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View Full Version : If Wade gave us three more years of solid basketball to add to his resume.....



kjoke
12-15-2013, 04:12 PM
For example if Wade from age 31-34 gave us roughly around the same production he gave in his '10-'11 season (25-6-5) and was to win 2 more championships,which is still a possibility, do you think Wade would surpass Kobe?

Essentially, do you think that if Wade had longevity he would be deemed the better player?

Hawkeye15
12-15-2013, 04:15 PM
I don't think so. He still wouldn't have near the longevity. And honestly, do you really see Wade playing that well the next few years, when he has shown he is breaking down?

THE MTL
12-15-2013, 04:16 PM
At this point it's not about accolades anymore. But players have a brillant resume so championships etc dont matter. Wade will only surpass Kobe if he is better than him which he is not

kjoke
12-15-2013, 04:19 PM
I don't think so. He still wouldn't have near the longevity. And honestly, do you really see Wade playing that well the next few years, when he has shown he is breaking down?

I mean to say that if Wade gave us three more solid years and any point in time. I don't think Wade will ever again turn into the player I loved. This is more of a hypothetical

kjoke
12-15-2013, 04:22 PM
At this point it's not about accolades anymore. But players have a brillant resume so championships etc dont matter. Wade will only surpass Kobe if he is better than him which he is not

Do you really think so? I must be missing something because looking at their stats they seem very similar with Wade seeing to have the slight advantage.

Ebbs
12-15-2013, 04:22 PM
No I doubt it. Also Wade will never have a 25 - 6 - 5 season again.

NoahH
12-15-2013, 04:23 PM
Maybe if he played that well, but I doubt Wade ever comes close to 25-6-5 again.

ThaDubs
12-15-2013, 04:36 PM
I don't think so. He still wouldn't have near the longevity. And honestly, do you really see Wade playing that well the next few years, when he has shown he is breaking down?

Averaging 20+ points, 5+ rebounds, and 5+ assists in the last 10 games on 58% FG.

Not really "breaking down".

warfelg
12-15-2013, 04:39 PM
Wade needs to reinvent himself like Jason Richardson did.

No longer can jump but became a heck of a shooter.

Bruno
12-15-2013, 04:59 PM
wade will never surpass Kobe. he can solidify himself comfortably as the third greatest SG in league history.

jerellh528
12-15-2013, 05:07 PM
That's highly improbable, in fact, chances are Kobe will average those numbers again before wade does, so nah I don't think so. But on the bright side, your team just won back to back rings, I would focus on that instead of something that would never happen, like wade surpassing Kobe.

FlashBolt
12-15-2013, 05:09 PM
wade will never surpass Kobe. he can solidify himself comfortably as the third greatest SG in league history.

Which is no small feat. He's a legend and a top 20 for sure. I just think he's not as explosive and relies heavily on James to get him easy buckets. Dwyane Wade is good off the ball and that's why he's able to fit into the system. The only issue I have with Wade is whether or not he can duplicate 80% of what he does in the regular season. When you have Paul George and the entire Pacers lineup gunning for you, you're not going to be able to get those easy lobs and paint passes. I am glad Spoelstra has taken the initiative to have Wade rest games like Pop seems to do. Wade's knee is going to be a problem and it won't ever recover but he's been insanely efficient thus far. I would like to see Wade play around 50 games and not play the 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs. Sounds silly but it's a risk worth taking come playoff time. They only have to worry about the Pacers and the WCF. Heck, if Pacers manage to lose, they shouldn't even have to play Wade until the Finals.

gatkins11
12-15-2013, 05:40 PM
No I doubt it. Also Wade will never have a 25 - 6 - 5 season again.

Agreed.

Dade County
12-15-2013, 06:31 PM
Wade will finish as the 2nd greatest SG ever...

I believe he will have 3 to 4 more rings before his career is over, he just needs to win 1 more Finals MVP (I don't know how he is going to do that, because of Lbj)... But I feel that if Wade does get another Finals MVP, he would need to get it in Wade like fashion, 30+pts per game over the series (nothing like when Kobe won it over gasol, when gasol clearly had the better numbers, and actually played better (but Laker fans like bringing up that Kobe has 2 Final's Mvp's...smh).

Wade will finish hire then Kobe, numbers wise, rings wise...etc (Not league Mvp though)

ThaDubs
12-15-2013, 06:37 PM
Wade will finish as the 2nd greatest SG ever...

I believe he will have 3 to 4 more rings before his career is over, he just needs to win 1 more Finals MVP (I don't know how he is going to do that, because of Lbj)... But I feel that if Wade does get another Finals MVP, he would need to get it in Wade like fashion, 30+pts per game over the series (nothing like when Kobe won it over gasol, when gasol clearly had the better numbers, and actually played better (but Laker fans like bringing up that Kobe has 2 Final's Mvp's...smh).

Wade will finish hire then Kobe, numbers wise, rings wise...etc (Not league Mvp though)

No.

NYMetros
12-15-2013, 06:39 PM
Wade will finish as the 2nd greatest SG ever...

I believe he will have 3 to 4 more rings before his career is over, he just needs to win 1 more Finals MVP (I don't know how he is going to do that, because of Lbj)... But I feel that if Wade does get another Finals MVP, he would need to get it in Wade like fashion, 30+pts per game over the series (nothing like when Kobe won it over gasol, when gasol clearly had the better numbers, and actually played better (but Laker fans like bringing up that Kobe has 2 Final's Mvp's...smh).

Wade will finish hire then Kobe, numbers wise, rings wise...etc (Not league Mvp though)

That was ridiculous. No way Kobe deserved that Finals MVP in 2010 over Gasol.

Pakman
12-15-2013, 06:42 PM
Wade will finish as the 2nd greatest SG ever...

I believe he will have 3 to 4 more rings before his career is over, he just needs to win 1 more Finals MVP (I don't know how he is going to do that, because of Lbj)... But I feel that if Wade does get another Finals MVP, he would need to get it in Wade like fashion, 30+pts per game over the series (nothing like when Kobe won it over gasol, when gasol clearly had the better numbers, and actually played better (but Laker fans like bringing up that Kobe has 2 Final's Mvp's...smh).

Wade will finish hire then Kobe, numbers wise, rings wise...etc (Not league Mvp though)Spoken like a true homer. I applaud you staying true, but you're completely wrong

Hawkeye15
12-15-2013, 07:47 PM
I mean to say that if Wade gave us three more solid years and any point in time. I don't think Wade will ever again turn into the player I loved. This is more of a hypothetical

Wade's issue is his injuries already though. They wiped out a peak season, and he has had 2 very pedestrian playoff runs for a star player on 2/3 rings. I don't think there is any way he can catch Kobe unless he finds the fountain of youth.

Part of what makes Kobe the all time better player is the fact that he DIDN'T suffer any season altering injuries, and was always healthy enough to enjoy strong playoff runs. There just isn't any possible way I can see Wade catching Kobe, even if I think he may have had a couple of individually better seasons.

Hawkeye15
12-15-2013, 07:50 PM
Averaging 20+ points, 5+ rebounds, and 5+ assists in the last 10 games on 58% FG.

Not really "breaking down".

missed over 1/4 of his teams games already this year, and 2 meh playoff runs due to injuries/wear and tear in the past 2 seasons.

He is breaking down. In order to pass Kobe, Wade would need to be the 75+ games played, 25/5 player he was a few years ago. Not happening.

ThaDubs
12-15-2013, 07:52 PM
missed over 1/4 of his teams games already this year, and 2 meh playoff runs due to injuries/wear and tear in the past 2 seasons.

He is breaking down. In order to pass Kobe, Wade would need to be the 75+ games played, 25/5 player he was a few years ago. Not happening.

I know it's not happening, I'm just saying he is still playing very well and "breaking down" wasn't really the words I would have picked.

Hawkeye15
12-15-2013, 07:57 PM
I know it's not happening, I'm just saying he is still playing very well and "breaking down" wasn't really the words I would have picked.

what would you have picked, considering he looked like a shell of himself for well over half of his past 2 playoff runs because of wear and tear? I am not saying the man has become a role player. I am saying the meter is without a doubt pointing down now for Wade.

Dade County
12-15-2013, 08:19 PM
Spoken like a true homer. I applaud you staying true, but you're completely wrong


:laugh2:... Thank you.



but you're completely wrong

Wrong about what?


http://theleaguenews.us/dwyane-wade-is-better-than-kobe-bryant/


Dwyane Wade will probably never average 35 points or score 81 points in a single game. However, basketball is not all about scoring, so it’s wrong to think that Bryant is better than Wade just because of his scoring ability. Besides, we don’t know for sure if Bryant is a better scorer, since Dwyane Wade doesn’t take as many shots as Kobe does. As a matter of fact, Kobe Bryant has averaged 2 more field goal attempts than Wade during his career, yet his scoring average is just a bit better than Wade’s.

I know that stats cannot show the whole story and players’ skills, but they show the majority of it. The fact is that Wade’s stats are better than Bryant’s even if Wade has gone through many injuries in his career, while Bryant stayed healthy for the most of his time in the league.

Shlumpledink
12-15-2013, 08:30 PM
There are many other factors that correlate with stats. Stats aren't the result of being great, wade and kobe might have similar stats, but one is clearly better than the other. There are many examples throughout the history of basketball where two players can have similar stats, but one player is clearly better than the other.

Wade has always been a more efficient scorer, in terms of field goal percentage, and has been a better shotblocker, in terms of actually blocking more shots.

Kobe through a large part of his career was one of the best off ball defenders we've seen, and a good lock down defender onball. Lately, as in the past 3 or 4 seasons, he has been waiting in the wings a lot and playing a gambling/lazy defense.

Also, Kobe has had his stats held down by a variety of factors, and has played out his career in a much tougher division and conference. Playing twice as many games against western conference teams hurts your stats as much as playing against eastern conference teams twice as often helps your stats.

Although Wade, and Kobe have both played with superstars at the top of their game, Wade's superstar teammate has never been criticized for being selfish, so it would be harder to argue that his game has hurt Wade's own game. While it has been debated how much Shaq has helped or hurt Kobe's game.

tl;dr
Kobe is better than Wade, stats don't tell the whole story.

Ebbs
12-15-2013, 09:08 PM
:laugh2:... Thank you.




Wrong about what?

It's extreme homers like you that remind me why I didn't miss this site on a 4 month hiatus.

Dade County
12-15-2013, 09:13 PM
It's extreme homers like you that remind me why I didn't miss this site on a 4 month hiatus.

A Laker fan saying crap like that... Lmao

ThaDubs
12-15-2013, 09:21 PM
A Laker fan saying crap like that... Lmao

So what if he's a Lakers fan? He's still right.

Ebbs
12-15-2013, 09:25 PM
A Laker fan saying crap like that... Lmao

I'm not a Lakers fan. I'm a Mavericks fan. That's a redraft team.

Regardless fools like you make good honest fans hate the game, in a large part due to stupidity and arrogance.


So what if he's a Lakers fan? He's still right.

Thank you.

Lakers + Giants
12-15-2013, 09:27 PM
Honestly wade would have to win another Finals MVP and still be a top 5 player to catch up or surpass kobe.

PartyPoison15
12-15-2013, 09:29 PM
Lolololol..

Wade being better then Kobe?

In his wildest wet dreams maybe. He had a few great seasons, and he carried a team through and won a championship in amazing fashion for his 1st title... He'd have to do that. Again. and then again. and then again. He will never be the dominant player Kobe was. EVERRRRR..

I HATE Kobe, and this question is just silly. It's not ALL about the numbers, to surpass Kobe he'd have to be the man on top for a looooooong period of time. And with that man breaking down as fast as he is? No way in hell. Sorry, if you think so. But no. No.. Just.... No.

Hawkeye15
12-15-2013, 09:31 PM
A Laker fan saying crap like that... Lmao

he is not a Lakers fan..

jerellh528
12-15-2013, 09:39 PM
It's funny the heat fans have the same thread going in their forum and everyone was agreeing with it. Then they brought it out to main forum and got laughed outta town lol.

nastynice
12-15-2013, 09:44 PM
At this point it's not about accolades anymore. But players have a brillant resume so championships etc dont matter. Wade will only surpass Kobe if he is better than him which he is not

lol, couldn't have said it better myself. There's really nothing else to say on the topic

beliges
12-15-2013, 09:52 PM
If wade can win another 2-3 titles with at least 1 more finals MVP, a regular season MVP, 4-5 more 1st team all nba selections, 4-5 more 1st team all defense selections, a scoring title or two and 4+ seasons of top.5 basketball, there may be a respectable argument one can make. But at this point its near impossible for wade to finish on kobes level.

still1ballin
12-15-2013, 10:19 PM
Wade will finish as the 2nd greatest SG ever...

I believe he will have 3 to 4 more rings before his career is over, he just needs to win 1 more Finals MVP (I don't know how he is going to do that, because of Lbj)... But I feel that if Wade does get another Finals MVP, he would need to get it in Wade like fashion, 30+pts per game over the series (nothing like when Kobe won it over gasol, when gasol clearly had the better numbers, and actually played better (but Laker fans like bringing up that Kobe has 2 Final's Mvp's...smh).

Wade will finish hire then Kobe, numbers wise, rings wise...etc (Not league Mvp though)

wat?

canefandynasty
12-15-2013, 10:58 PM
Wade is a better individual talent than Kobe IMO, but Kobe's has crazy longevity that won't be mirrored by Wade. Injuries have derailed his career somewhat.

WadeKobe
12-16-2013, 12:28 AM
What has been true for years will remain true. When Wade has been on the floor, he has been the better player than Kobe.
However, time in the floor matters, and Wade has missed way too much time. Kobe will have the more valuable career due to both durability (ability to playful seasons), and longevity (ability to play a lot of seasons).

Wade won't pass him. Again, Wade was the better player when he was on the floor. But Kobe was too good, too often, for too long. Wade doesn't stand a chance. I do think he is generally underrated by most fans (esp Kobe fans), but he won't catch Kobe.

Btw, Wade wasn't injured last year due to wear and tear or breaking down. It was a contact-induced injury. That matters when discussing future. He isn't as bad off as people act.

WES KOAST
12-16-2013, 01:00 AM
no. kobe is a machine. but wade averaging those numbers would def give the heat a better chance of winning 3 more titles

Dade County
12-16-2013, 01:03 AM
If wade can win another 2-3 titles with at least 1 more finals MVP, a regular season MVP, 4-5 more 1st team all nba selections, 4-5 more 1st team all defense selections, a scoring title or two and 4+ seasons of top.5 basketball, there may be a respectable argument one can make. But at this point its near impossible for wade to finish on kobes level.

Wtf... No

WES KOAST
12-16-2013, 01:06 AM
What has been true for years will remain true. When Wade has been on the floor, he has been the better player than Kobe.
However, time in the floor matters, and Wade has missed way too much time. Kobe will have the more valuable career due to both durability (ability to playful seasons), and longevity (ability to play a lot of seasons).

Wade won't pass him. Again, Wade was the better player when he was on the floor. But Kobe was too good, too often, for too long. Wade doesn't stand a chance. I do think he is generally underrated by most fans (esp Kobe fans), but he won't catch Kobe.

Btw, Wade wasn't injured last year due to wear and tear or breaking down. It was a contact-induced injury. That matters when discussing future. He isn't as bad off as people act.

I totally disagree, and I hate kobe and the lakers but im objective enough to know your that in my opinion, your opinion is incorrect.

Dade County
12-16-2013, 01:12 AM
So what if he's a Lakers fan? He's still right.

Your opinion.

That has nothing to do with me.



I'm not a Lakers fan. I'm a Mavericks fan. That's a redraft team.

Regardless fools like you make good honest fans hate the game, in a large part due to stupidity and arrogance.



Thank you.

Homer? stupidity? arrogance?...

Because I believe that Wade will be the 2nd best SG ever when all is said and done...smh

So because I have my on opinion that doesn't coincide with the sheep, i am the fool, and or stupid and arrogate.

LMAO!!!

TheBigChief
12-16-2013, 01:13 AM
Coming from a bulls/bobcats fan.....dwayne wade is not even in the same stratosphere as kobe.....wade is only relevant when he has shaq or lebron carrying his butt on their backs.....additionally, wade cant see kobe's individual acheivements with a telescope...its not even close, STOP IT

Ebbs
12-16-2013, 01:31 AM
Your opinion.

That has nothing to do with me.




Homer? stupidity? arrogance?...

Because I believe that Wade will be the 2nd best SG ever when all is said and done...smh

So because I have my on opinion that doesn't coincide with the sheep, i am the fool, and or stupid and arrogate.

LMAO!!!

You're a sheep dummy, a sheep of the Miami flock.

I don't even like a Kobe. I strongly dislike him in fact. But Kobe's fire to improve his game vastly out weighs Wades.

Kobe has an MVP Wade never will.

Kobe has 5 championship, seriously doubt Wade gets to 5.

Kobe will have more all star, and more all nba first teams when it's all said and done.

Kobe was arguably the best player on two or three of his five championship teams. Wade was the best player on a championship team once.

Wade has clearly began to regress I don't know where you think Wade will pick up all the slack.

WadeKobe
12-16-2013, 03:03 AM
I totally disagree, and I hate kobe and the lakers but im objective enough to know your that in my opinion, your opinion is incorrect.

Every single
Composite advanced stat agrees. Every. Single. One. Per minute, when on the court, Wade has been better. You can disagree, but te evidence is on my side, not yours.

Again, performance is valuable as it is replicated over time. Kobe was way too good, way too consitently, for way too long.

Supreme LA
12-16-2013, 06:19 AM
Okay so this thread doesn't come up every other week.

I understand by now that as long as the Heat are winning, the majority of fans in the NBA forum will be dominated by Heat fans trying to push their opinions to everyone else. This just gets old after a while.

Supreme LA
12-16-2013, 06:26 AM
Every single
Composite advanced stat agrees. Every. Single. One. Per minute, when on the court, Wade has been better. You can disagree, but te evidence is on my side, not yours.

Again, performance is valuable as it is replicated over time. Kobe was way too good, way too consitently, for way too long.

What I don't understand is how valuable are your precious advance stats if they don't tell you how bad Kobe abuses Wade on the block. I mean seriously, do your stats record how many times Wade screams for help when Kobe is backing him down? Wade has never been able to guard Kobe.

If I continually abuse you on the court you would have to admit I was better than you. You will never convince anyone other than Heat fans that Wade has been better than Kobe on the court.

WadeKobe
12-16-2013, 08:03 AM
What I don't understand is how valuable are your precious advance stats if they don't tell you how bad Kobe abuses Wade on the block. I mean seriously, do your stats record how many times Wade screams for help when Kobe is backing him down? Wade has never been able to guard Kobe.

If I continually abuse you on the court you would have to admit I was better than you. You will never convince anyone other than Heat fans that Wade has been better than Kobe on the court.

Lol. Seeing as how none of this post is true.... Lol

Chrisclover
12-16-2013, 08:11 AM
will never. Kobe is and will be in this decade the most popular NBA player around the globe, no matter he gets his 6th ring or not
For example if Wade from age 31-34 gave us roughly around the same production he gave in his '10-'11 season (25-6-5) and was to win 2 more championships,which is still a possibility, do you think Wade would surpass Kobe?

Essentially, do you think that if Wade had longevity he would be deemed the better player?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-16-2013, 09:35 AM
never ever.

close thread.

Kobe is the 2nd greatest SG ever and will be for a long time.

Chrisclover
12-16-2013, 10:14 AM
During last playoffs series against the pacers, PSD was filled with attacks on Wade, which said he was washed -up(low scores, low FG %), he was so dirty(flagrant fouls ). I wonder when this kind of comments will resurrect
I don't think so. He still wouldn't have near the longevity. And honestly, do you really see Wade playing that well the next few years, when he has shown he is breaking down?

Heatcheck
12-16-2013, 10:19 AM
this **** is ridiculous, this is like the fifth variation of the same thread. let it go.

Chrisclover
12-16-2013, 10:21 AM
Put Wade into the West, he might not be the 2nd most -voted Allstar behind Kobe, it's as clear as day that Harden steamrolles him

Heatcheck
12-16-2013, 10:23 AM
Lol. Seeing as how none of this post is true.... Lol

that guys hilarious, he just makes statements, and assumes there's nowhere to go on the internet to verify them. last time it was Wade cant be as good as Kobe because kobe beats him everytime they play, and that's the whole point right? winning the game.

Chrisclover
12-16-2013, 10:30 AM
Haha, Kobe was the dunk contest champion which Wade was not ,is not, and will not:rolleyes: here in terms of accolades,Wade lags way behind
At this point it's not about accolades anymore. But players have a brillant resume so championships etc dont matter. Wade will only surpass Kobe if he is better than him which he is not

PurpleLynch
12-16-2013, 10:54 AM
Wade will finish as the 2nd greatest SG ever...

I believe he will have 3 to 4 more rings before his career is over, he just needs to win 1 more Finals MVP (I don't know how he is going to do that, because of Lbj)... But I feel that if Wade does get another Finals MVP, he would need to get it in Wade like fashion, 30+pts per game over the series (nothing like when Kobe won it over gasol, when gasol clearly had the better numbers, and actually played better (but Laker fans like bringing up that Kobe has 2 Final's Mvp's...smh).

Wade will finish hire then Kobe, numbers wise, rings wise...etc (Not league Mvp though)

Absolutely no.

Chrisclover
12-16-2013, 11:13 AM
Also apply to Kobe. I guess Kobe will have 21+5+5?
No I doubt it. Also Wade will never have a 25 - 6 - 5 season again.

Chrisclover
12-16-2013, 11:25 AM
If LBJ ends up somewhere else in the next 2years , then Wade has a shot to be like that
Maybe if he played that well, but I doubt Wade ever comes close to 25-6-5 again.

beliges
12-16-2013, 11:28 AM
If wade can win another 2-3 titles with at least 1 more finals MVP, a regular season MVP, 4-5 more 1st team all nba selections, 4-5 more 1st team all defense selections, a scoring title or two and 4+ seasons of top.5 basketball, there may be a respectable argument one can make. But at this point its near impossible for wade to finish on kobes level.

Wtf... No

Huh? If wade has any chance at being on kobes level he's gonna need the accolades.

nickdymez
12-16-2013, 12:03 PM
Wade will finish as the 2nd greatest SG ever...

I believe he will have 3 to 4 more rings before his career is over, he just needs to win 1 more Finals MVP (I don't know how he is going to do that, because of Lbj)... But I feel that if Wade does get another Finals MVP, he would need to get it in Wade like fashion, 30+pts per game over the series (nothing like when Kobe won it over gasol, when gasol clearly had the better numbers, and actually played better (but Laker fans like bringing up that Kobe has 2 Final's Mvp's...smh).

Wade will finish hire then Kobe, numbers wise, rings wise...etc (Not league Mvp though)

Bait thread. Bought to you by the Miami Heat fans...

nickdymez
12-16-2013, 12:04 PM
Also apply to Kobe. I guess Kobe will have 21+5+5?

Kobe's not playing with Lebron James bro.

Chrisclover
12-16-2013, 12:15 PM
But he is hurt and declining.IF he want to prolong his career and surpass Jordan in terms of individual stats , he shouldnt force too many shots like before, so as to avoid unnecessary injuries(he tried too hard and that was why he torn his achilles ).come on, just focus on more jump shots like what the old Jordan did

Also apply to Kobe. I guess Kobe will have 21+5+5?

Kobe's not playing with Lebron James bro.

BoSox47
12-16-2013, 12:32 PM
Its a joke someone even thinks dwade is in the same category as kobe. Dwades great and hof bound but kobes offense is so much better and dwades defense compared to kobe is a joke

nickdymez
12-16-2013, 01:43 PM
But he is hurt and declining.IF he want to prolong his career and surpass Jordan in terms of individual stats , he shouldnt force too many shots like before, so as to avoid unnecessary injuries(he tried too hard and that was why he torn his achilles ).come on, just focus on more jump shots like what the old Jordan did

Kobe is coming off one of his best statistical years ever, so the declining comment is odd.. The injury is the only concern. Also, how could you not like a player for trying to hard? And you obviously really dont watch Kobe play. He rarely does the high flying act, he's more of a jump shooter than ever and shooting at a pretty decent percent.

Tony_Starks
12-16-2013, 01:43 PM
Its a joke someone even thinks dwade is in the same category as kobe. Dwades great and hof bound but kobes offense is so much better and dwades defense compared to kobe is a joke

This

shep33
12-16-2013, 01:51 PM
I mean to say that if Wade gave us three more solid years and any point in time. I don't think Wade will ever again turn into the player I loved. This is more of a hypothetical

Wade also played in an era where the Eastern conference was perhaps the worst its ever been in history, while Kobe played in perhaps the strongest conference over his run that we may have ever seen.

TylerSL
12-16-2013, 01:57 PM
Wade will never put up those stats ever again. However I do believe Dwyane Wade will stay relevant for the next couple of years. He is still an elite defender and a very good #2 option. Here is a breakdown of Wade's production the last couple of seasons

10-11 25/6/5 .500 FG% 76 games

11-12 22/5/5 .497 FG% 49 games (out of 66)

12-13 21/5/5 .521 FG% 69 games

13-14 19/5/5 .528 FG% 17 games (out of 23)

Wade's scoring has dipped for a number of reasons. He has lost some of his explosiveness so he does not get to the rim as easily, he does not get to be the primary ball handler for the majority of the game anymore, plays less minutes due to injury, and him being less aggressive overall. While he has declined, it is very overblown by most people. If Lebron James was not on the team, Wade's scoring would go back up to 24-26 points/game and he would be regarded as he was pre-Lebron/Bosh, but his efficiency would go way down and his risk of injury would greatly increase IMO. Here is what I believe is very realistic for Wade in the coming seasons

13-14 20-5-5 .520 FG% 60 games (age 31-32)

14-15 19/4/4 .510 FG% 54 games (age 32-33)

15-16 18/4/4 .490 FG% 55 games (age 33-34)

After this Wade will probably sign a short extension to end his career in Miami just as Kobe has with the Lakers. My guess, something like 2 years 26 million. I am not sure if the Big 3 will still be together at this point, (although I expect them all fulfill all 6 years of their contracts) but Wade will play those last years with the Heat and finish his playing career. At this point it would only be speculation and who knows if Miami would even be a good basketball team at this point but I could see his stats in those final years being something like

16-17 17/4/4 .475 FG% 50 games (age 34-35)

17-18 15/3/4 .470 FG% 50 games (age 35-36)

Would finish his entire career in Miami with 20,000+ points, 5000+ rebounds, 5000+ assists, 1500+ steals, 850+ blocks, with a career stat line of 20/5/5 with a career .480 FG%.

These are my expectations for Wade, and while that will never surpass Kobe and he will not be a top 10 player all time. Top 25 is not a stretch IMO and that would clearly make him a first ballot HOF. He will also be the greatest player to never win an MVP IMO. He will be remembered as somebody who battled injuries throughout his career, but when healthy, could change a game like few others. His jersey will not only be retired in Miami, he could very well get his own statue outside the American Airlines Arena.

nickdymez
12-16-2013, 02:06 PM
Wade will never put up those stats ever again. However I do believe Dwyane Wade will stay relevant for the next couple of years. He is still an elite defender and a very good #2 option. Here is a breakdown of Wade's production the last couple of seasons

10-11 25/6/5 .500 FG% 76 games

11-12 22/5/5 .497 FG% 49 games (out of 66)

12-13 21/5/5 .521 FG% 69 games

13-14 19/5/5 .528 FG% 17 games (out of 23)

Wade's scoring has dipped for a number of reasons. He has lost some of his explosiveness so he does not get to the rim as easily, he does not get to be the primary ball handler for the majority of the game anymore, plays less minutes due to injury, and him being less aggressive overall. While he has declined, it is very overblown by most people. If Lebron James was not on the team, Wade's scoring would go back up to 24-26 points/game and he would be regarded as he was pre-Lebron/Bosh, but his efficiency would go way down and his risk of injury would greatly increase IMO. Here is what I believe is very realistic for Wade in the coming seasons

13-14 20-5-5 .520 FG% 60 games (age 31-32)

14-15 19/4/4 .510 FG% 54 games (age 32-33)

15-16 18/4/4 .490 FG% 55 games (age 33-34)

After this Wade will probably sign a short extension to end his career in Miami just as Kobe has with the Lakers. My guess, something like 2 years 26 million. I am not sure if the Big 3 will still be together at this point, (although I expect them all fulfill all 6 years of their contracts) but Wade will play those last years with the Heat and finish his playing career. At this point it would only be speculation and who knows if Miami would even be a good basketball team at this point but I could see his stats in those final years being something like

16-17 17/4/4 .475 FG% 50 games (age 34-35)

17-18 15/3/4 .470 FG% 50 games (age 35-36)

Would finish his entire career in Miami with 20,000+ points, 5000+ rebounds, 5000+ assists, 1500+ steals, 1000+ blocks, with a career stat line of 20/5/5 with a career .485 FG%.

These are my expectations for Wade, and while that will never surpass Kobe and he will not be a top 10 player all time. Top 25 is not a stretch IMO and that would clearly make him a first ballot HOF. He will also be the greatest player to never win an MVP IMO.

I agree. Although i actually have Wade in the top 13-17 area if he keeps up putting solid numbers and decent playoff runs. Definitely top 3 shooting guard of all time.

Dade County
12-16-2013, 02:26 PM
You're a sheep dummy, a sheep of the Miami flock.

smh...Umad




I don't even like a Kobe. I strongly dislike him in fact. But Kobe's fire to improve his game vastly out weighs Wades.

Kobe has an MVP Wade never will.

Wade should have won 1, but Lbj Cav's had a better record, even though Wade had the better season, what do you want me to do about that?

And Wade has worked on his game, it's just that he is a rhythm shooter... But he can't dominate the ball anymore because the HEAT are stacked.



Kobe has 5 championship, seriously doubt Wade gets to 5.

Whats wrong with you, don't let the con-artist fool you... The HEAT are not losing to anyone this post season or next.

Wade will get 5 or more rings.




Kobe will have more all star, and more all nba first teams when it's all said and done.

Wade will have more titles (or =) and better over all numbers (not over all scoring points though)... When all is said and done.



Kobe was arguably the best player on two or three of his five championship teams. Wade was the best player on a championship team once.

If Wade played with prime shaq, Wade would have more titles then Kobe, so what...

Kobe was never better then shaq, when they won together. Kobe wasn't even better the Gasol when they had to face Boston again, in the finals; so I still don't know why he was given a Final's Mvp.




Wade has clearly began to regress I don't know where you think Wade will pick up all the slack.

Watch and see.

TylerSL
12-16-2013, 02:30 PM
Its a joke someone even thinks dwade is in the same category as kobe. Dwades great and hof bound but kobes offense is so much better and dwades defense compared to kobe is a joke

Although I believe Kobe is better than Wade, Wade is the better defender. Last couple of years, Kobe has been atrocious.

jerellh528
12-16-2013, 02:45 PM
Although I believe Kobe is better than Wade, Wade is the better defender. Last couple of years, Kobe has been atrocious.

Kobe's defense was head and shoulders above wades at 31, wade's current age. Lets see if wade is still even the league at 35, bryant's current age.

TylerSL
12-16-2013, 02:48 PM
smh...Umad




Wade should have won 1, but Lbj Cav's had a better record, even though Wade had the better season, what do you want me to do about that?

And Wade has worked on his game, it's just that he is a rhythm shooter... But he can't dominate the ball anymore because the HEAT are stacked.



Whats wrong with you, don't let the con-artist fool you... The HEAT are not losing to anyone this post season or next.

Wade will get 5 or more rings.




Wade will have more titles (or =) and better over all numbers (not over all scoring points though)... When all is said and done.



If Wade played with prime shaq, Wade would have more titles then Kobe, so what...

Kobe was never better then shaq, when they won together. Kobe wasn't even better the Gasol when they had to face Boston again, in the finals; so I still don't know why he was given a Final's Mvp.




Watch and see.


5 more rings? I hope so but that is a stretch. Currently Miami has gone to 3 straight NBA Finals and won 2 consecutive titles. My hope for this team is to complete the 3 peat, which in turn would give them 4 consecutive finals appearances and then next season win again and complete a 4 peat, in turn giving them 5 straight finals appearances. So a 4 peat and 5 consecutive Finals appearances is what I hope for this team, and I believe it is possible. Way more possible than 5 more rings. If the Heat accomplish such, this would be where they stand as a team

The record for most consecutive Finals appearances would be as follows

Boston Celtics 10 years (57-66)
Miami Heat 5 years (11-15)
Los Angeles Lakers 4 years (82-85)
Boston Celtics 4 years (84-87)


Here would be the most consecutive Finals wins

Boston Celtics 8 (59-66)
Miami Heat 4 (12-15)
Minneapolis Lakers 3 (52-54)
Chicago Bulls 3 (91-93)
Chicago Bulls 3 (96-98)
Los Angeles Lakers 3 (00-02)

Remember that the Celtics team that won 8 in a row was in a time when the league was much smaller. When the Celtics started their 13 year run that gave them 11 titles and 12 finals appearances there were 8 teams in the NBA, and by the time they finished that run, only 14 teams. If the Heat could win 4 straight titles, and get 5 straight appearances, that would put them above all other teams.

If the Heat can accomplish this IMO, that would give them the greatest run of all time. I would consider it above the Celtics because in todays NBA playoff runs are much longer, and there are 30 teams today, not between 8 and 14. Not taking away what those Celtics did, it was remarkable, but winning a title in 2013 is much harder than winning a title in 1960.

4 consecutive Finals wins and 5 straight appearances is something the Heat can accomplish. It will take health, luck, and much determination, but it not out of the question. Miami winning 5 more rings is not something that will happen.

And see my post above, Wade will never surpass Kobe, but he doesn't have to. He will be one of the greatest players of all time, and be recognized as one of the most loyal/respectable players of all time. He will go down as a great champion. Wade is not Kobe, he is Dwyane Wade.

TylerSL
12-16-2013, 02:49 PM
Kobe's defense was head and shoulders above wades at 31, wade's current age. Lets see if wade is still even the league at 35, bryant's current age.

I would not say head and shoulders better but point taken

WaDe03
12-16-2013, 04:49 PM
Okay so this thread doesn't come up every other week.

I understand by now that as long as the Heat are winning, the majority of fans in the NBA forum will be dominated by Heat fans trying to push their opinions to everyone else. This just gets old after a while.

lol this really is an every week thread I'm tired of it too

nickdymez
12-16-2013, 05:23 PM
lol this really is an every week thread I'm tired of it too

I try and point that out but no one here listens.

kjoke
12-16-2013, 07:31 PM
Every single
Composite advanced stat agrees. Every. Single. One. Per minute, when on the court, Wade has been better. You can disagree, but te evidence is on my side, not yours.

Again, performance is valuable as it is replicated over time. Kobe was way too good, way too consitently, for way too long.

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with this post. One floor, Wade has been better, but when you take account for how many more years Kobe has than Wade, Kobe gets the nod.


That why I asked if three solid years from Wade(hypothetical because I don't see him consistently averaging 25-6-5) would put him ahead of Kobe.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2013, 08:01 PM
Wade also played in an era where the Eastern conference was perhaps the worst its ever been in history, while Kobe played in perhaps the strongest conference over his run that we may have ever seen.

:clap:

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2013, 08:02 PM
Lol @ Thread

ThaDubs
12-16-2013, 08:18 PM
Lol @ Thread

Kobe sucks LeBron swagswagswagswagswag

WadeKobe
12-16-2013, 09:16 PM
Kobe is coming off one of his best statistical years ever, so the declining comment is odd.. The injury is the only concern. Also, how could you not like a player for trying to hard? And you obviously really dont watch Kobe play. He rarely does the high flying act, he's more of a jump shooter than ever and shooting at a pretty decent percent.

No. He isn't. He is comin off his 8th best season according to total Win Shares and his 11th best season on a per-minute basis. Last year was not one of his best seasons statistically.

Hawkeye15
12-16-2013, 09:51 PM
No. He isn't. He is comin off his 8th best season according to total Win Shares and his 11th best season on a per-minute basis. Last year was not one of his best seasons statistically.

Wade still isn't passing him. Ever. Kobe's longevity, and durability, are just too much for Wade's resume to catch.

Dade County
12-16-2013, 11:15 PM
5 more rings? I hope so but that is a stretch. .

No man... I hope Wade can have 5 to 6 rings in total before his career ends.

canefandynasty
12-16-2013, 11:22 PM
What I don't understand is how valuable are your precious advance stats if they don't tell you how bad Kobe abuses Wade on the block. I mean seriously, do your stats record how many times Wade screams for help when Kobe is backing him down? Wade has never been able to guard Kobe.

If I continually abuse you on the court you would have to admit I was better than you. You will never convince anyone other than Heat fans that Wade has been better than Kobe on the court.
H2H Wade has bested Kobe and has a winning record. Kobe averaged 3 more points on better percentages, but Wade has him on rebounds, assists, steals and blocks.

Hawkeye15
12-16-2013, 11:26 PM
H2H Wade has bested Kobe and has a winning record. Kobe averaged 3 more points on better percentages, but Wade has him on rebounds, assists, steals and blocks.

H2H's are arguably the worst way to judge a player imo. Especially those in different conferences who have never seen each other in the playoffs.

Kobe's career >>Wade's. There is just no way around it.

elizabethhill
12-16-2013, 11:29 PM
Wade is a good player. But I think at this point he cannot be better than Bryant.

WadeKobe
12-17-2013, 08:01 AM
Wade still isn't passing him. Ever. Kobe's longevity, and durability, are just too much for Wade's resume to catch.

Those were my exact words, twice now, right???

b@llhog24
12-17-2013, 12:09 PM
What has been true for years will remain true. When Wade has been on the floor, he has been the better player than Kobe.
However, time in the floor matters, and Wade has missed way too much time. Kobe will have the more valuable career due to both durability (ability to playful seasons), and longevity (ability to play a lot of seasons).

Wade won't pass him. Again, Wade was the better player when he was on the floor. But Kobe was too good, too often, for too long. Wade doesn't stand a chance. I do think he is generally underrated by most fans (esp Kobe fans), but he won't catch Kobe.

Btw, Wade wasn't injured last year due to wear and tear or breaking down. It was a contact-induced injury. That matters when discussing future. He isn't as bad off as people act.

This guy gets it.

LeperMessiah
12-17-2013, 12:42 PM
That's a big if.

P&GRealist
12-17-2013, 10:00 PM
Well this same topic was discussed in the Miami Heat forum, and when I chimed in their forum, they didn't like it and so I was banned.

P&GRealist
12-17-2013, 10:02 PM
One joker said that Kobe has been healthy his entire career while Wade has had to deal with injuries, or else if Wade was healthy, he'd be better all throughout. They say Wade had better statistical numbers despite being injured so much over a healthy Kobe.

This was my rebuttal to the Wade lovers who said that Wade's stats were better than Kobe's stats:

Kobe plays hurt and sometimes even injured. Hell, son shot free throws with a blowout achilles and made them. Wade takes games off, parts of seasons off, especially now that LeBron is doing all the work and they have a serviceable partime replacement at that SG in Ray Allen (although he past his prime, dude still in the greatest shape of his career).

The whole notion that Kobe has stayed relatively healthy his entire career is a fallacy and whoever wrote this article probably started watching the NBA maybe 5 yrs ago.

You forget that Kobe didn't play the first 17 games or so of the 1999-2000 season (Phil's 1st season with the Lakers and he taught the entire team the triangle offense in training camp while Kobe was forced to sit out due to a fractured right hand, although he would still practice with his off-hand).

You forget the tendinitis in his knees in his 2002-2003 campaign and still dropping 30.0 ppg, 6.9 rbg, 5.9 apg, 2.2 spg, 38.3% 3's

You forget that bum shoulder and ankle issues in the 2003-2004 campaign while still having Colorado hang over his head

You forget his injury riddled 04-05 campaign in his first yr without Shaq. Kobe only managed to play 66 games and the Lakers didn't make the playoffs.

You forget that Kobe had to get arthroscpic knee surgery in the summer of 2006 following his iconic season of 35.4 ppg. And he comes back after that surgery and still averages 31.6 ppg on better field goal and free throw percentage (a career high as a matter of fact at 86.8%).

You forget the several multiple broken fingers in his SHOOTING hand all the way from 2007-2010, playing in 3 finals with different types of broken fingers.

You forget Kobe starting his 08-09 campaign with a hyperextended knee and still playing when in preseason he injured it and said that he almost saw "the NBA Championship ring flash away right before his eyes", and this was a couple of months after losing to Boston in the finals and Kobe and the Lakers were on a mission to get back and get the chip.

You forget Kobe getting his knee drained 2 times during the 2010 playoffs, basically winning that championship on 1 leg while Wade couldn't even contribute that well as a 2nd fiddle to LeBron when he needed to get his knee drained during the 2012 playoffs.

You forget that Kobe's knee was basically "bone on bone" in the 2010-2011 season, that last season with Phil when Phil admitted that the team wasn't able to develop that chemistry because Kobe physically was not able to practice with his teammates, but the dude still gave it his all during that regular season, seeing his scoring average dip all the way down to 25.3 ppg when in those prime yrs he was averaging 27-28 ppg easily. That season was when Kobe started leaving his prime yrs.

You forget the broken nose that Kobe sustained in the 2011-2012 season and still played with a mask due to your boy Wade's **** move at the all-star game.

Oh, and if we're really talking about stats, might I add that the Lakers had an incompetent stubborn coach in Del Harris that would barely play Kobe his first 2 yrs. Treated Kobe like a **** rookie in his rookie yr, and then Kobe didn't start until his 3rd yr when they traded away Eddie Jones to get Rice and move Rice to the 3 while putting Kobe at the starting 2. Those first 3 yrs of Kobe's career don't do much service to him while Wade was already given the green light in his rookie yr along with guys like a washed up Eddie Jones, solid Lamar Odom and Jamal Mashburn.

Bruno
12-17-2013, 10:18 PM
lots of comedy in this thread.

Ebbs is PSDs biggest Laker homer, why didn't anyone tell me?

Hawkeye15
12-17-2013, 10:27 PM
Those were my exact words, twice now, right???

huh?

WadeKobe
12-17-2013, 10:53 PM
huh?

I said Kobe had too muh durability and too much longevity, so Wade will never catch him.

Then I said it again.

Then someone said Kobe was coming off one of his best statistical seasons.

I said no. No, he is not.

Then you said he still has too muh durability and longevity and Wade will never catch him.

I then asked, didn't I just say exactly that twice already?

Your your post was:

(1) a strange, irrelevant reply to my sayin Kobe is on the decline, rebutting someone suggesting he wasn't.

(2) a strange reply, repeating what I had alreay said twice.

WadeKobe
12-17-2013, 11:08 PM
However, time in the floor matters, and Wade has missed way too much time. Kobe will have the more valuable career due to both durability (ability to playful seasons), and longevity (ability to play a lot of seasons).



Again, performance is valuable as it is replicated over time. Kobe was way too good, way too consitently, for way too long.


Kobe is coming off one of his best statistical years ever, so the declining comment is odd.. The injury is the only concern. Also, how could you not like a player for trying to hard? And you obviously really dont watch Kobe play. He rarely does the high flying act, he's more of a jump shooter than ever and shooting at a pretty decent percent.


No. He isn't. He is comin off his 8th best season according to total Win Shares and his 11th best season on a per-minute basis. Last year was not one of his best seasons statistically.


Wade still isn't passing him. Ever. Kobe's longevity, and durability, are just too much for Wade's resume to catch.


Those were my exact words, twice now, right???

That should explain....

Hawkeye15
12-17-2013, 11:25 PM
I said Kobe had too muh durability and too much longevity, so Wade will never catch him.

Then I said it again.

Then someone said Kobe was coming off one of his best statistical seasons.

I said no. No, he is not.

Then you said he still has too muh durability and longevity and Wade will never catch him.

I then asked, didn't I just say exactly that twice already?

Your your post was:

(1) a strange, irrelevant reply to my sayin Kobe is on the decline, rebutting someone suggesting he wasn't.

(2) a strange reply, repeating what I had alreay said twice.


haha, fine. So we agree that Wade is never passing Kobe.

WadeKobe
12-17-2013, 11:47 PM
haha, fine. So we agree that Wade is never passing Kobe.

Yes. Why tha was somehow in doubt, after a post that never mentioned Wade, makes absolutely no sense.

canefandynasty
12-17-2013, 11:47 PM
If Wade gets the Tim Duncan treatment I can see him producimg for another 5-7 years

Hawkeye15
12-17-2013, 11:57 PM
Yes. Why tha was somehow in doubt, after a post that never mentioned Wade, makes absolutely no sense.

I got it bro. We can go back to being PSD allies now...

JerseyPalahniuk
12-18-2013, 12:57 AM
If Lebron left the Heat and they still won two more rings (with Wade as best player) then I would consider it.

Jarvo
12-18-2013, 01:57 AM
Who cares? He's already a HOF and maybe another ring or two.

beliges
12-18-2013, 01:19 PM
If Wade gets the Tim Duncan treatment I can see him producimg for another 5-7 years

Timmy D is a big man and one of the 10 greatest players ever. I just don't see wade doin what Duncan has been able to do. Wades game was always about quickness and athleticism while Duncans was about fundamentals. It'll be hard for wade to remain that good as the years go by.

Kobe2324
12-18-2013, 01:52 PM
I'm going to try to not sound biassed as Kobe is my fav player....quite simply Wad has zero chance to be considered better than Kobe because Kobe still has a few years to go and he will be at a high level as well, yes hes a step behind right now for obvious reasons but the main dif if Wade has been on the decline for a while and playing less and less...Kobe also has decline a little bit but up untill the injury was still paying at an elite level. Does Wade have a chance to catch him in rings, well yes of course but then you compare stats and resume and this is where kobe really seperates himself, Kobe's stats are far superior to Wade's and his peak years were much longer and much more impressive, in my opinon nothing he does will surpass Kobe, just like I believe nothing Kobe does will surpass MJ it's just to late for that in both cases, but im sure wade can still move up somewhere on that list but he will never be top 10 and kobe is already clearly a top 10 player ever.

P&GRealist
12-18-2013, 02:25 PM
Dwayne Wade's midrange game and jump shot form has gotten worse and worse over the years.

Usually, NBA players work on their game and improve in certain aspects of their game, but aside of being a 2nd fiddle where he hasn't been the center of attention of defenses and capitalizing on that to reach that ridiculous FG%, there hasn't been really anything that Wade has improved upon.

The guy is a cheap shot committing, wanna be MJ and Kobe buffoon tbh. He'll finish top 25-30 among all NBA players for finishing with a good amount of rings, but that's about it. THere's been talented and more entertaining players in this league who have done more for the game than he has.

Comparing him to Kobe is beyond comical.

TylerSL
12-18-2013, 03:34 PM
Dwayne Wade's midrange game and jump shot form has gotten worse and worse over the years.

Usually, NBA players work on their game and improve in certain aspects of their game, but aside of being a 2nd fiddle where he hasn't been the center of attention of defenses and capitalizing on that to reach that ridiculous FG%, there hasn't been really anything that Wade has improved upon.

The guy is a cheap shot committing, wanna be MJ and Kobe buffoon tbh. He'll finish top 25-30 among all NBA players for finishing with a good amount of rings, but that's about it. THere's been talented and more entertaining players in this league who have done more for the game than he has.

Comparing him to Kobe is beyond comical.


1. not it hasnt

2. no he isn't

The bolded parts of your post is just your ignorance and dislike for Wade and your opinion should/will be disregarded.

P&GRealist
12-18-2013, 03:37 PM
1. not it hasnt

2. no he isn't

The bolded parts of your post is just your ignorance and dislike for Wade and your opinion should/will be disregarded.

Ok, the wanna be MJ/Kobe was out of hand.

But you can't deny that he has taken a lot of blatant cheap shots and has tried to hurts guys on purpose. Hell he did it to Kobe in a freakin All-star game. He's kicked Ramon Sessions in the nuts, shoved Rip Hamilton to the floor like a ragged doll (but yet stayed in the game). The guy is dirty dirty dirty.

Tony_Starks
12-18-2013, 03:52 PM
A more reasonable question is: does Wade have a legit shot at being 3rd best sg all time? With relative good health and 1 more ring I say yes....

P&GRealist
12-18-2013, 03:55 PM
A more reasonable question is: does Wade have a legit shot at being 3rd best sg all time? With relative good health and 1 more ring I say yes....

That is a good question, as I don't have him ahead of Jerry West just quite yet. There's something to be said about having the logo after yourself. Jerry West is at my top 15-17. Wade right now isn't even in my top 20.

Tony_Starks
12-18-2013, 04:38 PM
That is a good question, as I don't have him ahead of Jerry West just quite yet. There's something to be said about having the logo after yourself. Jerry West is at my top 15-17. Wade right now isn't even in my top 20.

I'm kind of torn on his all time status. I don't think he gets enough credit for curtailing his game the past 3 years to allow Lebron to be the man. People act like he just fell off but he definitely sacrificed his game.

What he does the next few years will probably be the defining factor. Especially if Lebron leaves....

P&GRealist
12-18-2013, 05:05 PM
I'm kind of torn on his all time status. I don't think he gets enough credit for curtailing his game the past 3 years to allow Lebron to be the man. People act like he just fell off but he definitely sacrificed his game.

What he does the next few years will probably be the defining factor. Especially if Lebron leaves....

I think it's really how he's underperformed for the majority of the last 2 postseasons.

nickdymez
12-18-2013, 05:30 PM
I think it's really how he's underperformed for the majority of the last 2 postseasons.

I hate to do this but Lebron has COMPLETELY underperformed in the last 2 finals and gets a pass.

jerellh528
12-18-2013, 05:33 PM
I think it's really how he's underperformed for the majority of the last 2 postseasons.

Wade in last finals was actually probably their best player during the critical moments.

Tony_Starks
12-18-2013, 07:45 PM
I think it's really how he's underperformed for the majority of the last 2 postseasons.

Underperforming and being injured are two different things. And in the postseason he was always there when they needed him, in particular in games where Lebron froze up.

mngopher35
12-18-2013, 09:27 PM
I hate to do this but Lebron has COMPLETELY underperformed in the last 2 finals and gets a pass.

I will just give you San Antonio since he had a bad start to the series and went 1/3 from 3 late in game 6 (I don't agree, but this isn't my biggest problem with the comment). Please explain to me how he COMPLETELY underperformed in 12 vs the Thunder.

Hawkeye15
12-18-2013, 10:32 PM
I hate to do this but Lebron has COMPLETELY underperformed in the last 2 finals and gets a pass.

he did? 28-10-7.5 on great efficiency, and then 25-11-7 on great efficiency, all while being arguably the best defender on the floor is underperforming?

Interesting (well not really considering the source).

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 12:17 AM
Wade now TOP 10 in FG%. Only guard in the TOP 20 in FG%.

IKnowHoops
12-19-2013, 03:02 AM
he did? 28-10-7.5 on great efficiency, and then 25-11-7 on great efficiency, all while being arguably the best defender on the floor is underperforming?

Interesting (well not really considering the source).

This is a credit to Lebron, there is literally no other player in the NBA who could put up these numbers, yet this is underperforming for Lebron. Lebron has been so dominant, and because he's done it before, he has to put up 35, 9, 11 during every series or he underperformed.

Its funny because the same people will say someone else is better than Bron, yet the guy they refer to couldn't come close, never has, and never will put up Brons last two finals numbers.

IKnowHoops
12-19-2013, 03:08 AM
I actually am probably one of the few that feel Wade at his best was better than Kobe at his best. Its very close, but Wade was harder to stay in front of, he was quicker, more explosive, better defender and a better passer too. But again its very close.

Wade, Tmac, Kobe are as close as it gets

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:15 AM
This is a credit to Lebron, there is literally no other player in the NBA who could put up these numbers, yet this is underperforming for Lebron. Lebron has been so dominant, and because he's done it before, he has to put up 35, 9, 11 during every series or he underperformed.

Its funny because the same people will say someone else is better than Bron, yet the guy they refer to couldn't come close, never has, and never will put up Brons last two finals numbers.

We expect perfection out of a talent like LeBron. Not a single game where they can not totally dominate, or they are criticized. But at the end of the day, when measuring a body of work, nobody has been better since Jordan.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:16 AM
I actually am probably one of the few that feel Wade at his best was better than Kobe at his best. Its very close, but Wade was harder to stay in front of, he was quicker, more explosive, better defender and a better passer too. But again its very close.

Wade, Tmac, Kobe are as close as it gets

Wade has a very strong argument to having a better year or even two than Kobe. But his overall career just doesn't stand up at all. And its not really that close. Hell, TMac had 2 years better than Kobe ever did, but he isn't even a top 50 player. A career is defined by a lot more than a couple of ridiculous peak seasons.

KingstonHawke
12-19-2013, 04:53 AM
Not even close. He would only have the one championship if it wasn't for Lebron coming to town. That's always going to work against him. Even if he did have that sort of longevity, it'd only be because Lebron's presence allowed it. The same hate Kobe used to get when he was playing with the best player in the world (at that time), now Wade has to deal with.

With that said, Wade's lucky that Lebron loves him as much as he does. Wade should've got traded a while ago. Especially when Howard was on the block with the Magic. Wade running around calling himself "3" definitely rubbed James the wrong way.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:57 AM
Not even close. He would only have the one championship if it wasn't for Lebron coming to town. That's always going to work against him. Even if he did have that sort of longevity, it'd only be because Lebron's presence allowed it. The same hate Kobe used to get when he was playing with the best player in the world (at that time), now Wade has to deal with.

for sure. And I just don't think Wade has the ability to play at a top 5 player level much longer, if he even does again. Kobe just trumps him honestly. No shame in being only the 3-4th best SG ever.

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 09:36 AM
for sure. And I just don't think Wade has the ability to play at a top 5 player level much longer, if he even does again. Kobe just trumps him honestly. No shame in being only the 3-4th best SG ever.

If Wade gets the Tim Duncan treatment I can see him having 5 more good years. Right now he's actually TOP 10 in FG% at 20 PPG. It looks like he's finally starting to come around and should be at his best later in the season, like every season. I see him getting to his usual 25 PER and .200 WS/48 by the end of the season, which warrants TOP 5 status IMO.

Lets deviate from comparing his career to Kobe. Yes everyone knows Kobe has the better career. You're stating the obvious, but inspite of people claiming "Wade is done", I think he still has another 5 years in him and should win at least another ring before his career is over.

sammyvine
12-19-2013, 11:40 AM
No way wade is a top 20 player of all time....

he misses games and comes back for the important ones, and when he goes ham in those games, suddenly he is amazing again. Well its easy to be amazing when you play like every other game.

Its not his fault he can't be healthy to play often, but that has to be used against him when talking about greatness. His peak is also quiet short.

Dade County
12-19-2013, 12:02 PM
Not even close. He would only have the one championship if it wasn't for Lebron coming to town. That's always going to work against him. Even if he did have that sort of longevity, it'd only be because Lebron's presence allowed it. The same hate Kobe used to get when he was playing with the best player in the world (at that time), now Wade has to deal with.

It's not hate... It's reality, Kobe would have not had any rings (at that time period), if he wasn't playing with Shaq; But I believe if you place any of the other star palyers that played in there prime in the early 2000's, Shaq would still have rings (T mac, Ai...etc).

But on the other hand, yes Wade got 1 ring as the man (whatever that means)... But Wade would have gotten a 2nd Finals Mvp (maybe lol) if Lbj didn't throw the series to Dallas (believe what you want to)...smh

And Kobe won two rings with out Shaq, but he was only the man in one of those series, because Paul was clearly the better player in that Boston Final's series (truth).

So the way I see, both players got 1 ring being the best player on there team... Let the hate begin!



With that said, Wade's lucky that Lebron loves him as much as he does.

No! Lbj is lucky that Wade didn't blast him and called him out for throwing a Final's series. Averaging like 1.2 pts in the 4th quarter for 4 straight Final's game... Child please.

Con-artist.




Wade should've got traded a while ago. Especially when Howard was on the block with the Magic. Wade running around calling himself "3" definitely rubbed James the wrong way.

Wtf, why would they have had to trade Wade for Howard... Did you see what Orlando got for Howard, and once again, when traded a star player on the last year of his contract the team doesn't really have the leverage.

IKnowHoops
12-19-2013, 12:41 PM
Wade has a very strong argument to having a better year or even two than Kobe. But his overall career just doesn't stand up at all. And its not really that close. Hell, TMac had 2 years better than Kobe ever did, but he isn't even a top 50 player. A career is defined by a lot more than a couple of ridiculous peak seasons.

True

IKnowHoops
12-19-2013, 12:45 PM
If Wade gets the Tim Duncan treatment I can see him having 5 more good years. Right now he's actually TOP 10 in FG% at 20 PPG. It looks like he's finally starting to come around and should be at his best later in the season, like every season. I see him getting to his usual 25 PER and .200 WS/48 by the end of the season, which warrants TOP 5 status IMO.

Lets deviate from comparing his career to Kobe. Yes everyone knows Kobe has the better career. You're stating the obvious, but inspite of people claiming "Wade is done", I think he still has another 5 years in him and should win at least another ring before his career is over.

If Wade can play 5 more years at an all star level (big if, 2 more years would be pushing it) and Bron stays and the Heat reel off a nice run of titles and Wade ends up with three more so six altogether. Then we really need to go back and evaluate the second best sg spot.

IKnowHoops
12-19-2013, 12:47 PM
for sure. And I just don't think Wade has the ability to play at a top 5 player level much longer, if he even does again. Kobe just trumps him honestly. No shame in being only the 3-4th best SG ever.

Would 3-4 more rings and 4 more years of all star play change your mind? Say his ring count gets to 6 or 7?

camador22
12-19-2013, 01:20 PM
Anyone that put Kobe in the top 10 and does not place Wade in the top 20 is a hater. The fact is he's a top 15 player ever and 2 more rings should place him in the top 10. Everyone talks about his decline but they don't realize that he's doing it to support Lebron as the leader.

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 02:44 PM
No way wade is a top 20 player of all time....

he misses games and comes back for the important ones, and when he goes ham in those games, suddenly he is amazing again. Well its easy to be amazing when you play like every other game.

Its not his fault he can't be healthy to play often, but that has to be used against him when talking about greatness. His peak is also quiet short.

WADE
25197 MP | 25.5 PER | .194 WS/48 | 3 rings

PG
Isiah Thomas
35516 MP | 18.1 PER | .109 WS/48 | 2 rings

Walt Clyde Frazier
30965 MP | 19.1 PER | .176 WS/48 | 2 rings

SG
Kobe Bryant
45567 MP | 23.4 PER | .182 WS/48 | 5 rings

Jerry West
36571 MP | 22.9 PER | .213 WS/48 | 1 ring

Clyde Drexler
37537 MP | 21.1 PER | .173 WS/48 | 1 ring

SF
Scottie Pippen
41069 MP | 18.6 PER | .146 WS/48 | 6 rings

PF
Karl Malone
54852 MP | 23.9 PER | .205 WS/48 | 0 rings

Kevin Garnett
48310 MP | 23.0 PER | .186 WS/48 | 1 ring

Charles Barkley
39330 MP | 24.6 PER | .216 WS/48 | 0 ring

Dirk Nowitzki
40753 MP | 23.5 PER | .209 WS/48 | 1 ring

Bob Pettit
30690 MP | 25.3 PER | .213 WS/48 | 1 ring

Elgin Baylor
33863 MP | 22.7 PER | .148 WS/48 | 0 rings

C
David Robinson
34271 MP | 26.2 PER | .250 WS/48 | 1 ring

Patrick Ewing
40594 MP | 21.0 PER | .150 WS/48 | 0 ring

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 02:57 PM
Wade's projected career stats if he gave us 3 more years of all star basketball:

32452 MP | 24.7 PER | .186 WS/48 | 5 rings > 36571 MP | 22.9 PER | .213 WS/48 | 1 ring (West)

Wade would be a TOP 15 player by then.

ModernDaySavage
12-19-2013, 03:13 PM
LeBron sabotaged the finals against Dallas, they must have paid him like $100 or something.

nastynice
12-19-2013, 03:16 PM
why? why is this thread still happening? Its like saying Omer Asik is going to surpass Shaq. Only a super homer will believe so. Wade has NEVER been as dominant as kobe, I don't see what else there is to it. Wade's great, he can go on some amazing streaks, but hell so can steph curry. That's not going to make me say he's the best pg of all time. At no point in time during Wade's career has he been even close to what Kobe was, a consistent dominant player who could carry his team on his back. It's not a knock on Wade, he's awesome, he's a hell of a slasher, he's quick as hell, but c'mon, his offensive game doesn't even hold a candle to Kobe's. 10 years down the line, people are still going to talk about Kobe being the best of his era, do you really think people outside of miami are going to say the same about Wade? People forget their history, cut Kobe's offensive game by half and he'll still **** all over Wade.

nastynice
12-19-2013, 03:17 PM
LeBron sabotaged the finals against Dallas, they must have paid him like $100 or something.

lol, lebron threw away the finals and wade's finals mvp by not carrying the team to the victory. see the contradiction there?

ModernDaySavage
12-19-2013, 03:24 PM
why? why is this thread still happening? Its like saying Omer Asik is going to surpass Shaq. Only a super homer will believe so. Wade has NEVER been as dominant as kobe, I don't see what else there is to it. Wade's great, he can go on some amazing streaks, but hell so can steph curry. That's not going to make me say he's the best pg of all time. At no point in time during Wade's career has he been even close to what Kobe was, a consistent dominant player who could carry his team on his back. It's not a knock on Wade, he's awesome, he's a hell of a slasher, he's quick as hell, but c'mon, his offensive game doesn't even hold a candle to Kobe's. 10 years down the line, people are still going to talk about Kobe being the best of his era, do you really think people outside of miami are going to say the same about Wade? People forget their history, cut Kobe's offensive game by half and he'll still **** all over Wade.

Is this a joke?

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 03:25 PM
why? why is this thread still happening? Its like saying Omer Asik is going to surpass Shaq. Only a super homer will believe so. Wade has NEVER been as dominant as kobe, I don't see what else there is to it. Wade's great, he can go on some amazing streaks, but hell so can steph curry. That's not going to make me say he's the best pg of all time. At no point in time during Wade's career has he been even close to what Kobe was, a consistent dominant player who could carry his team on his back. It's not a knock on Wade, he's awesome, he's a hell of a slasher, he's quick as hell, but c'mon, his offensive game doesn't even hold a candle to Kobe's. 10 years down the line, people are still going to talk about Kobe being the best of his era, do you really think people outside of miami are going to say the same about Wade? People forget their history, cut Kobe's offensive game by half and he'll still **** all over Wade.

Omer Asik CAREER STATS
484 MP | 10.8 PER | 0.078 WS/48 | 0 rings

WADE CAREER STATS
25197 MP | 25.5 PER | 0.194 WS/48 | 3 rings

nastynice
12-19-2013, 04:01 PM
Is this a joke?

of course it is. I'm going with the same theme as the op

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:11 PM
Would 3-4 more rings and 4 more years of all star play change your mind? Say his ring count gets to 6 or 7?

do you really see that happening? Wade has already looked old the last 2 playoff runs. If he starts missing 20 games a year to save himself, that hurts him. And that is really the only way I see him being an all star. Kobe has made 15 all NBA teams to Wades 8. Kobe has an MVP, and Finals MVP. Wade a Finals MVP. Do you really see Wade capable of making an all NBA team ever again? Kobe's resume just tears Wade's up. No way around it.

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 04:12 PM
You do realize you just compared Omer Asik to Wade?

Worst post evrrrr.

nastynice
12-19-2013, 04:14 PM
Omer Asik CAREER STATS
484 MP | 10.8 PER | 0.078 WS/48 | 0 rings

WADE CAREER STATS
25197 MP | 25.5 PER | 0.194 WS/48 | 3 rings

here's my thing with stats, and people trying to make arguments for wade using stats

Kevin Love
ppg-18.2, rpg -12.3, apg - 2.1, ft% - .814

Tim Duncan
ppg - 20.0, rpg - 11.2, apg - 3.1, ft% - .694

Looks like they're pretty comparable. But anyone that WATCHES basketball knows Tim Duncan (in his prime) brought way more to the table than Love. Same way, anyone that WATCHED kobe and wade know kobe just brings way more, they're really not even in the same category

nastynice
12-19-2013, 04:14 PM
You do realize you just compared Omer Asik to Wade?

Worst post evrrrr.

actually YOU did. but nice try lol

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 04:17 PM
do you really see that happening? Wade has already looked old the last 2 playoff runs. If he starts missing 20 games a year to save himself, that hurts him. And that is really the only way I see him being an all star. Kobe has made 15 all NBA teams to Wades 8. Kobe has an MVP, and Finals MVP. Wade a Finals MVP. Do you really see Wade capable of making an all NBA team ever again? Kobe's resume just tears Wade's up. No way around it.

Kobe Bryant
45567 MP | 23.4 PER (31.8 USG%) | .182 WS/48 | 5 rings
Dwyane Wade
25197 MP | 25.5 PER (32.0 USG%) | .194 WS/48 | 3 rings

Kobe has 20000 minutes on Wade, but Wade has better individual numbers, while Kobe has more team success. If Wade plays 3+ more seasons of 25.0 PER | .200 WS/48 ball while winning at least 2 more rings, he and Kobe will be a stalemate.

nickdymez
12-19-2013, 04:18 PM
Kobe Bryant
45567 MP | 23.4 PER (31.8 USG%) | .182 WS/48 | 5 rings
Dwyane Wade
25197 MP | 25.5 PER (32.0 USG%) | .194 WS/48 | 3 rings

Kobe has 20000 minutes on Wade, but Wade has better individual numbers, while Kobe has more team success. If Wade plays 3+ more seasons of 25.0 PER | .200 WS/48 ball while winning at least 2 more rings, he and Kobe will be a stalemate.

Because of advanced stats?

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 04:21 PM
here's my thing with stats, and people trying to make arguments for wade using stats

Kevin Love
ppg-18.2, rpg -12.3, apg - 2.1, ft% - .814

Tim Duncan
ppg - 20.0, rpg - 11.2, apg - 3.1, ft% - .694

Looks like they're pretty comparable. But anyone that WATCHES basketball knows Tim Duncan (in his prime) brought way more to the table than Love. Same way, anyone that WATCHED kobe and wade know kobe just brings way more, they're really not even in the same category

How about you use MY stats. They're much more indicative of a players success:

Duncan
42094 MP | 24.7 PER (27.7 USG%) | .213 WS/48 | 4 rings
Love
10037 MP | 22.6 PER (24.5 USG%) | .179 WS/48 | no rings

It's clear who's the better player using these stats as opposed to yours.

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 04:22 PM
Because of advanced stats?

Advanced stats are way more telling than raw stats. Advanced stats are what seperates the Tim Duncans of the world from the Kevin Loves

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:23 PM
Kobe Bryant
45567 MP | 23.4 PER (31.8 USG%) | .182 WS/48 | 5 rings
Dwyane Wade
25197 MP | 25.5 PER (32.0 USG%) | .194 WS/48 | 3 rings

Kobe has 20000 minutes on Wade, but Wade has better individual numbers, while Kobe has more team success. If Wade plays 3+ more seasons of 25.0 PER | .200 WS/48 ball while winning at least 2 more rings, he and Kobe will be a stalemate.

not when you factor in accolades and awards, and area Kobe is miles ahead in, and will continue to be if Wade continues to get the minutes/games limitation treatment.

nickdymez
12-19-2013, 04:25 PM
Advanced stats are way more telling than raw stats. Advanced stats are what seperates the Tim Duncans of the world from the Kevin Loves

I get what you're saying. But we are talking about who is the better player correct? So in theory what you are saying is that you could never watch a basketball game in your life, look at a papper with advanced stats, and come up with a decisive conclussion of whos better?

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:26 PM
people are really hoping and wishing if they think Wade's body is going to hold up and be a full time elite player for another 400-500 games. His crashing style of game throughout his career was going to always limit his longevity. No way around that. Kobe adapted with age, and hence stayed on the floor a lot longer.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:28 PM
I get what you're saying. But we are talking about who is the better player correct? So in theory what you are saying is that you could never watch a basketball game in your life, look at a papper with advanced stats, and come up with a decisive conclussion of whos better?

If you pulled up both players page, you would see this ridiculously long resume of all NBA teams, all defensive teams, all star games, MVP, 5 rings, blah, blah, blah for Kobe. And half that on Wade's. You would also see games missed for Wade. The resume would still easily point to your guy, trust me. The bulk of the people in here who are claiming there is a chance are banking on Wade being very productive (I mean all NBA level and rings) for another 400 games. Do you see that happening? I sure as hell don't.

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 04:29 PM
not when you factor in accolades and awards, and area Kobe is miles ahead in, and will continue to be if Wade continues to get the minutes/games limitation treatment.
Individual awards can be VERY deceiving. For example:

Tim Duncan never won DPOY
Nash has more season MVPs than Shaq, Duncan

Not to mention it's based on voting. How many undeserved all-NBA First Team Defensive awards has Kobe won based off recognition. Advanced statistics are factual, and aren't based off opinion.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:31 PM
Individual awards can be VERY deceiving. For example:

Tim Duncan never won DPOY
Nash has more season MVPs than Shaq, Duncan

Not to mention it's based on voting. How many undeserved all-NBA First Team Defensive awards has Kobe won based off recognition. Advanced statistics are factual, and aren't based off opinion.

cmon man. Are you saying Kobe didn't deserve almost every one of his all NBA team appearances? The fact is, he has them. All of those accolades. They mean something in the equation of all time ranking. No way around that.

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 04:32 PM
I get what you're saying. But we are talking about who is the better player correct? So in theory what you are saying is that you could never watch a basketball game in your life, look at a papper with advanced stats, and come up with a decisive conclussion of whos better?
Eye test should only complement the statistics IMO. Eye test and advanced statistics are events that should be taken as both neither independent, and neither mutually exclusive. Eye test should complement the stats, but not vice versa. It's isn't bi conditional.

nastynice
12-19-2013, 04:33 PM
Advanced stats are way more telling than raw stats. Advanced stats are what seperates the Tim Duncans of the world from the Kevin Loves

and they are what equate the Kobes of the world to the Wades. Which is why I know they are as bs as raw stats

Lake_Show2416
12-19-2013, 04:33 PM
solution to Wade's health: sit him for the 1st 50 games of the year :rolleyes:

nastynice
12-19-2013, 04:34 PM
Individual awards can be VERY deceiving. For example:

Tim Duncan never won DPOY
Nash has more season MVPs than Shaq, Duncan

Not to mention it's based on voting. How many undeserved all-NBA First Team Defensive awards has Kobe won based off recognition. Advanced statistics are factual, and aren't based off opinion.

and so are raw stats...

nastynice
12-19-2013, 04:36 PM
I get what you're saying. But we are talking about who is the better player correct? So in theory what you are saying is that you could never watch a basketball game in your life, look at a papper with advanced stats, and come up with a decisive conclussion of whos better?

thank you.

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 04:37 PM
and they are what equate the Kobes of the world to the Wades. Which is why I know they are as bs as raw stats

Wade has a slight edge in advanced stats, but what makes Kobe greater is that he did his in 20000 more minutes, so I'm loking at longevity as well as advanced stats, that's why I have "MP" stats on there. Right now I have Kobe ahead of Wade. As Wade continues to age his advanced stats will continue to dip, but if he maintains high level play for 3+ more years, his "dip" in those stats would be somewhat mitigated, and I would seriously have to reconsider my ranking of Kobe ahead of Wade.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 04:39 PM
Wade has a slight edge in advanced stats, but what makes Kobe greater is that he did his in 20000 more minutes, so I'm loking at longevity as well as advanced stats, that's why I have "MP" stats on there. Right now I have Kobe ahead of Wade. As Wade continues to age his advanced stats will continue to dip, but if he maintains high level play for 3+ more years, his "dip" in those stats would be somewhat mitigated, and I would seriously have to reconsider my ranking of Kobe ahead of Wade.

and if he does that while missing 20 games a year, with a declining usage, making no all NBA teams, how on earth is he passing the ironman Kobe who has been a workhorse, high usage player for a TON more time, just because he has a slightly higher WS/48 or PER?

I am a stats guy, but you must use context. If you guys think Wade will find the fountain of youth, by all means, good. But he is breaking down. No way around it. He needs to be rested, and his last 2 playoff runs have been very, very underwhelming for a so called top 20 player ever in his early 30's.

mightybosstone
12-19-2013, 04:39 PM
This argument has gone on for years, and it's actually a pretty good one. But if you just say "screw everything else," it essentially boils down to Kobe's prime versus Wade's peak.

At this peak, Wade easily has a case for the second greatest SG in NBA history. Wade had six seasons in seven years with a PER of at least 25.6 and a WS/48 of at least .218, which is ridiculous. Kobe only posted a PER that high three times in his career or a WS/48 that high once in his career.

On the flip side, Kobe has had a ridiculous 14 consecutive seasons with a PER over 21.7 and a WS/48 over .132. Also, 12 of those seasons, he boasted a WS/48 over .174. Wade is on pace to accomplish that for his 9th time in 10 seasons, but it's extremely unlikely that he'll do it 5 more times.

Since I don't think either guy was ever the unquestioned No. 1 in the league at any given time, and I don't think either of them deserves any MVPs necessarily, we have to boil it down to their play on the court and the numbers they've produced. I tend to give Kobe a pretty substantial edge, because he's been a freak of nature longevity-wise.

If Wade were to somehow revert to his peak again, win 1-2 more titles and put up that kind of production for a few more years, I do think he could feasibly pass Kobe. That will not happen, however, and I think both players are about as high as they can possibly get in any All-Time discussion. Kobe is stuck in that 8-12 range (11th for me personally) and Wade is somewhere in that 20-25 range. Kobe isn't going to move up any further and Wade could maybe move up into the 15-20 discussion, but that's as high as he's likely to go.

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 04:40 PM
and so are raw stats...

Raw stats for the most part aren't adjusted, like advanced stats. Advanced stats are the new thing now, just like tailored fit suits the NBA players rock now. Get with the program.

canefandynasty
12-19-2013, 04:43 PM
people are really hoping and wishing if they think Wade's body is going to hold up and be a full time elite player for another 400-500 games. His crashing style of game throughout his career was going to always limit his longevity. No way around that. Kobe adapted with age, and hence stayed on the floor a lot longer.

If Miami continues to give Wade the Tim Duncan treatment, Wade won't completely decline nearly as people are making out to be. We've had these "Is Wade declining?" threads since 2007. Give it a rest Kobe fans.

nastynice
12-19-2013, 04:44 PM
Wade has a slight edge in advanced stats, but what makes Kobe greater is that he did his in 20000 more minutes, so I'm loking at longevity as well as advanced stats, that's why I have "MP" stats on there. Right now I have Kobe ahead of Wade. As Wade continues to age his advanced stats will continue to dip, but if he maintains high level play for 3+ more years, his "dip" in those stats would be somewhat mitigated, and I would seriously have to reconsider my ranking of Kobe ahead of Wade.

no, what makes kobe better is his pure dominance around 05-07. The player he was come playoff time. His offensive arsenal. His ability to be a threat no matter where he is on the court. His ability to play in the paint, outside the 3 point line, post game, driving to the hoop (Wade's was better, but still Kobe's was very dangerous), off balance fadeaways, and just repeatedly make difficult shots in difficult situations.

Wade is a great player, and in certain situations I would choose him over Kobe. Kinda like Shaq and D Robinson. Shaq is clearly the better player, but if you have a Tim Duncan on your team, you're better off with Robinson rather than Shaq. But overall, Wade just doesn't bring close to what Kobe brings. I'll trust my eye test over any raw, advanced, super advanced, or whatever type of stats

Just like someone earlier in this thread said Kobe had one of his best statistical years last year. Who the hell cares? Are you really telling me last year he was the same player he was in 06? I don't care what the stats say, you gotta be outta ur mind to think so. Eye test will tell you the reality

mightybosstone
12-19-2013, 04:53 PM
no, what makes kobe better is his pure dominance around 05-07. The player he was come playoff time.
I'm sorry.... I find it EXTREMELY hard to take you seriously when you started out your post with these two sentences. You claim Kobe is the better player because of how dominant he was from 05-07 and how good he was in the playoffs. He won zero titles those three years. Meanwhile, not only were Wade's overall numbers arguably superior in those three years, but he had one of the greatest postseason runs of a single player in NBA history in 2006, culminating in one of the greatest Finals performances and a Finals MVP.

If you want to argue that Kobe is a better all-time player, that's fine. I'd agree with you. But at least get your facts straight and use the right argument. These two sentences are a horrible start to any argument in which Kobe Bryant is the better basketball player.

nastynice
12-19-2013, 04:53 PM
Matter of fact, stats aren't going to tell you kobe's biggest flaw. Hero ball. The guy plays way too much hero ball, thats his biggest knock. Sometimes doesn't let the rest of the guys get in their flow, tries to hard to push the tempo rather than letting the tempo coming to them.

nastynice
12-19-2013, 04:55 PM
I'm sorry.... I find it EXTREMELY hard to take you seriously when you started out your post with these two sentences. You claim Kobe is the better player because of how dominant he was from 05-07 and how good he was in the playoffs. He won zero titles those three years. Meanwhile, not only were Wade's overall numbers arguably superior in those three years, but he had one of the greatest postseason runs of a single player in NBA history in 2006, culminating in one of the greatest Finals performances and a Finals MVP.

If you want to argue that Kobe is a better all-time player, that's fine. I'd agree with you. But at least get your facts straight and use the right argument. These two sentences are a horrible start to any argument in which Kobe Bryant is the better basketball player.

ummm, i'm not talking about his playoff performance just in those years, i'm talking about his playoff performance period

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 05:03 PM
If Miami continues to give Wade the Tim Duncan treatment, Wade won't completely decline nearly as people are making out to be. We've had these "Is Wade declining?" threads since 2007. Give it a rest Kobe fans.

if he gets that treatment, why should he be rewarded for it, when Bryant has never gotten that treatment, instead being ironman for 1450 games?

mightybosstone
12-19-2013, 05:08 PM
ummm, i'm not talking about his playoff performance just in those years, i'm talking about his playoff performance period

But you're still claiming he was the better player from 2005-07, and that's just simply not true. You could maybe make a case for 05 when Wade hadn't quite hit his stride yet, but Wade's first peak season was in 06. He was insanely dominant that year, capping it off with a far superior postseason performance than Kobe ever had in his career.

Over their entire careers, I'd take Kobe. But if you ask me to take either guy for any one season from 06-11 (minus 08, when he was hurt), I'd take Wade over Kobe in a heartbeat. He was simply the better basketball player over that stretch.

nickdymez
12-19-2013, 05:08 PM
If you pulled up both players page, you would see this ridiculously long resume of all NBA teams, all defensive teams, all star games, MVP, 5 rings, blah, blah, blah for Kobe. And half that on Wade's. You would also see games missed for Wade. The resume would still easily point to your guy, trust me. The bulk of the people in here who are claiming there is a chance are banking on Wade being very productive (I mean all NBA level and rings) for another 400 games. Do you see that happening? I sure as hell don't.

Yea thats what im saying. Me and you dont even have to discuss how we both feel about advance stats. lol. Im trying to understand how people are basing opinions. I used to think Wade was easily top 3 in league, easily. And I also used to think he would be better than Kobe. Seriously. But all the injuries made me feel otherwise. But i meerely went off eye test. I feel you though.

nickdymez
12-19-2013, 05:12 PM
Eye test should only complement the statistics IMO. Eye test and advanced statistics are events that should be taken as both neither independent, and neither mutually exclusive. Eye test should complement the stats, but not vice versa. It's isn't bi conditional.

Thats YOUR opinion. Like i tell people on this site all the time. Scouts, GM's, coaches, etc, were gauging talent on raw stats and eye tests for years and the league did just fine. Advanced stats are a cool way to look at the game differently, but in no way should it weigh any heavier on than anything else unless YOU choose to do that.

Sota4Ever
12-19-2013, 05:16 PM
If Miami continues to give Wade the Tim Duncan treatment, Wade won't completely decline nearly as people are making out to be. We've had these "Is Wade declining?" threads since 2007. Give it a rest Kobe fans.

This is great, calling Hawk a Kobe fan.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 05:21 PM
Thats YOUR opinion. Like i tell people on this site all the time. Scouts, GM's, coaches, etc, were gauging talent on raw stats and eye tests for years and the league did just fine. Advanced stats are a cool way to look at the game differently, but in no way should it weigh any heavier on than anything else unless YOU choose to do that.

the league did work just fine without advanced stats. But its become a new tool that is not used, you will fall behind.

Doesn't change the fact that I still think this is a useless argument, I don't think Wade has any chance of passing Kobe, despite his slightly better stats, which I think will go down some the next few years.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 05:22 PM
This is great, calling Hawk a Kobe fan.

I hate Kobe, everyone knows that. But I also understand his place in history, as well as Wade's.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 05:24 PM
Yea thats what im saying. Me and you dont even have to discuss how we both feel about advance stats. lol. Im trying to understand how people are basing opinions. I used to think Wade was easily top 3 in league, easily. And I also used to think he would be better than Kobe. Seriously. But all the injuries made me feel otherwise. But i meerely went off eye test. I feel you though.

I figured with Wade's style he would start to slow down in his early 30's. You can't just drive and crash into things for 8 years and not have some lingering impact.

SportsFanatic10
12-19-2013, 07:47 PM
and they are what equate the Kobes of the world to the Wades. Which is why I know they are as bs as raw stats

lol you really think kobe is some untouchable god. wade was actually better than kobe in his prime, kobe was just fortunate enough to stay healthier and not play his whole career without a meniscus. that's all that separates their careers honestly.

SportsFanatic10
12-19-2013, 07:54 PM
I figured with Wade's style he would start to slow down in his early 30's. You can't just drive and crash into things for 8 years and not have some lingering impact.

ya and even more so when your doing it without your meniscus on your explosion leg your whole career. wade will never be what he was, we all know that now. he still shows just how great he was and would still be though when he gets to rest the knee a bit, but the wear and tear has finally become too much for him now and it's a real shame. at the end of the day he'll go down as the 3rd best shooting guard and top 20 ever imo. a player with an amazing peak that rivaled almost anyone, but injuries robbed him of an even more incredible career.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2013, 08:17 PM
ya and even more so when your doing it without your meniscus on your explosion leg your whole career. wade will never be what he was, we all know that now. he still shows just how great he was and would still be though when he gets to rest the knee a bit, but the wear and tear has finally become too much for him now and it's a real shame. at the end of the day he'll go down as the 3rd best shooting guard and top 20 ever imo. a player with an amazing peak that rivaled almost anyone, but injuries robbed him of an even more incredible career.

agree 100%

P&GRealist
12-19-2013, 08:31 PM
lol you really think kobe is some untouchable god. wade was actually better than kobe in his prime, kobe was just fortunate enough to stay healthier and not play his whole career without a meniscus. that's all that separates their careers honestly.

Kobe had bone on bone on his knees, multiple arthroscopic knee surgeries etc. But of course, your fan base and Wade fanboys probably really glad now with the achilles tear and now news of the fractured tibia.

Kobe can retire today and Wade can win the next 3 chips ridding LeBron's coattails and surpass Kobe's ring count and Kobe will still go down as the 2nd greatest 2 guard ever.

Sorry, Wade will go down in this game as a Top 15 all time player at best and a Miami legend, but Kobe will go down as a top 10 all time player and a worldwide icon.

IKnowHoops
12-20-2013, 12:00 AM
here's my thing with stats, and people trying to make arguments for wade using stats

Kevin Love
ppg-18.2, rpg -12.3, apg - 2.1, ft% - .814

Tim Duncan
ppg - 20.0, rpg - 11.2, apg - 3.1, ft% - .694

Looks like they're pretty comparable. But anyone that WATCHES basketball knows Tim Duncan (in his prime) brought way more to the table than Love. Same way, anyone that WATCHED kobe and wade know kobe just brings way more, they're really not even in the same category

Only problem is those aren't Tim Duncan's prime stats. Show the right stats with the (in his prime) phrase your using.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2013, 12:19 AM
Only problem is those aren't Tim Duncan's prime stats. Show the right stats with the (in his prime) phrase your using.

we have just entered prime Love's stats. Not saying he has much of a chance of catching Duncan, he was drafted into crap, Duncan awesomeness. Just saying the numbers will change with Love.

lol, please
12-20-2013, 01:23 AM
He already is, just ask wade>kobe.

lakersfan01
12-20-2013, 01:44 AM
Of course it's possible.

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-20-2013, 03:31 AM
Lol no way in hell wade surpasses Kobe that would mean wade is borderline top 5 all time

beliges
12-20-2013, 02:01 PM
and they are what equate the Kobes of the world to the Wades. Which is why I know they are as bs as raw stats

lol you really think kobe is some untouchable god. wade was actually better than kobe in his prime, kobe was just fortunate enough to stay healthier and not play his whole career without a meniscus. that's all that separates their careers honestly.

im not sure you remember kobes prime very well. Kobe in his prime was dropping 40 at will while playing shut down D. Wades prime elevated him to one of the best players in the game at his era but let's not say wades prime was better when in his prime kobe was probably the greatest scorer to ever do it.

mngopher35
12-20-2013, 02:44 PM
im not sure you remember kobes prime very well. Kobe in his prime was dropping 40 at will while playing shut down D. Wades prime elevated him to one of the best players in the game at his era but let's not say wades prime was better when in his prime kobe was probably the greatest scorer to ever do it.

Kobe is not the best scorer to ever do it if we are looking at overall production (volume and efficiency). He has amazing fundamentals, an incredible ability to make tough shots, and great overall repetoure but to me that isn't enough alone to be the best scorer (I really don't see how you rank him over Jordan in any way here for starters). You have to be able to score a lot at a high efficiency. People will argue about which matters more and to what extent but please explain how he is a better scorer than Jordan.

Prime wade was a better passer/playmaker, a little more efficient as a scorer, and better help defender. Kobe to me was the better "pure scorer" but his decision making lead to it being closer than it should be in this category (him having the advantage still). He was also a better man to man defender imo.

Offensively in their prime I would prefer to have a player like wade quite honestly. This would keep the ball movement high while keeping teammates involved (and setting them up better), and the drop off in scoring isn't a huge deal when he is doing it more efficently (and setting up players for better shots as well). This would obviously change based on team needs etc, but if we can have either in their prime for one year I take Wade.

Kobe was great player with a very long prime but it wasn't like his prime/peak play is his biggest asset in all-time rankings. It is for Wade though and just because some people have him higher here doesn't mean they don't remember Kobe's prime, they just also remember Wade's. All-time Kobe will definitely stay ahead of Kobe (without a major surprise) but in their prime I don't think it is ridiculous to choose either over the other.

P&GRealist
12-20-2013, 02:46 PM
For the Heat fans and Wade fan boys saying that in 3 yrs Wade will catapult himself past Kobe, please realize if that is the case, then Wade will retire as a "top 10 player" ever, and if he is as instrumental to the Heat's success and winning titles for them the next 3 yrs, please also understand that that will affect LeBron's all-time ranking in relation to the help he is getting, and he won't be and should not be discussed in the same breath as Michael for GOAT.

It's either you pick 1 or the other, you can't have both.

b@llhog24
12-20-2013, 03:26 PM
Gotta say, a ton of people don't grasp the premise of the thread.

b@llhog24
12-20-2013, 03:29 PM
No way wade is a top 20 player of all time....

he misses games and comes back for the important ones, and when he goes ham in those games, suddenly he is amazing again. Well its easy to be amazing when you play like every other game.

Its not his fault he can't be healthy to play often, but that has to be used against him when talking about greatness. His peak is also quiet short.

I'd LOVE to see what your top 20 looks like.

beliges
12-20-2013, 05:07 PM
Kobe is not the best scorer to ever do it if we are looking at overall production (volume and efficiency). He has amazing fundamentals, an incredible ability to make tough shots, and great overall repetoure but to me that isn't enough alone to be the best scorer (I really don't see how you rank him over Jordan in any way here for starters). You have to be able to score a lot at a high efficiency. People will argue about which matters more and to what extent but please explain how he is a better scorer than Jordan.

Prime wade was a better passer/playmaker, a little more efficient as a scorer, and better help defender. Kobe to me was the better "pure scorer" but his decision making lead to it being closer than it should be in this category (him having the advantage still). He was also a better man to man defender imo.

Offensively in their prime I would prefer to have a player like wade quite honestly. This would keep the ball movement high while keeping teammates involved (and setting them up better), and the drop off in scoring isn't a huge deal when he is doing it more efficently (and setting up players for better shots as well). This would obviously change based on team needs etc, but if we can have either in their prime for one year I take Wade.

Kobe was great player with a very long prime but it wasn't like his prime/peak play is his biggest asset in all-time rankings. It is for Wade though and just because some people have him higher here doesn't mean they don't remember Kobe's prime, they just also remember Wade's. All-time Kobe will definitely stay ahead of Kobe (without a major surprise) but in their prime I don't think it is ridiculous to choose either over the other.

In his prime, there was never a better SCORER than Kobe. We have never seen another player with as wide of an offensive arsenal with the ability to drop 40 or 50 points at will on a team. During his prime, that was Kobe. Wade simply cant matchup to that.

Supreme LA
12-20-2013, 05:22 PM
Why do Mods allow this thread to be brought up every week? We've debated this over 100 times. After so much time in the league both guys are already established. Without the fountain of youth, neither guy can alter there place in history at this point.

nastynice
12-20-2013, 06:15 PM
lol you really think kobe is some untouchable god. wade was actually better than kobe in his prime, kobe was just fortunate enough to stay healthier and not play his whole career without a meniscus. that's all that separates their careers honestly.

lol, not at all. He's just clearly a better player than wade. Not in EVERY way, wade is better at penetrating (his first step is just RIDICULOUS), doesn't play as much hero ball, and is probably easier to develop players with. But at the end of the day kobe will be a basketball legend, wade won't be, kobe's his offensive game is SO complete, and outside of his hero ball binges I'd say borderline flawless. Technique-wise as good as any SG to have ever played the game.

Jordan's def a better scorer tho, lol, not sure who the hell threw that in there, but MJ was just as complete but more clutch and efficient (or at least it seemed. god help me if I don't have advanced stats to back up my statements)

beasted86
12-20-2013, 06:23 PM
In his prime, there was never a better SCORER than Kobe. We have never seen another player with as wide of an offensive arsenal with the ability to drop 40 or 50 points at will on a team. During his prime, that was Kobe. Wade simply cant matchup to that.

And yet thru their career Wade has averaged almost the same on better efficiency?

Sit and think about that reality and then reevaluate whether your definition of "better scorer" is really fair or accurate. For some reason among PSD NBA fans volatility is valued more than consistency... as well as versatility more than efficiency. Its why people have always tried to claim "X" player in the NBA was a better scorer than LeBron despite being less consistent or efficient. The same applies to Wade but just to a lesser degree.

beliges
12-20-2013, 07:18 PM
And yet thru their career Wade has averaged almost the same on better efficiency?

Sit and think about that reality and then reevaluate whether your definition of "better scorer" is really fair or accurate. For some reason among PSD NBA fans volatility is valued more than consistency... as well as versatility more than efficiency. Its why people have always tried to claim "X" player in the NBA was a better scorer than LeBron despite being less consistent or efficient. The same applies to Wade but just to a lesser degree.

Average numbers don't exactly tell you anything on this topic. Compare both players' numbers during their primes. It is not new news that Kobe's stats are skewed given he came into the league at the age of 17. LOL.

jerellh528
12-20-2013, 07:27 PM
Average numbers don't exactly tell you anything on this topic. Compare both players' numbers during their primes. It is not new news that Kobe's stats are skewed given he came into the league at the age of 17. LOL.

Or the fact that Kobe played in a much harder conference with much better teams and defenders his entire career.

mngopher35
12-20-2013, 07:49 PM
In his prime, there was never a better SCORER than Kobe. We have never seen another player with as wide of an offensive arsenal with the ability to drop 40 or 50 points at will on a team. During his prime, that was Kobe. Wade simply cant matchup to that.

I didn't say wade was a better scorer, I asked about Jordan. Kobe was not the best scorer this game has ever seen is what I said, not that wade was better.

I actually agree that kobe is the better scorer, but I explained why that gap isn't extremely large (efficiency matters and wade was very good himself). Outside Also scoring is not the only part to a basketball game and I explained in my post why I still believe Wade was better.

mngopher35
12-20-2013, 07:58 PM
lol, not at all. He's just clearly a better player than wade. Not in EVERY way, wade is better at penetrating (his first step is just RIDICULOUS), doesn't play as much hero ball, and is probably easier to develop players with. But at the end of the day kobe will be a basketball legend, wade won't be, kobe's his offensive game is SO complete, and outside of his hero ball binges I'd say borderline flawless. Technique-wise as good as any SG to have ever played the game.

Jordan's def a better scorer tho, lol, not sure who the hell threw that in there, but MJ was just as complete but more clutch and efficient (or at least it seemed. god help me if I don't have advanced stats to back up my statements)

I am arguing for Wade in his prime being slightly better but agree with part of this post, the bold included.

I think you should change offensive game to scoring game being SO complete, and maybe not say borderline flawless (you did say outside of hero ball though so I get the point).

To me it is the playmaking ability of wade and decision making/lack of hero ball that separates the two. Looking at the two in their prime it is very close imo and I would prefer to have a player like Wade. The only thing people are mentioning to say why everyone is wrong is the difference in scoring which I think is being overrated by some. Yes Kobe can score in bunches, but he does it to a fault at times and it can hurt the flow of a team. This makes the gap between their scoring close and Wade comes out on top outside of scoring imo.

As to your point on all time ranks that really doesn't have much to do with this conversation. Longevity is easily the biggest difference between these two players and their all time rank. It really doesn't have to do with any separation of their prime play.

beasted86
12-21-2013, 01:48 AM
Even with giving Kobe a running start by dropping his first 2 seasons when he wasn't a starter and the 6 games from this year, he maxes out at 27.4 PPG. You drop Wade's rookie season where he wasn't a starter the whole way through and playing out of position and it puts him at 25.4 PPG over his career. So basically you are telling me the 2 PPG more per game is what qualifies him as this vastly better scorer despite the difference in efficiency?

Your arguments just don't make sense and has holes in it. Not hating or baiting.... but how I see it is whatever difference in scoring is negligible between these two. These guys' scoring and usage over their career is pretty much a dead heat. While Kobe has may be a point or 2 over him in career average, Wade is more efficient scoring, but turns the ball over a little more. That's about it. Anyone trying to extrapolate something different from these stats that are pretty straight forward is probably doing it in bias rather than actual analysis.

Supreme LA
12-21-2013, 04:05 AM
Even with giving Kobe a running start by dropping his first 2 seasons when he wasn't a starter and the 6 games from this year, he maxes out at 27.4 PPG. You drop Wade's rookie season where he wasn't a starter the whole way through and playing out of position and it puts him at 25.4 PPG over his career. So basically you are telling me the 2 PPG more per game is what qualifies him as this vastly better scorer despite the difference in efficiency?

Your arguments just don't make sense and has holes in it. Not hating or baiting.... but how I see it is whatever difference in scoring is negligible between these two. These guys' scoring and usage over their career is pretty much a dead heat. While Kobe has may be a point or 2 over him in career average, Wade is more efficient scoring, but turns the ball over a little more. That's about it. Anyone trying to extrapolate something different from these stats that are pretty straight forward is probably doing it in bias rather than actual analysis.

Okay, so your point is that Wade is better than Kobe.

Great. Now can we move on? It's so obvious neither side ever convinces the other and this has been debated for who knows how long now.

The point is, Heat fans think Wade is the 2nd greatest SG of all time & Lebron is the GOAT and they'll do everything they can to shove it down our throats every week. Wonderful. You're entitled to your own opinion.

I really don't even hate the Heat. I just want them to lose so all of these obnoxious Heat fans can stfu and fade away from this forum.

beasted86
12-21-2013, 06:34 AM
Okay, so your point is that Wade is better than Kobe.

Great. Now can we move on? It's so obvious neither side ever convinces the other and this has been debated for who knows how long now.

The point is, Heat fans think Wade is the 2nd greatest SG of all time & Lebron is the GOAT and they'll do everything they can to shove it down our throats every week. Wonderful. You're entitled to your own opinion.

I really don't even hate the Heat. I just want them to lose so all of these obnoxious Heat fans can stfu and fade away from this forum.

Actually I don't. But statistically comparing the two players careers... Wade has been a little better overall.

But since this seems to be some topic that clearly you hold dearly and personal to yourself which gets your panties in a bunch, I will make sure I don't talk about this no more. Hush, hush, it's okay.

b@llhog24
12-21-2013, 04:39 PM
Yea as one of the more stat conscious posters on PSD doubt I'd say that Wade was a better scorer than Kobe. Better offensive player? Sure. Scorer? Meh.

jerellh528
12-21-2013, 04:46 PM
Brook Lopez is a better scorer than wade. Why? Becuz statz