PDA

View Full Version : So...what do you make of this team?



Pages : [1] 2 3 4

djsunyc
12-28-2013, 01:30 PM
we have two eras, BR and AR. before rudy and after rudy.

after rudy, we have played 9 games, 6 on the road. we have won 6 games including wins @lakers, @chicago, @dallas, @okc and @new york. our 3 losses were to spurs twice and a buzzer beater to charlotte at home.

we have only been outscored once in the 4th quarter in all of those games (@spurs) and tied only once (vs. charlotte). the other 7 games, we have outscored our opponents in the 4th.

amir + jonas have been playing very good.
ross is showing some good things.
derozan seems like the game has slowed down for him and he's playing under control.
lowry has emerged as the leader and is playing like the guy we traded for.
salmons has been a pleasant surprise.

we are now 12-15 but 6-3 in the last 9. we are now 8-7 on the road, including 5-1 on the road after rudy.

what do you make of this team? what is our identity?

koreancabbage
12-28-2013, 01:50 PM
its a grinding team. there is no lead that is too big or too small this team can't catch up with. plays great defensively. Most importantly, we have lots of pieces that are able to defend their own positions and are mobile enough to switch and still defend with some success.

B2B
12-28-2013, 01:57 PM
we have two eras, BR and AR. before rudy and after rudy.

after rudy, we have played 9 games, 6 on the road. we have won 6 games including wins @lakers, @chicago, @dallas, @okc and @new york. our 3 losses were to spurs twice and a buzzer beater to charlotte at home.

we have only been outscored once in the 4th quarter in all of those games (@spurs) and tied only once (vs. charlotte). the other 7 games, we have outscored our opponents in the 4th.

amir + jonas have been playing very good.
ross is showing some good things.
derozan seems like the game has slowed down for him and he's playing under control.
lowry has emerged as the leader and is playing like the guy we traded for.
salmons has been a pleasant surprise.

we are now 12-15 but 6-3 in the last 9. we are now 8-7 on the road, including 5-1 on the road after rudy.

what do you make of this team? what is our identity?

Better bench, better consistency, less small ball. Rested players, better 4th quarters

Ross & Salmons combined have made up for the loss of Gay at SF, while quality depth was added. Lowry is no longer playing 2nd fiddle to his friend.

The team has played inconsistent & under performed,

bad enough to lose to the Cats, yet good enough to hand OKC their first loss at home,

bad enough to lose at home to lesser teams, good enough to win tough West road games against great home teams.

BALLER R
12-28-2013, 02:02 PM
They are finding their own identity. Playoff teams are usually .500 on the road. We just need to be better at home. Don't know why we aren't as good on our home court.

Freakazoid
12-28-2013, 02:12 PM
we have two eras, BR and AR. before rudy and after rudy.

after rudy, we have played 9 games, 6 on the road. we have won 6 games including wins @lakers, @chicago, @dallas, @okc and @new york. our 3 losses were to spurs twice and a buzzer beater to charlotte at home.

we have only been outscored once in the 4th quarter in all of those games (@spurs) and tied only once (vs. charlotte). the other 7 games, we have outscored our opponents in the 4th.

amir + jonas have been playing very good.
ross is showing some good things.
derozan seems like the game has slowed down for him and he's playing under control.
lowry has emerged as the leader and is playing like the guy we traded for.
salmons has been a pleasant surprise.

we are now 12-15 but 6-3 in the last 9. we are now 8-7 on the road, including 5-1 on the road after rudy.

what do you make of this team? what is our identity?

Right now, I don't really think much of our team. While I think we'll get wins because we have a hard working core, I'm not really optimistic of their long-term potential (apart from Jonas and maybe Amir). Demar's much hyped progression turned out to be nothing more than a hot start and is now regressing towards his mean. Although he has made subtle improvements here and there, we're still waiting for that big jump. Sadly, I don't think he'll end up being the fringe superstar that many have hyped him up to be.

Despite the numerous posts and threads, I think it's obvious by now that Rudy didn't fit on our team and that the team we have now is much better than the one before despite losing our "faux-star". Casey's offense actually looks passable, but again, I can't see Casey being part of the future that Masai and Leiweke have envisioned.

As well, contrary to other users, I don't think there's anything to be proud of by winning the Titanic division. I think it's laughable people think there's anything to garner from winning the Atlantic. I don't see how a textbook treadmill team translates to a winning culture nor do I see how it'll attract franchise altering free agents. Anyone can see through this charade and I'm sure everyone realizes this. Even then, if you look at team like the Spurs, they've had to look for talent overseas or in the draft despite being a perennial contender. Miami's nor LAL's model for building is an outlier IMO and vastly unsustainable. Striving to win the Atlantic is nothing but a blip on the radar.

djsunyc
12-28-2013, 02:19 PM
They are finding their own identity. Playoff teams are usually .500 on the road. We just need to be better at home. Don't know why we aren't as good on our home court.

surprisingly, only 8 teams (4 in each conference) were .500 or above on the road last year.

koreancabbage
12-28-2013, 02:31 PM
They are finding their own identity. Playoff teams are usually .500 on the road. We just need to be better at home. Don't know why we aren't as good on our home court.

probably a "us against the world" mentality when you're on the road. which means these guys are a close knit bunch and believe in each other. I love the addition to our bench in Salmons (BC failed acquisition lol), Patterson and GVZ. I have yet to watch Chuck Hayes, but from a role player perspective, he's gonna fit right in.

ramz.n
12-28-2013, 03:01 PM
imo the raptors are not good enough to make it to the 2nd round and are not bad enough to get a top 10 pick, going to be interesting come draft day.

pulzar
12-28-2013, 03:53 PM
I think it's safe to say at this point that the tank is off. This team is good enough to win the division, and win the first round of playoffs at this point. East sucks, and we're not going to get a top 5 pick, unless something blatant happens, liking sitting down starters and having D-leaguers play for 40 minutes.

So, we're not going to get one of the top prospects in this draft. Once you understand that, then you might as well enjoy this season and the fun games that these guys are playing right now, and see them get as far as they can.

We'll see what the next year brings. Some of the tanking teams will stop tanking, and if we lose Lowry we'll be much weaker, and maybe next year we tank. Or, maybe we resign Lowry, pick up a free agent or two and continue to get better. Who knows... in the meantime, let's enjoy this season and the first semblance of teamwork and strong effort in Raptorland in a long while.

pulzar
12-28-2013, 03:55 PM
imo the raptors are not good enough to make it to the 2nd round

They'll be playing Bobcats, or Washington, or Pistons... they are certainly good enough to make it against those teams.

BALLER R
12-28-2013, 04:04 PM
They'll be playing Bobcats, or Washington, or Pistons... they are certainly good enough to make it against those teams.

Those 3 teams worry me for different reasons. Bobcats for some reason have our number. Washington not sure about and pistons might be a problem. We can win a series against each of these teams but at the same time these teams you gotta be careful with.

pulzar
12-28-2013, 04:04 PM
For what it's worth, Hollinger has us as the 12th best team in the league:

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerrankings

Also, 84.5% chance of winning the division, 0% chance of being in the lottery, and 6% chance of making the finals. He's also got us at the same chance of winning the championship as Houston :).

Ah, stats. They can make you believe so many things. :)

pulzar
12-28-2013, 04:06 PM
Those 3 teams worry me for different reasons. Bobcats for some reason have our number. Washington not sure about and pistons might be a problem. We can win a series against each of these teams but at the same time these teams you gotta be careful with.

You're absolutely right. We could easily lose to any of them, but we could also win. It'd be fun to watch a playoff series in which we're not a complete underdog, as was previously expected.

FriedTofuz
12-28-2013, 04:14 PM
The only way I can see the raptors being contenders if they dont want to tank is if they're able to pry Lebron via free agency. (yes that's the only way)

smith&wesson
12-28-2013, 04:52 PM
Gritty team, shares the ball, becoming very cohesive. They still lack the talent required to go all the way. But I’m enjoying watching them compete.

DaoudS
12-28-2013, 04:52 PM
It seems kinda similar to Colangelo's first year in Toronto....

FriedTofuz
12-28-2013, 05:11 PM
It seems kinda similar to Colangelo's first year in Toronto....

Not really, not at all actually. just because this team is hovering around the 4th seed( possibly 3rd if they dont talk and atlanta declines ( due to horfords injury)) just like the seeding back in 2006, it doesnt feel like colangelo's first year at all. Colangeo traded literally all of the roaster and flipped it and it's players.

Freakazoid
12-28-2013, 05:46 PM
Not really, not at all actually. just because this team is hovering around the 4th seed( possibly 3rd if they dont talk and atlanta declines ( due to horfords injury)) just like the seeding back in 2006, it doesnt feel like colangelo's first year at all. Colangeo traded literally all of the roaster and flipped it and it's players.

I felt like Bryan tried to tank but the team overachieved which gave him delusions of grandeur. I fear the same thing will happen to Masai but I'm cautiously optimistic that it won't.

ink
12-28-2013, 05:55 PM
Not really, not at all actually. just because this team is hovering around the 4th seed( possibly 3rd if they dont talk and atlanta declines ( due to horfords injury)) just like the seeding back in 2006, it doesnt feel like colangelo's first year at all. Colangeo traded literally all of the roaster and flipped it and it's players.

I felt like Bryan tried to tank but the team overachieved which gave him delusions of grandeur. I fear the same thing will happen to Masai but I'm cautiously optimistic that it won't.

I can't believe we haven't learned anything from 2007 and may repeat the same thing. It was almost forgivable that BC got sucked into the "success" story of a 47 win season (a very bad year for a serious contender btw) but it's sheer idiocy if Masai repeats the massive error.

Again, I liken it to someone who has never been laid. Sometimes you feel so desperate you'd take anything, but after you've had it and you waited for the right woman, you know you did absolutely the right thing. :)

As Raptors fans we're success virgins.

Freakazoid
12-28-2013, 06:03 PM
I can't believe we haven't learned anything from 2007 and may repeat the same thing. It was almost forgivable that BC got sucked into the "success" story of a 47 win season (a very bad year for a serious contender btw) but it's sheer idiocy if Masai repeats the massive error.

Again, I liken it to someone who has never been laid. Sometimes you feel so desperate you'd take anything, but after you've had it and you waited for the right woman, you know you did absolutely the right thing. :)

As Raptors fans we're success virgins.

If we don't get a lottery pick for this season, I guess the best case scenario would be a rebuild similar to the Pacers'. I could see Jonas making the same leap that Hibbert did in his third year. However, I don't see Demar or Ross making the same leap that PG did though.

LanceUpperCut
12-28-2013, 06:30 PM
I can't believe we haven't learned anything from 2007 and may repeat the same thing. It was almost forgivable that BC got sucked into the "success" story of a 47 win season (a very bad year for a serious contender btw) but it's sheer idiocy if Masai repeats the massive error.

Again, I liken it to someone who has never been laid. Sometimes you feel so desperate you'd take anything, but after you've had it and you waited for the right woman, you know you did absolutely the right thing. :)

As Raptors fans we're success virgins.

Repeats what exactly? You make it sound like it's trade off everything of value and be extremely ****** or your like the 2007 overachieving team. So in your mind every team should either be tanking or on the brink of a title. Like I posted earlier we have zero long term bad contracts and none after next year a core that's extremely young, all of are picks and an extra future first on top of that.
If it weren't for people thinking there's 4-5 LBJ's in this draft we would all be really happy with what lays ahead.

LanceUpperCut
12-28-2013, 06:31 PM
If we don't get a lottery pick for this season, I guess the best case scenario would be a rebuild similar to the Pacers'. I could see Jonas making the same leap that Hibbert did in his third year. However, I don't see Demar or Ross making the same leap that PG did though.

Or like Houston a team that hasn't had a top pick in a long time but used assets and FA to grab 2 franchise types.

ink
12-28-2013, 06:32 PM
Repeats what exactly? You make it sound like it's trade off everything of value and be extremely ****** or your like the 2007 overachieving team. So in your mind every team should either be tanking or on the brink of a title. Like I posted earlier we have zero long term bad contracts and none after next year a core that's extremely young, all of are picks and an extra future first on top of that.
If it weren't for people thinking there's 4-5 LBJ's in this draft we would all be really happy with what lays ahead.

You're reading a lot into my post that wasn't there at all.

ink
12-28-2013, 06:35 PM
Or like Houston a team that hasn't had a top pick in a long time but used assets and FA to grab 2 franchise types.

Both already had very long histories of winning as franchises. There is a massive difference. There is absolutely no base of success for the Raptors to build on, that's exactly why it's essential to take our time and finally do it right this time.

That's also exactly why we're success virgins. We don't really know what it looks like or how to get there. It's completely uncharted territory. Don't underestimate the challenge of taking a failed expansion franchise and creating a winner out of it.

Freakazoid
12-28-2013, 06:43 PM
Or like Houston a team that hasn't had a top pick in a long time but used assets and FA to grab 2 franchise types.

Houston got extremely lucky. Morey even said that he told Les that they were probably going to tank for 2-3 years. It's one of the reasons why he let Adelman go (which is sad since he'll be perfect their current team) And to think that Harden could have been on this team if Bryan didn't trade away the pick. Sigh.

Honestly, I can't think of any players that would result in a Harden situation. Closest ones are Melo, Monroe and Bledsoe. Neither of which are franchise altering players IMO. I do think a top pick+our current core+an UFA like Monroe/Bledsoe could drastically speed up the rebuilding process at the cost of one season. I don't think we gain anything from a first round playoff exit.

pulzar
12-28-2013, 06:49 PM
It was almost forgivable that BC got sucked into the "success" story of a 47 win season (a very bad year for a serious contender btw) but it's sheer idiocy if Masai repeats the massive error.

Are you talking about what BC did the year after -- i.e. try to add a big contract to "push us over the top"? Or something that he did in 2007 itself?

If Masai picks up an O'Neal-like contract next year, then yes, that will be a massive error. But I don't think riding this team out until the end of the year is a bad thing. It seems to me that we're definitely not getting the top 5 pick, so I don't see anything wrong in going for the division and some playoff success. The team is very young, we have a lot of financial flexibility, we have all our picks and some extras -- we're in good shape, especially if we draft well.

Freakazoid
12-28-2013, 06:56 PM
Are you talking about what BC did the year after -- i.e. try to add a big contract to "push us over the top"? Or something that he did in 2007 itself?

If Masai picks up an O'Neal-like contract next year, then yes, that will be a massive error. But I don't think riding this team out until the end of the year is a bad thing. It seems to me that we're definitely not getting the top 5 pick, so I don't see anything wrong in going for the division and some playoff success. The team is very young, we have a lot of financial flexibility, we have all our picks and some extras -- we're in good shape, especially if we draft well.

I think he's referring to how we overachieved in strong draft years. That year basically convinced BC that we were a player away from contending. Every single ****ing season he has been looking for that one player. God it's embarrassing.

pulzar
12-28-2013, 06:58 PM
You're reading a lot into my post that wasn't there at all.

I think he's reading into all your posts (lately). It's certainly the impression you've given me, too. You're throwing a lot of hints that say that tank is the only right way, without saying it directly.

So, let's be specific. If you were Masai, what would you do this season? Please, no generic "build the right way", "create the winning foundation", etc. Specifically, what would you do? Would you immediate trade away DD, Lowry, and Salmons for whatever you can get to go for the top 5 pick? Would you wait until trade deadline to see if you can get more? Would you stay put?

If I was Masai, I would listen to any offers that would give me a guaranteed high lottery pick this year. Otherwise, I would let this team play, and start talking to Lowry about what it would take to keep him here longer term.

pulzar
12-28-2013, 07:04 PM
I think he's referring to how we overachieved in strong draft years. That year basically convinced BC that we were a player away from contending. Every single ****ing season he has been looking for that one player. God it's embarrassing.

And so he went and got O'Neal to make us a contender, and it was a terrible decision. I'm with you on that.

I don't think not blowing up this team compares, though, and I think Ink's advocating that.

ink
12-28-2013, 07:05 PM
You're reading a lot into my post that wasn't there at all.

I think he's reading into all your posts (lately). It's certainly the impression you've given me, too. You're throwing a lot of hints that say that tank is the only right way, without saying it directly.

So, let's be specific. If you were Masai, what would you do this season? Please, no generic "build the right way", "create the winning foundation", etc. Specifically, what would you do? Would you immediate trade away DD, Lowry, and Salmons for whatever you can get to go for the top 5 pick? Would you wait until trade deadline to see if you can get more? Would you stay put?

If I was Masai, I would listen to any offers that would give me a guaranteed high lottery pick this year. Otherwise, I would let this team play, and start talking to Lowry about what it would take to keep him here longer term.

We need young elite shapeable talent. The draft is the only place I know of to get talent like that. That's one essential step. To get there, yes, we have to trade Lowry. We may also have to trade DD which is unfortunate because he is so dedicated to the franchise . But we have to be sanguine about it.

ink
12-28-2013, 07:08 PM
I think he's referring to how we overachieved in strong draft years. That year basically convinced BC that we were a player away from contending. Every single ****ing season he has been looking for that one player. God it's embarrassing.

And so he went and got O'Neal to make us a contender, and it was a terrible decision. I'm with you on that.

I don't think not blowing up this team compares, though, and I think Ink's advocating that.

I'm advocating getting better talent-wise. We don't have to blow up the team but we do need to find a way to position ourselves for the next two drafts while retaining key support pieces or obtaining key support players.

Freakazoid
12-28-2013, 07:12 PM
And so he went and got O'Neal to make us a contender, and it was a terrible decision. I'm with you on that.

I don't think not blowing up this team compares, though, and I think Ink's advocating that.

I guess the idea is similar but not exact. Neither GM stepped in when the team overachieved (Masai TBD). I think tanking this season and then targeting FAs would get us closer to Masai and Leiweke's vision faster than making playoffs, waiting for the right trade to come along and then targeting FAs. Alternatively, he could just be collecting assets to trade for a lottery pick but 2 is better than 1.

pulzar
12-28-2013, 07:15 PM
We need young elite shapeable talent. The draft is the only place I know of to get talent like that. That's one essential step. To get there, yes, we have to trade Lowry. We may also have to trade DD which is unfortunate because he is so dedicated to the franchise . But we have to be sanguine about it.

Ok, thanks, got it. I honestly can't see us getting the top 5 pick by trading Lowry. And the way Amir, Val, and even Salmons are playing, even without DD we'll be decent enough to win against the bottom of the league and squeeze a few victories against mediocre teams.

I think the worst case scenario here is not us winning the division -- it is us losing Lowry and DD, and getting the 8th pick in the draft. That's what I fear the most. It's not that I want to take any win I can get, it's that I don't want to go back to a team win no promise whatsoever.

Freakazoid
12-28-2013, 07:22 PM
Ok, thanks, got it. I honestly can't see us getting the top 5 pick by trading Lowry. And the way Amir, Val, and even Salmons are playing, even without DD we'll be decent enough to win against the bottom of the league and squeeze a few victories against mediocre teams.

I think the worst case scenario here is not us winning the division -- it is us losing Lowry and DD, and getting the 8th pick in the draft. That's what I fear the most. It's not that I want to take any win I can get, it's that I don't want to go back to a team win no promise whatsoever.

I think both players are expendable and besides, I don't think Lowry is going to re-sign. I would rather take a shot at Bledsoe anyway if we're going to pay Lowry to stay. It would be sad to see a player like Demar go but I trust Masai enough to let him roll the dice on another prospect sort of like what Philly did with Holiday.

ink
12-28-2013, 07:23 PM
We need young elite shapeable talent. The draft is the only place I know of to get talent like that. That's one essential step. To get there, yes, we have to trade Lowry. We may also have to trade DD which is unfortunate because he is so dedicated to the franchise . But we have to be sanguine about it.

Ok, thanks, got it. I honestly can't see us getting the top 5 pick by trading Lowry. And the way Amir, Val, and even Salmons are playing, even without DD we'll be decent enough to win against the bottom of the league and squeeze a few victories against mediocre teams.

I think the worst case scenario here is not us winning the division -- it is us losing Lowry and DD, and getting the 8th pick in the draft. That's what I fear the most. It's not that I want to take any win I can get, it's that I don't want to go back to a team win no promise whatsoever.

I am probably as conflicted as you are, but I also don't want to pin our hopes on linear development of a grinding team like this. They're gritty and they never quit, which is truly admirable, but it is not the whole answer. MU will have his work cut out for him, preserving what we need/want from the current team, while finding a way to dramatically upgrade our talent.

Canadian_5abi
12-28-2013, 07:26 PM
How can anyone Say we are 2007 Overachieving team? We're 5-1 since Rudy trade. Most of them against the western teams...We are defensively sound and clicking on the offense. This team doesn't sound like the ****** 2007 defense, Soft like their lead player Chris Posh, or an idiot GM in BC. This team is gritty, fights for every lead, and Masai is no BC and NO BARGNANI

Freakazoid
12-28-2013, 07:32 PM
How can anyone Say we are 2007 Overachieving team? We're 5-1 since Rudy trade. Most of them against the western teams...We are defensively sound and clicking on the offense. This team doesn't sound like the ****** 2007 defense, Soft like their lead player Chris Posh, or an idiot GM in BC. This team is gritty, fights for every lead, and Masai is no BC and NO BARGNANI

Because at the end of the day, this team isn't good enough to make it out of the first round of playoffs in most years and their long term potential isn't exactly hopeful. Unless Jonas makes a drastic jump, this season may very well be their ceiling. Continuing to build upon this team and hoping they'll make that next jump would be exactly like 06-07.

Jamiecballer
12-28-2013, 07:37 PM
this is a good team that has a chance to be very good if they acquire some actual players for the bench.

i thought this was a 45-50 win team before the season started, i just didn't realize just how disruptive Rudy's play would be. and that's about what i see now that he's gone.

that's good enough for some, not good enough for others.

ink
12-28-2013, 07:48 PM
this is a good team that has a chance to be very good if they acquire some actual players for the bench.

MU has already improved the bench, that's actually one of the reasons we've improved over the last little while. Right when the Gay trade happened it was obvious we unecessarily depleted our backup PG and big man roles. MU corrected that error and got rid of Gay at the same time. We're actually not bad off the bench with Vasquez and Salmons/Ross and Patterson coming in along with Hansbrough etc.

albertajaysfan
12-28-2013, 08:03 PM
Before the Rudy Gay trade I was an advocate for tanking this season. As mentioned above I didn't realize just how much he was disrupting the offence. 6 games in it is pretty clear how much he hurt team chemistry. I was also advocating a tank based on the assumption Rudy's contract was unmovable.

I think Masai will keep quietly shopping around for both scenarios. However I think they have almost hit the point of no return where they are going to be to good to get a top pick. In which case I think you keep this team together and make a push for the division title just because of what that accomplished in regards to first round opponent.

If they finish 2nd in our division we probably get the 8th seed and play Indiana or Miami in the first round. Or we win the division and play someone like Washington, Charlotte or Detroit. All of whom I think we could take in the first round. Getting to the 2nd round of playoffs would be a huge learning experience for the kids.

Plus then I think you try to make some draft day trades along the lines of Philadelphia. Perhaps nothing quite as spectacular but you never know.

LanceUpperCut
12-28-2013, 08:11 PM
Because at the end of the day, this team isn't good enough to make it out of the first round of playoffs in most years and their long term potential isn't exactly hopeful. Unless Jonas makes a drastic jump, this season may very well be their ceiling. Continuing to build upon this team and hoping they'll make that next jump would be exactly like 06-07.

I don't agree on that part at all.

ink
12-28-2013, 08:23 PM
I don't agree on that part at all.

Grit and heart are essential, but talent is what limits.

Freakazoid
12-28-2013, 08:53 PM
Grit and heart are essential, but talent is what limits.

Yeah, I mean I think we can be the new Atlanta Hawks with this roster but it's not exactly what I imagined based off of Tim and Masai's vision.

Jamiecballer
12-28-2013, 10:24 PM
Grit and heart are essential, but talent is what limits.
In the NBA grit and uncommon effort are talents.

LanceUpperCut
12-28-2013, 10:38 PM
Grit and heart are essential, but talent is what limits.

This team has talent, very young talent but MU also has picks and cap space to add more talent. I'd love a top pick too but I don't think any of us know what this team could turn into. Once MU actually works on improving this team other than just getting rid of two of the worst contacts in the NBA.

pebloemer
12-28-2013, 10:50 PM
Another win for the team.

Seriously, what do we do with Kyle Lowry? Can we extend him mid-season (not sure what the rules are on this)? Should we? Do we still look to deal him?

I have no issue winning games in any season (even a messed up one like this) as long as it isn't on the backs of players that are leaving for nothing in less than a year.

dtmagnet
12-28-2013, 11:25 PM
Another win for the team.

Seriously, what do we do with Kyle Lowry? Can we extend him mid-season (not sure what the rules are on this)? Should we? Do we still look to deal him?

I have no issue winning games in any season (even a messed up one like this) as long as it isn't on the backs of players that are leaving for nothing in less than a year.

Who would our competition be for extending Lowry in the offseason?

Raps Insider 12
12-28-2013, 11:29 PM
Very simple...Kyle Lowry.

He is the engine of this team while Val and Ross are still both developing their games. Without Kyle, this middling team can assure themselves a top 5-7 pick.

With him, a playoff spot, another cloth to pair the with lonely one up in the rafters and a fodder for both Miami and Indiana.

And the need of a deep pocket in the offseason.

Raps Insider 12
12-28-2013, 11:30 PM
By the way, looking at the standings...Massai's former team is now in the doldrums of No Man's Land.

Jamiecballer
12-28-2013, 11:31 PM
Another win for the team.

Seriously, what do we do with Kyle Lowry? Can we extend him mid-season (not sure what the rules are on this)? Should we? Do we still look to deal him?

I have no issue winning games in any season (even a messed up one like this) as long as it isn't on the backs of players that are leaving for nothing in less than a year.

Lets give these tankers a nice big shitburger to eat and win this ****ing thing.

Raps Insider 12
12-28-2013, 11:36 PM
Early January is a tough schedule with 2 games against Indy, one with Miami, Brooklyn, Boston, Washington and Detroit.

FriedTofuz
12-28-2013, 11:45 PM
I can't believe we haven't learned anything from 2007 and may repeat the same thing. It was almost forgivable that BC got sucked into the "success" story of a 47 win season (a very bad year for a serious contender btw) but it's sheer idiocy if Masai repeats the massive error.

Again, I liken it to someone who has never been laid. Sometimes you feel so desperate you'd take anything, but after you've had it and you waited for the right woman, you know you did absolutely the right thing. :)

As Raptors fans we're success virgins.

So inked sucked for the first time, but with the right girl? How cute ;)
That's how you should get it done! :D

ink
12-29-2013, 12:09 AM
I can't believe we haven't learned anything from 2007 and may repeat the same thing. It was almost forgivable that BC got sucked into the "success" story of a 47 win season (a very bad year for a serious contender btw) but it's sheer idiocy if Masai repeats the massive error.

Again, I liken it to someone who has never been laid. Sometimes you feel so desperate you'd take anything, but after you've had it and you waited for the right woman, you know you did absolutely the right thing. :)

As Raptors fans we're success virgins.

So inked sucked for the first time, but with the right girl? How cute ;)
That's how you should get it done! :D

lol uh no I waited for just the right one. ;)

FriedTofuz
12-29-2013, 01:16 AM
lol uh no I waited for just the right one. ;)

That's what I meant, perhaps my grammar sucked and that wasn't interpreted properly, my bad LOL. :cheers:

FriedTofuz
12-29-2013, 01:17 AM
On topic, why cant the raptors appeal to lebron in the offseason if he cant win a title with miami this year?

What if the raptors take the heat to 7 games in the 2nd round, and then miami loses to indiana in the finals. DOES IT OPEN HIS EYES?

pulzar
12-29-2013, 01:36 AM
DOES IT OPEN HIS EYES?

No.

B2B
12-29-2013, 09:10 AM
No.

I'm thinking if Westbrook injury becomes a future problem & OKC takes a step back, Durant could be a potential option coming from a small market, with Drake having some influence & the Raptors featuring the Allstar game.

Oklahoma, is no south beach.

zero opportunity, if the team is tanking.

pebloemer
12-29-2013, 09:45 AM
Who would our competition be for extending Lowry in the offseason?

Just a couple teams that would have space and may be attractive destinations: Orlando, Lakers (depending what they do with Nash). There are always other moving parts as well, depending if teams are able to shed some contracts (like Houston with Asik/Lin - but I doubt that either party wants to revisit that as it went poorly with McHale and Lowry last time).

Also, if Lowry doesn't like it here and wants to try and force TO into a sign and trade situation, other teams could enter the fray (Twolves with Rubio struggling and pressure to keep KLove around) or Knicks would be possibilities then.

With a lack of other PG's available, Lowry would probably be the premier name available, so you have to figure he'll attract interest.

North Yorker
12-29-2013, 11:29 AM
Who would our competition be for extending Lowry in the offseason?

Milwaukee
Lakers
Orlando
Utah
NYK in a S&T maybe?

Jamiecballer
12-29-2013, 11:32 AM
On topic, why cant the raptors appeal to lebron in the offseason if he cant win a title with miami this year?

What if the raptors take the heat to 7 games in the 2nd round, and then miami loses to indiana in the finals. DOES IT OPEN HIS EYES?

Its a nice dream. Lebron is a perfect fit for this group.

North Yorker
12-29-2013, 11:37 AM
I'm thinking if Westbrook injury becomes a future problem & OKC takes a step back, Durant could be a potential option coming from a small market, with Drake having some influence & the Raptors featuring the Allstar game.

Oklahoma, is no south beach.

zero opportunity, if the team is tanking.

Not sure we'd have enough assets to be the high bidder through trade, depends on what Masai does this offseason to gain assets either through trade or free agency.

Maybe Masai's rumored interest in Deng this summer is to eventually flip him?
Deng+Ross+Amir+Raps and NYK 2016 1sts for Durant?

I wouldn't say there is zero opportunity if the team is tanking. Washington almost got Harden in exchange for their newly drafted Beal.

killersweet
12-29-2013, 01:26 PM
Lowry has been playing well and built his stock up. So If MU thinks he is not the PG for this franchise, he should fetch us something decent. After the holidays, we may see some action.

Jamiecballer
12-29-2013, 02:28 PM
the tide of public opinion is shifting quickly, if he waits much longer he will have a hard time justifying it to the fans. i think he's going to keep his team and look for creative ways to get better.

djsunyc
12-29-2013, 02:42 PM
lowry is 28. i think he *can* be a keeper for the next 3-4 years. this is the guy we traded for and if not for jose or rudy, he probably would've played this way the past 1.5 seasons.

i think the spot that needs upgrading is the 2/3. i think we keep ross b/c of his 3 ability and his defense move him to the 2 and would look to upgrade demar for a playmaking SF. i would not be surprised if we trade demar on draft night to get a lottery pick but thats' another discussion.

ross and jonas confidence is growing and casey is starting to trust them more. but the story here is lowry, he is playing like a leader and possibly playing his way to the all star game.

ink
12-29-2013, 02:44 PM
the tide of public opinion is shifting quickly, if he waits much longer he will have a hard time justifying it to the fans. i think he's going to keep his team and look for creative ways to get better.

I doubt MU is affected by tides or any other pendulum swings by the fan base. Just let the team lose three games in a row and fans affected by tides will be drowning in their own anger at this player or that coach. It's how it is and no good GM should be affected by it. BC would have reacted to the fan base but I think MU is cut from a different cloth.

ink
12-29-2013, 02:46 PM
lowry is 28. i think he *can* be a keeper for the next 3-4 years. this is the guy we traded for and if not for jose or rudy, he probably would've played this way the past 1.5 seasons.

i think the spot that needs upgrading is the 2/3. i think we keep ross b/c of his 3 ability and his defense move him to the 2 and would look to upgrade demar for a playmaking SF. i would not be surprised if we trade demar on draft night to get a lottery pick but thats' another discussion.

ross and jonas confidence is growing and casey is starting to trust them more. but the story here is lowry, he is playing like a leader and possibly playing his way to the all star game.

He's been the MVP this season, no doubt. The question is whether he's: 1. playing for a trade, 2. playing for a contract, or 3. playing for this franchise. Whatever he is doing, he has been impressive.

killersweet
12-29-2013, 02:49 PM
I doubt MU is affected by tides or any other pendulum swings by the fan base. Just let the team lose three games in a row and fans affected by tides will be drowning in their own anger at this player or that coach. It's how it is and no good GM should be affected by it. BC would have reacted to the fan base but I think MU is cut from a different cloth.

yup, that's what fans do. A winning streak and the mood is elevated. when a losing streak comes, panic sets in. MU has been very quiet and I am sure he is devising a plan. Team has been playing well and Lowry has been a major part of that. So it would be interesting to see what MU does with lowry.

ink
12-29-2013, 03:11 PM
yup, that's what fans do. A winning streak and the mood is elevated. when a losing streak comes, panic sets in. MU has been very quiet and I am sure he is devising a plan. Team has been playing well and Lowry has been a major part of that. So it would be interesting to see what MU does with lowry.

I don't think there's any doubt that this current roster is showing him what they're made of, and he may be a little surprised.

At the same time, I highly doubt he uses the Eastern standings to measure the team's worth. If he's going to use any standings at all hopefully he uses the league standings to see how this team actually ranks. That's all that matters, how they are in relation to the best.

R. Johnson#3
12-29-2013, 03:58 PM
He's been the MVP this season, no doubt. The question is whether he's: 1. playing for a trade, 2. playing for a contract, or 3. playing for this franchise. Whatever he is doing, he has been impressive.

It's kind of scary knowing how much is riding on Kyle Lowry's shoulders right now. If we keep him and he walks at the end of the year, we're screwed, big time.

HoopsMachine
12-29-2013, 05:30 PM
Being in a weak conference, having the guys more engaged on the offensive end without the Rudy iso's, and having 4 guys (Lowry, Amir, Vasquez and Salmons) playing for new contracts are the reasons for our winning ways. I fully expect Lowry and maybe some other players to be gone by the trade deadline.

Jamiecballer
12-29-2013, 05:35 PM
I doubt MU is affected by tides or any other pendulum swings by the fan base. Just let the team lose three games in a row and fans affected by tides will be drowning in their own anger at this player or that coach. It's how it is and no good GM should be affected by it. BC would have reacted to the fan base but I think MU is cut from a different cloth.
I'm not talking about a temporary swing of good play or any single move. If it becomes apparent to all that this team is quite good and you've waited too long to get a top pick and you still blow it up there could be significant resentment. Especially in a market that hasn't been in position to make the playoffs in a long time.

mike_noodles
12-29-2013, 05:47 PM
I don't think there's any doubt that this current roster is showing him what they're made of, and he may be a little surprised.

At the same time, I highly doubt he uses the Eastern standings to measure the team's worth. If he's going to use any standings at all hopefully he uses the league standings to see how this team actually ranks. That's all that matters, how they are in relation to the best.

Unfortunately it does matter how you stack up in your own conference. You can be one of the 9 worst teams in the league and not get a lottery pick. You have to be very mindful of that.

deaner
12-29-2013, 06:00 PM
Both already had very long histories of winning as franchises. There is a massive difference. There is absolutely no base of success for the Raptors to build on, that's exactly why it's essential to take our time and finally do it right this time.

That's also exactly why we're success virgins. We don't really know what it looks like or how to get there. It's completely uncharted territory. Don't underestimate the challenge of taking a failed expansion franchise and creating a winner out of it.

Sometimes I wonder if you enjoy thinking BC is still in charge. There is whole new regime in town that has a winning pedigree.

lajoie
12-29-2013, 06:33 PM
Sometimes I wonder if you enjoy thinking BC is still in charge. There is whole new regime in town that has a winning pedigree.

Outside of Leiweke (who himself said he wasn't directly involved with day to day operations with the LA teams), who has a winning pedigree?

Colangelo came to Toronto with more extensive accomplishments than Ujiri

ink
12-29-2013, 08:27 PM
Both already had very long histories of winning as franchises. There is a massive difference. There is absolutely no base of success for the Raptors to build on, that's exactly why it's essential to take our time and finally do it right this time.

That's also exactly why we're success virgins. We don't really know what it looks like or how to get there. It's completely uncharted territory. Don't underestimate the challenge of taking a failed expansion franchise and creating a winner out of it.

Sometimes I wonder if you enjoy thinking BC is still in charge. There is whole new regime in town that has a winning pedigree.

I'm not talking about BC. MU hasn't won anything yet and honestly TL was remotely involved in on the court activities in LA. You are aware that CEOs manage business affairs and not basketball operations right? And I was referencing Toronto fans as success virgins. Few of the present generation of fans has ever even seen a competitive team before let alone have ideas for how to build one .

ink
12-29-2013, 08:32 PM
I doubt MU is affected by tides or any other pendulum swings by the fan base. Just let the team lose three games in a row and fans affected by tides will be drowning in their own anger at this player or that coach. It's how it is and no good GM should be affected by it. BC would have reacted to the fan base but I think MU is cut from a different cloth.
I'm not talking about a temporary swing of good play or any single move. If it becomes apparent to all that this team is quite good and you've waited too long to get a top pick and you still blow it up there could be significant resentment. Especially in a market that hasn't been in position to make the playoffs in a long time.

I think MU would make basketball decisions regardless. You make a point about the resentment though and it could impact ticket sales in the short term. It's ok though, Drake can write a song and all will be good. ;) in the end if we trust MU we have to give him the leeway to do what he needs to do.

ink
12-29-2013, 08:41 PM
I don't think there's any doubt that this current roster is showing him what they're made of, and he may be a little surprised.

At the same time, I highly doubt he uses the Eastern standings to measure the team's worth. If he's going to use any standings at all hopefully he uses the league standings to see how this team actually ranks. That's all that matters, how they are in relation to the best.

Unfortunately it does matter how you stack up in your own conference. You can be one of the 9 worst teams in the league and not get a lottery pick. You have to be very mindful of that.

I'm thinking beyond lottery, more towards what the measure of a successful team is.

mjt20mik
12-29-2013, 09:21 PM
The way I see it, is you only become a championship contender if you have 1 of 2 things.

1) A superstar
2) Several All-stars

This team has neither. And sure it may be nice to continue winning and wrecking a pretty ****** Eastern Conference, it is pointless. So unless MU has a way of getting some All-stars through free agency (which I think is 1 in a million), we have to build through the draft.

Ergo, winning with this team is useless.

Jamiecballer
12-29-2013, 09:55 PM
The way I see it, is you only become a championship contender if you have 1 of 2 things.

1) A superstar
2) Several All-stars

This team has neither. And sure it may be nice to continue winning and wrecking a pretty ****** Eastern Conference, it is pointless. So unless MU has a way of getting some All-stars through free agency (which I think is 1 in a million), we have to build through the draft.

Ergo, winning with this team is useless.
A team full of almost all-stars could do it too. I think we've potentially got 4 of those if we can find a way to keep them together and one of them still has potential to be a centerpiece.

killersweet
12-29-2013, 10:16 PM
A team full of almost all-stars could do it too. I think we've potentially got 4 of those if we can find a way to keep them together and one of them still has potential to be a centerpiece.
I don't think that would be good enough for a contending team. You still need a difference maker and I don't think this team still has one. It would be amazing if they can keep DD, Val, Amir and Lowry and then add a player like Durant to the mix. But a scenario like that is a pipe dream.

pulzar
12-29-2013, 10:19 PM
A team full of almost all-stars could do it too. I think we've potentially got 4 of those if we can find a way to keep them together and one of them still has potential to be a centerpiece.

We potentially have four almost all-stars? Heh, I think most teams in the league do ;).

If Lowry played the whole season the way he's been playing in the last 6 games or so, he'd be in the all-star game. I think Val will get there one day. Demar's a maybe, if he continues to get better... Amir's got no chance.

But, anyway, we have the perfect test of how good this team is, coming up. After Chicago, we have Indiana, Miami, Washington, Indiana. It doesn't get much better than Pacers and Heat, so if we win some of those games, we'll have to collectively agree that there's something to this team.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-29-2013, 10:20 PM
This team is just best of the worst.

Some might like that short term "success" and make the playoffs (I probably would), but that's not really aiming for much.

Unless Jonas and/or Ross makes big strides before the trade deadline (show they can be an all star/superstar), you have to trade pieces on this team and start tanking.

Tmath
12-29-2013, 10:34 PM
This team is just best of the worst.

Some might like that short term "success" and make the playoffs (I probably would), but that's not really aiming for much.

Unless Jonas and/or Ross makes big strides before the trade deadline (show they can be an all star/superstar), you have to trade pieces on this team and start tanking.

Why do Jonas and Ross have to make big strides before the deadline if we aren't looking for short term success?

These guys are still very young in this league, and still have a ton of time to improve. We aren't going to win a championship this year, or next year.

We just need them to keep improving, and hopefully by the time they are hitting their prime, Masai has built the team to the point we can contend for a title.

Its all about timing, and smart roster management. You don't have to tank to acquire all-star talent. And even if you do get that "all-star" talent, It doesn't always work out. Its all about bringing in the right players, for the right system.

Tanking is just as risky as any other strategy. Its all about making the right decisions in whatever situation you are in. Some luck here and there never hurts either.

Jamiecballer
12-29-2013, 10:47 PM
We potentially have four almost all-stars? Heh, I think most teams in the league do ;).

If Lowry played the whole season the way he's been playing in the last 6 games or so, he'd be in the all-star game. I think Val will get there one day. Demar's a maybe, if he continues to get better... Amir's got no chance.

But, anyway, we have the perfect test of how good this team is, coming up. After Chicago, we have Indiana, Miami, Washington, Indiana. It doesn't get much better than Pacers and Heat, so if we win some of those games, we'll have to collectively agree that there's something to this team.
OK. We've got 3 already IMO. And one who could knock on the door as early as next year. I don't think most teams do have that. And since none of those 4 have huge deals and our bench guys are under short term deals its not entirely crazy that we could position ourselves for a big FA.

Tmath
12-29-2013, 11:09 PM
OK. We've got 3 already IMO. And one who could knock on the door as early as next year. I don't think most teams do have that. And since none of those 4 have huge deals and our bench guys are under short term deals its not entirely crazy that we could position ourselves for a big FA.

People are also overrating this draft, and at the same time forgetting the 2015 draft could be even stronger.

Nobody even knows for sure who will be entering this coming draft.

Edit: I just realized my post has nothing to do with your post...

koreancabbage
12-29-2013, 11:44 PM
People are also overrating this draft, and at the same time forgetting the 2015 draft could be even stronger.

Nobody even knows for sure who will be entering this coming draft.

Edit: I just realized my post has nothing to do with your post...

this is one of the most talked drafts since Lebron's year - thats saying something. maybe you're really underrating it lol. they have major coverage of the super hyped players - this is a big draft.

2015 draft is too far ahead to even think of. If anything thats the draft noone knows who will be entering it.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-30-2013, 12:26 AM
Why do Jonas and Ross have to make big strides before the deadline if we aren't looking for short term success?

We need an allstar/superstar if we want to actually achieve something more than a first round exit. We don't have that at the moment and Jonas/Ross haven't showed they can be the great player we would need (on a consistent basis). So until someone on this team can be an all star/superstar, we aren't aiming much higher than like 3rd seed this year and barely making the playoffs/missing the playoffs when the East is actually respectable (this year is probably an anomaly). If we continue our trend (going like 5-5 or 4-6 or 6-4 every 10 game stretch), then we miss out of the 2014 draft and it just delays getting the player we need until the 2015 draft (and we know how fans in general are impatient).


These guys are still very young in this league, and still have a ton of time to improve. We aren't going to win a championship this year, or next year.

Of course not. No one expects a championship this year or next year. Championship takes time and the right pieces. We don't have the right pieces right now though (based on what this team has shown so far) so we'd need to get one. This draft is as good as any since we'd have to get a good prospect sooner or later and might as well get it now as opposed to waiting next year or something, which is just a waste of time.


We just need them to keep improving, and hopefully by the time they are hitting their prime, Masai has built the team to the point we can contend for a title.

But does the makeup of this team scream title contender in a few years? Our best player is a FA and he'll probably leave. If we make the playoffs and Lowry leaves in the offseason, that leaves a big chunk in the roster than needs to be refilled.


Its all about timing, and smart roster management. You don't have to tank to acquire all-star talent. And even if you do get that "all-star" talent, It doesn't always work out. Its all about bringing in the right players, for the right system.

We don't have the trade pieces to get the player we need to get us far into the playoffs and we still have some large contracts that by the time we have cap space to sign that good player, a few years would've passed already (which we could've just used to tank this year and then use a year or 2 for development).


Tanking is just as risky as any other strategy. Its all about making the right decisions in whatever situation you are in. Some luck here and there never hurts either.

Well some would say tanking/blowing it up is the right decision for teams who don't have a star player and can't make a push in the higher rankings (that's what the Jazz did after learning that they were not going anywhere with Jefferson and Millsap instead of resigning them). Luck can probably pay off the most in the lottery (if we win), but even if we don't land a top 3, a 4th-6th pick would still be a better shot at something larger compared to retooling the roster we have (which could probably take as long as drafting someone then developing them for a few seasons).

Bramaca
12-30-2013, 12:32 AM
OK. We've got 3 already IMO. And one who could knock on the door as early as next year. I don't think most teams do have that. And since none of those 4 have huge deals and our bench guys are under short term deals its not entirely crazy that we could position ourselves for a big FA.

People keep hoping for that big free agent signing but the odds are not even worth figuring out. Its much more likely and plausible to fill the holes around a great player or two then to attract one to a team like the Raps.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-30-2013, 12:37 AM
He's been the MVP this season, no doubt. The question is whether he's: 1. playing for a trade, 2. playing for a contract, or 3. playing for this franchise. Whatever he is doing, he has been impressive.

His production reeks of 'contract year'.

Lowry looks like the type of guy who will always work but I do not think he'll ever mimic this type of production if he gets a large and long contract this offseason.

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 12:54 AM
Honestly this team is being short-changed. Its got most of the pieces.

Lowry as PG has finally taken stride. He's probably in the best shape of his life. Finally getting the whole team involved -- he's finally stepped it up

DeRozan has taken his game to a whole new level. He's finally getting the fouls that weren't being called in previous years which is adding up his PPG total. He's been more clutch then in past.

Jonas is becoming more confident with each game. I just want Casey to play him in all situations regardless to give him experience. But your starting to see glimse of why he was highly touted.

Ross has also finally step it up, this is more so with the minutes now. Has had some inconsistent games but that's expected from a young player but overall he's finally taking off as well.

Amir is Amir -- tough gritty player. any team would love to have him.

Its a solid core. If MU can go out and pick up a guy like Deng, it might make all the difference for this team from being bottom feeders to top 3. When you look at the East, besides the Heat and Pacers there is no one else that has a better core I think then the Raps. Brooklyn is old, Knicks are falling. Hawks have pieces but I think Raps have more athletic guys. Pistons are hit or miss. But I think the Raps can be right there.

The way the team has played since Gay left is probably the best and most entertaining ball in ages. And its not like all the teams they've played have been crap -- I mean they took it to some high teams and beat some of them. You see how Gay being gone has finally allowed guys to spread the floor and allowed more passes, which is leading to better looks and higher opportunities for passing. Defense has also stepped up as well -- still not where it needs to be but certainly much improved.

I don't want to blow it up -- I know this upcoming draft is good, but man when you look at 2003, how many from there were legit? 2 -- Wade and James and now they play on the same team. But no player in 2014 will be as good as James and maybe not even as good as D Wade -- so for us to tank for hope makes no sense.

Press forward...if this team is legit you can go ahead and sign a Wiggins in 5 years who would come play for a winning club and when this core would likely be done by then or turn into vets like Jonas, Demar and Ross...

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 12:57 AM
His production reeks of 'contract year'.

Lowry looks like the type of guy who will always work but I do not think he'll ever mimic this type of production if he gets a large and long contract this offseason.

Some of it might be for the big contract, but I think if the Raps really do turn it around Lowry will play hard -- almost any player will play hard if the team is succeeding -- I don't think its a fluke that Lowry has really stepped it up in the last few weeks -- it seems like the team is having some legit fun out there, everyone is getting some opportunities and Lowry looks happy actually. He could still be traded but seeing as how the teams had done lately, he may work hard and try to get this team to the playoffs. Obviously off season is another story and if he continues to play well you'll have to pay up, but who do you replace him with since the free agent crop for PG looks weak in 2014...if your taking the step towards playoffs, then you may actually need to keep him now...

Leach11
12-30-2013, 01:04 AM
Assuming this draft is even remotely comparable to Lebron's draft year, I hope people remember that only one player from the top 5 in that draft ever won a championship with the team that drafted him. Dwayne Wade was the only one who won a championship with his draft team and his team had to bring in one of the greatest players of all time to help him do it.

Lebron made it to the NBA Finals once with Cleveland. Carmelo made it out of the first round once with Denver. Bosh made the playoffs once with the Raptors. Only the Heat and the Cavs ever became contenders after that draft and the latter was only a true contender for one year, a year in which they got absolutely decimated in the NBA finals.

We've been down this road before. We got our supposed "franchise player" with Chris Bosh in one of the most talented draft pools in NBA history and we got to the playoffs ONE time, which resulted in a first round exit.

Bramaca
12-30-2013, 01:06 AM
Honestly this team is being short-changed. Its got most of the pieces.

Lowry as PG has finally taken stride. He's probably in the best shape of his life. Finally getting the whole team involved -- he's finally stepped it up

DeRozan has taken his game to a whole new level. He's finally getting the fouls that weren't being called in previous years which is adding up his PPG total. He's been more clutch then in past.

Jonas is becoming more confident with each game. I just want Casey to play him in all situations regardless to give him experience. But your starting to see glimse of why he was highly touted.

Ross has also finally step it up, this is more so with the minutes now. Has had some inconsistent games but that's expected from a young player but overall he's finally taking off as well.

Amir is Amir -- tough gritty player. any team would love to have him.

Its a solid core. If MU can go out and pick up a guy like Deng, it might make all the difference for this team from being bottom feeders to top 3. When you look at the East, besides the Heat and Pacers there is no one else that has a better core I think then the Raps. Brooklyn is old, Knicks are falling. Hawks have pieces but I think Raps have more athletic guys. Pistons are hit or miss. But I think the Raps can be right there.

The way the team has played since Gay left is probably the best and most entertaining ball in ages. And its not like all the teams they've played have been crap -- I mean they took it to some high teams and beat some of them. You see how Gay being gone has finally allowed guys to spread the floor and allowed more passes, which is leading to better looks and higher opportunities for passing. Defense has also stepped up as well -- still not where it needs to be but certainly much improved.

I don't want to blow it up -- I know this upcoming draft is good, but man when you look at 2003, how many from there were legit? 2 -- Wade and James and now they play on the same team. But no player in 2014 will be as good as James and maybe not even as good as D Wade -- so for us to tank for hope makes no sense.

Press forward...if this team is legit you can go ahead and sign a Wiggins in 5 years who would come play for a winning club and when this core would likely be done by then or turn into vets like Jonas, Demar and Ross...

I agree that its the best and most entertaining the team has played in a long, long time but the core of players is sort of like Memphis. A good team but its got limits because the talent isn't there to take it beyond.

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 01:17 AM
I agree that its the best and most entertaining the team has played in a long, long time but the core of players is sort of like Memphis. A good team but its got limits because the talent isn't there to take it beyond.

Its not perfect but most of the core is there. Get a Deng who will bring an extra 16-17 points a night and this team is certainly contenders now. Get rid of Fields and Hayes somehow (will be tough but MU can do it somehow) to clear up cap space. Tighten up the bench. Turn Ross into the 6th man. Gervais, Ross, Patterson, Hans and see if you can pick up someone like Ben Gordon and its a very respectable bench...

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 01:27 AM
Bottom line is this team could easily be something like 17-13 right now. Took Houston to 2 ot on their home court. Took Portland to OT. Cut the lead from 20 to 2 with Miami. Had that epic collapse with GS but were going to have that in the bag on their home court.

Good good teams and they were there thick and thin.

Bramaca
12-30-2013, 01:34 AM
Its not perfect but most of the core is there. Get a Deng who will bring an extra 16-17 points a night and this team is certainly contenders now. Get rid of Fields and Hayes somehow (will be tough but MU can do it somehow) to clear up cap space. Tighten up the bench. Turn Ross into the 6th man. Gervais, Ross, Patterson, Hans and see if you can pick up someone like Ben Gordon and its a very respectable bench...

Gonna have to disagree that they are contenders with a player like Deng. Good team, yes. Contenders, no.

Bramaca
12-30-2013, 01:37 AM
Bottom line is this team could easily be something like 17-13 right now. Took Houston to 2 ot on their home court. Took Portland to OT. Cut the lead from 20 to 2 with Miami. Had that epic collapse with GS but were going to have that in the bag on their home court.

Good good teams and they were there thick and thin.

Individual games in the regular season aren't a great indicator of how they will play in the playoffs. Average teams can have solid showings against the top teams in the regular season but get stomped in the playoffs.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-30-2013, 02:12 AM
Some of it might be for the big contract, but I think if the Raps really do turn it around Lowry will play hard -- almost any player will play hard if the team is succeeding -- I don't think its a fluke that Lowry has really stepped it up in the last few weeks -- it seems like the team is having some legit fun out there, everyone is getting some opportunities and Lowry looks happy actually. He could still be traded but seeing as how the teams had done lately, he may work hard and try to get this team to the playoffs. Obviously off season is another story and if he continues to play well you'll have to pay up, but who do you replace him with since the free agent crop for PG looks weak in 2014...if your taking the step towards playoffs, then you may actually need to keep him now...

That's another worry to think about. I do not think we can keep him so even if we make the playoffs this year, losing him is a huge blow and we'd probably miss the playoffs next year since his role is so important to this team and it'd be hard to replace that.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-30-2013, 02:20 AM
Assuming this draft is even remotely comparable to Lebron's draft year, I hope people remember that only one player from the top 5 in that draft ever won a championship with the team that drafted him. Dwayne Wade was the only one who won a championship with his draft team and his team had to bring in one of the greatest players of all time to help him do it.

Lebron made it to the NBA Finals once with Cleveland. Carmelo made it out of the first round once with Denver. Bosh made the playoffs once with the Raptors. Only the Heat and the Cavs ever became contenders after that draft and the latter was only a true contender for one year, a year in which they got absolutely decimated in the NBA finals.

We've been down this road before. We got our supposed "franchise player" with Chris Bosh in one of the most talented draft pools in NBA history and we got to the playoffs ONE time, which resulted in a first round exit.

Bosh wasn't the problem there. It was the rest of the supporting cast. Bosh was a top 20 player in the league at that point in his prime here. Our next best players were TJ Ford and Jose Calderon.

Same with Cleveland. Lebron was the only thing keeping them alive. Cavs FO was absolutely atrocious considering his best teammate was Mo Williams and Ilgauskas.

Both teams had the most important piece you need. The GMS couldn't surround them with the required supporting cast. We have a GM who knows how to build a great and deep team. The only thing that is missing is the guy who can be the main man on the team.

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 03:23 AM
Individual games in the regular season aren't a great indicator of how they will play in the playoffs. Average teams can have solid showings against the top teams in the regular season but get stomped in the playoffs.

That's fine but tanking isn't necessarily going to solve anything either -- especially when the team built now is more of a playoff team then a bottom feeder. I think even three weeks ago you would consider blowing it up but the team has played their most inspired ball in years! I mean when was the last time the Raps won back-to-back road games against two of the toughest home teams in the league? And then win a home-and-home as decisively as they did this weekend? I think they've really stepped up lately.

No one is saying the Raps will win the championship this year or next year. But if this team can drive towards respectability and get another one or two good players to get them over the hump then maybe. You need to just get over the hump of the 1st round which they've only done once in franchise history -- baby steps. And this year might be as good as any since the Eastern conference is the worst in history.

But winning championships in basketball is the hardest in all of sports since one guy can almost single handly win you one -- think Jordan, LeBron, Kobe. But even those guys needed Pippen, Wade and Shaq/Gasol to get them there. That is unpredictable.

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 03:43 AM
Also look at January's schedule. They have 17 games. I mean the Raps can realistically go 11-6 or 12-5. They got Indiana twice, Miami, Clips and Dallas (who they already beat). I look at everyone else I think they can beat them. Even if they try to tank, its almost impossible with that Jan schedule, if they keep the momentum they will just streamroll over most of those teams...just go for the division now...

mjt20mik
12-30-2013, 03:45 AM
For those stating this team has all-stars, c'mon. Kyle is playing close to an all-star level, but he is no way an all-star. Demar has been putting up good numbers, but he is not an all-star. JV and Amir are no where close. This team is just overachieving in a ****** conference.

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 04:04 AM
For those stating this team has all-stars, c'mon. Kyle is playing close to an all-star level, but he is no way an all-star. Demar has been putting up good numbers, but he is not an all-star. JV and Amir are no where close. This team is just overachieving in a ****** conference.

So? Is Wiggins or Parker or Randle suppose to help them beat the likes of San Antonio or Miami next year? Highly unlikely.

And people forget -- with so many teams wanting to tank, there might be more players available to get than usual with less tussle since so many teams are looking to be bad and hence asking prices might be more reasonable than usual-- so why not take advantage of that?

If the Raps are a top 10 team by late Jan, I say heck with it and trade the 2014 first rounder and package it with maybe a contract we need to get rid of it like Hayes or Fields and get someone half decent back like a PF. I personally like Amir coming off the bench as he brings the energy. And see if you can land Deng somehow since the Bulls may go into full tank mode as well....lots of potential options...

Leach11
12-30-2013, 04:39 AM
Bosh wasn't the problem there. It was the rest of the supporting cast. Bosh was a top 20 player in the league at that point in his prime here. Our next best players were TJ Ford and Jose Calderon.

Same with Cleveland. Lebron was the only thing keeping them alive. Cavs FO was absolutely atrocious considering his best teammate was Mo Williams and Ilgauskas.

Both teams had the most important piece you need. The GMS couldn't surround them with the required supporting cast. We have a GM who knows how to build a great and deep team. The only thing that is missing is the guy who can be the main man on the team.

I see what your saying, but your whole argument rests on the assumption that we will acquire that main man in this draft. I realize that there are a number of potential franchise players in this draft, but there are also a number of terrible teams that are in a better position to acquire these potential franchise players through the lottery.

There are currently 8 teams with 10 wins or less. What happens if we trade all of our good players and we are unable to out-tank these other teams? Essentially we are ****ed. Even if we stock pile on lower end 1st round picks through trades, we're going to have to wait another few years for these players to develop and it's highly unlikely that one of them will turn into a franchise player. On top of this, there is the possibility that these players turn out to be nothing and then we're even more ****ed. People have to remember how many terrible teams there are in this league right now and how many teams are going after the same thing that a lot of you guys are suggesting we got after.

ink
12-30-2013, 04:39 AM
For those stating this team has all-stars, c'mon. Kyle is playing close to an all-star level, but he is no way an all-star. Demar has been putting up good numbers, but he is not an all-star. JV and Amir are no where close. This team is just overachieving in a ****** conference.

So? Is Wiggins or Parker or Randle suppose to help them beat the likes of San Antonio or Miami next year? Highly unlikely.

And people forget -- with so many teams wanting to tank, there might be more players available to get than usual with less tussle since so many teams are looking to be bad and hence asking prices might be more reasonable than usual-- so why not take advantage of that?

If the Raps are a top 10 team by late Jan, I say heck with it and trade the 2014 first rounder and package it with maybe a contract we need to get rid of it like Hayes or Fields and get someone half decent back like a PF. I personally like Amir coming off the bench as he brings the energy. And see if you can land Deng somehow since the Bulls may go into full tank mode as well....lots of potential options...

A couple of seasons ago the answer was Gay. Now apparently it's Deng.

Btw with reference to your first point, who said anyone expected this years rookies to help anyone beat the Spurs or Heat next year?

We need to learn to get away from instant gratification thinking completely.

Leach11
12-30-2013, 04:45 AM
The thing is, we are in a very difficult spot right now. The sample size of the post-Rudy Raptors isn't near large enough to suggest whether or not they are likely to continue their recent success. At this point though, tanking could be very dangerous as there are so many teams gunning for the same thing.

ink
12-30-2013, 05:12 AM
The thing is, we are in a very difficult spot right now. The sample size of the post-Rudy Raptors isn't near large enough to suggest whether or not they are likely to continue their recent success. At this point though, tanking could be very dangerous as there are so many teams gunning for the same thing.

Which tells me one thing: scouts and management league-wide expect very big things from this draft class.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-30-2013, 07:37 AM
I see what your saying, but your whole argument rests on the assumption that we will acquire that main man in this draft. I realize that there are a number of potential franchise players in this draft, but there are also a number of terrible teams that are in a better position to acquire these potential franchise players through the lottery.

There are currently 8 teams with 10 wins or less. What happens if we trade all of our good players and we are unable to out-tank these other teams? Essentially we are ****ed. Even if we stock pile on lower end 1st round picks through trades, we're going to have to wait another few years for these players to develop and it's highly unlikely that one of them will turn into a franchise player. On top of this, there is the possibility that these players turn out to be nothing and then we're even more ****ed. People have to remember how many terrible teams there are in this league right now and how many teams are going after the same thing that a lot of you guys are suggesting we got after.

Well we have to start to get that main man somewhere. Might as well start this draft and go forward from there to see if you need to make more moves. And that's why tank nation shoudl've been in effect as early as possible. If Lowry is not on this team anymore, we can probably see a lot more loses because he's the leader of this team. The longer he is on this team, the longer this team will get wins and more teams will be worse than us. We are 5 games ahead of NY (14th seed in the East) this point in the season (and the gap was probably smaller a few weeks ago). Right now, there is still +50 games where that 5 wins can more than be made up. We wait longer and the chances to reduce the gap is going to get smaller.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-30-2013, 07:55 AM
A couple of seasons ago the answer was Gay. Now apparently it's Deng.

Btw with reference to your first point, who said anyone expected this years rookies to help anyone beat the Spurs or Heat next year?

We need to learn to get away from instant gratification thinking completely.

Completely agree. We've seen a few teams the past 2-3 years already try for instant gratification while not having a definitive and set future. Bucks, 76ers, Jazz and a whole lot of teams this year.

gwrighter
12-30-2013, 10:25 AM
Completely agree. We've seen a few teams the past 2-3 years already try for instant gratification while not having a definitive and set future. Bucks, 76ers, Jazz and a whole lot of teams this year.

Good thing we don't have any of their GM's.

bartron_44
12-30-2013, 10:28 AM
Tanking this season away is crazy talk imo.... This team is easily capable of making the playoffs in the Eastern Conference this year. For the guys that have had to endure several losing seasons already (like DD and Amir), I think management owes it to those guys (and this fan base) to try and get this team back into the playoffs. Our young players need to learn what the game is like in the playoffs, and until they get there they will never know. I think this season would be a great success if we can simply make the playoffs, and get DD,Ross, Amir and JV some playoff experience. (Yes I know Amir was in the playoffs with the Pistons, but he barely played back then)

I think we should be looking to make a trade to acquire a real backup 5 for the games we play against teams with true "big men". Without Gray we really don't have another true 5 on this team other than JV that can guard a 7 footer in the post.... effectively. If we could get another 7 footer, preferably one with playoff experience, I think that would really solidify this team as a playoff contender in the East this year. Since we can even get in as Divisional winner, we would have home court in the first round and even have a shot at making the second round. For a team looking to build a winning culture, I think that kind of experience would be priceless.


I think we should be trying to go for the #3 seed (especially now that Horford has gotten hurt), not trying to tank to get the number 1 pick.

gwrighter
12-30-2013, 10:52 AM
A couple of seasons ago the answer was Gay. Now apparently it's Deng.

Btw with reference to your first point, who said anyone expected this years rookies to help anyone beat the Spurs or Heat next year?

We need to learn to get away from instant gratification thinking completely.

Instant gratification is a matter of perspective. For you, tanking ASAP would be instantly gratifying. A good playoff performance for certain players can and often does raise value. Nuances like this are why we need to sit back and watch how high this team could climb. If a move is made then fine, if not then fine. From what we've seen, MU isn't one to lose value in trade which is what we'd have to do if we want to successfully tank.

ghettosean
12-30-2013, 11:31 AM
This team is fun to watch I really do enjoy watching games post Rudy Gay and evaluating the new talent but I still think we need to trade Lowry. He's playing out of his mind right now but I don't think he's going to resign with us so I say dump him and make some team like the Knicks or another team that needs a PG happy and get youth or picks in exchange. I know where we are in the standings but honestly we are not competing for a title with this squad we still need a superstar on this team and I think getting one through the draft is the best way for us to go... It's still early enough if we make a trade in time it's not like we are running away in the east and NJ and the Knicks still want to get there spots.

ghettosean
12-30-2013, 11:43 AM
Instant gratification is a matter of perspective. For you, tanking ASAP would be instantly gratifying. A good playoff performance for certain players can and often does raise value. Nuances like this are why we need to sit back and watch how high this team could climb. If a move is made then fine, if not then fine. From what we've seen, MU isn't one to lose value in trade which is what we'd have to do if we want to successfully tank.

I only started to use this phrase once I heard B.C defending his J-Val pick because he couldn't play that same year... Brings back fond memories of B.C squirming in certain press conferences though he did make the right pick.

pulzar
12-30-2013, 11:52 AM
Which tells me one thing: scouts and management league-wide expect very big things from this draft class.

It tells me that there are many desperate GMs that have ****** teams with no prospects, and no idea how to improve the team other than through lottery.

gwrighter
12-30-2013, 12:03 PM
It tells me that there are many desperate GMs that have ****** teams with no prospects, and no idea how to improve the team other than through lottery.

This.

Also, bottoming out guarantee's job security. You sell ownership on a "rebuild" who knows how long it could take...

rapsjaysfan88
12-30-2013, 12:14 PM
we are building like indiana , maximizing the later picks we've used ross #8, dd#9, then our top 5 on val. then build a good bench= check. finish 4th if possible, prove we are a team on the rise, free up some cap, keep lowry and sign a free agent like luol deng. as long as miami is around we will never win a chip so 5 yrs off 2 round playoffs isnt bad considering how terrible this franchise has been.

Jamiecballer
12-30-2013, 12:22 PM
this is what i would do. i'm sure everyone will be reading with baited breath lol.

spend the next 2 months making Lowry feel as important and trusted as is humanly possible and go for it. let him know it's his team. winning and feeling like you've finally found a home can do wonders for a guys attitude and level of interest in staying. a happy and motivated Kyle Lowry, i believe, is a very very good player. try and resign him in the off-season. if he walks, he walks.

earlier this season i would have said (and probably did) blow this mother ****er up. but how do you do that now? we are past the 1/3rd point, and we've got a better winning percentage than 14 other teams!! if you try and tank now you are going to end up picking 10th in the draft, or something like that. i've heard it said that we are only like 5 games out of a high draft position. do you know how hard it is to gain 5 games on teams that suck and have the same motivation to suck that you do? it's not easy.

i know the arguments for tanking. a franchise changer would be awesome. but can we realistically get into that position any more? i don't think we can. and making decisions based on the hype of an upcoming draft class is a bad idea IMO. a lot of what is said in October looks foolish the following June.

djsunyc
12-30-2013, 12:22 PM
nuts to bolts...in the postseason, a team needs at least one guy that can playmake and take (and make) the big shots. right now, the only guy on our team that fits the bill is lowry...and he's the pg.

we have decent defense. if ross keeps developing, we have the 3 point area covered between him and lowry.

we need some time for jonas to develop but i see no reason why he can't be our post guy in another year or two.

we have a hustle big that does all the dirty work.

the upgrade we need is a guy that can playmake and hit the 3 from the SF spot. that's why long term, i think derozan is the odd man out. he's a midrange guy but doesn't bring the defense or the playmaking needed in this new nba.

finding that SF will be tough tho (obviously the dream is durant).

as of right now, we play 1 game at a time and we'll see where we go. alot is on lowry's shoulders to be our catalyst.

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 12:51 PM
I still dont get the tank.

In past years we would talk about how the schedule is stacked early on and why the Raps lost. The teams couldn't create shots, couldn't spread the floor, couldn't pass, couldn't get good looks.

Now they played the hardest 3rd of their schedule and are nearly a .500 team and finally doing those things. I get its still a relatively small sample size but I think the Raps are showing us something and proving to us that they can elevate their game. Looking ahead at the schedule I just wonder how they will lose and tank, even if they wanted too. They have one Western road trip left and they play Sac and Utah in 2 of the 4 games. The vast majority of the games are against sub-par Eastern conference opponents and ones I think the Raps can beat most of the time. Many of the Eastern teams still have a harder schedule.

There will be players available to upgrade for the Raps I'm sure. Philly might have Thaddeus Young available -- he'd be a solid PF to add. Deng might also be available for trade. Lots of solid players to take the team to the next level.

At this point for the Raps to get a top 5 pick is almost impossible, barring any significant injury to someone like DeRozan, Lowry or Amir Johnson.

And like another poster said you owe it to guys like Amir and Demar who have worked hard for this team and would likely want a taste of the playoffs. As long as you have Miami in tact your not likely to win anyways, I dont care if you have Wiggins or Parker or Randle.

ghettosean
12-30-2013, 12:55 PM
this is what i would do. i'm sure everyone will be reading with baited breath lol.

spend the next 2 months making Lowry feel as important and trusted as is humanly possible and go for it. let him know it's his team. winning and feeling like you've finally found a home can do wonders for a guys attitude and level of interest in staying. a happy and motivated Kyle Lowry, i believe, is a very very good player. try and resign him in the off-season. if he walks, he walks.

earlier this season i would have said (and probably did) blow this mother ****er up. but how do you do that now? we are past the 1/3rd point, and we've got a better winning percentage than 14 other teams!! if you try and tank now you are going to end up picking 10th in the draft, or something like that. i've heard it said that we are only like 5 games out of a high draft position. do you know how hard it is to gain 5 games on teams that suck and have the same motivation to suck that you do? it's not easy.

i know the arguments for tanking. a franchise changer would be awesome. but can we realistically get into that position any more? i don't think we can. and making decisions based on the hype of an upcoming draft class is a bad idea IMO. a lot of what is said in October looks foolish the following June.

I agree and understand what you are saying but either way it's a risky game...

- Keeping Lowry long term (risky)... He could regress after he gets his fat contract or might just walk and go elsewhere.

- Risky game saying that we are so good right now when we whole heartedly know that there are a bunch of teams in the league tanking for the worst spot in the draft. I know we have improved since the Rudy Gay trade and it's great a great starting PG and a great backup PG but honestly I don't know how good we really are to be honest when all these tanking teams play hard next year (with some new young studs on there squad).

Either way it could pan out well for us or fail... Hard to say.

lajoie
12-30-2013, 12:57 PM
Good thing we don't have any of their GM's.

I'm more impressed with what Sam Hinkie has done with the Sixers than anything Ujiri has with the Raptors.

Hinkie said they were rebuilding, got what looks like 2 lottery picks for Holiday and drafted a guy who looks like a legit superstar in MCW.

And he still has valuable trade chips in Young and Turner to dangle.

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 01:12 PM
I'm more impressed with what Sam Hinkie has done with the Sixers than anything Ujiri has with the Raptors.

Hinkie said they were rebuilding, got what looks like 2 lottery picks for Holiday and drafted a guy who looks like a legit superstar in MCW.

And he still has valuable trade chips in Young and Turner to dangle.

Same can be said with Demar and JVal -- Hinkie had nothing to do with Young and Turner. Yes he made a great trade for Holiday, MU also did well with the Bargnani trade and also looks like we have a 2016 potential lottery pick (Knicks aren't doing anything for a couple of years, less players will be attracted to want to play there and have no 1st rounders to improve).

I think MU can make some nice moves with some of the pieces the Raps have. But at the same time the man isn't dumb enough to just blow it up if the team is finally coming together. Trade deadline is in Feb anyways, I think he'll want to see what the Raps can do the next 10-15 games before making any rash decisions. I think Lowry's worth only goes higher now if he continues to play the way he does. I'm sure MU could trade him off for a young guy/pick and then try to re-sign him in the off-season...

lajoie
12-30-2013, 01:15 PM
Same can be said with Demar and JVal -- Hinkie had nothing to do with Young and Turner. Yes he made a great trade for Holiday, MU also did well with the Bargnani trade and also looks like we have a 2016 potential lottery pick (Knicks aren't doing anything for a couple of years, less players will be attracted to want to play there and have no 1st rounders to improve).

I think MU can make some nice moves with some of the pieces the Raps have. But at the same time the man isn't dumb enough to just blow it up if the team is finally coming together. Trade deadline is in Feb anyways, I think he'll want to see what the Raps can do the next 10-15 games before making any rash decisions. I think Lowry's worth only goes higher now if he continues to play the way he does. I'm sure MU could trade him off for a young guy/pick and then try to re-sign him in the off-season...

I never said he had anything to do with Young and Turner.

C_Mund
12-30-2013, 01:17 PM
Lets give these tankers a nice big shitburger to eat and win this ****ing thing.

One of the best movies of all time.

North Yorker
12-30-2013, 01:27 PM
If we're not getting a high draft pick this year then Masai needs to create some cap space in order to improve the team, which means shedding Novak's and Landry's deals. Packaging them with Hans for Bynum accomplishes this and allows us to re-sign Lowry and retain Greivis and Patterson while giving us cap space this offseason.

I'm not crazy about Deng's injury history but on a 3 year deal at $13-14M/yr he wouldn't be bad.

Get a back-up SF(Saric?) or C (Payne?) in the draft and roll with

Lowry/DeRozan/Deng/Amir/Jonas with Vasquez,Ross,Patterson, and Payne/Saric/draft pick off the bench.

Most likely not a championship team but if we're not gonna tank then it's probably the best we can hope for.

killersweet
12-30-2013, 01:45 PM
I still dont get the tank.

In past years we would talk about how the schedule is stacked early on and why the Raps lost. The teams couldn't create shots, couldn't spread the floor, couldn't pass, couldn't get good looks.

Now they played the hardest 3rd of their schedule and are nearly a .500 team and finally doing those things. I get its still a relatively small sample size but I think the Raps are showing us something and proving to us that they can elevate their game. Looking ahead at the schedule I just wonder how they will lose and tank, even if they wanted too. They have one Western road trip left and they play Sac and Utah in 2 of the 4 games. The vast majority of the games are against sub-par Eastern conference opponents and ones I think the Raps can beat most of the time. Many of the Eastern teams still have a harder schedule.

There will be players available to upgrade for the Raps I'm sure. Philly might have Thaddeus Young available -- he'd be a solid PF to add. Deng might also be available for trade. Lots of solid players to take the team to the next level.

At this point for the Raps to get a top 5 pick is almost impossible, barring any significant injury to someone like DeRozan, Lowry or Amir Johnson.

And like another poster said you owe it to guys like Amir and Demar who have worked hard for this team and would likely want a taste of the playoffs. As long as you have Miami in tact your not likely to win anyways, I dont care if you have Wiggins or Parker or Randle.

You don't owe anything to anyone. They are professional players getting paid for what they do. When it comes to future of the team, MU should do only what is best for the team. If MU feels trading DD or Amir would help this team, then he should go ahead and do that. I am still waiting to see what MU planning on doing. To me personally making the playoffs this year with the current team is still gonna leave the team in the 'No Man's land'. Unless of course you acquire more talent via trades or next year through FA.

Jamiecballer
12-30-2013, 01:48 PM
One of the best movies of all time.

shitburger??

LOL

thank you and i agree. i must have watched it 30 times as a kid.

casey should totally get on that and get a lifesize cut-out of Ujiri for the Raptors locker room.

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 01:56 PM
You don't owe anything to anyone. They are professional players getting paid for what they do. When it comes to future of the team, MU should do only what is best for the team. If MU feels trading DD or Amir would help this team, then he should go ahead and do that. I am still waiting to see what MU planning on doing. To me personally making the playoffs this year with the current team is still gonna leave the team in the 'No Man's land'. Unless of course you acquire more talent via trades or next year through FA.

Sure if the right deal comes along for Demar and Amir I'd be all over it. But what is the likelihood of that? Too many teams tanking and you likely aren't going to trade with someone like the Spurs or Heat, so its kinda hard to say who would take them off your hands and give your a good return -- if your trading them just for the sake of tanking I think that's a dumb move. You still need solid players around your high draft guy -- a guy like Wiggins isn't going to be a miracle worker, he'll need pieces surrounding him to make him good.

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 02:00 PM
If we're not getting a high draft pick this year then Masai needs to create some cap space in order to improve the team, which means shedding Novak's and Landry's deals. Packaging them with Hans for Bynum accomplishes this and allows us to re-sign Lowry and retain Greivis and Patterson while giving us cap space this offseason.

I'm not crazy about Deng's injury history but on a 3 year deal at $13-14M/yr he wouldn't be bad.

Get a back-up SF(Saric?) or C (Payne?) in the draft and roll with

Lowry/DeRozan/Deng/Amir/Jonas with Vasquez,Ross,Patterson, and Payne/Saric/draft pick off the bench.

Most likely not a championship team but if we're not gonna tank then it's probably the best we can hope for.

I mentioned this last night, its a very solid 5, especially if Jonas finally emerges and Ross can be that energy player off the bench. And I agree trading Fields, Hans and someone for Bynum might be a good idea to shed salary. Need to get Hayes off somehow as well.

ink
12-30-2013, 02:20 PM
A couple of seasons ago the answer was Gay. Now apparently it's Deng.

Btw with reference to your first point, who said anyone expected this years rookies to help anyone beat the Spurs or Heat next year?

We need to learn to get away from instant gratification thinking completely.

Instant gratification is a matter of perspective. For you, tanking ASAP would be instantly gratifying.

I stopped reading there. That makes no sense on any level. It's just weak wordplay. For the one thousandth time, this is about much more than tanking. It's not gratifying in any sense, in fact it will take incredible discipline and commitment and with the fickle nature of fans, it will be hell hearing all the complaining and hate while it's happening lol so no it's not gratification and it's not instant. Instant gratification for a fan is winning meaningless games and missing out on Harrison Barnes a few years ago, or winning a worthless division title this year and missing out on the chance to dramatically upgrade our talent. In fact it's so NOT instant we should have a long term plan to secure best possible picks for 2015.

killersweet
12-30-2013, 02:21 PM
Sure if the right deal comes along for Demar and Amir I'd be all over it. But what is the likelihood of that? Too many teams tanking and you likely aren't going to trade with someone like the Spurs or Heat, so its kinda hard to say who would take them off your hands and give your a good return -- if your trading them just for the sake of tanking I think that's a dumb move. You still need solid players around your high draft guy -- a guy like Wiggins isn't going to be a miracle worker, he'll need pieces surrounding him to make him good.

I wasn't suggesting that we trade those guys for sake of trading. I meant MU shouldn't feel that he should keep the team together to make the players happy. Of course you don't trade talent like DD or Amir just to tank. That would be stupid. At the same time, MU should weigh and see what the long term potential of this group is. I am beginning to doubt that MU is going to take the tank route at this point. If tanking was his only intention, he would have made moves in the off season to reflect that. HE wanted to see the team's potential. May be they have swayed him on a different path now.

mike_noodles
12-30-2013, 02:22 PM
I mentioned this last night, its a very solid 5, especially if Jonas finally emerges and Ross can be that energy player off the bench. And I agree trading Fields, Hans and someone for Bynum might be a good idea to shed salary. Need to get Hayes off somehow as well.

I won't get into about Bynum again, but the Jazz might be a better target for shedding salary. They need to pick up $15m for next season just to reach the floor. I wonder if they would do a Hans, Fields, Novak deal for Richard Jefferson. He's a big expiring, and he could bring some experiences to share with the kids.

mjt20mik
12-30-2013, 02:29 PM
So? Is Wiggins or Parker or Randle suppose to help them beat the likes of San Antonio or Miami next year? Highly unlikely.

And people forget -- with so many teams wanting to tank, there might be more players available to get than usual with less tussle since so many teams are looking to be bad and hence asking prices might be more reasonable than usual-- so why not take advantage of that?

If the Raps are a top 10 team by late Jan, I say heck with it and trade the 2014 first rounder and package it with maybe a contract we need to get rid of it like Hayes or Fields and get someone half decent back like a PF. I personally like Amir coming off the bench as he brings the energy. And see if you can land Deng somehow since the Bulls may go into full tank mode as well....lots of potential options...

The problem with this is whole notion of staying in the middle. There is no certainty that Kyle comes back after this season. There is no certainty that this Raptor team that is overachieving will remain in playoff contention after this year.

gwrighter
12-30-2013, 02:36 PM
I'm more impressed with what Sam Hinkie has done with the Sixers than anything Ujiri has with the Raptors.

Hinkie said they were rebuilding, got what looks like 2 lottery picks for Holiday and drafted a guy who looks like a legit superstar in MCW.

And he still has valuable trade chips in Young and Turner to dangle.

Well MCW is the only hit he's had ATM. 1 of the lottery picks is a big man coming off an ACL injury and the other is a pick that is undetermined. For all we know Noel & the lottery pick this season could bust. So because of this uncertainty, the ability to pass judgement upon his work outside of MCW is based upon assumptions and ATM is unwarranted.

Besides, that team plays at the fastest pace and has the worst defence in the league. All of their numbers are inflated.

lajoie
12-30-2013, 02:46 PM
Well MCW is the only hit he's had ATM. 1 of the lottery picks is a big man coming off an ACL injury and the other is a pick that is undetermined. For all we know Noel & the lottery pick this season could bust. So because of this uncertainty, the ability to pass judgement upon his work outside of MCW is based upon assumptions and ATM is unwarranted.

Besides, that team plays at the fastest pace and has the worst defence in the league. All of their numbers are inflated.

Well, given he's only 6 months into his job, I'll take a MCW and what looks like 2 lottery picks in a stacked draft anyday.

On the other hand, what hit has Ujiri made exactly?

gwrighter
12-30-2013, 03:00 PM
Well, given he's only 6 months into his job, I'll take a MCW and what looks like 2 lottery picks in a stacked draft anyday.

On the other hand, what hit has Ujiri made exactly?

Getting rid of 2 unwanted assets in Bargs + Gay. Shedding salary while getting draft picks & improving the overall team.

LanceUpperCut
12-30-2013, 03:06 PM
Well, given he's only 6 months into his job, I'll take a MCW and what looks like 2 lottery picks in a stacked draft anyday.

On the other hand, what hit has Ujiri made exactly?

You really don't see the Gay trade or Bargnani trade's as hits? You know whats really impressive is Denver has a good team with some nice pieces along with there own and a horrible knicks teams picks for the next two years.

Bramaca
12-30-2013, 03:14 PM
That's fine but tanking isn't necessarily going to solve anything either -- especially when the team built now is more of a playoff team then a bottom feeder. I think even three weeks ago you would consider blowing it up but the team has played their most inspired ball in years! I mean when was the last time the Raps won back-to-back road games against two of the toughest home teams in the league? And then win a home-and-home as decisively as they did this weekend? I think they've really stepped up lately.

No one is saying the Raps will win the championship this year or next year. But if this team can drive towards respectability and get another one or two good players to get them over the hump then maybe. You need to just get over the hump of the 1st round which they've only done once in franchise history -- baby steps. And this year might be as good as any since the Eastern conference is the worst in history.

But winning championships in basketball is the hardest in all of sports since one guy can almost single handly win you one -- think Jordan, LeBron, Kobe. But even those guys needed Pippen, Wade and Shaq/Gasol to get them there. That is unpredictable.

Teams don't just make baby steps up and then aquire that player that will take them over the top, they make the baby steps with the player that will take them over the top. The Raps can aquire all the great role players they want it won't get them over the top.

ink
12-30-2013, 03:14 PM
Well, given he's only 6 months into his job, I'll take a MCW and what looks like 2 lottery picks in a stacked draft anyday.

On the other hand, what hit has Ujiri made exactly?

You really don't see the Gay trade or Bargnani trade's as hits? You know whats really impressive is Denver has a good team with some nice pieces along with there own and a horrible knicks teams picks for the next two years.

So far for us it's been addition by subtraction rather than add that impact player

gwrighter
12-30-2013, 03:17 PM
So far for us it's been addition by subtraction rather than add that impact player

This is incorrect. Subtract Gay, add bench depth. No impact player but still an addition.

Bramaca
12-30-2013, 03:18 PM
You really don't see the Gay trade or Bargnani trade's as hits? You know whats really impressive is Denver has a good team with some nice pieces along with there own and a horrible knicks teams picks for the next two years.

Not really. Good trades, yes. Necesary trades, yes. Hits, no. As ink said they didn't aquire the Raps significant value in return.

Bramaca
12-30-2013, 03:19 PM
This is incorrect. Subtract Gay, add bench depth. No impact player but still an addition.

Not something that would describe the trades as a hit though. It was a good trade but not much of an addition.

lajoie
12-30-2013, 03:30 PM
You really don't see the Gay trade or Bargnani trade's as hits? You know whats really impressive is Denver has a good team with some nice pieces along with there own and a horrible knicks teams picks for the next two years.

Not really. They were very good and shrewd moves. Not hits. I don't think the moves delivered the type of building blocks the Holiday trade could yield

killersweet
12-30-2013, 03:36 PM
You really don't see the Gay trade or Bargnani trade's as hits? You know whats really impressive is Denver has a good team with some nice pieces along with there own and a horrible knicks teams picks for the next two years.

I wouldn't call them hits. They were done out of necessity. A pick in this year's draft would have been a hit.

gwrighter
12-30-2013, 03:45 PM
Not something that would describe the trades as a hit though. It was a good trade but not much of an addition.

He did it in 4 months when both players were/are at an all-time low in performance/value. In a vacuum it might not seem like a hit but contextually speaking it definitely was a hit for this team.

ink
12-30-2013, 03:47 PM
You really don't see the Gay trade or Bargnani trade's as hits? You know whats really impressive is Denver has a good team with some nice pieces along with there own and a horrible knicks teams picks for the next two years.

I wouldn't call them hits. They were done out of necessity. A pick in this year's draft would have been a hit.

So true.

And that's not taking anything away from MU. He was dealt a bad hand and he's done some masterful clean up work and rebalanced a gritty grinding roster. But hits? Not yet. Of course in still hopeful ....

ink
12-30-2013, 03:50 PM
Not something that would describe the trades as a hit though. It was a good trade but not much of an addition.

He did it in 4 months when both players were/are at an all-time low in performance/value. In a vacuum it might not seem like a hit but contextually speaking it definitely was a hit for this team.

You're being pretty loose with the word. A hit is that elusive impact player who makes his teammates better. We are not even close to having that player. We still desperately need that hit to happen.

LanceUpperCut
12-30-2013, 03:51 PM
Not true getting a cap space and a first rounder plus two second rounders for Bargs is a huge hit. Try to be a realist here it's a lot more than any of you could of imagined.

gwrighter
12-30-2013, 04:00 PM
You're being pretty loose with the word. A hit is that elusive impact player who makes his teammates better. We are not even close to having that player. We still desperately need that hit to happen.

Maybe there was a mixup I intended the word hit to be in reference to a good MGMT move, not a specific player.

gwrighter
12-30-2013, 04:00 PM
Not true getting a cap space and a first rounder plus two second rounders for Bargs is a huge hit. Try to be a realist here it's a lot more than any of you could of imagined.

Exactly, the return on the Bargs trade exceed expectations by a wide margin.

LanceUpperCut
12-30-2013, 04:09 PM
Not really. They were very good and shrewd moves. Not hits. I don't think the moves delivered the type of building blocks the Holiday trade could yield

Holiday was a young stud who just received his first all-star nod, Bargnani and Gay were maybe 2 of the top five worst contracts in the whole NBA.

The Holiday trade could easily end up as a loss for Philly as much as a win and I think it's way to early to crown it as a hit right now. I get it this draft is a top heavy and the hype is deserved in the sense of a 1-8 pick but it's so overrated from then on, it could still be deep but nothing like hype.

The 2003 draft was great in the sense of 4 or 5 guys but other than that it was pretty horrible but if same draft happened now in 2014 it would be the same thing in the hence of the hype train

Jamiecballer
12-30-2013, 04:15 PM
the first 2 moves were the impressive 9 pitch walks that are going to set up the big 3 run shot. :)

Freakazoid
12-30-2013, 04:24 PM
I love how people are saying the draft is "over hyped". Oh what basis? Surely you know more than half the teams in this league!

killersweet
12-30-2013, 04:28 PM
I love how people are saying the draft is "over hyped". Oh what basis? Surely you know more than half the teams in this league!

When people are so eager for the team to make the playoffs, of course the draft is going to look like an 'over hyped' one. If it is such an 'over hyped' draft, why aren't teams willing to deal this year's draft picks?

Freakazoid
12-30-2013, 04:40 PM
When people are so eager for the team to make the playoffs, of course the draft is going to look like an 'over hyped' one. If it is such an 'over hyped' draft, why aren't teams willing to deal this year's draft picks?

I would mind it less if they provided credible sources or reasons as to why this draft is "overhyped". However, based on everything that I've read and what I've seen from half the league this year, everything points to a strong draft class.

LanceUpperCut
12-30-2013, 05:03 PM
I love how people are saying the draft is "over hyped". Oh what basis? Surely you know more than half the teams in this league!

What the hell does that mean? Like I mentioned before it's top heavy and deserves all the hype for a top 5-6 pick but the whole Wiggins vs. Parker thing has turned it into kind of a circus in my opinion and now it's suddenly full of superstars. I never heard anyone talk about Smart as a potential superstar last year when we all though he was entering that ****** draft but now he is. I could be wrong but that's how I see it.
Not saying there couldn't be any sleeper stars out there ie. Gordon or Ennis(underrated in this draft) but nothing completely out of the norm compared to other years and guys like Hood, Grant, Harris, McDermott etc in the 8-14 range I see decent players but nothing like the hype is leading some to believe.

mike_noodles
12-30-2013, 05:05 PM
I would mind it less if they provided credible sources or reasons as to why this draft is "overhyped". However, based on everything that I've read and what I've seen from half the league this year, everything points to a strong draft class.

Yeah, hard to call a draft class over hyped until after the fact. We won't know until a couple of years from now what this draft class is made of.

Bramaca
12-30-2013, 05:09 PM
Not true getting a cap space and a first rounder plus two second rounders for Bargs is a huge hit. Try to be a realist here it's a lot more than any of you could of imagined.


Exactly, the return on the Bargs trade exceed expectations by a wide margin.

We are being realists. They were trades that needed to be made and they were good trades but we aren't calling it a hit because it isn't. A hit is getting a franchise changing player or a chance at a franchise changing player. Nothing in those moves fits that.

Freakazoid
12-30-2013, 05:26 PM
[/B]
What the hell does that mean? Like I mentioned before it's top heavy and deserves all the hype for a top 5-6 pick but the whole Wiggins vs. Parker thing has turned it into kind of a circus in my opinion and now it's suddenly full of superstars. I never heard anyone talk about Smart as a potential superstar last year when we all though he was entering that ****** draft but now he is. I could be wrong but that's how I see it.
Not saying there couldn't be any sleeper stars out there ie. Gordon or Ennis(underrated in this draft) but nothing completely out of the norm compared to other years and guys like Hood, Grant, Harris, McDermott etc in the 8-14 range I see decent players but nothing like the hype is leading some to believe.

Honestly, I don't really care about what fans or the media thinks. I think it's silly to downplay this draft simply because people are talking about these players more than they should. There's only a handful of teams that are fit to play in the playoffs this year. What else are they going to talk about? How Harden's body language implies that Howard is a terrible teammate? Or how Lebron compares to Michael Jordan? I'm sure they already covered that about a billion times.

Let's consider the draft process for a second. GMs draw from various sources, from scouting reports to statistical projections. Every team has their own specific method for coming to their own conclusions. The fact that nearly half the league have come to the same conclusion, that the reward outweighs the risk, allow us to safely assume that the hype is indeed warranted.

albertajaysfan
12-30-2013, 06:10 PM
We are being realists. They were trades that needed to be made and they were good trades but we aren't calling it a hit because it isn't. A hit is getting a franchise changing player or a chance at a franchise changing player. Nothing in those moves fits that.

That to me is a strange way to evaluate trades.

Did you honestly believe Rudy Gay or Andrea Bargnani would net a franchise changing player or the chance to get one?

lajoie
12-30-2013, 06:17 PM
That to me is a strange way to evaluate trades.

Did you honestly believe Rudy Gay or Andrea Bargnani would net a franchise changing player or the chance to get one?

Its not about evaluating trades. Its what is a definition of a hit.

And yes, thats why some people don't consider the Gay or Bargnani trades a hit.

ink
12-30-2013, 06:27 PM
That to me is a strange way to evaluate trades.

Did you honestly believe Rudy Gay or Andrea Bargnani would net a franchise changing player or the chance to get one?

I think you missed his point. The Gay and Bargnani trades were very good moves. They weren't hits. He didn't say they were bad trades.

It's a very strange way to evaluate trades to say that jettisoning unwanted players and cleaning up the cap constitutes a hit. That's all. We really need to raise our standards in here. We have bought into failure thinking completely, as in, it's so impressive that we broke even or that we win the worst division in pro sport. Come on guys, seriously, do you really want our GM to limit himself to house cleaning?

It's awesome that he and Casey have built/executed the team concept they have. We have all wanted that for a decade. But we also have to know that we're not even close to our goal. We are not aiming to just make the playoffs right away. We have to dramatically improve at least one if not two positions to be seriously competitive in this league.

THOSE moves, those hits, have obviously not happened. That's what he's saying.

ink
12-30-2013, 06:29 PM
the first 2 moves were the impressive 9 pitch walks that are going to set up the big 3 run shot. :)

Now, that would be a hit. I'm hoping for it just like you are. :) It just hasn't happened yet, which is the point several of us are trying to get people to understand.

LanceUpperCut
12-30-2013, 06:29 PM
Its not about evaluating trades. Its what is a definition of a hit.

And yes, thats why some people don't consider the Gay or Bargnani trades a hit.

But yet you think Henskie trading Holiday for two unknowns who have a very small chance of being a star are hits?

ink
12-30-2013, 06:31 PM
Maybe there was a mixup I intended the word hit to be in reference to a good MGMT move, not a specific player.

We definitely agree on that. Those were really astute moves.

LanceUpperCut
12-30-2013, 06:32 PM
I think you missed his point. The Gay and Bargnani trades were very good moves. They weren't hits. He didn't say they were bad trades.

It's a very strange way to evaluate trades to say that jettisoning unwanted players and cleaning up the cap constitutes a hit. That's all. We really need to raise our standards in here. We have bought into failure thinking completely, as in, it's so impressive that we broke even or that we win the worst division in pro sport. Come on guys, seriously, do you really want our GM to limit himself to house cleaning?

It's awesome that he and Casey have built/executed the team concept they have. We have all wanted that for a decade. But we also have to know that we're not even close to our goal. We are not aiming to just make the playoffs right away. We have to dramatically improve at least one if not two positions to be seriously competitive in this league.

THOSE moves, those hits, have obviously not happened. That's what he's saying.

How is getting a future 1st and two second rounders breaking even? The way the Knicks and Denver are going the 2016 pick could be a really good one. But yet getting a late late 1st for a guy like Lowry would be consider a huge win by many in here.

pulzar
12-30-2013, 06:34 PM
Lol, when the argument turns into what the definition of a "hit trade" is, or what it means to be "overhyped", you know we've run out of things to discuss.

We need some real news or fresh rumours. :)

mjt20mik
12-30-2013, 06:36 PM
Lol, when the argument turns into what the definition of a "hit trade" is, or what it means to be "overhyped", you know we've run out of things to discuss.

We need some real news or fresh rumours. :)

lol.

Sucks that there are so many days break between games.

Jamiecballer
12-30-2013, 06:36 PM
But yet you think Henskie trading Holiday for two unknowns who have a very small chance of being a star are hits?
Ya that's what I don't get. A great move is a great move IMO. so far we are 2 for 2.

lajoie
12-30-2013, 06:37 PM
But yet you think Henskie trading Holiday for two unknowns who have a very small chance of being a star are hits?

They are getting what looks like two lottery picks, so yes that is an exceptional return for a team in tear down mode. Yes, they could be busts or stars, who knows. Point is they had no interest in being stuck in the middle and got a great return for Holiday.

And no, I never once called the Sixers trade a hit. Please tell me where I said that.

ink
12-30-2013, 06:49 PM
Lol, when the argument turns into what the definition of a "hit trade" is, or what it means to be "overhyped", you know we've run out of things to discuss.

We need some real news or fresh rumours. :)

lol, I hear you. But we really do need to improve at least two positions really dramatically and I'm not sure people really get how important that is. That is why timing is so important here. There is an opportunity to improve this year and next in the draft that makes any short term success pale in comparison.

lajoie
12-30-2013, 06:52 PM
Lol, when the argument turns into what the definition of a "hit trade" is, or what it means to be "overhyped", you know we've run out of things to discuss.

We need some real news or fresh rumours. :)

I'm not even sure how this started. All I said was I was impressed with what the Sixers had done given the direction they are going in.

albertajaysfan
12-30-2013, 07:16 PM
I think you missed his point. The Gay and Bargnani trades were very good moves. They weren't hits. He didn't say they were bad trades.

It's a very strange way to evaluate trades to say that jettisoning unwanted players and cleaning up the cap constitutes a hit. That's all. We really need to raise our standards in here. We have bought into failure thinking completely, as in, it's so impressive that we broke even or that we win the worst division in pro sport. Come on guys, seriously, do you really want our GM to limit himself to house cleaning?

It's awesome that he and Casey have built/executed the team concept they have. We have all wanted that for a decade. But we also have to know that we're not even close to our goal. We are not aiming to just make the playoffs right away. We have to dramatically improve at least one if not two positions to be seriously competitive in this league.

THOSE moves, those hits, have obviously not happened. That's what he's saying.

Semantics. You are arguing semantics, which I may add someone else used. How do you know what he meant by using those words?

But since you answered I will dialogue since that is the point of a forum, so here goes.

When your franchise has no flexibility and has a .333 winning percentage. Plays some of the worst basketball I have witnessed in the NBA. Two trades cleaning up the roster and the cap space of the team is a hit. Because to me a hit is a move in the proper direction.

Go ahead argue all you want about how we need to be terrible to get talent. Do you know how many top 5 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them in in the last 20 years? I can only find 2, Tim Duncan and Dwayne Wade. Although in a strange twist Michael Beasley may join those two this season.

My point is that being so hellbent on going in one direction has the potential to make you blind to other possibilities.

I don't see Masai blowing this team up. In the past he has proven that he is unlikely to go that route with Denver. I see history repeating itself and at this point I am willing to give Masai the benefit of the doubt.

To be clear I do agree that one more significant piece to this team could make us serious contenders. But I believe we would have to dismantle this team in such a drastic way to get that top pick it isn't worth the risk anymore.

Jamiecballer
12-30-2013, 07:25 PM
if you have a life threatening illness, the first thing you do is beat the disease. then you plan your trip to Hawaii in 5 years.

this roster had 2 very serious diseases and smartly we have dealt with them first. whatever you want to call it, that's A+ work. the rest is ridiculous semantics.

ink
12-30-2013, 07:33 PM
I think you missed his point. The Gay and Bargnani trades were very good moves. They weren't hits. He didn't say they were bad trades.

It's a very strange way to evaluate trades to say that jettisoning unwanted players and cleaning up the cap constitutes a hit. That's all. We really need to raise our standards in here. We have bought into failure thinking completely, as in, it's so impressive that we broke even or that we win the worst division in pro sport. Come on guys, seriously, do you really want our GM to limit himself to house cleaning?

It's awesome that he and Casey have built/executed the team concept they have. We have all wanted that for a decade. But we also have to know that we're not even close to our goal. We are not aiming to just make the playoffs right away. We have to dramatically improve at least one if not two positions to be seriously competitive in this league.

THOSE moves, those hits, have obviously not happened. That's what he's saying.

Semantics. You are arguing semantics, which I may add someone else used. How do you know what he meant by using those words?

But since you answered I will dialogue since that is the point of a forum, so here goes.

When your franchise has no flexibility and has a .333 winning percentage. Plays some of the worst basketball I have witnessed in the NBA. Two trades cleaning up the roster and the cap space of the team is a hit. Because to me a hit is a move in the proper direction.

Go ahead argue all you want about how we need to be terrible to get talent. Do you know how many top 5 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them in in the last 20 years? I can only find 2, Tim Duncan and Dwayne Wade. Although in a strange twist Michael Beasley may join those two this season.

My point is that being so hellbent on going in one direction has the potential to make you blind to other possibilities.

I don't see Masai blowing this team up. In the past he has proven that he is unlikely to go that route with Denver. I see history repeating itself and at this point I am willing to give Masai the benefit of the doubt.

To be clear I do agree that one more significant piece to this team could make us serious contenders. But I believe we would have to dismantle this team in such a drastic way to get that top pick it isn't worth the risk anymore.

You're assuming I'm blind and haven't read my posts acknowledging how conflicted and difficult this situation is for MU. And/or your post was a point made to the general forum. I know there are multiple ways to do everything. But there aren't multiple ways to obtain elite, young, affordable, shapeable talent. I don't like the idea of losing games to gain ground in the long run any more than you do. I just accept it as a necessary evil.

ink
12-30-2013, 07:39 PM
if you have a life threatening illness, the first thing you do is beat the disease. then you plan your trip to Hawaii in 5 years.

this roster had 2 very serious diseases and smartly we have dealt with them first. whatever you want to call it, that's A+ work. the rest is ridiculous semantics.

The guy who made the original point had his point missed, so the clarification completely mattered.

It's also laughable to dismiss it as semantics when getting that " hit is the very thing this franchise desperately needs to break out of no mans land. If MU really does want to get us out of no mans land he's going to have to come up with that hit.

Semantics my *** lol, it's the type of make or break move GMs like riley and Ainge make to nail down championship calibre teams. We need it and it has not happened yet. That couldn't be more important a point to make.

Jamiecballer
12-30-2013, 07:42 PM
The guy who made the original point had his point missed, so the clarification completely mattered.

It's also laughable to dismiss it as semantics when getting that " hit is the very thing this franchise desperately needs to break out of no mans land. If MU really does want to get us out of no mans land he's going to have to come up with that hit.

Semantics my *** lol, it's the type of make or break move GMs like riley and Ainge make to nail down championship calibre teams. We need it and it has not happened yet. That couldn't be more important a point to make.
so anything short of championship contender is failure? get ready to be disappointed my friend.

LanceUpperCut
12-30-2013, 07:49 PM
We could always get are core of guys in a winning mentality with some playoff attempts then just Sign Wiggins when he's a FA and to be the final piece. :cheers:

ink
12-30-2013, 07:49 PM
so anything short of championship contender is failure? get ready to be disappointed my friend.

Are you talking to Tim Leiweke? He set the bar.

And why not? I know this franchise has only ever failed. It doesn't mean we have to accept the thinking that kept us there in oblivion.

Why not set the bar high? Sport is full of disappointment. But to AIM so low is one of the worst things you can do.

Tmath
12-30-2013, 08:33 PM
I watch basketball for entertainment.

As long as the team is fun to watch, and I get to see some playoff basketball consistently, I'm happy.

pulzar
12-30-2013, 08:39 PM
Hollinger's Power Rankings now have us at #3 in the East, #11 overall.

I guess that means we're still below all of West playoff teams, but then, you only need to beat one of them to win it all, right? ;)

Sanyo
12-30-2013, 09:04 PM
People talk about tanking as if its just easy to do -- you have to convince 10 guys and a coach to not try their hardest, which is impossible, especially when they have a realistic shot at the playoffs. Casey is also playing for a contract so its a catch 22 because he sure as hell ain't going to throw games for anyone Leiweke, Masai or anyone be damned! He'd rather be fired then throw away games...

B2B
12-30-2013, 09:34 PM
if you have a life threatening illness, the first thing you do is beat the disease. then you plan your trip to Hawaii in 5 years.

this roster had 2 very serious diseases and smartly we have dealt with them first. whatever you want to call it, that's A+ work. the rest is ridiculous semantics.

What happens if you don't beat your illness?.

If I had a life threatening illness, I would look to make the most of what time I have left, why risk chance when death is inevitable?.

Their is only one way to guarantee you make it to Hawaii & that is to make the most of what you do have, not what you may have.

B2B
12-30-2013, 09:38 PM
lol, what teams goal is not to win a championship,

Jamiecballer
12-30-2013, 09:40 PM
What happens if you don't beat your illness?.

If I had a life threatening illness, I would look to make the most of what time I have left, why risk chance when death is inevitable?.

Their is only one way to guarantee you make it to Hawaii & that is to make the most of what you do have, not what you may have.
i think they got my point without you piggybacking on it good sir :p

ink
12-30-2013, 09:42 PM
The team needed some basic moves made and they were made. I highly doubt TL hired Masai just to do what he has done to date and I highly doubt MU would be satisfied with doing groundwork. Now that the no-brainer moves have been made, the real moves that will tell us what he's truly capable of can begin.

ink
12-30-2013, 09:46 PM
People talk about tanking as if its just easy to do ..

Really? Few if any here do.

B2B
12-30-2013, 09:55 PM
I don't get the temporary success angle.

If they find success this year, why would they not be able to sustain or better it?.

The core players are under 24, 2 in their 2nd year 21/22.
Cap is clearing.
Masai has already acquired an additional pick in 2016 & may net additional picks in trade.
Depth issue has been somewhat rectified.

Only long term issue at this point IMO is Lowry's impending extension.

djsunyc
12-30-2013, 09:57 PM
btw, there will be other drafts after this one. totally possible we make the playoffs this year, let lowry walk, trade derozan for a draft pick and then tank next season. expect the unexpected.

B2B
12-30-2013, 10:15 PM
btw, there will be other drafts after this one. totally possible we make the playoffs this year, let lowry walk, trade derozan for a draft pick and then tank next season. expect the unexpected.

What happens if a scenario plays out where this team upsets a playoff contender?.

Everything comes down to simply not forcing a situation/direction.

Said it before, say it again. There's no start/end, decisions/direction are continuous.

On one end you have the Spurs who have effectively made the most of all avenues (including tanking) off a 60 win season based on a solid foundation of development, coaching & decision making.

On the other you have the Cavs who have been extremely lucky fortunate in the draft with Lebron, 3 #1's in a decade but can't sustain or gain any success because of poor foundation of development, coaching & decision making.

killersweet
12-30-2013, 10:54 PM
People talk about tanking as if its just easy to do -- you have to convince 10 guys and a coach to not try their hardest, which is impossible, especially when they have a realistic shot at the playoffs. Casey is also playing for a contract so its a catch 22 because he sure as hell ain't going to throw games for anyone Leiweke, Masai or anyone be damned! He'd rather be fired then throw away games...

Who here said tanking is easy? It is very difficult just like trades and getting guys to sign here. However it can be done if the management wants to take the route. IT is not like we are deep team to begin with. One key injury to this core and the team will struggle.

Canadian_5abi
12-30-2013, 11:09 PM
NBA should've named Kyle Lowry player of the week and not Chris Bosh. ‪#‎WhereRiggedHappens‬

P.S. Not sure if this deserved a post, so I'm just posing in here..

ink
12-30-2013, 11:42 PM
btw, there will be other drafts after this one. totally possible we make the playoffs this year, let lowry walk, trade derozan for a draft pick and then tank next season. expect the unexpected.

True enough and if it comes to that, so be it.

lajoie
12-30-2013, 11:56 PM
NBA should've named Kyle Lowry player of the week and not Chris Bosh. ‪#‎WhereRiggedHappens‬

P.S. Not sure if this deserved a post, so I'm just posing in here..

Did you not see Chris Bosh's game against Portland? That performance exceeded anything Lowry did.

pulzar
12-31-2013, 12:08 AM
True enough and if it comes to that, so be it.

And if tanking is in the cards for us, that's the most probable way of it happening.

LanceUpperCut
12-31-2013, 12:13 AM
Did you not see Chris Bosh's game against Portland? That performance exceeded anything Lowry did.

Debatable Lowry's last game was pretty damn nice 32/8/11 on 10/17 shooting night but yeah Bosh had the buzzer beater.

LanceUpperCut
12-31-2013, 12:19 AM
True enough and if it comes to that, so be it.

There's also a good chance some of these top guys in the draft might hold out for another year to.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 12:21 AM
Ok for those pro-tanking...if you were the Raps GM how do you complete the tank?? I see people talking about tanking but not how they'd go about it. Sure trading Lowry makes sense he's on fire and if you can get a pick and some emerging young guy then great ... but I mean I still dont' think the Raps tank to the point where they have a shot at a top 5. So then what??

And what do you do if the Raps go...7-3 or better in the next 10 games and are say 3rd in the East...?

Freakazoid
12-31-2013, 12:23 AM
I think you missed his point. The Gay and Bargnani trades were very good moves. They weren't hits. He didn't say they were bad trades.

It's a very strange way to evaluate trades to say that jettisoning unwanted players and cleaning up the cap constitutes a hit. That's all. We really need to raise our standards in here. We have bought into failure thinking completely, as in, it's so impressive that we broke even or that we win the worst division in pro sport. Come on guys, seriously, do you really want our GM to limit himself to house cleaning?

It's awesome that he and Casey have built/executed the team concept they have. We have all wanted that for a decade. But we also have to know that we're not even close to our goal. We are not aiming to just make the playoffs right away. We have to dramatically improve at least one if not two positions to be seriously competitive in this league.

THOSE moves, those hits, have obviously not happened. That's what he's saying.

Funnily enough, a lot of people have mentioned how the draft doesn't usually pan out in the long run for most franchises. Usually the problem lies with management and not in the player. For instance, I think it's completely nonsensical to point out how the Cavs "tanking" didn't work out for them, when it's obvious their talent was and still is horribly mismanaged. If Buford was in charge, how different would their team's fortunes be? The strategy works, but part of the problem with losing teams is that they're often in the lottery because of poor management. Rarely are there teams that are genuinely devoid of talent. I think these managers lack in what Masai excels at. 2 simple trades and our problems with chemistry/"fit" seemingly disappeared overnight. I'm excited to see what he can do with greater value or a franchise player for that matter.

koreancabbage
12-31-2013, 12:23 AM
they would be even better if they changed the team colors to black and gold lol (referring to article on the front page of the Raptors page)

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 12:31 AM
I think the best time to elevate will be mid to late January -- I think by then you'll know for sure if the Raps can actually have a real run at the playoffs or if the last two weeks has been fluke and the team falters... thats about 15-20 games and more than enough to elevate what direction MU should ultimately go...

But I will say we can get Parker or Wiggins or Randle... bottom line King James isn't gonna be run over by them kids, the Heat will be the Kings of the East for three more years (unless significant injury occurs) so tanking makes no sense to me anyways...at least enjoy 2-3 years of potential playoff ball -- either way the Raps arent gonna be winning any championships regardless...

Freakazoid
12-31-2013, 12:32 AM
Ok for those pro-tanking...if you were the Raps GM how do you complete the tank?? I see people talking about tanking but not how they'd go about it. Sure trading Lowry makes sense he's on fire and if you can get a pick and some emerging young guy then great ... but I mean I still dont' think the Raps tank to the point where they have a shot at a top 5. So then what??

And what do you do if the Raps go...7-3 or better in the next 10 games and are say 3rd in the East...?

I don't think Lowry will be back and I don't think he'll be worth whatever he'll be asking for. I'll rather spend a bit more and net a player like Bledsoe. As a result, I would rather get assets for Lowry instead of losing him in FA for nothing.

Then I would start Patterson over Amir for "spacing".

With two of are very best defensive players effectively gone, we'll be one of the worst defensive teams in the league without the offensive efficiency to cover it up.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 12:35 AM
I don't think Lowry will be back and I don't think he'll be worth whatever he'll be asking for. I'll rather spend a bit more and net a player like Bledsoe. As a result, I would rather get assets for Lowry instead of losing him in FA for nothing.

Then I would start Patterson over Amir for "spacing".

With two of are very best defensive players effectively gone, we'll be one of the worst defensive teams in the league without the offensive efficiency to cover it up.

But your also assuming no other team will be pulling off these kinds of trickery...

Freakazoid
12-31-2013, 12:37 AM
I think the best time to elevate will be mid to late January -- I think by then you'll know for sure if the Raps can actually have a real run at the playoffs or if the last two weeks has been fluke and the team falters... thats about 15-20 games and more than enough to elevate what direction MU should ultimately go...

But I will say we can get Parker or Wiggins or Randle... bottom line King James isn't gonna be run over by them kids, the Heat will be the Kings of the East for three more years (unless significant injury occurs) so tanking makes no sense to me anyways...at least enjoy 2-3 years of potential playoff ball -- either way the Raps arent gonna be winning any championships regardless...

This doesn't make sense at all. 2-3 years would allow them to develop and take over the league when the Heat are old and washed up. Yes, as a fan, instant gratification would be great. We're finally in the playoffs again (yay?)! But we also have a habit of regretting overachieving in years with strong drafts. I wish I could count the number of times where a poster lamented how we could have gotten Durant or how if we didn't make late season pushes we could have gotten PG, Harden, Curry, Barnes etc. Ideally, under a new GM it would have made sense to break the habit but the East is just horrendous this year so I can't even be upset about it.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 12:40 AM
This doesn't make sense at all. 2-3 years would allow them to develop and take over the league when the Heat are old and washed up. Yes, as a fan, instant gratification would be great. We're finally in the playoffs again (yay?)! But we also have a habit of regretting overachieving in years with strong drafts. I wish I could count the number of times where a poster lamented how we could have gotten Durant or how if we didn't make late season pushes we could have gotten PG, Harden, Curry, Barnes etc. Ideally, under a new GM it would have made sense to break the habit but the East is just horrendous this year so I can't even be upset about it.

OKC has Durant/Westbrook. LAC has Griffin/Paul. I mean there are other teams who are awesome too... yeah a guy like Jabari could be a star, but I mean there is no guarantee.

You also failed to mention in your above analysis -- that D Casey is gonna agree to this, cause I'm pretty sure he isn't planning on tanking without a guaranteed deal in place -- as long as he doesnt there is no chance he pulls off any kind of rotation in order to fail...

Freakazoid
12-31-2013, 12:42 AM
But your also assuming no other team will be pulling off these kinds of trickery...

Honestly, it wouldn't matter. With Casey's defensive scheme, Vazquez and Patterson would be so detrimental to our defense that even D-League players would have career nights. They're not good enough offensively to make up the differential.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 12:43 AM
Honestly, it wouldn't matter. With Casey's defensive scheme, Vazquez and Patterson would be so detrimental to our defense that even D-League players would have career nights. They're not good enough offensively to make up the differential.

Fair enough...but what if the Raps draft 9th or higher??? Then you pretty much f'd up the team long-term...

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 12:49 AM
I'll even go on a limb and say only one player from this draft will actually make any kind of impact for their team to the point where they will be have legit shot at the championship -- just one (who knows who the player will be).

Looking at 2003. Lebron went once to the finals and got killed before needing to go to Miami to join D Wade and Bosh (both drafted in 2003) -- so you needed virtually the best three players from that draft to actually have a legit chance now at a dynasty.

Carmelo who? And Bosh failed in Toronto. D Wade got the Heat one championship but the Heat was trash the year before Bosh/Lebron came in.

So there is no guarantees man...the thing Toronto needs to do is build up credibility. If they do that, go get wiggins or whomever in 5 years when he is a free agent...

Freakazoid
12-31-2013, 12:49 AM
OKC has Durant/Westbrook. LAC has Griffin/Paul. I mean there are other teams who are awesome too... yeah a guy like Jabari could be a star, but I mean there is no guarantee.

You also failed to mention in your above analysis -- that D Casey is gonna agree to this, cause I'm pretty sure he isn't planning on tanking without a guaranteed deal in place -- as long as he doesnt there is no chance he pulls off any kind of rotation in order to fail...

Well it's easy to just say there's "no guarantee". I mean, here we are, entrusting our future with Masai but if we can't trust him to make the right pick, then how can we trust him the direction that we're going in. If you're going to assume that Masai is going to create a meaningful future without tanking, then why can't you make the same assumption that whoever Masai is going to pick is going to be a stud?

Honestly,I don't think Casey is HC material. An expiring coach's stance is inconsequential for me.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-31-2013, 12:50 AM
Fair enough...but what if the Raps draft 9th or higher??? Then you pretty much f'd up the team long-term...

That's why you tank as early as possible. To avoid results like this. I do not think we have to worry about that unless we stack up on so much wins now then make trades in February and end up being bad enough to just miss out on the playoffs.

ink
12-31-2013, 12:52 AM
I think you missed his point. The Gay and Bargnani trades were very good moves. They weren't hits. He didn't say they were bad trades.

It's a very strange way to evaluate trades to say that jettisoning unwanted players and cleaning up the cap constitutes a hit. That's all. We really need to raise our standards in here. We have bought into failure thinking completely, as in, it's so impressive that we broke even or that we win the worst division in pro sport. Come on guys, seriously, do you really want our GM to limit himself to house cleaning?

It's awesome that he and Casey have built/executed the team concept they have. We have all wanted that for a decade. But we also have to know that we're not even close to our goal. We are not aiming to just make the playoffs right away. We have to dramatically improve at least one if not two positions to be seriously competitive in this league.

THOSE moves, those hits, have obviously not happened. That's what he's saying.

Funnily enough, a lot of people have mentioned how the draft doesn't usually pan out in the long run for most franchises. Usually the problem lies with management and not in the player. For instance, I think it's completely nonsensical to point out how the Cavs "tanking" didn't work out for them, when it's obvious their talent was and still is horribly mismanaged. If Buford was in charge, how different would their team's fortunes be? The strategy works, but part of the problem with losing teams is that they're often in the lottery because of poor management. Rarely are there teams that are genuinely devoid of talent. I think these managers lack in what Masai excels at. 2 simple trades and our problems with chemistry/"fit" seemingly disappeared overnight. I'm excited to see what he can do with greater value or a franchise player for that matter.

Great points. If we trust our GM, and all of us think he's sound in his decision making skills, there's no reason to doubt he could handle a rebuild through the draft very well. I completely agree with your point about CLE management being the problem there. I mean, except for Irving did anyone think their picks were good considering the options they had? I mean, I'm Canadian and proud of it but seriously, Bennett #1?? I have complete confidence that Masai would make more astute picks than that.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 12:54 AM
Well it's easy to just say there's "no guarantee". I mean, here we are, entrusting our future with Masai but if we can't trust him to make the right pick, then how can we trust him the direction that we're going in. If you're going to assume that Masai is going to create a meaningful future without tanking, then why can't you make the same assumption that whoever Masai is going to pick is going to be a stud?

Honestly,I don't think Casey is HC material. An expiring coach's stance is inconsequential for me.

MU doesn't have a magic ball, neither does anybody else. This is why Durant was drafted 2nd. This is why Kobe was traded from Charlotte to LA. This is why we drafted Bargs over Aldridge.

I mean your guess is as good as mine as to who will take their team to the gloryland. We don't know if Parker will emerge, or Wiggins, or Randle or Exum.. I mean who knows? The mock drafts change almost on a daily basis as to who will be drafted 1st.

Look at 2012-- so far the best guy from that draft was 6th (Lillard). In fact that was also a stacked draft and only Anthony Davis has done anything decent from those who were picked in the top 5.

Drummond picked 9th is probably the 2nd best so far... and we skipped him for Ross.

So as you see...you just don't know who will be great and who will turn bust...

Raps08-09 Champ
12-31-2013, 12:57 AM
Cavs management has always been garbage since they draft Lebron. You have the best player in the game and you don't want to give up picks/spend a couple more million to get the guys you need? Lol.

Also, yea they are horrible when it comes to drafting. Could've had something like

C-Jonas
PF-Varejao
SF-Barnes
SG-McLemore
PG-Ivring

ink
12-31-2013, 12:58 AM
I think the best time to elevate will be mid to late January -- I think by then you'll know for sure if the Raps can actually have a real run at the playoffs or if the last two weeks has been fluke and the team falters... thats about 15-20 games and more than enough to elevate what direction MU should ultimately go...

But I will say we can get Parker or Wiggins or Randle... bottom line King James isn't gonna be run over by them kids, the Heat will be the Kings of the East for three more years (unless significant injury occurs) so tanking makes no sense to me anyways...at least enjoy 2-3 years of potential playoff ball -- either way the Raps arent gonna be winning any championships regardless...

This doesn't make sense at all. 2-3 years would allow them to develop and take over the league when the Heat are old and washed up. Yes, as a fan, instant gratification would be great. We're finally in the playoffs again (yay?)! But we also have a habit of regretting overachieving in years with strong drafts. I wish I could count the number of times where a poster lamented how we could have gotten Durant or how if we didn't make late season pushes we could have gotten PG, Harden, Curry, Barnes etc. Ideally, under a new GM it would have made sense to break the habit but the East is just horrendous this year so I can't even be upset about it.

Sadly people either have no memories or just lose rationality when the thought of playoffs (?) comes up. I saw the raptors in the last few playoffs and I'd be happy never to have witnessed that. I'd rather wait and be patient.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:01 AM
Sadly people either have no memories or just lose rationality when the thought of playoffs (?) comes up. I saw the raptors in the last few playoffs and I'd be happy never to have witnessed that. I'd rather wait and be patient.

You still havent come up with your suggestions to tank that will include a) Casey being onboard. b) having a crystal ball to see if the Raps will get a top 5-6 pick c) any of those guys actually being significant in the league...

Raps need to earn respect anyways. Say we get Parker -- and he's a bust or has some injury

Remember this team has drafted vince carter, tracy mcgrady, roy hibbert (tho never played), chris bosh and we still didn't get anywhere. Yes those players were great (McGrady elsewhere) but they still didn't produce anything significant. You still need the right pieces surrounding the team in order to win... unless again you are the Heat and have three future hall of famers in their prime...

gwrighter
12-31-2013, 01:03 AM
Sadly people either have no memories or just lose rationality when the thought of playoffs (?) comes up. I saw the raptors in the last few playoffs and I'd be happy never to have witnessed that. I'd rather wait and be patient.

The way the team is playing now I think would be a fun team to watch in the playoffs.

ink
12-31-2013, 01:03 AM
Sadly people either have no memories or just lose rationality when the thought of playoffs (?) comes up. I saw the raptors in the last few playoffs and I'd be happy never to have witnessed that. I'd rather wait and be patient.

You still havent come up with your suggestions to tank that will include a) Casey being onboard. b) having a crystal ball to see if the Raps will get a top 5-6 pick c) any of those guys actually being significant in the league...

Nobody has a crystal ball under any circumstances.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:05 AM
Cavs management has always been garbage since they draft Lebron. You have the best player in the game and you don't want to give up picks/spend a couple more million to get the guys you need? Lol.

Also, yea they are horrible when it comes to drafting. Could've had something like

C-Jonas
PF-Varejao
SF-Barnes
SG-McLemore
PG-Ivring

Well Raps could have kept Hibbert and drafted Aldridge and drafted Drummond... I mean no team is perfect when it comes to drafting. Portland skipped on Durant. But they are ok when they picked the best player at 6th (Lillard) -- sometimes as much as people don't think -- its just luck...

Freakazoid
12-31-2013, 01:06 AM
Fair enough...but what if the Raps draft 9th or higher??? Then you pretty much f'd up the team long-term...

As opposed to what exactly? I don't see how this team would have greater long term success by making playoffs in a weak Eastern conference. At least by sucking, they get an asset out of it. Personally, I wouldn't be mad if they made playoffs, more Raptors basketball for me.


I'll even go on a limb and say only one player from this draft will actually make any kind of impact for their team to the point where they will be have legit shot at the championship -- just one (who knows who the player will be).

Looking at 2003. Lebron went once to the finals and got killed before needing to go to Miami to join D Wade and Bosh (both drafted in 2003) -- so you needed virtually the best three players from that draft to actually have a legit chance now at a dynasty.

Carmelo who? And Bosh failed in Toronto. D Wade got the Heat one championship but the Heat was trash the year before Bosh/Lebron came in.

So there is no guarantees man...the thing Toronto needs to do is build up credibility. If they do that, go get wiggins or whomever in 5 years when he is a free agent...

No one ever said that there would be guarantees. However, we're more likely to be a contender with a franchise player than without one. I think Toronto is more likely to get one through the draft than through free agency. I'm under no illusion that a franchise caliber talent would take our division title seriously.

Lastly, all those "failures" that you speak of result from a small sample. I mean, how many teams have won a championship in the last decade? I don't expect Toronto to have the same appeal as LA or Boston in FA, so logically, I expect to look for talent in the draft like San Antonio. In addition, most of the franchise players you named suffered from poor management. It's not a surprise that Wade is the only player that you've named that has only won with the team that drafted him. Riley would not have hired Mike Brown. He would not have capped out on Shaq, Antawn and Mo Williams as Lebron's supporting cast. I think Masai is smart and patient enough to ignore band aid solutions to his problems.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:07 AM
Nobody has a crystal ball under any circumstances.

Then? You want to give up a potential 3rd place finish, some respectability and potential ability to get free agents for "maybe" the next big one who may or may not pan out? And that's ONLY if the Raps are bad enough to sink to bottom 5... which at this point looks grim.

ink
12-31-2013, 01:07 AM
Sadly people either have no memories or just lose rationality when the thought of playoffs (?) comes up. I saw the raptors in the last few playoffs and I'd be happy never to have witnessed that. I'd rather wait and be patient.

The way the team is playing now I think would be a fun team to watch in the playoffs.

We have seen a good team like the Spurs shut them down. We don't have the elite playmakers (plural) or scorers to fight through playoff defences. The a Spurs gave us and every other club with PVRs a preview of how to dispatch the Raptors very game but overmatched players .

ink
12-31-2013, 01:09 AM
Cavs management has always been garbage since they draft Lebron. You have the best player in the game and you don't want to give up picks/spend a couple more million to get the guys you need? Lol.

Also, yea they are horrible when it comes to drafting. Could've had something like

C-Jonas
PF-Varejao
SF-Barnes
SG-McLemore
PG-Ivring

Well Raps could have kept Hibbert and drafted Aldridge and drafted Drummond... I mean no team is perfect when it comes to drafting. Portland skipped on Durant. But they are ok when they picked the best player at 6th (Lillard) -- sometimes as much as people don't think -- its just luck...

Do you have confidence in Masai or not? The moves you've listed strike me as the kind of moves GMs get fired for ultimately. Do you expect Masai to **** up like that? Do we respect him and trust him or not? Simple question.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-31-2013, 01:10 AM
Well Raps could have kept Hibbert and drafted Aldridge and drafted Drummond... I mean no team is perfect when it comes to drafting. Portland skipped on Durant. But they are ok when they picked the best player at 6th (Lillard) -- sometimes as much as people don't think -- its just luck...

I can see some reasons for picks like Bargnani (avoid redundancy), Ross (need), Hibbert (we were never going to keep him anyways), Oden (top player playing premium position). Cavs picks are completely out of the blue. I don't see justification for Waiters, Thompson or Bennett except for short sighted moves. Luck plays a part of it but you need some knowledge as well too. Cavs seem to have the luck getting top picks but they have no clue how to capitalize on it.

gwrighter
12-31-2013, 01:13 AM
We have seen a good team like the Spurs shut them down. We don't have the elite playmakers (plural) or scorers to fight through playoff defences. The a Spurs gave us and every other club with PVRs a preview of how to dispatch the Raptors very game but overmatched players .

I honestly believe that playoffs would benefit our style of defensive play. We're a scrappy team so the more contact allowed the better IMO. We don't have the finesse player or the closer but who knows, anything can happen. Playoffs are where superstars are made.

I don't expect the Raps to win vs. the top 4 teams in the league but if they could come out of it with at least 1 or 2 wins that would be a success IMO.

ink
12-31-2013, 01:13 AM
Nobody has a crystal ball under any circumstances.

Then? You want to give up a potential 3rd place finish, some respectability and potential ability to get free agents for "maybe" the next big one who may or may not pan out? And that's ONLY if the Raps are bad enough to sink to bottom 5... which at this point looks grim.

Yes.

Because I don't think there's any respectability whatsoever in winning the Titanic division. I think we can agree that it's a joke right?

lajoie
12-31-2013, 01:15 AM
1 or 2 wins in the playoffs is a success? Well, that certainly falls short of all those championships and parade route plans that Tim Leiweke kept talking about.

Freakazoid
12-31-2013, 01:16 AM
MU doesn't have a magic ball, neither does anybody else. This is why Durant was drafted 2nd. This is why Kobe was traded from Charlotte to LA. This is why we drafted Bargs over Aldridge.

I mean your guess is as good as mine as to who will take their team to the gloryland. We don't know if Parker will emerge, or Wiggins, or Randle or Exum.. I mean who knows? The mock drafts change almost on a daily basis as to who will be drafted 1st.

Look at 2012-- so far the best guy from that draft was 6th (Lillard). In fact that was also a stacked draft and only Anthony Davis has done anything decent from those who were picked in the top 5.

Drummond picked 9th is probably the 2nd best so far... and we skipped him for Ross.

So as you see...you just don't know who will be great and who will turn bust...

It all comes down to management. There are teams that you know that will do their due diligence and draft well. If you're going to trust him to make this team good without a lottery pick, you might as well trust him with his drafting ability because there's no guarantees with both. Dallas recently won a championship and cleared cap space only to sign Calderon and Ellis. Houston, a relatively storied franchise, cleared cap only to sign Asik and Lin prior to their luck with Harden. So really, this whole "no guarantees" goes both ways. I don't see how winning the Atlantic will build a winning culture, but if we do miss the draft, more playoff basketball for me.

gwrighter
12-31-2013, 01:19 AM
I just trust Ujiri to do the right thing in whatever it is. Until he erodes that trust the man getting paid millions to make these decisions gets the benefit of the doubt.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:20 AM
Yes.

Because I don't think there's any respectability whatsoever in winning the Titanic division. I think we can agree that it's a joke right?

Still havent' heard how you would have the team tank in a way that if a guy like Wiggins or Parker came in next year they could be instant contenders....except that you dont have a crystal ball -- so your praying really?

lajoie
12-31-2013, 01:22 AM
Still havent' heard how you would have the team tank in a way that if a guy like Wiggins or Parker came in next year they could be instant contenders....except that you dont have a crystal ball -- so your praying really?

Where are you getting this instant contender from? No one has ever said that. If they tank, it's going to be a long term process

Raps08-09 Champ
12-31-2013, 01:32 AM
Where are you getting this instant contender from? No one has ever said that. If they tank, it's going to be a long term process

Yup. It will not happen overnight. Thunder waited 3 years after drafting Durant to make the playoffs. Have solid drafting with high draft picks and it should be the same length of time. Have to be patient though. We will never begin the process though without first obtaining a high (top 6 I'd say) lottery pick.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:35 AM
Yup. It will not happen overnight. Thunder waited 3 years after drafting Durant to make the playoffs. Have solid drafting with high draft picks and it should be the same length of time. Have to be patient though. We will never begin the process though without first obtaining a high (top 6 I'd say) lottery pick.

And Harden and Westbrook -- lets be honest -- it took luck...cause I mean Portland could have taken Durant and OKC (then Seattle) Oden... then what???

ink
12-31-2013, 01:36 AM
Yes.

Because I don't think there's any respectability whatsoever in winning the Titanic division. I think we can agree that it's a joke right?

Still havent' heard how you would have the team tank in a way that if a guy like Wiggins or Parker came in next year they could be instant contenders....except that you dont have a crystal ball -- so your praying really?

It's not incumbent upon me to lay out a plan. We all know how the best teams have done it. Masai will figure it out if it comes to that.

ink
12-31-2013, 01:38 AM
Still havent' heard how you would have the team tank in a way that if a guy like Wiggins or Parker came in next year they could be instant contenders....except that you dont have a crystal ball -- so your praying really?

Where are you getting this instant contender from? No one has ever said that. If they tank, it's going to be a long term process

He might have confused the phrase about instant gratification. There is nothing instant about a rebuild.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:39 AM
Anyways it's pointless to debate -- MU is the only one who will make the ultimate choice -- I think lets see 10-15 games if they go 10-5 or something I say keep and try to get another player (Thaddeus Young, Luol Deng) or if they fail, then yeah tank... but I mean I dont think the Raps are getting a top 6 pick anyways so defeats the purpose of being 8th or 9th -- rather see some playoff ball and lose to the Heat then another ****** season in the HOPES of MAYBE getting a franchise player...

Jamiecballer
12-31-2013, 01:39 AM
I'm okay with being pretty good :shrugs:

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:40 AM
He might have confused the phrase about instant gratification. There is nothing instant about a rebuild.

Still havent heard how you'd tank...

ink
12-31-2013, 01:41 AM
I just trust Ujiri to do the right thing in whatever it is. Until he erodes that trust the man getting paid millions to make these decisions gets the benefit of the doubt.

I agree. And that's why I don't buy into the riskiness argument about building through the draft. It's actually something very suited to MUs strengths in talent evaluation.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:42 AM
It's not incumbent upon me to lay out a plan. We all know how the best teams have done it. Masai will figure it out if it comes to that.

No offense but its a lazy answer...yes ultimately its up to him... no one can control that. But if your so sure about a tank, you should at least come up with some argument as to how you'd achieve it without killing this team long-term...

ink
12-31-2013, 01:45 AM
He might have confused the phrase about instant gratification. There is nothing instant about a rebuild.

Still havent heard how you'd tank...

It's pretty damned obvious and pretty difficult at the same time. We've been posting about it since last summer. Where have you been?

ink
12-31-2013, 01:47 AM
It's not incumbent upon me to lay out a plan. We all know how the best teams have done it. Masai will figure it out if it comes to that.

No offense but its a lazy answer...yes ultimately its up to him... no one can control that. But if your so sure about a tank, you should at least come up with some argument as to how you'd achieve it without killing this team long-term...

Let me correct you too. I'm not so sure about a tank as you call it. You're flogging a straw man. Read my posts .

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:47 AM
It's pretty damned obvious and pretty difficult at the same time. We've been posting about it since lasts unmet . Where have you been?

I wasnt' here -- so you tell me...

MrSoFreshSoClea
12-31-2013, 01:48 AM
What do you make of the SUNS then? These guys were supposed to tank but look what happened. Raptors don't need to tank, and it doesn't look like they will. Indiana got Paul George and they certainly didn't tank for him did they?

ink
12-31-2013, 01:49 AM
Where are you getting this instant contender from? No one has ever said that. If they tank, it's going to be a long term process

Yup. It will not happen overnight. Thunder waited 3 years after drafting Durant to make the playoffs. Have solid drafting with high draft picks and it should be the same length of time. Have to be patient though. We will never begin the process though without first obtaining a high (top 6 I'd say) lottery pick.

And those were three long years for the Thunder. Nothing about rebuilding is fast, instant or easy.

ink
12-31-2013, 01:50 AM
It's pretty damned obvious and pretty difficult at the same time. We've been posting about it since lasts unmet . Where have you been?

I wasnt' here -- so you tell me...

Use search and stop trolling .

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:52 AM
Use search and stop trolling .

WOW!!! Dude I'm not gonna waste time searching your posts... plus if you really had a plan you could spare a few mins like you have been the last few posts instead of calling me a troll -- if anything you are a troll cause you say one thing but you cant back up your argument -- how am I troll when Im making an argument and your not??

Bramaca
12-31-2013, 01:52 AM
Ok for those pro-tanking...if you were the Raps GM how do you complete the tank?? I see people talking about tanking but not how they'd go about it. Sure trading Lowry makes sense he's on fire and if you can get a pick and some emerging young guy then great ... but I mean I still dont' think the Raps tank to the point where they have a shot at a top 5. So then what??

And what do you do if the Raps go...7-3 or better in the next 10 games and are say 3rd in the East...?

First point of yours I want to address is one that isn't in this post I'm responding to. You have mentioned a few times about 'how do you convince Casey and the players to lose'. You don't, thats not how tanking is or should be done. Nobody can or should expect the players and coaches to try not to win games, their job is to go out there and try their best. "Tanking" is entirely a managerial decision. If a gm wants young players to be put on the floor to develope then they have to create a roster where the best option for the coach is to put those players on the floor.

As for your question about how to complete the "tank", I think its too late to expect to be bad enough to be a bottom 5 team. Even if the Raps unloaded Lowry, DD, and Amir today for scraps they would likely at absolute worst go 12-42 over their remaining games which would still give them 25 wins for the season.

The best option right now is to trade Lowry, very likely with some other asset (Ross or Knicks 2016 1st) for a young player who the Raps consider as having a higher ceiling but the other team is willing to give up for the right package because a) that player hasn't shown enough yet that the team is locked on them or b) that player is nearing the end of their rookie contract and the team isn't sure if they are willing to pay what is necesary to keep them. My personal favorite would be Antetokounmpo alhtough I think Milwaukee is thinking more highly of him with every passing game. There are ofcourse other players that could be considered too. You won't be seeing teams trading their picks in this draft until after the lottery is done so you can't expect picks out of trades during the season. However, once the draft is upon us then picks will be up for grabs and thats when the Raps should look at trading their pick plus whatever asset is needed to move up in the draft. Although it may be tough to move up it is easier to move up the higher your pick is. So if the Raps have the #10 pick or something like that it is easier to move up then if they had a late teens pick.

IMO thats how you start it, try to get a young asset with Lowry and whatever is needed and then look to move up in the draft if needed.

Sanyo
12-31-2013, 01:53 AM
And those were three long years for the Thunder. Nothing about rebuilding is fast, instant or easy.

You also forgot they got lucky drafting Westbrook and Harden...and that they were lucky that Portland drafted Oden instead of Durant...

ink
12-31-2013, 01:58 AM
Use search and stop trolling .

WOW!!! Dude I'm not gonna waste time searching your posts... plus if you really had a plan you could spare a few mins like you have been the last few posts instead of calling me a troll -- if anything you are a troll cause you say one thing but you cant back up your argument -- how am I troll when Im making an argument and your not??

Back up the argument? Lol. Don't play that game. You are trolling at this point. I could easily say to you to give me your plan for building through free agency but I wouldn't want to see it . We have thousands of nonsense trade ideas in the trade threads and virtually none of them are worth reading. The discussion here is not to play GM and pretend , it is whether this team has potential enough to forego the talent in this draft .