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JordansBulls
12-24-2013, 11:56 AM
Is Kevin Durant already higher than Tmac or Dominique Wilkins on the all time list?

FlashBolt
12-24-2013, 12:15 PM
Higher than TMAC. Few more years to pass Dom.

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 12:36 PM
Higher than TMAC. Few more years to pass Dom.

I feel the same way. Although I feel that Durant is a much better all around player than Nique was. Skills wise, he's more of a T-mac type player. But what Nique bought to the game was special and instrumental to the development of the NBA.

DreamShaker
12-24-2013, 12:38 PM
Higher than TMAC. Few more years to pass Dom.

I'll go with this. I would take him over both of those guys, and he's already made the Finals once, but you have to be cautious with guys that young. T-Mac was robbed of many years by injuries, but Durant is 25, and he is not promised the next day.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-24-2013, 12:38 PM
1. Wilkins
2. Durant
3. McGrady

DreamShaker
12-24-2013, 12:44 PM
I feel the same way. Although I feel that Durant is a much better all around player than Nique was. Skills wise, he's more of a T-mac type player. But what Nique bought to the game was special and instrumental to the development of the NBA.

Nique is one of my favorite players ever. He has become a little underrated by some. Some people say "he was only a dunker", which is ridiculous. Guy deserves to be in the HOF. One of the best volume scorers ever, and could rebound and play at least some defense. Had a killer instinct. I get the knocks on him, but he deserves credit for what he could do.

Crackadalic
12-24-2013, 12:45 PM
How did I know this was a Jordansbulls thread

Wilkins
Durant
Mcgrady

b@llhog24
12-24-2013, 12:51 PM
JB do you have the link to the top 50 thread? Anyways KD is not higher than Nique, and without thinking bout it too much neither Tmac. I'll look into after I get the link though.

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 12:53 PM
JB do you have the link to the top 50 thread? Anyways KD is not higher than Nique, and without thinking bout it too much neither Tmac. I'll look into after I get the link though.

Of course Kevin Durant is higher than T-mac. I loved T-mac but he stayed hurt. Nique was involved in EPIC playoff games and dunk contests (When they mattered). Although T-mac was involved in the last real dunk contest.

b@llhog24
12-24-2013, 12:56 PM
Of course Kevin Durant is higher than T-mac. I loved T-mac but he stayed hurt. Nique was involved in EPIC playoff games and dunk contests (When they mattered). Although T-mac was involved in the last real dunk contest.

Maybe. I'll hold off on where I stand once I look into it some more.

JordansBulls
12-24-2013, 01:09 PM
JB do you have the link to the top 50 thread? Anyways KD is not higher than Nique, and without thinking bout it too much neither Tmac. I'll look into after I get the link though.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?635088-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time

Nique was 42 and Tmac #48

FlashBolt
12-24-2013, 01:15 PM
Nique should be higher than 42.

5ass
12-24-2013, 01:18 PM
How did I know this was a Jordansbulls thread

Wilkins
Durant
Mcgrady

His thread titles are always long?

ThuglifeJ
12-24-2013, 01:46 PM
OK. Prime Tmac is quickly forgotten on here..

If he didn't get hurt he'd take Durant imo. Durants a better shooter but Tmac could energize a team with his inspiring jaw dropping skill.

It annoys me when after someone sees some old film and will say "WOW I forgot he was that good!". Ppl see Prime Durant now, and the last years a washed washed up Tmac in which he was a tail end of jokes, vs a highly respected superstar

Jamiecballer
12-24-2013, 02:07 PM
I'm in the minority but I'll say almost at tmac and beyond wilkins

COOLbeans
12-24-2013, 02:56 PM
I'm in the minority but I'll say almost at tmac and beyond wilkins

Ill also go with this assessment

Jamiecballer
12-24-2013, 03:00 PM
Ill also go with this assessment
Correct me if I'm wrong but was Wilkins ever considered one of 3 or 4 best players in the game? That's the basis of my vote.

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 03:49 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but was Wilkins ever considered one of 3 or 4 best players in the game? That's the basis of my vote.

Durant/T-mac never played in a league with prime:
Jordan
Bird
Magic

If so, they would NEVER be considered top 3 in league. Stop it.

NYSpirit1
12-24-2013, 03:56 PM
Wow no.. Dude's been elite for a few years..

But it's going to take a few more to pass up T-Mac and 'Nique.

People forget just how good T-Mac was.

Jamiecballer
12-24-2013, 03:56 PM
Durant/T-mac never played in a league with prime:
Jordan
Bird
Magic

If so, they would NEVER be considered top 3 in league. Stop it.

You'll be saying the exact same things about melo in 20 years. Except it will be lebron Kobe wade and Duncan. You stop.

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 04:01 PM
You'll be saying the exact same things about melo in 20 years. Except it will be lebron Kobe wade and Duncan. You stop.

Wade? How about Shaq. Melo? Get outta here. Im talking about today marty, I havent went out in the dalorean in a while. Cut it out.

Jamiecballer
12-24-2013, 04:12 PM
Wade? How about Shaq. Melo? Get outta here. Im talking about today marty, I havent went out in the dalorean in a while. Cut it out.

Point is he's a notch below talents like Mcgrady and Durant and comparable in that sense to Melo. People will make the same excuses for him in the future. Was it that hard to follow?

carnality
12-24-2013, 08:14 PM
Holy molly, you people must have never watched Tmac in his prime, dominating the SPURS by himself.
THE SPURS.

He was better than Kobe in his prime, and he was always unlucky to have to play alone due to his terrible luck.
Then he got injured.

Having said all that, Durant is a tick below the greatest, most complete player since Jordan.
I say this as a fan that is disgusted by Lebron, I hate the man with a passion.

I'm in the minority as well, when I state Durant has surpassed Wilkins, and this has nothing to do with who they're playing with. I'll agree with Jamiecballer, Wilkins was a Melo type talent, he's nowhere near the ceiling of Durant, or prime Tmac.

I'm not comparing careers, I'm strictly comparing "who's surpassed who?"

Google should McGrady be in the hall of fame for two great articles by the Bleacher Report and ProBasketball talk for his stats.

• McGrady was one of the NBA’s best players between the 2000-01 season and the 2007-08 season as a member of the Orlando Magic and Houston Rockets.

McGrady is one of seven players in NBA history to have eight straight seasons of 20 points per game, five rebounds per game and four assists per game. The others are Kobe Bryant (14), LeBron James (10), Michael Jordan (10), Oscar Robertson (10), Kevin Garnett (9) and Larry Bird (9).

• There are 15 other retired players in NBA history with at least 18,000 points, 5,000 rebounds and 4,000 assists in their careers. All 15 of those players are in the Basketball Hall of Fame.

• McGrady, Bird and James are the only players in NBA history with at least 15,000 points, 4,500 rebounds, 3,500 assists and 500 3-pointers in their first 11 seasons.

• McGrady is one of three players in the last 20 seasons to average at least 32 points per game in a season. He did so in 2002-03, and became the last player to average at least 32 points, 6.5 rebounds and 5.0 assists in a season. Only three other NBA players have done that in a season—Michael Jordan three times, Wilt Chamberlain twice, and Elgin Baylor once.

• The Elias Sports Bureau notes that there have been 60 players who have scored at least 18,000 points in their NBA careers. Of those 60, eight have played at least one game in a winning series in three playoff series or fewer. McGrady is on that list, along with Dave Bing (1), Reggie Theus (1), Walt Bellamy (2), Antawn Jamison (2), Bernard King (2), George Gervin (3) and Dominique Wilkins (3).

Read the stats, yes Wilkins changed the game, (strictly speaking on your quote) so have Derrick Rose and Roy Hibbert. Durant is already above both.

Watch some tape on Tmac, he's being completely disrespected in this thread.
And Durant hasn't shown a flash of Jordan yet, like Tmac has in VERY limited quantities (albeit), but he showed Jordanesque potential, as Lebron has.

KnicksorBust
12-24-2013, 08:53 PM
He will easily pass both but asking right now is silly when Durant is only 25 and still has more than half of his career in front of him.

thekmp211
12-24-2013, 09:40 PM
absolutely.

1. durant
2. t-mac
3. nique

in my opinion. this is also somewhat contingent on durant not blowing out his ACL's in the near future.

b@llhog24
12-24-2013, 09:41 PM
He will easily pass both but asking right now is silly when Durant is only 25 and still has more than half of his career in front of him.

Kind of how I feel.

effen5
12-25-2013, 04:43 AM
Id take a prime Tmac over Durant. Prime Tmac was nearly unstoppable.

tredigs
12-25-2013, 04:50 AM
Who cares if he's only 25? Stats aside, he's finished top 2 in MVP 3 times (also 5th) already and is going to finish 1st-3rd this year as well. That's already got both beat by a country mile in the pantheon.

Supreme LA
12-25-2013, 05:32 AM
So many people are so caught in the moment. T-Mac gets very little respect here and that's dissapointing.

T-Mac was definitely more skilled offensively and a better defender before injuries. The only thing Durant has on him is a slightly better shot, length, and the fortune of having a great organization to play for. I'll hold judgement until Durant's career is done.

Supreme LA
12-25-2013, 05:40 AM
Who cares if he's only 25? Stats aside, he's finished top 2 in MVP 3 times (also 5th) already and is going to finish 1st-3rd this year as well. That's already got both beat by a country mile in the pantheon.


You're really going to use MVP voting to make your argument? Do you even realize what the criteria is for MVP voting and the idiots who vote for the award? Do you think Durant would finish that high in MVP voting if he didn't have the benefit of having such a great team built around him? I mean he's obviously going to get the nod being the highest scorer on a contending team every year.

T-Mac was the more complete player in his prime for sure. If you put T-Mac at his prime in today's league and on a team that could compete there would be no doubt in my mind he would challenge everyone for the award. T-Mac was just simply the all around better player in his prime. There is no debate about that.

Hawkeye15
12-25-2013, 05:57 AM
Today?

Nique
Tmac
Durant

But unless Durant gets run over by a car shortly, he passes both pretty ****ing easily in the next 5 years.

b@llhog24
12-25-2013, 08:42 AM
Who cares if he's only 25? Stats aside, he's finished top 2 in MVP 3 times (also 5th) already and is going to finish 1st-3rd this year as well. That's already got both beat by a country mile in the pantheon.

Well it's obviously easier to prove your point when you put factors aside.

b@llhog24
12-25-2013, 08:43 AM
absolutely.

1. durant
2. t-mac
3. nique

in my opinion. this is also somewhat contingent on durant not blowing out his ACL's in the near future.

If's he's already ahead of them in your opinion, then why would a torn acl matter?

KnicksorBust
12-25-2013, 09:04 AM
Who cares if he's only 25? Stats aside, he's finished top 2 in MVP 3 times (also 5th) already and is going to finish 1st-3rd this year as well. That's already got both beat by a country mile in the pantheon.

Why compare someone who is only 1/3 into his career to retired players?

JiffyMix88
12-25-2013, 09:41 AM
Wow no.. Dude's been elite for a few years..

But it's going to take a few more to pass up T-Mac and 'Nique.

People forget just how good T-Mac was.

T-mac had a great 4-5 years but Kevin Durant has had better 4 years and has accomplished more within that time than T-Mac. Dominique had a very consistent 10 years so KD hasn't quite gotten to that point in my opinion but he will pass him within the next 3 years or if he gets a ship first.

ThuglifeJ
12-25-2013, 10:26 AM
So many people are so caught in the moment. T-Mac gets very little respect here and that's dissapointing.

T-Mac was definitely more skilled offensively and a better defender before injuries. The only thing Durant has on him is a slightly better shot, length, and the fortune of having a great organization to play for. I'll hold judgement until Durant's career is done.

+100000000000000000000000000000000

ThuglifeJ
12-25-2013, 10:40 AM
If a prime Tmac played today the only player that could be better than him is Lebron.

If prime Durant played in Tmacs era...I don't think he'd be making the leaps he's made today. He'd be just like all the dynamic scorers that came in late 90 early 2000

Chrisclover
12-25-2013, 10:54 AM
Durant can easily energize a team with his burning desire for victories. And the first round against the Rockets last year without the help of Westbrook was a case in point.
He is very healthy for the time being and if he keep this trend, he will easily surpass T-Mac in my mind

tredigs
12-25-2013, 11:30 AM
Well it's obviously easier to prove your point when you put factors aside.
I say that because if you take their 6 year primes (and TMac only had 6 years of prime ball) KD has the far better stats/resume.

People are too caught up in the idea of TMac then the reality at this point. Yeah, the dude was an absolute beast at the peak of his game, but that was pretty short lived. If you put aside nostalgia and look at them side by side, KD is the far more impactful player. "A slightly better shot is all KD had". Give me a ****ing break. We're talking about a guy who puts up 28+ a game on a TS% average well over 60 the past few years. Mac's a career 51.9 TS... and Nique was the high-flying Melo of his generation. Ton a fun to watch, but not in their leagues from a prime standpoint except for random stretches when he was really firing on all cylinders.





Why compare someone who is only 1/3 into his career to retired players?

WTF don't blame me. Because that is what the OP is asking?




Merry Christmas : ]

bagwell368
12-25-2013, 12:05 PM
Wilkins was a volume scorer, semi efficient. Didn't pass, didn't defend, didn't make his team better. Never grew out of the "human highlight film" routine like say Erving did.

Durant doesn't have enough history yet, but in his 3rd year he started posting years Wilkins could only dream of.

TMac is tough to pick on around here due to so many coming of age when he had his crazy great '02-'03 season. Excepting that season Durant buries him too, and say top 5 seasons already earned, Durant has him with ease.

Assuming Durant stays healthy and productive through say age 34, he's headed to a top 20 all time rating, possibly top 12, in particular if he can bring home more than 1 title - that Perk deal really hurt his mid career chances for sure.

bagwell368
12-25-2013, 12:10 PM
If a prime Tmac played today the only player that could be better than him is Lebron.

If prime Durant played in Tmacs era...I don't think he'd be making the leaps he's made today. He'd be just like all the dynamic scorers that came in late 90 early 2000

Prime TMac lasted one year. Durant has well passed him by: more efficient offense from everywhere on the floor, better and increasing defensive intensity.

b@llhog24
12-25-2013, 12:40 PM
I say that because if you take their 6 year primes (and TMac only had 6 years of prime ball) KD has the far better stats/resume.

People are too caught up in the idea of TMac then the reality at this point. Yeah, the dude was an absolute beast at the peak of his game, but that was pretty short lived. If you put aside nostalgia and look at them side by side, KD is the far more impactful player. "A slightly better shot is all KD had". Give me a ****ing break. We're talking about a guy who puts up 28+ a game on a TS% average well over 60 the past few years. Mac's a career 51.9 TS... and Nique was the high-flying Melo of his generation. Ton a fun to watch, but not in their leagues from a prime standpoint except for random stretches when he was really firing on all cylinders.






WTF don't blame me. Because that is what the OP is asking?




Merry Christmas : ]

I'm referring to years served. He hasn't passed him in cumulative numbers. I'd agree that he's had a better prime than Tmac, I've said it countless times last season. But if KD were to get a career ending injury today and never play again, I don't see it so black and white. He'd be on the bubble to the lower entry of the top 50 to me.

ThuglifeJ
12-25-2013, 12:41 PM
Well it's obviously easier to prove your point when you put factors aside.
I say that because if you take their 6 year primes (and TMac only had 6 years of prime ball) KD has the far better stats/resume.

People are too caught up in the idea of TMac then the reality at this point. Yeah, the dude was an absolute beast at the peak of his game, but that was pretty short lived. If you put aside nostalgia and look at them side by side, KD is the far more impactful player. "A slightly better shot is all KD had". Give me a ****ing break. We're talking about a guy who puts up 28+ a game on a TS% average well over 60 the past few years. Mac's a career 51.9 TS... and Nique was the high-flying Melo of his generation. Ton a fun to watch, but not in their leagues from a prime standpoint except for random stretches when he was really firing on all cylinders.





Why compare someone who is only 1/3 into his career to retired players?

WTF don't blame me. Because that is what the OP is asking?




Merry Christmas : ]

As if Tmac's TS % was reflective of his true impact..dude was doubled every possession and tripled when he got going. He had far more to carry on his back then Durant nightly. Far to many times you can see KD struggling on traps or doubles. Tmac on the other hand was unstoppable no matter what

thekmp211
12-25-2013, 01:44 PM
I say that because if you take their 6 year primes (and TMac only had 6 years of prime ball) KD has the far better stats/resume.

People are too caught up in the idea of TMac then the reality at this point. Yeah, the dude was an absolute beast at the peak of his game, but that was pretty short lived. If you put aside nostalgia and look at them side by side, KD is the far more impactful player. "A slightly better shot is all KD had". Give me a ****ing break. We're talking about a guy who puts up 28+ a game on a TS% average well over 60 the past few years. Mac's a career 51.9 TS... and Nique was the high-flying Melo of his generation. Ton a fun to watch, but not in their leagues from a prime standpoint except for random stretches when he was really firing on all cylinders.






WTF don't blame me. Because that is what the OP is asking?




Merry Christmas : ]

truth dagger to the heart of PSD. and i love me some t-mac. both he and nique have some interesting perception vs. reality things going in the discussion.

IKnowHoops
12-25-2013, 02:04 PM
How did I know this was a Jordansbulls thread

Wilkins
Durant
Mcgrady

I think its crazy that Stockton is above any of these guys but o well.

IKnowHoops
12-25-2013, 02:07 PM
Durant is already better than both.

IKnowHoops
12-25-2013, 02:17 PM
Peak years Tmac and Durant surpass Dom. My sg/sf all time list goes like this.

1.Bron
2.Jordan
3.Durant
4.Wade
5.Tmac
6.Kobe
7.Bird
8.Dr.J
9.Wilkins
10.Pippen

BKdoubleStacker
12-25-2013, 02:21 PM
Peak years Tmac and Durant surpass Dom. My sg/sf all time list goes like this.

1.Bron
2.Jordan
3.Durant
4.Wade
5.Tmac
6.Kobe
7.Bird
8.Dr.J
9.Wilkins
10.Pippen

Lulz

Supreme LA
12-25-2013, 02:47 PM
Peak years Tmac and Durant surpass Dom. My sg/sf all time list goes like this.

1.Bron
2.Jordan
3.Durant
4.Wade
5.Tmac
6.Kobe
7.Bird
8.Dr.J
9.Wilkins
10.Pippen

What????

macc
12-25-2013, 07:57 PM
Anyone who actually saw t Mac in his prime would take him over durrant. All the other kids on this thread who never saw a prime t Mac would take durrant. It's the age gap. As great as durrant is he was/is not the playmaker tmac was. Durrant is an elite scorer who finally learned how to past this last year. T Mac could score, shoot from anywhere, pass, rebound.... Ect. T Mac was the more complete player. So children stop it. If durrant was better he would of won the finals playing along side of harden, Westbrook and Ibaka. Tmac never had a team half as good as that. He took scrub orlando teams to the playoffs with the sec best player being Darrel Armstrong. When t Mac finally got on a team with another elite player (Yao Ming ) Ming got injured. He just had bad luck and ended his career because of injuries. A prime t Mac was better then Kobe. Can you see durrant being better then Kobe? The answer is no. That is how good tmac was. So children just stop it.

thekmp211
12-25-2013, 09:47 PM
Anyone who actually saw t Mac in his prime would take him over durrant. All the other kids on this thread who never saw a prime t Mac would take durrant. It's the age gap. As great as durrant is he was/is not the playmaker tmac was. Durrant is an elite scorer who finally learned how to past this last year. T Mac could score, shoot from anywhere, pass, rebound.... Ect. T Mac was the more complete player. So children stop it. If durrant was better he would of won the finals playing along side of harden, Westbrook and Ibaka. Tmac never had a team half as good as that. He took scrub orlando teams to the playoffs with the sec best player being Darrel Armstrong. When t Mac finally got on a team with another elite player (Yao Ming ) Ming got injured. He just had bad luck and ended his career because of injuries. A prime t Mac was better then Kobe. Can you see durrant being better then Kobe? The answer is no. That is how good tmac was. So children just stop it.

listen i'm not going to bash t-mac cause i think he's awesome, but you are just incorrect. you can't even spell durant's name.

i've seen all of both of their careers. kd is far more than just an elite scorer, and the western conference he's been competing in is SOOOOO much better than the eastern conference was in the early 2000's. and he couldn't drag ONE team out of the first round. so, look, i love t-mac, and at his peak he was amazing but...

durant is the better, more consistent, more accomplished, more complete player and the gap will only continue to widen assuming he stays healthy.

IKnowHoops
12-25-2013, 10:51 PM
What????

I know I know, but I rate players different than everyone else. I rate purely on Peak. For instance I have Bo Jackson in my top 5 RB of all time, even though he only played 3 half seasons. So again I rate differently. I rate as if I can get there best year and put them on a team, then who do I take kind of scale. I don't put the emphasis on rings that most people do.

FlashBolt
12-25-2013, 10:51 PM
Man screw this. Are most of you forgetting that prime tmac was one year? I dont care when we talk about prime we have to include a period longer than one. Durant has had a far more impressive and has achieved more than mcGrady ever had. Scary part? Dude doesnt get hurt and actually is consistent

IKnowHoops
12-25-2013, 10:54 PM
I know I know, but I rate players different than everyone else. I rate purely on Peak. For instance I have Bo Jackson in my top 5 RB of all time, even though he only played 3 half seasons. So again I rate differently. I rate as if I can get there best year and put them on a team, then who do I take kind of scale. I don't put the emphasis on rings that most people do.

No one thinks that Bo Jackson had a better career than Emmitt Smith, but anyone who has seen both play will tell you Bo Jackson is in a class above Emmitt.

IKnowHoops
12-25-2013, 10:56 PM
Anyone who actually saw t Mac in his prime would take him over durrant. All the other kids on this thread who never saw a prime t Mac would take durrant. It's the age gap. As great as durrant is he was/is not the playmaker tmac was. Durrant is an elite scorer who finally learned how to past this last year. T Mac could score, shoot from anywhere, pass, rebound.... Ect. T Mac was the more complete player. So children stop it. If durrant was better he would of won the finals playing along side of harden, Westbrook and Ibaka. Tmac never had a team half as good as that. He took scrub orlando teams to the playoffs with the sec best player being Darrel Armstrong. When t Mac finally got on a team with another elite player (Yao Ming ) Ming got injured. He just had bad luck and ended his career because of injuries. A prime t Mac was better then Kobe. Can you see durrant being better then Kobe? The answer is no. That is how good tmac was. So children just stop it.

I have both ahead of Kobe.

FlashBolt
12-25-2013, 10:57 PM
I hate when people think just because they say someone hasn't saw this or that and that's why their argument is flawed garbage. Tmac isnt better than durant. Not a better rebounder scorer. Playmaking and defense is the only thing he beats kD at. Kd is a much better scorer than tmac. Dont even argue this nonsense. Kd would be popping 35+ if he played the mentality of players back then. And lets establish one more thing. Durant is already playing better than Kobe was in his first five years. This is not even a debate.. James and durant over kobe and mcgrady anyday. Talk with this nostalgic feeling all you want but that doesn't mean a thing. One seaso. Of dominance does not beat 5 years of insane efficiency and countless awards. Mcgrady would not even be in the same breath of lebron so lets not even go there.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-25-2013, 11:02 PM
Of course Kevin Durant is higher than T-mac. I loved T-mac but he stayed hurt. Nique was involved in EPIC playoff games and dunk contests (When they mattered). Although T-mac was involved in the last real dunk contest.

Dunk contests should never matter when it comes to ranking who is better.

IKnowHoops
12-25-2013, 11:03 PM
Man screw this. Are most of you forgetting that prime tmac was one year? I dont care when we talk about prime we have to include a period longer than one. Durant has had a far more impressive and has achieved more than mcGrady ever had. Scary part? Dude doesnt get hurt and actually is consistent

The thing is, this is a very debatable topic. Both players have statistical arguments to make. Just because he has a single greatest year, doesn't mean he didn't have some other great years. He's a two time scoring champ so if he can win the scoring title and not have a great year at the same time, then thats not saying much for the NBA period. I lean towards Durant, but Tmac was the best sg/sf in the league at one point, going against Iverson,Vince,Kobe,Ray Allen. That is a little better than whats out right now.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-25-2013, 11:03 PM
I'd take Durant over both. But I guess he is below/in between those guys just because of longevity. It's only a matter of years before he passes those guys. Durant will be a top 4 SF all time when he retires.

IKnowHoops
12-25-2013, 11:06 PM
The thing is, this is a very debatable topic. Both players have statistical arguments to make. Just because he has a single greatest year, doesn't mean he didn't have some other great years. He's a two time scoring champ so if he can win the scoring title and not have a great year at the same time, then thats not saying much for the NBA period. I lean towards Durant, but Tmac was the best sg/sf in the league at one point, going against Iverson,Vince,Kobe,Ray Allen. That is a little better than whats out right now.

I don't know though, what is a tuffer cast.

Prime --Iverson,Vince,Kobe,Tmac,Ray Allen
Current-- Lebron,Wade,Durant,Melo,Harden

JordansBulls
12-25-2013, 11:07 PM
Peak years Tmac and Durant surpass Dom. My sg/sf all time list goes like this.

1.Bron
2.Jordan
3.Durant
4.Wade
5.Tmac
6.Kobe
7.Bird
8.Dr.J
9.Wilkins
10.Pippen

Bron's peak isn't better than MJ's. You can say there regular season is close or even, but in the playoffs at there peak MJ's takes it and especially in the finals. Last year had Lebron duplicated his feat in the playoffs and finals than you could say they were even. Hell MJ had at his peak had over 31.5 PER in the season, playoffs and Finals.

Supreme LA
12-26-2013, 12:33 AM
listen i'm not going to bash t-mac cause i think he's awesome, but you are just incorrect. you can't even spell durant's name.

i've seen all of both of their careers. kd is far more than just an elite scorer, and the western conference he's been competing in is SOOOOO much better than the eastern conference was in the early 2000's. and he couldn't drag ONE team out of the first round. so, look, i love t-mac, and at his peak he was amazing but...

durant is the better, more consistent, more accomplished, more complete player and the gap will only continue to widen assuming he stays healthy.

You make all very valid points except for this part here. There is no way that Durant was the more complete player. T-Mac was a great defender, a great passer, more skilled offensively, had better footwork, and he could play in the post. There was nobody with a better triple threat and nobody more dangerous than T-Mac isolated at the top of the key in his prime.

Durant will surpass T-Mac in stats and awards but that has more to do with his health, scoring, the team he plays with, and the style of play in the league today. Yes, Durant will pass him but anybody who remembers T-Mac in his prime would never say that Durant was the more complete player.

IKnowHoops
12-26-2013, 12:57 AM
Bron's peak isn't better than MJ's. You can say there regular season is close or even, but in the playoffs at there peak MJ's takes it and especially in the finals. Last year had Lebron duplicated his feat in the playoffs and finals than you could say they were even. Hell MJ had at his peak had over 31.5 PER in the season, playoffs and Finals.

Your absolutely correct, but the way I come about my list is a combination of Peak Stats and my eye test. So for me its Lebron, but I would never say someone is wrong for taking Mike.

IKnowHoops
12-26-2013, 12:59 AM
I hate when people think just because they say someone hasn't saw this or that and that's why their argument is flawed garbage. Tmac isnt better than durant. Not a better rebounder scorer. Playmaking and defense is the only thing he beats kD at. Kd is a much better scorer than tmac. Dont even argue this nonsense. Kd would be popping 35+ if he played the mentality of players back then. And lets establish one more thing. Durant is already playing better than Kobe was in his first five years. This is not even a debate.. James and durant over kobe and mcgrady anyday. Talk with this nostalgic feeling all you want but that doesn't mean a thing. One seaso. Of dominance does not beat 5 years of insane efficiency and countless awards. Mcgrady would not even be in the same breath of lebron so lets not even go there.

How much of T-mac's career did you see?

thekmp211
12-26-2013, 02:45 AM
You make all very valid points except for this part here. There is no way that Durant was the more complete player. T-Mac was a great defender, a great passer, more skilled offensively, had better footwork, and he could play in the post. There was nobody with a better triple threat and nobody more dangerous than T-Mac isolated at the top of the key in his prime.

Durant will surpass T-Mac in stats and awards but that has more to do with his health, scoring, the team he plays with, and the style of play in the league today. Yes, Durant will pass him but anybody who remembers T-Mac in his prime would never say that Durant was the more complete player.

imo mcgrady was a better ball-handler and passer than durant is right now. they are both inconsistent defenders, but i'd put my money on durant making at least 1 all-defensive team in the future.

in terms of pure basketball skill set, yes mcgrady probably had more ammo in his arsenal than durant does in terms of dribble moves, footwork ect. but to me how that skill translates onto the court is more important. i'll put it this way - i think his impact on both ends of the court is more complete than t-macs was.

ThuglifeJ
12-26-2013, 03:42 AM
The thing is, this is a very debatable topic. Both players have statistical arguments to make. Just because he has a single greatest year, doesn't mean he didn't have some other great years. He's a two time scoring champ so if he can win the scoring title and not have a great year at the same time, then thats not saying much for the NBA period. I lean towards Durant, but Tmac was the best sg/sf in the league at one point, going against Iverson,Vince,Kobe,Ray Allen. That is a little better than whats out right now.

I don't know though, what is a tuffer cast.

Prime --Iverson,Vince,Kobe,Tmac,Ray Allen
Current-- Lebron,Wade,Durant,Melo,Harden

Well for starters its tougher *

Also add- Pierce, Sprewell, maybe Houston, Francis, baby Wade, Bron, and Melo
to Tmacs list.
He was the best among all them at a point.
Durants the best of harden, old Kobe, old wade, and George..with Lebron ahead of him

bagwell368
12-26-2013, 09:12 AM
You make all very valid points except for this part here. There is no way that Durant was the more complete player. T-Mac was a great defender, a great passer, more skilled offensively, had better footwork, and he could play in the post. There was nobody with a better triple threat and nobody more dangerous than T-Mac isolated at the top of the key in his prime.

Durant will surpass T-Mac in stats and awards but that has more to do with his health, scoring, the team he plays with, and the style of play in the league today. Yes, Durant will pass him but anybody who remembers T-Mac in his prime would never say that Durant was the more complete player.

T-Mac was a great defender for about two years. KD is working on his 3rd great defensive year, and he's a kid still.

KD is a lot more efficient shooting the ball as well.

bagwell368
12-26-2013, 09:13 AM
Well for starters its tougher *

Also add- Pierce, Sprewell, maybe Houston, Francis, baby Wade, Bron, and Melo
to Tmacs list.
He was the best among all them at a point.
Durants the best of harden, old Kobe, old wade, and George..with Lebron ahead of him

Sprewell - what's that for? to see if we are paying attention? He SUCKED.

JasonJohnHorn
12-26-2013, 01:15 PM
Yes. Making it to the finals helps.

Durant is a very rare talent. Nique was too, but Nique was on the second tier of All-Star. There are the true franchise players (LeBron, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq) and then there are the guys who teams make their franchise player because they can't get an elite player (Nique, Melo, Carter, King). These guys are ALL amazing, but the Nique's, Melos and Kings of the world just cannot compete with the LBJs, Jordans and Hakeems of the world.


Durant is an elite franchise player. I would have him on the same level as LBJ, Jordan and Dream (even though I think each of them is better than Durant).


As for T-Mac, it's hard to say. Guys like him and Gervin, it's hard to gauge because they were very unluck in terms of the rosters they played on. His stats were inflated playing on poor teams. What would they have looked like if he were playing with Shaq or Dream in his prime? It's hard to say.

nickdymez
12-26-2013, 01:25 PM
Peak years Tmac and Durant surpass Dom. My sg/sf all time list goes like this.

1.Bron
2.Jordan
3.Durant
4.Wade
5.Tmac
6.Kobe
7.Bird
8.Dr.J
9.Wilkins
10.Pippen

I will never, ever, ever, ever take anything you say serious again. I might have to report this and block you.

akagiredsuns
12-26-2013, 01:43 PM
2002-03 T-Mac was epic. Can't really compare KD & T-Mac, as T-Mac had injury riddled years, but please KD surpassing Nique is downright dillusional. He's not there yet. He made it to a Finals good for him, and with an elite PG and one of the best SG in the game today, only managed to win 1 game against Miami in what was supposed to be a memorable Finals. In 5 years, we can come back and see where Durant is at that point, and maybe then, he may probably would have surpassed Wilkins, but certainly not now. Not even close.

nickdymez
12-26-2013, 02:08 PM
Dunk contests should never matter when it comes to ranking who is better.

You missed the point I was trying to make

b@llhog24
12-26-2013, 06:33 PM
Sprewell - what's that for? to see if we are paying attention? He SUCKED.

Lol

Kashmir13579
12-26-2013, 09:25 PM
Neither.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-26-2013, 10:00 PM
You missed the point I was trying to make

You weren't making one.

Supreme LA
12-27-2013, 01:25 AM
T-Mac was a great defender for about two years. KD is working on his 3rd great defensive year, and he's a kid still.

KD is a lot more efficient shooting the ball as well.

Says you. I've never heard about or seen KD being a great defender. If anything, he benefits tremendously in the regard from having a great defensive team in Westbrook, Sefalosha, Ibaka, and Perkins. Seriously man, his entire team is built around him perfectly, much in the way Iverson's 76ers were built around him during their run to the Finals. All KD has to do is score.

IKnowHoops
12-27-2013, 01:26 AM
I will never, ever, ever, ever take anything you say serious again. I might have to report this and block you.

Don't talk about it be about it.

IKnowHoops
12-27-2013, 01:29 AM
Says you. I've never heard about or seen KD being a great defender. If anything, he benefits tremendously in the regard from having a great defensive team in Westbrook, Sefalosha, Ibaka, and Perkins. Seriously man, his entire team is built around him perfectly, much in the way Iverson's 76ers were built around him during their run to the Finals. All KD has to do is score.

Except KD's team is stacked and Iverson's team was weak.

FlashBolt
12-27-2013, 03:29 AM
Stacked? Don't fault someone because they can play team ball. Iverson doesn't know team ball and that's why no one wanted him. Melo was there but they got rid of Iverson asap. Iverson is a great talent but that's all. Low IQ and seems to always find a way to dig a deeper hole for himself.

FlashBolt
12-27-2013, 03:34 AM
McGrady is not better than Durant. Case closed. Durant knows how to win while McGrady knows how to sit on the bench. He has won nothing and has done nothing spectacular. Yes, he was an amazing player but I'm not putting him over someone who has been amazingly great consistently for years. McGrady should be compared to Carmelo; not Durant. When it's all said and done, KD is a top 15 player. McGrady would be lucky to hit top 40

majmarcus
12-27-2013, 03:52 AM
While im not dumping on Durant. I just dont rate him as high as you guys do. I respect his slashing/shooting abilities. But to me, he has no post/post up game and his defense is average at best. His wing span and talent can be far more effective all around if he utilized it. I know he's still developing. But as it stands now, I wouldnt take him over a prime Tmac.

IKnowHoops
12-27-2013, 04:16 AM
Stacked? Don't fault someone because they can play team ball. Iverson doesn't know team ball and that's why no one wanted him. Melo was there but they got rid of Iverson asap. Iverson is a great talent but that's all. Low IQ and seems to always find a way to dig a deeper hole for himself.

Not faulting anyone, but KD supporting cast is worlds ahead of Iverson's. When Westy went down, so did KD's great efficiency. It was more like Iverson's.

IKnowHoops
12-27-2013, 04:17 AM
McGrady is not better than Durant. Case closed. Durant knows how to win while McGrady knows how to sit on the bench. He has won nothing and has done nothing spectacular. Yes, he was an amazing player but I'm not putting him over someone who has been amazingly great consistently for years. McGrady should be compared to Carmelo; not Durant. When it's all said and done, KD is a top 15 player. McGrady would be lucky to hit top 40

How much Tmac did u see?

ThuglifeJ
12-27-2013, 01:18 PM
McGrady is not better than Durant. Case closed. Durant knows how to win while McGrady knows how to sit on the bench. He has won nothing and has done nothing spectacular. Yes, he was an amazing player but I'm not putting him over someone who has been amazingly great consistently for years. McGrady should be compared to Carmelo; not Durant. When it's all said and done, KD is a top 15 player. McGrady would be lucky to hit top 40

This response makes you look 15 years old. You are a kid.

Lol at comparing Tmac to Memo
Lol at "doing nothing spectacular"
Lol at Durant top 15 already


I'm sorry but your entire response was stupid and obnoxious. Everything about it. "Case closed" after first sentence. Shut up. Learn how to form a respectable argument.

The "all said and done" thing is stupid too. Back in tmacs prime there was no limit where he'd end up.. you could say back then "all said and done, goat". Considering he had a larger skill set than Jordan.


I'm not even a big tmac fan either. I always liked Vince and wanted him to be the best not his cousin

ThuglifeJ
12-27-2013, 01:23 PM
YESSS. I went to Flashbolts profile. "My favorite team is the Thunder". "I'm 15 years old basketball is my favorite"

MAKES MORE SENSE NOW YOU BIASED ****

IKnowHoops
12-27-2013, 04:55 PM
McGrady is not better than Durant. Case closed. Durant knows how to win while McGrady knows how to sit on the bench. He has won nothing and has done nothing spectacular. Yes, he was an amazing player but I'm not putting him over someone who has been amazingly great consistently for years. McGrady should be compared to Carmelo; not Durant. When it's all said and done, KD is a top 15 player. McGrady would be lucky to hit top 40

Anyone who has watched TMAC through his Prime would not being throwing this much disrespect to him.

Supreme LA
12-27-2013, 05:00 PM
Except KD's team is stacked and Iverson's team was weak.

Yes, KD's team is stacked in comparison to Iverson's team. The point I was trying to make is that KD is not a great defender and never was. He benefits from having a great defensive team just as AI did. AI didn't have to play any defense and he just focused on scoring. He was allowed to just play the passing lanes. KD had defensive stoppers and a tremendous amount of help at the rim. It also doesn't hurt to have Westbrook flying all over the court trapping guys.

I was speaking to whoever said KD is a better defender than T-Mac was because that is completely untrue.

Supreme LA
12-27-2013, 05:01 PM
Stacked? Don't fault someone because they can play team ball. Iverson doesn't know team ball and that's why no one wanted him. Melo was there but they got rid of Iverson asap. Iverson is a great talent but that's all. Low IQ and seems to always find a way to dig a deeper hole for himself.

You totally missed the point. Such ignorance.

Supreme LA
12-27-2013, 05:03 PM
McGrady is not better than Durant. Case closed. Durant knows how to win while McGrady knows how to sit on the bench. He has won nothing and has done nothing spectacular. Yes, he was an amazing player but I'm not putting him over someone who has been amazingly great consistently for years. McGrady should be compared to Carmelo; not Durant. When it's all said and done, KD is a top 15 player. McGrady would be lucky to hit top 40

So much disrespect. I bet you're like 17 yrs old.

Nobody is saying KD won't surpass T-Mac. It's obvious he will as long as he stays healthy. Someone was trying to make the claim that KD is a more complete player than T-Mac and that just isn't true.

Supreme LA
12-27-2013, 05:05 PM
While im not dumping on Durant. I just dont rate him as high as you guys do. I respect his slashing/shooting abilities. But to me, he has no post/post up game and his defense is average at best. His wing span and talent can be far more effective all around if he utilized it. I know he's still developing. But as it stands now, I wouldnt take him over a prime Tmac.

A healthy and durable T-Mac you mean. Either way, I completely agree. Finally, someone who understands the nuances of the game.

TheIlladelph16
12-27-2013, 05:12 PM
Meh. I'd probably have him below both as of right now, but within the next year or two he is going to go blowing right by them especially if he wins a title.

I'm curious to see when fans start putting the pressure on Durant to win one ala Lebron. It's about this time that people really started to get on Lebron for not having won one yet.

Supreme LA
12-27-2013, 05:16 PM
Meh. I'd probably have him below both as of right now, but within the next year or two he is going to go blowing right by them especially if he wins a title.

I'm curious to see when fans start putting the pressure on Durant to win one ala Lebron. It's about this time that people really started to get on Lebron for not having won one yet.

I really don't think he will face that sort of pressure. He's the NBA's darling. Also, i don't know if anybody really thinks KD has a great chance at winning a title as long as Lebron is still playing with the Heat.

bagwell368
12-27-2013, 05:43 PM
While im not dumping on Durant. I just dont rate him as high as you guys do. I respect his slashing/shooting abilities. But to me, he has no post/post up game and his defense is average at best. His wing span and talent can be far more effective all around if he utilized it. I know he's still developing. But as it stands now, I wouldnt take him over a prime Tmac.

In this era of the NBA lots of guys (most) don't have post up games - that's not a solid reason. KD didn't play any D at all his first few years, so on average he's average or below, but he started getting more serious about it and has some real good years.

All I know is that KD's 5 year prime exceeds McGrady, and KD is almost certainly not in his prime yet - or not done being in his prime at least.

How long was TMac prime BTW - seriously, list the years when he was a top 10 player in the NBA? I count 3 - maybe 4. Durant has 4, working on 5 this year.

If I specified top 5 player, TMac is 1 for sure, 3 total at best - perhaps. Durant has 3 working on 4 w/o a doubt. How can any objective person say that TMac's peak is better than Durants?

Durant just turned 25 in September. Was TMac a more all around player - probably, but Durant is a very dominant and efficient scorer - way ahead of TMac. TMac had a .564% TS in his best year. Durant has one year UNDER .564 TS% in his career!! All his other years (6) are .577 to .647 (.647, .628, .610, .607, .589, .577) - that's an average of .607 since his rookie year.

Take off TMac's worst two shooting years, and his TS% is about .523. That's a significant difference. Durant's the 11th most efficient (per TS) non Center shooter of all time as of today (21st overall). TMac doesn't make the top 250, and probably not the top 350 either.

bagwell368
12-27-2013, 05:47 PM
I really don't think he will face that sort of pressure. He's the NBA's darling. Also, i don't know if anybody really thinks KD has a great chance at winning a title as long as Lebron is still playing with the Heat.

He'd have a better one if the beard didn't get moved due to the Perk deal and signing.

tredigs
12-27-2013, 06:48 PM
Says you. I've never heard about or seen KD being a great defender. If anything, he benefits tremendously in the regard from having a great defensive team in Westbrook, Sefalosha, Ibaka, and Perkins. Seriously man, his entire team is built around him perfectly, much in the way Iverson's 76ers were built around him during their run to the Finals. All KD has to do is score.
Gotta question how much you've really seen of the Thunder.

KD is a very good defender. He's always active on that end and his IQ of team defensive ball is going up every year I watch 'em. Shows up statistically in his defensive RAPM (top 15 in NBA), opponents PER (11.4. Best on OKC) and so far this year opponents are averaging 0.53 points per possession against him in ISO's. That's tops in the NBA for a guy who plays his level of minutes (0.81 ppp overall, also elite).

Then there's the 5 agp and 8 rpg. Both near the peak at his position. He's about as well rounded a player that there is.

ChiSox219
12-27-2013, 08:01 PM
Gotta question how much you've really seen of the Thunder.

KD is a very good defender. He's always active on that end and his IQ of team defensive ball is going up every year I watch 'em. Shows up statistically in his defensive RAPM (top 15 in NBA), opponents PER (11.4. Best on OKC) and so far this year opponents are averaging 0.53 points per possession against him in ISO's. That's tops in the NBA for a guy who plays his level of minutes (0.81 ppp overall, also elite).

Then there's the 5 agp and 8 rpg. Both near the peak at his position. He's about as well rounded a player that there is.

Yup, and this is why I say KD is underrated. Most people dont recognize him as an all-time great talent. Someone even said KD has no post game...

majmarcus
12-27-2013, 09:05 PM
In this era of the NBA lots of guys (most) don't have post up games - that's not a solid reason. KD didn't play any D at all his first few years, so on average he's average or below, but he started getting more serious about it and has some real good years.

All I know is that KD's 5 year prime exceeds McGrady, and KD is almost certainly not in his prime yet - or not done being in his prime at least.

How long was TMac prime BTW - seriously, list the years when he was a top 10 player in the NBA? I count 3 - maybe 4. Durant has 4, working on 5 this year.

If I specified top 5 player, TMac is 1 for sure, 3 total at best - perhaps. Durant has 3 working on 4 w/o a doubt. How can any objective person say that TMac's peak is better than Durants?

Durant just turned 25 in September. Was TMac a more all around player - probably, but Durant is a very dominant and efficient scorer - way ahead of TMac. TMac had a .564% TS in his best year. Durant has one year UNDER .564 TS% in his career!! All his other years (6) are .577 to .647 (.647, .628, .610, .607, .589, .577) - that's an average of .607 since his rookie year.

Take off TMac's worst two shooting years, and his TS% is about .523. That's a significant difference. Durant's the 11th most efficient (per TS) non Center shooter of all time as of today (21st overall). TMac doesn't make the top 250, and probably not the top 350 either.[/QUOTE]

Dude, with all due respect to your stat heavy argument. Many of your points were dull and baseless. Because lots of guys doesnt have post up games, there's no need for a post up game? What type of reasoning is that?? What kinda logic is that based on?? Lol, that, to me, makes all the more sense to ADD a post game to your skill set so you'd be a multi dimensional player...MORE COMPLETE. He'll separate himself from the majority by having a full arsenal. Different ways to attack and score. On defense, focus on ON BALL defense not just help defense most of the time.

As far as prime years are concerned. The point Isnt how long they were in their prime years sir. Its about how good/great they were during their prime. Take Anfernee (Penny) Hardaway for example. He was definitely ONE of the Nba's elite players for about a 2-3 yr period maybe 4yrs. Although it was short lived, Id take a prime Penny over most if not all these pgs today. Why? Because that fella was fun to watch and a helluva player. He did what he did very well for that stretch. Tracey Mcgrady, when healthy and at his best was right there with Kobe. An argument could be made for either one as the best. But whoever was 1 the other was 1A.

So all the numbers youre researching tells me one thing and one thing only. It tells me your "Google" is working. Durant IMO has a lot of development before he can surpass TMac prime yrs.

IKnowHoops
12-27-2013, 10:07 PM
In this era of the NBA lots of guys (most) don't have post up games - that's not a solid reason. KD didn't play any D at all his first few years, so on average he's average or below, but he started getting more serious about it and has some real good years.

All I know is that KD's 5 year prime exceeds McGrady, and KD is almost certainly not in his prime yet - or not done being in his prime at least.

How long was TMac prime BTW - seriously, list the years when he was a top 10 player in the NBA? I count 3 - maybe 4. Durant has 4, working on 5 this year.

If I specified top 5 player, TMac is 1 for sure, 3 total at best - perhaps. Durant has 3 working on 4 w/o a doubt. How can any objective person say that TMac's peak is better than Durants?

Durant just turned 25 in September. Was TMac a more all around player - probably, but Durant is a very dominant and efficient scorer - way ahead of TMac. TMac had a .564% TS in his best year. Durant has one year UNDER .564 TS% in his career!! All his other years (6) are .577 to .647 (.647, .628, .610, .607, .589, .577) - that's an average of .607 since his rookie year.

Take off TMac's worst two shooting years, and his TS% is about .523. That's a significant difference. Durant's the 11th most efficient (per TS) non Center shooter of all time as of today (21st overall). TMac doesn't make the top 250, and probably not the top 350 either.

This is why I have Durant ahead of Mcgrady. If they had the same TS% or same efficiency then I would go with Mcgrady because he is a little bit more versatile, but at the end of the day its about high levels of efficient production and regardless of what TMAC does better, Durant is a more efficient producer so I got to go with him. I love both players and rank them both all time much higher than anyone on these boards.

bagwell368
12-28-2013, 12:13 AM
Dude, with all due respect to your stat heavy argument. Many of your points were dull and baseless. Because lots of guys doesnt have post up games, there's no need for a post up game? What type of reasoning is that?? What kinda logic is that based on?? Lol, that, to me, makes all the more sense to ADD a post game to your skill set so you'd be a multi dimensional player...MORE COMPLETE.

Firstly, you didn't quote my post correctly. Secondly, lots of guys don't have post up games these days. James doesn't. KD doesn't. OK, and that means what in reality? If they were Centers or PF's it might have an impact, but they are SF's. Name me all the starting SF's in the league today with an accomplished post up game. Name me how many players have been more efficient on offense the past 5 years (including this one)?


He'll separate himself from the majority by having a full arsenal. Different ways to attack and score.

Gee thanks for the insight. He's 25. Larry Bird, one of the great swiss army knife players of all time is his idol. Let's see what happens. His efficiency is enormous as he is now, far ahead of TMac already (did you have any comments on that BTW?). Maybe you ought to address my points instead of going off on a topic that just points up that this era is different from 40 or 25 years ago.


As far as prime years are concerned. The point Isnt how long they were in their prime years sir.

Are you the OP? Because I don't recall having read that. What he said was "on the all-time list":


* Well on the WS/48 list Durant smokes both of them.
* He's also got a higer WS/48 in the playoffs than regular season (Wilkins is pathetic in that way in particular, and TMac - meh).
* How about leading the NBA in points scored in a season? Zero for the other two, four for Durant, and it'll be 5 if he continues to lead the league as he is now. Only Wilt and Jordan at 7 each in a row have more than Durant with 4 in a row... jeez, that's pretty good.
* How about rebounds per game? Durant has the lead there too.
* Finals appearances? 1 for Durant goose eggs for the other two. Conference Finals? 2 for Durant, again big goose eggs for the other two.


Its about how good/great they were during their prime. Take Anfernee (Penny) Hardaway for example. He was definitely ONE of the Nba's elite players for about a 2-3 yr period maybe 4yrs. Although it was short lived, Id take a prime Penny over most if not all these pgs today. Why? Because that fella was fun to watch and a helluva player. He did what he did very well for that stretch. Tracey Mcgrady, when healthy and at his best was right there with Kobe. An argument could be made for either one as the best. But whoever was 1 the other was 1A.

Kobe? A guy with a very long career on mostly great teams, who could and did play great D in the playoffs, but was a volume shooting player that couldn't tolerate any other alphas on his team. You want to compare TMac to Kobe? They have less in common than you seem to think.

We are talking Mr. OP about Durant, TMac, and Wilkins, so can we set aside Kobe?

In the past 5 years Durant has destroyed both TMac and Wilkins for a 5 year contiguous peak. He obviously lacks an entire career. Don't we count his domination? His superior playoff appearances to the stink bombs those guys laid with regularity? He's short on career but trounces them on peak.

If the thread was just about TMac and Wilkins it would be a much shorter thread, with less debate. But since a career consists of more than years played, or win shares won - that's why this going on.

Your memory on Anfernee is off a bit. He had one great year, two very good years. He's no match peak for Durant, TMac or Wilkins.


So all the numbers youre researching tells me one thing and one thing only. It tells me your "Google" is working. Durant IMO has a lot of development before he can surpass TMac prime yrs.

I wrote more subjective posts earlier in the thread. Since I'm confident in my POV I'm hitting it from a number of angles, perhaps you are not used to anything but subjective off the cuff opinions from couch potatoes - I don't know, and I don't care. Respond or don't.

Durant as a complete entity on the court beats TMac and the vast majority of NBA players all time in a 5 year window because of his awesome shooting. If he only shot as good as Kobe, or worse like AI, then he'd be a menace, but, his shooting is better than Bird's, his D already better than anything Larry did after 1985, his passing and D rebounding will probably never be as good.

I don't generally like shooters in particular volume shooters, but Durant is a different player than that type. If you don't see it and acknowledge it I don't know what you're looking at.

Chronz
12-28-2013, 03:13 PM
T-Mac was a great defender for about two years. KD is working on his 3rd great defensive year, and he's a kid still.
Tmac began his career as a defender, highly doubt he only had 2 years of it.


KD is a lot more efficient shooting the ball as well.
In an easier defensive environment. What about overall offensive efficiency? Tmac was less turnover prone, and if you look at the defensive rules in place (Zones+HC) its actually quite remarkable how efficient he was. It may not be on Durant level but the gap shrinks given the context.

FlashBolt
12-29-2013, 02:49 AM
T-Mac was a great defender for about two years. KD is working on his 3rd great defensive year, and he's a kid still.
Tmac began his career as a defender, highly doubt he only had 2 years of it.


KD is a lot more efficient shooting the ball as well.
In an easier defensive environment. What about overall offensive efficiency? Tmac was less turnover prone, and if you look at the defensive rules in place (Zones+HC) its actually quite remarkable how efficient he was. It may not be on Durant level but the gap shrinks given the context.

But Durant is still better is what you're saying... Pointless.

Chronz
12-29-2013, 02:55 AM
But Durant is still better is what you're saying... Pointless.

Im saying its debatable. Not the home run he thinks. My opinion is that it depends on the make up of the team.

Meaze_Gibson
12-29-2013, 08:55 AM
After this year Durant will be ranked higher because he will have accumulated more awards and such. However, If we are talking peak play and ability, McGrady was better. Durant has better efficiency because he is on a far better efficient team than Mcgrady has ever had.

I saw Durant struggle his first year in the playoffs (age 21) Mcgrady at 21 was killing it without hesitation. Minus the shooting touch, I'm willing to say that Durant now is just reaching the type of ability that mcgrady had at 22. Just now is durant able to score and playmake for others. Mcgrady beeen doin that with less talented squad and with less turnovers. You be lookin at the boxscore like how he pull 8 assists outta that squad?

With all that said if you strip Durant of the westbrook, ibaka, harden, you can tell that talent wise, he is right on par with the Mcgrady's and Wilkins type of players.

bagwell368
12-29-2013, 09:45 AM
Tmac began his career as a defender, highly doubt he only had 2 years of it.


In an easier defensive environment. What about overall offensive efficiency? Tmac was less turnover prone, and if you look at the defensive rules in place (Zones+HC) its actually quite remarkable how efficient he was. It may not be on Durant level but the gap shrinks given the context.

I've rethought the defense a bit. TMac was excellent a few years, very good another 3-4. Durant has been between excellent in his 2.5 best years. So slight overall edge to TMac, but Durant has time to catch up.

TMac wasn't a particularly efficient shooter in his own time. Probably closer to Durant than the raw numbers say, but, still a good way behind - certainly he's a lot further behind on shooting efficiency than Durant is on D.

Chronz
12-29-2013, 01:09 PM
After this year Durant will be ranked higher because he will have accumulated more awards and such. However, If we are talking peak play and ability, McGrady was better. Durant has better efficiency because he is on a far better efficient team than Mcgrady has ever had.

I saw Durant struggle his first year in the playoffs (age 21) Mcgrady at 21 was killing it without hesitation. Minus the shooting touch, I'm willing to say that Durant now is just reaching the type of ability that mcgrady had at 22. Just now is durant able to score and playmake for others. Mcgrady beeen doin that with less talented squad and with less turnovers. You be lookin at the boxscore like how he pull 8 assists outta that squad?

With all that said if you strip Durant of the westbrook, ibaka, harden, you can tell that talent wise, he is right on par with the Mcgrady's and Wilkins type of players.
Yea, I have a feeling that TMac is better at facing a defense designed to stop him whereas Durant is better at optimizing possessions where the defense is focused on other players.

Sadly a recipe of a great team is that they have multiple good players, so the ability to thrive to a high degree alongside those players is actually a greater advantage than having 1 guy who can will inferior teammates to a win.

That said, we never really got to see Tmac in similarly friendly situations.

waveycrockett
12-29-2013, 01:28 PM
At their peak I would probably take T-MAC. He was on a level that I think only LeBron/Kobe have reached but over their careers for sure it's going to KD if not now then very soon.

thekmp211
12-29-2013, 10:11 PM
Gotta question how much you've really seen of the Thunder.

KD is a very good defender. He's always active on that end and his IQ of team defensive ball is going up every year I watch 'em. Shows up statistically in his defensive RAPM (top 15 in NBA), opponents PER (11.4. Best on OKC) and so far this year opponents are averaging 0.53 points per possession against him in ISO's. That's tops in the NBA for a guy who plays his level of minutes (0.81 ppp overall, also elite).

Then there's the 5 agp and 8 rpg. Both near the peak at his position. He's about as well rounded a player that there is.

didn't know he'd been that impressive this year. he certainly profiles as an elite defender at the 3 with his size, length and athleticism. great to see it coming together.