't take the time to look it up it may open your mind a bit more (as it has done for others). You're plenty smart but you ignorance on the topic sells your knowledge short.

The only time I dislike the responses you give me is when you start acting like nickydemz or however you spell his man. I just think you're wasting everyone's time arguing something that you haven't taken much time to understand.

Chronz
01-02-2014, 02:37 PM
There isn't anything "true" about it, especially given that its an estimate. See final paragraph.
Its a truer representation of shooting/scoring efficiency, hence the name and its nonstop use by actual statisticians. I mean who do you think started the revolution? Message board posters with non-scientific reasonings? lol, no it caught on by everyone in the field, which is telling because there are some stark differences in the APBR community, that they all happen to agree that TS% is SIGNIFICANTLY more important than FG% leaves you all by yourself.




Why do you keep repeating what you think NBA statisticians do?
Because this is THEIR field of expertise and they are the ones producing the studies that showcase its superior importance.


For one, why am I supposed to believe you know,
Because its not a secret, its a peer reviewed process, as such, if you can find a single study that shows the added benefits of ignoring the measures eFG%/TS%/PPP incorporate, then I will concede.


and second, why am I supposed to care?
Because its science/math. Not religion.



I'm 100% positive teams don't trade, sign, and distribute playing time based on TS%...
Irrelevant, never said they did. Nor would it differentiate FG% because its an even more flawed measure of efficiency.



simply by the means of its absurdity. I'm also positive teams don't even compare players scoring only ability based on TS% because its similarly absurd. It tells you nothing about how a guy can fill a given team need or role. I'd bet a large sum of money team statisticians hold a much larger weight on comprehensive floor shooting charts that are based on plain old FG%. FG% in each area of the floor, FG% in catch and shoot situations, FG% coming off screens, FG% at given times in the shot clock, FG% with each hand, etc.. not TS% with these factors.
They are actually based on eFG% and they chart PPP from each zone/playtype (why purposely dilute your information?). But that is neither here nor there because the point we make when using TS% is that its a better barometer for efficiency than plain ol fg% that can lie about efficiency in ways that statisticians felt the need to improve. Hence its creation.



Everything I said is true.
Not based on the literal sense of the words applied.


It's just that maybe you misunderstood it.
We shall see.


PPP accounts for turnovers, but TS% does NOT.
The best use I can find for the stat is a quick, but skewed glance at points per possession, but the reason it is flawed in that regard is because it ignores turnovers

So when you mentioned PPP and then mentioned a weakness, you were actually talking about TS%? I n any event, FG% neglects them as well. So when it comes to measuring scoring efficiency, TS% is still more valuable. When it comes to measuring floor%, efg% is still more valuable.



As far as the multiplier, maybe you are one of these "law of averages" guys who doesn't care about those details and inaccuracies, but I do.
Nonsense, Im all for more accuracy, but I also recognize how insignificant of a difference it makes in the aggregate. Especially when compared to the far more horrific inaccuracies that FG% represent given the differing values of the FG it tracks and the ft's it neglects.



If I am looking for a stat, that's what I'm looking for, not an estimate. In real world measurements those extra shots could skew the stat by as much as 1.0 FTA per game which is very significant.
You sound like someone whos never looked at the data. Show me proof plz because your 1FTA estimate doesn't sound viable. Even so, FG% ignores as many as +9fta per game, now THATS significant (for said player at least). The .44 multiplier is in no way as offensive.

Chronz
01-02-2014, 02:38 PM
A simple ratio of shots made vs missed is a theory now? Is 1+1 a theory also? Arithmetic = Pythagorean Theorem. They are both theories, they are all the same, right?

Ok. I've wasted enough time here. :laugh2:

They are both simple ratios of shots made vs missed, the difference is that TS% incorporates more FACTS.

And whenever you speak about statistics, its always a waste of time, as not a single statistician would agree that FG% and TS% are equal barometers. Or that the less informative one is more accurate.
Its possible that I dont understand the argument you are applying, but thats what happens when you're not well versed and rely on estimates instead of actual examples.

Show me any study/point remotely objective/scientific.

IKnowHoops
01-02-2014, 07:48 PM
You are right. I didn't take into account the 2nd player could very well have gone 7/10 with all of them 2 PT attempts, and then made 7 FTs as well.... or any combination of 2s, 3s, and FTs in between.

Regardless the first part of my comment still stands. The first player is more efficient at making FGs.

I feel you, trust me I do, but I think TS% is more straight forward than FG% and the above illustrates why. FG% will show that the guy who went 8/10 is the more efficient player. But when we look we see that both guys shot 10 shots and one guy scored 16pts and another guy scored 21pts. So at this point, using FG% is going to give me the less efficient player.

Chronz
01-03-2014, 04:53 AM
Gotta love Battier's timely response on the added value of 3's that plain old FG% completely ignores


Battier, a student of the numbers, agrees with the "fluorescent" light that Curry gets from downtown since 3-pointers have 50 percent more value than 2-pointers. Effectively, he's shooting much higher than his raw field goal percentage indicates.

"I agree," Battier said about Jackson's 3-point philosophy while glancing at Curry's line in the box score. "Eight of 15? Effectively, what's that, 80 percent? Why not? There's not a bad 3 for Steph Curry. It's math."

eFG% for the win. Gotta love true students of the game

IKnowHoops
01-03-2014, 05:06 AM
For one it's a theory because of it's name. "True Shooting Percentage"... when the stat has actually almost nothing to do with shooting. A player could simultaneously have all 3 higher in FG, FT, and 3PT% and still have a lower TS% than another player with lower percentages in those 3 categories. I've already seen this in a real world case with guys of similar usage. So there is nothing "truer" or giving more insight about the combined all floor position shooting ability of a player.

Second, forgetting about the name and just looking at it as a stat...it can't be a scoring efficiency stat like most others use it either because it doesn't take into account usage, turnovers, assisted FGs or coaching/teammate factors.

The best use I can find for the stat is a quick, but skewed glance at points per possession, but the reason it is flawed in that regard is because it ignores turnovers and can't account for "free" possessions that originally belonged to the team and not the individual player in the form of technical foul shots, which especially comes more into account this year with an increase in those shots per team.

Yes but we understand why. It means that a guy like Dwayne wade gets credit for his pump fakes that he uses to lure people into fouls thus sending him to the line a lot to get free throws. Your ability to draw fouls and score off them should contribute to your overall efficiency don't you think. Your putting a team/player into foul trouble, and you scoring while not logging a shot. I don't have a problem with TS% in this case and you should understand that in an instance when a guy like D wade can lure people in and get to the line, that his level of efficiency will and should rise. If a guy take 2 FG attempts all game long, but gets to the line 25 times, he is very good at what he does and it should show up in the stats.

odiz
01-03-2014, 05:53 AM
When he was in TOR he put up Kevin Love style video game numbers on the regular and he is a much better defender. Love is great but it's closer than you think.

Kevin Love doesnt know how to play defense. Hes terrible at half of the game of basketball.

Go look at Boshs stats in Toronto. His TS% when he was the main option in Toronto (when he was putting up 22-24ppg) is equal to what Love puts up now. His efficiency now (granted its as a third option) is better than Loves. So hes proven he can score just as much and be just as efficient as Love. Bosh has also become an above average defender while Love is horrible. Love is a better rebounder but thats it really.

Bosh led those crap Raptors teams to the playoffs multiple times and close to 50 wins one year. There is a reason the Wolves have never won more then 32 games with Love as their franchise player.

Edit: I meant to quote another post, someone saying Love was the best PF...

mngopher35
01-03-2014, 11:59 AM
Kevin Love doesnt know how to play defense. Hes terrible at half of the game of basketball.

Go look at Boshs stats in Toronto. His TS% when he was the main option in Toronto (when he was putting up 22-24ppg) is equal to what Love puts up now. His efficiency now (granted its as a third option) is better than Loves. So hes proven he can score just as much and be just as efficient as Love. Bosh has also become an above average defender while Love is horrible. Love is a better rebounder but thats it really.

Bosh led those crap Raptors teams to the playoffs multiple times and close to 50 wins one year. There is a reason the Wolves have never won more then 32 games with Love as their franchise player.

Edit: I meant to quote another post, someone saying Love was the best PF...

Chris Bosh in his entire career has never scored as many ppg, grabbed as many rpg, or dished out as many apg as Kevin Love has in just this season. Kevin Love is quite easily the better player outside of defense. Now Bosh has definitely improved on that end since coming to Miami but when he was leading those teams in Toronto he wasn't very good either. Also, while Love isn't good at help defense (partly because of rebounding) he is actually a solid defender. Now I am not going to claim he is anything more than just average on that end but I wouldn't call him terrible.

I see why you may make an argument that Chris Bosh is better than Kevin Love (using his offensive production in the past with his current defense) but we have never seen a season where he put up this type of production with good defense. Now sure you can use the he made the playoffs and Love hasn't, but realize how much different the East was then compared to the West now. Also when you take injuries into consideration there hasn't even been a season until this year where Love really had a chance of leading us to the playoffs.

Swashcuff
01-03-2014, 12:22 PM
Kevin Love doesnt know how to play defense. Hes terrible at half of the game of basketball.

Go look at Boshs stats in Toronto. His TS% when he was the main option in Toronto (when he was putting up 22-24ppg) is equal to what Love puts up now. His efficiency now (granted its as a third option) is better than Loves. So hes proven he can score just as much and be just as efficient as Love. Bosh has also become an above average defender while Love is horrible. Love is a better rebounder but thats it really.

Bosh led those crap Raptors teams to the playoffs multiple times and close to 50 wins one year. There is a reason the Wolves have never won more then 32 games with Love as their franchise player.

Edit: I meant to quote another post, someone saying Love was the best PF...

Why don't you take the time to go look up Bosh's stats in TO and compare them to Love's now or two years ago or even the year before that, because you are wrong.

D-Leethal
01-03-2014, 12:31 PM
Gotta love Battier's timely response on the added value of 3's that plain old FG% completely ignores



eFG% for the win. Gotta love true students of the game

lmfao, you are butchering the meaning of "students of the game" there buddy. Student of the game is meant to represent learning the ebbs and flows of the game, learning how to react off teammates, how to handle certain situations, it occurs by studying real-time basketball and playing real-time basketball, learning how to play instinctively, not taking a calculator and studying paper basketball. Thats being a student of analytics. What he said, and what you are implying about the value of the 3 point shot is definitely true, and I will admit eFG is way better tool than FG, but thats not what "being a student of the game" is meant to be studying film and basketball games, not literally studying textbooks and math formulas.

Chronz
01-03-2014, 12:36 PM
lmfao, you are butchering the meaning of "students of the game" there buddy. Student of the game is meant to represent learning the ebbs and flows of the game, learning how to react off teammates, how to handle certain situations, it occurs by studying real-time basketball and playing real-time basketball, learning how to play instinctively, not taking a calculator and studying paper basketball. Thats being a student of analytics. What he said, and what you are implying about the value of the 3 point shot is definitely true, and I will admit eFG is way better tool than FG, but thats not what "being a student of the game" is meant to be studying film and basketball games, not literally studying textbooks and math formulas.
LOL at you thinking being a student of the game is limited to only things you care about. Sorry but players who know the importance of analytics are ALSO students of the game.

Why dont you vaguely call someone out and then go ghost again?

NJrockPD
01-03-2014, 12:51 PM
That's what happens when you sell out to win easy rings.

Jamiecballer
01-03-2014, 12:58 PM
How has this thread remained active so long? Chris Bosh is still as good as ever. He's just playing less and sacrificing more than most.

Swashcuff
01-03-2014, 01:05 PM
lmfao, you are butchering the meaning of "students of the game" there buddy. Student of the game is meant to represent learning the ebbs and flows of the game, learning how to react off teammates, how to handle certain situations, it occurs by studying real-time basketball and playing real-time basketball, learning how to play instinctively, not taking a calculator and studying paper basketball. Thats being a student of analytics. What he said, and what you are implying about the value of the 3 point shot is definitely true, and I will admit eFG is way better tool than FG, but thats not what "being a student of the game" is meant to be studying film and basketball games, not literally studying textbooks and math formulas.

You do know that Shane Battier has long been an advocate of the use of advanced stats in bettering himself as a basketball player right? He actually studies them in an attempt to improve his value on both ends of the floor. Student of the game is to be taken in a holistic sense.

Chronz
01-03-2014, 01:06 PM
You do know that Shane Battier has long been an advocate of the use of advanced stats in bettering himself as a basketball player right? He actually studies them in an attempt to improve his value on both ends of the floor. Student of the game is to be taken in a holistic sense.

He thinks being a student of the game is limited to only his understanding of it, when in actuality, its any player who makes it a point to learn more about the game, its history and its efficacy. In other words, yet another semantic argument wherein hes not arguing against the main point Im making, just trying to take another dig at the lesser issue, what we've come to expect of him and his crusade at this point.

Tony_Starks
01-03-2014, 02:14 PM
Chris Bosh in his entire career has never scored as many ppg, grabbed as many rpg, or dished out as many apg as Kevin Love has in just this season. Kevin Love is quite easily the better player outside of defense. Now Bosh has definitely improved on that end since coming to Miami but when he was leading those teams in Toronto he wasn't very good either. Also, while Love isn't good at help defense (partly because of rebounding) he is actually a solid defender. Now I am not going to claim he is anything more than just average on that end but I wouldn't call him terrible.

I see why you may make an argument that Chris Bosh is better than Kevin Love (using his offensive production in the past with his current defense) but we have never seen a season where he put up this type of production with good defense. Now sure you can use the he made the playoffs and Love hasn't, but realize how much different the East was then compared to the West now. Also when you take injuries into consideration there hasn't even been a season until this year where Love really had a chance of leading us to the playoffs.

Not a big fan of either player but I'd take Prime Bosh over Love any ole day of the week. People get enamored with Loves offensive numbers but what they neglect is even though he'll give you like 32 and 16 his man will probably get 30 and 10 and they will lose the game. He's allergic to defense.

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 02:19 PM
Bosh fulfilling his legacy as the modern day Earl Monroe.

mngopher35
01-03-2014, 03:27 PM
Not a big fan of either player but I'd take Prime Bosh over Love any ole day of the week. People get enamored with Loves offensive numbers but what they neglect is even though he'll give you like 32 and 16 his man will probably get 30 and 10 and they will lose the game. He's allergic to defense.

Well one issue with this is that this is hopefully just the begining of Love's prime, meaning we may still see better from him.

I think that a prime bosh compared to the Love we have seen this year is pretty close. They each will bring different things to the table so their value to each person will be different. Love can stretch the floor better, rebound better, pass better (with elite outlet passing), and score better than bosh. Bosh has the advantage on Defense but it isn't by some huge amount (I'd call him above average with Love being average to below average).

Is Bosh better than Dirk because he plays slightly better defense as well? Serious question on where you would put Dirk in this conversation of prime talents. I just don't think Bosh's defense is that much better than either of these guys and they are both better offensively with love having a drastic edge in rebounding too. I think we have to wait a year or two still though for this, as Love hopefully can continue to improve.

IKnowHoops
01-03-2014, 04:11 PM
Chris Bosh hasn't lost much, but he has lost a step for sure. He's not as quick and smooth as he once was. But Kevin love would help the Heat more than Bosh would for sure. He can stretch the floor even better, and if he were to just concentrate on rebounds, he could probably come close to Worm numbers. Unfortunately if Bosh isn't being utilized as a scorer, he doesn't do that well doing the dirty work. He's not tough inside. Its very hard for his talents to be realized when playing along side of Wade and Bron. Love would be pulling down 16+ rebounds a night if he played on the Heat.

Tony_Starks
01-03-2014, 04:16 PM
Well one issue with this is that this is hopefully just the begining of Love's prime, meaning we may still see better from him.

I think that a prime bosh compared to the Love we have seen this year is pretty close. They each will bring different things to the table so their value to each person will be different. Love can stretch the floor better, rebound better, pass better (with elite outlet passing), and score better than bosh. Bosh has the advantage on Defense but it isn't by some huge amount (I'd call him above average with Love being average to below average).

Is Bosh better than Dirk because he plays slightly better defense as well? Serious question on where you would put Dirk in this conversation of prime talents. I just don't think Bosh's defense is that much better than either of these guys and they are both better offensively with love having a drastic edge in rebounding too. I think we have to wait a year or two still though for this, as Love hopefully can continue to improve.

Well if we're talking prime Dirk I put him over Bosh. But by the time he hit prime he had improved his defense to respectable and was carrying his team on his back to the finals with basically no other superstar and a bunch of role players. So I factor in the effect on the team. Even Bosh got a horrible team to the playoffs.

The Wolves as currently constructed were predicted by basically everyone to be anywhere from 6-8 and are still not very good. If Love is going to get all the credit for wins he has to shoulder the blame for not making them even a respectable team so far. If he puts half the effort into defense this offseason that he does into offense he'd easily be the best PF in the league....

KnicksorBust
01-03-2014, 05:21 PM
Bosh fulfilling his legacy as the modern day Earl Monroe.

Great post.

mngopher35
01-03-2014, 08:51 PM
Well if we're talking prime Dirk I put him over Bosh. But by the time he hit prime he had improved his defense to respectable and was carrying his team on his back to the finals with basically no other superstar and a bunch of role players. So I factor in the effect on the team. Even Bosh got a horrible team to the playoffs.

Alright, but also factor in that Love has far superior rebounding to both with better passing as well. I think prime Dirk is better than Love this year too, but was curious how good you thought Bosh is. I think you are overreacting to Love's bad defense. He isn't a great help defender but he is solid at using his positioning and forcing opponents into bad shots. I think his defense is probably just a little below average.

Also Bosh made the playoffs in the weaker east, and one year did it with a .500 team (which the wolves are now in a competitive west). Both times were first round exits. Not really something I would say is much more impressive.


The Wolves as currently constructed were predicted by basically everyone to be anywhere from 6-8 and are still not very good. If Love is going to get all the credit for wins he has to shoulder the blame for not making them even a respectable team so far. If he puts half the effort into defense this offseason that he does into offense he'd easily be the best PF in the league....

Well we have other problems that are much more significant factors than Love (Rubio can't score the ball, martin's inconsistent play, and terrible bench). Also who gives him all the credit for the wins? who says we aren't respectable? I don't see why he needs to be blamed if it isn't his fault.

Love already is the best pf in the game...:)

Chronz
01-06-2014, 03:37 AM
Alright, but also factor in that Love has far superior rebounding to both with better passing as well.

You're going way too easy on him, Bosh in Toronto was horrid defensively. He did have better tools to defend with but only now in Miami (with a significantly reduced offensive load) has he been respectable. He was great on team USA, so I would never deny his superior defensive abilities, but if they cant be utilized without that kind of superb support, is it really that important?

SPURSFAN1
01-06-2014, 03:45 AM
Tim Duncan took his soul in game 7.

IKnowHoops
01-06-2014, 03:49 AM
Tim Duncan took his soul in game 7.

And an L

SPURSFAN1
01-06-2014, 03:50 AM
And an L

Old man Tim Duncan. Would be a 4-0 series if it was prime Duncan.

IKnowHoops
01-06-2014, 03:51 AM
great post.

lol

IKnowHoops
01-06-2014, 03:53 AM
Old man Tim Duncan. Would be a 4-0 series if it was prime Duncan.

And the Heat would of won in that case as well with an injury free prime D wade

IKnowHoops
01-06-2014, 03:55 AM
Tim Duncan took his soul in game 7.

NAW, Hibbert had already taken ownership of it.

SPURSFAN1
01-06-2014, 03:55 AM
And the Heat would of won in that case as well with an injury free prime D wade

I guess you're forgetting Manu was riddled with injuries the entire year and actually hurt the spurs during the playoffs. Prime Manu destroys anything wade brings to the table.

Swashcuff
01-06-2014, 08:51 AM
I guess you're forgetting Manu was riddled with injuries the entire year and actually hurt the spurs during the playoffs. Prime Manu destroys anything wade brings to the table.

Man you've been one of the most annoying Spurs homers since joining PSD. Prime Manu destroys prime Wade? Child please.

archdevil84
01-06-2014, 10:16 AM
I guess you're forgetting Manu was riddled with injuries the entire year and actually hurt the spurs during the playoffs. Prime Manu destroys anything wade brings to the table.

haha, very funny

SPURSFAN1
01-06-2014, 01:14 PM
Man you've been one of the most annoying Spurs homers since joining PSD. Prime Manu destroys prime Wade? Child please.

Some people forget how great Manu used to be. Manu carried his team to a gold medal. Prime Manu was god. A whole bunch of butthurt wade fans don't like hearing the truth.

IKnowHoops
01-06-2014, 10:55 PM
Some people forget how great Manu used to be. Manu carried his team to a gold medal. Prime Manu was god. A whole bunch of butthurt wade fans don't like hearing the truth.

I am a huge Manu fan, and in his prime, yeah he was a top five SG in the league. But he was never #1, and the bold is just straight blasphemous on every level imaginal. How did they ever loose against the Lakers if the whole time Manu was better than Kobe. Manu was a beast, but not better than Wade or Kobe ever. And not in there realm either. He is what a 2x all star? Lets leave it at that.

SPURSFAN1
01-06-2014, 11:18 PM
I am a huge Manu fan, and in his prime, yeah he was a top five SG in the league. But he was never #1, and the bold is just straight blasphemous on every level imaginal. How did they ever loose against the Lakers if the whole time Manu was better than Kobe. Manu was a beast, but not better than Wade or Kobe ever. And not in there realm either. He is what a 2x all star? Lets leave it at that.

2x all star? You're basing skills on popularity? Kobe is going to the allstar game again this year. LOL. Shaq was the reason kobe has 5 rings and not 2. Don't even get me started on the difference in team salaries between LA and SA.

NBA_Starter
01-06-2014, 11:38 PM
He added a 3-point jumper.

SportsFanatic10
01-07-2014, 12:06 AM
I guess you're forgetting Manu was riddled with injuries the entire year and actually hurt the spurs during the playoffs. Prime Manu destroys anything wade brings to the table.

if i did sig quotes this would definitely be in my sig....are you ****ing kidding me? get a clue homer. i like manu and respect his game he certainly was great, but i mean come on that's absolutely hilarious.

SPURSFAN1
01-07-2014, 12:11 AM
if i did sig quotes this would definitely be in my sig....are you ****ing kidding me? get a clue homer. i like manu and respect his game he certainly was great, but i mean come on that's absolutely hilarious.

Oh no! Sig quotes! hahahahahaha

SportsFanatic10
01-07-2014, 12:15 AM
Oh no! Sig quotes! hahahahahaha

congrats you've become the 1st terrible spurs fan i've seen on here. i know every fanbase has their idiots/extreme homers, but i was starting to think the spurs didn't at least on psd.

SPURSFAN1
01-07-2014, 12:18 AM
congrats you've become the 1st terrible spurs fan i've seen on here. i know every fanbase has their idiots/extreme homers, but i was starting to think the spurs didn't at least on psd.

Something tells me you're a little mad. People need to relax and stop being so sensitive.

SportsFanatic10
01-07-2014, 12:23 AM
Something tells me you're a little mad. People need to relax and stop being so sensitive.

not at all, more so shocked at seeing just how big a homer you are. your post was so ridiculous i hope it was just pure baiting since no one in their right mind would agree with it.

SPURSFAN1
01-07-2014, 12:27 AM
not at all, more so shocked at seeing just how big a homer you are. your post was so ridiculous i hope it was just pure baiting since no one in their right mind would agree with it.

I could careless what you think about me. I don't lose sleep over bandwagon fans.

SportsFanatic10
01-07-2014, 12:33 AM
I could careless what you think about me. I don't lose sleep over bandwagon fans.

i'm sure you do over game 7 losses though lol.

SPURSFAN1
01-07-2014, 12:40 AM
i'm sure you do over game 7 losses though lol.

Nope. Maybe Lebron nuthuggers do. They're used to wetting the bed all the time. We just keep pounding the rock. Every year is a new year. Your comebacks keep getting shorter. I wonder what stupid thing you say next.

ATX
01-07-2014, 12:46 AM
I could careless what you think about me. I don't lose sleep over bandwagon fans.

Just because your (I guess) still upset at last years outcome doesn't give you the right to stereotype all Heat fans…It's always the same whining. You have been making gross generalizations all day, and flaming an entire fan base based on what? In this thread/case stating Manu is better than Wade? That just doesn't even justify a reply, and I have always been a Manu fan. Several of my friends are Spurs fans, but NONE would be as naive as to state that Manu is better. Bring some substance or facts to back up this claim please. Don't just be a hater, or do, but OWN it.

SportsFanatic10
01-07-2014, 12:49 AM
Nope. Maybe Lebron nuthuggers do. They're used to wetting the bed all the time. We just keep pounding the rock. Every year is a new year. Your comebacks keep getting shorter. I wonder what stupid thing you say next.

lol comebacks? who needs comebacks when dealing with you, your stupidity speaks for itself. you're a clown and after this post i won't continue to feed into your baiting and derail this thread any further. next time you have something ******** to say ask yourself if a case can be made for it first so you can back it up. have fun being blinded by extreme homerism since your obviously hopeless and a waste of time to talk to.

SPURSFAN1
01-07-2014, 12:53 AM
lol comebacks? who needs comebacks when dealing with you, your stupidity speaks for itself. you're a clown and after this post i won't continue to feed into your baiting and derail this thread any further. next time you have something ******** to say ask yourself if a case can be made for it first so you can back it up. have fun being blinded by extreme homerism since your obviously hopeless and a waste of time to talk to.

Congrats. You topped yourself. I don't know how you did it, but you did. You managed to say something more stupid than your previous statements.

SPURSFAN1
01-07-2014, 12:56 AM
Just because your (I guess) still upset at last years outcome doesn't give you the right to stereotype all Heat fans…It's always the same whining. You have been making gross generalizations all day, and flaming an entire fan base based on what? In this thread/case stating Manu is better than Wade? That just doesn't even justify a reply, and I have always been a Manu fan. Several of my friends are Spurs fans, but NONE would be as naive as to state that Manu is better. Bring some substance or facts to back up this claim please. Don't just be a hater, or do, but OWN it.

The Spurs have come up empty in the playoffs before. I don't ever think I've been upset once. Your first sentence is a lie. I didn't bother reading the rest of the trash.

ATX
01-07-2014, 12:58 AM
The Spurs have come up empty in the playoffs before. I don't ever think I've been upset once. Your first sentence is a lie. I didn't bother reading the rest of the trash.

Man your immaturity is astounding. You're the Spurs version of Illusionist. Congrats

SPURSFAN1
01-07-2014, 01:01 AM
Man your immaturity is astounding. You're the Spurs version of Illusionist. Congrats

Do I get a trophy?

Swashcuff
01-07-2014, 10:12 AM
Do I get a trophy?

No but you're on the fast track to getting permabanned. Needs to happen soon too.

kdspurman
01-07-2014, 11:19 AM
Lets try and stay on topic guys