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View Full Version : More proof Melo doesn't make teammates better



Kushed
12-12-2013, 10:11 AM
Has always been a great scorer but this is why I believe Melo is overrated.

He has led the Knicks in scoring in all 21 games and they have been terrible It shouldn't all fall on Melo but he's been doing the same thing for years. It looks like he's done nothing to improve his game from a standpoint of making his team better. He's a ball stopper. There are 10-15 guys I'd rather have right now then him.

Maybe it's the system and the people around him but got damn you'd think he'd be a better creator at this point in his career.

NYKnickFanatic
12-12-2013, 10:16 AM
Who cares.

And his teammates just can't hit open shots, they have been horrible this year.

In the games that we have won, it's from the ball movement from Melo and people hitting their shots. He gets doubled and finds the open man, or gets the hockey assist. If you watched the game last night, we were blowing the Bulls out with ball movement, once that stopped, they caught up.

NYKnickFanatic
12-12-2013, 10:17 AM
Also, who cares, if this is something everyone knows...

D-Leethal
12-12-2013, 10:41 AM
How exactly do you think we hit so many goddamn 3s last year? Kidd, Novak, Prigs, Shump creating those shots themselves? Melo was the only reason there was so many wide open 3s for everyone last season. You don't need to get a direct assist to make teammates better.

Melo forces his share of the issue, but his teammates force it even more. Last night Pablo couldn't even get the ball across half court and was calling for Melo to come get the ball every time down the floor as he was getting locked up full court Jeremy Lin vs Miami style.

Guppyfighter
12-12-2013, 10:51 AM
How exactly do you think we hit so many goddamn 3s last year? Kidd, Novak, Prigs, Shump creating those shots themselves? Melo was the only reason there was so many wide open 3s for everyone last season. You don't need to get a direct assist to make teammates better.

Melo forces his share of the issue, but his teammates force it even more. Last night Pablo couldn't even get the ball across half court and was calling for Melo to come get the ball every time down the floor as he was getting locked up full court Jeremy Lin vs Miami style.

Okay, Leethal.

Sly Guy
12-12-2013, 11:03 AM
op, what evidence is this?

He's been the highest scorer on his team all games, but their record is awful? Hardly evidence. Please, make claims based on things like efficiency stats, not 'he scores most yet they still lose'.

LongIslandIcedZ
12-12-2013, 11:11 AM
Where is the proof?

I imagine he was the leading scorer in all of their wins last year too.

I'm far from his biggest fan, and I dont think he really makes his teammates better. But the fact that he scores in losses isnt proof of that.

xxplayerxx23
12-12-2013, 11:30 AM
It doesn't matter what anybody says psd isn't going to say that he does anything well. When in fact he passes out of doubles very well but it's his fault smith, shump, etc miss wide open shots okay. Or how about when he drives and kicks to Kmart it's his fault Martin can't hit a layup? Or how about when he kicks it out and then the person he kicks it out to passes and that person hits an open shot? Guess that doesn't count, people like to look at an assist number it's kinda funny.

THE MTL
12-12-2013, 11:39 AM
Has always been a great scorer but this is why I believe Melo is overrated.

He has led the Knicks in scoring in all 21 games and they have been terrible It shouldn't all fall on Melo but he's been doing the same thing for years. It looks like he's done nothing to improve his game from a standpoint of making his team better. He's a ball stopper. There are 10-15 guys I'd rather have right now then him.

Maybe it's the system and the people around him but got damn you'd think he'd be a better creator at this point in his career.

Please dont comment on the Knicks when you clearly DONT watch. Every Knick fan knows how bad his teammates have been this year and the effort that Melo gives in passing. Unfortunately, 9 times out of 10 he is the only person "CAPABLE" of scoring.

xxplayerxx23
12-12-2013, 12:11 PM
Please dont comment on the Knicks when you clearly DONT watch. Every Knick fan knows how bad his teammates have been this year and the effort that Melo gives in passing. Unfortunately, 9 times out of 10 he is the only person "CAPABLE" of scoring.

Until the last 4 games. Amare has really stepped it up.

NYKnickFanatic
12-12-2013, 12:37 PM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2qy6rbFCz1r67zo4o1_500.gif

NYKnickFanatic
12-12-2013, 12:38 PM
Until the last 4 games. Amare has really stepped it up.

Amare has been balling. Real efficient, as well. Looks like he is finally getting his groove back. Also, played some good D last night!

NYY09
12-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Has always been a great scorer but this is why I believe Melo is overrated.

He has led the Knicks in scoring in all 21 games and they have been terrible It shouldn't all fall on Melo but he's been doing the same thing for years. It looks like he's done nothing to improve his game from a standpoint of making his team better. He's a ball stopper. There are 10-15 guys I'd rather have right now then him.

Maybe it's the system and the people around him but got damn you'd think he'd be a better creator at this point in his career.

First the highlighted section, who else on the team is actually good enough to lead them in scoring? Besides, he's a scorer, it's what he's supposed to do and is best at. Were you also bashing Rodman because all he did was rebound?

Second, cool story bro. Clearly you're either just trying to troll or you like making pointless threads. Yes, Melo is who he is and people should just accept it and move on, but thanks for sharing your "beliefs", I for one have not gained a single iota of intelligence reading what you wrote.

And finally, :yawn:

BklynKnicks3
12-12-2013, 01:15 PM
basketball is like a bathing suit its not for everybody :) I fu watch games instead of check box score ud see how many open shots felton jr shumpert miss of melo passes Melo should have had 10 asissts yesterday he had some crazy passes to marting who missed layups and got fouled

b@llhog24
12-13-2013, 09:54 AM
He makes his team better just doesn't do as good of a job as the upper echelon of players like Paul, Bron, etc.

b@llhog24
12-13-2013, 09:55 AM
Btw your example was horrible.

RiceOnTheRun
12-13-2013, 10:35 AM
If you look at most other "stars" around the league, they definitely have more help than Melo.

Even at his position. Bron has Wade/Bosh, KD has Westbrook, PG has Hibbert.

Melo has Bargnani and JR.

With the roster we have now, I honestly don't think we have a shot at the championship. Call me a fairweather fan or whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is we suck right now. It was exciting before we got demolished in the post-season last year, but with the way we've been playing it's pretty disappointing. Hopefully this changes when Tyson comes back, but our ceiling right now is rather low unless we can find a way for our players to magically mesh somehow.

Melo is a "chucker" sure, maybe there might be some truth behind that, but who would you rather have taking shots? JR? Bargnani? He doesn't have the luxury Lebron has with sharpshooter teammates who can reliably hit their shots. 9 times out of 10, unless he's double or triple teamed he probably has a better shot than nearly anyone else on our team. I don't know how people expect Melo to "make his teammates better", carry the team scoring-wise while always finding the open man and being a defensive stalwart? News flash, Melo isn't Lebron James. If it were that easy, everyone would do it.

IndyRealist
12-13-2013, 11:25 AM
@OP, As much as I love to pile on Melo, this isn't exactly evidence when you even say that it could be the system or his teammates.

And as I'm so fond of saying: Players do not create shots. Plays create shots.

TheNumber37
12-13-2013, 12:07 PM
Has always been a great scorer but this is why I believe Melo is overrated.

He has led the Knicks in scoring in all 21 games and they have been terrible It shouldn't all fall on Melo but he's been doing the same thing for years. It looks like he's done nothing to improve his game from a standpoint of making his team better. He's a ball stopper. There are 10-15 guys I'd rather have right now then him.

Maybe it's the system and the people around him but got damn you'd think he'd be a better creator at this point in his career.

He's raised his rebounding rate by 20-30% to compensate for guys who can't get it done, covering up their weaknesses. He passes out of double teams and his teammates either miss the shots or swing the ball to other side for open looks.
Last year the Knicks set records for 3 point shooting and fewest turnovers. This was ONLY because of Melo because the team knew where the ball was going (hence lence turnovers) and the passing out of doubles created open shots for teammates who could make them last year (hence the 3 point shooting).

Melo's best skill is his offensive dominance. Being that, it has to maximized, so that teammates get open and easier shots. THIS year, it's NOT being maximized because there isn't the same shooting and the guard play and post play is non existent.
How overrated was Melo on team USA, where he was playing his ACTUAL role in a winning situation, a finisher of a play who rebounds well for his position, tries to defend and keep the ball moving.

Yes, he is NOT in the 25, 5, 5 club - a realm we seem to expect players like him to get to.
BUT, he Averaging 26, 10 and 3. He has more double doubles in the first 20 games than he did all last season.

ONLY in the PSD can a guy average 26, 10 and 3 and get bashed. It's comparable to Dirk in a good year (sans the shooting)

TheNumber37
12-13-2013, 12:13 PM
HOW can One IMPROVE THEIR GAME TO MAKE OTHERS BETTER!?
Practice... passing. Practice... leadership.

The only thing Melo can do do Improve the games of others around him is to improve the efficiency of his offensive approach so that teammates get easier shots. But, that's coaching. They RUN Isos, Melo is not calling plays... and Frankly... starting with Melo in the high post on either block is a great place to start from because doubles will and DO come.
What can you do when you don't have a PG or other guards for that matter who can consistently penetrate the defense and make open shots.

Winning changes everything... at 15-6, Melo could easily have the same stats and all of sudden is game is acceptable.
A lot guys, Melo is not one of the 10-20 guys you'd pick first, yet I bet he is a lot of peoples Big 3 scenarios that would turn their teams to contenders.

Bklyn24
12-13-2013, 12:17 PM
your "proof" that melo doesn't make teammates better is by saying he led the team in scoring all 21 games and they are terrible? Melo led the knicks in scoring almost every game last year and they won 54 games.

If you are going to start a thread saying there is "PROOF", then please don't post that garbage with your own melo-hating opinions, we have all heard them over and over for years

D-Leethal
12-13-2013, 01:35 PM
@OP, As much as I love to pile on Melo, this isn't exactly evidence when you even say that it could be the system or his teammates.

And as I'm so fond of saying: Players do not create shots. Plays create shots.

Almost every play requires a man to beat a defender and collapse a defense. You can't run a play for 5 Steve Novaks that will get him an open shot everytime.

Almost every play is going to end up in a 1v1 matchup at some point and every set requires enough triple threats to keep the defense honest and not allow them to all stay home on their men.
Your saying is kind of bogus. There aren't miracle plays that produce open shots without the right personnel. Part of that personnel is having guys who can create space and get a shot off against a defender or a penetrator who can collapse a defense and hit open jump shooters.

D-Leethal
12-13-2013, 01:36 PM
How exactly do you think we hit so many goddamn 3s last year? Kidd, Novak, Prigs, Shump creating those shots themselves? Melo was the only reason there was so many wide open 3s for everyone last season. You don't need to get a direct assist to make teammates better.

Melo forces his share of the issue, but his teammates force it even more. Last night Pablo couldn't even get the ball across half court and was calling for Melo to come get the ball every time down the floor as he was getting locked up full court Jeremy Lin vs Miami style.

Okay, Leethal.

Those exact sentiments were echoed by Barry throughout the game as Prigs struggled to get the ball to the arc with more than 12 seconds on the clock.

Guppyfighter
12-13-2013, 02:39 PM
The Knicks are obviously a better team with Melo, but I find it odd that you said the three point attempts were dependent on him considering when he was off court they only shot one percent worse on threes at the same rate, last year of course.


Good thing the Knicks got rid of the efficient players though. Why would anyone think efficiency win games? Worked out much better for them this year.

Kashmir13579
12-13-2013, 03:37 PM
How exactly do you think we hit so many goddamn 3s last year? Kidd, Novak, Prigs, Shump creating those shots themselves? Melo was the only reason there was so many wide open 3s for everyone last season. You don't need to get a direct assist to make teammates better.

Melo forces his share of the issue, but his teammates force it even more. Last night Pablo couldn't even get the ball across half court and was calling for Melo to come get the ball every time down the floor as he was getting locked up full court Jeremy Lin vs Miami style.

Defending 'Melo while knocking Jeremy Lin... Two bird with one stone for you.

Kashmir13579
12-13-2013, 03:37 PM
Btw your example was horrible.

lol was waiting for someone to say this

D-Leethal
12-13-2013, 04:41 PM
How exactly do you think we hit so many goddamn 3s last year? Kidd, Novak, Prigs, Shump creating those shots themselves? Melo was the only reason there was so many wide open 3s for everyone last season. You don't need to get a direct assist to make teammates better.

Melo forces his share of the issue, but his teammates force it even more. Last night Pablo couldn't even get the ball across half court and was calling for Melo to come get the ball every time down the floor as he was getting locked up full court Jeremy Lin vs Miami style.

Defending 'Melo while knocking Jeremy Lin... Two bird with one stone for you.

That game was a huge deal around here so I figured it was a good way to portray a PG getting stifled by pressure defense.

IndyRealist
12-13-2013, 05:22 PM
Almost every play requires a man to beat a defender and collapse a defense. You can't run a play for 5 Steve Novaks that will get him an open shot everytime.

Almost every play is going to end up in a 1v1 matchup at some point and every set requires enough triple threats to keep the defense honest and not allow them to all stay home on their men.
Your saying is kind of bogus. There aren't miracle plays that produce open shots without the right personnel. Part of that personnel is having guys who can create space and get a shot off against a defender or a penetrator who can collapse a defense and hit open jump shooters.

Straw man arguments abound. No one said personnel didn't matter. And I certainly didn't say 5 Steve Novaks constitutes a team. Try actually commenting on what I actually wrote?

Personnel absolutely matters. But you seem to think clearing out a side and having a guy go 1 on 1 for a contested fadeaway is somehow beneficial to your team. And you place a disproportionate amount of emphasis on that over, say, being able to set a bonecrushing pick or being a 45% 3pt shooter that defenses can't help off of. In a PnR, the pick setter is just as responsible creating the play because he is forcing the defense to make a decision as much as the ballhandler is. I watched the Pacers go through a couple of years without a single player able to set a clean pick, and it was brutal. And can we talk about how less effective Melo is without Novak and Kidd spacing the floor? That floor spacing is JUST as important, or moreso, to making the offense run than Melo's iso "skills".

Pick setters create shots. Weakside cutters create shots. 3pt shooters create shots. Iso basketball only creates bad shots, when it takes everyone else out of the offense. So yes, players do not create shots. Plays create shots.

jstone0716
12-13-2013, 06:37 PM
Losing is a collective effort. Melo definitely isn't the reason the Knicks are losing right now.....

Guppyfighter
12-14-2013, 05:01 AM
Straw man arguments abound. No one said personnel didn't matter. And I certainly didn't say 5 Steve Novaks constitutes a team. Try actually commenting on what I actually wrote?

Personnel absolutely matters. But you seem to think clearing out a side and having a guy go 1 on 1 for a contested fadeaway is somehow beneficial to your team. And you place a disproportionate amount of emphasis on that over, say, being able to set a bonecrushing pick or being a 45% 3pt shooter that defenses can't help off of. In a PnR, the pick setter is just as responsible creating the play because he is forcing the defense to make a decision as much as the ballhandler is. I watched the Pacers go through a couple of years without a single player able to set a clean pick, and it was brutal. And can we talk about how less effective Melo is without Novak and Kidd spacing the floor? That floor spacing is JUST as important, or moreso, to making the offense run than Melo's iso "skills".

Pick setters create shots. Weakside cutters create shots. 3pt shooters create shots. Iso basketball only creates bad shots, when it takes everyone else out of the offense. So yes, players do not create shots. Plays create shots.


Yep. Melo played in the perfect system for his iso ball last year.

It's why he produced his best year.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-14-2013, 07:21 PM
Melo doesnt get assists because his teammates wont make baskets. ugh makes sense :rolleyes:

So its been like this his entire career :eyebrow: