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View Full Version : The Knicks, David Lee, Zach Randolph and Amare Stoudemire



JasonJohnHorn
12-22-2013, 12:01 PM
Going back to the summer of 2010, when LBJ hit the free agent marker, the Knicks were shedding contracts to make room for LeBron.

Hindsight is 20/20, but there were going to be several power forwards on the marker: Amare and Bosh were at the top of the list, but the Knicks already had Lee.

Had the Knicks kept Lee, they would have still had an All-Star power forward, and one without a history of injuries.

I will freely admit that Amare in his prime was a better player than Lee and Randolph, but at the time the Suns were even unwilling to give this guy a contract long-term and they have the best rehab guys in the league.

The Knicks passed up on Z-Bo and Lee in favour of Amare. Though I realize they were clearing cap space for LBJ, they did have room to sign two players, so keeping either Z-Bo (who was moved in 2008) or Lee (who was moved 2010).

Considering how well Lee and Z-Bo are playing now, would the Knicks have been better off keep Lee or Z-Bo? Or would they still be treading water? Would either have made that big a difference?

RipCity32
12-22-2013, 12:04 PM
I remember at the time thinking it was stupid to trade Lee to make room for another PF. Granted Amare was a way better player then but still that's a lot of money for a position that you already had covered with a 20-10 guy.

waveycrockett
12-22-2013, 12:11 PM
Hindsight is 20/20 at the time everybody was calling Lee's contract horrendous and anybody would laugh if you said you would take Z-BO over Amare. What they should have done is let D'Antoni and Walsh handle there own business. They probably would have landed CP3.

Fireworld
12-22-2013, 01:19 PM
I think teams need to keep what ever decent talent they have and try to build chemistry with that group. That's how teams win. Improve within.

blahblahyoutoo
12-22-2013, 01:20 PM
didn't zbo play for the Nix for a couple of seasons?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-22-2013, 02:14 PM
a lot better

mzgrizz
12-22-2013, 03:17 PM
didn't zbo play for the Nix for a couple of seasons?

I don't think he did play but was acquired by the Grizz before he played. However I could be wrong and he was there a season. Knicks fans could tell better.

TheNumber37
12-22-2013, 03:51 PM
Any other team save the Knicks would have just kept Lee. Similar production, better passer, younger, healtheir and could have been had for cheaper.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-22-2013, 04:05 PM
I don't think he did play but was acquired by the Grizz before he played. However I could be wrong and he was there a season. Knicks fans could tell better.

he played a lot with the Knicks....I still remember those airballs :laugh2:

D-Leethal
12-22-2013, 04:26 PM
If we keep Melo and retool around him and eventually build a contender, the Amare signing was worth it. Melo wasn't coming to play with Lee. Obviously right now that looks laughable but in my eyes, saying "was it worth it" is contingent around what we can do with Melo. They are all dominos that were started with STAT.

b_russ
12-22-2013, 04:43 PM
Memphis turned Randolph's career and head around. Having him next to Carmello he'd still be one of the most hated players in the league and I doubt ever as good as he's been playing next to Gasol.

smood999
12-22-2013, 05:07 PM
Any other team save the Knicks would have just kept Lee. Similar production, better passer, younger, healtheir and could have been had for cheaper.

Kept Lee and continued winning 23 games a yr...same thing was happening when Randolph was starting here. Lee is only one yr younger than Amare. Amare was 27 when he was signed here. Let's not forget how the Knicks went from a 23 win team to a .500 team going from Lee to Amare. Also, keeping Lee most likely meant no Melo and no Chandler. When you're winning 23 games a yr for a decade, changes need to happen.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-22-2013, 05:47 PM
If we keep Melo and retool around him and eventually build a contender, the Amare signing was worth it. Melo wasn't coming to play with Lee. Obviously right now that looks laughable but in my eyes, saying "was it worth it" is contingent around what we can do with Melo. They are all dominos that were started with STAT.

Are you serious? really worth it?

Knicks are in the bottom end of the league and have the worst contract in the NBA.

You gotta be kidding me with this stuff

beasted86
12-22-2013, 06:03 PM
Amare was a much better #1 option than Lee.

Lee only works if they are still able to get Chandler and Carmelo. In that scenario, yes, they are a better team.

I'm going to disregard ZBO because maturity wise he needed to get traded around and find a disciplined coach and organization before he could truly become a viable #1 option.

Kashmir13579
12-22-2013, 06:32 PM
Some Knicks fans truly believe 'Melo came to New York to play with Amar'e... That Amar'e was the deciding factor.. How laughably naive..

29$JerZ
12-22-2013, 06:33 PM
Amare was a much better #1 option than Lee.

Lee only works if they are still able to get Chandler and Carmelo. In that scenario, yes, they are a better team.

I'm going to disregard ZBO because maturity wise he needed to get traded around and find a disciplined coach and organization before he could truly become a viable #1 option.

That's how it is.

Amar'e was a better player than Lee in year 1 of his deal. He also was still relevant enough as a star to make Melo consider coming to NY. Lee by himself wasn't going to bring any one here.

Knicks are still stupid for giving Amar'e that contract when I believe his next best offer was a 3year deal from Phoenix but it did bring some good things to NY.

29$JerZ
12-22-2013, 06:34 PM
Some Knicks fans truly believe 'Melo came to New York to play with Amar'e... That Amar'e was the deciding factor.. How laughably naive..

He pretty much did but Money and job security was clearly his number 1 motivation for coming here above all else.

Kashmir13579
12-22-2013, 06:42 PM
He pretty much did but Money and job security was clearly his number 1 motivation for coming here above all else.

I have never found that to be the case.

THE MTL
12-22-2013, 07:36 PM
Amare was a much better #1 option than Lee.

Lee only works if they are still able to get Chandler and Carmelo. In that scenario, yes, they are a better team.

I'm going to disregard ZBO because maturity wise he needed to get traded around and find a disciplined coach and organization before he could truly become a viable #1 option.

That's how it is.

Amar'e was a better player than Lee in year 1 of his deal. He also was still relevant enough as a star to make Melo consider coming to NY. Lee by himself wasn't going to bring any one here.

Knicks are still stupid for giving Amar'e that contract when I believe his next best offer was a 3year deal from Phoenix but it did bring some good things to NY.

Summed it up perfectly.

ohreally
12-22-2013, 07:38 PM
Memphis turned Randolph's career and head around. Having him next to Carmello he'd still be one of the most hated players in the league and I doubt ever as good as he's been playing next to Gasol.

If they'd kept Lee and Randolph they wouldn't have Melo, most likely. And that's the true question.
Knicks were starting a season after the Garden sex escapade, Curry sulking, Marbury gone bat..it, Gallo not even playing yet, Lee hurt, Crawford pretty much strapped to the bench and on the block, and they were above 500. When Randolph played with a healthy Lee they looked very good together.

The team included Jamal Crawford, Nate Robinson, Jared Jeffries, Wilson Chandler, Gallo, and other pieces. Handled differently they could have got at least a future pick for Marbury before burning that bridge. Jerome James, Eddy Curry, and Jeffries would have expired turning into free agent money. They wouldn't have had more of their own draft picks. They would have made the playoffs. And they still probably would have been able to get Jrue Holiday in the upcoming draft.

No way anyone can convince me that they would not have grown and traded themselves into a much better team than this current crew by now.

What they had wasn't perfect by any means, but there was a wide assortment of offensive talent and some decent defenders, besides two strong rebounders.

They would have, or, okay, should have become a force by this time.

D-Leethal
12-22-2013, 08:09 PM
Are you serious? really worth it?

Knicks are in the bottom end of the league and have the worst contract in the NBA.

You gotta be kidding me with this stuff

Did you even read my post? I can tell you have trouble with reading comprehension so I will restate it. I said saying its worth it will be determined what we end up doing for the long haul around Melo. No Amare, no Melo. Thats my point. This one horrible season right now isn't the only determination if "it was worth it".

That can be determined later if we keep Melo and build a new team around him that can contend in 2015. If so, the Amare signing was worth it because it directly led to the best player we had since Ewing and built a long term contender around him. If Melo bails and we enter another rebuild, it wasn't worth it for one 54 win season and the rest garbage. You can't say it wasn't worth it just because right here and now we suck. 2013-14 season isn't the sole determining factor here.

D-Leethal
12-22-2013, 08:12 PM
Zbo went on to get traded I believe twice or 3x in one offseason (to Timberwolves, than LAC, than Memphis) if I'm not mistaken. It took him going Rudy Gay, "wow every team thinks I suck and trade me for garbage year after year" status to finally figure it out and learn how to be a winning pro.

D-Leethal
12-22-2013, 08:15 PM
I have never found that to be the case.

You don't know for sure just like I don't know for sure. But theres way more direct supporting evidence to say he did than he didn't. Amare was playing like an MVP and a close friend of Melo's. Melo has said on numerous occasions he came to play with Amare, he gives Amare credit for starting it off and he said he wanted to come help finish what Amare started. LaLa has had interviews saying she found out the trade went through watching TV with her kids and the first thing her son said was "Daddy is going to play with Amare". Amare was also dating Ciara at the time who is great friends with LaLa. Your basing it off nothing but your personal biased opinion of Melo's personality and you think thats enough to go directly against what Melo himself has said over and over.

Tyson said he came here to play with those guys too and bailed on GSW at the 11th hour after a deal was in place to do it.

D-Leethal
12-22-2013, 08:23 PM
There were a ton of factors that went into Melo's decision - NY spotlight, max money. Those could be satisfied elsewhere - like Brooklyn. Amare, a close friend, playing like an MVP and openly recruiting him was the determining factor IMO. Thats not to say he WOULDN'T have come here, but considering DEN wanted to send him to BK because they had the better trade package, I think if both teams were awful the allure of the new franchise in Brooklyn would have been enough for him to stop playing hardball and accept the trade and extension to BK.

In his eyes NY was more of a sure thing to win because Amare was at 25-8, brought NY back out from the gutter and playing his *** off and Brooklyn won 12 games that year and was very deep in the gutter. That doesn't mean it worked out like he wanted it to, but that was the perception at the time. If Knicks were winning 23 games again with Lee as our top gun whose to say he wouldn't have just said **** it and accepted the preferred trade package.

ohreally
12-22-2013, 09:10 PM
Zbo went on to get traded I believe twice or 3x in one offseason (to Timberwolves, than LAC, than Memphis) if I'm not mistaken. It took him going Rudy Gay, "wow every team thinks I suck and trade me for garbage year after year" status to finally figure it out and learn how to be a winning pro.

I think you're conflating Q and Zach. And Zach was always productive, just had a bad rep.

And if Lee or Randolph were featured as much as Amare was in his first year pre-Melo, either one could have put up similar numbers.

JasonJohnHorn
12-23-2013, 11:28 AM
Lee is better when there is a better first option on the team.

That year, I would have have taken Lee over Amare for two reason.
First: He would have been cheaper.
Second: He didn't have a history with injuries.


The second is the most important. I want to stress again the the Suns have THE BEST medical staff in the league! They got Nash healthy and playing the best basketball of his career in hit smid-30's! Shaq, in his autobiography, said that before he got to Phoenix he though his career was over, but their medical staff got him playing at a high level again.


If this staff, known as the best in the league, looks at Amare and says: "We can't do anything with this guy, don't give him a long-term deal." then NOBODY should give him a long terms deal.


Lee was a little younger, a little cheaper, and healthier.

Amare did have a better season in the first year of their respective contracts, but Amare's long-term health should have been the key issue.

As for ZBo, I will agree that having he and Melo on the same team would have been a problem. They are both guys you give the ball to in order for them to score. Neither is a great passer. You don't want too many 20+ point scorers who want 16+ shots a night on your roster. But Lee is a solid passer and having Melo and Lee together, I think, would have been better for Melo.


That said, prime Amare is better than prime Lee.

North Yorker
12-23-2013, 11:38 AM
didn't zbo play for the Nix for a couple of seasons?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh2fn01cngg

mzgrizz
12-23-2013, 11:38 PM
he played a lot with the Knicks....I still remember those airballs :laugh2:

My bad. Didn't follow them so I just remember being really glad to get him on the Grizz.

Guppyfighter
12-24-2013, 12:27 AM
The kicker was taking Billups and than after accepting his team option, waiving him with the amnesty and not using the amnesty on Amare.

sunsfan88
12-24-2013, 12:33 AM
Lol Knicks.

sunsfan88
12-24-2013, 12:36 AM
Knicks are so stupid. There's reason that the Suns let him go.

The Suns have the best medical staff in the world and didn't want Amare back for the max...that should have been a big enough hint.

DreamShaker
12-24-2013, 01:02 AM
I remember the Knicks had Curry and Randolph playing together. Yikes.

Knicks honestly did what they had to do, and that is sign Amare. They had put all the eggs in the 2010 basket, and if they signed ZBO or kept Lee, they might have made Spike Lee's head explode. Knicks had to have SOMEBODY to get excited about. Amare was the only star they could get.

slashsnake
12-24-2013, 01:10 AM
Going back to the summer of 2010, when LBJ hit the free agent marker, the Knicks were shedding contracts to make room for LeBron.

Hindsight is 20/20, but there were going to be several power forwards on the marker: Amare and Bosh were at the top of the list, but the Knicks already had Lee.

Had the Knicks kept Lee, they would have still had an All-Star power forward, and one without a history of injuries.

I will freely admit that Amare in his prime was a better player than Lee and Randolph, but at the time the Suns were even unwilling to give this guy a contract long-term and they have the best rehab guys in the league.

The Knicks passed up on Z-Bo and Lee in favour of Amare. Though I realize they were clearing cap space for LBJ, they did have room to sign two players, so keeping either Z-Bo (who was moved in 2008) or Lee (who was moved 2010).

Considering how well Lee and Z-Bo are playing now, would the Knicks have been better off keep Lee or Z-Bo? Or would they still be treading water? Would either have made that big a difference?


Or they could have passed on trading for Eddy Curry and Wilson Chandler and had Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge instead.

effen5
12-24-2013, 02:32 AM
In hindsight, I would have gutted the roster and play for a high draft pick the next few years. That team constructed now is just a mess.

effen5
12-24-2013, 02:35 AM
Or they could have passed on trading for Eddy Curry and Wilson Chandler and had Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge instead.

God Paxson was genius with that trade but at the same time made huge mistakes with those picks.

We picked up Thabo and Omer if I'm not mistaken with the Knicks picks ( I think we traded up using the 2nd rounders? Someone correct me), and the first rounder ended up being Aldridge in which we traded to Portland for Tyrus Thomas and Viktor Khryapa.

Idiot!!

Eddy Curry also ****ed up. Reinsdorf wanted him to take a DNA test in which if he had a heart condition where if he can't play anymore, Reinsdorf was willing to pay him a certain salary for the rest of his life. Instead he said no, gave us no choice and traded him and now he's eating cheeseburgers somewhere...probably broke.