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View Full Version : Kobe is 30-40 games away from passing Jordan (all-time points)



310Casper
12-18-2013, 04:10 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/history/leaders

It'll most likely happen at the end of this season.

What will Jordan's response/attitude on the subject be when it happens?

Surely reporters will ask him his thoughts when the day comes.

nickdymez
12-18-2013, 04:13 PM
Good post.. Jordan respects Kobe so i think if anyone where to break his record, Kobe is that guy

jerellh528
12-18-2013, 04:15 PM
That would put him at #3 all time, amazing feat.

Cal827
12-18-2013, 04:17 PM
Good post.. Jordan respects Kobe so i think if anyone where to break his record, Kobe is that guy

Lol, Jordan doesn't respect anybody but himself. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't Jordan only say that he's a top 10 shooting guard of all-time? I mean, I don't love Kobe as much as most people here (For example....), but I can't really see a list where he's past 3rd, with 90% of them having him listed at 2nd overall, behind MJ.

Jordan will probably say something like, "Well, I didn't play two years at my prime" or something like that lol

hidalgo
12-18-2013, 04:29 PM
he's played a ton more games than MJ, just like Karl Malone is way ahead of MJ in total points. if MJ wanted the all time scoring mark he'd have stayed around to do it, not retire twice. means very little. avg ppg is the far bigger deal, & MJ leads that in the playoffs & reg season

jerellh528
12-18-2013, 04:37 PM
he's played a ton more games than MJ, just like Karl Malone is way ahead of MJ in total points. if MJ wanted the all time scoring mark he'd have stayed around to do it, not retire twice. means very little. avg ppg is the far bigger deal, & MJ leads that in the playoffs & reg season

Leave it to hidalgo to bash another Kobe achievement. If Jordan cared and loved the game as much as Kobe he wouldn't have retired. Anyways 3rd all time is an amazing feat either way. It shows how great of a scorer he is, as well as longevity. Kobe is about to be the top wing/guard scorer in nba history, that's amazing and I'm glad to have witnessed almost every point.

tredigs
12-18-2013, 04:38 PM
he's played a ton more games than MJ, just like Karl Malone is way ahead of MJ in total points. if MJ wanted the all time scoring mark he'd have stayed around to do it, not retire twice. means very little. avg ppg is the far bigger deal, & MJ leads that in the playoffs & reg season

That's a fact, but Kobe's combination of high end play + durability has been the most impressive part of his legacy to me, and a record like this is a testament to it. Obviously this is a point where the MJ/Kobe debate is going to naturally be ramped up big time by the media and fans alike, but it's a decent time to just step back and respect what Kobe has given to the game. Which is a ton.

greg_ory_2005
12-18-2013, 04:39 PM
That must mean Kobe>MJ right...:p

Tony_Starks
12-18-2013, 04:44 PM
I can't wait to see the post here on that day. They will be:

"So what ( some sort of discredit)"

"Greatest ever"

Then the reasonable fans that give credit for a remarkable achievement.

Bruno
12-18-2013, 04:47 PM
he's only a few hundred points from passing him in total playoff points too. if he wasn't injured last year he'd be a lot closer. with missing last year, and the team maybe not being good enough to make the post-season this year, it might be difficult for Kobe to pass Jordan, moving into 1st in total post-season points scored.

BKLYNpigeon
12-18-2013, 04:50 PM
it will probably be like 80 games since kobe is averaging 8 points a game post injury. lol.

we all saw this coming, kobe is a hell of a player.

ManRam
12-18-2013, 05:03 PM
The man's longevity will go down as nearly unparalleled. :worthy:


30 games pins him at 19.7 points a game. 40 games is 14.8.

I'd imagine he gets there closer to 40 games from now, but who knows?

P&GRealist
12-18-2013, 05:04 PM
it will probably be like 80 games since kobe is averaging 8 points a game post injury. lol.

we all saw this coming, kobe is a hell of a player.

He's upped it to 14 a game, shooting better from the field, and says he feels his legs underneath him. I think by Christmas time we should see close to the Kobe we all know and appreciate.

nickdymez
12-18-2013, 05:09 PM
The man's longevity will go down as nearly unparalleled. :worthy:


30 games pins him at 19.7 points a game. 40 games is 14.8.

I'd imagine he gets there closer to 40 games from now, but who knows?

You seriously think Kobe will only average 14 over 40 games? I say the 30 game goal is more probabal. But who knows.

zn23
12-18-2013, 05:14 PM
Kobe is also 99 missed shots away from being the all time leader in missed shots in NBA history.

ManRam
12-18-2013, 05:20 PM
You seriously think Kobe will only average 14 over 40 games? I say the 30 game goal is more probabal. But who knows.

I think 16-17 PPG is probable :shrug: I don't think he needs to be a 20 point scorer on this team, nor do I think that's 100% beneficial right now. He'll keep having his ups and downs as well. It doesn't really matter, because unless he gets re-injured (god forbid) it's inevitable.

nickdymez
12-18-2013, 05:23 PM
I think 16-17 PPG is probable :shrug: I don't think he needs to be a 20 point scorer on this team, nor do I think that's 100% beneficial right now. He'll keep having his ups and downs as well. It doesn't really matter, because unless he gets re-injured (god forbid) it's inevitable.

I agree. He needs to keep being a facilitator and insurance policy from here on out. But 16-17 is about what i was thinking too..

ManRam
12-18-2013, 05:37 PM
I agree. He needs to keep being a facilitator and insurance policy from here on out. But 16-17 is about what i was thinking too..

17 puts him at 35 based on my math. 16 puts him at 37. Hence "closer to 40", and not 30 ;)

jerellh528
12-18-2013, 05:43 PM
I think he gets up closer to 23-26 range

D-Leethal
12-18-2013, 05:48 PM
I think he gets up closer to 23-26 range

In his own words, "I ain't hanging around at the end of my career averaging no 18 points". Kobe will be scoring 22-25ppg by seasons end. Not that its beneficial to his team, but thats Kobe - a stone cold scorer.

As for the thread, MJ retiring for two years in his prime probably had a lot to do with this, as well as Kobe coming straight outta HS.

bagwell368
12-18-2013, 05:51 PM
Kobe and his frantic fans wake up every day and say 'mirror mirror on the wall, who is the greatest one of all?' - no matter what Kobe does the rest of his career the answer will never be Kobe, and will remain Jordan for a long long time.

That's life.

jerellh528
12-18-2013, 05:53 PM
How is retiring seen as an excuse or positive? Mj didn't wanna play basketball, period. He left the game to play a different sport. We don't know what would've happened, maybe he plays get injured and his career ends. We don't really know what would've happened, but I really wish he didn't retire, if he had 2 more prime seasons added to his resume, it would be godly. Imagine 8 titles, 8 Mvps, maybe another dpoy and more stats to add to his totals. The man was a beast.

jerellh528
12-18-2013, 05:54 PM
Kobe and his frantic fans wake up every day and say 'mirror mirror on the wall, who is the greatest one of all?' - no matter what Kobe does the rest of his career the answer will never be Kobe, and will remain Jordan for a long long time.

That's life.

Hahaha that's ********. Name one logical person on earth who thinks anyone is good as Jordan.

Gibby23
12-18-2013, 05:56 PM
Kobe and his frantic fans wake up every day and say 'mirror mirror on the wall, who is the greatest one of all?' - no matter what Kobe does the rest of his career the answer will never be Kobe, and will remain Jordan for a long long time.

That's life.

Who the **** said he was better than Jordan? Stay on topic. Are you mad because you saw a combo of Shaq/Kobe and Kobe/Pau win 5 championships together while the other "storied" team found a way to pull one off to stay relevent?

nickdymez
12-18-2013, 05:57 PM
Kobe and his frantic fans wake up every day and say 'mirror mirror on the wall, who is the greatest one of all?' - no matter what Kobe does the rest of his career the answer will never be Kobe, and will remain Jordan for a long long time.

That's life.

No Laker/Kobe fan thinks that Kobe is better than Jordan

ztilzer31
12-18-2013, 06:00 PM
No Laker/Kobe fan thinks that Kobe is better than Jordan

I wish this were true, but I've personally seen 2 or 3 on this very site say that Kobe was better than Jordan. That one dude that got banned forever comes to mind... Can't remember his name though.

ztilzer31
12-18-2013, 06:01 PM
Good for Bean. It's not exactly extremely impressive considering he's also building on his record of most missed shots of all time, but stll it's not every day someone moves into the top 3 in most points scored.

jerellh528
12-18-2013, 06:11 PM
Good for Bean. It's not exactly extremely impressive considering he's also building on his record of most missed shots of all time, but stll it's not every day someone moves into the top 3 in most points scored.

It's very impressive, a guy Kobe just recently passed for missed shots, some dude named Jordan. You all want talk about how Kobe's points aren't as impressive because Kobe's played more games, Kobe also took more games to pass mj on missed shots. Of course Jordan is better than Kobe and deserves his goat status. But people love not to give Kobe credit for anything, he's one of the most hated athletes in history.

Shlumpledink
12-18-2013, 06:13 PM
That is a nice achievement.

Who will break whatever Kobe's point total ends up as? Durant? Lebron? Someone else?

BKdoubleStacker
12-18-2013, 06:38 PM
Kobe and his frantic fans wake up every day and say 'mirror mirror on the wall, who is the greatest one of all?' - no matter what Kobe does the rest of his career the answer will never be Kobe, and will remain Jordan for a long long time.

That's life.

Lol sure thing sport. Clearly that was the point of this thread. Can you point out anywhere in this thread where anyone said Kobe is better than Jordan?

DreamShaker
12-18-2013, 06:45 PM
I wish this were true, but I've personally seen 2 or 3 on this very site say that Kobe was better than Jordan. That one dude that got banned forever comes to mind... Can't remember his name though.

KO8E? He used to talk to me on AIM when that was a thing. Nice guy, but he thought Kobe was better than MJ even before the non-Shaq rings. He was pretty hardcore about it. I also remember a few others, but they were all super biased.

As far as Kobe goes, it's insane how long he has kept it up considering he came in straight from high school. One of the best ever.

slashsnake
12-18-2013, 07:11 PM
I wish this were true, but I've personally seen 2 or 3 on this very site say that Kobe was better than Jordan. That one dude that got banned forever comes to mind... Can't remember his name though.

I saw one saying things like that. Kind of showed him that Jordan could fill a couple more HOF careers with the hardware he has that Kobe doesn't yet, and he quieted down a little.

310Casper
12-18-2013, 07:14 PM
Kobe is also 99 missed shots away from being the all time leader in missed shots in NBA history.

"You miss 100% of the shots you dont take" -Wayne Gretzky

lol, all joking aside. Yes, that stat comes with the territory of being the 4th all time scoring leader. (soon to be 3rd).

Tony_Starks
12-18-2013, 07:37 PM
In his own words, "I ain't hanging around at the end of my career averaging no 18 points". Kobe will be scoring 22-25ppg by seasons end. Not that its beneficial to his team, but thats Kobe - a stone cold scorer.

As for the thread, MJ retiring for two years in his prime probably had a lot to do with this, as well as Kobe coming straight outta HS.

I don't think Kobe became a starter til like year 3 though, and even still he was clearly second option to Shaq.

Taking those factors into consideration scoring all those points is pretty impressive.

RaiderLakersA's
12-18-2013, 07:48 PM
Quite a few impressive names on that list. I don't care who you are, if your name is anywhere up there -- let alone within the top 5 -- that's an accomplishment. To have achieved that while not having a single contemporary (who is still playing) within earshot of you is astounding.

Come on, LeBron, can we get Wade in the top 25 please? Feed the man the rock!!!

beliges
12-18-2013, 07:52 PM
A truly amazing accomplishment from one of the 6-7 greatest players to ever play their sport. This accomplishment is evidence of Kobe's longevity and high level play throughout his career, something that has never been matched in the history of the league.

RaiderLakersA's
12-18-2013, 07:54 PM
I don't think Kobe became a starter til like year 3 though, and even still he was clearly second option to Shaq.

Taking those factors into consideration scoring all those points is pretty impressive.

Very true. People forget that Kobe barely saw the court his first year and wasn't even considered the 1B option in the Lakers' offensive hierarchy until 2004.

PhillyFaninLA
12-18-2013, 08:01 PM
Still no better then the 4th best Laker and may be 5th or 6th....its an accomplishment but he's not even the best the laker ever

PhillyFaninLA
12-18-2013, 08:08 PM
A truly amazing accomplishment from one of the 6-7 greatest players to ever play their sport. This accomplishment is evidence of Kobe's longevity and high level play throughout his career, something that has never been matched in the history of the league.

He's barely that high on the Lakers list let alone all time....Magic, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem all better than Kobe...During his career Duncan and Lebron are also better...so without going into the non Lakers Hall of Famers Kobe is at best 7 all time but you have a lot of non Laker hall of famers ahead of him......great accomplishment but he's not a top ten all time player

WadeKobe
12-18-2013, 08:33 PM
No Laker/Kobe fan thinks that Kobe is better than Jordan

While none may actually think so, the rhetoric for a few regularly reaches that level. In fact, Beliges and Illusionist have basically said so multiple times, whether they intend to or not.

beliges
12-18-2013, 08:37 PM
He's barely that high on the Lakers list let alone all time....Magic, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem all better than Kobe...During his career Duncan and Lebron are also better...so without going into the non Lakers Hall of Famers Kobe is at best 7 all time but you have a lot of non Laker hall of famers ahead of him......great accomplishment but he's not a top ten all time player

My statement was not a subjective one. It is one based on his career and his accomplishments. While your opinion may differ, his career speaks for itself and exposes your opinion as a subjective one.

Our biases will never be able to take away accomplishments. And that is how players should be judged. And with that said, Kobe is most definitely one of the 6-7 greatest players to ever do it.

LBJ may get there at some point with a few more titles.

beliges
12-18-2013, 08:38 PM
While none may actually think so, the rhetoric for a few regularly reaches that level. In fact, Beliges and Illusionist have basically said so multiple times, whether they intend to or not.

Sorry? I've said Kobe is better than MJ? LOL. I would love for you to find a post of mine saying that. No need to make up random stuff to post.

ManRam
12-18-2013, 08:42 PM
He's barely that high on the Lakers list let alone all time....Magic, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem all better than Kobe...During his career Duncan and Lebron are also better...so without going into the non Lakers Hall of Famers Kobe is at best 7 all time but you have a lot of non Laker hall of famers ahead of him......great accomplishment but he's not a top ten all time player

There's a good argument to be made that those players at their best were all better players than Kobe at his best. But there's a lot more that goes into legacy than just that. Longevity, winning, mystique, transcendence and so on. I do think many overrate him because of those things I listed and a disregard to my first point, but people value things differently, and there might not be a "right" way about it. If I'm teaming a team of players in their prime I'm considering Kobe later than might align with my ultimate "all-time ranking" of him.

He is high on the Lakers list because of those things I mentioned, and so be it. He's the second longest tenured player by a single team ever...that's hugely important for Lakers' legacy purposes.

Pablonovi
12-18-2013, 10:14 PM
Hahaha that's ********. Name one logical person on earth who thinks anyone is good as Jordan.

Maybe I'm not "logical" but I've got:
#1 KAJ (50 % more great seasons than MJ; 66% more Finals; the greatest & most unique shot: Sky Hook)
#2 Magic (greatest team mate ever; 9 Finals to MJ's 6)
#3 MJ
#4 Wilt
#5 LeBron (if he stays healthy, he'll keep moving up)

Pablonovi
12-18-2013, 10:31 PM
I've got Kobe in this range: #6-8,
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

jerellh528
12-18-2013, 11:45 PM
Maybe I'm not "logical" but I've got:
#1 KAJ (50 % more great seasons than MJ; 66% more Finals; the greatest & most unique shot: Sky Hook)
#2 Magic (greatest team mate ever; 9 Finals to MJ's 6)
#3 MJ
#4 Wilt
#5 LeBron (if he stays healthy, he'll keep moving up)

Okay you're right not logical lol. Magic has like zero case above Jordan, kaj I can see. Also Lebron at 5? He's not even 30 yet, you're pretty much taking a dump on the other all time legends who obviously are higher than bron at this point.

Pablonovi
12-18-2013, 11:50 PM
In this thread from this past summer in mid-August:

Historic-Milestones-at-stake-next-season
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?832722-Historic-Milestones-at-stake-next-season

I posted 3 posts:
1) Post #16: "Kobe Could Break Into All-Time 25 Assist-Men Leaderboard";

2) Post #17: "Kobe Could Reach The 7,000 Career-Rebound Mark"; and

3) Post #18: "Most Consecutive Seasons With An Improved Career Scoring Average"

Here is my introduction to each post. What followed after that were either the All-Time List (in the first two posts); or a list of all his seasons so far (in the third post). So you can either go to that post to see the All-Time List OR go to the Link I include.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
1) Post #16: "Kobe Could Break Into All-Time 25 Assist-Men Leaderboard":

N.B. Last year Kobe averaged 6.0 assists per game, tying a career high (while in his 17th season) and finishing in 32nd place All-Time in Assists. In this upcoming 2013-2014 season:

With his 113th assist, he'll become only the 30th player ever to reach the 6,000 career-assists plateau *.
With his 249th assist, he'll pass the great Scottie Pippen (the last non-guard currently above him on the list).
with his 352nd assist **, he will, during that season, have passed 7 All-Time Assists Greats including Jerry West, & break into the top 25.

Clearly of the 5 Major Stats (Pts, Rbs, Asts, Blks, Stls), Assists is the surest proof of a team-work attitude."

Right on Mamba.

* HE WILL BE THE ONLY MEMBER OF THE SUPER-EXCLUSIVE 30,000 POINTS, 6,000 REBOUND CLUB

** If he were to average 6apg, this would take him about 60 games; at 5apg it would take him about 70 games.

At that point he'd be the All-Time #2 ranked non-Point Guard (behind only Reggie Theus; who he should easily pass the following year)."

"This is the All-Time Top 50 Assist Leaders' List (from basketball-reference)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...st_career.html
- - - - - - - - - - -
2) Post #17: "Kobe Could Reach The 7,000 Career-Rebound Mark":
Kobe Could Reach The 7,000 Career-Rebound Mark

Kobe finished last season with 433 rebounds (his career 6th best year for both total rebounds and rpg) for a total of 6575 Career Rebounds, for 131st place on the All-Time List.

IF he can get 425 next year, he'd reach the 7,000 Career-Rebound Mark and end up Career-Wise in 108 or 109th place (depending on Paul Pierce, who is currently 76 rebounds ahead of Kobe).

With Kobe's 97th rebound, he'll pass MJ on the All-Time Rebound List.
With 7,000 Career-Rebounds he'd be #3 All-Time Guard, behind only:
#1 Jason Kidd 8,725 (#58 overall);
#2 Oscar Robertson 7,804 (#78 overall); then ...

#3 Kobe Bryant 7,000 (#109th overall, ?? in 2013-2014 season?)

Once he reaches 7,000, he'll only need about 137 more to break into the 100 All-Time Top Rebounders List (which includes only 3 guards); another great achievement which he will easily reach the following year.

Here's the All-Time (ABA-NBA) Career-Rebounds Leaders' List (from basketball-reference):
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...rb_career.html
- - - - - - - - -
3) Post #18: "Most Consecutive Seasons With An Improved Career Scoring Average":

I pointed out that IF Kobe could average 25.53+ ppg this year, it would be his 17th consecutive season having improved his career ppg. He already holds the record for this with 16 consecutive seasons. It is not likely at all that he'll get his average this season up to the necessary 25.53 ppg to extend his record; but it's not impossible.

ThaDubs
12-19-2013, 12:13 AM
Jordan played 15 season, Kobe is in his 18th.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 12:24 AM
That's a fact, but Kobe's combination of high end play + durability has been the most impressive part of his legacy to me, and a record like this is a testament to it. Obviously this is a point where the MJ/Kobe debate is going to naturally be ramped up big time by the media and fans alike, but it's a decent time to just step back and respect what Kobe has given to the game. Which is a ton.

yeppers. Though the MJ/Kobe debate ends fast after all time numbers.

jerellh528
12-19-2013, 12:24 AM
Jordan played 15 season, Kobe is in his 18th.

Great point, it's amazing how long Kobe has been able to sustain greatness and redefine his game year after year. It's a testament to his unparalleled work ethic.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 12:25 AM
Maybe I'm not "logical" but I've got:
#1 KAJ (50 % more great seasons than MJ; 66% more Finals; the greatest & most unique shot: Sky Hook)
#2 Magic (greatest team mate ever; 9 Finals to MJ's 6)
#3 MJ
#4 Wilt
#5 LeBron (if he stays healthy, he'll keep moving up)

wow

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 12:26 AM
Great point, it's amazing how long Kobe has been able to sustain greatness and redefine his game year after year. It's a testament to his unparalleled work ethic.

for sure. It's literally the reason he is top 10 ever in my book. His peak has been bested by more than 10 players, but jesus dude, how the hell are you a top 5 player for 15 years?

Matter.
12-19-2013, 12:26 AM
Jordan played 15 season, Kobe is in his 18th.

Kobe came off the bench in his first three

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 12:27 AM
Okay you're right not logical lol. Magic has like zero case above Jordan, kaj I can see. Also Lebron at 5? He's not even 30 yet, you're pretty much taking a dump on the other all time legends who obviously are higher than bron at this point.

statistically, Bron's peak is already top 3. But I do agree, he isn't top 5 YET.

Matter of time...

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 12:28 AM
Kobe came off the bench in his first three

first 2. And he was playing tons of minutes year 2. As impressive as Kobe's point total is, lets not forget Jordan did it in far less games. Fact.

jsthornton7
12-19-2013, 02:21 AM
If you guys wanna talk about peaks, nobody will ever get near Wilt's peak season of 50.4 PPG and 25.7 RPG. And who knows how many blocks per game the man had...

Oscar Robertson would come in 2nd with 30.8 PPG, 12.5 RPG, and 11.4 APG.

Pablonovi
12-19-2013, 02:35 AM
wow

Hey Hawk,
Mind elaborating a wee bit more? hehe

Pablonovi
12-19-2013, 02:50 AM
If you guys wanna talk about peaks, nobody will ever get near Wilt's peak season of 50.4 PPG and 25.7 RPG. And who knows how many blocks per game the man had...

Oscar Robertson would come in 2nd with 30.8 PPG, 12.5 RPG, and 11.4 APG.

Hey jsthornton7,
re Wilt: he has the two highest individual seasons in PER too (his best PER year was actually 1962-1963, the year AFTER the year you mention, 1961-1962.) So, one could say that Wilt himself not only got near that year, he beat it!

He also has the highest combined PER for any 3-year period (including the next year after that (63-64), so those 3 years cover: 1962-1964); and his average for those 3 years was almost (though not quite) equal to 61-62.

Wilt has the Top 2 PERs ever; and 3 of the Top 6 PERs ever. (The other 3: MJ has two, LeBron has one).

re: O. He got those numbers in 1962, his second year. But, similarly to Wilt, that was NOT his best PER year. He had a decidedly better PER two years later, but the year in between those two, 1963-64, crushed both of them.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-19-2013, 03:37 AM
If you guys wanna talk about peaks, nobody will ever get near Wilt's peak season of 50.4 PPG and 25.7 RPG. And who knows how many blocks per game the man had...

Oscar Robertson would come in 2nd with 30.8 PPG, 12.5 RPG, and 11.4 APG.

one word: PACE

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:04 AM
If you guys wanna talk about peaks, nobody will ever get near Wilt's peak season of 50.4 PPG and 25.7 RPG. And who knows how many blocks per game the man had...

Oscar Robertson would come in 2nd with 30.8 PPG, 12.5 RPG, and 11.4 APG.

I have posted this before, but if we factor in pace, and the sheer amount of minutes Wilt played, those numbers are not the same.

For instance, lets say Kevin Love played in an era with 130-135 possessions a game, and sat 40 seconds a game.

47.9 ppg
26 rpg
7.86 apg

those would be his numbers in those circumstances. Now, the sheer fact that Wilt could play 47+ mpg and never wear out is something to behold, you simply get where I am coming from.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:07 AM
Hey Hawk,
Mind elaborating a wee bit more? hehe

simply put, Nobody dominated more than Jordan, whether you use the eye test, or pure stats. He completely raped his era, coming into the league as some of the greatest were enjoying their primes, and establishing himself as individually better than any of them. His advanced numbers take a crap on everyone. He is 6-0 in the finals. He even left in the peak of his career for a year and a half, and has the resume to beat anyone.

I am going with KAJ as my 2nd best player ever. Wilt as my third. And I think Magic is top 5. For now. But how can you even mention Magic with Jordan? As great as Magic was, there is a pretty clear drop from the top 3 to the next 3.

jsthornton7
12-19-2013, 06:14 AM
I have posted this before, but if we factor in pace, and the sheer amount of minutes Wilt played, those numbers are not the same.

For instance, lets say Kevin Love played in an era with 130-135 possessions a game, and sat 40 seconds a game.

47.9 ppg
26 rpg
7.86 apg

those would be his numbers in those circumstances. Now, the sheer fact that Wilt could play 47+ mpg and never wear out is something to behold, you simply get where I am coming from.

I get where you're coming from, but consistency and stamina to play at that pace would be a big part of the equation when it comes to maintaining that productivity.

FreakaNashur
12-19-2013, 06:31 AM
Good post.. Jordan respects Kobe so i think if anyone where to break his record, Kobe is that guy

what does respect haveto do with it...its not like kobe has to ask permission to break it.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:18 PM
I get where you're coming from, but consistency and stamina to play at that pace would be a big part of the equation when it comes to maintaining that productivity.

oh no doubt. Love would fall over and die if he was asked to play that many minutes by game 10. My point was, just throwing Wilts gaudy numbers out there without context don't work.

jsthornton7
12-19-2013, 04:38 PM
oh no doubt. Love would fall over and die if he was asked to play that many minutes by game 10. My point was, just throwing Wilts gaudy numbers out there without context don't work.

For sure, I get your point.

Tony_Starks
12-19-2013, 04:50 PM
Maybe I'm not "logical" but I've got:
#1 KAJ (50 % more great seasons than MJ; 66% more Finals; the greatest & most unique shot: Sky Hook)
#2 Magic (greatest team mate ever; 9 Finals to MJ's 6)
#3 MJ
#4 Wilt
#5 LeBron (if he stays healthy, he'll keep moving up)


Damn bro. People kill me on my list because I have Magic #1, but even I can't put MJ at 3. And Lebron top 5 is completely premature. It's your list though, it's all subjective.

Incidentally mine is

Magic
MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Russel
Olajuwon

310Casper
12-19-2013, 04:54 PM
Update: Kobe out for 6 weeks.

He may never pass Jordan's record afterall...who knows.. :(

Rain City
12-19-2013, 05:13 PM
simply put, Nobody dominated more than Jordan, whether you use the eye test, or pure stats. He completely raped his era, coming into the league as some of the greatest were enjoying their primes, and establishing himself as individually better than any of them. His advanced numbers take a crap on everyone. He is 6-0 in the finals. He even left in the peak of his career for a year and a half, and has the resume to beat anyone.

I am going with KAJ as my 2nd best player ever. Wilt as my third. And I think Magic is top 5. For now. But how can you even mention Magic with Jordan? As great as Magic was, there is a pretty clear drop from the top 3 to the next 3.

:clap:

I was watching LeBron last night, and often times I watch him and say, LeBron is better than MJ, but LeBron cant match MJ's legacy and many statistical feats.

than I watched MJ youtube for 30 minutes and there is not a doubt in my mind MJ would have his way with LeBron today. you have to understand and remember history and not get caught up in flavor of the month perception. I hate the MJ and LeBron or kobe debates, the man's legacy cant be touched. go look at the stats in hole, turn on the tape, sure LeBron is 260lbs and nearly rips the rim off every time he dunks and has great court vision, but MJ's first step, agilily, balance, feel, pull up, intelligence is all on another level.

MJ took a team from the gutter and made them a champ while being the league's undisputed best player, and becoming the greatest scorer of all time. he retired after a 3peat.... twice........ and had to reinvent his game doing it. this trumps anything they can ever do.... kobe and LeBron will likely go down in the same breath as Russell, wilt, bird, KAJ, and magic... but MJ cannot be touched.

THE MTL
12-19-2013, 08:57 PM
MJ shouldnt have retired twice. He would easily have had the all-time record.

smiddy012
12-19-2013, 10:17 PM
Leave it to hidalgo to bash another Kobe achievement. If Jordan cared and loved the game as much as Kobe he wouldn't have retired. Anyways 3rd all time is an amazing feat either way. It shows how great of a scorer he is, as well as longevity. Kobe is about to be the top wing/guard scorer in nba history, that's amazing and I'm glad to have witnessed almost every point.

Well good thing there is more to being great at basketball than caring apparently... Kobe is the GOAT at caring lol good for him!

jerellh528
12-19-2013, 10:20 PM
Well good thing there is more to being great at basketball than caring apparently... Kobe is the GOAT at caring lol good for him!

Yea there is lots more, which Kobe has perfected. But caring enough to perfect your craft year after year is huge as well.

P&GRealist
12-19-2013, 10:22 PM
Someone should change the title to 70-80 games away.

DillyDill
12-19-2013, 10:23 PM
simply put, Nobody dominated more than Jordan, whether you use the eye test, or pure stats. He completely raped his era, coming into the league as some of the greatest were enjoying their primes, and establishing himself as individually better than any of them. His advanced numbers take a crap on everyone. He is 6-0 in the finals. He even left in the peak of his career for a year and a half, and has the resume to beat anyone.

I am going with KAJ as my 2nd best player ever. Wilt as my third. And I think Magic is top 5. For now. But how can you even mention Magic with Jordan? As great as Magic was, there is a pretty clear drop from the top 3 to the next 3.

How isn't Wilt the 2nd Greatest for you guys with his Godly like stats?

smiddy012
12-19-2013, 10:36 PM
How isn't Wilt the 2nd Greatest for you guys with his Godly like stats?

Something tells me you haven't read through this thread....

DillyDill
12-19-2013, 10:39 PM
Something tells me you haven't read through this thread....

Lol naw I haven't but I've been looking at Wilts stats and they are insane. He averaged 50-20 for a season how isn't that 2nd greatest right there?

ManRam
12-19-2013, 10:45 PM
Well good thing there is more to being great at basketball than caring apparently... Kobe is the GOAT at caring lol good for him!

:laugh:

There's a lot of weird criteria that creeps into play when Kobe's legacy is being discussed.

Care-factor, yeah, he's a 10. Fo sho!

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 11:46 PM
How isn't Wilt the 2nd Greatest for you guys with his Godly like stats?

because he played in an inflated era of pace, and simply didn't put up the ridiculous amount of accolades/awards KAJ did. Look, I can totally accept Wilt at #2, but I have KAJ.

jsthornton7
12-20-2013, 12:53 AM
because he played in an inflated era of pace, and simply didn't put up the ridiculous amount of accolades/awards KAJ did. Look, I can totally accept Wilt at #2, but I have KAJ.

I get that, but if you can run for 60 minutes at an average of 20 mph and I can only run at an average of 20mph for 30 minutes and then I start to fatigue and my next 30 minutes is slower, it is not the same thing just because at one point we both averaged 20 mph.

Yes, pace is a factor, but you also have to factor in the stamina and consistency involved to play at that pace for longer.

IKnowHoops
12-20-2013, 01:12 AM
Its crazy that Kobe took this long to catch Jordan seeing as how he shot more and passed and rebounded less.

Pablonovi
12-21-2013, 06:07 PM
How isn't Wilt the 2nd Greatest for you guys with his Godly like stats?

Hey DillyDill,
IF one just goes by "Godly like stats"; then why isn't Wilt #1 for you?

Nobody on anybody's GOAT All-Time Top Top List can compete with Wilt in that regards.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-21-2013, 06:57 PM
Will he even play 30-40 more games?

Pablonovi
12-21-2013, 07:26 PM
Damn bro. People kill me on my list because I have Magic #1, but even I can't put MJ at 3. And Lebron top 5 is completely premature. It's your list though, it's all subjective.

Incidentally mine is

Magic
MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Russel
Olajuwon

Hey Tony Starks,
Your list and my list are not that far apart; or put with more "positive" words; are pretty similar.

You and I both have Magic over MJ. I say because Magic WAS the greatest TEAMmate ever AND his 4 Finals (appearances without the Chip) for me are worth more than MJ's one more Finals Chip.

I have KAJ over MJ. PSD's bagwell says the only player he'd even consider theoretically possibly better than MJ is KAJ. He doesn't see it KAJ over MJ. I do however. Why?

KAJ's "CASE OVER MJ":
1) INDIVIDUAL ACCOMPLISMENTS: GREAT YEARS: KAJ = 17; MJ = 11. (50% MORE!)

KAJ had 17 great years; MJ had 11. KAJ had 50% more great years (that, imo, is HUGE).

1A) ALL-NBA TEAMS:
KAJ had 10 ALL-NBA FIRST-TEAMs;
MJ had 8 ALL-NBA FIRST-TEAMs.
That's 20% more.

KAJ had 5 ALL-NBA 2ND-TEAMs;
MJ had 2 ALL-NBA FIRST-TEAMs.
That's 2.5 times as much, that's huge.

Combining the ALL-NBA 1st Teams & 2nd Teams, that's
KAJ = 15;
MJ = 10.
5 Great Years More = 50% MORE!

1B) NBA Top-10 Years for PER:
KAJ finished in the Top 10 for PER in 17 (consecutive) years!
MJ finished in the Top 10 for PER in 11 years.

Again, KAJ has MJ by 50%; (that, imo, is HUGE).
- - - - - - - - - -
B2) INDIVIDUAL ACCOMPLISMENT: Number Of Years NBA All-Defensive Team:
KAJ = 11 (First-Team = 5; 2nd-Team = 6)
MJ = 9 (First-Team = 9; 2nd-Team = 0)

MJ has 50% more 1st-Teams; so, while KAJ has 2 more overall (22%); MJ wins this.

B3) INDIVIDUAL ACCOMPLISMENT: Number Of Full Years Played: KAJ = 20; MJ = 13.
KAJ played 20 years.
MJ played 13 (he played in 2 more; he played less than 1/4 of that year).
So that's
KAJ = 20 Years;
MJ = 13 Years. again 50% more years. How can that not count for a lot.

B4) INDIVIDUAL ACCOMPLISHMENT: SKY HOOK.
This was both the most unique and most unstoppable shot ever. (imo, this too is HUGE).
- - - - - - - - - - -
3) TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS: NBA FINALS:
KAJ has the same number of rings, 6, as MJ; BUT 4 MORE FINALS (that, imo, is HUGE).
MJ, in his other years in the playoffs did NOT manage to get to the Finals.
FINALS:
KAJ = 10
MJ = 6
KAJ WINS THIS BIG! (66.7% MORE, imo, this is HUGE).

- - - - - - -
In my opinion, in his 11 Great years, MJ WAS more dominant than KAJ was in his 11 Greatest Years;
BUT KAJ (in addition to be NOT way behind MJ in those years) HAD 5-6 additional Great Years.
imo, MJ's increased dominance per year; is outweighed by KAJ's 50% more years of Greatness.

DillyDill
12-21-2013, 07:56 PM
Hey DillyDill,
IF one just goes by "Godly like stats"; then why isn't Wilt #1 for you?

Nobody on anybody's GOAT All-Time Top Top List can compete with Wilt in that regards.

I can make a pretty strong argument for him being the GOAT. Only Two things everybody can say is

1. He doesn't have the accolades to stack up against MJ

2. The era of talent he played in wasn't the greatest of competition

Pablonovi
12-21-2013, 07:59 PM
[SNIP]. But how can you even mention Magic with Jordan? As great as Magic was, there is a pretty clear drop from the top 3 to the next 3.

Hey Hawk,
I put Magic over MJ for 3 reasons:

1) TEAMWORK: Magic was THE greatest TEAMmate ever; and

2) FINALS: Magic made it to 9 Finals. imo, 5 Chips & 4 other Finals is better than 6 Chips & 0 other Finals.
In other words, Magic = MJ for 5 Chips each. Then MJ has 1 more Chip, while Magic has 4 more Finals. imo, Magic's 4 Finals (without a Chip) are more valuable than the 1 Finals (w/ Chip); and

3) PLAYOFFS: Magic's teams advanced more & had more success in the Playoffs (than did MJ's teams).

Pablonovi
12-21-2013, 08:16 PM
Damn bro. People kill me on my list because I have Magic #1, but even I can't put MJ at 3. And Lebron top 5 is completely premature. It's your list though, it's all subjective.

Incidentally mine is

Magic
MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Russel
Olajuwon

Hey Tony Starks,
Pretty good list.
I've got LeBron #5 All-Time because he already has had 10.3 GREAT years with 4 Finals appearances (including taking, imo, THE worst supporting cast ever, to the Finals) and 2 Chips.

In my book, that puts him ahead of: Duncan, Bird, Olajuwon (who only had 2 Finals), and Russell (who, as an individual player, I have as #16).

imo, the only guys who have had equal or better peaks are:
MJ (who only had 11 Great Years).
Shaq
KAJ
and I have KAJ and MJ ahead of LeBron.
I have Shaq behind LeBron for two reasons:
TEAM-WORK and Defense. I don't think Shaq was nearly as good a team mate as has been LeBron. In terms of Defense, I have LeBron slightly ahead.

I also have Magic ahead of LeBron; but NOT for Peak.
Magic played 13 seasons; but he wasn't great at all in his last season (only played half the games); and in one other season, he only played half the games. So Magic had 11.5 Great seasons. I consider LeBron's 10.3 to be Greater than Magic's 11.5; BUT, Magic still has him overall because of Teamwork.

Until recently, I had GOAT All-Time #s 5-8 as:
Kobe
Shaq
LeBron
Duncan

I've moved up LeBron (perhaps prematurely) ahead of the other three because he's been more dominant, imo, than them.

Pablonovi
12-21-2013, 10:14 PM
I can make a pretty strong argument for him being the GOAT. Only Two things everybody can say is

1. He doesn't have the accolades to stack up against MJ

2. The era of talent he played in wasn't the greatest of competition

Hey DillyDill,
I agree that a very strong argument can be made for Wilt being the GOAT.
1) imo Wilt was more dominant in his era than any player has been (in their own era) since then. Only Mikan was more era-dominant; but that was pre-integration, so does not really count.

2) While I agree that Wilt's era wasn't the greatest competition (12-man deep per team); I think that his era was very "top-heavy". Guys like: West, O, Pettit, Baylor & Russell were high quality guys. So, being so dominant compared to them is saying a lot.

3) THE ONE argument against him was Chips. I maintain that that is mostly an argument IN HIS FAVOR. Why? Because the Team that won 11 of 13 Chips, was the Celtics' All-Star Team. They had, by far imo, the greatest comparative concentration of talent on one team ever. AND they had THE BEST COACH.

I am sure that had Wilt had a coach of equal quality, his teams would have won a bunch more Chips (after all they lost a bunch of 7 game series - which means that the teams were very evenly matched; and they lost some very close games.) In all those series of Wilt's team vs the Celtics All-Stars, Wilt was THE BEST player and almost good enough to overcome tremendous odds.

IF Wilt could have picked up some of those Chips, then I think he would be ranked the GOAT.

Generally, I don't see a huge gap amongst "my" top 4 GOAT candidates: KAJ, Magic, MJ & Wilt. Very strong arguments could be made for each of them as #1; and for any order of the 4.

DillyDill
12-22-2013, 01:46 AM
Hey DillyDill,
I agree that a very strong argument can be made for Wilt being the GOAT.
1) imo Wilt was more dominant in his era than any player has been (in their own era) since then. Only Mikan was more era-dominant; but that was pre-integration, so does not really count.

2) While I agree that Wilt's era wasn't the greatest competition (12-man deep per team); I think that his era was very "top-heavy". Guys like: West, O, Pettit, Baylor & Russell were high quality guys. So, being so dominant compared to them is saying a lot.

3) THE ONE argument against him was Chips. I maintain that that is mostly an argument IN HIS FAVOR. Why? Because the Team that won 11 of 13 Chips, was the Celtics' All-Star Team. They had, by far imo, the greatest comparative concentration of talent on one team ever. AND they had THE BEST COACH.

I am sure that had Wilt had a coach of equal quality, his teams would have won a bunch more Chips (after all they lost a bunch of 7 game series - which means that the teams were very evenly matched; and they lost some very close games.) In all those series of Wilt's team vs the Celtics All-Stars, Wilt was THE BEST player and almost good enough to overcome tremendous odds.

IF Wilt could have picked up some of those Chips, then I think he would be ranked the GOAT.

Generally, I don't see a huge gap amongst "my" top 4 GOAT candidates: KAJ, Magic, MJ & Wilt. Very strong arguments could be made for each of them as #1; and for any order of the 4.

Excellent reasoning Pablo it succs that the chips have to be held against him. It's not his fault he wasn't surrounded by Allstars at every position including bench. But atleast he walked away with 2 than none, plus no man in history has the GODLY numbers he has