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View Full Version : Bigger Gap: (Lebron vs Paul George) or (Durant vs Melo)



JordansBulls
12-19-2013, 11:59 AM
Which is the greater gap between the players. Is Lebron greater than George to a greater extent than Durant is to Melo?

cmellofan15
12-19-2013, 12:10 PM
Off of instinct, without looking back at the stats so far this season, I wanna say LeBron and Paul George simply because LeBron is by far the best player and even with George's recent emergence I think that gap stands much larger. I will factor in the stats in my next post but Melo hasn't lost a step, just seems like he isn't motivated, so the gap between he and KD isn't very different this year, especially since KD's percentages have came back down to earth this season.

D-Leethal
12-19-2013, 12:16 PM
LeBron because he is that far ahead of the pack, including KD.

mjm07
12-19-2013, 12:20 PM
LBJ and PG.

WARRIORS@GR
12-19-2013, 12:21 PM
Durant vs Melo.

SlimKid
12-19-2013, 12:32 PM
Interesting question. Got to go with LBJ, but there is a big gap between both sets of players.

IKnowHoops
12-19-2013, 12:34 PM
This could go either way. The only thing is, I wouldn't want Melo as the leader of my Squad, while I would be happy to have the other 3. Melo can only be my #2 at best. I still want to go with Bron, George though because Bron is just all by himself. But KD is too so I don't know.

FraziersKnicks
12-19-2013, 12:37 PM
LeBron and PG quite easily, and I still think there's a sizeable gap between KD and Melo.

That's just a testament to how much better LeBron is than everyone in this league.

2-ONE-5
12-19-2013, 12:38 PM
Durant v Melo.

Melo only knows how to play hero/iso ball and has never been much of a passer or a leader.

Tony_Starks
12-19-2013, 01:25 PM
KD and Melo.

xxplayerxx23
12-19-2013, 01:27 PM
Easily Lebron and PG. It really isn't close Lebron to durant is a huge gap. Durant to melo is a nice gap but it's not as big as Lebron gap to everybody in the NBA

TylerSL
12-19-2013, 02:38 PM
easily Lebron and George, there is even a larger gap between Lebron and Durant than their is between George and Melo

WadeKobe
12-19-2013, 03:07 PM
According to WS48 and WP48, this is Durant over Melo by a long shot.

elledaddy
12-19-2013, 03:39 PM
Durant v Melo.

Melo only knows how to play hero/iso ball and has never been much of a passer or a leader.


I just don't get what is ppl fixation with Melo being a " passer" bcuz Lebron is. Melo isn't nor have he ever claimed to be a " passer" so why keep bringing it up? He scores and rebounds, why isn't that good? Don't you guys get tired of saying the same **** over and over again? I get it, Melo likes iso basketball so much that he makes every coach he has played for run iso basketball. I get it, Melo isn't a passer.
Kevin Durant = career APG - 3.2 ( PASSER)
Carmelo Anthony = career APG - 3.1 ( Not a passer)



PS - And what is he stupid? Like if George Karl ran a play besides Iso, Melo wouldn't know what to do? You think DAntonio ONLY ran iso plays? When Mike Woodson runs a play that's not Iso does he take Melo out? What does he" only know how to play iso" mean?

ManRam
12-19-2013, 03:45 PM
That's tough...and this is coming from a guy who seemingly is more cautious to anoint PG than most.

But I do think it's LeBron and George. KD is much better than Melo, but LeBron is just a once-in-a-generational talent and PG is a guy playing very well, but has a LONG way to go to get even close.

nickdymez
12-19-2013, 03:50 PM
I just don't get what is ppl fixation with Melo being a " passer" bcuz Lebron is. Melo isn't nor have he ever claimed to be a " passer" so why keep bringing it up? He scores and rebounds, why isn't that good? Don't you guys get tired of saying the same **** over and over again? I get it, Melo likes iso basketball so much that he makes every coach he has played for run iso basketball. I get it, Melo isn't a passer.
Kevin Durant = career APG - 3.2 ( PASSER)
Carmelo Anthony = career APG - 3.1 ( Not a passer)

Honestly its just this site. No one here likes Melo AT ALL, even knick fans. They view him as being selfish and his advanced stats arent that good i guess.

Honestly there isnt a huge gap between any of these players. What people on this site fail to realize is that players play to thier skills. Carmelo is the best pure scorer in the game, easily. Durant is right there behind him. Lebron and PG have sort of similar skillsets, PG is more fluid and pure than Lebron is. Lebron depends a great deal on his physical gifts. BUt people here on this continue to look at Lebron like a god. He is the best player in the league, but it isnt what people on this site make it out to be.

nickdymez
12-19-2013, 03:54 PM
That's tough...and this is coming from a guy who seemingly is more cautious to anoint PG than most.

But I do think it's LeBron and George. KD is much better than Melo, but LeBron is just a once-in-a-generational talent and PG is a guy playing very well, but has a LONG way to go to get even close.

What do you mean. What does Paul George have to do to get on Lebrons level, and why does he have so far to go. PG is a better pure shooter than Lebron, not who has the better fg%. PG can get to the rim pretty good, not as easily as Lebron though. Lebron is a better passer, but honestly i would just say he is a "Smarter" passer. Lebron doesnt force bad passes, he lets the game come to him rather well. Lebron is playing on a pretty stacked team with 2 other superstars on it. Granger hasn't played and I would say Hibbert is a superstar. Could you explain why you feel Lebron is that much better than PG without using advanced stats as an argument, unless the gap is significant.

mightybosstone
12-19-2013, 04:05 PM
I don't really like the way this thread is formulated. Why not just have a legit discussion of the 4-5 best SFs in the league? Also, wouldn't it make more sense to compare the gap between Lebron and Durant (1 vs. 2) to the gap between Durant and George (2 vs. 3)?. It's just such an odd way to have this kind of a discussion.

But based on the weird premise of the thread, I'd say the gap between Lebron and George is greater than that of Durant and Melo. George isn't nearly the playmaker that Lebron is, and while he's a very efficient scorer, no player in the league touches Lebron in terms of USG% and scoring efficiency.

Statistically, the gap between Lebron and George seems closer on paper. But as players, Melo is closer to Durant than George is to Lebron. Melo is obviously nowhere near as efficient as Durant, but neither guy is a great playmaker, Melo is still a top 5 scorer and an excellent rebounder. If I had to rank all four players and their gaps between them, it would look something like this....

Lebron>>>Durant>>George>Melo

nickdymez
12-19-2013, 04:15 PM
I don't really like the way this thread is formulated. Why not just have a legit discussion of the 4-5 best SFs in the league? Also, wouldn't it make more sense to compare the gap between Lebron and Durant (1 vs. 2) to the gap between Durant and George (2 vs. 3)?. It's just such an odd way to have this kind of a discussion.

But based on the weird premise of the thread, I'd say the gap between Lebron and George is greater than that of Durant and Melo. George isn't nearly the playmaker that Lebron is, and while he's a very efficient scorer, no player in the league touches Lebron in terms of USG% and scoring efficiency.

Statistically, the gap between Lebron and George seems closer on paper. But as players, Melo is closer to Durant than George is to Lebron. Melo is obviously nowhere near as efficient as Durant, but neither guy is a great playmaker, Melo is still a top 5 scorer and an excellent rebounder. If I had to rank all four players and their gaps between them, it would look something like this....

Lebron>>>Durant>>George>Melo

Thats my point. Why is Lebron ">>>" better than Durant. If you were to say "Lebron > Durant", cool. But ">>>" better? I dont get that at all. It makes it seem like Lebron is playing in the NBA and Durant and everyone else is playing at a college level. And that will never be the case in basketball unless they start allowing cyborgs to play. And Lebron isnt a Cyborg.

FraziersKnicks
12-19-2013, 04:51 PM
What do you mean. What does Paul George have to do to get on Lebrons level, and why does he have so far to go. PG is a better pure shooter than Lebron, not who has the better fg%. PG can get to the rim pretty good, not as easily as Lebron though. Lebron is a better passer, but honestly i would just say he is a "Smarter" passer. Lebron doesnt force bad passes, he lets the game come to him rather well. Lebron is playing on a pretty stacked team with 2 other superstars on it. Granger hasn't played and I would say Hibbert is a superstar. Could you explain why you feel Lebron is that much better than PG without using advanced stats as an argument, unless the gap is significant.

How is PG the better shooter? Using the whole of last season (playoffs included) and the 25 odd games this season these are their numbers from mid range and three.

LeBron: 41.2% mid range, 40.0% 3 point
PG: 38.8% mid range, 36.7% 3 point

Then when you take into account LeBron shoots 69.9% in the paint (75.4% at the rim) and PG shoots 53.6% in the paint (60.6% at the rim) there is literally no argument you can make for PG being the better shooter.

LeBron is a far superior passer to PG as well, that's where they're not very close at all. He almost doubles him up in AST% and possesses a superior basketball IQ which allows him to hit players at the exact right time. Being a "smarter" passer is part of being a better passer in itself. PG has a pretty awful AST/TO ratio of 1.3 whereas LeBron's is 2.2.

The argument of LeBron playing on a better team is useless as well since the Pacers have the better record. If Bosh is considered a superstar then David West should be as well. Those two are producing at an extremely similar level.

Why can't advanced stats be used as an argument? They're usually a measure of how great a player is. LeBron has PG comfortably beaten in every significant advanced statistical category. His PER is nearly 7 points higher (29.9 compared to 23.4), his TS% is 9% higher (68.1 compared to 59.2), his WS/48 is 6 points higher (29.4 compared to 23.4). Those are all significant differences.

When you consider the fact PG has been playing the best month and a half of basketball he's ever player and LeBron is having a "down season" by his standards (I still have no idea why there's a thread about LeBron falling off as the best player in the league...) and he still has him beaten in every aspect of the game it's clear to see how big the gap is between them.

At the end of the day though it's crystal clear you absolutely despise LeBron and will do whatever it takes to discredit him so it's pointless having this debate with you.

WARRIORS@GR
12-19-2013, 07:04 PM
At the end of the day though it's crystal clear you absolutely despise LeBron and will do whatever it takes to discredit him so it's pointless having this debate with you.This.

Kinglorious
12-19-2013, 07:10 PM
Paul George is great and one of the top players in the league, but LeBron is LeBron.

jerellh528
12-19-2013, 07:21 PM
lebron>durant>>pg>melo

barreleffact
12-19-2013, 07:23 PM
This year as far as impact gores, the larger gap is between Durant and Melo. I voted incorrectly. Both PG and LBJ have top records and the Knicks are struggling because they are the Knicks, but Melo hasn't exactly performed at a superstar level at all.

Peak v Peak though, The larger gap is between LBJ and PG. Melo was once a pretty efficient player and not a big step down from Durant.

barreleffact
12-19-2013, 07:27 PM
lebron>durant>>pg>melo

I disagree as for this season. Either LBJ >> over Durant due to him taking a decline relative to last season or more preferred:
LBJ>KD>PG>>Melo. Melo has dint nothing THIS SEASON to compare to those players record wise(yes, I am aware this is a team game).

mightybosstone
12-19-2013, 07:34 PM
Thats my point. Why is Lebron ">>>" better than Durant. If you were to say "Lebron > Durant", cool. But ">>>" better? I dont get that at all. It makes it seem like Lebron is playing in the NBA and Durant and everyone else is playing at a college level. And that will never be the case in basketball unless they start allowing cyborgs to play. And Lebron isnt a Cyborg.

Lebron is just a superior basketball player to Durant in almost every feasible way. I'd give Durant an edge in shooting, and that's about it. Lebron is a superior defender and distributor and a far more efficient scorer. He's not just >>> than Durant. He's >>> than the entire league. Durant is still substantially better than George, who is marginally better than Melo.

barreleffact
12-19-2013, 07:37 PM
^basketball is a 2 way game. Melo is comparable to PG in PG's current system/role, but is far behind him defensively

kjoke
12-19-2013, 07:37 PM
How is PG the better shooter? Using the whole of last season (playoffs included) and the 25 odd games this season these are their numbers from mid range and three.

LeBron: 41.2% mid range, 40.0% 3 point
PG: 38.8% mid range, 36.7% 3 point

Then when you take into account LeBron shoots 69.9% in the paint (75.4% at the rim) and PG shoots 53.6% in the paint (60.6% at the rim) there is literally no argument you can make for PG being the better shooter.

LeBron is a far superior passer to PG as well, that's where they're not very close at all. He almost doubles him up in AST% and possesses a superior basketball IQ which allows him to hit players at the exact right time. Being a "smarter" passer is part of being a better passer in itself. PG has a pretty awful AST/TO ratio of 1.3 whereas LeBron's is 2.2.

The argument of LeBron playing on a better team is useless as well since the Pacers have the better record. If Bosh is considered a superstar then David West should be as well. Those two are producing at an extremely similar level.

Why can't advanced stats be used as an argument? They're usually a measure of how great a player is. LeBron has PG comfortably beaten in every significant advanced statistical category. His PER is nearly 7 points higher (29.9 compared to 23.4), his TS% is 9% higher (68.1 compared to 59.2), his WS/48 is 6 points higher (29.4 compared to 23.4). Those are all significant differences.

When you consider the fact PG has been playing the best month and a half of basketball he's ever player and LeBron is having a "down season" by his standards (I still have no idea why there's a thread about LeBron falling off as the best player in the league...) and he still has him beaten in every aspect of the game it's clear to see how big the gap is between them.

At the end of the day though it's crystal clear you absolutely despise LeBron and will do whatever it takes to discredit him so it's pointless having this debate with you.

Totally agree with everthing. Funny yo think that PER alone, if you were to take the difference between Lebron and George, it would equal the difference better George and Miles Plumlee

tredigs
12-19-2013, 07:47 PM
It's KD over Melo by quite a bit. PGs an elite 2 way talent, and KD is a 2 way player who is a +defensively and top ten in NBA history offensively. Lebron's #1, but the idea that he's leaps and bounds ahead of KD simply isn't the case anymore. And with PG's rise on the offensive to supplement his top 5 wing D, Melo is no longer in any of their tiers. It's pretty simple, but can be backed up by plenty of advanced metrics if people feel like getting into it.


Totally agree with everthing. Funny yo think that PER alone, if you were to take the difference between Lebron and George, it would equal the difference better George and Miles Plumlee

PER doesn't understand PG's defensive impact or Melo's lack there of.

barreleffact
12-19-2013, 07:53 PM
How is PG the better shooter? Using the whole of last season (playoffs included) and the 25 odd games this season these are their numbers from mid range and three.

LeBron: 41.2% mid range, 40.0% 3 point
PG: 38.8% mid range, 36.7% 3 point

Then when you take into account LeBron shoots 69.9% in the paint (75.4% at the rim) and PG shoots 53.6% in the paint (60.6% at the rim) there is literally no argument you can make for PG being the better shooter.

LeBron is a far superior passer to PG as well, that's where they're not very close at all. He almost doubles him up in AST% and possesses a superior basketball IQ which allows him to hit players at the exact right time. Being a "smarter" passer is part of being a better passer in itself. PG has a pretty awful AST/TO ratio of 1.3 whereas LeBron's is 2.2.

The argument of LeBron playing on a better team is useless as well since the Pacers have the better record. If Bosh is considered a superstar then David West should be as well. Those two are producing at an extremely similar level.

Why can't advanced stats be used as an argument? They're usually a measure of how great a player is. LeBron has PG comfortably beaten in every significant advanced statistical category. His PER is nearly 7 points higher (29.9 compared to 23.4), his TS% is 9% higher (68.1 compared to 59.2), his WS/48 is 6 points higher (29.4 compared to 23.4). Those are all significant differences.

When you consider the fact PG has been playing the best month and a half of basketball he's ever player and LeBron is having a "down season" by his standards (I still have no idea why there's a thread about LeBron falling off as the best player in the league...) and he still has him beaten in every aspect of the game it's clear to see how big the gap is between them.

At the end of the day though it's crystal clear you absolutely despise LeBron and will do whatever it takes to discredit him so it's pointless having this debate with you.

He said PG is a better PURE shooter. It took PG less time to get his shooting touch, and it took LBJ a number of years to refine his. LBJ is a better shooter right now, but certainly is NOT a pure shooter by any stretch of the word. That's all work which is what you want anyway.

todu82
12-19-2013, 08:31 PM
Lebron to George.

bucketss
12-19-2013, 09:23 PM
Honestly its just this site. No one here likes Melo AT ALL, even knick fans. They view him as being selfish and his advanced stats arent that good i guess.

Honestly there isnt a huge gap between any of these players. What people on this site fail to realize is that players play to thier skills. Carmelo is the best pure scorer in the game, easily. Durant is right there behind him. Lebron and PG have sort of similar skillsets, PG is more fluid and pure than Lebron is. Lebron depends a great deal on his physical gifts. BUt people here on this continue to look at Lebron like a god. He is the best player in the league, but it isnt what people on this site make it out to be.

lol can you tell me one skill boy george is better than lebron in other than shooting? lol, by more fluid you mean "looks cooler" right? because i noticed thats how you judge players, pretty much who ever looks cooler you like more.

bucketss
12-19-2013, 09:29 PM
What do you mean. What does Paul George have to do to get on Lebrons level, and why does he have so far to go. PG is a better pure shooter than Lebron, not who has the better fg%. PG can get to the rim pretty good, not as easily as Lebron though. Lebron is a better passer, but honestly i would just say he is a "Smarter" passer. Lebron doesnt force bad passes, he lets the game come to him rather well. Lebron is playing on a pretty stacked team with 2 other superstars on it. Granger hasn't played and I would say Hibbert is a superstar. Could you explain why you feel Lebron is that much better than PG without using advanced stats as an argument, unless the gap is significant.

if bosh is a superstar than im sorry but so is west and hibbert.

i remember you saying that lebron isn't on prime kobes level, the fact you think boy george is on lebrons level but lebron isn't on kobes level is so laughable.

kjoke
12-19-2013, 09:52 PM
It's KD over Melo by quite a bit. PGs an elite 2 way talent, and KD is a 2 way player who is a +defensively and top ten in NBA history offensively. Lebron's #1, but the idea that he's leaps and bounds ahead of KD simply isn't the case anymore. And with PG's rise on the offensive to supplement his top 5 wing D, Melo is no longer in any of their tiers. It's pretty simple, but can be backed up by plenty of advanced metrics if people feel like getting into it.



PER doesn't understand PG's defensive impact or Melo's lack there of.

how much of Geroge's defensive abilities do you atrribute to Indiana and how much of Carmelo's do you attribute to the nature in Denver and New York

and please consider George's sample size as well

koreancabbage
12-19-2013, 10:01 PM
He said PG is a better PURE shooter. It took PG less time to get his shooting touch, and it took LBJ a number of years to refine his. LBJ is a better shooter right now, but certainly is NOT a pure shooter by any stretch of the word. That's all work which is what you want anyway.

why does he need to be a pure shooter - his jumper is one of the best its almost automatic - i.e. why would he take bad shots. any basketball player can launch a shot at the net.

offensively Lebron is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Durant, Melo, and PG.

Durant, PG and Melo are pure shooters/ scorers.

If Lebron wants to score he will. Passing is a lost art.

Only Lebron, of the 4, has the shot and passing ability (both skill and timing)

ByShine
12-19-2013, 10:12 PM
i dont even see how you can compare lebron and george

george is more like t-mac than he is to lebron
different type of players

ManRam
12-19-2013, 10:22 PM
how much of Geroge's defensive abilities do you atrribute to Indiana and how much of Carmelo's do you attribute to the nature in Denver and New York

and please consider George's sample size as well

Yeah. I think PG is a very good defender, but I'm not 100% certain he's this all-word defensive talent that people tend to think of him as.

And he has about 25 games under his belt as an "elite" offensive talent. Because last year he was far from that, sans a few playoff games. I think he might have it in him, but I think he'll regress just a tad from here on out (as he was doing prior to last night's 2nd half).

b@llhog24
12-19-2013, 10:28 PM
Bron and George.

THE MTL
12-19-2013, 10:55 PM
Paul George will be GOAT. According to the psd. Smh. I guess next thread lets compare Paul George to michael jordan and magic johnson and oscar robinson

IKnowHoops
12-20-2013, 12:29 AM
Honestly its just this site. No one here likes Melo AT ALL, even knick fans. They view him as being selfish and his advanced stats arent that good i guess.

Honestly there isnt a huge gap between any of these players. What people on this site fail to realize is that players play to thier skills. Carmelo is the best pure scorer in the game, easily. Durant is right there behind him. Lebron and PG have sort of similar skillsets, PG is more fluid and pure than Lebron is. Lebron depends a great deal on his physical gifts. BUt people here on this continue to look at Lebron like a god. He is the best player in the league, but it isnt what people on this site make it out to be.

What the heck are you talking about. In one breath you say there is not a huge gap between any of these players, then in the next breath there is a huge gap between these players in scoring ability in favor of the most inefficient scorer of them all? Wow, you are clueless, and your eye test is garbage.

bucketss
12-20-2013, 01:47 PM
What the heck are you talking about. In one breath you say there is not a huge gap between any of these players, then in the next breath there is a huge gap between these players in scoring ability in favor of the most inefficient scorer of them all? Wow, you are clueless, and your eye test is garbage.

judges players based off swag lol, not even pacer fans would concluded that george is near lebrons level.

TylerSL
12-23-2013, 12:59 PM
lebron>durant>>pg>melo

More like Lebron>>>Durant>>PG>Melo

nickdymez
12-23-2013, 02:13 PM
What the heck are you talking about. In one breath you say there is not a huge gap between any of these players, then in the next breath there is a huge gap between these players in scoring ability in favor of the most inefficient scorer of them all? Wow, you are clueless, and your eye test is garbage.

Whatever advanced stat guy. I judge the game based on the fact that I played it for so long. You watch it and formulate mathematical formulas and nerd ****. Dweeb. These are ****in NBA all stars, nobody in the league is >>>>>>>>>> better than any other all star. Jordan was the only player in modern history that was that much ahead of his peers. Get your mouth from around Lebrons meat for one second and realize that. Lebron IS the best player in the league, he isnt some ****in superhero leaps and bounds ahead of anybody in this league. Play basketball instead of thinking of formulas for it....

blahblahyoutoo
12-23-2013, 03:03 PM
I just don't get what is ppl fixation with Melo being a " passer" bcuz Lebron is. Melo isn't nor have he ever claimed to be a " passer" so why keep bringing it up? He scores and rebounds, why isn't that good? Don't you guys get tired of saying the same **** over and over again? I get it, Melo likes iso basketball so much that he makes every coach he has played for run iso basketball. I get it, Melo isn't a passer.
Kevin Durant = career APG - 3.2 ( PASSER)
Carmelo Anthony = career APG - 3.1 ( Not a passer)



PS - And what is he stupid? Like if George Karl ran a play besides Iso, Melo wouldn't know what to do? You think DAntonio ONLY ran iso plays? When Mike Woodson runs a play that's not Iso does he take Melo out? What does he" only know how to play iso" mean?

he doesn't make players around him better like jordan, lebron do.

KnicksorBust
12-23-2013, 03:05 PM
Melo is not THAT much better than Kd.

FlashBolt
12-23-2013, 03:12 PM
Melo is better than PG. Put PG on that Knicks team and let's see what happens. Roy Hibbert, Lance Stephenson(triple double threat), David West? Defensive beast of a team and a solid bench. Who in the NYK does Melo rely on? I don't think PG is as good as everyone says he is. Much of the team's success is because of their style of play. It's not PG who carries this team. It's PG and Roy Hibbert. Who carries NYK? Only one guy.

ThaDubs
12-23-2013, 03:14 PM
Paul George is becoming severely overrated.

Chronz
12-23-2013, 03:15 PM
Lebron depends a great deal on his physical gifts. BUt people here on this continue to look at Lebron like a god. He is the best player in the league, but it isnt what people on this site make it out to be.

I missed the part where there is a legit reason for your critique. Why would anyone care about reliance of physical traits when what matters is the impact on the game? Being more skilled but less dominant isnt a good thing.

ThaDubs
12-23-2013, 03:21 PM
Whatever advanced stat guy. I judge the game based on the fact that I played it for so long. You watch it and formulate mathematical formulas and nerd ****. Dweeb. These are ****in NBA all stars, nobody in the league is >>>>>>>>>> better than any other all star. Jordan was the only player in modern history that was that much ahead of his peers. Get your mouth from around Lebrons meat for one second and realize that. Lebron IS the best player in the league, he isnt some ****in superhero leaps and bounds ahead of anybody in this league. Play basketball instead of thinking of formulas for it....

What's wrong with advanced statistics? They are 100% correct. And they PROVE that LeBron IS leaps and bounds above everyone else (besides KD).

ThaDubs
12-23-2013, 03:24 PM
Maybe I'm just being a homer but I still think Curry is better than PG (at least for the time being). If Curry's numbers remain pretty much the same throughout the season he will be one of three players to ever put up 24+ pts, 4+ rbs, and 9+ ast per game in a season. The two others being Jerry West and Oscar Robertson.

naps
12-23-2013, 03:49 PM
What's wrong with advanced statistics? They are 100% correct. And they PROVE that LeBron IS leaps and bounds above everyone else (besides KD).

Don't waste your time. Haven't you been familiar with his posts? It's all Kobe is god and LeBron sucks in his world; rest of his world is a empty space.

tredigs
12-23-2013, 03:52 PM
how much of Geroge's defensive abilities do you atrribute to Indiana and how much of Carmelo's do you attribute to the nature in Denver and New York

and please consider George's sample size as well

The defensive system and willingness to play within it give PG a higher defensive floor then Melo, and his natural length/speed/athleticism + defensive instincts and activity on that end are what give him the higher ceiling and far higher consistency.

I'm not one to think 25 games is too small of a sample to think it might just be some random good stretch of games. We saw it for periods last season and into the playoffs, and with his level of work ethic + age/experience it's a standard enough rise for a young star. Even if he goes through more ups and downs than the rest of the group for the remainder of this year, we know that he's capable of it for long stretches and eventually that means it's more likely than not he will just build on this base for the next few years as he hits his prime/peak.

I've seen all I need to to know that barring injury he's hit the point of not looking back.

@thadubs ^, but this isn't about Curry.

Pacerlive
12-23-2013, 04:15 PM
Maybe I'm just being a homer but I still think Curry is better than PG (at least for the time being). If Curry's numbers remain pretty much the same throughout the season he will be one of three players to ever put up 24+ pts, 4+ rbs, and 9+ ast per game in a season. The two others being Jerry West and Oscar Robertson.
Offensively speaking I can see how Curry would be better but defensively the Pacers get worse when PG leaves while the same can't be said of Curry. PG also has a similar PER as Curry while holding his opponent to a lower PER than Curry which isn't even bringing up the fact that PG is always on the best offensive player on the opposing team.

tredigs
12-23-2013, 04:39 PM
Offensively speaking I can see how Curry would be better but defensively the Pacers get worse when PG leaves while the same can't be said of Curry. PG also has a similar PER as Curry while holding his opponent to a lower PER than Curry which isn't even bringing up the fact that PG is always on the best offensive player on the opposing team.

He always guards the best offensive wing, or the best player?

nickdymez
12-23-2013, 06:52 PM
I missed the part where there is a legit reason for your critique. Why would anyone care about reliance of physical traits when what matters is the impact on the game? Being more skilled but less dominant isnt a good thing.

WTF is up with you man? What kind of "legit reason" do you want from me. You cant tell by watching the game that Lebron depends mostly on physical abilities? Are there advanced stats to gauge that? Are you ok? I know you guys have your little advanced stat/Lebron love gang that singled me out for not being onboard with the movement. But you have to attack me everytime? I didnt bash Lebron at all. You guys get all mad at people for not loving him or advanced stats as much as you do. ****. What legit reason do you want?

nickdymez
12-23-2013, 06:54 PM
Don't waste your time. Haven't you been familiar with his posts? It's all Kobe is god and LeBron sucks in his world; rest of his world is a empty space.


Poor attempt at trolling bro. Look at my post, none of my post remotely praise Kobe as a god. On this site, if you like Kobe as a player, your praising him.

nickdymez
12-23-2013, 06:58 PM
what's wrong with advanced statistics? They are 100% correct. And they prove that lebron is leaps and bounds above everyone else (besides kd).

100%? Smh

jerellh528
12-23-2013, 07:05 PM
What's wrong with advanced statistics? They are 100% correct. And they PROVE that LeBron IS leaps and bounds above everyone else (besides KD).

They lack context is probably the biggest problem. Also as of today they are correct, just like box score stats were correct back in the day. Soon there will be more formulas to determine a players abilities that may contradict today's formulas. Stats are a good tool if used correctly, but in no way are an end all. People on this site love to throw around stats to pretend to seem like they have basketball knowledge. But it's probably those same people who never put a ball through a hoop before.

Pacerlive
12-23-2013, 07:06 PM
He always guards the best offensive wing, or the best player?
IT can depend on matchups but last year he was the intial defender on the most plays in the NBA (1444). For teams with more than one good/great player he will guard the best wing but if he will often switch depending on need. Before Rose injury he swtiched on him in the first game.

IF teams go small ball he will guard Melo as the pf or Josh Smith last year but he has guarded Jameer Nelson, Steph Curry and Derrick Rose at times so he really does get used alot on the best player like I said.
If you want the synergy list here it is.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000208-sports-and-racing-nba/67094748

Basically no one was comes remotely close to defending the number of plays as Paul George did last year and of the small forwards he was the only one to record over 1000 plays and he surpassed that by 444 more plays.

ManningToTyree
12-23-2013, 07:11 PM
The answer is lebron and anyone

tredigs
12-23-2013, 07:46 PM
IT can depend on matchups but last year he was the intial defender on the most plays in the NBA (1444). For teams with more than one good/great player he will guard the best wing but if he will often switch depending on need. Before Rose injury he swtiched on him in the first game.

IF teams go small ball he will guard Melo as the pf or Josh Smith last year but he has guarded Jameer Nelson, Steph Curry and Derrick Rose at times so he really does get used alot on the best player like I said.
If you want the synergy list here it is.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000208-sports-and-racing-nba/67094748

Basically no one was remotely close to defending the number of plays as Paul George did last year and of the small forwards he was the only one to record over 1000 plays and he surpassed that by 444 more plays.

Nice rundown, thanks. It was a legit question.

Hawkeye15
12-23-2013, 08:00 PM
They lack context is probably the biggest problem. Also as of today they are correct, just like box score stats were correct back in the day. Soon there will be more formulas to determine a players abilities that may contradict today's formulas. Stats are a good tool if used correctly, but in no way are an end all. People on this site love to throw around stats to pretend to seem like they have basketball knowledge. But it's probably those same people who never put a ball through a hoop before.

agree on the most part, but I would venture to say nearly everyone here has at least played recreationally, and over 50% organized. Just a guess though haha.

nickdymez
12-23-2013, 08:26 PM
They lack context is probably the biggest problem. Also as of today they are correct, just like box score stats were correct back in the day. Soon there will be more formulas to determine a players abilities that may contradict today's formulas. Stats are a good tool if used correctly, but in no way are an end all. People on this site love to throw around stats to pretend to seem like they have basketball knowledge. But it's probably those same people who never put a ball through a hoop before.

Thats my whole point here. These guys on this site have deemed advanced stats as the only way to tell if someone knows basketball or not. If you dont present an argument with advanced stats as the basis, then they talk down to you and act like you know nothing about the sport. There are even a few "Coaches" and "ex-players" here that try to add some legitimicy to the whole thing.

tredigs
12-23-2013, 08:37 PM
The best posters watch a ton of games, play, and understand how to put context to advanced stats + are willing to evolve their opinions based on new info they come up on.

Pacerlive
12-23-2013, 08:41 PM
Thats my whole point here. These guys on this site have deemed advanced stats as the only way to tell if someone knows basketball or not. If you dont present an argument with advanced stats as the basis, then they talk down to you and act like you know nothing about the sport. There are even a few "Coaches" and "ex-players" here that try to add some legitimicy to the whole thing.
I use advance stats to validate my point simply because I don't think many people watch Pacer games. A lot people look at Paul George drtg or any other measure and think he is just a good defender and not elite. They don't take into account who he is defending or how much and how the scheme is dependent on him.

The guy basically had 1444 plays to Lebrons 800 and some on defense yet people see Lebron on some steals that lead to dunks on sportscenter and think he has a legitimate grip for not winning the DPOY award last year.

nickdymez
12-23-2013, 08:41 PM
The best posters watch a ton of games, play, and understand how to put context to advanced stats + are willing to evolve their opinions based on new info they come up on.

I dont see that in their post. At least the posters that PSD deem to be the best posters appear to never watch a single game to analyze a player at all.

nickdymez
12-23-2013, 08:42 PM
I use advance stats to validate my point simply because I don't think many people watch Pacer games. A lot people look at Paul George drtg or any other measure and think he is just a good defender and not elite. They don't take into account who he is defending or how much and how the scheme is dependent on him.

The guy basically had 1444 plays to Lebrons 800 and some on defense yet people see Lebron on some steals that lead to dunks on sportscenter and think he has a legitimate grip for not winning the DPOY award last year.

Exactly.

Yanks All Day
12-23-2013, 08:47 PM
It really seems like people want desperately for someone to be on LeBron's level, and the fact is that no one has gotten there yet. LeBron has shot under 50% only 7 times this year. Think about that. He's scoring 25 ppg on 60% shooting and only taking 15 shots per game. That's unheard of, and we're trying to compare someone to him?

Paul George is getting the Derrick Rose overrated treatment of a few years ago. The Pacers are the best team in the league overall. Hibbert, West, and Stephenson alone are a 3-4-5 combination that could be paired with any guards and win 50 games. Put LeBron on the Pacers and they might not have lost a game yet. PG, like Rose, is an up and coming superstar that is going to get plenty of MVP attention because of his team's success. PG isn't on LBJ's level in any category other than free throw shooting. LeBron's a better scorer, passer, and play-maker by a long distance. Rebounding and defense wise, PG is closer to LeBron than the other categories, but there's still a wide gap. LBJ can put up huge rebounding numbers when called on and is the most versatile defender in basketball to the point where he can guard 4 positions very effectively. PG is a very good player on the best team in basketball, but he's not on LeBron's level yet.

Kevin Durant is significantly better than Carmelo Anthony, but he's not in that other universe like LeBron is.

Alayla
12-23-2013, 10:54 PM
LeBron and PG quite easily, and I still think there's a sizeable gap between KD and Melo.

That's just a testament to how much better LeBron is than everyone in this league.

Lol this

bucketss
12-23-2013, 11:02 PM
Whatever advanced stat guy. I judge the game based on the fact that I played it for so long. You watch it and formulate mathematical formulas and nerd ****. Dweeb. These are ****in NBA all stars, nobody in the league is >>>>>>>>>> better than any other all star. Jordan was the only player in modern history that was that much ahead of his peers. Get your mouth from around Lebrons meat for one second and realize that. Lebron IS the best player in the league, he isnt some ****in superhero leaps and bounds ahead of anybody in this league. Play basketball instead of thinking of formulas for it....

so why do you think the gap between prime kobe and lebron now is so huge? lol, the life of a biased fan, the eye test and stats show us lebron is the superior player.

bucketss
12-23-2013, 11:07 PM
WTF is up with you man? What kind of "legit reason" do you want from me. You cant tell by watching the game that Lebron depends mostly on physical abilities? Are there advanced stats to gauge that? Are you ok? I know you guys have your little advanced stat/Lebron love gang that singled me out for not being onboard with the movement. But you have to attack me everytime? I didnt bash Lebron at all. You guys get all mad at people for not loving him or advanced stats as much as you do. ****. What legit reason do you want?

you pretty much said george relies on skill, even tho he is 6'10 and has crazy reach, and lebron is an unskilled player who relies on his body.. fact is, george is a better shooter, skill wise, thats it. he cant dribble like lebron, he cant pass or run the point like lebron,

FlashBolt
12-24-2013, 12:54 AM
WTF is up with you man? What kind of "legit reason" do you want from me. You cant tell by watching the game that Lebron depends mostly on physical abilities? Are there advanced stats to gauge that? Are you ok? I know you guys have your little advanced stat/Lebron love gang that singled me out for not being onboard with the movement. But you have to attack me everytime? I didnt bash Lebron at all. You guys get all mad at people for not loving him or advanced stats as much as you do. ****. What legit reason do you want?

you pretty much said george relies on skill, even tho he is 6'10 and has crazy reach, and lebron is an unskilled player who relies on his body.. fact is, george is a better shooter, skill wise, thats it. he cant dribble like lebron, he cant pass or run the point like lebron,

In what aspect of shooting? Numbers point to lebron this year.

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 01:34 AM
so why do you think the gap between prime kobe and lebron now is so huge? lol, the life of a biased fan, the eye test and stats show us lebron is the superior player.

Kobe? You heat fans are way more obsessed with Kobe than Laker fans, And its not even close. Dont think i mentioned Kobe as a basis for my argument in here.

bucketss
12-24-2013, 02:24 AM
Kobe? You heat fans are way more obsessed with Kobe than Laker fans, And its not even close. Dont think i mentioned Kobe as a basis for my argument in here.

you're arguments are weak, you think kobe is worlds better than lebron, to the point he doesn't merit a comparison, but you think george and lebron are on the same level. lol.

ThaDubs
12-24-2013, 02:37 AM
you're arguments are weak, you think kobe is worlds better than lebron, to the point he doesn't merit a comparison, but you think george and lebron are on the same level. lol.

He thinks Kobe is better than LeBron? Wtf? Who thinks that anymore lol

Chronz
12-24-2013, 04:36 AM
WTF is up with you man? What kind of "legit reason" do you want from me. You cant tell by watching the game that Lebron depends mostly on physical abilities? Are there advanced stats to gauge that? Are you ok?
There is no misunderstanding with what you are saying, Im asking for the relevance of that estimation. Stop thinking everything is about stats, you're paranoia has gotten the better of you yet again, thats why you and your ilk never call out individual posts/members, just vague labels.


I know you guys have your little advanced stat/Lebron love gang that singled me out for not being onboard with the movement. But you have to attack me everytime? I didnt bash Lebron at all. You guys get all mad at people for not loving him or advanced stats as much as you do. ****. What legit reason do you want?
LOL

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 10:28 AM
There is no misunderstanding with what you are saying, Im asking for the relevance of that estimation. Stop thinking everything is about stats, you're paranoia has gotten the better of you yet again, thats why you and your ilk never call out individual posts/members, just vague labels.


LOL

I got banned for "the usual things" last time I called someone out. I'll pass. Luckily you dont have that problem around here because your part of the click

Chrisclover
12-24-2013, 11:49 AM
Does this comparison make sense ?the definition of a gap is so vague. A gap of PER ?a gap of points ?And the gaps of ages are different, which in turn leads to different sizes of improving room of players.
It's like a mathematics question,which means we need to discuss tons of situations and a single step untaken will make the whole answer incomplete.
So this thread is actually evaluating 4 players and then do some basic minus calculations. :rolleyes:

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 12:50 PM
Does this comparison make sense ?the definition of a gap is so vague. A gap of PER ?a gap of points ?And the gaps of ages are different, which in turn leads to different sizes of improving room of players.
It's like a mathematics question,which means we need to discuss tons of situations and a single step untaken will make the whole answer incomplete.
So this thread is actually evaluating 4 players and then do some basic minus calculations. :rolleyes:

Listen to me man. No one talks basketball here. Threads like this one are open and would be an interesting disussion to have with real fans. But you get these guys that only want to talk advanced stats. So obviously if one persons advanced stats are better than the other, he's better. Why even have a discussion? The op should just post the advanced stats of all the players then close the thread.

FraziersKnicks
12-24-2013, 01:33 PM
Listen to me man. No one talks basketball here. Threads like this one are open and would be an interesting disussion to have with real fans. But you get these guys that only want to talk advanced stats. So obviously if one persons advanced stats are better than the other, he's better. Why even have a discussion? The op should just post the advanced stats of all the players then close the thread.

Which ever way you decide to quantify the difference between these players the outcome remains the same. Just watching a basketball game and you can see LeBron is light years ahead of PG (and the rest of the league), if we use basic stats you get the same outcome. Advanced stats are just another measuring tool that allows us to reach the same conclusion.

Stop getting so defensive about it. No one's attacking you individually. If anyone came in here talking the rubbish you've been talking they would face the same response. The most knowledgable posters on this site use advanced stats, the most knowledgable GM's in the NBA use advanced stats and that's the same for baseball as well. Advanced stats are a fantastic ruler to measure players against nowadays and it's just another tool we can use in helping us answer these debates. Stop looking at it as a negative.

I guarantee if these advanced stats made Kobe out to be the best player in the league or discredited LeBron's ability you would swear by them....

bucketss
12-24-2013, 01:34 PM
Listen to me man. No one talks basketball here. Threads like this one are open and would be an interesting disussion to have with real fans. But you get these guys that only want to talk advanced stats. So obviously if one persons advanced stats are better than the other, he's better. Why even have a discussion? The op should just post the advanced stats of all the players then close the thread.

advanced stat >>>> judging based of swag

Pacerlive
12-24-2013, 01:35 PM
I missed the part where there is a legit reason for your critique. Why would anyone care about reliance of physical traits when what matters is the impact on the game? Being more skilled but less dominant isnt a good thing.
Although I don't agree with everything he said I will say that everything is at a cost on how these players are used from a schematic point of view.

How Lebron is used has cost his team in some aspect of the availablity of the number of schemes he and more importantly the other 4 guys on the floor can use. Having him run the pnp with Bosh has basically made Bosh a less effective player while increasing Lebrons effectiveness (lower rebound rate, lower FTrate..etc.)

Now I am not saying Bosh should be higher in the pecking order for the offense but how he has to accommodate to Lebron takes away from him (Bosh) and makes Lebron better or if you like his job easier.

Bosh is the clearest example of this but I think the same can be said of Battier and even Chalmers and not just on offense but on defense.

Having the trap with Bosh and Lebron forces everyone else to have to play help defense and they often times get them out of the best defensive position to be that help defender. This does cost the team in some aspect of defensive strategy as it requires smaller players that can recover from that help defense. Lebron is often the beneficiary of this however in the form of steals that lead to fast breaks due to the trap and guarding smaller players while requiring guys like Battier to guard bigger players like David West for example. Bosh also has to guard bigger players due to this scheme.

From a superstar point of view I like to ask how much do the other 4 players on the floor have to accommodate to you for you to be your best? HOw much do the other 4 players have to accomodate to Paul George, Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony?

Although Lebron is by far the best player in the league his team schematically is accomodating to him in a lot more ways than I think a lot of posters on here want to realize or acknowledge.

Jay_Dub
12-24-2013, 03:02 PM
Although I don't agree with everything he said I will say that everything is at a cost on how these players are used from a schematic point of view.

How Lebron is used has cost his team in some aspect of the availablity of the number of schemes he and more importantly the other 4 guys on the floor can use. Having him run the pnp with Bosh has basically made Bosh a less effective player while increasing Lebrons effectiveness (lower rebound rate, lower FTrate..etc.)

Now I am not saying Bosh should be higher in the pecking order for the offense but how he has to accommodate to Lebron takes away from him (Bosh) and makes Lebron better or if you like his job easier.

Bosh is the clearest example of this but I think the same can be said of Battier and even Chalmers and not just on offense but on defense.

Having the trap with Bosh and Lebron forces everyone else to have to play help defense and they often times get them out of the best defensive position to be that help defender. This does cost the team in some aspect of defensive strategy as it requires smaller players that can recover from that help defense. Lebron is often the beneficiary of this however in the form of steals that lead to fast breaks due to the trap and guarding smaller players while requiring guys like Battier to guard bigger players like David West for example. Bosh also has to guard bigger players due to this scheme.

From a superstar point of view I like to ask how much do the other 4 players on the floor have to accommodate to you for you to be your best? HOw much do the other 4 players have to accomodate to Paul George, Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony?

Although Lebron is by far the best player in the league his team schematically is accomodating to him in a lot more ways than I think a lot of posters on here want to realize or acknowledge.

I see what you are saying ... but I don't think that is a bad thing. I think that is good coaching. Miami is playing to the strengths of their best player. PG gets his more in the flow of his team's offense and doesn't dominate the ball as much which is fine too. They are different players. Lebron is really a point forward and I guarantee Allen, Chalmers and others are all better players because his great passing ability. The other superstars you mentioned don't have the same play making ability Lebron has. He is the most unique player in the league so obviously you will structure your offense a bit differently.

Also I disagree with your point about Bosh being a less effective player. He is shooting a higher percentage the last two seasons than he ever has. His stats are lower than his Raptors days because he is not the #1 option. He has always been a face up/jump shooting player and has never had a post up game. He gets less shots, but is shooting at a higher percentage.

Pacerlive
12-24-2013, 03:26 PM
I see what you are saying ... but I don't think that is a bad thing. I think that is good coaching. Miami is playing to the strengths of their best player. PG gets his more in the flow of his team's offense and doesn't dominate the ball as much which is fine too. They are different players. Lebron is really a point forward and I guarantee Allen, Chalmers and others are all better players because his great passing ability. The other superstars you mentioned don't have the same play making ability Lebron has. He is the most unique player in the league so obviously you will structure your offense a bit differently.

Also I disagree with your point about Bosh being a less effective player. He is shooting a higher percentage the last two seasons than he ever has. His stats are lower than his Raptors days because he is not the #1 option. He has always been a face up/jump shooting player and has never had a post up game. He gets less shots, but is shooting at a higher percentage.
Being an effective player isn't just about shooting a high percentage to me which is why I listed rebound rate and ftrate. BOsh last year as a Raptor had a TS% of .592% which is the same as last year while his rebound percentage went from 17.7 (as a raptor) to 12.6% (as a Heat).

There is no doubt in my mind that Bosh's rebound numbers are a direct result of him playing so far off the basket and this is on a team that struggles to rebound the ball already so its not like he is playing next to a great rebounder that is stealing away his chances.

The point of my argument is that by accommodating to Lebron other people on the team are playing a brand of basketball that doesn't maximize their talents. I think this is more the case for Lebron than say Paul George or Kevin Durant.

Now I don't discredit the fact that Lebron has the playmaking ability to make this possible but it does take away from the other 4 players so Lebron can have the floor spacing to work as a point forward.

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 03:33 PM
advanced stat >>>> judging based of swag

Swag?

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 03:44 PM
Which ever way you decide to quantify the difference between these players the outcome remains the same. Just watching a basketball game and you can see LeBron is light years ahead of PG (and the rest of the league), if we use basic stats you get the same outcome. Advanced stats are just another measuring tool that allows us to reach the same conclusion.

Stop getting so defensive about it. No one's attacking you individually. If anyone came in here talking the rubbish you've been talking they would face the same response. The most knowledgable posters on this site use advanced stats, the most knowledgable GM's in the NBA use advanced stats and that's the same for baseball as well. Advanced stats are a fantastic ruler to measure players against nowadays and it's just another tool we can use in helping us answer these debates. Stop looking at it as a negative.

I guarantee if these advanced stats made Kobe out to be the best player in the league or discredited LeBron's ability you would swear by them....

Man, you guys are to much. Im almost mad that I wasted my time reading this if all you are going to do is make this a Kobe v. Lebron thing. Again, i havent mentioned Kobe, or even replied to a Kobe post in some time. I made a thread about Kobe coming back and thats it. The people on this site that you consider "knowledgeable" may not be as "knowledgeable" to me. We can argue that fact all day long but at the end of the day, they are posting on a website and doing absolutely nothing for any NBA team in the league. As far as "the most knowledgeable gm's" using advanced stats, give me a list. I know the memphis and toronto have "Advanced stat guys" in the front office that contribute to the evaluation of talent, but thats it. Id say those make up about 10% of actual decisions in the front office. I never once stated anything about basic stats either. I said watch the men play the game. Watch and see how different situations affect different outcomes in a game. You stat guys at the end of all these "arguments" remind me that they arent the end all be all, but during the argument they seem to be. Hypocritical. I'll look at advanced stats however I want to because im not here to pretend to be a gm, im here to talk basketball. If you think Lebron is "light years" ahead of Durant, then you need to stop worrying about advanced stats and actually learn the game.

Thats why the NBA forum is **** right now.

bucketss
12-24-2013, 04:12 PM
If you think kobe is "light years" ahead of lebron, then you need to stop worrying about "swag" and actually learn the game.

Jay_Dub
12-24-2013, 04:22 PM
Being an effective player isn't just about shooting a high percentage to me which is why I listed rebound rate and ftrate. BOsh last year as a Raptor had a TS% of .592% which is the same as last year while his rebound percentage went from 17.7 (as a raptor) to 12.6% (as a Heat).

There is no doubt in my mind that Bosh's rebound numbers are a direct result of him playing so far off the basket and this is on a team that struggles to rebound the ball already so its not like he is playing next to a great rebounder that is stealing away his chances.

The point of my argument is that by accommodating to Lebron other people on the team are playing a brand of basketball that doesn't maximize their talents. I think this is more the case for Lebron than say Paul George or Kevin Durant.

Now I don't discredit the fact that Lebron has the playmaking ability to make this possible but it does take away from the other 4 players so Lebron can have the floor spacing to work as a point forward.

I agree with you about Bosh being a less affective rebounder ... but also keep in mind that he was playing beside Andrea Bargnani when he was in Toronto who a lazy, pathetic rebounder. So if Bosh didn't get the rebound ... no one was!

The reason why his ftrate was higher was because he was put in tons of isolations at about 10-15 ft range where he would face up, either shoot or pump fake and drive. He was very good at drawing fouls on his drive. He doesn't get those looks on the Heat ... and I don't think he should. I think you can agree that ISO ball isn't good offense. If anyone gets an ISO on the Heat it will be Lebron or Wade.

I think your point about players having to adapt more to playing with Lebron is totally valid. But with Bosh when you go from being top dog to 3rd option your effectiveness is inevitably go down. I think Bosh is as effective as he ever was on offense, he is just getting less touches. Although I do concede that he is a marginally worse rebounder with the Heat.

FraziersKnicks
12-24-2013, 04:43 PM
Man, you guys are to much. Im almost mad that I wasted my time reading this if all you are going to do is make this a Kobe v. Lebron thing. Again, i havent mentioned Kobe, or even replied to a Kobe post in some time. I made a thread about Kobe coming back and thats it. The people on this site that you consider "knowledgeable" may not be as "knowledgeable" to me. We can argue that fact all day long but at the end of the day, they are posting on a website and doing absolutely nothing for any NBA team in the league. As far as "the most knowledgeable gm's" using advanced stats, give me a list. I know the memphis and toronto have "Advanced stat guys" in the front office that contribute to the evaluation of talent, but thats it. Id say those make up about 10% of actual decisions in the front office. I never once stated anything about basic stats either. I said watch the men play the game. Watch and see how different situations affect different outcomes in a game. You stat guys at the end of all these "arguments" remind me that they arent the end all be all, but during the argument they seem to be. Hypocritical. I'll look at advanced stats however I want to because im not here to pretend to be a gm, im here to talk basketball. If you think Lebron is "light years" ahead of Durant, then you need to stop worrying about advanced stats and actually learn the game.

Thats why the NBA forum is **** right now.

Sam Presti has turned the Thunder into one of the best teams in the NBA. Masai Ujiri turned the Nuggets into a better team when their superstar left and has somehow managed to turn the Raptors future around in the matter of a few months by trading away Gay and Bargnani (two guys who advanced stats show how awful they are). Chris Wallace has turned the Grizz into a western conference powerhouse (also trading away Rudy Gay) without handing out max contracts. Daryl Morey has turned a Rockets team that seemed destined for rebuilding mediocrity into a contender within the space of a season.

You ask any knowledgable NBA fan who they think are they best GM's in basketball and these guys would be the most commonly mentioned names and they all use advanced stats to influence their decision. 22 of the 30 teams in the NBA have an analytical division in their front office. Why would all these teams be trusting advanced stats and putting so much financial backing into it if it meant nothing?

Trust me, I watch the game. I'd say there's a very good chance I watch more basketball than you. But please tell me, from watching the game, why do you believe Melo is a better scorer than KD? And what on earth does a player being fluid and pure have to do with how much better they are than someone? If PG is a better shooter than LeBron why does he miss more mid-range and three point shots than him? Ignoring all the stats, can you explain this to me?

mngopher35
12-24-2013, 05:27 PM
I agree with you about Bosh being a less affective rebounder ... but also keep in mind that he was playing beside Andrea Bargnani when he was in Toronto who a lazy, pathetic rebounder. So if Bosh didn't get the rebound ... no one was!

The reason why his ftrate was higher was because he was put in tons of isolations at about 10-15 ft range where he would face up, either shoot or pump fake and drive. He was very good at drawing fouls on his drive. He doesn't get those looks on the Heat ... and I don't think he should. I think you can agree that ISO ball isn't good offense. If anyone gets an ISO on the Heat it will be Lebron or Wade.

I think your point about players having to adapt more to playing with Lebron is totally valid. But with Bosh when you go from being top dog to 3rd option your effectiveness is inevitably go down. I think Bosh is as effective as he ever was on offense, he is just getting less touches. Although I do concede that he is a marginally worse rebounder with the Heat.

I think you both have some very good points. It was obvious from the start that these 3 would need to make adjustments to make it all work out. The biggest thing with Lebron is he is the best player in the league so you want the ball in his hands more for playmaking and scoring. This will obviously lead to less touches and opportunities for bosh, but will also help to keep wade more fresh throughout the year.

Also Bosh's drop off in rebounding has been on both ends of the court. I can see why his o rebounding might have dropped because of Lebron but defensively there are other factors as well. Not to mention going from a bad team with him being the main rebounder to playing with great rebounders at the sg and sf to go along with haslem, anthony, and now birdman compared to Bargs (Miami is a better rebounding team than Toronto was, even with the lack of size).

Pacerslive was right about this team having to adapt and doing more of the adapting around Lebron, but that is obviously because that is how they needed to win games. He is the best weapon in the game today with all of his abilities. The issues with adapting come from putting a team together that doesn't really fit great. Wade and Lebron have overlapping skill sets and both want the ball in their hand (less of a problem now obviously as this could now help wades career). Then you add a big man who needs to be used for spacing more than ever, who was used to getting the ball in more iso's as well.

The reason the pacers team and okc teams don't have that issue is they have built their team better around their stars instead of getting a large bulk of talent. George has hibbert to (help) carry the defense which is the most important part of that team, kd isn't the playmaker Lebron is and has westbrook to take over for him on in that aspect with ibaka as a rim protector on d. Lebron is the best scorer, playmaker, and defender on that team. Sure people need to adjust a little more to playing around Lebron (actually in the heat system in general), but that is also partly because of how they put this team together.

bucketss
12-24-2013, 05:35 PM
Sam Presti has turned the Thunder into one of the best teams in the NBA. Masai Ujiri turned the Nuggets into a better team when their superstar left and has somehow managed to turn the Raptors future around in the matter of a few months by trading away Gay and Bargnani (two guys who advanced stats show how awful they are). Chris Wallace has turned the Grizz into a western conference powerhouse (also trading away Rudy Gay) without handing out max contracts. Daryl Morey has turned a Rockets team that seemed destined for rebuilding mediocrity into a contender within the space of a season.

You ask any knowledgable NBA fan who they think are they best GM's in basketball and these guys would be the most commonly mentioned names and they all use advanced stats to influence their decision. 22 of the 30 teams in the NBA have an analytical division in their front office. Why would all these teams be trusting advanced stats and putting so much financial backing into it if it meant nothing?

Trust me, I watch the game. I'd say there's a very good chance I watch more basketball than you. But please tell me, from watching the game, why do you believe Melo is a better scorer than KD? And what on earth does a player being fluid and pure have to do with how much better they are than someone? If PG is a better shooter than LeBron why does he miss more mid-range and three point shots than him? Ignoring all the stats, can you explain this to me?

melo is a better scorer because he has more fancy moves, thats pretty much the logic nick uses.

Pacerlive
12-24-2013, 10:24 PM
I think you both have some very good points. It was obvious from the start that these 3 would need to make adjustments to make it all work out. The biggest thing with Lebron is he is the best player in the league so you want the ball in his hands more for playmaking and scoring. This will obviously lead to less touches and opportunities for bosh, but will also help to keep wade more fresh throughout the year.

Also Bosh's drop off in rebounding has been on both ends of the court. I can see why his o rebounding might have dropped because of Lebron but defensively there are other factors as well. Not to mention going from a bad team with him being the main rebounder to playing with great rebounders at the sg and sf to go along with haslem, anthony, and now birdman compared to Bargs (Miami is a better rebounding team than Toronto was, even with the lack of size).

Pacerslive was right about this team having to adapt and doing more of the adapting around Lebron, but that is obviously because that is how they needed to win games. He is the best weapon in the game today with all of his abilities. The issues with adapting come from putting a team together that doesn't really fit great. Wade and Lebron have overlapping skill sets and both want the ball in their hand (less of a problem now obviously as this could now help wades career). Then you add a big man who needs to be used for spacing more than ever, who was used to getting the ball in more iso's as well.

The reason the pacers team and okc teams don't have that issue is they have built their team better around their stars instead of getting a large bulk of talent. George has hibbert to (help) carry the defense which is the most important part of that team, kd isn't the playmaker Lebron is and has westbrook to take over for him on in that aspect with ibaka as a rim protector on d. Lebron is the best scorer, playmaker, and defender on that team. Sure people need to adjust a little more to playing around Lebron (actually in the heat system in general), but that is also partly because of how they put this team together.

To your last paragraph Lebron is pampered on defense due to his offensive useage. When they trap he isn't the one that recovers and he gets the large benefit of the trap as it forces his man to forfeit the ball to another player or in a steal that leads to a fast break. His defense is good but his team relies on him less than KD through out the game.

This is why I argue his offensive efficiency is accommodated not just on offense but also on defense. If you don't factor that in then you won't get the full picture of Lebron IMO much like you won't get the full picture of KD or PG.

nickdymez
12-24-2013, 10:52 PM
Sam Presti has turned the Thunder into one of the best teams in the NBA.

The thunder had a few good drafts dating back to Sonic days. Im not going to sit here and give advanced stats any credit for drafting KD, Westbrook, Ibaka, Collison, and Harden. You mean to tell me that advanced statisticians had something to do with that? And spare me the "roll players" argument, GM's were picking solid role players before advanced stats, ask Jerry West.




Masai Ujiri turned the Nuggets into a better team when their superstar left

The Nuggets have underachieved every year seeing as though they havent made a conference finals in 6 years i think.


and has somehow managed to turn the Raptors future around in the matter of a few months by trading away Gay and Bargnani (two guys who advanced stats show how awful they are).

The Jury is out.


Chris Wallace has turned the Grizz into a western conference powerhouse (also trading away Rudy Gay) without handing out max contracts.

Memphis is on the verge of blowing it up as we speak.


Daryl Morey has turned a Rockets team that seemed destined for rebuilding mediocrity into a contender within the space of a season.

Jury is still out. The Rockets were one of the first teams that started using advanced analytics i believe and have absolutely nothing to show for it.


You ask any knowledgable NBA fan who they think are they best GM's in basketball and these guys would be the most commonly mentioned names and they all use advanced stats to influence their decision.

Define knowledgeable.


22 of the 30 teams in the NBA have an analytical division in their front office. Why would all these teams be trusting advanced stats and putting so much financial backing into it if it meant nothing?

Why wouldn't all 30 teams use them?


Trust me, I watch the game. I'd say there's a very good chance I watch more basketball than you.

I will absolutely not trust you. There is no way that you can quantify this statement at all.



But please tell me, from watching the game, why do you believe Melo is a better scorer than KD?

They are both extremely great scorers. Melo is much more inefficient than KD. But Melo is bigger and harder to deal with in the post. Plus Melo has pretty much the same range as KD. As a defender I would much rather guard KD than Melo. Thats me though. Im not going to look at a bunch of numbers and have that determine whether or not a player can score better than another.


And what on earth does a player being fluid and pure have to do with how much better they are than someone? If PG is a better shooter than LeBron why does he miss more mid-range and three point shots than him? Ignoring all the stats, can you explain this to me?

Lebron shoots better mid range and 3 point % than some of these guys because no one plays up on Lebron. I mean that should be obvious.

mngopher35
12-24-2013, 11:35 PM
To your last paragraph Lebron is pampered on defense due to his offensive useage. When they trap he isn't the one that recovers and he gets the large benefit of the trap as it forces his man to forfeit the ball to another player or in a steal that leads to a fast break. His defense is good but his team relies on him less than KD through out the game.

This is why I argue his offensive efficiency is accommodated not just on offense but also on defense. If you don't factor that in then you won't get the full picture of Lebron IMO much like you won't get the full picture of KD or PG.

Of course Lebron doesn't run out and trap/recover all the time. Lebron is one of the best help defenders in the game and one of the best free safeties for getting to those passes. Why would they want him away from that action. Also unlike George he is the anchor to his defense when on the court at times, no dpoy candidate to protect the hoop for him it's his job.

I haven't watched enough games this year to say that the same effort is going in but based off last year (playoffs when it matters too) and the few games I have seen this year of him he has definitely not been pampered on defense. He also has to guard the best players 1-4 in key moments. Not sure if that has been happening for George (and it hasn't for kd) or not yet since when I watch him its usually against a good sf. Lastly, the Heat rely a ton on his size and rebounding as well on Defense. I am not saying that the heat don't have good team defense with their speed etc. Lebron just has a different role than PG and KD.

b@llhog24
12-25-2013, 12:18 AM
Although I don't agree with everything he said I will say that everything is at a cost on how these players are used from a schematic point of view.

How Lebron is used has cost his team in some aspect of the availablity of the number of schemes he and more importantly the other 4 guys on the floor can use. Having him run the pnp with Bosh has basically made Bosh a less effective player while increasing Lebrons effectiveness (lower rebound rate, lower FTrate..etc.)

Now I am not saying Bosh should be higher in the pecking order for the offense but how he has to accommodate to Lebron takes away from him (Bosh) and makes Lebron better or if you like his job easier.

Bosh is the clearest example of this but I think the same can be said of Battier and even Chalmers and not just on offense but on defense.

Having the trap with Bosh and Lebron forces everyone else to have to play help defense and they often times get them out of the best defensive position to be that help defender. This does cost the team in some aspect of defensive strategy as it requires smaller players that can recover from that help defense. Lebron is often the beneficiary of this however in the form of steals that lead to fast breaks due to the trap and guarding smaller players while requiring guys like Battier to guard bigger players like David West for example. Bosh also has to guard bigger players due to this scheme.

From a superstar point of view I like to ask how much do the other 4 players on the floor have to accommodate to you for you to be your best? HOw much do the other 4 players have to accomodate to Paul George, Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony?

Although Lebron is by far the best player in the league his team schematically is accomodating to him in a lot more ways than I think a lot of posters on here want to realize or acknowledge.

This has been discussed before and it's only an issue if you're comparing to players that bring as much to the table as he does. Basically another all time great.

Chronz
12-25-2013, 12:57 AM
I got banned for "the usual things" last time I called someone out. I'll pass. Luckily you dont have that problem around here because your part of the click

You know nothing and blame others for your own shortcomings. Like I've told you and your kind (pretty sure it was you actually), I've been banned before and I currently cant get rid of an infraction despite the poster I allegedly offended being on my side.

Seriously, do you ever know what you're talking about?

bucketss
12-25-2013, 01:11 AM
The thunder had a few good drafts dating back to Sonic days. Im not going to sit here and give advanced stats any credit for drafting KD, Westbrook, Ibaka, Collison, and Harden. You mean to tell me that advanced statisticians had something to do with that? And spare me the "roll players" argument, GM's were picking solid role players before advanced stats, ask Jerry West.

outside KD, those picks were a bit controversial, specifically Westbrook so will give their front office credit for their drafting. i wouldn't give Advanced stats that credit either, but still pretty impressive drafting by them.






The Nuggets have underachieved every year seeing as though they havent made a conference finals in 6 years i think.

he was talking about since masai took over, and since masai has been under the helm the nuggets have overachieved, remember they were suppose to be a lottery team or atleast pretty mediocre when melo left.




The Jury is out.

got rid of two guys someone like you would probably consider 'stars", both of them are actually liabilities to team, and toronto has gotten better in their absence.


Memphis is on the verge of blowing it up as we speak.

because of injuries,


Jury is still out. The Rockets were one of the first teams that started using advanced analytics i believe and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

nothing? they have been pretty good considering the talent on the team pre howard, harden


Define knowledgeable.

opposite of you


Why wouldn't all 30 teams use them?

they will eventually







They are both extremely great scorers. Melo is much more inefficient than KD. But Melo is bigger and harder to deal with in the post. Plus Melo has pretty much the same range as KD. As a defender I would much rather guard KD than Melo. Thats me though. Im not going to look at a bunch of numbers and have that determine whether or not a player can score better than another.


so durant scores more, and misses less shots, and takes less shots, but that still doesn't convince you.,,, hmm, like i said you judge players of "swag"

FraziersKnicks
12-25-2013, 07:22 AM
The thunder had a few good drafts dating back to Sonic days. Im not going to sit here and give advanced stats any credit for drafting KD, Westbrook, Ibaka, Collison, and Harden. You mean to tell me that advanced statisticians had something to do with that? And spare me the "roll players" argument, GM's were picking solid role players before advanced stats, ask Jerry West.





The Nuggets have underachieved every year seeing as though they havent made a conference finals in 6 years i think.



The Jury is out.



Memphis is on the verge of blowing it up as we speak.



Jury is still out. The Rockets were one of the first teams that started using advanced analytics i believe and have absolutely nothing to show for it.



Define knowledgeable.



Why wouldn't all 30 teams use them?



I will absolutely not trust you. There is no way that you can quantify this statement at all.




They are both extremely great scorers. Melo is much more inefficient than KD. But Melo is bigger and harder to deal with in the post. Plus Melo has pretty much the same range as KD. As a defender I would much rather guard KD than Melo. Thats me though. Im not going to look at a bunch of numbers and have that determine whether or not a player can score better than another.



Lebron shoots better mid range and 3 point % than some of these guys because no one plays up on Lebron. I mean that should be obvious.

Your last two answers just demonstrate your horrendous lack of knowledge when it comes to basketball. It is literally laughable that you would type those responses and deem them worthy of an argument.

Bucketss has already dealt with you.

Pacerlive
12-25-2013, 12:22 PM
Of course Lebron doesn't run out and trap/recover all the time. Lebron is one of the best help defenders in the game and one of the best free safeties for getting to those passes. Why would they want him away from that action. Also unlike George he is the anchor to his defense when on the court at times, no dpoy candidate to protect the hoop for him it's his job.

I haven't watched enough games this year to say that the same effort is going in but based off last year (playoffs when it matters too) and the few games I have seen this year of him he has definitely not been pampered on defense. He also has to guard the best players 1-4 in key moments. Not sure if that has been happening for George (and it hasn't for kd) or not yet since when I watch him its usually against a good sf. Lastly, the Heat rely a ton on his size and rebounding as well on Defense. I am not saying that the heat don't have good team defense with their speed etc. Lebron just has a different role than PG and KD.
I agree he is a great defender but he is taking a lower workload when you compare him to KD and Paul George. He was a 100 possessions less than KD last year and over 500 less than Paul George. Sorry but if you are in fact the best defender then those stats suggest you are getting pampered to me so when people look at those gaudy offensive stats they hardly take that into account much like they hardly take into an account the defensive useage of other players. They see those "key movements" as you put it and think he has been doing it the entire game which he hasn't.

What I think people have a hard time connecting is that the Heat rely on Lebron for rebounding because he needs spacing to be effective. Remove that requirement of his bigs playing away from the basket so they can be more effective at protecting the rim and rebounding.

mngopher35
12-25-2013, 01:01 PM
I agree he is a great defender but he is taking a lower workload when you compare him to KD and Paul George. He was a 100 possessions less than KD last year and over 500 less than Paul George. Sorry but if you are in fact the best defender then those stats suggest you are getting pampered to me so when people look at those gaudy offensive stats they hardly take that into account much like they hardly take into an account the defensive useage of other players. They see those "key movements" as you put it and think he has been doing it the entire game which he hasn't.

Do you have a link to these numbers? Just curious because I would like to compare Lebron to defenders who play more in his role (help defender and rebounder). Where do players like ibaka and mark gasol rank? Is 100 a lot of possessions in a year, thats like 1 per game? I am basing most of my argument off of the eye test but would love some extra insight.


What I think people have a hard time connecting is that the Heat rely on Lebron for rebounding because he needs spacing to be effective. Remove that requirement of his bigs playing away from the basket so they can be more effective at protecting the rim and rebounding.

Well that is just how the team was built. Lebron didn't have spacing all the time in Cleveland with Shaq, hickson, varejao and made it work (this was before he could even shoot). I agree he needs spacing but a couple shooters is fine with solid bigs. I think if they had a legit big man it would be a huge benefit to Lebron and his workload. Look what Chris Anderson can do for them. Think if he had an Ibaka or Hibbert.

Pacerlive
12-25-2013, 04:54 PM
Do you have a link to these numbers? Just curious because I would like to compare Lebron to defenders who play more in his role (help defender and rebounder). Where do players like ibaka and mark gasol rank? Is 100 a lot of possessions in a year, thats like 1 per game? I am basing most of my argument off of the eye test but would love some extra insight.



Well that is just how the team was built. Lebron didn't have spacing all the time in Cleveland with Shaq, hickson, varejao and made it work (this was before he could even shoot). I agree he needs spacing but a couple shooters is fine with solid bigs. I think if they had a legit big man it would be a huge benefit to Lebron and his workload. Look what Chris Anderson can do for them. Think if he had an Ibaka or Hibbert.

Those are synergy stats and I have already posted an alternate link. They choose to build with Bosh so for me that's on them.

mngopher35
12-25-2013, 06:54 PM
Those are synergy stats and I have already posted an alternate link. They choose to build with Bosh so for me that's on them.

ahh, I don't have a subscription. My guess would be that looking at those big men they have lower possessions guarded than pg and kd as well. I may be wrong but the differences in their roles that I went over earlier may explain some of the gap..

I know they chose bosh and that's on them (seems to have worked just fine). It doesn't change the added defensive pressure James takes on with no hibbert/ibaka type to protect the rim.

nickdymez
12-26-2013, 02:21 PM
outside KD, those picks were a bit controversial, specifically Westbrook so will give their front office credit for their drafting. i wouldn't give Advanced stats that credit either, but still pretty impressive drafting by them


Controversial? You mean they took a chance. lol. Every team does that.



he was talking about since masai took over, and since masai has been under the helm the nuggets have overachieved, remember they were suppose to be a lottery team or atleast pretty mediocre when melo left

Again, the Nuggets are never a threat. You have proved nothing to me with your statement except that you want to argue with me for the fun of it.




got rid of two guys someone like you would probably consider 'stars", both of them are actually liabilities to team, and toronto has gotten better in their absence


lol. The trade went down about 2 weeks ago i believe. Thats enough time for you to tell me that they have gotten better? So can I choose two random weeks where both guys where on the team and see how they compare? Again, your trying to argue just to argue, or your dumb.


because of injuries


Ok an excuse. Im not a Rudy Gay fan, but it would sure have been nice to have him to step up in times like this instead of having to blow the team up. This team got KILLED in the WCF last year.


nothing? they have been pretty good considering the talent on the team pre howard, harden

I think you mistake good for mediocore.


opposite of you

You dont know me. Your're a follower. stop it.



they will eventually

Eventually? I'll give you an analogy. If you saw your're neighbor using a tool or some innovative concept to keep his yard looking emaculate and it was easily attainable by you, would you wait to use it yourself and make your yard look just as nice?





so durant scores more, and misses less shots, and takes less shots, but that still doesn't convince you.,,, hmm, like i said you judge players of "swag"

Just read what I wrote again and stop trying to argue like a woman.

nickdymez
12-26-2013, 02:24 PM
Your last two answers just demonstrate your horrendous lack of knowledge when it comes to basketball.

Please. Feel free to elaborate and tell me where im wrong.



Bucketss has already dealt with you.

No. If you think that he "dealt" with me, your just as ignorant as him.

nickdymez
12-26-2013, 02:25 PM
You know nothing and blame others for your own shortcomings. Like I've told you and your kind (pretty sure it was you actually), I've been banned before and I currently cant get rid of an infraction despite the poster I allegedly offended being on my side.

Seriously, do you ever know what you're talking about?

lol. This is an awesome post for so many different reasons.

Chronz
12-26-2013, 02:54 PM
lol. This is an awesome post for so many different reasons.

agreed. the main one being the lack of rebuttal it allows.

bucketss
12-26-2013, 03:03 PM
Controversial? You mean they took a chance. lol. Every team does that..

during the lottery teams like to pkay it safe, and westbrook was a risk, but they knew what they were doing.





Again, the Nuggets are never a threat. You have proved nothing to me with your statement except that you want to argue with me for the fun of it.


you do know we're talking about when masai took over right? in that little time did you see how he changed that team? do you even know the time period masai was GM?




lol. The trade went down about 2 weeks ago i believe. Thats enough time for you to tell me that they have gotten better? So can I choose two random weeks where both guys where on the team and see how they compare? Again, your trying to argue just to argue, or your dumb.

watch the games and you will see the difference, every team rudy leaves gets better, also check out our andrea barfnani has changed the knicks lol, again both these guys are probably stars or atleast borderline in your eyes, because their games have "swag"




Ok an excuse. Im not a Rudy Gay fan, but it would sure have been nice to have him to step up in times like this instead of having to blow the team up. This team got KILLED in the WCF last year.

without rudy they have gone deep in the playoffs, how have they fared with rudy? lost in the first round against the clips, without him they beat the clips and went on to beat okc and reached the west conf. rudy = cancer


I think you mistake good for mediocore.

you mistake swag for talent.


You dont know me. Your're a follower. stop it.

i don't want to know you, i might stumble upon your kobe shrine,




Eventually? I'll give you an analogy. If you saw your're neighbor using a tool or some innovative concept to keep his yard looking emaculate and it was easily attainable by you, would you wait to use it yourself and make your yard look just as nice?


:facepalm:



Just read what I wrote again and stop trying to argue like a woman

nickdymez
12-26-2013, 03:09 PM
agreed. the main one being the lack of rebuttal it allows.

Exactly.

nickdymez
12-26-2013, 03:09 PM
during the lottery teams like to pkay it safe, and westbrook was a risk, but they knew what they were doing.







you do know we're talking about when masai took over right? in that little time did you see how he changed that team? do you even know the time period masai was GM?





watch the games and you will see the difference, every team rudy leaves gets better, also check out our andrea barfnani has changed the knicks lol, again both these guys are probably stars or atleast borderline in your eyes, because their games have "swag"





without rudy they have gone deep in the playoffs, how have they fared with rudy? lost in the first round against the clips, without him they beat the clips and went on to beat okc and reached the west conf. rudy = cancer



you mistake swag for talent.



i don't want to know you, i might stumble upon your kobe shrine,






:facepalm:



Just read what I wrote again and stop trying to argue like a woman

You arent even intelligent at all. I have to stop with you. Thanks for playing

bucketss
12-26-2013, 03:21 PM
You arent even intelligent at all. I have to stop with you. Thanks for playing

thanks for conceding defeat.

Pacerlive
12-26-2013, 06:41 PM
Do you have a link to these numbers? Just curious because I would like to compare Lebron to defenders who play more in his role (help defender and rebounder). Where do players like ibaka and mark gasol rank? Is 100 a lot of possessions in a year, thats like 1 per game? I am basing most of my argument off of the eye test but would love some extra insight.

Ibaka this year has defended 252 to Lebrons 234. The difference when you compare a true PF to a SF is the number of spot ups they defend. Ibaka isn't going to see as many and likewise Lebron isn't going to see as many post ups as Ibaka which often lead to higher percentage shots. IF you want an example just think of how many times you saw Lebron on David West or a true PF vs a guy like Battier defending them. This is what I mean by pampering becuase its obvious he doesn't want to get the crap kicked out of him AND carry the workload on offense.

To address your points about help defenders Roy Hibbert has defended 200 plays to Paul Geroge 380 this year. The shear number again is larger than KD, LJ, just like last year.

The difference though is that in isolations Paul George ppp is 0.68 compared to Lebrons 0.86.

How much credit do you give Hibbert on isolations? Probably some but how much credit do you give Lebron on traps? He doesn't normally pick up the pnr ball handler or defend off of screens much. So in essence he isnt' required to run around and defend the best player off of screens and pnr's like PG or KD do. The vast majority of his defense is off of spot ups which require by in large the least effort which goes back to my point. Heck even Lance Stephenson has defended more plays than Lebron this year.

mngopher35
12-26-2013, 07:10 PM
Ibaka this year has defended 252 to Lebrons 234. The difference when you compare a true PF to a SF is the number of spot ups they defend. Ibaka isn't going to see as many and likewise Lebron isn't going to see as many post ups as Ibaka which often lead to higher percentage shots. IF you want an example just think of how many times you saw Lebron on David West or a true PF vs a guy like Battier defending them. This is what I mean by pampering becuase its obvious he doesn't want to get the crap kicked out of him AND carry the workload on offense.

To address your points about help defenders Roy Hibbert has defended 200 plays to Paul Geroge 380 this year. The shear number again is larger than KD, LJ, just like last year.

The difference though is that in isolations Paul George ppp is 0.68 compared to Lebrons 0.86.

How much credit do you give Hibbert on isolations? Probably some but how much credit do you give Lebron on traps? He doesn't normally pick up the pnr ball handler or defend off of screens much. So in essence he isnt' required to run around and defend the best player off of screens and pnr's like PG or KD do. The vast majority of his defense is off of spot ups which require by in large the least effort which goes back to my point. Heck even Lance Stephenson has defended more plays than Lebron this year.

My point is that Lebron's role on defense is similar to an ibaka many times because he is the best help defender and great rebounder as well because of how the team is built. Meaning he will be defending less shots but still be effective in other ways (help defender and rebounder) and certainly wouldn't say he is pampered compared to other players on Defense. I just really don't see that when he doesn't have the support of a shotblocker/rebounder behind him. He has to be that guy at times and the 1 on 1 defender at others.

To your David West and power forwards thing, that's part of why I don't understand your point. Players like George and Durant don't have to worry about battling down low with a player like West but Lebron does at times. This gives him a larger burden imo because it takes more energy to battle with someone like west and then still carry a team vs a great defense. So while your right that he doesn't do it all game, he still does it when needed and that is an added defensive burden.

OlivaThor
12-26-2013, 07:40 PM
Durant - Melo. Gap between Lebron and George is huge, but Melo is nowhere Durant. Im fan of all 4 but Melo is just ultratalented chucker, he does not bring nothing but ineficient scoring and good rebounding rate for position, but he does not help you to win games for a long time

Pacerlive
12-26-2013, 07:42 PM
My point is that Lebron's role on defense is similar to an ibaka many times because he is the best help defender and great rebounder as well because of how the team is built. Meaning he will be defending less shots but still be effective in other ways (help defender and rebounder) and certainly wouldn't say he is pampered compared to other players on Defense. I just really don't see that when he doesn't have the support of a shotblocker/rebounder behind him. He has to be that guy at times and the 1 on 1 defender at others.

To your David West and power forwards thing, that's part of why I don't understand your point. Players like George and Durant don't have to worry about battling down low with a player like West but Lebron does at times. This gives him a larger burden imo because it takes more energy to battle with someone like west and then still carry a team vs a great defense. So while your right that he doesn't do it all game, he still does it when needed and that is an added defensive burden.

KD and PG guard stretch PFs like Lebron. He really doesn't guard PFs like Battier does on his own team which is the point. He doesn't guard the pnr like PG or the screen. They have numbers for all that.

The entire Heat defense is about help defense. That isn't just on Lebron all of them have to rotate because that's in large part how they defend the pnr with traps. They will defend curls the same way. He isn't relied on more because the entire defensive system requires help defense from the other 4.

mngopher35
12-26-2013, 08:05 PM
KD and PG guard stretch PFs like Lebron. He really doesn't guard PFs like Battier does on his own team which is the point. He doesn't guard the pnr like PG or the screen. They have numbers for all that.

The entire Heat defense is about help defense. That isn't just on Lebron all of them have to rotate because that's in large part how they defend the pnr with traps. They will defend curls the same way. He isn't relied on more because the entire defensive system requires help defense from the other 4.

You are correct in that help defense isn't all on Lebron, I am not trying to imply that (they have good team defense). But he is generally rotated down low to be the help defender/rebounder which has been my point. He isn't the one chasing the shots down, he ends up in more of an ibaka role than Paul George role which was what I was saying about defended possessions. He won't be running around challenging shots on the switches etc but that doesn't make him pampered on that end, just means he's in a different role.

Also he guards 4's more than the other two, especially when it matters most like in the playoffs. He might not do it all the time like I said but it is definitely a defensive burden he can take that the others can't (or just don't have to). Either way it is another reason why I disagree with your point.

I really don't see any sort of evidence at all that Lebron has any less of a defensive burden than these other players. This possessions defended seems to be dependent on the role played within a defense and it has been your only real point so far.

Pacerlive
12-27-2013, 11:40 AM
You are correct in that help defense isn't all on Lebron, I am not trying to imply that (they have good team defense). But he is generally rotated down low to be the help defender/rebounder which has been my point. He isn't the one chasing the shots down, he ends up in more of an ibaka role than Paul George role which was what I was saying about defended possessions. He won't be running around challenging shots on the switches etc but that doesn't make him pampered on that end, just means he's in a different role.

Also he guards 4's more than the other two, especially when it matters most like in the playoffs. He might not do it all the time like I said but it is definitely a defensive burden he can take that the others can't (or just don't have to). Either way it is another reason why I disagree with your point.

I really don't see any sort of evidence at all that Lebron has any less of a defensive burden than these other players. This possessions defended seems to be dependent on the role played within a defense and it has been your only real point so far.
So what you are saying is that being largely a help defender is harder than playing man to man defense the majority of the time. I disagree with that and most offensive systems put a higher burden on man to man defense as the plays are designed to free up the ball handler. The Heat attack this by the trap which is essentially help defense. They get burned by their help defense when teams rotate the ball around the perimeter before the defense rotates. Hence why they are a terrible at defending the three because whoever you are defending either in the post or on the ball handler they typically double that offensive threat. That by design puts a lesser burden on defending your man.

You even saw this in the Laker game and you saw Lebron take plays off guarding Nick Young and allowing Dwayne Wade do the dirty work. I have no doubt Lebron is a great defender but he does not defend the most plays even on his own team. To be ranked with PG defensively I think you have to come close to defending the amount of plays that marks you as the best defensive weapon on your team. Right now you only get that with Lebron when its so called matters, late in the fourth typically with a game close. That to me is getting pampered.

Bring The Heat
12-27-2013, 12:11 PM
So what you are saying is that being largely a help defender is harder than playing man to man defense the majority of the time. I disagree with that and most offensive systems put a higher burden on man to man defense as the plays are designed to free up the ball handler. The Heat attack this by the trap which is essentially help defense. They get burned by their help defense when teams rotate the ball around the perimeter before the defense rotates. Hence why they are a terrible at defending the three because whoever you are defending either in the post or on the ball handler they typically double that offensive threat. That by design puts a lesser burden on defending your man.

You even saw this in the Laker game and you saw Lebron take plays off guarding Nick Young and allowing Dwayne Wade do the dirty work. I have no doubt Lebron is a great defender but he does not defend the most plays even on his own team. To be ranked with PG defensively I think you have to come close to defending the amount of plays that marks you as the best defensive weapon on your team. Right now you only get that with Lebron when its so called matters, late in the fourth typically with a game close. That to me is getting pampered.


What this dude is trying to get you to understand is that LeBron has a burden on the defensive end in a different way. It's true what he says, Paul George knows has 2 monsters down low that defend the paint and he basically doesn't have to worry about that area too much if at all. LeBron knows that there is no enforcer or intimidating threat on the heat in the paint area. Also LeBron has to bang with David West and put a lot of effort in rebounding the ball because we are undersized.

You guys are obviously getting technical with all these ridiculous numbers, we all know LeBron works hard on both sides of the floor and carries the team in a lot of areas.... Saying who works harder is a matter of opinion there is really no concrete evidence.

Pacerlive
12-27-2013, 01:37 PM
What this dude is trying to get you to understand is that LeBron has a burden on the defensive end in a different way. It's true what he says, Paul George knows has 2 monsters down low that defend the paint and he basically doesn't have to worry about that area too much if at all. LeBron knows that there is no enforcer or intimidating threat on the heat in the paint area. Also LeBron has to bang with David West and put a lot of effort in rebounding the ball because we are undersized.

You guys are obviously getting technical with all these ridiculous numbers, we all know LeBron works hard on both sides of the floor and carries the team in a lot of areas.... Saying who works harder is a matter of opinion there is really no concrete evidence.
I know what he trying to say but its stilll wrong. The burden is self inflicted because the Heat favor the offensive end more than the defensive end. This leads to padded stats on the offensive end and unnecessary doubling on the defensive end. It largely works because everyone is a help defender on the Heat and not just Lebron which is the entire point. Those are just the facts of running a smaller lineup to out score an opponent.

Lebron is no less burden than Dwayne Wade or Mario Chalmers becuase its how the defensive system is set up. No Heat player is on a defensive island when you double team the amount that they do. Lebron benefits just like the rest of Heat players with the amount of double teams they run.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-27-2013, 01:41 PM
Lebron and George.

mngopher35
12-27-2013, 03:21 PM
So what you are saying is that being largely a help defender is harder than playing man to man defense the majority of the time. I disagree with that and most offensive systems put a higher burden on man to man defense as the plays are designed to free up the ball handler. The Heat attack this by the trap which is essentially help defense. They get burned by their help defense when teams rotate the ball around the perimeter before the defense rotates. Hence why they are a terrible at defending the three because whoever you are defending either in the post or on the ball handler they typically double that offensive threat. That by design puts a lesser burden on defending your man.

You even saw this in the Laker game and you saw Lebron take plays off guarding Nick Young and allowing Dwayne Wade do the dirty work. I have no doubt Lebron is a great defender but he does not defend the most plays even on his own team. To be ranked with PG defensively I think you have to come close to defending the amount of plays that marks you as the best defensive weapon on your team. Right now you only get that with Lebron when its so called matters, late in the fourth typically with a game close. That to me is getting pampered.

No now you are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that having a different role will decrease the number of possessions defended. For example how many plays has Paul George defended compared to Hibbert. Is it then safe to say that Hibbert has less of a burden on defense? Heck no. I am saying that having no big man behind you, having to guard the best player on the other team, having to battle with PF's for rebounds etc. all add up and are factors that play into this single stat you continue to use to try and show burden. How many possessions did Marc Gasol defend last year compared to PG, Durant, Lebron? If he was lower which is my guess does that mean he has less of a burden? Does that mean he shouldn't have been DPOY?

You are basically using this as a way to judge burden with absolutely no proof of correlation or anything. You have to take into account the role people are playing and what they do within the defense. Right now all ou have is opinion and it is honestly the first time I have ever heard anyone claim Lebron has less of a defensive burden than PG or Durant etc.

Chronz
12-27-2013, 03:30 PM
thanks for conceding defeat.

"This is an awesome post for so many different reasons."

Expect some variation of this line in the coming days

mngopher35
12-27-2013, 03:39 PM
I know what he trying to say but its stilll wrong. The burden is self inflicted because the Heat favor the offensive end more than the defensive end. This leads to padded stats on the offensive end and unnecessary doubling on the defensive end. It largely works because everyone is a help defender on the Heat and not just Lebron which is the entire point. Those are just the facts of running a smaller lineup to out score an opponent.

Lebron is no less burden than Dwayne Wade or Mario Chalmers becuase its how the defensive system is set up. No Heat player is on a defensive island when you double team the amount that they do. Lebron benefits just like the rest of Heat players with the amount of double teams they run.

I mean every team plays help defense where everyone is responsible to help/switch/shift etc. so I am not sure your point here. My point is that while everyone rotates and helps on defense they will have different roles and responsibilities. Just because one is chasing down shots and the other is battling down low does not make one have a larger burden imo.

You just admitted that the Heat play a smaller lineup to outscore opponents but still can't figure out why that might add defensive burden? The reason they get away with playing small is because they have Lebron. He helps cover up the size/strength advantage of other teams and fighting for rebounds etc. This is exactly the kind of different role that might lead to less contested shots than someone who doesn't have to worry about these things.

Pacerlive
12-27-2013, 04:30 PM
I mean every team plays help defense where everyone is responsible to help/switch/shift etc. so I am not sure your point here. My point is that while everyone rotates and helps on defense they will have different roles and responsibilities. Just because one is chasing down shots and the other is battling down low does not make one have a larger burden imo.

You just admitted that the Heat play a smaller lineup to outscore opponents but still can't figure out why that might add defensive burden? The reason they get away with playing small is because they have Lebron. He helps cover up the size/strength advantage of other teams and fighting for rebounds etc. This is exactly the kind of different role that might lead to less contested shots than someone who doesn't have to worry about these things.
Every team doesn't play help defense like the Heat. Not every team double teams the post and not every team traps the ball handler like the Heat which prevents dribble pentration.

Bosh is probably the best perimeter defending big man in the leauge when it comes to the trap and recover. This is why Lebron is able to defend less on the pick and roll screens which often times create the biggest problems for teams. He doesn't have to run around screens and chase people nearly as much as Paul George because that is how the Heat defense is designed. It limits the effectiveness of those offensive sets by trapping it and pressuring the ball handlier and jumping the passing lanes to create steals that lead to fast break points. That defensive philosophy is a lot different than what the Pacers run and its why the defensive burden is different for the wings.

This is why he guards less plays even while playing a higher pass than Paul George.

Daze9900
12-27-2013, 04:46 PM
There is no question the bigger gap is between LBJ and PG24. All you have to do is ask yourself, "Could PG24 have carried that cavalier team to the finals by himself?" The answer is no. He is still learning how to be a superstar with this going to be his first full season as a bonafide superstar. Now ask your self. Could a prime Melo with that cavalier team also make a run? Yes I don't know if they get to the finals but a top scorer and all those 3 point shooters they had and defense is very similar to the knick team from last year that was stopped short of the ECF.

Daze9900
12-27-2013, 04:48 PM
and the game is easier for PG24 right now because he has a squad around him. Nobody stops Melo but himself with a lack of effort or nights when he is doing to much hero ball or just is off.