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View Full Version : Would Detroit have won more with CP3 instead of Zeke



JasonJohnHorn
12-18-2013, 09:51 AM
When it comes to comparing point guards, it can be hard. Magic's game was nothing like Stockton's game. Kidds game was nothing like Nash's game. When comparing these guys, you might as well be comparing a point guard to a center.


But there are many point guards who have a similar game, and two of the great ever, Chris Paul and the original Isiah Thomas (not to be confused with Isiaiah Thomas) both had very similar games.

They were guys who could score 20+ and still rack up 10+ assists on a near nightly basis. Both were good defenders. Thomas could explode some night and play at a level that few could ever hope to perform at, even on their best nights, though his consistency and overall percentages fail to match CP3.

So my question is: Would the original Bab Boy Piston have won more if they'd had CP3 insteald of Isiah Thomas?

lakerfan85
12-18-2013, 10:57 AM
Lol!!

lakerfan85
12-18-2013, 10:58 AM
To answer the question I say no...

bagwell368
12-18-2013, 11:09 AM
CP3 > Thomas (and he would have gotten more awards and been named to Team USA because he wasn't a jerk like IT).

RipCity32
12-18-2013, 11:43 AM
I think Paul is better than Thomas but who knows if it would have won more championships or not.

Chrisclover
12-18-2013, 11:49 AM
wow,2 CP3 hypothesises in a row .I expect someone to 3peat :D

scissors
12-18-2013, 11:50 AM
Who cares

scissors
12-18-2013, 11:50 AM
Who cares

don't watch then

ManRam
12-18-2013, 12:15 PM
CP3 is a vastly superior player than Zeke ever was.

So..."more".

Jarvo
12-18-2013, 01:15 PM
No, All that got damn flooping, *****ing and crying wouldn't be allowed like it did when Zeke played.

pacofunk64
12-18-2013, 01:31 PM
Who cares


don't watch then

bahahahahahaha...good stuff here ladies and gentlemen.

Chronz
12-18-2013, 01:53 PM
don't watch then
that was pretty funny

But to answer the OP, yes, they would have won 3 instead of 2, the Lakers series should have never been that close.

True Sports Fan
12-18-2013, 07:29 PM
**Isaiah Thomas

TheMightyHumph
12-18-2013, 07:34 PM
I don't think so

DreamShaker
12-19-2013, 02:45 AM
CP3 is a vastly superior player than Zeke ever was.

So..."more".

Vastly? I would not go that far.

Heediot
12-19-2013, 06:24 AM
If he played with more agression like the Cp3 before the knee injury, no doubt. Right now, he's more about creating for others. That Detroit team needed Thomas to make plays for himself and others as well. Advanced stats says he should, but mentality wise I don't know if Paul is up to it.

beasted86
12-19-2013, 03:17 PM
No, All that got damn flooping, *****ing and crying wouldn't be allowed like it did when Zeke played.

This. It's not all about stats and PER. Chris Paul is soft in comparison and it has been known for a while he can be contained by physical trapping defense. He's not leading anyone out of the 80s East playing Boston and Chicago.

LongIslandIcedZ
12-19-2013, 03:38 PM
Who cares


don't watch then

This was hilarious

WES KOAST
12-19-2013, 10:23 PM
I think Paul is better than Thomas but who knows if it would have won more championships or not.

better?

Isaiah Thomas was a bad mofo

b@llhog24
12-19-2013, 10:30 PM
CP3 is a vastly superior player than Zeke ever was.

So..."more".

+1

AddiX
12-19-2013, 10:33 PM
If he played with more agression like the Cp3 before the knee injury, no doubt. Right now, he's more about creating for others. That Detroit team needed Thomas to make plays for himself and others as well. Advanced stats says he should, but mentality wise I don't know if Paul is up to it.

So true..

This is why im so tired of this per talk around here. You can't have a conversation in the NBA forum anymore without someone bringing up a per stat, ask them to explain a basic offensive set or defensive rotation and they don't know a thing.

ManRam
12-19-2013, 10:34 PM
Vastly? I would not go that far.

I will :shrug: CP3 is better at just about everything that I think Zeke was. I'm a little too young to say that I can back that up with my eyes, but I've watched those two Finals wins and yeah...his role was slightly overrated IMO, as is his all time rank.


No, All that got damn flooping, *****ing and crying wouldn't be allowed like it did when Zeke played.

Yes...because flopping and crying have everything to do with why CP3 is a historic talent :laugh:


If he played with more agression like the Cp3 before the knee injury, no doubt. Right now, he's more about creating for others. That Detroit team needed Thomas to make plays for himself and others as well. Advanced stats says he should, but mentality wise I don't know if Paul is up to it.

Disagree completely.

Zeke was an 18 and 21 point scorer in his two respective Finals runs. He took ~16 a game during both playoffs. Paul has averaged 16 shots and 21 points a game in his playoff career. Zeke was a more aggressive scorer, sure...but he was so much more inefficient that it probably doesn't matter. Substitute in the rest of CP3's superior game and it's a wrap. CP3 is gonna score as much and do way more to compliment that than Zeke did.

Individually, CP3 has posted some of the gaudiest stats in the playoffs we've ever seen. Considerably more impressive than Zeke's...advanced or even just counting stats. He's just never had a complete team to compliment that.


I maintain that Zeke is one of the most overrated players of all time. This poll is solidifying my opinion.

John Walls Era
12-19-2013, 10:51 PM
How can people use metrics for players in two different eras? CP3 is probably the better player, but Zeke has heart. I've seen CP3s teams get blown out all the time in the playoffs.

John Walls Era
12-19-2013, 10:52 PM
I maintain that Zeke is one of the most overrated players of all time. This poll is solidifying my opinion.

90% of them didn't watch him play.

ANd its Dwight not Zeke.

ManRam
12-19-2013, 10:57 PM
90% of them didn't watch him play.

ANd its Dwight not Zeke.

No one overrates Dwight any more :laugh2: Everyone hates him. You have a warped view of perception at this point...which is why "overrated" talk is usually pointless. We have to have that baseline to judge the -ratedness on, and your baseline lately clearly has been way off. He was a 3rd Team All-NBA player last year. That's probably quite fitting these days for him. No one treats him like the MVP candidate he once was.

Get over it.

TheMightyHumph
12-19-2013, 11:49 PM
I will :shrug: CP3 is better at just about everything that I think Zeke was. I'm a little too young to say that I can back that up with my eyes, but I've watched those two Finals wins and yeah...his role was slightly overrated IMO, as is his all time rank.



Yes...because flopping and crying have everything to do with why CP3 is a historic talent :laugh:



Disagree completely.

Zeke was an 18 and 21 point scorer in his two respective Finals runs. He took ~16 a game during both playoffs. Paul has averaged 16 shots and 21 points a game in his playoff career. Zeke was a more aggressive scorer, sure...but he was so much more inefficient that it probably doesn't matter. Substitute in the rest of CP3's superior game and it's a wrap. CP3 is gonna score as much and do way more to compliment that than Zeke did.

Individually, CP3 has posted some of the gaudiest stats in the playoffs we've ever seen. Considerably more impressive than Zeke's...advanced or even just counting stats. He's just never had a complete team to compliment that.


I maintain that Zeke is one of the most overrated players of all time. This poll is solidifying my opinion.

Zeke wins nothing without Dumars, but Zeke's personality and attitude are a big part of what made the Pistons champs.

I don't think Pistons win those Titles with Paul instead of Zeke.

JMO, naturally

ManRam
12-19-2013, 11:52 PM
Zeke wins nothing without Dumars, but Zeke's personality and attitude are a big part of what made the Pistons champs.

I don't think Pistons win those Titles with Paul instead of Zeke.

JMO, naturally

That's fair. The only compelling argument is "attitude", "personality", "mentality" and so on. That's fine...but it doesn't magically make him a better player...

...and those wouldn't be knocks against Paul if he played on better teams and had more TEAM success. Because "Lord" knows, his lack of team playoff success is COMPLETELY independent of him. I think it's a false narrative. Put him on a talented team like those Pistons and he's achieving as much success, if not more because, again, he's just a better player.

beasted86
12-19-2013, 11:56 PM
I will :shrug: CP3 is better at just about everything that I think Zeke was. I'm a little too young to say that I can back that up with my eyes, but I've watched those two Finals wins and yeah...his role was slightly overrated IMO, as is his all time rank.



Yes...because flopping and crying have everything to do with why CP3 is a historic talent :laugh:



Disagree completely.

Zeke was an 18 and 21 point scorer in his two respective Finals runs. He took ~16 a game during both playoffs. Paul has averaged 16 shots and 21 points a game in his playoff career. Zeke was a more aggressive scorer, sure...but he was so much more inefficient that it probably doesn't matter. Substitute in the rest of CP3's superior game and it's a wrap. CP3 is gonna score as much and do way more to compliment that than Zeke did.

Individually, CP3 has posted some of the gaudiest stats in the playoffs we've ever seen. Considerably more impressive than Zeke's...advanced or even just counting stats. He's just never had a complete team to compliment that.


I maintain that Zeke is one of the most overrated players of all time. This poll is solidifying my opinion.

The poll means nothing when I would guesstimate a good 90% of those PSD voters above didn't even watch prime Isiah. Chris Paul would get destroyed by DJ or Jordan if he let Dahntay Jones handle him so well a couple years ago. Chris Paul has never taken over a playoff game with his scoring, ever. That's what those Pistons teams needed at times, and Paul just doesn't have that ability. I still remember Isiah dropping like 20 in the 3rd quarter on a bum ankle in the Finals.

And to the people talking about with Paul it would have been 3 in a row... with Isiah it should have been 3 in a row without the ankle injury and a bum foul call for Kareem by Laimbeer with 1 second left.

ManRam
12-20-2013, 12:06 AM
The poll means nothing when I would guesstimate a good 90% of those PSD voters above didn't even watch prime Isiah. Chris Paul would get destroyed by DJ or Jordan if he let Dahntay Jones handle him so well a couple years ago. Chris Paul has never taken over a playoff game with his scoring, ever. That's what those Pistons teams needed at times, and Paul just doesn't have that ability. I still remember Isiah dropping like 20 in the 3rd quarter on a bum ankle in the Finals.

And to the people talking about with Paul it would have been 3 in a row... with Isiah it should have been 3 in a row without the ankle injury and a bum foul call for Kareem by Laimbeer with 1 second left.

Then why does he average more PPG in the playoffs than Zeke? I mean, CP3 is arguably this era's greatest clutch player too. I am truly bamboozled by this notion that Zeke was such a better scorer. I mean, did you watch CP3 these past playoffs? Dominate. Period. Putting up numbers Zeke never could dream of. The Clipps lost, but that was entirely independent of his play.

This notion that Zeke was some elite scorer is one of the greatest myths ever.


CP3 playoff statistics literally MASSACRE Zeke's. :shrug: The problem has been supporting casts.


I don't expect Zeke supporters to counter my points tangibly, though. They can live in their delusional worlds.

beasted86
12-20-2013, 12:10 AM
Then why does he average more PPG in the playoffs than Zeke? I mean, CP3 is arguably this era's greatest clutch player too. I am truly bamboozled by this notion that Zeke was such a better scorer. I mean, did you watch CP3 these past playoffs? Dominate. Period. Putting up numbers Zeke never could dream of. The Clipps lost, but that was entirely independent of his play.

This notion that Zeke was some elite scorer is one of the greatest myths ever.


CP3 playoff statistics literally MASSACRE Zeke's. :shrug: The problem has been supporting casts.


I don't expect Zeke supporters to counter my points tangibly, though. They can live in their delusional worlds.
Scores more against far inferior defensive teams and players, sure... nobody can argue against that.

All I'm saying is if Chris Paul is struggling against Dahntay Jones and a disgusting defensive team like the Nuggets were, how does he face all time defenders like DJ and the Celtics, and Jordan and the Bulls in a series?

ManRam
12-20-2013, 12:15 AM
Scores more against far inferior defensive teams and players, sure... nobody can argue against that.

All I'm saying is if Chris Paul is struggling against Dahntay Jones and a disgusting defensive team like the Nuggets were, how does he face all time defenders like DJ and the Celtics, and Jordan and the Bulls in a series?

Defenses these days are NOT inferior. That's a proven myth. They've evolved immensely since the late 80s. Sure, it's a bit less physical but defensive schemes have evolved tremendously. These players are far more athletic too.

What's this Chris Paul struggling vs. Dahntay Jones thing coming from?


CP3 is as crafty and savvy as a player as we've ever seen. He'd figure it out. His jumper ***** on Zeke's too...so even if for some reason he'd have to resort to that, he'd be fine.

beasted86
12-20-2013, 12:26 AM
Chris Paul is an elite talent, but if we are trying to going to REACH and start talking about how he is "vastly" superior than a proven champion and hall of fame top 5 PG when the guy hasn't even led his team to the conference finals... forget about the ACTUAL Finals... then the burden of proof is on him.

I recall vividly Dahntay Jones and Billups tag teamed Chris Paul basically shutting this guy down for a series when he was fully healthy with Billups going off on him on the other end of the floor every night.

When comparing Isiah's earler playoff numbers to Paul's playoff numbers, its clear who the better PLAYER is. Not just scoring, but passing and defense. Its also arguable that Isiah had more floor presence as a leader. Sometimes I really have no clue what Paul is doing out there to try and inspire his team to really around him. I blame him fully despite the elite stats for this same aspect last year when they got beat. A superstar shouldn't allow his team to get beat with home floor, sorry.

So the burden of proof is on Paul, and he hasn't proven that he can lead a team to a championship, let alone back to back to back Finals.

MDD
12-20-2013, 01:58 AM
Anybody that say cp3 is better than Zeke must of not seen him play. Zeke pistons beat teams that had multiple all-stars and HOFers while he was was the only clear all-stars on his team cp3 have not even made it to the semi finals yet.a

Hawkeye15
12-20-2013, 02:02 AM
The Pistons were better with CP3. Easily.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2013, 02:04 AM
Defenses these days are NOT inferior. That's a proven myth. They've evolved immensely since the late 80s. Sure, it's a bit less physical but defensive schemes have evolved tremendously. These players are far more athletic too.

What's this Chris Paul struggling vs. Dahntay Jones thing coming from?


CP3 is as crafty and savvy as a player as we've ever seen. He'd figure it out. His jumper ***** on Zeke's too...so even if for some reason he'd have to resort to that, he'd be fine.

I as a victim of this for a while. I thought harder fouls meant better defense. Fact is, defense now is better than ever. So is offense. It's called the progression of the sport.

Sure, you can't skull **** a player now and get away with it. Doesn't mean the defenses now don't know each and every way to stop an opposing team/player.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2013, 02:05 AM
Anybody that say cp3 is better than Zeke must of not seen him play. Zeke pistons beat teams that had multiple all-stars and HOFers while he was was the only clear all-stars on his team cp3 have not even made it to the semi finals yet.a

nope. Watched Zeke play his whole career. He didn't control an offense like Paul, nor defend at anywhere near the rate Paul does. Zeke is in the convo for most overrated PG ever.

Jarvo
12-20-2013, 02:20 AM
I will :shrug: CP3 is better at just about everything that I think Zeke was. I'm a little too young to say that I can back that up with my eyes, but I've watched those two Finals wins and yeah...his role was slightly overrated IMO, as is his all time rank.



Yes...because flopping and crying have everything to do with why CP3 is a historic talent :laugh:



Disagree completely.

Zeke was an 18 and 21 point scorer in his two respective Finals runs. He took ~16 a game during both playoffs. Paul has averaged 16 shots and 21 points a game in his playoff career. Zeke was a more aggressive scorer, sure...but he was so much more inefficient that it probably doesn't matter. Substitute in the rest of CP3's superior game and it's a wrap. CP3 is gonna score as much and do way more to compliment that than Zeke did.

Individually, CP3 has posted some of the gaudiest stats in the playoffs we've ever seen. Considerably more impressive than Zeke's...advanced or even just counting stats. He's just never had a complete team to compliment that.


I maintain that Zeke is one of the most overrated players of all time. This poll is solidifying my opinion.

Paul is soft point blank you get physical with him and he gets thrown off his game, Yeah he got talent but to say he is mentally tougher than Zeke which is apart of the game nope. He gets a hard foul how they hit back in the day he might have got injured.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-20-2013, 02:44 AM
CP3 now is better than Zeke when he won those titles in Detroit, but I doubt they win more due to the competition they faced (had the Bulls win after them and the Lakers win before them). They probably win the same amount.

JasonJohnHorn
12-20-2013, 01:09 PM
Anybody that say cp3 is better than Zeke must of not seen him play. Zeke pistons beat teams that had multiple all-stars and HOFers while he was was the only clear all-stars on his team cp3 have not even made it to the semi finals yet.a

Zeke wasn't the only star. He didn't even win finals MVP in the second series.
Rodman, Dumar, Aguire (or Dantley), Laimbeer. These guys were all all-stars.


Not to mention guys like Vinnie Johnson, John Sally, James Edwards and Rick MaHorn.

You want to compare a roster like that with roster whose best player outside of Paul was David West? Or a Clippers team, last year, who didn't even have their second best player on the floor due to injury?


I got to watch Isiah play. He was AMAZING when he was hot, but when he wasn't, he could hurt the team.

JasonJohnHorn
12-20-2013, 01:15 PM
Paul is soft point blank you get physical with him and he gets thrown off his game, Yeah he got talent but to say he is mentally tougher than Zeke which is apart of the game nope. He gets a hard foul how they hit back in the day he might have got injured.

I think you underrate Paul and Isiah's teammates.

The reason Thomas could be so confident out there is because he had guys like Rodman and Laimbeer backing him up. Paul wouldn't have to worry about hard fouls. Also, great players adjust their game to how a game is officiated. Paul would have no problem with that.


And as for being soft, the Bad Boy Pistons were masters at flopping. Laimbeer and MaHorn both knew how to draw an offensive fouls.

John Walls Era
12-20-2013, 02:44 PM
No one overrates Dwight any more :laugh2: Everyone hates him. You have a warped view of perception at this point...which is why "overrated" talk is usually pointless. We have to have that baseline to judge the -ratedness on, and your baseline lately clearly has been way off. He was a 3rd Team All-NBA player last year. That's probably quite fitting these days for him. No one treats him like the MVP candidate he once was.

Get over it.

let me know when im wrong.

b@llhog24
12-20-2013, 03:35 PM
Even if Paul isn't as good in that era as he is in this one, he'd still be better than Zeke.

TheMightyHumph
12-20-2013, 03:36 PM
That's fair. The only compelling argument is "attitude", "personality", "mentality" and so on. That's fine...but it doesn't magically make him a better player...

...and those wouldn't be knocks against Paul if he played on better teams and had more TEAM success. Because "Lord" knows, his lack of team playoff success is COMPLETELY independent of him. I think it's a false narrative. Put him on a talented team like those Pistons and he's achieving as much success, if not more because, again, he's just a better player.

I'm not talking about who the better player is.

I'm saying if you substitute Paul for Zeke, Piston don't make 3 straight Finals nor win two Titles.

Heediot
12-20-2013, 04:54 PM
Disagree completely.

Zeke was an 18 and 21 point scorer in his two respective Finals runs. He took ~16 a game during both playoffs. Paul has averaged 16 shots and 21 points a game in his playoff career. Zeke was a more aggressive scorer, sure...but he was so much more inefficient that it probably doesn't matter. Substitute in the rest of CP3's superior game and it's a wrap. CP3 is gonna score as much and do way more to compliment that than Zeke did.

Individually, CP3 has posted some of the gaudiest stats in the playoffs we've ever seen. Considerably more impressive than Zeke's...advanced or even just counting stats. He's just never had a complete team to compliment that.


I maintain that Zeke is one of the most overrated players of all time. This poll is solidifying my opinion.

Cp3 is my favorite player and I follow the Clippers, the fact is he only occasionally aggressive in the first 3 quarters but he turns it on in the clutch. I do agree he does turn up the aggression in the playoffs. The OP stated if Cp3 would give them more wins not championships, so I'm basing my judgement on regular season. Since coming to the Clippers, he has been looking to create for others more then himself. How does that dynamic correlate with the Bad Boy Pistons? Does his mindset and game complement Daly's system better Vs. Zeke?

Also, this all depends on how confident Paul is with his body, to play with reckless abandon and freely like Thomas did in Detroit. If he trusts his body and it holds up, sure one can make a legit case for Paul. I just don't know if Paul has that trust. I do know he tries to save himself for the playoffs.

naps
12-20-2013, 06:31 PM
Chris Paul may be the better player but Isiah was just perfect for that team. I tend to say no the pistons wouldn't win more. Isiah was their general on and off the court. He orchestrated that bad-boy image. Dude was a tough guy.

CP3 is one of my favorite players of all-time, but it's about damn time he should not get free passes for not advancing farther in the post-season. I understand he didn't have a good enough team in NO but there should not be any excuse with this Clippers team. Sometimes, it's not about just how good you are playing individually (as CP3 always does in playoffs), as a leader getting the best out of your guys is your responsibility too.

Chicaaago
12-20-2013, 07:27 PM
I do think Paul is the better player overall, but it is still hard to say. The hatred between rivals back then was palpable. I'm not sure if defenses were better or worse back then statistically, but being able to send a message by ****ing someone up coming into the lane with an elbow or clothesline does have an impact. It can and did knock certain players off their games. I don't see the mental toughness in Paul that a lot of the great ones/leaders possessed back then. It isn't a nostalgic thing either. It's just a consequence of the evolution of the athletes of today and rule changes. I definitely think today's NBA has far more athleticism. It's undeniable and that is something yesterday's player would probably have to adjust to. The lack of physical play is simply an evolution of the game just as the significance/reliance of the 3 point shot, the ticky tack officiating of post play, and again the increased athleticism overall of big men have lead to the disappearance of dominant C's and in turn has lead to the NBA stretch 4 and disparity between star PFs and star C's. The game is thus transformed making it difficult to compare players and teams across eras, as it usually is anyway despite the fact the one player plays in the era that directly followed the other player's own era.

Ultimately, there's no way to know how Paul would handle the physical play since he and his peers haven't had to deal with that style of play and that's something he would have had to play through were he on those Pistons teams. Today the NBA for better or worse is a country club atmosphere in terms of its competitiveness and fraternizing. The guys back then respected each other (well some probably didn't even respect Zeke, and hated him instead), but on the court it was cut throat come the playoffs in the EAST. I just don't see the Pistons getting out of the East with Paul. I've always thought he was a bit of a punk who if thrust into that era would crumble when challenged with the kind of physical and admittedly at times unnecessarily violent playoff atmosphere. I mean really, this era of ball players being coddled at every turn, wheel chaired off court for phantom injuries or "injuries" that leave them day-to-day, makes it difficult to believe with any confidence they'd be able to perform at their optimum level of play. Mental fortitude in the face of extreme physical post season play appears to be one element of the game that is being phased out of the game die to rule changes. It would appear to be a better game with all the athleticism in today's game especially at the perimeter allowed to flourish and go nearly unhindered to the hoop. Certainly there's less fear of getting a knot on your head. Very few players would even think to gun for someone much less a star player these days. Maybe a shove here or there, but as a consequence these players are less gladiator, more show pony. Rip this apart for the complete lack of tangible statistical analysis, but in sports there is a psychological aspect that really can't be measured by anything other than the eye.

It's very interesting to think about.