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Dade County
12-13-2013, 08:36 PM
I know Wade is going to go down as the 2nd best SG ever, it's just going to take a little more time.


http://theleaguenews.us/dwyane-wade-is-better-than-kobe-bryant/


Dwyane Wade will probably never average 35 points or score 81 points in a single game. However, basketball is not all about scoring, so it’s wrong to think that Bryant is better than Wade just because of his scoring ability. Besides, we don’t know for sure if Bryant is a better scorer, since Dwyane Wade doesn’t take as many shots as Kobe does. As a matter of fact, Kobe Bryant has averaged 2 more field goal attempts than Wade during his career, yet his scoring average is just a bit better than Wade’s.

I know that stats cannot show the whole story and players’ skills, but they show the majority of it. The fact is that Wade’s stats are better than Bryant’s even if Wade has gone through many injuries in his career, while Bryant stayed healthy for the most of his time in the league.

beasted86
12-13-2013, 08:45 PM
Although its true his stats are better............. :horse:

Dade County
12-13-2013, 09:45 PM
Although its true his stats are better............. :horse:

it would be cool if that horse was replaced with kobe, and Wade or Shaq was holding that bat:cheer:

WaDe03
12-14-2013, 03:31 AM
I agree he is better. Imagine if he never got injured or didn't get his meniscus removed. GOAT!

P&GRealist
12-14-2013, 02:12 PM
Universally, Kobe Bryant, skills wise and fundamental wise will forever be known as the greater shooting guard, and it's not even close. It's an insult to the man that you're putting D-whistle in the same breath as the Black Mamba. It's an insult to the intelligence of all the past legends, icons and HOFs of this sport who have claimed KB as the 2nd greatest SG in league history, and the only real one worthy of being compared to His Airness.

WaDe03
12-14-2013, 02:29 PM
Universally, Kobe Bryant, skills wise and fundamental wise will forever be known as the greater shooting guard, and it's not even close. It's an insult to the man that you're putting D-whistle in the same breath as the Black Mamba. It's an insult to the intelligence of all the past legends, icons and HOFs of this sport who have claimed KB as the 2nd greatest SG in league history, and the only real one worthy of being compared to His Airness.

You saw the stats Wade is better that's all there is to it. Wade doesn't get near as much credit as he should as a player and that's just crazy I mean you see his stats are better but I doubt you would even have him in your top 3 shooting guards which is crazy. You have your opinion I have mine if you want a player you want Kobe if I want one I have Wade it is what it is. And your comment about them not in the same breath is ignorant as hell these two and MJ are obviously the best 3 at their position ever so obviously they can be used in the same breath. Kobe's legacy is done Wade is still building on to his so we can debate when their careers are over.

naps
12-14-2013, 02:45 PM
Pretty sure this guy is long parmabanned KB-Pau-D12. I clearly remember that troll's writing styles. This is almost impossibly similar, just like a carbon-copy.

P&GRealist
12-14-2013, 03:01 PM
You saw the stats Wade is better that's all there is to it. Wade doesn't get near as much credit as he should as a player and that's just crazy I mean you see his stats are better but I doubt you would even have him in your top 3 shooting guards which is crazy. You have your opinion I have mine if you want a player you want Kobe if I want one I have Wade it is what it is. And your comment about them not in the same breath is ignorant as hell these two and MJ are obviously the best 3 at their position ever so obviously they can be used in the same breath. Kobe's legacy is done Wade is still building on to his so we can debate when their careers are over.

So stats are what qualify as one player being better than the other?

Than Jerry West was the better shooting guard over Wade then as West averaged 27 points per game, 5.8 rebounds per game and 6.7 assists per game along with 2.6 steals per game. Those are numbers all above Wade. And West had the better FT% while Wade has more blockers per game and a higher field goal percentage.

Jerry West is better than Dwyane Wade then.

Delrayhc
12-14-2013, 03:11 PM
You saw the stats Wade is better that's all there is to it. Wade doesn't get near as much credit as he should as a player and that's just crazy I mean you see his stats are better but I doubt you would even have him in your top 3 shooting guards which is crazy. You have your opinion I have mine if you want a player you want Kobe if I want one I have Wade it is what it is. And your comment about them not in the same breath is ignorant as hell these two and MJ are obviously the best 3 at their position ever so obviously they can be used in the same breath. Kobe's legacy is done Wade is still building on to his so we can debate when their careers are over.

So stats are what qualify as one player being better than the other?

Than Jerry West was the better shooting guard over Wade then as West averaged 27 points per game, 5.8 rebounds per game and 6.7 assists per game along with 2.6 steals per game. Those are numbers all above Wade. And West had the better FT% while Wade has more blockers per game and a higher field goal percentage.

Jerry West is better than Dwyane Wade then.


Im not saying that Wade is better than Kobe because i really don't give a s..t but what do you care what people are saying in the HEAT forum ..... Why don't you spew your obvious obsession of another man in the NBA or Laker forum.

Pablonovi
12-14-2013, 03:36 PM
So stats are what qualify as one player being better than the other?

Than Jerry West was the better shooting guard over Wade then as West averaged 27 points per game, 5.8 rebounds per game and 6.7 assists per game along with 2.6 steals per game. Those are numbers all above Wade. And West had the better FT% while Wade has more blockers per game and a higher field goal percentage.

Jerry West is better than Dwyane Wade then.

Hey P&GRealist,
Myself, here's my All-Time Top SGs:
1. MJ
gap
2. Kobe
gap
3-4: West / O
gap
5: DWade
with all being in the GOAT All-Time Top 25.

Ergo, West WAS better than DWade.

N.B. Being in the All-Time Top 25 is no slight; instead it is a tremendous accomplishment and accolade.

Dré
12-14-2013, 03:40 PM
...Than Jerry West was the better shooting guard over Wade then as West averaged 27 points per game, 5.8 rebounds per game and 6.7 assists per game along with 2.6 steals per game. Those are numbers all above Wade. And West had the better FT% while Wade has more blockers per game and a higher field goal percentage.

Jerry West is better than Dwyane Wade then.

One important thing you're ignoring, is that a number of stats are missing (for West). Which makes it somewhat hard to quantify just how productive he was as a player. You're also not min-adjusting per 48. West played damn near 40 mins per game, compared to Wade. Yes he's a slightly better assist generator, and rebounder, but the difference is relatively minimal. As to what concerns forced turns and blocks, West played in one lone season that saw them record those stats (his final year in the league), I'd hardly say that qualifies as proof that West was better at forcing turns than Wade. Wade is probably better at doing everything West did, with the exception of assisting (barely), shooting free-throws, and rebounding (barely).

Wade is the greatest SG since his airness himself (the numbers back him up). The verdict is still out on guys like Curry and Harden, since they're relatively young. And Ginobili def gets an honorable nod.

Dré
12-14-2013, 03:55 PM
^He's perhaps not an iron man like Kobe has been a good portion of his career. And part of that may have to do w/ the meniscus tear/injury he suffered @ Marquette (and played through). But when he's on the floor, there's no denying he's generally more effective at doing a number of things, safe for 3-point shooting and free-throw shooting. Kobe's also marginally better at holding onto the basketball (barely).

Pablonovi
12-14-2013, 07:00 PM
Pretty sure this guy is long parmabanned KB-Pau-D12. I clearly remember that troll's writing styles. This is almost impossibly similar, just like a carbon-copy.

Hey naps,
Perhaps it's just me; but I don't understand to whom you are referring that you think if a dupe of KB-Pau-D12.

Pablonovi
12-14-2013, 07:06 PM
One important thing you're ignoring, is that a number of stats are missing (for West). Which makes it somewhat hard to quantify just how productive he was as a player. You're also not min-adjusting per 48. West played damn near 40 mins per game, compared to Wade. Yes he's a slightly better assist generator, and rebounder, but the difference is relatively minimal. As to what concerns forced turns and blocks, West played in one lone season that saw them record those stats (his final year in the league), I'd hardly say that qualifies as proof that West was better at forcing turns than Wade. Wade is probably better at doing everything West did, with the exception of assisting (barely), shooting free-throws, and rebounding (barely).

Wade is the greatest SG since his airness himself (the numbers back him up). The verdict is still out on guys like Curry and Harden, since they're relatively young. And Ginobili def gets an honorable nod.

Hey Dre',
You say, "Wade is probably better at doing everything West did, with the exception of assisting (barely), shooting free-throws, and rebounding (barely). "

Haven't you left out at least one very important thing: outside shooting? West was one of the all-time greatest long-range shooters; the same area that is universally known to be Wade's weakest area. No small issue; and a huge difference.

DWade being ranked within the Top 25 is pretty universal amongst NBA experts and (non-Heat) writers. For all of them, DWade is around 5th; behind: MJ, Kobe, West & O (in close to that order; with West & O virtually interchangeable). Additionally, none of them I'm aware of suggests that DWade can do enough during his remaining career to pass any of them.

Ginobili definitely gets an honorable not??? No one I've ever heard of has him close to the All-Time Top 50; nor in the All-Time Top 10 SGs. Yikes.

Dré
12-14-2013, 09:17 PM
Haven't you left out at least one very important thing: outside shooting? West was one of the all-time greatest long-range shooters; the same area that is universally known to be Wade's weakest area. No small issue; and a huge difference.

How can you quantify how good West was at long-range shooting, when they've only been keeping track of shot spots for the last decade or so? Not to mention that the 3-point line wasn't introduced to the NBA until 1979-80 (to give you an idea, that's the year Bird and Magic came into the league). West retired roughly 6 seasons prior.

Nobody's saying West couldn't have been a better outside shooter. But that unfortunately wasn't tracked (unlike with Wade). So there's no proof to your assertion. At this stage it's possible he was, as much as it's possible he wasn't.


DWade being ranked within the Top 25 is pretty universal amongst NBA experts and (non-Heat) writers. For all of them, DWade is around 5th; behind: MJ, Kobe, West & O (in close to that order; with West & O virtually interchangeable). Additionally, none of them I'm aware of suggests that DWade can do enough during his remaining career to pass any of them.

What experts are you talking about (e.g., morons like Stephen A. Smith and Skip Bayless maybe, etc)? Most statisticians agree on Wade being the best SG since Jordan, with the noted exception of perhaps John Hollinger (in case you didn't know, I'm not much for PER). I'm more partial to win shares/48, wins produced/48, etc.


Ginobili definitely gets an honorable not??? No one I've ever heard of has him close to the All-Time Top 50; nor in the All-Time Top 10 SGs. Yikes.

Ginobili has always been underrated, a large part of that has to do with his reserve role status and the increment minutes he's played over his career (compared to other stars/superstars). Look at his numbers though (adjusted per48), he's every bit the per-minute rebounder Kobe is, a better per-min passer, better at staying out of foul trouble, better at forcing turnovers, about equal in blocks, is better at keeping the ball, and perhaps more importantly, is much more efficient (look at his career eFG percentage and TS percentage).

And no, his numbers wouldn't have been affected had he played more minutes. There's actually ample evidence suggesting that when a productive player plays limited mins, he's still productive playing higher mins. Take a look at Kevin Love, Love is still pretty much the same guy from his rookie season (when you look at his per-min numbers). He's just playing more mins and APPEARS to be doing more. The only negative thing that an increase in mins could affect, is the increased risk of sustaining an injury. And considering Ginobili's injury-proneness, it's possible the increased playing time, could have shortened his career.

That said, when Ginobili's been on the floor, there's no denying he's been every bit as productive as D-Wade (if not better in some respects). And safe for the recent infusion of talent at the 2 (e.g., Stephen Curry, James Harden, etc) it hasn't really been any one else other than Kobe (and by the numbers, he's always been a step down from either). As good as Grant Hill, T-Mac, and Brandon Roy were, their careers were unfortunately derailed (quite early on) by injuries, and their production value dipped/was affected as a result. Like I said, along with Wade, Ginobili def deserves to be in the convo for best SG since Jordan.

There have always been great wings fyi (no one's denying that): E.g., Larry Bird, Adrian Dantley, Clyde Drexler, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, John Stockton, etc. But only Drexler and Jordan (among those I mentioned) were SGs.

Pablonovi
12-14-2013, 11:55 PM
How can you quantify how good West was at long-range shooting, when they've only been keeping track of shot spots for the last decade or so? Not to mention that the 3-point line wasn't introduced to the NBA until 1979-80 (to give you an idea, that's the year Bird and Magic came into the league). West retired roughly 6 seasons prior.

Nobody's saying West couldn't have been a better outside shooter. But that unfortunately wasn't tracked (unlike with Wade). So there's no proof to your assertion. At this stage it's possible he was, as much as it's possible he wasn't.

[SNIP]



Hey Dre,
I watched West's entire career (all that was televised; and read about the rest). He was NOT a drive-to-the-rim guy by any means; nor a dunker. He WAS a shooter; WAY better than DWade. I'd say that there is universal agreement over this; besides, it is generally acknowledged that DWade's weakest aspect is his outside shot. No?

Dré
12-15-2013, 12:51 AM
Hey Dre,
I watched West's entire career (all that was televised; and read about the rest). He was NOT a drive-to-the-rim guy by any means; nor a dunker. He WAS a shooter; WAY better than DWade. I'd say that there is universal agreement over this; besides, it is generally acknowledged that DWade's weakest aspect is his outside shot. No?

Ofc Wade's not a good long-range shooter (I never said otherwise). I'd even argue that Wade's not a particularly good mid-range shooter either (shots outside the paint/10+ feet). And unlike LeBron, he hasn't really gotten better at making them. That said, what I'm arguing is that West's shooting numbers haven't really been tracked as accurately as Wade's. Making it harder to determine if what you say is true. Unless someone can breakdown West's shooting numbers at the rim, between 3-and-9 feet, 10-and-22 feet, 23+ feet. You just can't say that West was the better shooter (even if he truly was).

E.g., between Ginobili and Wade, it's a no contest. We can clearly make the argument that Ginobili's been the more efficient shooter overall, evidenced by his shooting numbers beyond the arc, from the top of the key, free-throw line, etc. Ginobili can pretty much shoot it from anywhere at a fairly high clip. Whereas Wade's range is not as wide. We can make that argument because, this is depicted in their respective stats. You can't make that same argument about Wade and West. Because West's stats weren't as comprehensively tracked. That's my point.

FreakaNashur
12-15-2013, 05:21 AM
Universally, Kobe Bryant, skills wise and fundamental wise will forever be known as the greater shooting guard, and it's not even close. It's an insult to the man that you're putting D-whistle in the same breath as the Black Mamba. It's an insult to the intelligence of all the past legends, icons and HOFs of this sport who have claimed KB as the 2nd greatest SG in league history, and the only real one worthy of being compared to His Airness.
I Died @ universally

LMAO.

tredigs
12-15-2013, 05:42 AM
Ofc Wade's not a good long-range shooter (I never said otherwise). I'd even argue that Wade's not a particularly good mid-range shooter either (shots outside the paint/10+ feet). And unlike LeBron, he hasn't really gotten better at making them. That said, what I'm arguing is that West's shooting numbers haven't really been tracked as accurately as Wade's. Making it harder to determine if what you say is true. Unless someone can breakdown West's shooting numbers at the rim, between 3-and-9 feet, 10-and-22 feet, 23+ feet. You just can't say that West was the better shooter (even if he truly was).

E.g., between Ginobili and Wade, it's a no contest. We can clearly make the argument that Ginobili's been the more efficient shooter overall, evidenced by his shooting numbers beyond the arc, from the top of the key, free-throw line, etc. Ginobili can pretty much shoot it from anywhere at a fairly high clip. Whereas Wade's range is not as wide. We can make that argument because, this is depicted in their respective stats. You can't make that same argument about Wade and West. Because West's stats weren't as comprehensively tracked. That's my point.

You post as if all the footage and documentation of his career was lost in a hurricane. We can watch the tapes... see the form... look at that lightening quick release with perfect form that was famously renowned throughout the league as the best there was. Let's not pretend that it is impossible to determine who is an elite shooter simply because hoopdata wasn't around at the time to force feed it to you. I'd venture to guess that you would not find a single NBA Scout or Historian that wouldn't laugh out loud at the notion that you "just can't know" who is a better shooter between Wade and Jerry West due to a lack of certain metrics. He actually gets hosed on metrics in relation to post 1981 players on account of having a lower ppg total and TS% due to no 3pt line.

Pablonovi
12-15-2013, 03:13 PM
Ofc Wade's not a good long-range shooter (I never said otherwise). I'd even argue that Wade's not a particularly good mid-range shooter either (shots outside the paint/10+ feet). And unlike LeBron, he hasn't really gotten better at making them. That said, what I'm arguing is that West's shooting numbers haven't really been tracked as accurately as Wade's. Making it harder to determine if what you say is true. Unless someone can breakdown West's shooting numbers at the rim, between 3-and-9 feet, 10-and-22 feet, 23+ feet. You just can't say that West was the better shooter (even if he truly was).

E.g., between Ginobili and Wade, it's a no contest. We can clearly make the argument that Ginobili's been the more efficient shooter overall, evidenced by his shooting numbers beyond the arc, from the top of the key, free-throw line, etc. Ginobili can pretty much shoot it from anywhere at a fairly high clip. Whereas Wade's range is not as wide. We can make that argument because, this is depicted in their respective stats. You can't make that same argument about Wade and West. Because West's stats weren't as comprehensively tracked. That's my point.

Hey Dre,
Regardless of the lack of tracking, if one reviews game tapes, talks to old-times or reads about it, Jerry West was much, much more of an outside shooter as opposed to a drive-to-the-hoop guy. Everybody knows this about West. OTOH, a large part of what makes DWade great is the dominance within his game of his drives. You yourself now recognize that DWade is NOT particularly god from 10+ feet. West was (one of) the best of his era.

Again, one doesn't need comprehensive tracking to know this about both of them. It is utterly obvious.

I am NOT claiming that West being a much better outside shot is, or should be, THE determining factor in judging who was the better all-time great. Far from it. I've just "insisted" in trying to make this one point; because it was a big point that you had completely left out of your initial analysis/comparison.

WaDe03
12-15-2013, 09:00 PM
Wade's better than Jerry West I would probably have Jerry at the 4th best SG all-time though

naps
12-15-2013, 09:09 PM
Hey naps,
Perhaps it's just me; but I don't understand to whom you are referring that you think if a dupe of KB-Pau-D12.

The guy who got banned. Not you Pablo. You are a fine poster.

beliges
12-15-2013, 09:58 PM
Stats are misleading because kobe came into the league at age 17. If you compare kobes stats to wades by age you can clearly see why wade is not in kobes league. This does not even take into consideration that kobe is one of the best perimeter defenders of his generation.

flashwade03
12-16-2013, 07:56 PM
i would have to disagree with this one .. though , many of you seems reasonable for agreeing wade is better than kobe .. many of you also said "IF" not injury prone or wade takes 2 fewest shots over kobe would mean that he is better .. im a huge d wade fan but we dont need this kind of comparison .. plus d wade wont be the 2nd sg ever .. remember jordan ? .. plus kobe and wade that seems top 3 to me .. the thread title is wade is better than kobe but theres a lot of IF .. so we dont know what will really happen ..

Pablonovi
12-17-2013, 02:57 AM
You post as if all the footage and documentation of his career was lost in a hurricane. We can watch the tapes... see the form... look at that lightening quick release with perfect form that was famously renowned throughout the league as the best there was. Let's not pretend that it is impossible to determine who is an elite shooter simply because hoopdata wasn't around at the time to force feed it to you. I'd venture to guess that you would not find a single NBA Scout or Historian that wouldn't laugh out loud at the notion that you "just can't know" who is a better shooter between Wade and Jerry West due to a lack of certain metrics. He actually gets hosed on metrics in relation to post 1981 players on account of having a lower ppg total and TS% due to no 3pt line.

Hey tredigs,
We agree to a very high degree. I've found it nothing less than mind-boggling to have watched West's entire career and read now where someone is doubted that he was a great outside shooter; moreso still when comparing that aspect of West's game to DWade's. I'd image one could say and not be far off that: West was as far superior an outside shooter compared to DWade as DWade was far superior a driver compared to West.

Minor point for clarification: In your last sentence I'm assuming that you are trying to make the point that West's ppg total & TS% would both have been significantly higher had they had the 3 pt line back then. Right? It's just that these words read a little "strange": "He actually gets hosed on metrics ... on account of having a lower ppg total ..." Maybe it's just me reading things a little wrong.

Pablonovi
12-17-2013, 03:00 AM
The guy who got banned. Not you Pablo. You are a fine poster.

Hey naps,
Thanx for the clarification.
And thanx muchly for the compliment.

WES KOAST
12-30-2013, 08:49 PM
You saw the stats Wade is better that's all there is to it. Wade doesn't get near as much credit as he should as a player and that's just crazy I mean you see his stats are better but I doubt you would even have him in your top 3 shooting guards which is crazy. You have your opinion I have mine if you want a player you want Kobe if I want one I have Wade it is what it is. And your comment about them not in the same breath is ignorant as hell these two and MJ are obviously the best 3 at their position ever so obviously they can be used in the same breath. Kobe's legacy is done Wade is still building on to his so we can debate when their careers are over.

stats? man I hate kobe but he's the only sg even close to Jordan. wade got a lot of work to do b4 he can be in the same conversation as #24

WES KOAST
12-30-2013, 09:01 PM
One important thing you're ignoring, is that a number of stats are missing (for West). Which makes it somewhat hard to quantify just how productive he was as a player. You're also not min-adjusting per 48. West played damn near 40 mins per game, compared to Wade. Yes he's a slightly better assist generator, and rebounder, but the difference is relatively minimal. As to what concerns forced turns and blocks, West played in one lone season that saw them record those stats (his final year in the league), I'd hardly say that qualifies as proof that West was better at forcing turns than Wade. Wade is probably better at doing everything West did, with the exception of assisting (barely), shooting free-throws, and rebounding (barely).

Wade is the greatest SG since his airness himself (the numbers back him up). The verdict is still out on guys like Curry and Harden, since they're relatively young. And Ginobili def gets an honorable nod.

kobe >>>wade

a few things wade mite be better than kobe at (slightly) are steals, perimeter d and getting to the rim. other than that, kobe destroys wade in every other aspect of the game