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View Full Version : If Nets dont turn it around Kidd likely gone by ASG



spreadeagle
12-27-2013, 10:31 PM
Not really a shocker


tís a mess. The Nets are 9-19 heading into the weekend and itís hard to see how Jason Kidd is going to pull them out of it.

Which could cost him his job, reports Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo Sports.

Hereís the question management is grappling with: Does Brooklyn start unloading its star players and stay the course with the coach, or unload the coach and let someone else coach these star players?

The loss of center Brook Lopez doesnít deliver Kidd the guarantee of surviving his first season as coach. Whatever the dismal Atlantic Division standings say about the Nets trailing first place by only three games, Kidd wonít reach the All-Star break without restoring order to his team.

The report says that as things have gotten worse Kidd has isolated himself in the organization, away from management and the players. Thatís not good.

Struggling teams need a lot of structure and very defined roles for players, which helps them turn things around and start to gain confidence. That isnít happening in Brooklyn, Wojnarowski reports.

More than once, sources said, players have stood in the locker room and told Kidd they donít understand their roles, that thereís confusion about their principles. When the Nets players keep insisting they donít have a team identity, theyíre offering code words for Kiddís inability to give them clear structure, organization and vision.

The report gets into Lawrence Frank being let go, Iím not going to beat that dead horse again. Suffice to say, with Frank gone Kidd doesnít have a scapegoat anymore.

The bottom line is the bottom line ó Mikhail Prokhorov is paying $190 million for this team and he isnít getting the contender he wanted. Heís not even getting a playoff team as of right now. If youíre spending that kind of money, you want your moneyís worth.

If youíre not getting it, you demand changes. That should worry Kidd.

That said, if Kidd is fired GM Billy King and Prokhorovís ownership group need to step to the podium at the press conference and accept the responsibility for the mistakes they made with this hire and roster construction. Weíll see if they would be willing to do that. http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/12/27/report-if-nets-dont-turn-around-kidd-likely-gone-by-all-star-game/

Hawkeye15
12-27-2013, 10:50 PM
Kidd was a ridiculous hire to begin with, but to blame him for KG/Pierce/Terry finally dropping off a cliff for being old, and his GM signing the often injured AK, and on top of that, the injuries we ALL EXPECTED (except Nets fans), how is this Kidd's fault?

This team was a paper strong team with age and injury history. Anyone who actually thought they would contend is delusional. Been saying it since last summer.

PhillyFaninLA
12-27-2013, 10:56 PM
You don't fire a new coach in the first year before the all star break

shep33
12-27-2013, 11:07 PM
It was a weird hire to begin with. BK is gonna get the boot first though. Then Kidd

Chronz
12-27-2013, 11:08 PM
Kidd was a ridiculous hire to begin with, but to blame him for KG/Pierce/Terry finally dropping off a cliff for being old, and his GM signing the often injured AK, and on top of that, the injuries we ALL EXPECTED (except Nets fans), how is this Kidd's fault?

This team was a paper strong team with age and injury history. Anyone who actually thought they would contend is delusional. Been saying it since last summer.

We all expected Brook to go down for the season? Nothing delusional about liking this teams chances if healthy and if KG/Pierce could have staved off regression for another year. They looked deep albeit flawed in the starting lineup.

Surely their performance has surprised even you

ghettosean
12-27-2013, 11:14 PM
Kidd was a ridiculous hire to begin with, but to blame him for KG/Pierce/Terry finally dropping off a cliff for being old, and his GM signing the often injured AK, and on top of that, the injuries we ALL EXPECTED (except Nets fans), how is this Kidd's fault?

This team was a paper strong team with age and injury history. Anyone who actually thought they would contend is delusional. Been saying it since last summer.

This!

Kidd just got out of an NBA uniform and to just give him a head coaching job of a team that looks like a serious contender was ridiculous for any rookie head coach --> especially one with no coaching experience.

He's only fixing this if he subs himself in when Deron is sucking... lol

KniCks4LiFe
12-27-2013, 11:29 PM
They ain't firing a 1st yr. coach that early. Sources w/ no legit source.

I just got home and read a ridiculous stat.

Livingston 20 pts.
D-Will 9?

are they serious w/ this dude?

force_within
12-28-2013, 12:08 AM
Nets FO was very wrong hiring Kidd..there are lots of more experienced coach than Kidd..

setman2000
12-28-2013, 01:01 AM
Billy King should be fired 5 minutes before Kidd. Incompetent.

slashsnake
12-28-2013, 03:31 AM
I don't think Kidd is the issue there. I think very few coaches make a major plus or minus to a teams record. Most are average, maybe 10-15% great, and 10-15% awful. Just depends on who they have on that roster.

I don't think coaching makes that team healthy or recaptures youth from the old players on it. You chose Kidd, you tried a last hurrah run, now give him the rebuild. Let him learn and grow with the team. Not even Phil Jackson is coming in and turning this into a .500 team with who they have right now.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2013, 04:14 AM
We all expected Brook to go down for the season? Nothing delusional about liking this teams chances if healthy and if KG/Pierce could have staved off regression for another year. They looked deep albeit flawed in the starting lineup.

Surely their performance has surprised even you

did I think they would be this bad? No. But I had literally zip faith they would hold up, and knew injuries were coming. Did I predict it to crush their young star? Of course not. I simply never bought the Nets as a contender at all. You should have seen the slip with KG, Pierce, and companies play the last 2 years, and put them on the same roster as JJ, a Deron who hasn't been the same in 3 years, and those expectations.

I figured they won 45 games, and were bounced in round 1. So yes, I didn't even see this coming...

AIMelo=KillaDUO
12-28-2013, 04:53 AM
How do u predict injuries tho? Hawk?

I just don't see how Avery was the problem, then pj, now Kidd?

Chrisclover
12-28-2013, 06:20 AM
I doubt if PP and KG could stave off injuries. Too challenging for them.

slashsnake
12-28-2013, 06:53 AM
How do u predict injuries tho? Hawk?

I just don't see how Avery was the problem, then pj, now Kidd?

The injuries isn't hard. Garnett has only played 70+ games once in the past 5 years. 04-05 was the last time he played 80 in a season.

AK has missed games left and right too 18, 18, 24 in his past 3 years in the NBA.

If you have an old team, injuries shouldn't be a surprise


PJ hasn't been a winning coach since the mid-90's. He was a stopgap solution, no more. Even had he gotten them out of the first round, I doubt they would have held on to him.

Avery... Ehhh... He'll win with a talented team and lose with a bad one. Nothing special there, but he got 3 years to prove it.

RLundi
12-28-2013, 07:36 AM
"If"? They aren't going to turn it around, this team is simply awful. If anyone deserves to be fired, it's Billy King. I don't get it, does he have something on Prokorov? Witness tampering, fraud, insider trading- this guy must know SOMETHING and that's why he's still employed. How many bad decisions does the man have to make before he gets canned?

KnicksorBust
12-28-2013, 08:29 AM
Hit me.

astonmartin10
12-28-2013, 09:29 AM
Kidd needs to be an assistant coach first. Rookie head coach for a contender was stupid. The Nets are a mess. 190 million team?!?!

JasonJohnHorn
12-28-2013, 09:40 AM
Kidd shouldn't have been hired to a team with such high expectations to begin with. And EVERYBODY knows that.

I mean, Avery Johnson wins Coach of the Month, loses a few games, and they fire him? But Kidd starts off the season 10-19 and they keep him? WTF? Carlisimo did a better job.


The Nets, to be frank, would have been better off keeping Johnson than down grading.


Kidd should have gotten some experience as an assistant first, OR got picked up by an awful team that had zero expectations. Put him in charge of a team that ownership, and fans, thought was capable of a championship? Not a good idea.

king4day
12-28-2013, 10:15 AM
You don't fire a new coach in the first year before the all star break

Suns did it to Terry Porter a few years back so its possible

todu82
12-28-2013, 11:40 AM
No surprise really. I'm actually surprised that he was hired in the first place.

IAmARanger18
12-28-2013, 12:38 PM
Kidd was a ridiculous hire to begin with, but to blame him for KG/Pierce/Terry finally dropping off a cliff for being old, and his GM signing the often injured AK, and on top of that, the injuries we ALL EXPECTED (except Nets fans), how is this Kidd's fault?

This team was a paper strong team with age and injury history. Anyone who actually thought they would contend is delusional. Been saying it since last summer.

Pretty much this. The hiring of him was a bad move. The trade was good but thet have just completely sucked since being dealt there.

koreancabbage
12-28-2013, 12:44 PM
We all expected Brook to go down for the season? Nothing delusional about liking this teams chances if healthy and if KG/Pierce could have staved off regression for another year. They looked deep albeit flawed in the starting lineup.

Surely their performance has surprised even you

I certainly did. at least for a lot of portions of the season. Traded him plus another player away in my fantasy team for Ibaka two days before Lopez got injured.

I expected it. I also expect DW, KG, Pierce to not play during portions of the season as well. This was expected. anything else was pure optimism.

WES KOAST
12-28-2013, 01:44 PM
It was a weird hire to begin with. BK is gonna get the boot first though. Then Kidd

tell that to terry porter

Hawkeye15
12-28-2013, 05:24 PM
How do u predict injuries tho? Hawk?

I just don't see how Avery was the problem, then pj, now Kidd?

Lopez for the season I wouldn't have predicted, but he has been hurt before. Deron has shown injury concerns the last 4 years. And that isn't even bringing up their old roster. AK always gets hurt. KG/Pierce/Terry were due for a big decline out from under their Doc comfort zone offense/defense. Johnson is a meh SG. The team had a ton of names on it, but most of those names were either really old, or have fallen back into the injury bug.

Trust me, I didn't think they would be 26-56 bad, but I didn't think they would survive a round in the playoffs. Interesting thing is they can still get there.

Kidd was given an impossible task. And their window gets closed more and more every game. This team is capped out, old, and has limited draft picks.

c.c.
12-28-2013, 05:43 PM
Its the eastern conference, any team can make a turn around. They should at least give him the rest of the season

Hawkeye15
12-28-2013, 05:46 PM
Its the eastern conference, any team can make a turn around. They should at least give him the rest of the season

problem is, they had a fan base and owner who thought 60 wins and contending with Miami/Indy was happening. Patience is not a virtue amongst the NY teams in any sport.

Ryan328
12-28-2013, 05:50 PM
Lionel Hollins should have gotten this job

KniCks4LiFe
12-28-2013, 06:07 PM
Lionel Hollins should have gotten this job

a bit overrated as a coach. I mean you got Z-Bo who D'Antoni got the best out of, unfortunately we had to trade him to chase LeBron. Hollins landed in a situation that had 2 top bigs in Gasol and Z-Bo and a top 10 young playmaking PG in Mike Conley. Not much to have to do there. He got them to buy into defense.

You guys are missing the main problem w/ the Nets. The coach is who you thought he would be. He's improving but he's a 1st yr. coach. That's not the issue.

The issue here is

You lost your only top 10 efficient player on the roster in Brook Lopez.

Your PF in not young, is a shell of himself, is not a great playmaker and is shooting below league average

Your SF had a slow start, is turnover prone, has veteran savvy but his game is league average, suited for the bench

Your best playmaker is Andray Blatche. What's wrong w/ this picture? the main problem.

Deron Williams is not a star PG. He hasn't enhanced anyone's game. He's nowhere near the kid that was running pick n roll sets w/ Carlos Boozer. And it's weird b/c you'd think Blatche and Deron would be a perfect PnR duo but they aren't. The personel on the Nets is messed up. This is a team that is in dire need of a rebounding big to help Blatche stick to the PnR game instead of having to drive so much b/c the guys can't rebound. But also in dire need of a playmaking PG. The Nets have a perimeter PG. He's not for whatever reason playing near his capability. And peeps have been making too many excuses for him.

b@llhog24
12-28-2013, 09:04 PM
Kidd was a ridiculous hire to begin with, but to blame him for KG/Pierce/Terry finally dropping off a cliff for being old, and his GM signing the often injured AK, and on top of that, the injuries we ALL EXPECTED (except Nets fans), how is this Kidd's fault?

This team was a paper strong team with age and injury history. Anyone who actually thought they would contend is delusional. Been saying it since last summer.

Reminds me of a certain poster. Particularly the delusionist part.


"If"? They aren't going to turn it around, this team is simply awful. If anyone deserves to be fired, it's Billy King. I don't get it, does he have something on Prokorov? Witness tampering, fraud, insider trading- this guy must know SOMETHING and that's why he's still employed. How many bad decisions does the man have to make before he gets canned?

"In Soviet Russia, you can us" :p


Hit me.

:punish:

DamnGoat
12-28-2013, 09:11 PM
It was a bad hire in the first place. This was the kind of roster that needed an established HC that could get the absolute most out of 2 players in the twilight of their careers & 3 good, but not great players (Brook, DWill & JJ). Gambling on a Rookie HC with zero coaching experience never made much sense to me.

KniCks4LiFe
12-28-2013, 11:29 PM
It was a bad hire in the first place. This was the kind of roster that needed an established HC that could get the absolute most out of 2 players in the twilight of their careers & 3 good, but not great players (Brook, DWill & JJ). Gambling on a Rookie HC with zero coaching experience never made much sense to me.

It still doesn't change how these players aren't consistent enough to make a veteran coach do his job. Whether it was Kidd or Frank, this was set to be a disaster.

Brook was going to get hurt regardless, D-Will was going to underperform as a PG, Lawrence Frank is not a gifted offensive coach, so his plus is on the defense. Where D-Will is limited laterally, KG is slower, PP is average, it's to the point they are putting Shawn Livingston next to D-Will, a move I haven't seen since Sprewell and Houston [when Spree would do all the defensive works in the backcourt b/c of his wingspan]

This is just not a well put roster. Billy King is getting away w/ murder in Brooklyn. And he's rejecting trades that benefit their cap and future flexibility. The guy must be stopped. It's one thing when my Knicks has an owner who interferes and messes things up. But the Nets right now have an owner who invested 200+ million on a roster HIS GM put together! This GM who has been inept. Let a Gerald Green get away, traded away 3 picks for players who are PT to minimal regulars, rejected trades that would actually benefit the future of his ROSTER! GMs like these don't DESERVE A JOB IN THE NBA!

The only way this roster can win consistently is to be a slow tempo per possession offense, and the only way that is possible is you have to make shots and defensively be quick enough to cover breakdowns [PnR, backdoors, defensive rebounds, transistion D]. They aren't that, this roster is at best a 28 win roster.

dee279
12-29-2013, 12:15 AM
From Injuries to just not respecting the coach, it was all bound to fail from the start. The injury prone players on the team and then being coached by a person who played against Pierce, KG, Deron, Terry, Joe Johnson, and every other player on that team their whole careers. What did Kidd do as a coaxh to earn the respect of 2 future hall of famers in KG and PP, who literally played with Kidd almost his whole career. He did alot as a player yes, but nothing to earn him the respect as a coach. I know if i played against someone my whole career and end up getting coached by the same guy, i would be pissed and wonder how the hell he got a job coaching me when i just played against the man last year. I really do think that played a big part in the **** they got going on in Brooklyn.

WadeKobe
12-29-2013, 01:37 AM
What star players? Seriously.

When will people stop acting like age doesn't exist?

This team was never strong on paper and the offseason moves made them worse, not better, on paper from the year before.

Sactown
12-29-2013, 02:23 AM
We all expected Brook to go down for the season? Nothing delusional about liking this teams chances if healthy and if KG/Pierce could have staved off regression for another year. They looked deep albeit flawed in the starting lineup.

Surely their performance has surprised even you

It's not a huge jump to assume Brook Lopez ( who has missed many games to injury) could potentially miss time.. nobody could of guessed he'd miss this much time, but when you take these pieces and put them together the chances of this team staying healthy and competitive is definitely under 50%...

D-Will missed games in what? Last 4 consecutive seasons

Brook Lopez missed games with multiple injuries

KG missed times with injuries plus his age

Pierce age obviously would slow down

Livingston.. Injuries have derailed his career

AK47... Unable to stay healthy

Jet and JJ. Aging as well

New Coach and new teammates

The chances of this team being able to all stay healthy long enough to learn an entire new offense under a rookie head coach and gain chemistry and able to be healthy in the playoffs was slim to none to begin with... More things had to go right for this team than wrong for them to be a contender

JLynn943
12-29-2013, 02:32 AM
If he gets fired, I hope someone gets him as an assistant coach. He needed coaching experience behind someone before being a head coach imo, so hopefully he gets it if he's fired. He obviously knows the game very well, but to assume he could coach right out of the gate was just crazy.

KniCks4LiFe
12-29-2013, 02:34 AM
It's not a huge jump to assume Brook Lopez ( who has missed many games to injury) could potentially miss time.. nobody could of guessed he'd miss this much time, but when you take these pieces and put them together the chances of this team staying healthy and competitive is definitely under 50%...

D-Will missed games in what? Last 4 consecutive seasons

Brook Lopez missed games with multiple injuries

KG missed times with injuries plus his age

Pierce age obviously would slow down

Livingston.. Injuries have derailed his career

AK47... Unable to stay healthy

Jet and JJ. Aging as well

New Coach and new teammates

The chances of this team being able to all stay healthy long enough to learn an entire new offense under a rookie head coach and gain chemistry and able to be healthy in the playoffs was slim to none to begin with... More things had to go right for this team than wrong for them to be a contender

And yet that inept buffoon GM has a job.

dodgersuck
12-29-2013, 11:54 AM
The Nets just arent deep enough right now and the Lopez injury exposed that. Outside of deron their roster consists of washed up stars and scrubs

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 11:58 AM
Yea both Billy King and Kidd need to go ASAP if things dont get turned around soon. This road trip coming up is going to be huge for their fate. Really no excuse for how bad this team has been not even age/injury considering how awful the division and conference is.

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 12:03 PM
Kidd was given an impossible task. And their window gets closed more and more every game. This team is capped out, old, and has limited draft picks.

Trust me even the Nets biggest doubters wouldn't have predicted them to be anything worse than a .500 team at worse. Kidd has failed the Nets miserably. Lionel Hollins was the guy this team needed. I can understand age and injuries but the team is not playing hard at all and hasn't played hard since the Miami game. That is on Jason Kidd. Kidd's biggest expectation was to revitalize DWILL into the player he was over the 2nd half of last season for the entire year. None of DWILL's injuries are significant enough to really explain his level of play this year. Nets need to dump Kidd/DWILL/King and start fresh.

torocan
12-29-2013, 12:13 PM
I don't think Kidd is the issue there. I think very few coaches make a major plus or minus to a teams record. Most are average, maybe 10-15% great, and 10-15% awful. Just depends on who they have on that roster.

I don't think coaching makes that team healthy or recaptures youth from the old players on it. You chose Kidd, you tried a last hurrah run, now give him the rebuild. Let him learn and grow with the team. Not even Phil Jackson is coming in and turning this into a .500 team with who they have right now.

This.

While putting Kidd in charge of a veteran team was an error, with the number of injuries that the Nets have suffered combined with the incredible under performance of most of the players in terms of shooting, Gregg Popovich and Phil Jackson couldn't have done much better.

Coaching comes into play the most during the play offs and at the top end of the pool when competition is close. The Nets weren't even in it to start once Deron went down and KG/Pierce couldn't hit a shot. Toss in Lopez being out and the Nets weren't going anywhere.

Even with a veteran coach you'd be looking at the ASG before the team would gel in any meaningful way. And that's assuming you had a healthy squad which the Nets haven't had all season.

Was Kidd the best choice for a head coach? Not by any stretch. I still think Kidd will make a good head coach, but he should have been put in charge of a young and rebuilding team, not one chock full of veterans looking to "win now".

However, now that it's done I don't think firing Kidd accomplishes anything. The Nets aren't going anywhere. And even if by some miracle they make the play offs, they aren't getting past the 2nd round.

Proky should just eat the bullet, blow it up, and let Kidd grow as a coach. Changing a coach mid stream won't accomplish anything with this roster. And it's quite possible that this roster is done in terms of health and age.

If you're going to rebuild anyway, Kidd isn't much worse than any coach you'd most likely put in charge of a young and rebuilding team.

No, the one that has to go is Billy King. Too top heavy a roster, with the weight on too many players on the decline and injury prone. It was a house of cards waiting to happen.

If the Nets had been a bit more patient and built with a 2-3 year plan versus a win this year plan, we'd most likely be seeing a somewhat more competitive Nets team at least for the next few years. As it stands now, they're way over the cap and burned their picks to 2020.

Winter is coming Nets fans. Winter is coming...

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 12:28 PM
This.

While putting Kidd in charge of a veteran team was an error, with the number of injuries that the Nets have suffered combined with the incredible under performance of most of the players in terms of shooting, Gregg Popovich and Phil Jackson couldn't have done much better.

Coaching comes into play the most during the play offs and at the top end of the pool when competition is close. The Nets weren't even in it to start once Deron went down and KG/Pierce couldn't hit a shot. Toss in Lopez being out and the Nets weren't going anywhere.

Even with a veteran coach you'd be looking at the ASG before the team would gel in any meaningful way. And that's assuming you had a healthy squad which the Nets haven't had all season.

Was Kidd the best choice for a head coach? Not by any stretch. I still think Kidd will make a good head coach, but he should have been put in charge of a young and rebuilding team, not one chock full of veterans looking to "win now".

However, now that it's done I don't think firing Kidd accomplishes anything. The Nets aren't going anywhere. And even if by some miracle they make the play offs, they aren't getting past the 2nd round.

Proky should just eat the bullet, blow it up, and let Kidd grow as a coach. Changing a coach mid stream won't accomplish anything with this roster. And it's quite possible that this roster is done in terms of health and age.

If you're going to rebuild anyway, Kidd isn't much worse than any coach you'd most likely put in charge of a young and rebuilding team.

No, the one that has to go is Billy King. Too top heavy a roster, with the weight on too many players on the decline and injury prone. It was a house of cards waiting to happen.

If the Nets had been a bit more patient and built with a 2-3 year plan versus a win this year plan, we'd most likely be seeing a somewhat more competitive Nets team at least for the next few years. As it stands now, they're way over the cap and burned their picks to 2020.

Winter is coming Nets fans. Winter is coming...

Saying coaches don't matter is absolutely ridiculous. We've seen Greg Pop and Coach Thibs work miracles with teams that some coaches wouldn't be able to make it to the playoffs with. Look at the drop off of the Lakers from Phil Jackson to Mike Brown in 1 season. In some sports like NHL or MLB coaches dont make a difference at all but in the NBA they certainly do. Look at the drop off from Nuggets and Grizzles who turned from 2 great vet head coaches to 2 rookie coaches. Both went from Elite to below .500

torocan
12-29-2013, 12:41 PM
Saying coaches don't matter is absolutely ridiculous. We've seen Greg Pop and Coach Thibs work miracles with teams that some coaches wouldn't be able to make it to the playoffs with. Look at the drop off of the Lakers from Phil Jackson to Mike Brown in 1 season. In some sports like NHL or MLB coaches dont make a difference at all but in the NBA they certainly do. Look at the drop off from Nuggets and Grizzles who turned from 2 great vet head coaches to 2 rookie coaches. Both went from Elite to below .500

Only a very small portion of coaches matter. There's been plenty of studies on it across multiple sports... the vast, vast majority of coaches make very little difference. Only a small handful are actual "impact" coaches.

You have to remember, virtually all Head Coaches are basketball lifers. They eat, breathe and sleep the game. They all learn the same basic stuff, the same offensive and defensive schemes. There's a zillion ways to run a pick and roll and they've seen all of them because they study every game and play every other team. Barring a handful of innovative "geniuses", the most range from average to slightly above/below.

I refer you to this article...

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2008/11/change_you_cant_believe_in.html

Here's the actual paper should you care to read it...

http://www.suu.edu/faculty/berri/IJSF4-2CoachingPaper.pdf

Coaches like Popovich are the elite of the elite. So unless you got one of those coming, then odds are it won't.

And a truly elite coach isn't interested in coaching a rebuilding team. You think Popovich or Doc Rivers is interested in a rebuild? No, they want teams that are mature and ready to contend. It's a waste of their time to mentor a team full of rookies.

If you're going to rebuild, Kidd won't be much better or worse than any other coach you're likely to get. Especially since he'll be hiring assistant coaches to do significant parts of the heavy lifting.

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 12:49 PM
Only a very small portion of coaches matter. There's been plenty of studies on it across multiple sports... the vast, vast majority of coaches make very little difference. Only a small handful are actual "impact" coaches.

You have to remember, virtually all Head Coaches are basketball lifers. They eat, breathe and sleep the game. They all learn the same basic stuff, the same offensive and defensive schemes. There's a zillion ways to run a pick and roll and they've seen all of them because they study every game and play every other team. Barring a handful of innovative "geniuses", the most range from average to slightly above/below.

I refer you to this article...

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2008/11/change_you_cant_believe_in.html

Here's the actual paper should you care to read it...

http://www.suu.edu/faculty/berri/IJSF4-2CoachingPaper.pdf

Coaches like Popovich are the elite of the elite. So unless you got one of those coming, then odds are it won't.

And a truly elite coach isn't interested in coaching a rebuilding team. You think Popovich or Doc Rivers is interested in a rebuild? No, they want teams that are mature and ready to contend. It's a waste of their time to mentor a team full of rookies.

If you're going to rebuild, Kidd won't be much better or worse than any other coach you're likely to get. Especially since he'll be hiring assistant coaches to do significant parts of the heavy lifting.

I think what Brad Stevens and Rick Carlisle have been able to do with teams that I consider as having less talent than the Nets is a testament to coaching being a very big factor. Yes Kidd may just have the potential to be a great head coach someday but he has a long way to go in terms of mentoring his players and getting his team to play hard. With the amount of money invested into the Nets dont expect a typical "rebuild" anytime soon they will much more likely try to reload like the Mavs/Lakers have done that doesn't give Kidd much of a chance to learn on the fly here. The Nets are a team that cannot use age as an excuse when they are basically not even showing up most nights.

KniCks4LiFe
12-29-2013, 02:07 PM
I think what Brad Stevens and Rick Carlisle have been able to do with teams that I consider as having less talent than the Nets is a testament to coaching being a very big factor. Yes Kidd may just have the potential to be a great head coach someday but he has a long way to go in terms of mentoring his players and getting his team to play hard. With the amount of money invested into the Nets dont expect a typical "rebuild" anytime soon they will much more likely try to reload like the Mavs/Lakers have done that doesn't give Kidd much of a chance to learn on the fly here. The Nets are a team that cannot use age as an excuse when they are basically not even showing up most nights.

But they knew this, they knew this, there is no way they could have thought 1st yr. coach champion, the perception was this b/c of what was on paper and everyone bought into too much talent to fail. But that's not the problem.

The Nets are a team that have no legit back up plan. The Spurs and Pops plan wouldn't have worked w/ no Hill, Parker, Splitter, the Nets don't got that young guy. They don't have a commander that pushes the tempo or stretches the floor. And Deron Williams I'm sorry, he's playing like a dog.

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 02:13 PM
But they knew this, they knew this, there is no way they could have thought 1st yr. coach champion, the perception was this b/c of what was on paper and everyone bought into too much talent to fail. But that's not the problem.

The Nets are a team that have no legit back up plan. The Spurs and Pops plan wouldn't have worked w/ no Hill, Parker, Splitter, the Nets don't got that young guy. They don't have a commander that pushes the tempo or stretches the floor. And Deron Williams I'm sorry, he's playing like a dog.
Well the main reason why Kidd was hired was DWILL. He pushed for the hire and Kidd sold King on his relationship with Deron as a tool to get DWILL rejuvenated basically it was all BS cause DWILL is dogging it out there and only plays hard when he feels like it or CP3 is out there against him. I'm not really sure what the backup plan is but the first thing we need is to get the team actually playing hard out there. I think the backup plan will be purging the current FO and hiring guys who know what they are doing.

KniCks4LiFe
12-29-2013, 02:18 PM
Well the main reason why Kidd was hired was DWILL. He pushed for the hire and Kidd sold King on his relationship with Deron as a tool to get DWILL rejuvenated basically it was all BS cause DWILL is dogging it out there and only plays hard when he feels like it or CP3 is out there against him. I'm not really sure what the backup plan is but the first thing we need is to get the team actually playing hard out there. I think the backup plan will be purging the current FO and hiring guys who know what they are doing.

Exactly! and now you see it is D-Will. Jason Kidd can't get through to him, you as a PG, a PG! you don't want to take lessons or pointers from one of the best to EVER do it? You're the problem. It's you! And all Billy King does is sit on his *** and reject deals that actually benefits their future b/c he knows if D-Will has to go, that's his last straw.

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 02:24 PM
Exactly! and now you see it is D-Will. Jason Kidd can't get through to him, you as a PG, a PG! you don't want to take lessons or pointers from one of the best to EVER do it? You're the problem. It's you! And all Billy King does is sit on his *** and reject deals that actually benefits their future b/c he knows if D-Will has to go, that's his last straw.
Well King's only hope now is that D-WILL turns it on like he did last year and that the reason he has been playing like crap is the injuries but I think most be people with working sets of eyes realize DWILL just isn't motivated and I think all Nets fans realize DWILL NEEDS a coach like Jerry Sloan who will kick his *** up and down to get him going. We have hired nothing but coaches who want to be DWILL's best friends and be chummy chummy. PJC was a crap head coach but he got DWILL going because went hard on him. If Lionel Hollins was hired this team would be playing much better.

KniCks4LiFe
12-29-2013, 02:26 PM
There's a lot of stupid on the Nets. Stupid thinking, stupid timing. But the main stupid culprit is

A) The GM

B) Deron Williams

That's the core of all this. Cuz D-Will let me tell you something. Devin Harris had more impact on a nightly basis than him.

I still go back to this. The GM knowing this team is not going to turn it around, knowing the team has issues internally w/ Deron's attitude. He rejected a Lin + Asik deal for him. Hung up the phone, like it was an insult. The insult is Deron William's game and attitude since being traded from Utah. The insult is the GM that has his job and goes UNTALKED or TOUCHED by NY MEDIA as if he isn't doing a BAD JOB!

Excuse the caps. But w/ Billy King I can't believe the **** he's gotten away with. Honestly he ain't even better than Isiah Thomas.

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 02:37 PM
There's a lot of stupid on the Nets. Stupid thinking, stupid timing. But the main stupid culprit is

A) The GM

B) Deron Williams

That's the core of all this. Cuz D-Will let me tell you something. Devin Harris had more impact on a nightly basis than him.

I still go back to this. The GM knowing this team is not going to turn it around, knowing the team has issues internally w/ Deron's attitude. He rejected a Lin + Asik deal for him. Hung up the phone, like it was an insult. The insult is Deron William's game and attitude since being traded from Utah. The insult is the GM that has his job and goes UNTALKED or TOUCHED by NY MEDIA as if he isn't doing a BAD JOB!

Excuse the caps. But w/ Billy King I can't believe the **** he's gotten away with. Honestly he ain't even better than Isiah Thomas.
Well the difference between Isiah Thomas and Billy King is that King has a great relationship with the media, he is a great salesman and King is professional where as Isiah's personal issues came into play. Isiah Thomas would have been given more time to turn things around had off the court stuff not made it a circus. King's only chance is to get a coach in here who will put there foot on DWILL's throat.

KniCks4LiFe
12-29-2013, 03:01 PM
Well the difference between Isiah Thomas and Billy King is that King has a great relationship with the media, he is a great salesman and King is professional where as Isiah's personal issues came into play. Isiah Thomas would have been given more time to turn things around had off the court stuff not made it a circus. King's only chance is to get a coach in here who will put there foot on DWILL's throat.

I honestly think the only person that gets through to him is D'Antoni. Sloan and him, it was proven not to work.

Isiah, and we hated him here in NY. With good reason. But atleast the man left us with

Nate Robinson
Wilson Chandler
David Lee
Zach Randolph
Jamal Crawford

Unfortunately his ego got him over the time. But I look at him and what he got the Knicks. Even though there was more bad seeds like Marbury, and trading the picks for Crawford and Curry that turned out to be LMA. Not drafting Rondo and bypassing a 17 or 18 yr. old Andrew Bynum for Channing Frye. The Malik Rose deal. The god awful Steve Francis deal which he got for Larry Brown. Even w/ that. He drafted well athletic hybrids and put some young future on the team. Billy King doesn't do that. Billy King has drained most of his resources and The Brooklyn Nets let him run the team into the ground knowing this.

Rod Thorn is still at times in contact w/ the Nets FO and anything in major cities. I can't believe no one has advised the Nets to fire this man.

mjt20mik
12-29-2013, 03:48 PM
Don't know why they would hire him in the first place. That whole Net team is a joke (this coming from a guy that spend half of his life in brooklyn).

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-29-2013, 05:18 PM
Don't know why they would hire him in the first place. That whole Net team is a joke (this coming from a guy that spend half of his life in brooklyn).

it is, they have no control over their picks till 2019...that is 6 years!!!!!!

Hawkeye15
12-29-2013, 06:20 PM
Trust me even the Nets biggest doubters wouldn't have predicted them to be anything worse than a .500 team at worse. Kidd has failed the Nets miserably. Lionel Hollins was the guy this team needed. I can understand age and injuries but the team is not playing hard at all and hasn't played hard since the Miami game. That is on Jason Kidd. Kidd's biggest expectation was to revitalize DWILL into the player he was over the 2nd half of last season for the entire year. None of DWILL's injuries are significant enough to really explain his level of play this year. Nets need to dump Kidd/DWILL/King and start fresh.

I was a doubter, but as I stated on page 1, I figured 45 wins and a 1st round knockout. They are old, injury prone, and had a rookie HC months removed from having a players perspective.

Recipe for disaster.

thekmp211
12-29-2013, 10:05 PM
Kidd is far from the only problem, but he should be a stabilizing factor. instead it seems his presence only adds to the disaster. i say can him.

KniCks4LiFe
12-29-2013, 10:52 PM
Kidd is far from the only problem, but he should be a stabilizing factor. instead it seems his presence only adds to the disaster. i say can him.

who's gonna get 25+ pts. a night for that team. Name the player. Name him. And who's locking his man to 12?

See now I think peeps hate on Kidd cuz it's easy and y'all want to see former players fails. Byron Scott, remember how PSD was going gaga for that guy, what's Denver doing now? [6 gm. losing streak, 14-15]

Is it hard for fans to understand coaching is a process, talent and youth and time in this game matters. Jason is the obvious experienced man to get a coaching job, he's played more playoffs than anyone on a coach watch list. After the former players, on the ranking goes the assistant coaches, which contain mostly peeps that don't play the game, are in the film room or just have a clipboard at times for 6-8 yrs. No disrespect to those guys, but only Van Gundy, Spola, Frank Vogel and Brad Stevens have made an impact that way.

KniCks4LiFe
12-29-2013, 11:08 PM
When peeps understand the main issue on the Brooklyn Nets are Billy King and Deron Williams who are both underperforming in their tenure in Brooklyn. Show me a coach, I'll show you a better a better GM.

NBA_Starter
12-29-2013, 11:57 PM
This experiment should have already been over.

KniCks4LiFe
12-30-2013, 12:15 AM
This experiment should have already been over.

which the coach? or the GM? or the D-Will?

I'll say this again who was going to make that roster rank in the top 30 efficiency? who?

KniCks4LiFe
12-30-2013, 12:33 AM
Maybe I need to show it more. On this list I circled the Nets most efficient players ranking on the top 50 qualified players in the Eastern Conference. How is this Jason Kidd's fault?

http://i41.tinypic.com/28iwxh2.png

Only Blatche is the other Net ranking in the top 20 in the East. Not the NBA, the Eastern Conference.

Wade n Fade
12-30-2013, 01:51 PM
Nets logic: Let's let go of Carlisimo and replace him with an inexperienced coach who has never even coached in life and never paid his dues. He was an all-star PG and HoF pg for us, but that's the only reason we want to bring him in. Not everyone is cut out for coaching. I don't see Stockton coaching in the NCAA or NBA. I knew the hiring was bad and a complete joke at the time. If I am Paul Pierce, why trust a guy who I played against on the court a lot last season?

KniCks4LiFe
12-30-2013, 03:28 PM
Nets logic: Let's let go of Carlisimo and replace him with an inexperienced coach who has never even coached in life and never paid his dues.

Mark Jackson paid any real dues? Doc Rivers paid any dues? Scott Skiles paid any dues? Carlisimo was drowned out. He knew it and the Nets knew it. When you let a Chicago Bulls team, depleted team, KO you in Gm.7 in your home, in NY? you can't come back assume the same voice and spot, this is NY.


He was an all-star PG and HoF pg for us, but that's the only reason we want to bring him in.

this is so ignorant. Like I don't understand the hate here. Jason Kidd is what you, them, I and everyone else thought, a great mind, and developing into a coach. They knew this. Everyone knew this. That's not the problem.


Not everyone is cut out for coaching. I don't see Stockton coaching in the NCAA or NBA.

We all know this. But what's your point? No but Jeff Hornacek is. :rolleyes:


I knew the hiring was bad and a complete joke at the time.

Really? did you know that the Boston 3 wouldn't even rank in the top 50 in the Eastern Conference in efficiency? Did you know that? Why does everyone CHOOSE to IGNORE the fact that Brooke Lopez was the only thing in the top 10 efficiency for the Nets? Why do you choose to ignore that? Jason Kidd is not going to make Paul Pierce more than average as a scorer this year, Phil Jackson wouldn't either, Jason Kidd is not going to turn KG into "The Big Ticket" neither would Byron Scott or Shaw. Jason Kidd is not going to turn Deron Williams into a top 5 PG again, and while we're at it PJ Carlisimo sure as hell wouldn't either. So here you are making non sense up, instead of looking where the problem really is. The fact you don't know the only reason Alan Anderson is there is b/c of Kidd, the only reason Shawn Livingston is there is b/c of Jason Kidd, the only reason Mirza is looking like an NBA player is b/c of Jason Kidd.

Jason Kidd didn't make Billy King draft Tayshawn Taylor, he didn't make him take a stiff in Toko Songhalia while they released Gerald Green and let Terrance Williams rot in the D-League. This isn't Jason's doing. This is THE GM!


If I am Paul Pierce, why trust a guy who I played against on the court a lot last season?

stop saying stupid things.

LOOTERX9
12-30-2013, 03:42 PM
Kidd should get the entire season. The nets are old and deron is a soft player. Nets need to trade old guys along with deron and give kidd a chance to coach young and athletic players. Getting rid of kidd is useless

KniCks4LiFe
12-30-2013, 03:53 PM
Lets look at it deeper than that

The Nets had 2 games robbed from them. In Philly and in Detroit. [No Lopez or no JJ]

Then lets put the main loses here

Brooklyn is 3-2 in this division. They should be 4-2, but still they are 6-13 in the Leastern Conference. With the majority of those losses in the central and southeast. Well look at the teams in those divisions

Indiana/Detroit/Chicago/Cleveland all have an edge athletically against the Nets.

Miami/Atlanta/Washington/Charlotte/Orlando all have an edge in the backcourt, and 3 out of 4 of those teams have the front court edge. All of these teams also can score and defend better than the Nets backcourt.

Again this is already the disadvantage that the Nets coach no matter who it is has.

If they want to fire him to shock some peeps go ahead. That ain't gonna turn PP into more than a PT role player. That's not going to turn KG into "The Big Ticket" and we still don't know why Deron Williams has managed to disappear and only feels like playing vs CP3.

WadeKobe
12-30-2013, 04:26 PM
Saying coaches don't matter is absolutely ridiculous. We've seen Greg Pop and Coach Thibs work miracles with teams that some coaches wouldn't be able to make it to the playoffs with. Look at the drop off of the Lakers from Phil Jackson to Mike Brown in 1 season. In some sports like NHL or MLB coaches dont make a difference at all but in the NBA they certainly do. Look at the drop off from Nuggets and Grizzles who turned from 2 great vet head coaches to 2 rookie coaches. Both went from Elite to below .500

Coaches like Pop, Phil, and Thibs are outliers to the data. And even they only contribute a few more wins to their team each year.

All I the peer-reviewed research I have read in sports economics suggests that, empirically, most coaches have very little impact on player productivity. Their biggest value comes in rotations and minute allocation.

For the most part, coaches really don't matter much, unless you're lucky enough to have the very rare great one.