PDA

View Full Version : Lebron 105 points away from passing Larry Bird as 30th all time scorer



JEDean89
12-18-2013, 02:12 PM
So we all know Lebron is a monster but few us really appreciate how amazing of a scorer he truly is. He is now 105 points away from passing Larry Bird on the all time scoring list at 21,791. At almost 29 years old, this is an insane accomplishment. The only seasons he didn't put up 2,000 points were his rookie seasons and the lockout shortened season. Melo, who many regard as the better scorer has only scored 2000+ in a season once, and does it on no where near the FG%. He needs just 16,701 more and he was the record. I personally think he ends up just behind Kareem, because injuries are likely and he probably won't be scoring 27 a game when he's 36 but if he can play with a real PG, a pass first one like Rondo, he could average 35+ ppg, and I personally think that would be a ton of fun to watch. If he did that he could be the #1.

all time scoring list
http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPTSQuery.html?topic=4&stat=1

lebron stats
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1966/lebron-james

P&GRealist
12-18-2013, 02:21 PM
Good for him. I remember that one season where he averaged like 31.4 ppg. That was ridiculous and I think he was only in his 3rd season in the NBA.

He should easily finish top 3 all-time, I don't think he'll pass Kareem, but will come close to Karl Malone definitely.


But I wonder if he'll actually play tonight in a big marquee matchup on nationally televised game. I know he has a bum ankle, but I hope he's not so "Stats" conscious and sits down because he doesn't want his stats to suffer.

Heck even when Kobe got undercut and injured last yr on his ankle by Dahntay Jones, he couldn't even walk but yet played the first quarter of the next game at Indiana, which gave his team that morale boost and the Lakers won the game the rest of the way.

Guess how many points he finished away with that night? .... 0


So I hope LeBron puts on a show and doesn't worry about stats as even at less than 100%, he can be a morale boost for his team against their biggest rivals tonight and still be able to produce points as he climbing that scoring chart list.

phantasyyy
12-18-2013, 02:34 PM
Good for him. I remember that one season where he averaged like 31.4 ppg. That was ridiculous and I think he was only in his 3rd season in the NBA.

He should easily finish top 3 all-time, I don't think he'll pass Kareem, but will come close to Karl Malone definitely.


But I wonder if he'll actually play tonight in a big marquee matchup on nationally televised game. I know he has a bum ankle, but I hope he's not so "Stats" conscious and sits down because he doesn't want his stats to suffer.

Heck even when Kobe got undercut and injured last yr on his ankle by Dahntay Jones, he couldn't even walk but yet played the first quarter of the next game at Indiana, which gave his team that morale boost and the Lakers won the game the rest of the way.

Guess how many points he finished away with that night? .... 0


So I hope LeBron puts on a show and doesn't worry about stats as even at less than 100%, he can be a morale boost for his team against their biggest rivals tonight and still be able to produce points as he climbing that scoring chart list.

lol what does kobe have to do with this thread

bucketss
12-18-2013, 02:37 PM
kobe fans can't help themselves :)

JEDean89
12-18-2013, 02:38 PM
I think what may be craziest is that he could win the all time scoring title while averaging around 7 assists per game for his career.

Mr_Jones
12-18-2013, 03:14 PM
lol what does kobe have to do with this thread

He was using it as an example of what could happen with Lebron since he is coming off of an injury, just like Kobe last year. You guys don't think too much, do you?

Heatcheck
12-18-2013, 03:21 PM
so if he doesn't play, it means hes "stats conscious"? how about conscious of the fact that if he gets hurt long term the team is ****ed?
pretty presumptuous on your part

Tony_Starks
12-18-2013, 03:43 PM
The same Larry Bird who's career was cut short by injuries? Ok, good for him....

nickdymez
12-18-2013, 03:47 PM
Omg

P&GRealist
12-18-2013, 03:53 PM
so if he doesn't play, it means hes "stats conscious"? how about conscious of the fact that if he gets hurt long term the team is ****ed?
pretty presumptuous on your part

No, I simply want to see the best player in the league play in the game between the 2 best teams in the league. I would be highly disappointed as an NBA fan if he chooses not to play. Whatever may be the case.

Heatcheck
12-18-2013, 04:11 PM
No, I simply want to see the best player in the league play in the game between the 2 best teams in the league. I would be highly disappointed as an NBA fan if he chooses not to play. Whatever may be the case.

Agreed, just not at the expense of something more serious as a result of favoring a twisted or sprained or whatever ankle.

archdevil84
12-18-2013, 04:15 PM
even when lebron has a very sore ankle he will probably go for like 20-5-5-1-1

P&GRealist
12-18-2013, 05:08 PM
even when lebron has a very sore ankle he will probably go for like 20-5-5-1-1

Tonight he must go for 30+ against the elite Pacers defense. I see Bosh struggling against West while Wade gets shut down by Stephenson. LeBron needs to score big tonight despite the bad ankle if Miami wants to score enough points. I predict a 33(pt)-9(reb)-5(asst)-3(stl)-0(blk) statline.

ManRam
12-18-2013, 05:18 PM
The contrast in how Kobe fans react to this impressive feat and Kobe's impressive feat is quite ripe. ;)

And vice versa, of course. Gotta love it. No reasons to let biases stand in the way of awe.


Pretty impressive. We don't quite think of LeBron as the great scorer, even though he very clearly is, probably because there's so much more to his game. But he is 3rd all time in PPG. Obviously that will go down, and it has since he's joined the Heat and will eventually do so when his career starts its downward slide, but in his first 11 seasons he's averaged 27.5 points a game which stands above many of the perceived superior scorers of all time. He was the youngest to 2,000 points. He was the 8th fastest to get there too (ahead of Shaq, Bird, Kobe, Malone, etc.).

Yes, Bird missed a lot of time and had a shortened career (the same could be said about MJ in the Kobe/MJ thread ;)). That's the inherent flaw in obsessing over counting stats. But Bird did play in 897 games in his career, and LeBron is a full 100 games less than that.

BklynKnicks3
12-18-2013, 05:26 PM
that's nice to bad he can neve rbe better then Bird who was a killer Imagine Bird running to another team. The Celtics won 29 games when they drafted Bird he made them a 61 win team a rookie unlike Magic who walked in to a 47 win team and MVP Kareem

Mr_Jones
12-18-2013, 05:39 PM
that's nice to bad he can neve rbe better then Bird who was a killer Imagine Bird running to another team. The Celtics won 29 games when they drafted Bird he made them a 61 win team a rookie unlike Magic who walked in to a 47 win team and MVP Kareem

lol cmon

bagwell368
12-18-2013, 05:42 PM
That's pretty cool, but he's behind Bird in:

Assists: 237
Steals: 199
Rebounds: 3259
3 PT %: .376 > .339
Rings: 3 > 2

It's pretty close now... let's see what happens with LBJ's health before we can place him all time.

JasonJohnHorn
12-18-2013, 05:55 PM
That is amazing.

The thing with LBJ, is that he started young. Straight out of highschool, so he can afford to have a lower scoring average than Kareem and still mange to get the career points record playing to the same age as Kareem.

LBJ seems like a guy who is very concerned about legacy. His conditioning is amazing and it honestly seems like he is still getting better. I see LBJ on top of the scoring list when he retires and I don't doubt that he can average 25 points a game through to the age of 35. If LBJ can post 22 000 points in his first ten season, I've no doubt that if he plays to 40, he can score 18 000 in his last 11. That would make him the first player to score 40 000 career points.

He can do it barring injury.

koreancabbage
12-18-2013, 07:32 PM
that's nice to bad he can neve rbe better then Bird who was a killer Imagine Bird running to another team. The Celtics won 29 games when they drafted Bird he made them a 61 win team a rookie unlike Magic who walked in to a 47 win team and MVP Kareem

"he can never be better than Bird bc he was was a killer" nice correlation. i dont know what u have against Lebron but youre simply blind as Lebron will go down as a top player in NBA history.

i mean what spurred this hate: were you a cavs fan? i dont even think Cavs fans are this hateful and dumb.

FlashBolt
12-19-2013, 01:20 AM
LeBron has already passed Bird. You are a fool if you think otherwise.

TylerSL
12-19-2013, 01:33 AM
even when lebron has a very sore ankle he will probably go for like 20-5-5-1-1

close 24/9/7/3/0

TylerSL
12-19-2013, 01:34 AM
The same Larry Bird who's career was cut short by injuries? Ok, good for him....

true but it is still remarkable to be 28 years old and be 30th on the all time scoring list.

FlashBolt
12-19-2013, 01:40 AM
The same Larry Bird that had the greatest if not one of the greatest post player?

TylerSL
12-19-2013, 02:18 AM
I think Lebron will be able to continue at least this production (25-7-7) until he reaches 34-35 years old. I do not find this hard to assume barring injury. He's so strong and durable he should easily still be doing this into his early to mid 30's. Barring injury these are the point totals Lebron could realistically have by the end of the next few seasons. He currently has 21,711 points.

2013-2014 23,000+ (age 28-29)

2014-2015 25,000+ (age 29-30)

2015-2016 27,000+ (age 30-31)

2016-2017 29,000+ (age 31-32)

2017-2018 31,000+ (age 32-33)

2018-2019 33,000+ (age 33-34)

By the age of 34 it is realistic to believe that Lebron would start to see a decline in his career, but being as strong and durable as he is, he could realistically play until he is 40. He could realistically play another 6 years after the 2018-2019 NBA Season, and if he at least averages 25 points a game for the rest of his prime he would only need to score 7,000 points to get to 40,000 career points, and again, barring injury he'll play til he's 40.

Nothing is impossible, but I do not see Lebron getting a big season ending injury anytime soon. Lebron is a workhorse, but Kobe and MJ were complete workhorses in their primes as well and never had big injuries. Kobe only received a big injury several years past his prime and Jordan got hurt when he was still fairly young, and Lebron is much bigger and stronger than both of them. I expect Lebron to at least score 2,000 points a season for at least the next 6 seasons. He would then be 34 years old with 33,000-35,000 points.

I think Lebron will play another 6 years after that and end his career with 45,000 points or so. 6 years after that his age would be 35-40 and he would not only score less, but play less. And injury could be a factor, but I doubt it would be much of one. If he has 35,000 points by the time he is 34, me predicting he ends his career with 45,000 points means he would only have to score 10,000 points in the 6 years I predict he will still play. I also believe Lebron will end his career with over 10,000 rebounds, 10,000 assists, 2,000 steals, and 1,000 blocks.

Lebron's current career stat line-21,711 points, 5,724 rebounds, 5,465 assists, 1,360 steals, 657 blocks.

very easily what Lebron's career stat line could be-45,000+ points, 10,000+ rebounds, 10,000+ assists, 2,000+ steals, 1,000+ blocks.

Sure Lebron started early and his per game stats will suffer later in his career, but those stats would be second to none. He would still need a few more rings and a couple more MVP's to truly be considered the greatest of all time. But if he does indeed end his career with the stat line shown above, wins 2-3 more rings (again, not out of the question) and wins 2-3 more MVP's (should be expected), than 5-6 rings, 6-7 MVP's with that stat line could/should give him the title of Greatest Of All Time.

Winning more titles will be much harder for Lebron than breaking statistical records.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:21 AM
that's nice to bad he can neve rbe better then Bird who was a killer Imagine Bird running to another team. The Celtics won 29 games when they drafted Bird he made them a 61 win team a rookie unlike Magic who walked in to a 47 win team and MVP Kareem

If Bron would have been drafted to a team with multiple future HOF'ers on it ready to win titles, preeeeeeeeeeetty sure he wouldn't have gone anywhere. And if Bird would have been drafted to a team with no all star talent in that day, when nobody left in FA, pretty sure we aren't talking about him as a top 10 player ever.

But I digress..

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:22 AM
honestly, I think LeBron has already assumed the #1 SF ranking of all time. I think he passed Bird in last years season/playoff run.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:23 AM
The same Larry Bird who's career was cut short by injuries? Ok, good for him....

James has played over 100 games less. Your point?

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:25 AM
That's pretty cool, but he's behind Bird in:

Assists: 237
Steals: 199
Rebounds: 3259
3 PT %: .376 > .339
Rings: 3 > 2

It's pretty close now... let's see what happens with LBJ's health before we can place him all time.

He is also behind Bird in over 100 games played. In the same amount of games, LeBron is going to destroy his numbers (outside rebounds, but LeBron is far more of a perimeter player than Larry was). As far as the titles, even with the last 3 years, do we really want to dissect who had more help in the 990 games Bird played versus the 880 LeBron has played.....

Chronz
12-19-2013, 05:55 AM
Bron hasn't passed Bird yet.

bagwell368
12-19-2013, 08:26 AM
LeBron has already passed Bird. You are a fool if you think otherwise.

If LBJ never plays another game I'm afraid you're wrong.

bagwell368
12-19-2013, 08:30 AM
If LBJ never plays another game I'm afraid you're wrong.


The same Larry Bird that had the greatest if not one of the greatest post player?

You mean McHale? The black hole. Back up forward his first few years, fairly early end to his career (in particular of his dominance after he broke his foot). He had two great years where he did everything (but pass) in his career, and another four-five fine years. Not a great rebounder either BTW.

I notice LBJ won nothing w/o Wade and Bosh at his side.

So the point is?

bagwell368
12-19-2013, 08:47 AM
If LBJ never plays another game I'm afraid you're wrong.


If Bron would have been drafted to a team with multiple future HOF'ers on it ready to win titles, preeeeeeeeeeetty sure he wouldn't have gone anywhere. And if Bird would have been drafted to a team with no all star talent in that day, when nobody left in FA, pretty sure we aren't talking about him as a top 10 player ever.

But I digress..

Parish and McHale were not there, nor DJ. Just Maxwell, and an aging Tiny and beat Cowens who retired the next year. Take a look at Bird's rookie roster again.

Starters:

Cowens (.121 WS/48; last year not counting silly comeback with Bucks) / Robey (stiff)
Maxwell (unrecognized stud for a short period)
Bird
Ford (journey man)
Tiny (his only decent year post achilles)

A rookie with a .182 WS/48, 8th in win shares, named 1st team All NBA, made the ASG, 4th in MVP voting is having a major impact w/ or w/o McHale, Parish, and DJ.

bagwell368
12-19-2013, 10:12 AM
If LBJ never plays another game I'm afraid you're wrong.


He is also behind Bird in over 100 games played. In the same amount of games, LeBron is going to destroy his numbers (outside rebounds, but LeBron is far more of a perimeter player than Larry was). As far as the titles, even with the last 3 years, do we really want to dissect who had more help in the 990 games Bird played versus the 880 LeBron has played.....

LBJ's career USG% is 31.6% to Bird's 26.5%. You know having capable teammates does mean that Bird fit the framework of his team, right? He can't be picked at for having better teammates on one hand and then on the other be critiqued because he didn't score as much.

As far as rebounds, Bird was a great player in the paint, and outside the arc. A better 3 pt shooter than LBJ and a better post player too - and yes - a better passer.

You also know that Bird's stats include his regrettable decline, at peak the battle is close. Bird's big problem is career length, it's not new news.

Bird's Celts also battled against more elite teams than the Heat have seen. Post peak SAS, a one year wonder team, a team that was too young and then screwed itself with the Perk deal. The Lakers of Birds time is head and shoulders over any Heat foes. The 76'ers, Pistons, Rockets, and even the Bucks formed a much deeper group of foes then the next grouping of teams the Heat has faced.

We've had this battle before, I date LBJ's passing of Bird to likely come after this years playoffs, you date them a year earlier - not much of a difference.

FlashBolt
12-19-2013, 11:35 AM
If LBJ never plays another game I'm afraid you're wrong.


The same Larry Bird that had the greatest if not one of the greatest post player?

You mean McHale? The black hole. Back up forward his first few years, fairly early end to his career (in particular of his dominance after he broke his foot). He had two great years where he did everything (but pass) in his career, and another four-five fine years. Not a great rebounder either BTW.

I notice LBJ won nothing w/o Wade and Bosh at his side.

So the point is?

The fact you included Bosh just shows you have nothing to back it up.

FlashBolt
12-19-2013, 11:38 AM
If LBJ never plays another game I'm afraid you're wrong.


He is also behind Bird in over 100 games played. In the same amount of games, LeBron is going to destroy his numbers (outside rebounds, but LeBron is far more of a perimeter player than Larry was). As far as the titles, even with the last 3 years, do we really want to dissect who had more help in the 990 games Bird played versus the 880 LeBron has played.....

LBJ's career USG% is 31.6% to Bird's 26.5%. You know having capable teammates does mean that Bird fit the framework of his team, right? He can't be picked at for having better teammates on one hand and then on the other be critiqued because he didn't score as much.

As far as rebounds, Bird was a great player in the paint, and outside the arc. A better 3 pt shooter than LBJ and a better post player too - and yes - a better passer.

You also know that Bird's stats include his regrettable decline, at peak the battle is close. Bird's big problem is career length, it's not new news.

Bird's Celts also battled against more elite teams than the Heat have seen. Post peak SAS, a one year wonder team, a team that was too young and then screwed itself with the Perk deal. The Lakers of Birds time is head and shoulders over any Heat foes. The 76'ers, Pistons, Rockets, and even the Bucks formed a much deeper group of foes then the next grouping of teams the Heat has faced.

We've had this battle before, I date LBJ's passing of Bird to likely come after this years playoffs, you date them a year earlier - not much of a difference.

It's easy to say it was tougher back then with no proof. No one can prove this so stop speaking from your "personal opinion" and pretending like they are facts.

LeperMessiah
12-19-2013, 12:51 PM
Good for him. I remember that one season where he averaged like 31.4 ppg. That was ridiculous and I think he was only in his 3rd season in the NBA.

He should easily finish top 3 all-time, I don't think he'll pass Kareem, but will come close to Karl Malone definitely.


But I wonder if he'll actually play tonight in a big marquee matchup on nationally televised game. I know he has a bum ankle, but I hope he's not so "Stats" conscious and sits down because he doesn't want his stats to suffer.

Heck even when Kobe got undercut and injured last yr on his ankle by Dahntay Jones, he couldn't even walk but yet played the first quarter of the next game at Indiana, which gave his team that morale boost and the Lakers won the game the rest of the way.

Guess how many points he finished away with that night? .... 0


So I hope LeBron puts on a show and doesn't worry about stats as even at less than 100%, he can be a morale boost for his team against their biggest rivals tonight and still be able to produce points as he climbing that scoring chart list.
You're totally right, Kobe is not a selfish player. Because he doesn't care for stats.

valade16
12-19-2013, 01:38 PM
It's easy to say it was tougher back then with no proof. No one can prove this so stop speaking from your "personal opinion" and pretending like they are facts.

When it comes to saying the Showtime Lakers were a greater opponent than any LeBron has faced is about as close to opinion that can be verified as factual.

It's not just him that thinks that BTW, it's pretty much anyone who has ever talked about basketball. So if you want to make a case that LeBron has faced a superior team to the Showtime Lakers, be my guest, but realize you're going to be fighting an extremely uphill battle...

Tony_Starks
12-19-2013, 02:14 PM
I give credit where credit is due, thats a nice accomplishment. I don't misconstrue that to meaning he's somehow better than Bird all time though. No more than I would put Kobe over Jordan when he breaks his record.

Breaking someone's record and actually being better than that player are two entirely different seperate things....

bagwell368
12-19-2013, 03:59 PM
If LBJ never plays another game I'm afraid you're wrong.


It's easy to say it was tougher back then with no proof. No one can prove this so stop speaking from your "personal opinion" and pretending like they are facts.

There are probably about 10 people on PSD fit to render an opinion of what I said, bet more say I'm right than wrong.

BTW, the first Heat title - Bosh was the best player for the Heat in the playoffs after James. He was a close 3rd behind Wade last year. He had a bigger part of those two titles than Parish was in any of the 3 titles Boston won in the 80's I find it embarrassing that I have to explain this to you.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:13 PM
Parish and McHale were not there, nor DJ. Just Maxwell, and an aging Tiny and beat Cowens who retired the next year. Take a look at Bird's rookie roster again.

Starters:

Cowens (.121 WS/48; last year not counting silly comeback with Bucks) / Robey (stiff)
Maxwell (unrecognized stud for a short period)
Bird
Ford (journey man)
Tiny (his only decent year post achilles)

A rookie with a .182 WS/48, 8th in win shares, named 1st team All NBA, made the ASG, 4th in MVP voting is having a major impact w/ or w/o McHale, Parish, and DJ.

well he didn't have to wait long is the point. LeBron gave Cleveland 7 years to figure it out. Bird got is extremely fast is my point. Just like Magic, Kobe, or Duncan.

FlashBolt
12-19-2013, 04:57 PM
There goes the superior garbage that you guys bring up. Who back then could seriously challenge the Celtics or Lakers? No one because they were established teams while the other teams were still trying to make a name for themselves. Easy to look good when you're facing a bunch of no-no's.

bagwell368
12-19-2013, 05:14 PM
well he didn't have to wait long is the point. LeBron gave Cleveland 7 years to figure it out. Bird got is extremely fast is my point. Just like Magic, Kobe, or Duncan.

OK, in that case, yes.

bagwell368
12-19-2013, 05:24 PM
There goes the superior garbage that you guys bring up. Who back then could seriously challenge the Celtics or Lakers? No one because they were established teams while the other teams were still trying to make a name for themselves. Easy to look good when you're facing a bunch of no-no's.

What are you talking about - go read post #37 - that's just about the main rival, not secondary teams which I also mentioned. You're on an island with this one. By all means keep proving your level of knowledge.

Are you familiar with the '83 76'ers? Or that great '81 team they had that pushed the Celts to 7 in the ECF in the greatest CF Series of all time IMO. The Bucks that won 50-60 games inclusive from 1980-1987 inclusive? Houston that made it to the Finals twice. The '89 and '90 Pistons?

You need to absorb more NBA history - nobody that has an opinion worthy of respect would ever offer a decade other than the 80's for the number of super deep teams - AND - membership of more teams considered top 20 all time - with one Lakers team and one Celt teams probably in everybody's top 4 (assuming you know - actual knowledge of the times).

lol, please
12-20-2013, 12:27 AM
Bird will always be greater regardless.

naps
12-20-2013, 12:53 AM
The same Larry Bird who's career was cut short by injuries? Ok, good for him....

The same Larry Bird who is widely regarded as a top 10 player ever and the same Larry Bird who played 108 more games than LeBron James. What are you trying to say again? This is a remarkable achievement when you are only 28 and played less than 800 games. Why is it so hard to appreciate the man on his outstanding feat?

naps
12-20-2013, 12:57 AM
I give credit where credit is due, thats a nice accomplishment. I don't misconstrue that to meaning he's somehow better than Bird all time though. No more than I would put Kobe over Jordan when he breaks his record.

Breaking someone's record and actually being better than that player are two entirely different seperate things....

Oh you do? Read the previous post where I quoted your hatred on the very first page of this thread.

Hawkize31
12-20-2013, 01:03 AM
Pretty remarkable. But wait til next year, it will start to get really nuts.
Some of the guys he might pass in scoring:
Barkley
Tim Duncan (if he retires)
AI
Patrick Ewing
Jerry West

He's going to be a top 15 or top 20 all time scorer at 30 years old. Unreal.

Chrisclover
12-20-2013, 12:06 PM
orz

Heatcheck
12-20-2013, 01:35 PM
The same Larry Bird who's career was cut short by injuries? Ok, good for him....

yup did in 10 years what bird did in 12

TylerSL
12-20-2013, 01:53 PM
You mean McHale? The black hole. Back up forward his first few years, fairly early end to his career (in particular of his dominance after he broke his foot). He had two great years where he did everything (but pass) in his career, and another four-five fine years. Not a great rebounder either BTW.

I notice LBJ won nothing w/o Wade and Bosh at his side.

So the point is?


So 2 60 wins seasons, 2 MVP's, 3 ECF appearances, and an NBA Finals appearance is nothing?

bagwell368
12-20-2013, 02:26 PM
So 2 60 wins seasons, 2 MVP's, 3 ECF appearances, and an NBA Finals appearance is nothing?

I was referring to titles which he won none of before Miami. Also it's taken his two current titles to wipe clean these images:

1. James folding in the 2009-2010 ECS: Cavs lost 3 straight after being up 2-1 - including a classic 9 TOV game 6, 3 for 14 Game 5, and 0 for 5 3PT and 7 TOV Game 4)

2. In the 2008-2009 ECF when James had shrinkage factor in deciding game 6.

3. Up 2-1 vs the Mavs in the Finals, LBJ submits 3 stinkers in a row, and they lose again.

After James mesmerizing performance vs the aging Celts in Game 6 in the 2011-2012 ECF James seems to have left the "Wilt" or "pre title Jordan" portion of his career behind. How long he stays as the #1 player, and how many rings he piles up doing it will define where he ends up - not unobjective fans. He's great, but he has to earn his final place, not have it laid at his feet mid career.

Enzo
12-20-2013, 11:49 PM
My personal opinion is that you can't honestly compare current NBA players to players of the past. Defense back in the day involved knocking the opposing player on his *** without refs blowing the whistle every 30 seconds. You really had to earn your buckets. In todays NBA, if you even enter someone's personal space you can get called for a foul.

Sactown
12-21-2013, 12:09 AM
I was referring to titles which he won none of before Miami. Also it's taken his two current titles to wipe clean these images:

1. James folding in the 2009-2010 ECS: Cavs lost 3 straight after being up 2-1 - including a classic 9 TOV game 6, 3 for 14 Game 5, and 0 for 5 3PT and 7 TOV Game 4)

2. In the 2008-2009 ECF when James had shrinkage factor in deciding game 6.

3. Up 2-1 vs the Mavs in the Finals, LBJ submits 3 stinkers in a row, and they lose again.

After James mesmerizing performance vs the aging Celts in Game 6 in the 2011-2012 ECF James seems to have left the "Wilt" or "pre title Jordan" portion of his career behind. How long he stays as the #1 player, and how many rings he piles up doing it will define where he ends up - not unobjective fans. He's great, but he has to earn his final place, not have it laid at his feet mid career.

Dude, Larry Bird statistically on multiple occasions was worse in the playoffs than he was in the regular season, and his playoff numbers are utterly destroyed in comparison to Lebron James's... You act as if Larry Bird never had bad playoff games..


This is before the fact that we also need to look at how Lebron was vastly a better and more versatile defender...

mngopher35
12-21-2013, 12:39 AM
Dude, Larry Bird statistically on multiple occasions was worse in the playoffs than he was in the regular season, and his playoff numbers are utterly destroyed in comparison to Lebron James's... You act as if Larry Bird never had bad playoff games..


This is before the fact that we also need to look at how Lebron was vastly a better and more versatile defender...

Exactly.

Not to mention you are really grasping at straws trying to blame Lebron for 2009. That horrible game of his was a 25 7 7 night on 40% shooting. The other 5 games that series he was 41, 8.5 and 8 on 50% shooting. If your going to call him out at least pick a series he didn't play amazingly in.

I don't understand why you feel the need to point that out in the first place when Bird had a few bad games/seriess as well. In fact most players have a few bad games or series throughout their careers, it doesn't take away from their greatness.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-21-2013, 06:49 AM
63 more points? :)

bagwell368
12-21-2013, 07:31 AM
Dude, Larry Bird statistically on multiple occasions was worse in the playoffs than he was in the regular season, and his playoff numbers are utterly destroyed in comparison to Lebron James's... You act as if Larry Bird never had bad playoff games..


This is before the fact that we also need to look at how Lebron was vastly a better and more versatile defender...

Clearly LBJ is a better on ball defender. Bird before '87 is an underrated defender, and his jumping passing lanes was in the all time great territory. But Bird was a better outside the 3 pt shooter and a better low post player than LBJ - let's not forget that. To me it's easily within 10% either way, probably 5% at this time, if LBJ continues to run over everybody it won't be long before I agree LBJ is ahead.

Bird had plenty of bad playoff games, but they are not as associated with lost series when his team was tied or ahead - at least in my memory.

bagwell368
12-21-2013, 07:33 AM
Exactly.

Not to mention you are really grasping at straws trying to blame Lebron for 2009. That horrible game of his was a 25 7 7 night on 40% shooting. The other 5 games that series he was 41, 8.5 and 8 on 50% shooting. If your going to call him out at least pick a series he didn't play amazingly in.

I don't understand why you feel the need to point that out in the first place when Bird had a few bad games/seriess as well. In fact most players have a few bad games or series throughout their careers, it doesn't take away from their greatness.

Before James won, like Jordan and Wilt before him there were questions and failures. That's the deal until the player changes it.

mngopher35
12-21-2013, 12:10 PM
Before James won, like Jordan and Wilt before him there were questions and failures. That's the deal until the player changes it.

Alright, I agree with that then.

I just wouldn't have used that magic series against him in any way. Heat year 1 for sure and a little in that boston series (although I think it is exaggerated).

3RDASYSTEM
12-21-2013, 12:52 PM
So we all know Lebron is a monster but few us really appreciate how amazing of a scorer he truly is. He is now 105 points away from passing Larry Bird on the all time scoring list at 21,791. At almost 29 years old, this is an insane accomplishment. The only seasons he didn't put up 2,000 points were his rookie seasons and the lockout shortened season. Melo, who many regard as the better scorer has only scored 2000+ in a season once, and does it on no where near the FG%. He needs just 16,701 more and he was the record. I personally think he ends up just behind Kareem, because injuries are likely and he probably won't be scoring 27 a game when he's 36 but if he can play with a real PG, a pass first one like Rondo, he could average 35+ ppg, and I personally think that would be a ton of fun to watch. If he did that he could be the #1.

all time scoring list
http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPTSQuery.html?topic=4&stat=1

lebron stats
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1966/lebron-james

BRON can do what he wants on the court day 1 and MELO always had the better offensive arsenal day 1 because KARL always wanted MELO in the post but at that time MELO was more perimeter based just like when he won that NCAA title with his face up game basically, its a few players with more arsenal of moves and shot making ability but that doesn't mean BRON cant match'em point for point, he's that good in his own version of doing it

BRON will be the pass first PG when he turns 36 yrs of age so he wouldn't need another one he would need a lethal scorer or variety of specialist snipers around him, sort of like now but younger KORVER types in near future, ATL or HOU would be nice if it doesn't work out for BRON in HEATVILLE

3RDASYSTEM
12-21-2013, 12:57 PM
I was referring to titles which he won none of before Miami. Also it's taken his two current titles to wipe clean these images:

1. James folding in the 2009-2010 ECS: Cavs lost 3 straight after being up 2-1 - including a classic 9 TOV game 6, 3 for 14 Game 5, and 0 for 5 3PT and 7 TOV Game 4)

2. In the 2008-2009 ECF when James had shrinkage factor in deciding game 6.

3. Up 2-1 vs the Mavs in the Finals, LBJ submits 3 stinkers in a row, and they lose again.

After James mesmerizing performance vs the aging Celts in Game 6 in the 2011-2012 ECF James seems to have left the "Wilt" or "pre title Jordan" portion of his career behind. How long he stays as the #1 player, and how many rings he piles up doing it will define where he ends up - not unobjective fans. He's great, but he has to earn his final place, not have it laid at his feet mid career.

None of BRON's teams were ship built during CAVS tenure but he made them contenders by his damn self

You can make a long long list of players who have folded and swept in playoffs from 1st rd to FINALS

He earned his place his rookie year when he dropped like 21 6 and 6, enough said

he went from taking a team that had no place to being in FINALS to being on a ship ready roster and going for 4 straight FINALS, his place is well solidified in best 20 players to ever do it group....easily

Heatcheck
12-21-2013, 12:59 PM
My personal opinion is that you can't honestly compare current NBA players to players of the past. Defense back in the day involved knocking the opposing player on his *** without refs blowing the whistle every 30 seconds. You really had to earn your buckets. In todays NBA, if you even enter someone's personal space you can get called for a foul.

Don't confuse hard fouls with better defense. granted there have been rule changes in favor of offense , but at same time, the league is longer faster and more athletic, and defensive schemes are more complex.

Enzo
12-21-2013, 08:42 PM
Don't confuse hard fouls with better defense. granted there have been rule changes in favor of offense , but at same time, the league is longer faster and more athletic, and defensive schemes are more complex.

No offense, but since you're a Heat fan, your opinion on this matter is biased. Today's players are Diva's compared to the old school NBA and that's a fact. Lebron James is extremely gifted, but he just might put up less numbers if he was playing 25 years ago.

Sactown
12-21-2013, 09:41 PM
Clearly LBJ is a better on ball defender. Bird before '87 is an underrated defender, and his jumping passing lanes was in the all time great territory. But Bird was a better outside the 3 pt shooter and a better low post player than LBJ - let's not forget that. To me it's easily within 10% either way, probably 5% at this time, if LBJ continues to run over everybody it won't be long before I agree LBJ is ahead.

Bird had plenty of bad playoff games, but they are not as associated with lost series when his team was tied or ahead - at least in my memory.

Bird was an underrated defender, but lebron is a better on ball defender and a better post defender (although I can admit that the post players are much worse today , so I could be wrong here)

As far as having bad playoff games, in Cleveland LeBron coukdnt have a few bad games in a series and win, Bird could. Hard to justify that saying well at least Bird got the win..

Sactown
12-21-2013, 09:45 PM
No offense, but since you're a Heat fan, your opinion on this matter is biased. Today's players are Diva's compared to the old school NBA and that's a fact. Lebron James is extremely gifted, but he just might put up less numbers if he was playing 25 years ago.

I hate this argument.. as if players 25 years ago are remotely as athletic... More physical, but much weaker and less athletic... LeBron would be better 25 years ago... To many advances in health and muscle supplements now a days..

TylerSL
12-23-2013, 12:36 PM
I was referring to titles which he won none of before Miami. Also it's taken his two current titles to wipe clean these images:

1. James folding in the 2009-2010 ECS: Cavs lost 3 straight after being up 2-1 - including a classic 9 TOV game 6, 3 for 14 Game 5, and 0 for 5 3PT and 7 TOV Game 4)

2. In the 2008-2009 ECF when James had shrinkage factor in deciding game 6.

3. Up 2-1 vs the Mavs in the Finals, LBJ submits 3 stinkers in a row, and they lose again.

After James mesmerizing performance vs the aging Celts in Game 6 in the 2011-2012 ECF James seems to have left the "Wilt" or "pre title Jordan" portion of his career behind. How long he stays as the #1 player, and how many rings he piles up doing it will define where he ends up - not unobjective fans. He's great, but he has to earn his final place, not have it laid at his feet mid career.


I completely agree that is unfair to both Lebron and other All Time Greats to compare him when they have a finished product and he is still in the peak of his career. Although in the scope of things, Lebron is in his 11th season when both Bird and Magic played only 13, and Jordan played 15, so he has been around almost as long as those guys, when should we start making that debate?

I also agree Lebron had some disappointing losses in Cleveland and his first season with Miami, but I dont see how he should have been expected to beat the KG/Pierce/Allen Celtics.

Lebron took the Cavs to the Finals in 2007, and that was one of the worst teams to ever make the Finals, you cannot blame him for the 3x champ Spurs beating a 22 year old. Though maybe in more than 4 games.

In 08, he couldn't get passed Boston just as Jordan couldn't get passed Detroit for a long time, although he had a great series.

In 09, he should have been able to get to the Finals, not getting past Orlando is on him IMO, although I dont think he would have beat the 2009 Lakers.

In 2010, again Boston was healthy and Cleveland was still pretty much a 1 man show. Not saying he didn't play bad in some of those games and some of that was on him. However, he had that wrist injury that I don't think anybody was sure how bad it was, but also I think he was exhausted. He completely carried a team that was not very good to much deeper postseason runs than most people could for 4 years from the ages of 22-25. However I will say, he should have played better in that series, although I think Boston was still going to win that series.

In 2011 he choked hard

and now he has won back to back titles. I agree he has disappointed a bit early, but I think best case scenario for Lebron had he not under performed in the seasons mentioned would be right now the Heat would be chasing a 4-peat, not a 3-peat; and he would have been to 5 NBA Finals, not 4 (07, 09, 11, 12, 13.)

B'sCeltsPatsSox
12-23-2013, 12:38 PM
I think LeBron will pass Bird by the end of this season. I think accolades wise he just needs an MVP or FMVP to do it.

FlashBolt
12-23-2013, 01:47 PM
No offense, but since you're a Heat fan, your opinion on this matter is biased. Today's players are Diva's compared to the old school NBA and that's a fact. Lebron James is extremely gifted, but he just might put up less numbers if he was playing 25 years ago.

But your argument is based off the fact of? You can't compare it. You can have your opinions but there are much too many factors going on that would derail your argument(s). It was tougher but if you think Jordan wasn't crying about calls, you got to be kidding yourself. Old school NBA was not as athletic, skilled, and versatile. The game is more complete now than it was before. You got centers stretching to the three point line and that's common.

bagwell368
12-23-2013, 02:12 PM
The game is more complete now than it was before. You got centers stretching to the three point line and that's common.

IMO the Jordan/Jackson triangle/iso game that took over the NBA is played by superior physical specimens that play a game focusing on ESPN top 10 posterizing ego driven moves - and are much less team oriented, have less skill in team play than what came before. I also see a lot more poorly played games on weekdays in the December-March time than there used to be back in the 60's-80's.

The 1988 generation was at least 2x more physically talented than the 1963 generation. Also the actual basketball skill possessed by the average player in 1988 was more than 2x that in 1963. The 2013 generation is more physically talented than the 1988 generation, but by something on the order of 1.3x. Basketball skill today? Bigs dribble better than they used to, everybody has longer range than they used to. But:

Name the top 10 low post players over the past 10 years, as a group they are wholly inferior to the 1985-1995 crop, and anybody that disagrees needs to watch a lot more tape.

Watch a whole game of the 1984-1987 Celts and Lakers, and please point out what teams pass as much (or as well, or run as hard and often as they did that plays today?

So it's a mixed bag on being "better". It's probably generational, but, I'd rather watch a great pass (Olynyk in the paint the other night, laying one down) than some pumped up guy throw down a dunk and glare at everyone as if he's Conan the Barbarian. That's "showbiz/EPSN" crap, that's not basketball. I want to watch a great team, not great players and everyone else is just window dressing/role player. It might work in a watered down league with elite players so much better than others, but, it's ugly to watch IMO.

Jeffy25
12-23-2013, 02:14 PM
It is worth noting, that Bird did have a shorter career....74th all time in minutes

Jeffy25
12-23-2013, 02:19 PM
LeBron is about 3000 minutes behind Bird fwiw


LeBron should get as high as 27th still this season all time (not including ABA)

And another 2000 point season next year, and he'll be top 17 next to Jerry West and Reggie Miller

lol, please
12-23-2013, 04:44 PM
Jeffy25 out of the MLB forum? Someone get him home, he must be drunk and has lost his way. :D

Hawkeye15
12-23-2013, 04:46 PM
No offense, but since you're a Heat fan, your opinion on this matter is biased. Today's players are Diva's compared to the old school NBA and that's a fact. Lebron James is extremely gifted, but he just might put up less numbers if he was playing 25 years ago.

he is absolutely correct. Defenses now are better. The hard fouls back in the day don't mask the fact that defenses now are more prepared, specialized, and simply better. Sports evolve.

Hawkeye15
12-23-2013, 04:47 PM
IMO the Jordan/Jackson triangle/iso game that took over the NBA is played by superior physical specimens that play a game focusing on ESPN top 10 posterizing ego driven moves - and are much less team oriented, have less skill in team play than what came before. I also see a lot more poorly played games on weekdays in the December-March time than there used to be back in the 60's-80's.

The 1988 generation was at least 2x more physically talented than the 1963 generation. Also the actual basketball skill possessed by the average player in 1988 was more than 2x that in 1963. The 2013 generation is more physically talented than the 1988 generation, but by something on the order of 1.3x. Basketball skill today? Bigs dribble better than they used to, everybody has longer range than they used to. But:

Name the top 10 low post players over the past 10 years, as a group they are wholly inferior to the 1985-1995 crop, and anybody that disagrees needs to watch a lot more tape.

Watch a whole game of the 1984-1987 Celts and Lakers, and please point out what teams pass as much (or as well, or run as hard and often as they did that plays today?

So it's a mixed bag on being "better". It's probably generational, but, I'd rather watch a great pass (Olynyk in the paint the other night, laying one down) than some pumped up guy throw down a dunk and glare at everyone as if he's Conan the Barbarian. That's "showbiz/EPSN" crap, that's not basketball. I want to watch a great team, not great players and everyone else is just window dressing/role player. It might work in a watered down league with elite players so much better than others, but, it's ugly to watch IMO.

you answered your own question here. Bigs are being utilized in different ways than dump into the post, because they have developed skill sets that allow their coach to move them away from the rim when needed, and create even more matchup problems.

Who the **** is guarding peak Dirk, or current Love night in and night out in 1985? Nobody had the combination of size and ability to get out and guard big guys shooting bombs. I am sure we can come up with a few defenders, but as a whole, nope.

Sly Guy
12-23-2013, 04:52 PM
lol, anyone here actually think lbj has 106 more points in him? GG, he's so washed up.....

bagwell368
12-23-2013, 05:19 PM
you answered your own question here. Bigs are being utilized in different ways than dump into the post, because they have developed skill sets that allow their coach to move them away from the rim when needed, and create even more matchup problems.

Who the **** is guarding peak Dirk, or current Love night in and night out in 1985? Nobody had the combination of size and ability to get out and guard big guys shooting bombs. I am sure we can come up with a few defenders, but as a whole, nope.

Before the 3 pt shot, most of the MVP's were Centers, and most of them had a real low post game or D, or both. Since the 3 pt shot, Centers get the ball less to shoot, and since the amount of time it takes to master a sky hook is greater then a decent 15' face up J, and the 7' 3" guys are basically sponged off the map since Hakeem retired, that's the way it went.

But you can't say this generation of centers have the same skill in the low post, not at all.

The 1985 Kevin McHale could have handled Dirk or Love - back then he had to deal with Barkley, English, Dr. J, Wilkins, etc. BTW, ignore McHale's DWS numbers - they are a fraud. He always got the toughest forward, and Bird got the easier. But BR doesn't look at a player keeping a player down 7 from his average, they just look at the total count of points (they told me so in answer to an email) - that's why Bird usually has more DWS each year then McHale. McHale got the 1st team D awards, and everybody knew that he was the key defender - and able to be deployed in the many situations, while Bird and Parish were well more limited.

There are a few more. I'd consider Bobby Jones too.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-27-2013, 11:29 PM
Congrats lebron.

Overtook bird for 30th all time scoring!!

stawka
12-28-2013, 04:28 AM
And Payton for 29th with (I believe) his last 3?

tdg823
12-28-2013, 05:00 AM
It should be borderline blasphemous for a true basketball fan to compare lebron to bird.. The gap in skill is dumbfounding.

Pacerlive
12-28-2013, 10:58 AM
you answered your own question here. Bigs are being utilized in different ways than dump into the post, because they have developed skill sets that allow their coach to move them away from the rim when needed, and create even more matchup problems.

Who the **** is guarding peak Dirk, or current Love night in and night out in 1985? Nobody had the combination of size and ability to get out and guard big guys shooting bombs. I am sure we can come up with a few defenders, but as a whole, nope.
The league has got more skilled but if Lebron played in the Bird era he wouldn't have had the bigs to create space for him to work and score efficiently. These small ball lineups with stretch bigs is a tremendous help to Lebron both in scoring and running a team as a point forward.

koreancabbage
12-28-2013, 11:10 AM
The league has got more skilled but if Lebron played in the Bird era he wouldn't have had the bigs to create space for him to work and score efficiently. These small ball lineups with stretch bigs is a tremendous help to Lebron both in scoring and running a team as a point forward.

i love the speculation. I don't think the league has ever seen a player like Lebron James in terms of skill and size. He would dominate in all eras. Adjustment to rules would just be a minor thing (like hand checking etc) - like all NBA players -they would adjust. But shooting the basketball and driving to the lane are still the same in past to the present. sure Lebron might get hacked more back then but he's got a Karl Malone physique. Just b/c the league has gotten softer due to the rules doesn't mean James wont get the superstar calls.

I would say Lebron would be one of the biggest guys on the court in the era of Bird and a helluva scary with him coming down the lane.

Pacerlive
12-28-2013, 11:51 AM
i love the speculation. I don't think the league has ever seen a player like Lebron James in terms of skill and size. He would dominate in all eras. Adjustment to rules would just be a minor thing (like hand checking etc) - like all NBA players -they would adjust. But shooting the basketball and driving to the lane are still the same in past to the present. sure Lebron might get hacked more back then but he's got a Karl Malone physique. Just b/c the league has gotten softer due to the rules doesn't mean James wont get the superstar calls.

I would say Lebron would be one of the biggest guys on the court in the era of Bird and a helluva scary with him coming down the lane.
I think most coaches in the bird era would use him as a true pf and if that's the case he would not be as durable IMO. He hates to bang all game long and for 82 games his body and numbers would fail much sooner than it has.

Everything was different. Nutrition, lifting, even implementing the three point line the first year when people had to adjust to a major rule change. As much as Lebron has done in his career he is still standing on the shoulders of Giants that did it first and showed him the way. It even opened up the door for coaches to maximize his abilities since they had something in the past to show them that it could work.

koreancabbage
12-28-2013, 12:27 PM
I think most coaches in the bird era would use him as a true pf and if that's the case he would not be as durable IMO. He hates to bang all game long and for 82 games his body and numbers would fail much sooner than it has.

Everything was different. Nutrition, lifting, even implementing the three point line the first year when people had to adjust to a major rule change. As much as Lebron has done in his career he is still standing on the shoulders of Giants that did it first and showed him the way. It even opened up the door for coaches to maximize his abilities since they had something in the past to show them that it could work.

If Bird played SF/PF and had great success and Lebron is a bigger, more athletic, and a faster player - Lebron would break down faster? Just because he doesn't like to bang doesn't mean he break down lol. he'll just pout like he does now. LOL

that doesn't make sense when his other skills translate to above average ball handler, great court vision, and speed? Lebron, in the Bird age, would be a new type of player (like Bird himself) that league hasn't seen before. and three point line was closer than it is now - I believe.

standing on the shoulders of giants is one thing but Lebron is a better scorer and just as good of a passer compared to Bird. Bird has him in FT% and rebounding though. if a player, like Lebron or Bird, has all the skills like passing and handling the ball, no matter which generation - they will be used accordingly.

Lebron has already matched all of Bird's achievements, not that it makes any difference, as Lebron is also going to be one of the greats when its all said and done.

Chronz
12-28-2013, 01:46 PM
Bron would have it easier in the free flowing era of years past against inferior/slender athletes and defenses that weren't allowed to wall off the paint. 1 on 1 play was easier back then.

ThuglifeJ
12-28-2013, 02:16 PM
it's so dumb to say how Lebron would dominate in Bird's era.. no **** that was over 20 years ago. Of course the stars 20 years in the future are going to more athletic and stronger with time..

Now congrats to Lebron, that is a cool feat (how fast he's moving on scoring list, not passing Bird).

How short was Bird's career cut? Short. This should definitely change the outlook on this feat. Pretty obvious. Oh Lebron did it in less games? Umm how many of those games was Bird playing with a bad back..how much older was Bird in his later years than Lebron is now? A year makes a difference near the 30 mark.

This by no means makes Lebron a better player or career than Bird. Not that it can't happen, but this mark doesn't do much.

btw why was this thread made with 105 points left? Kind of a random time to make the thread.

Chronz
12-28-2013, 02:28 PM
it's so dumb to say how Lebron would dominate in Bird's era.. no **** that was over 20 years ago. Of course the stars 20 years in the future are going to more athletic and stronger with time..
Its not dumb because you have people here claiming otherwise. Read through a few posts, not just mine before calling anything dumb.


Now congrats to Lebron, that is a cool feat (how fast he's moving on scoring list, not passing Bird).
Now thats dumb, nobody equates scoring ranks to career ranks. Are they?

goingfor28
12-28-2013, 07:02 PM
The same Larry Bird who's career was cut short by injuries? Ok, good for him....

exactly, and bird played college ball

b@llhog24
12-28-2013, 08:56 PM
it's so dumb to say how Lebron would dominate in Bird's era.. no **** that was over 20 years ago. Of course the stars 20 years in the future are going to more athletic and stronger with time..

Now congrats to Lebron, that is a cool feat (how fast he's moving on scoring list, not passing Bird).

How short was Bird's career cut? Short. This should definitely change the outlook on this feat. Pretty obvious. Oh Lebron did it in less games? Umm how many of those games was Bird playing with a bad back..how much older was Bird in his later years than Lebron is now? A year makes a difference near the 30 mark.

This by no means makes Lebron a better player or career than Bird. Not that it can't happen, but this mark doesn't do much.

btw why was this thread made with 105 points left? Kind of a random time to make the thread.

You talk about Bird's back injuries as if that makes LeBron look bad or something. Durability is something to be applauded not scoffed at.

numba1CHANGsta
12-28-2013, 09:14 PM
Seriously? are you guys going to post a new thread every time he passes a player? Top 10 i'd understand but 30th? who cares

Pacerlive
12-28-2013, 11:23 PM
Bron would have it easier in the free flowing era of years past against inferior/slender athletes and defenses that weren't allowed to wall off the paint. 1 on 1 play was easier back then.

That's the thing though he would be slender as well. The guy didn't come out of the womb weighing 260 and lifting weights none stop. It was a different league and athletes back then didn't have the same advantages in medicine and nutrition. Genetics didn't change over the course of 40ty years medical advancements did.

Sactown
12-28-2013, 11:28 PM
Seriously? are you guys going to post a new thread every time he passes a player? Top 10 i'd understand but 30th? who cares

He just passed the previous best player of all time at the SF position.. pretty significant

ThuglifeJ
12-28-2013, 11:40 PM
Bron would have it easier in the free flowing era of years past against inferior/slender athletes and defenses that weren't allowed to wall off the paint. 1 on 1 play was easier back then.

That's the thing though he would be slender as well. The guy didn't come out of the womb weighing 260 and lifting weights none stop. It was a different league and athletes back then didn't have the same advantages in medicine and nutrition. Genetics didn't change over the course of 40ty years medical advancements did.

Exactly

Chronz
12-28-2013, 11:49 PM
That's the thing though he would be slender as well. The guy didn't come out of the womb weighing 260 and lifting weights none stop. It was a different league and athletes back then didn't have the same advantages in medicine and nutrition. Genetics didn't change over the course of 40ty years medical advancements did.

Can't see anything wrong with ur post, dont disagree with anything here

bagwell368
12-29-2013, 10:08 AM
If Bird played SF/PF and had great success and Lebron is a bigger, more athletic, and a faster player - Lebron would break down faster? Just because he doesn't like to bang doesn't mean he break down lol. he'll just pout like he does now.

Bird was more skilled. Better shooter at all distances (imagine if he hadn't broken the index finger on his shooting hand and have it heal into a semi ridgid claw before his rookie season?). Better passer. More clever rebounder. Better trash talker. Bird has a lot of advantages over LeBron and other players. The speed of his mind exceeds any player I've ever seen. Sure LeBron is stronger and faster - but that's not the whole game - not even close.


...new type of player (like Bird himself) that league hasn't seen before. and three point line was closer than it is now - I believe.

That's incorrect. Bird and LBJ both had the same distance. From '94-'97 it was shortened a bit.


standing on the shoulders of giants is one thing but Lebron is a better scorer and just as good of a passer compared to Bird.

Clearly you've seen very little or no Bird tape. Bird was a much better passer than LBJ, which can't be gleaned from just assist numbers. Bird is generally held as the best passing SF of all time by experts - you might want to do some investigation on that, because you sure are exposing yourself here.


Lebron has already matched all of Bird's achievements

Really? He's short a title unless I can't count correctly.
How about 12 ASG's?
Bird is 3rd in all time Award Shares for the MVP too, ahead of LB for now in 4th.
Bird led the NBA in 3 pointer made twice, no chance of LBJ doing that.
Bird led the NBA in FT% 4 times, no danger of seeing LBJ get even one (never made a top 10)
Bird led the NBA in defensive win shares 4 times - LBJ zip
Bird led the NBA in MPG twice - LBJ once

Obviously LBJ has things he's a head of Bird in. The point is LBJ isn't better than Bird in many areas, and never will be - and the converse is true as well.

bledrules
12-29-2013, 11:47 AM
Its actually a shame that this will happen
Bird played back when the NBA was enjoyable now its a farce that Bron-Bron and Kobe have created
A bunch of overpaid millionaires in short pants yawwwwnn

todu82
12-29-2013, 12:53 PM
Good for Lebron. The guy is such a great player. I figure Larry Bird's not going to be the first legend of the all time points list that Lebron passes.

Reversed86Curse
12-29-2013, 01:01 PM
The same Larry Bird who's career was cut short by injuries? Ok, good for him..... Exactly. And this talk of all time scoring, just imagine if MJ hadn't had retired twice. He could have passed KAJ sleep walking. Lebrons great and all, but unfortunately he'll always be looking at someone else's tail lights

Chronz
12-29-2013, 03:52 PM
The same Larry Bird who's career was cut short by injuries? Ok, good for him..... Exactly. And this talk of all time scoring, just imagine if MJ hadn't had retired twice. He could have passed KAJ sleep walking. Lebrons great and all, but unfortunately he'll always be looking at someone else's tail lights
So what are we saying here, that longevity is overrated?

Agreed. This dont mean **** in comparison to peak play

Sactown
12-29-2013, 03:58 PM
. Exactly. And this talk of all time scoring, just imagine if MJ hadn't had retired twice. He could have passed KAJ sleep walking. Lebrons great and all, but unfortunately he'll always be looking at someone else's tail lights

Difference is LBJ still has played less games than Bird by a significant margin... This isn't another example of player A having more point and significantly more games over player B

This is Player A having more points in less games than player B....

KnicksorBust
12-29-2013, 04:11 PM
. Exactly. And this talk of all time scoring, just imagine if MJ hadn't had retired twice. He could have passed KAJ sleep walking. Lebrons great and all, but unfortunately he'll always be looking at someone else's tail lights

Difference is LBJ still has played less games than Bird by a significant margin... This isn't another example of player A having more point and significantly more games over player B

This is Player A having more points in less games than player B....

Yup. LeBron is better than Bird. I would take Bird's career but even that is going to slip away in another year.

FraziersKnicks
12-29-2013, 05:28 PM
Really? He's short a title unless I can't count correctly.
How about 12 ASG's?
Bird is 3rd in all time Award Shares for the MVP too, ahead of LB for now in 4th.
Bird led the NBA in 3 pointer made twice, no chance of LBJ doing that.
Bird led the NBA in FT% 4 times, no danger of seeing LBJ get even one (never made a top 10)
Bird led the NBA in defensive win shares 4 times - LBJ zip
Bird led the NBA in MPG twice - LBJ once

Obviously LBJ has things he's a head of Bird in. The point is LBJ isn't better than Bird in many areas, and never will be - and the converse is true as well.

It's so easy to cherry pick stats when they support your argument.

6 of LeBron's 10 full seasons he has recorded a PER higher than Bird's highest EVER (and that'll be 7 after this season). LeBron already has 13 more win shares over his career and he's 28 (148 compared to 135).

Overall LeBron is already the better player and he's still only 28.

bagwell368
12-29-2013, 06:02 PM
It's so easy to cherry pick stats when they support your argument.

6 of LeBron's 10 full seasons he has recorded a PER higher than Bird's highest EVER (and that'll be 7 after this season). LeBron already has 13 more win shares over his career and he's 28 (148 compared to 135).

Overall LeBron is already the better player and he's still only 28.

Firstly PER is a garbage stat. Secondly it's a different time and different league. Bird was not a physical beast. He was tough and smart, and dedicated to winning and his team in equal measures.

BTW, after reading about 6-7 pro LBJ posts in a row mostly by posters that never saw Bird play, I thought I'd put in a word for Bird. I did note which you over looked that LBJ has stats that supported him - and I might add I was answering a poster that said LBJ was already past Bird in every way which is patent garbage as I proved beyond any shadow of a doubt. Mission accomplished. Now go find out why PER sucks.