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View Full Version : Will hand checking ever be a part of the game again ?



savvy1803
12-27-2013, 04:47 PM
It seems like today's elite defenders are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to guarding today's highly skilled players , is there a balance to be found among the current rules and officials or will the ticky tack call be forever a part of the game going forward .

Is it the current rules or the current crop of officials leading to this parade to the charity stripe , should the NBA bring back hand checking or in some way level the playing field for defenders or do you feel it's just fine as it is ?

Discuss .

kobe4thewinbang
12-27-2013, 07:13 PM
I just think the referees need to stop calling so many fouls. Then players will quit flopping so much and trying to initiate contact because they predict the referees to call "ticky-tack" fouls. The hand checking should come back because how else are you going to stop LeBron from bulldozing his way to the rim. The foul calls need to become more consistent and more physical.

Chronz
12-27-2013, 07:24 PM
Eliminating Handchecking was how they found the balance. Im not buying the notion that there is a parade to the foul line, and before anyone mentions it, todays defenses are more intricate and todays defenders are more athletic. The only way they get rid of handchecking today is if they once again make zone defenses illegal.

But the NBA would never do that because it would bring back stale isolation offenses that cleared the lane for a singular dominant player with 4 bystanders. Everyone tried to be like Mike but nobody cared to watch how Mike played off the ball, they just want to reenact the iso theatrics.

torocan
12-27-2013, 07:27 PM
While there was an appeal to those days, I just don't see it happening.

Athletic players and highlight plays sells tickets, and we know what the NBA really cares about... it's all about the $$$.

ghettosean
12-27-2013, 08:05 PM
Great thread but sadly i think the answer is no... When hand checking was eliminated you could slowly see the flops rising in the NBA. All the NBA cares about is money not the game. Put it this way when Jordan left basketball they needed another GOAT to insert after him so lets change the rules increase scoring and lets all sit around a camp fire and talk about how Lebron is going to pass Larry Bird on the all time scoring list. The worst thing is people are already comparing him to MJ.

Different players in different eras... everyone today is comparing apples to oranges.

Someone show me a Hakeem, Ewing, Drexler, Bird or MJ flop.

Now lets compare that to today someone show me a Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Pierce, CP3 flop... etc

Like I was saying apples and oranges between the different eras and the elites of those times.

savvy1803
12-27-2013, 08:25 PM
Great points everybody , often times i feel the elite defender is somewhat being minimized in the regular season , it seems like he will flourish more come playoff time when whistles are harder to get and he can apply more of that physical ability without worrying as much about the quick whistle .

I would love to see a little more of a balance between regular and post season , it seems basketball in general improves so much during the playoffs .

Supreme LA
12-27-2013, 09:09 PM
I think it's safe to say that hand-checking, mid-range shooting, and low-post play will all be gone from the game in the not so distant future.

SMH!
12-27-2013, 09:33 PM
I think it's safe to say that hand-checking, mid-range shooting, and low-post play will all be gone from the game in the not so distant future.

mid range and low post will always be there lol

Chronz
12-27-2013, 09:45 PM
Great thread but sadly i think the answer is no... When hand checking was eliminated you could slowly see the flops rising in the NBA. All the NBA cares about is money not the game. Put it this way when Jordan left basketball they needed another GOAT to insert after him so lets change the rules increase scoring and lets all sit around a camp fire and talk about how Lebron is going to pass Larry Bird on the all time scoring list. The worst thing is people are already comparing him to MJ.

Different players in different eras... everyone today is comparing apples to oranges.

Someone show me a Hakeem, Ewing, Drexler, Bird or MJ flop.

Now lets compare that to today someone show me a Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Pierce, CP3 flop... etc

Like I was saying apples and oranges between the different eras and the elites of those times.
Ignoring the advances defenses have made since MJ's era would be foolish. Its not apples to oranges at all, if anything todays league makes it harder for the individual scorer. Its a negligible difference. Stop acting like flopping consists in any way of the majority of the game. Flopping had been rising long before the rule changes, they had nothing to do with each other.

Chronz
12-27-2013, 09:46 PM
I think it's safe to say that hand-checking, mid-range shooting, and low-post play will all be gone from the game in the not so distant future.

Seems like it but at least we get more team oriented play.

Supreme LA
12-27-2013, 10:04 PM
mid range and low post will always be there lol

Really? Where have you been the last decade? It seems the only big men with any skill in the post will be leaving the game in a few years. I guess it's just me who has seen a total transition to the European style of game where big men just pick & pop over the last 5 years.

The mid-range game has been gone for a long time outside of a handful of players in the league who can actually do it consistently. I think it's common knowledge that the NBA game is all about the 3-ball nowadays. I don't know where you've been. I'm not saying this is a bad thing.

I will miss the post-play because I just think it's one of the best skills in basketball and the most difficult to master. It's kind of a shame that future generations aren't being taught how to play in the post going through AAU. It's a lost art really.

Supreme LA
12-27-2013, 10:05 PM
Seems like it but at least we get more team oriented play.

True. I'm not saying one style of game is better than the other, although post-play is one of the most beautiful things about the game. I wouldn't mind some variation in the game where it isn't all running up & down the court playing pick and roll.

I've just always appreciated using the half-court game to control pace and playing inside-out. It's one reason why I hate the fact that I'll probably never see the triangle offense again aside from small variations of it. Sucks because it really was one of the most successful systems in the games history.

ghettosean
12-27-2013, 11:06 PM
Great thread but sadly i think the answer is no... When hand checking was eliminated you could slowly see the flops rising in the NBA. All the NBA cares about is money not the game. Put it this way when Jordan left basketball they needed another GOAT to insert after him so lets change the rules increase scoring and lets all sit around a camp fire and talk about how Lebron is going to pass Larry Bird on the all time scoring list. The worst thing is people are already comparing him to MJ.

Different players in different eras... everyone today is comparing apples to oranges.

Someone show me a Hakeem, Ewing, Drexler, Bird or MJ flop.

Now lets compare that to today someone show me a Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Pierce, CP3 flop... etc

Like I was saying apples and oranges between the different eras and the elites of those times.
Ignoring the advances defenses have made since MJ's era would be foolish. Its not apples to oranges at all, if anything todays league makes it harder for the individual scorer. Its a negligible difference. Stop acting like flopping consists in any way of the majority of the game. Flopping had been rising long before the rule changes, they had nothing to do with each other.

Chronz I'm not saying defenses haven't changed or even improved since the rules have been changed between different eras of basketball but flailing your arms 20 years ago wouldn't buy you as much as it does today in fact i would lay bets other players around the league back then call you soft or a straight up ***** for not even playing but instead ACTING like that to get an easy 2 points. To me it's not even basketball its acting and acting and it takes away from the game.

Also like i said it is apples to oranges because if you compare todays nba elite players to previous eras.... Well you are a smart guy you can see the difference in the clear point i brought up regarding flopping. As for the thread topic on hand checking i don't see how giving defenses more power to defend --> makes it harder for the offensive player to score like you mentioned can you explain in more detail? When i think about it logically if you take power away from the defender it would make it easier for the offensive player and offensive players would exploit that. All I'm saying is with any major rule change theres a different generation of basketball and people play according to those new rules but comparing decades of basketball with hand checking to the latest era where its illegal is apples to oranges in comparison.

IKnowHoops
12-28-2013, 12:11 AM
Chronz I'm not saying defenses haven't changed or even improved since the rules have been changed between different eras of basketball but flailing your arms 20 years ago wouldn't buy you as much as it does today in fact i would lay bets other players around the league back then call you soft or a straight up ***** for not even playing but instead ACTING like that to get an easy 2 points. To me it's not even basketball its acting and acting and it takes away from the game.

Also like i said it is apples to oranges because if you compare todays nba elite players to previous eras.... Well you are a smart guy you can see the difference in the clear point i brought up regarding flopping. As for the thread topic on hand checking i don't see how giving defenses more power to defend --> makes it harder for the offensive player to score like you mentioned can you explain in more detail? When i think about it logically if you take power away from the defender it would make it easier for the offensive player and offensive players would exploit that. All I'm saying is with any major rule change theres a different generation of basketball and people play according to those new rules but comparing decades of basketball with hand checking to the latest era where its illegal is apples to oranges in comparison.

Zone defense has hurt scoring more than hand checking did. The thing is offensive players could get away with pushing off more with there off hand as well. So they almost cancel each other out. In the meantime you can now run a zone which clogs the middle a lot. It was easier to get to the hoop pre-zone. And scoring is lower than it was then overall anyway so there is no evidence that it is easier to score now, and there is evidence of the contrary.

TheMightyHumph
12-28-2013, 12:15 AM
No, but coat and hat checking will see a comeback.

ghettosean
12-28-2013, 01:01 AM
Chronz I'm not saying defenses haven't changed or even improved since the rules have been changed between different eras of basketball but flailing your arms 20 years ago wouldn't buy you as much as it does today in fact i would lay bets other players around the league back then call you soft or a straight up ***** for not even playing but instead ACTING like that to get an easy 2 points. To me it's not even basketball its acting and acting and it takes away from the game.

Also like i said it is apples to oranges because if you compare todays nba elite players to previous eras.... Well you are a smart guy you can see the difference in the clear point i brought up regarding flopping. As for the thread topic on hand checking i don't see how giving defenses more power to defend --> makes it harder for the offensive player to score like you mentioned can you explain in more detail? When i think about it logically if you take power away from the defender it would make it easier for the offensive player and offensive players would exploit that. All I'm saying is with any major rule change theres a different generation of basketball and people play according to those new rules but comparing decades of basketball with hand checking to the latest era where its illegal is apples to oranges in comparison.

Zone defense has hurt scoring more than hand checking did. The thing is offensive players could get away with pushing off more with there off hand as well. So they almost cancel each other out. In the meantime you can now run a zone which clogs the middle a lot. It was easier to get to the hoop pre-zone. And scoring is lower than it was then overall anyway so there is no evidence that it is easier to score now, and there is evidence of the contrary. I agree that zone defense is great against certain team offenses it's why I didn't deny that defensive schemes but when I'm saying apples and oranges look at how physical the game was back then... you are right when saying even the offensive player can push off and make a run for the basket (and it's not even an easy 2 after that he can still be contested). Now there is a bunch of arm flailing the play stops to get an easy 2 points and you hear announcers say well you got to sell it (like acting, faking or pretending is part of basketball). Those words were never spoken before this soft league but if anyone has an old clip of NBA ON NBC before the rule change of Marv Albert talking about selling acting lessons I'd love to hear/see it.

The game needs to be physical again not a sissy fight.

SMH!
12-28-2013, 03:28 AM
Really? Where have you been the last decade? It seems the only big men with any skill in the post will be leaving the game in a few years. I guess it's just me who has seen a total transition to the European style of game where big men just pick & pop over the last 5 years.

The mid-range game has been gone for a long time outside of a handful of players in the league who can actually do it consistently. I think it's common knowledge that the NBA game is all about the 3-ball nowadays. I don't know where you've been. I'm not saying this is a bad thing.

I will miss the post-play because I just think it's one of the best skills in basketball and the most difficult to master. It's kind of a shame that future generations aren't being taught how to play in the post going through AAU. It's a lost art really.

Stop asking where I've been, relax lol. I guess I took your post literally when you said there would be no mid range/ post. But I see what you mean, I see it declining heavily as well until some coach/player comes along and shows us that its still here and strong.

savvy1803
12-28-2013, 05:36 AM
Chronz I'm not saying defenses haven't changed or even improved since the rules have been changed between different eras of basketball but flailing your arms 20 years ago wouldn't buy you as much as it does today in fact i would lay bets other players around the league back then call you soft or a straight up ***** for not even playing but instead ACTING like that to get an easy 2 points. To me it's not even basketball its acting and acting and it takes away from the game.

Also like i said it is apples to oranges because if you compare todays nba elite players to previous eras.... Well you are a smart guy you can see the difference in the clear point i brought up regarding flopping. As for the thread topic on hand checking i don't see how giving defenses more power to defend --> makes it harder for the offensive player to score like you mentioned can you explain in more detail? When i think about it logically if you take power away from the defender it would make it easier for the offensive player and offensive players would exploit that. All I'm saying is with any major rule change theres a different generation of basketball and people play according to those new rules but comparing decades of basketball with hand checking to the latest era where its illegal is apples to oranges in comparison.

Some very good points sean , has the balance of power shifted too far on the side of the offensive player ? I'm sure there are a million advanced stats out there saying i'm off base when i say this but it just seems to me ( team defensive schemes aside ) the elite " on the ball " defender takes it on the chin so to speak in the regular season .

hornetsfansydne
12-28-2013, 06:44 AM
The game of basketball is constantly evolving. A bigger influence on team ball is coming thanks to the influx of Europeans in the league. Think the Spurs offense which relies on ball movement. This is a very european style of game where the focus is on ball movement and player movement, not the American style iso ball.

To answer the question of hand checks though, I can never see the NBA allowing that sort of thing again. The NBA is all about entertainment and getting the athletic guys free to throw down huge dunks, that is what gets bums in seats and then money through the doors. By allowing hand checks you give them defense a chance to guide a player around the court and not allow him to get to his spot and this is a huge advantage to the defense.

Also hand checks encourage rough behaviour on the court. Constantly having a hand on you guiding you to where you don't want to be is freaking annoying! The chance of hand checking aggravating already inflated egos/tempers is a big risk and the NBA does not want another Palace or Nuggets/Knicks problem on their hands.

tdg823
12-28-2013, 08:18 AM
2 points I don't fully buy into

1. Defenses can be more athletic and intricate all they want, but if the players playing defense are lazier and lack awareness, the defense is worse. There just is no number to quantify this effect, but I think it passes the eye test. If you disagree, so be it, but I wouldn't recommend doing so very vigorously unless you can measure effort and awareness.

2. Slight tangent, but the midrange shot is not a more difficult shot than the three. Yes it's easier to get an OPEN 3, so there is probably where the validity in that statement lies, but a mid range shot is easier in similar conditions. It's comes off to me as saying 50 lbs is lighter than 40 lbs. You might lift it in a more efficient way, but it's not lighter.
\
And ghettosean was dead on in his first post. The league is all about profit ( a theme of mine) and creating the next marketable superstar. The rules are and just one more way to accomplish their goals of maximum profit.

Chronz
12-28-2013, 02:03 PM
Chronz I'm not saying defenses haven't changed or even improved since the rules have been changed between different eras of basketball but flailing your arms 20 years ago wouldn't buy you as much as it does today in fact i would lay bets other players around the league back then call you soft or a straight up ***** for not even playing but instead ACTING like that to get an easy 2 points. To me it's not even basketball its acting and acting and it takes away from the game.
I just dont buy the opinion that flailing is effecting free throw attempts in the manner that you do, if its had any sort of influence it has been minor. Flopping is such a minuscule part of the game that I fail to see the reason to stress its importance ahead of FAR more significant factors, like the allowance of zones, superior athletes, technology, coaching.

Players had an easier time leaking out and playing 1 on 1 ball.



Also like i said it is apples to oranges because if you compare todays nba elite players to previous eras.... Well you are a smart guy you can see the difference in the clear point i brought up regarding flopping.
Elite players yea, but the NBA is more talented as whole than it has been in a very long time.


As for the thread topic on hand checking i don't see how giving defenses more power to defend --> makes it harder for the offensive player to score like you mentioned can you explain in more detail? When i think about it logically if you take power away from the defender it would make it easier for the offensive player and offensive players would exploit that. All I'm saying is with any major rule change theres a different generation of basketball and people play according to those new rules but comparing decades of basketball with hand checking to the latest era where its illegal is apples to oranges in comparison.
Was this directed to the OP or me?

Chronz
12-28-2013, 02:21 PM
2 points I don't fully buy into

1. Defenses can be more athletic and intricate all they want, but if the players playing defense are lazier and lack awareness, the defense is worse.
If its more intricate it requires more awareness. Coaches today have to teach players how to defend on a string, the further back you go the more of a 1 on 1 defensive game it was, the reason, because you weren't allowed to defend as a unit, it was actually ILLEGAL for you to send a defender to clog up an isolation play. Thats why you see such easy game winners like this:
http://youtu.be/WoGmMx8Ejrw?t=9s

If you watch the play you see can actually hear the announcer say "You cant double yet!" and then as soon as Bird gets the ball at his sweet spot on Pippen, you see MJ run as fast as he can to get there, suffice it to say, most defenders arent as athletic or as motivated as MJ is and even he cant get close to contesting the ball. Before the play is set up, you see Cartwright point out when to double, the 2 were communicating and making sure they helped each other.

If you continue listening, you hear the announcer reiterate the fact, "remember, you cannot double team off the ball" explaining why they couldn't prevent such a quality look.


There just is no number to quantify this effect, but I think it passes the eye test. If you disagree, so be it, but I wouldn't recommend doing so very vigorously unless you can measure effort and awareness.
If you need more than stats to know that it was easier to get out in transition and that the NBA was much more free flowing and less intricate, then I wouldn't care to put much effort into the post. We can both claim the eye test supports our argument, that you lack any sort of objective measure doesn't help your argument, that you wish to dismiss them wouldn't be surprising, it would be typical of those in your position so feel free. Just know it doesn't hurt my argument that the numbers support my claims.



2. Slight tangent, but the midrange shot is not a more difficult shot than the three. Yes it's easier to get an OPEN 3, so there is probably where the validity in that statement lies, but a mid range shot is easier in similar conditions. It's comes off to me as saying 50 lbs is lighter than 40 lbs. You might lift it in a more efficient way, but it's not lighter.
Efficiency is what wins games however not degree difficulty.



And ghettosean was dead on in his first post. The league is all about profit ( a theme of mine) and creating the next marketable superstar. The rules are and just one more way to accomplish their goals of maximum profit.
Who was this created star then?

tdg823
12-29-2013, 01:33 AM
You could still double once they had the ball. I guess I don't see how that relates to awareness on defense in any significant way overall. Besides complexity doesn't necessarily equal heightened awareness, let alone effort. A new coach may run a more complex offensive scheme, the players may memorize the motions and go through them, but if they're still dense and disinterested, the offense won't be any more effective. More aesthetically pleasing and impressive looking? Maybe.

Now my point about stats is that they have to be taken in context. Statheads love stats, hate context because it undermines the value of their stats. I simply mean that you won't sway me with a litany of statistics, read a bit deeper into the situation they occurred in and present them together as a complete package. Sometimes that can't be done properly. Stats don't happen in a vacuum and aren't the whole story. Too often on here they are treated that way. It's understandable because arguing people's opinions on here without any support is a very pointless exercise, but guess what? Arguing stats without deeper meaning and more thorough understanding is still opinion and still pointless. Trust me, I don't expect to sway you or many others with my eye test arguments, simply to point out that I'm not as easily sway by shallow numerical arguments (not that they're all shallow by any means).
"Those in my position" Just curious, what's my position?

The created star was Jordan at the end of his career (although at least he "earned" his more than anyone after him), with a string of others to follow Vince, Kobe, Lebron, etc.. the league makes sure it's cash cows always have the "wind at their back" so to speak, some just get more time to grow into their role and some do better than others with the extra opportunity.

Chronz
12-29-2013, 02:34 AM
You could still double once they had the ball.
Which you can still do today, not being able to load up the strong side box is a weakness no matter how badly you wish to ignore it. That you could ONLY double once they had the ball is what LIMITS the defense from creative zone schemes.



I guess I don't see how that relates to awareness on defense in any significant way overall.
It relates more to defensive strength, less easy transition buckets, more half court grinds with defenses allowed to position themselves however they wish, unlike the days of yore where it was basically 1 on 1. Players have to be aware of more actions outside their 1 man and when to double. They have to react at all times to ball movement. Spatial awareness is more important today than ever before.



Besides complexity doesn't necessarily equal heightened awareness, let alone effort. A new coach may run a more complex offensive scheme, the players may memorize the motions and go through them, but if they're still dense and disinterested, the offense won't be any more effective. More aesthetically pleasing and impressive looking? Maybe.
Well for one, this comparison doesn't work because teams were literally not allowed to run these complex schemes back then. That they have proven to be more effective methods of containing individuals is something that was established long ago, when an infant NBA made zones illegal.


Now my point about stats is that they have to be taken in context. Statheads love stats, hate context because it undermines the value of their stats.
This is laughable, "stat heads" are the ones who are most curious about context. There was actually a thread on this not too long ago, spare me your laughable theories.


I simply mean that you won't sway me with a litany of statistics, read a bit deeper into the situation they occurred in and present them together as a complete package. Sometimes that can't be done properly. Stats don't happen in a vacuum and aren't the whole story. Too often on here they are treated that way. It's understandable because arguing people's opinions on here without any support is a very pointless exercise, but guess what? Arguing stats without deeper meaning and more thorough understanding is still opinion and still pointless. Trust me, I don't expect to sway you or many others with my eye test arguments, simply to point out that I'm not as easily sway by shallow numerical arguments (not that they're all shallow by any means).
"Those in my position" Just curious, what's my position?
Understood, I dont expect the shallow analysis given by everyone here to be worthy of being the stamp of authority, quite frankly we are all just dishing out opinions, but I've provided footage and alluded to the numbers bearing out key facts. Transition basketball is far less prevalent today than it was in the past, teams are learning new and better ways to break down the very statistics you seem so unsure about. I guess my point is that we can both point to the eye test, but the numbers are less subjective. Better to have objective support to go with your subjective view point, that my friend, is how you break down your word of the day, CONTEXT.


The created star was Jordan at the end of his career (although at least he "earned" his more than anyone after him), with a string of others to follow Vince, Kobe, Lebron, etc.. the league makes sure it's cash cows always have the "wind at their back" so to speak, some just get more time to grow into their role and some do better than others with the extra opportunity.
Then why did so many of those players speak out against the allowance of zones? Tmac, KG, Duncan, AI etc... they all openly spoke negatively of it. The league didn't care that it stifled individual players, some said it was instituted to diminish Shaq and AI type of isolation/post heavy attacks.

Look, I get that you dont like numbers, but can you support your opinion with any sort of subjective evidence? By eye test, what exactly is it you allude to? Why ignore that fast breaks have gone down as a result of a shift in coaching philosophies defensively? Teams dont pursue offensive rebounds as much anymore because they prefer to get back IMO, havent looked up the numbers on that one but at least Im making actual basketball talking points. What is it you mean by the eye test?

FlashBolt
12-29-2013, 02:37 AM
You guys do know handchecking is still part of the nba, right? It's not as common but it's still being done...

Chronz
12-29-2013, 02:42 AM
You guys do know handchecking is still part of the nba, right? It's not as common but it's still being done...

bingo

beasted86
12-29-2013, 02:55 AM
Defenses aren't better today than they were in the 90s. Offenses are just worse than they were in the 90s and therefore it falsely skews DRtg to set a false trend.

Some people like to tie the two together hand in hand, but that isn't accurate in my opinion.

Today is a jumpshooter's league. Instead of many teams having a post presence that is consistently getting them high percentage shots, nowadays you have a bunch of JR Smiths shooting 14 times a game at 41%. It's the cool thing to do now and still be called a "good scorer". Also in the 90s teams were shooting a load more FTs so it increased the efficiency double fold. The addition of zone defenses which most teams run in some format also helps to encourage more bad jumpshooting offense. When you are zoning it is easier to deflect entry passes or quick double and cause a turnover. Pretty much every team for multiple possessions every game runs a box and 1 which works against the perimeter oriented offense of today's league.

Is better defense leading to worse offense? or is worse offense leading to more effective defense? I say the latter.

tdg823
12-29-2013, 03:53 AM
Alright young man, so loading up the strong side box is a weakness, spatial awareness is important and transition buckets are down. That's great. Perhaps people actually learned how to stay in front of their man when they had to rely on 1 on 1's and the fundamental skills of man to man defense has eroded because coaches don't have to stress it (or coach it) anymore. Maybe kids eyeing the league ignore the concept because of the prevelance of zones? Lack of spatial awareness is probably why bad teams give up so many easy buckets. Relevance to prior generations? The only way an outlet pass is on sportscenter is if it ends in a nice dunk. Therefore the new self centered generation of basketball players sees more value in trying to force it up themselves? Their teammates don't run the floor as hard because they don't have the ball or don't expect to get it back? Increased athleticism decreases transition opportunity? There's layers of context there that you fail to consider. It's not nearly as black and white as it would seem.

Call it silly if you want, but I always see the statheads on here (for good reason as I pointed out) but I very rarely see any relevant factors considered. Like I said, they don't happen in a vacuum. You know what's laughable? That you take this so serious. You never convince anyone or prove anything on here, get over yourself. You could scratch you ***** all day and it would be just as productive as your 30,000+ posts. Get a girl and a gym or Y membership before you talk down to me, okay son?
Change is always met with grumbling, but I think the overwhelming consensus (I know, cite, link verify... believe me or not, whatever, go check yourself) is that a player like Jordan would have feasted in today's NBA. Poll your comrades on it if you want. Call some GM's, do you. So it would seem that it hasn't been to bad for individual play., just ugly boring post play that the league hates.
I have ignored nothing (although you made I good point about efficiency winning games that I forgot to give you credit for, my apologies on that), and though I tire of this quickly, out of sheer stubbornness will ignore nothing.
The eye test is having watched the game for years. Maybe not as much as some of you, but more than enough to be able to have a credible opinion and state it without being talked down to. Hence the "high horse" though, right?

tdg823
12-29-2013, 04:04 AM
and beasted that's a point I agree with and have made before. I think worse offense is leading to more effective defense. but like the owl and the tootsie pop, the world will never know...

FOXHOUND
12-29-2013, 04:12 AM
Defenses aren't better today than they were in the 90s. Offenses are just worse than they were in the 90s and therefore it falsely skews DRtg to set a false trend.

Some people like to tie the two together hand in hand, but that isn't accurate in my opinion.

Today is a jumpshooter's league. Instead of many teams having a post presence that is consistently getting them high percentage shots, nowadays you have a bunch of JR Smiths shooting 14 times a game at 41%. It's the cool thing to do now and still be called a "good scorer". Also in the 90s teams were shooting a load more FTs so it increased the efficiency double fold. The addition of zone defenses which most teams run in some format also helps to encourage more bad jumpshooting offense. When you are zoning it is easier to deflect entry passes or quick double and cause a turnover. Pretty much every team for multiple possessions every game runs a box and 1 which works against the perimeter oriented offense of today's league.

Is better defense leading to worse offense? or is worse offense leading to more effective defense? I say the latter.

You answered your question in your post. The zone defense and hybrid defenses of today are designed to allow more jump shots, tougher shots. It's a much more team orientated game, it's far easier for a team to hone in on one player now a days. An elite player can still do great things vs top defenses but now you need a far better team around that player to succeed than you would have needed before zone defenses. Having a weak link on offense hurts you much more than it used to because a good defense can dictate where the ball is going. A good D can make sure the ball finds the weaker offensive players, or leave the better offensive players in a position where they have to take tougher shots to keep the ball away from the weaker offensive players. Either way, the D wins in that scenario.

But like another poster said, more intricate Ds require smarter players. The Knicks are a perfect example, where Mike Woodson is dead set on running a complicated defensive scheme that his roster clearly is not capable of executing on a consistent basis. When you have the smart coach with the smart players it's a thing of beauty, like what Thibs has done in BOS and CHI or what Pop has done in SA or Vogel in IND, etc. When you have one or the other, or a coach running a scheme that is over his or his players heads, you have a disaster.

The elite D's of this era are better than any other elite D in NBA history. They simply have more ability to disrupt offenses and hone in on star players like you never could without zone defenses and the better athletes of today. By the same token offenses are becoming more sophisticated than ever to combat these strong defenses, they feed off of each other. Basketball is at a more sophisticated level than it's ever been at and that trend is going to continue to go up.

FlashBolt
12-29-2013, 12:02 PM
There is no such thing as worse offense because of jumpshots. If anything, it is more of a complete game of offensive ability. Way better shooters and scorers.

Chronz
12-29-2013, 12:32 PM
Defenses aren't better today than they were in the 90s. Offenses are just worse than they were in the 90s and therefore it falsely skews DRtg to set a false trend.

Some people like to tie the two together hand in hand, but that isn't accurate in my opinion.

Today is a jumpshooter's league. Instead of many teams having a post presence that is consistently getting them high percentage shots, nowadays you have a bunch of JR Smiths shooting 14 times a game at 41%. It's the cool thing to do now and still be called a "good scorer". Also in the 90s teams were shooting a load more FTs so it increased the efficiency double fold. The addition of zone defenses which most teams run in some format also helps to encourage more bad jumpshooting offense. When you are zoning it is easier to deflect entry passes or quick double and cause a turnover. Pretty much every team for multiple possessions every game runs a box and 1 which works against the perimeter oriented offense of today's league.

Is better defense leading to worse offense? or is worse offense leading to more effective defense? I say the latter.

I fail to see how offenses are getting worse when shooters are better than ever before. Zone defenses do encourage jump shots, thats the point of their allowance, to decrease the scoring power of isolation/post play.

Less fast break basketball/offensive rebounding (in favor of transition balance) is what has lead to a decrease in efficiency more than anything, dont see any of that in your post by the way.

I mean, its not like MJ and people from his era were becoming more efficient as the game progressed, despite many stars entering their primes.

Either way the difference is negligible. Superstars dominate regardless of era.

Chronz
12-29-2013, 12:55 PM
Alright young man, so loading up the strong side box is a weakness,
Typo right? Cuz its a strength the defense has today that it didn't during the good ol days.



Perhaps people actually learned how to stay in front of their man when they had to rely on 1 on 1's and the fundamental skills of man to man defense has eroded because coaches don't have to stress it (or coach it) anymore.
Well even if true its not like they had a choice, again they weren't allowed to move freely back then. You ask players whats harder to accomplish, getting by the initial defender or getting by a wall of defenders, which do you think they would choose? Dont you see, that pointing out that coaches aren't stressing it (ur theory not mine) tells us how much more important team defense is. Back before the zone was allowed, college coaches used to mock the NBA for their simple/limited methods of defense. When Hakeem came from College and into the NBA , he was actually GRATEFUL for the fact that teams couldn't zone him up. Do you remember the series that he struggled in, remember the outcry his team had against their opponents use of an illegal D? Remember when MJ had his worst Finals individually and what his coach (Phil) complained about? The recurring theme is ZONE D.


Maybe kids eyeing the league ignore the concept because of the prevelance of zones? Lack of spatial awareness is probably why bad teams give up so many easy buckets.
But thats actually not true, there are far less plays given up in isolation and transition. You actually have to play more halfcourt team oriented offense to score now, its not as easy as clearing out one side of the floor and watching as the defense is helpless to trap off the ball.


Relevance to prior generations? The only way an outlet pass is on sportscenter is if it ends in a nice dunk. Therefore the new self centered generation of basketball players sees more value in trying to force it up themselves? Their teammates don't run the floor as hard because they don't have the ball or don't expect to get it back? Increased athleticism decreases transition opportunity? There's layers of context there that you fail to consider. It's not nearly as black and white as it would seem.
LOL so these kids want to get on sportscenter but they dont want to run and get the easiest of buckets, transition scores? Context still requires some sort of logic and any shred of proof, its not that they dont run its that the defense is already back because they no longer prioritize offensive rebounding over transition balance.


Call it silly if you want, but I always see the statheads on here (for good reason as I pointed out) but I very rarely see any relevant factors considered. Like I said, they don't happen in a vacuum.
Its more than silly, and you need to realize that we can both claim that the other is missing out on relevant factors, that numbers support my argument and you ignore them in yours doesn't strengthen your position. I dont have to apologize for the numbers bearing out what I've witnessed. Its far better than the lack of evidence (OF ANY KIND) that you have submitted.


You know what's laughable? That you take this so serious. You never convince anyone or prove anything on here, get over yourself. You could scratch you ***** all day and it would be just as productive as your 30,000+ posts.
Thats just your opinion on something you couldn't possibly understand, so why would I care? I've already had people tell me they have valued/learned from my posts over the years, I dont post here to make friends or enemies, I post for 1 reason alone, TO TALK BALL. Plz try to keep the debate on topic. And want to know why I dont take this serious? Because I actually dont find the difference to be all that dramatic. I just love talking ball.



Get a girl and a gym or Y membership before you talk down to me, okay son?
Have both. See how fruitless/pointless personal attacks are? If you want to insult me, keep it on basketball related terms, we dont know each other outside of an internet board so any sort of insult just comes off pretentious. I know that seems to be all you're capable of but keep it ball related.



Change is always met with grumbling, but I think the overwhelming consensus (I know, cite, link verify... believe me or not, whatever, go check yourself) is that a player like Jordan would have feasted in today's NBA. Poll your comrades on it if you want. Call some GM's, do you. So it would seem that it hasn't been to bad for individual play., just ugly boring post play that the league hates.
Sure, just as soon as you get to explaining how the league can cater to stars (as you asserted) yet completely ignore their profound hatred of the allowance of zones. LOL Lemme guess, zones have helped the individual scorer.



I have ignored nothing (although you made I good point about efficiency winning games that I forgot to give you credit for, my apologies on that), and though I tire of this quickly, out of sheer stubbornness will ignore nothing.
The eye test is having watched the game for years. Maybe not as much as some of you, but more than enough to be able to have a credible opinion and state it without being talked down to. Hence the "high horse" though, right?
Forget it, I know what the eye test means, what Im looking for is what the eye test means specifically, what is it that you think you are watching.

How could you be so wrong about the leagues intentions? Why bring forth the zone if they want to enhance stars?

Chronz
12-29-2013, 01:05 PM
You answered your question in your post. The zone defense and hybrid defenses of today are designed to allow more jump shots, tougher shots. It's a much more team orientated game, it's far easier for a team to hone in on one player now a days. An elite player can still do great things vs top defenses but now you need a far better team around that player to succeed than you would have needed before zone defenses. Having a weak link on offense hurts you much more than it used to because a good defense can dictate where the ball is going. A good D can make sure the ball finds the weaker offensive players, or leave the better offensive players in a position where they have to take tougher shots to keep the ball away from the weaker offensive players. Either way, the D wins in that scenario.

But like another poster said, more intricate Ds require smarter players. The Knicks are a perfect example, where Mike Woodson is dead set on running a complicated defensive scheme that his roster clearly is not capable of executing on a consistent basis. When you have the smart coach with the smart players it's a thing of beauty, like what Thibs has done in BOS and CHI or what Pop has done in SA or Vogel in IND, etc. When you have one or the other, or a coach running a scheme that is over his or his players heads, you have a disaster.

The elite D's of this era are better than any other elite D in NBA history. They simply have more ability to disrupt offenses and hone in on star players like you never could without zone defenses and the better athletes of today. By the same token offenses are becoming more sophisticated than ever to combat these strong defenses, they feed off of each other. Basketball is at a more sophisticated level than it's ever been at and that trend is going to continue to go up.

1 of the reasons zones were eventually allowed was because teams were beginning to run them in some form or fashion anyways, fudging the lines between illegal/legal. I remember a league wide outcry about the proliferation of zones, with just about every team sending video tape of the offenses. Sort of how teams pack the paint for more than 3 seconds knowing the ref wont call every single violation. Spacing is so much more important today because, like you said, defenses can shade off of non-shooters and simply muck up the paint.

Heat fans should know first hand the importance of shooting today.

PurpleLynch
12-29-2013, 03:15 PM
Bring back post offense!

PurpleLynch
12-29-2013, 03:17 PM
The game is focusing on threes? Yes,and it was D'Antoni's fault. Dammit that man. :)

savvy1803
12-29-2013, 06:05 PM
You guys do know handchecking is still part of the nba, right? It's not as common but it's still being done...

Part of NBA , yes i would agree with that but certainly not as prevalent or universally accepted as current NBA rules are stated . Try putting your hands on any superstar player down low on the block with his back not to the basket or just before they go into their move on the perimeter and see how long the ref keeps his whistle in his pocket , not long in my opinion .

Defenders do what they can against great players but they also know they are walking the razors edge with the zebras should they be caught , the quick whistle seems destined to stay and only come playoff time does it seem to be relaxed .

Reputation plays a part as well both on offense and defense , Roy Hibbert one of the league's best rim protectors let it be known that in the off season he was working hard on his game and his defense . He also let it be known that he was concentrating on staying as vertical as possible while contesting shots down in the paint area hopefully cutting down on his foul numbers and it seemed to work . The refs were now willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt at times the following season because Roy had put in the work and was trying to contest shots in a more stay vertical manner . His interior defense is now widely applauded and i believe Roy's reputation rose a bit with the refs , now does he stay perfectly vertical on every contest ? No he does not ( he's a human being not a robot ) but he has built up his cache with the refs to the point where the quick foul call can be relaxed or in some cases dismissed . It also does not hurt him that Indiana is a team that tries hard to plays tough defense both on the ball and as a team .

Offensively , superstar players are going to get their call's and i get that , it just seems at times when a foul is called you find yourself looking for the point of contact and the actual foul itself and wonder why they blew the damn whistle , again reputation plays a part .

savvy1803
12-29-2013, 06:21 PM
Typo right? Cuz its a strength the defense has today that it didn't during the good ol days.



Well even if true its not like they had a choice, again they weren't allowed to move freely back then. You ask players whats harder to accomplish, getting by the initial defender or getting by a wall of defenders, which do you think they would choose? Dont you see, that pointing out that coaches aren't stressing it (ur theory not mine) tells us how much more important team defense is. Back before the zone was allowed, college coaches used to mock the NBA for their simple/limited methods of defense. When Hakeem came from College and into the NBA , he was actually GRATEFUL for the fact that teams couldn't zone him up. Do you remember the series that he struggled in, remember the outcry his team had against their opponents use of an illegal D? Remember when MJ had his worst Finals individually and what his coach (Phil) complained about? The recurring theme is ZONE D.


But thats actually not true, there are far less plays given up in isolation and transition. You actually have to play more halfcourt team oriented offense to score now, its not as easy as clearing out one side of the floor and watching as the defense is helpless to trap off the ball.


LOL so these kids want to get on sportscenter but they dont want to run and get the easiest of buckets, transition scores? Context still requires some sort of logic and any shred of proof, its not that they dont run its that the defense is already back because they no longer prioritize offensive rebounding over transition balance.


Its more than silly, and you need to realize that we can both claim that the other is missing out on relevant factors, that numbers support my argument and you ignore them in yours doesn't strengthen your position. I dont have to apologize for the numbers bearing out what I've witnessed. Its far better than the lack of evidence (OF ANY KIND) that you have submitted.


Thats just your opinion on something you couldn't possibly understand, so why would I care? I've already had people tell me they have valued/learned from my posts over the years, I dont post here to make friends or enemies, I post for 1 reason alone, TO TALK BALL. Plz try to keep the debate on topic. And want to know why I dont take this serious? Because I actually dont find the difference to be all that dramatic. I just love talking ball.



Have both. See how fruitless/pointless personal attacks are? If you want to insult me, keep it on basketball related terms, we dont know each other outside of an internet board so any sort of insult just comes off pretentious. I know that seems to be all you're capable of but keep it ball related.



Sure, just as soon as you get to explaining how the league can cater to stars (as you asserted) yet completely ignore their profound hatred of the allowance of zones. LOL Lemme guess, zones have helped the individual scorer.



Forget it, I know what the eye test means, what Im looking for is what the eye test means specifically, what is it that you think you are watching.

How could you be so wrong about the leagues intentions? Why bring forth the zone if they want to enhance stars?

Chronz and tdg83 , i feel you both have made so many valuable points here don't let it become personal , it's simply a discussion and every viewpoint given here can be debated without taking it to a toxic level . I appreciate all posters opinion's in this thread even if i do not agree with some of them .

Chronz
12-30-2013, 11:49 AM
Part of NBA , yes i would agree with that but certainly not as prevalent or universally accepted as current NBA rules are stated . Try putting your hands on any superstar player down low on the block with his back not to the basket or just before they go into their move on the perimeter and see how long the ref keeps his whistle in his pocket , not long in my opinion .

Defenders do what they can against great players but they also know they are walking the razors edge with the zebras should they be caught , the quick whistle seems destined to stay and only come playoff time does it seem to be relaxed .
Refs are about the same, whats different is the ability to scout and prepare for the opposition. Players aren't caught out of position as often, dont gamble as often either. But I suppose that could go both ways. Foul rates dont differ dramatically do they?


Reputation plays a part as well both on offense and defense , Roy Hibbert one of the league's best rim protectors let it be known that in the off season he was working hard on his game and his defense . He also let it be known that he was concentrating on staying as vertical as possible while contesting shots down in the paint area hopefully cutting down on his foul numbers and it seemed to work . The refs were now willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt at times the following season because Roy had put in the work and was trying to contest shots in a more stay vertical manner . His interior defense is now widely applauded and i believe Roy's reputation rose a bit with the refs , now does he stay perfectly vertical on every contest ? No he does not ( he's a human being not a robot ) but he has built up his cache with the refs to the point where the quick foul call can be relaxed or in some cases dismissed . It also does not hurt him that Indiana is a team that tries hard to plays tough defense both on the ball and as a team .

Offensively , superstar players are going to get their call's and i get that , it just seems at times when a foul is called you find yourself looking for the point of contact and the actual foul itself and wonder why they blew the damn whistle , again reputation plays a part .
Thats been true from day 2 how ever. Phil used to say that if an entire team is playing aggressively that they build up that rep and get away with a few fouls. He used to blame Shaq for lax defense when all the other 4 players were playing up on their man and used to think that was a reason for a his foul trouble in certain games. Dont know if its true or not but the thought has been out there.

Chronz
12-30-2013, 11:51 AM
nvm

IKnowHoops
12-30-2013, 01:43 PM
IMO, when it comes to offenses now a days. Much bigger and better athletes now. I feel that since Jordan entered the league, a false sense of how the game is supposed to be played set in on all the younger 2's and 3's of the league. Before Jordan, it seemed that team passing was the best way to create offense and get high percentage open jump shots. Now, and ever since the Jordan era, much more emphasis has been put on players creating there own offense, there own space, and thus there own opportunities to get high percentage open jump shots. In the Jordan era and before, teams scored a lot more points than they do now. I feel a combination of lack of offensive flow (to many Kobe wannabes), and zone d has had more of a negative impact on scoring, than the emergence of better players, and better athletes with better one on one games, has had a positive one.

LOOTERX9
12-30-2013, 02:51 PM
Nba has become hard to watch in general cause of ticky tac foul calls. Watching free throw shooting contest the whole game is more boring than watching real defense from hand checking. Id rather lower scoring over the higher scoring and more whistle blowing that kills the flow of the game. Nba must allow some type of contact without whistle blowing every other possesion. Its boring to watch plain and simple. Nfl has that problem too with too many flags thrown on pass interferances

ghettosean
12-30-2013, 02:53 PM
I just dont buy the opinion that flailing is effecting free throw attempts in the manner that you do, if its had any sort of influence it has been minor. Flopping is such a minuscule part of the game that I fail to see the reason to stress its importance ahead of FAR more significant factors, like the allowance of zones, superior athletes, technology, coaching.

Players had an easier time leaking out and playing 1 on 1 ball.


We might have to agree to disagree on that one but the NBA has made it a priority to get rid of flopping miniscule or not it degrading the game when you see a player pretend they were hit and gets rewarded because of it.




Elite players yea, but the NBA is more talented as whole than it has been in a very long time.

Agreed


Was this directed to the OP or me?

It was directed to you but I will say that if we have superior athletes today I don't see the harm in bringing hand checking back since it will make the game more physical and exciting on both ends of the floor. If they are superior athletes then maybe the game should be more physical not less. I mean why have a more physical game when there where inferior athletes???

Doesn't make sense to me!

Chronz
12-30-2013, 03:10 PM
We might have to agree to disagree on that one but the NBA has made it a priority to get rid of flopping miniscule or not it degrading the game when you see a player pretend they were hit and gets rewarded because of it.
And look at how rare the violations are. Why put such importance in a minuscule aspect of the game in comparison to the far more influential rule changes that impact every possession?



It was directed to you but I will say that if we have superior athletes today I don't see the harm in bringing hand checking back since it will make the game more physical and exciting on both ends of the floor. If they are superior athletes then maybe the game should be more physical not less. I mean why have a more physical game when there where inferior athletes???
Because thats the way its always been, the further back you go the more physical the game is. The physicality in the 60's/70's was harder than the 80's for example. Rule changes are created to promote balance.

LOOTERX9
12-30-2013, 03:33 PM
Nba has added too many new rules each season that slows down flow of game. The game play is interupted far too often by whistle being blown. Any time i see a defender play aggressively i already can sense a foul is bout to be called. Even worst is the away from the ball foul calls. Stern in trying to open up the offense and make nba scoring go up has instead made the game tedious to watch. And also the tech for touching ball after going in hoop is beyond pathetic and not needed. Nba better stop adding new rules each season. Its killing the watch value

savvy1803
12-31-2013, 05:12 PM
Refs are about the same, whats different is the ability to scout and prepare for the opposition. Players aren't caught out of position as often, dont gamble as often either. But I suppose that could go both ways. Foul rates dont differ dramatically do they?



Thats been true from day 2 how ever. Phil used to say that if an entire team is playing aggressively that they build up that rep and get away with a few fouls. He used to blame Shaq for lax defense when all the other 4 players were playing up on their man and used to think that was a reason for a his foul trouble in certain games. Dont know if its true or not but the thought has been out there.

I'm not sure about the foul rates Chronz , i'm just a little concerned that the balance has shifted a little more to the offensive player and that defenders are being minimized more with ticky tack foul calls . I don't have any numbers to support my theory so maybe yourself or others could chime in on this , i just feel from watching games right now that there are so many quick whistles for fouls that i don't often see as actual fouls .

I'm not sure if this is the case either but aggressive , active , defensive teams do seem at times to get away with just a little more .

savvy1803
12-31-2013, 05:17 PM
Nba has added too many new rules each season that slows down flow of game. The game play is interupted far too often by whistle being blown. Any time i see a defender play aggressively i already can sense a foul is bout to be called. Even worst is the away from the ball foul calls. Stern in trying to open up the offense and make nba scoring go up has instead made the game tedious to watch. And also the tech for touching ball after going in hoop is beyond pathetic and not needed. Nba better stop adding new rules each season. Its killing the watch value

Some good points Looter and i agree with you , sometimes i just wish they would just let them play and not be so whistle happy .