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Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 06:46 PM
How can people love MJ so much yet hate Lebron more than Latrelle Sprewell, MWP, etc? Please be objective as possible. MJ was the best player to grace the game, but he's a terrible role model. From lying on a golf course about betting, having a in your face persona, fighting with Perdue and Cartwright, etc. Sprewell was arrogant with his last contract offer from the T-Wolves and choked his coach in practice. MWP assaulted a fan when he should've just asked security to escort a guy out instead of stooping to the level of a fan if he/she could be an instigator, he elbowed James Harden in the face, etc. Lebron literally left a team, had an on air special that raised money for charity, has not gotten into legal trouble or trouble within bars, attended a party that was thrown by the Heat, may speak too much on Twitter, etc. Lebron is not as bad as people make him out to be. Go beyond the flopping argument or the he cannot win on his own or take the last shot or he chokes. Please explain to me why MJ is a better role model on and off the court than Lebron?

P&GRealist
12-11-2013, 06:53 PM
How can people love MJ so much yet hate Lebron more than Latrelle Sprewell, MWP, etc? Please be objective as possible. MJ was the best player to grace the game, but he's a terrible role model. From lying on a golf course about betting, having a in your face persona, fighting with Perdue and Cartwright, etc. Sprewell was arrogant with his last contract offer from the T-Wolves and choked his coach in practice. MWP assaulted a fan when he should've just asked security to escort a guy out instead of stooping to the level of a fan if he/she could be an instigator, he elbowed James Harden in the face, etc. Lebron literally left a team, had an on air special that raised money for charity, has not gotten into legal trouble or trouble within bars, attended a party that was thrown by the Heat, may speak too much on Twitter, etc. Lebron is not as bad as people make him out to be. Go beyond the flopping argument or the he cannot win on his own or take the last shot or he chokes. Please explain to me why MJ is a better role model on and off the court than Lebron?

Who says everyone hates LeBron?

Someone's overreacting just a tad bit much, no?

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 06:56 PM
Who says everyone hates LeBron?

Someone's overreacting just a tad bit much, no?

Although the sample size is small, whenever I am on ESPN, Facebook, etc, people are always bashing on Lebron in the comments section (outside of this site since I just read for news rather than opinion posts unless I find something captivating.) I just see too much of the national media bashing on Lebron too, so it could generate the opinions of some people across the viewership of ESPN or some media outlet.

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 06:57 PM
How can people love MJ so much yet hate Lebron more than Latrelle Sprewell, MWP, etc? Please be objective as possible. MJ was the best player to grace the game, but he's a terrible role model. From lying on a golf course about betting, having a in your face persona, fighting with Perdue and Cartwright, etc. Sprewell was arrogant with his last contract offer from the T-Wolves and choked his coach in practice. MWP assaulted a fan when he should've just asked security to escort a guy out instead of stooping to the level of a fan if he/she could be an instigator, he elbowed James Harden in the face, etc. Lebron literally left a team, had an on air special that raised money for charity, has not gotten into legal trouble or trouble within bars, attended a party that was thrown by the Heat, may speak too much on Twitter, etc. Lebron is not as bad as people make him out to be. Go beyond the flopping argument or the he cannot win on his own or take the last shot or he chokes. Please explain to me why MJ is a better role model on and off the court than Lebron?

I have yet to meet a person who can justify hating LeBron. It's usually "The way he left Cleveland", but when I asked them why it bothers them so much all they can say is "It just does".

I think MJ is loved and his off-court character overlooked because he displayed "heart" like so many like to say. He went through every obstacle head on and didn't let anything deter his determination. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, Jeter, those guys can be the biggest dicks off the court/field and people will love them because they are strong willed.

Max.This
12-11-2013, 06:58 PM
I dont know about everyone else, but I dislike the HEAT equally as a whole. When Lebron joined the equation, its only natural that I hate him too. Its not a Lebron thing, its more like a HEAT thing

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:05 PM
I have yet to meet a person who can justify hating LeBron. It's usually "The way he left Cleveland", but when I asked them why it bothers them so much all they can say is "It just does".

I think MJ is loved and his off-court character overlooked because he displayed "heart" like so many like to say. He went through every obstacle head on and didn't let anything deter his determination. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, Jeter, those guys can be the biggest dicks off the court/field and people will love them because they are strong willed.

Fair points. Maybe I am in the select group of people who look at on and off the realm of play personas to determine who I support? I guess I am taking sports too serious though because people just look at performances? Or does it bring into question about how apathetic people can be because they just show hatred or dislike without any merit to it?

jerellh528
12-11-2013, 07:07 PM
Everyone loves Lebron, that's probably why some people don't like him. He's shoved down our throats. Wwe has the same effect with john cena.

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:07 PM
I dont know about everyone else, but I dislike the HEAT equally as a whole. When Lebron joined the equation, its only natural that I hate him too. Its not a Lebron thing, its more like a HEAT thing

How so? Under Riley and Stan Van, the Heat never had anything to dislike them about off the top of my head, but I have been a Heat fan since I was 6, so that might be some homering on my part.

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 07:09 PM
I dont know about everyone else, but I dislike the HEAT equally as a whole. When Lebron joined the equation, its only natural that I hate him too. Its not a Lebron thing, its more like a HEAT thing

I don't understand this either.

Why hate a team for being great, or for being great due to friends wanting to play together?

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 07:10 PM
Everyone loves Lebron, that's probably why some people don't like him. He's shoved down our throats. Wwe has the same effect with john cena.

I believe LeBron was voted the most hated player 2 years ago.

Gibby23
12-11-2013, 07:11 PM
Social Media and TV. MJ didn't have all this social Media and TV hype back inthe 90's and now everything comes out real time. You would have to wait to read about the MJ betting stories or how he was fighting with players on his team. Also, when Lebron is retired, the hate will go to respect.

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 07:13 PM
Social Media and TV. MJ didn't have all this social Media and TV hype back inthe 90's and now everything comes out real time. You would have to wait to read about the MJ betting stories or how he was fighting with players on his team. Also, when Lebron is retired, the hate will go to respect.

Michael Jordan did have a lot of attention on him, but it's true that you had to wait to hear his ugly personality whereas in today's world you'd probably hear about it no later than a week after it occurred.

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:14 PM
Everyone loves Lebron, that's probably why some people don't like him. He's shoved down our throats. Wwe has the same effect with john cena.

Isn't that the nature of sports entertainment or the "business?" ESPN is terrible with it too. They have anti Lebron guys and Lebron lovers alike. They ride on Kobe at times too. It's just something I see far too often in media in general. People maximize the bottomline instead of being objective. Fox News and MSNBC alike are filled with these pundits that bash stuff and it hardly seems objective at all. Agenda pushing is too sleazy imo.

J4KOP99
12-11-2013, 07:16 PM
I guess the garbage men took today off. That or they didnt see this thread.

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:17 PM
Social Media and TV. MJ didn't have all this social Media and TV hype back inthe 90's and now everything comes out real time. You would have to wait to read about the MJ betting stories or how he was fighting with players on his team. Also, when Lebron is retired, the hate will go to respect.

Good point as well. I heard a similar discussion with social media on the Dan Lebatard show today. Is this 24/7 news cycle getting to the point that things are not microscopic anymore and stories are forced out? Should stars control their image to keep their brand names in tact? I like it when players can speak their mind. I don't agree with Tim Thomas' stance on Obama by not attending the White House invite to meet Obama for winning a Stanley Cup because I respect the presidency no matter who is in office to a certain degree, but it's good on his part to share his opinion. Same with Chris Kluwe with LGBT rights.

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:19 PM
I guess the garbage men took today off. That or they didnt see this thread.

That's not really an objective opinion. This is a mere discussion on how players are viewed with respect to Lebron and most of the points people make aren't bad at all. I am actually having a discussion with people, so don't get mad if this topic grows old to you.

Gibby23
12-11-2013, 07:19 PM
Michael Jordan did have a lot of attention on him, but it's true that you had to wait to hear his ugly personality whereas in today's world you'd probably hear about it no later than a week after it occurred.

He did, but you couldn't get a bunch of people together on a messag board to talk about it or look for new tweets every second by some new source.

Rivera
12-11-2013, 07:21 PM
Does it matter. Let the haters hate. Enjoy watching bron while he's here. I am

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 07:22 PM
He did, but you couldn't get a bunch of people together on a messag board to talk about it or look for new tweets every second by some new source.

That's true, but I don't think that's why people hate LeBron. I mean, people love Kobe.

Gibby23
12-11-2013, 07:24 PM
That's true, but I don't think that's why people hate LeBron. I mean, people love Kobe.

People still hate Kobe, but they hate was strong in his prime. I used to hate MJ and then he retired the 1st time. I was pumped when he came back and that is when I became a fan of his. I hated him because they beat the Lakers for his 1st championship.

kingsdelez24
12-11-2013, 07:25 PM
Everyone loves Lebron, that's probably why some people don't like him. He's shoved down our throats. Wwe has the same effect with john cena.

Except anyone with charisma and somewhat decent in ring capabilities can be just like him if WWE wants

However it takes legitimate talent to be at LeBron's caliber

nickdymez
12-11-2013, 07:25 PM
Im a pretty unbiased basketball fan, people who really know me know this. Lebron urks me because of his fans and the media.

-He was "Crowned" before he even played a game.
-His fans overlook his obvious flaws in order to make him the best player ever
-his fans consider him the best player ever
-It seems like he doesnt have to battle to achieve greatness, not many "Great moments" in his career.
-ESPN shoves him down out throats

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:26 PM
That's true, but I don't think that's why people hate LeBron. I mean, people love Kobe.

It goes back to the point brought up earlier about how people love how people overcome obstacles within sports or have some dominance on the court. Kobe, imo, is one of the more overrated players of recent memory, but that doesn't take away from his talent. He has been elite for years, improved defensively, has some clutch moments, etc. He's a winner because he played well with the talent he had on title teams. His off the court stuff is quite interesting: he has some arrogance, had negative publicity from the rape allegations, etc. I don't like him, but I respect his game. He has shot bad a lot, but it doesn't take away from his clutch moments.

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 07:27 PM
Im a pretty unbiased basketball fan, people who really know me know this. Lebron urks me because of his fans and the media.

-He was "Crowned" before he even played a game.
-His fans overlook his obvious flaws in order to make him the best player ever
-his fans consider him the best player ever
-It seems like he doesnt have to battle to achieve greatness, not many "Great moments" in his career.
-ESPN shoves him down out throats

So you dislike him because of what other people say about him?

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 07:28 PM
It goes back to the point brought up earlier about how people love how people overcome obstacles within sports or have some dominance on the court. Kobe, imo, is one of the more overrated players of recent memory, but that doesn't take away from his talent. He has been elite for years, improved defensively, has some clutch moments, etc. He's a winner because he played well with the talent he had on title teams. His off the court stuff is quite interesting: he has some arrogance, had negative publicity from the rape allegations, etc. I don't like him, but I respect his game. He has shot bad a lot, but it doesn't take away from his clutch moments.

He's extremely arrogant.

nickdymez
12-11-2013, 07:29 PM
So you dislike him because of what other people say about him?

No. I dont buy into what people say about him and it makes me resent him for it.

nickdymez
12-11-2013, 07:31 PM
It goes back to the point brought up earlier about how people love how people overcome obstacles within sports or have some dominance on the court. Kobe, imo, is one of the more overrated players of recent memory, but that doesn't take away from his talent. He has been elite for years, improved defensively, has some clutch moments, etc. He's a winner because he played well with the talent he had on title teams. His off the court stuff is quite interesting: he has some arrogance, had negative publicity from the rape allegations, etc. I don't like him, but I respect his game. He has shot bad a lot, but it doesn't take away from his clutch moments.

And im a Lakers fan. Heat fans have made it their personal mission to attack Kobe Bryant. This guy just said Kobe was overrated. How could Kobe really even be Overrrated?

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:33 PM
Im a pretty unbiased basketball fan, people who really know me know this. Lebron urks me because of his fans and the media.

-He was "Crowned" before he even played a game.
-His fans overlook his obvious flaws in order to make him the best player ever
-his fans consider him the best player ever
-It seems like he doesnt have to battle to achieve greatness, not many "Great moments" in his career.
-ESPN shoves him down out throats

Yeah, a lot of that stuff I can agree with. Anointing yourself and embracing yourself as a royal person is arrogant. Fans are going to biased in general. Nobody is a perfect player. Like MJ was not an elite 3 point shooter. 32.7% for his career. Each player will have a flaw, some fatal, some just minor. He has the best chance right now to become the greatest ever, and his talent cannot be denied. Is he the greatest ever right now? Nope, MJ is all alone. Kobe is considered the 2nd closest, but I would say it's not that close as people think. Well, great moments don't occur at the flip of the switch. He has had two good game winners in the ECFs that I can recall: one against Orlando and one against Indiana. ESPN is doing what's in its best interest and to be fair, as scummy as it is to me, I would do the same because they are doing what's best for the company (but that's from the view of of an average fan.) I can apply economics to it and see how Disney is doing according to economists and other economic commentators, but that's besides the point. I am just saying I would do the same because that's how the system is designed to work, and it's hard to overhaul because it would take everyone to play their part.

sixer04fan
12-11-2013, 07:33 PM
To put it as simply as possible - Jordan was the coolest, Lebron just isn't. People in general just liked the guy Jordan was more than they like Lebron. I don't mean that as an insult to Lebron. But as far as "role model" goes, if that's what you're asking, Lebron is a better role model in actuality, for sure. He's really a great dude.

But I think you're underrating the amount of hate MJ got, and overrating the amount of Lebron hate. It's really died down since after his first season in Miami, aside from the bonafide Heat haters and internet trolls.

Another factor is the media coverage. It's such a greater factor now than it was in the 80's and 90's. ESPN and other outlets completely influenced people to hate Lebron for leaving Cleveland. And now those same media outlets love him again, but they are shoving him down your throat 24/7, so if you didn't care for him to begin with, you might hate him now. SportsCenter is now "Breaking News: Lebron tweeted today." And it's not his fault, it's just the twisted way the media works for ratings.

sunsfan88
12-11-2013, 07:34 PM
Only Laker fans hate LeBron and that's because they can't stand the thought of LeBron being a better player than Kobe.

If Laker fans actually didn't compare LeBron to Kobe and just appreciated LeBron for himself, they wouldn't hate him either.

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:35 PM
And im a Lakers fan. Heat fans have made it their personal mission to attack Kobe Bryant. This guy just said Kobe was overrated. How could Kobe really even be Overrrated?

I don't find him to the be the 2nd greatest of all time. People put him in that realm. I am just saying I would take Magic, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, etc over him. Is he a top 15 greatest player of all time, probably, top 10, arguable, but top 5, too hesitant to go that far.

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:38 PM
To put it as simply as possible - Jordan was the coolest, Lebron just isn't. People in general just liked the guy Jordan was more than they like Lebron. I don't mean that as an insult to Lebron. But as far as "role model" goes, if that's what you're asking, Lebron is a better role model in actuality, for sure. He's really a great dude.

But I think you're underrating the amount of hate MJ got, and overrating the amount of Lebron hate. It's really died down since after his first season in Miami, aside from the bonafide Heat haters and internet trolls.

Another factor is the media coverage. It's such a greater factor now than it was in the 80's and 90's. ESPN and other outlets completely influenced people to hate Lebron for leaving Cleveland. And now those same media outlets love him again, but they are shoving him down your throat 24/7, so if you didn't care for him to begin with, you might hate him now. SportsCenter is now "Breaking News: Lebron tweeted today." And it's not his fault, it's just the twisted way the media works for ratings.

Could it also be relatablity for fans to consider themselves more like MJ and Kobe instead of Lebron? Yeah, the media is a necessary evil to say the least, but then again, they do it because it gets ratings. So it's a chicken or the egg argument.

Yanks All Day
12-11-2013, 07:39 PM
Cleveland fans hate him because of the way he left. That's the only justified hate.

Lakers fans hate him because he's better than Kobe.

Jordan fans hate him because he's the only one with the potential to be on Jordan's level, and no one wants a player to ever match Michael Jordan.

NBA fans hate him because he's the reason their favorite team won't win a title anytime soon.

Casual fans hate him because the internet said it is cool to do that.

Some people hate him because of the ESPN hype machine, but he seems to be the only player ever who has lived up to the hype, and then some. He is shoved down our throats, but so is every other star.

By all accounts, the guy is a hard worker and has never done anything wrong off the court. On the court, he's the best player in the world (by a long shot) and plays selfless basketball. He's the rare star who can dominate offensively and defensively, but loves watching his teammates succeed. He didn't force his way out of Cleveland- he left as a free agent after the team did nothing to supply him with a reputable supporting cast. Literally the only thing he has done wrong in his career is leave his hometown team on national television to go win multiple rings while playing in South Beach on a great team.

Maybe people are tired of hearing about him, or maybe people don't want to see him on TV so much. But those people are missing out on a once-in-a-lifetime talent. 99% of the hate for LeBron is unfounded.

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:44 PM
Cleveland fans hate him because of the way he left. That's the only justified hate.

Lakers fans hate him because he's better than Kobe.

Jordan fans hate him because he's the only one with the potential to be on Jordan's level, and no one wants a player to ever match Michael Jordan.

NBA fans hate him because he's the reason their favorite team won't win a title anytime soon.

Casual fans hate him because the internet said it is cool to do that.

Some people hate him because of the ESPN hype machine, but he seems to be the only player ever who has lived up to the hype, and then some. He is shoved down our throats, but so is every other star.

By all accounts, the guy is a hard worker and has never done anything wrong off the court. On the court, he's the best player in the world (by a long shot) and plays selfless basketball. He's the rare star who can dominate offensively and defensively, but loves watching his teammates succeed. He didn't force his way out of Cleveland- he left as a free agent after the team did nothing to supply him with a reputable supporting cast. Literally the only thing he has done wrong in his career is leave his hometown team on national television to go win multiple rings while playing in South Beach on a great team.

Maybe people are tired of hearing about him, or maybe people don't want to see him on TV so much. But those people are missing out on a once-in-a-lifetime talent. 99% of the hate for LeBron is unfounded.

Great summary on your part imo. Yeah, that's one of the things I'll miss as a Heat fan. When being a parent, I can tell my kids I was there from the year 2000 forward with the Heat through the thick and thin. Hate is petty after all, so disliking is fine, but I don't really want to hate people myself since hate is designed for someone who probably slept with your wife, robbed your home, or does something excruciatingly painful to you in some fashion.

nickdymez
12-11-2013, 07:46 PM
I don't find him to the be the 2nd greatest of all time. People put him in that realm. I am just saying I would take Magic, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, etc over him. Is he a top 15 greatest player of all time, probably, top 10, arguable, but top 5, too hesitant to go that far.

I understand that you have a choice of who you would take before you take Kobe. But to say he's overrated, I dont get that. What part of his game do people overrate? But I agree, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

nickdymez
12-11-2013, 07:49 PM
Cleveland fans hate him because of the way he left. That's the only justified hate.

Lakers fans hate him because he's better than Kobe.

Jordan fans hate him because he's the only one with the potential to be on Jordan's level, and no one wants a player to ever match Michael Jordan.

NBA fans hate him because he's the reason their favorite team won't win a title anytime soon.

Casual fans hate him because the internet said it is cool to do that.

Some people hate him because of the ESPN hype machine, but he seems to be the only player ever who has lived up to the hype, and then some. He is shoved down our throats, but so is every other star.

By all accounts, the guy is a hard worker and has never done anything wrong off the court. On the court, he's the best player in the world (by a long shot) and plays selfless basketball. He's the rare star who can dominate offensively and defensively, but loves watching his teammates succeed. He didn't force his way out of Cleveland- he left as a free agent after the team did nothing to supply him with a reputable supporting cast. Literally the only thing he has done wrong in his career is leave his hometown team on national television to go win multiple rings while playing in South Beach on a great team.

Maybe people are tired of hearing about him, or maybe people don't want to see him on TV so much. But those people are missing out on a once-in-a-lifetime talent. 99% of the hate for LeBron is unfounded.

See what I mean. Its like his proponants force their opinion down your throat in an arrogant way. Honestly, I dont believe any true Laker fans really had it out for Lebron until his fans started taking shots at Kobe. Of course we are going to stick up for our guy. I believe that most NBA minds would disagre. The main argument people have is stats, which is a pretty good one. lol

jerellh528
12-11-2013, 07:50 PM
Only Laker fans hate LeBron and that's because they can't stand the thought of LeBron being a better player than Kobe.

If Laker fans actually didn't compare LeBron to Kobe and just appreciated LeBron for himself, they wouldn't hate him either.

Nah, why would laker fans need to hate lebron? Laker fans are about rings, sure Kobe being a top 10 player of all time is great also. Kobe has helped contribute largely to our fan base enjoying 5 titles in recent history. We don't care who some people believe is the better player or whatever because Kobe has brought us to the peak of basketball fandom, winning championships 5x. Wade fans have a better reason to hate Lebron than laker fans do. Once those three joined up to form the big 3 or whatever, the true heat fanbase had to deal with all the bandwagoners because it's not common for superstars in their prime to join up instead of competing against each other and they knew inevitably a title was on its way. Probably doesn't taste as sweet.

bucketss
12-11-2013, 07:53 PM
laker fans hate him because hes better than their hero, bulls fans hate because hes denied them in 2010, plus he keeps eliminating them in the playoffs. cavs fans hate him because of the obvious, the rest just jumped on the hate bandwaggon or are jordan homers.

jerellh528
12-11-2013, 07:54 PM
laker fans hate him because hes better than their hero, bulls fans hate because hes denied them in 2010, plus he keeps eliminating them in the playoffs. cavs fans hate him because of the obvious, the rest just jumped on the hate bandwaggon or are jordan homers.

I hate him because people like you say stuff like this

nickdymez
12-11-2013, 07:54 PM
laker fans hate him because hes better than their hero, bulls fans hate because hes denied them in 2010, plus he keeps eliminating them in the playoffs. cavs fans hate him because of the obvious, the rest just jumped on the hate bandwaggon or are jordan homers.

See, most of the time its the "heat fans" that put the sour taste out there.

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 07:58 PM
I hate him because people like you say stuff like this

You hate him because of what somebody else said about him? That's stupid.

Wade n Fade
12-11-2013, 07:59 PM
I understand that you have a choice of who you would take before you take Kobe. But to say he's overrated, I dont get that. What part of his game do people overrate? But I agree, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I feel like the clutch factor was overrated because I feel like some players have higher %'s in clutch situations than Kobe and people consider him the 2nd best player overall. He's a good player and a good champ. I mean I don't hate him, but I am explaining why I find him overrated. Not much more than I can say besides clutchness and maybe people overweighing his value.

jerellh528
12-11-2013, 08:05 PM
You hate him because of what somebody else said about him? That's stupid.

Stupid is as stupid does. It's entirely rational to not like a player because of what people and media say about him. That's a huge factor on our perception of a public figure.

nickdymez
12-11-2013, 08:10 PM
I feel like the clutch factor was overrated because I feel like some players have higher %'s in clutch situations than Kobe and people consider him the 2nd best player overall. He's a good player and a good champ. I mean I don't hate him, but I am explaining why I find him overrated. Not much more than I can say besides clutchness and maybe people overweighing his value.

I feel you 100%.

nickdymez
12-11-2013, 08:11 PM
Stupid is as stupid does. It's entirely rational to not like a player because of what people and media say about him. That's a huge factor on our perception of a public figure.

This guy is an obvious Dupe. Not "jerellh", but the guy he's quoting.

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 08:12 PM
Stupid is as stupid does. It's entirely rational to not like a player because of what people and media say about him. That's a huge factor on our perception of a public figure.

Not exactly. If you can't come up with your own opinion on a person then sure I guess maybe I could understand that.

jerellh528
12-11-2013, 08:18 PM
Not exactly. If you can't come up with your own opinion on a person then sure I guess maybe I could understand that.
Yeah I'm guessing you're not highly educated. There's no such thing as own opinion, we gain our morals, opinions, and to a degree, our thoughts from outside stimulus. And from what I gathered, I formulated an opinion that I dislike him. I don't hate him as a person, the crap people say about how godly he is, and constantly forcing it down our throats lead me to resent the idea of Lebron. I have no clue who he is in his personal life and I don't care. His timid game is also not my favorite.

Dade County
12-11-2013, 08:23 PM
How can people love MJ so much yet hate Lebron more than Latrelle Sprewell, MWP, etc? Please be objective as possible. MJ was the best player to grace the game, but he's a terrible role model. From lying on a golf course about betting, having a in your face persona, fighting with Perdue and Cartwright, etc. Sprewell was arrogant with his last contract offer from the T-Wolves and choked his coach in practice. MWP assaulted a fan when he should've just asked security to escort a guy out instead of stooping to the level of a fan if he/she could be an instigator, he elbowed James Harden in the face, etc. Lebron literally left a team, had an on air special that raised money for charity, has not gotten into legal trouble or trouble within bars, attended a party that was thrown by the Heat, may speak too much on Twitter, etc. Lebron is not as bad as people make him out to be. Go beyond the flopping argument or the he cannot win on his own or take the last shot or he chokes. Please explain to me why MJ is a better role model on and off the court than Lebron?

I don't think fondly of Lbj because he throws games (also a Final against Dallas), and I think he is a sataness (if not a sataness my bad, but the con-artist throws games on a biweekly basses).

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 08:25 PM
Yeah I'm guessing you're not highly educated. There's no such thing as own opinion, we gain our morals, opinions, and to a degree, our thoughts from outside stimulus. And from what I gathered, I formulated an opinion that I dislike him. I don't hate him as a person, the crap people say about how godly he is, and constantly forcing it down our throats lead me to resent the idea of Lebron. I have no clue who he is in his personal life and I don't care. His timid game is also not my favorite.

You may speculate my formal education all you'd like.

There's no such thing as own opinion, yet you go on to say that you formulated your own opinion. Huh?

If people really do formulate their opinion on a public figure based on what strangers say about them, that's pretty sad.

So you hate the guy, yet you admit you don't know him personally. Huh, go figure.

bucketss
12-11-2013, 08:27 PM
I don't think fondly of Lbj because he throws games (also a Final against Dallas), and I think he is a sataness (if not a sataness my bad, but the con-artist throws games on a biweekly basses).

hes just following orders tho:rolleyes:

jerellh528
12-11-2013, 08:30 PM
You may speculate my formal education all you'd like.

There's no such thing as own opinion, yet you go on to say that you formulated your own opinion. Huh?

If people really do formulate their opinion on a public figure based on what strangers say about them, that's pretty sad.

So you hate the guy, yet you admit you don't know him personally. Huh, go figure.

Twist is what I say however you like. I'm saying because of what others say about Lebron makes me not like him. There's only so much bs that can constantly be shoved down your throat. Do you believe in god? Do you like god? There's no proof of god except what others say, yet it's the most believed figure of all time. Word of mouth is a strong tool.

imagesrdecievin
12-11-2013, 08:35 PM
I don't like Lebron and company because of the teaming up. I just can't respect it. "In order to be the best - you have to beat the best". Lebron went another way and therefore will never measure up to MJ in my eyes.

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 08:36 PM
Twist is what I say however you like. I'm saying because of what others say about Lebron makes me not like him. There's only so much bs that can constantly be shoved down your throat. Do you believe in god? Do you like god? There's no proof of god except what others say, yet it's the most believed figure of all time. Word of mouth is a strong tool.

Then hate the people that shove it down your throat, not the people they are talking about. That's unfair to that person.

Don't bring Christianity into this. This is a sports forum and I believe any debate about God isn't allowed here, even though I do have a lot to say about this topic.

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 08:38 PM
I don't like Lebron and company because of the teaming up. I just can't respect it. "In order to be the best - you have to beat the best". Lebron went another way and therefore will never measure up to MJ in my eyes.

Dwayne Wade and the Miami Heat most def were not the best. They were pretty bad, I believe.

So you dislike LeBron because he decided to play with his friends and did not do things the same way Michael Jordan did them.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2013, 08:39 PM
How can people love MJ so much yet hate Lebron more than Latrelle Sprewell, MWP, etc? Please be objective as possible. MJ was the best player to grace the game, but he's a terrible role model. From lying on a golf course about betting, having a in your face persona, fighting with Perdue and Cartwright, etc. Sprewell was arrogant with his last contract offer from the T-Wolves and choked his coach in practice. MWP assaulted a fan when he should've just asked security to escort a guy out instead of stooping to the level of a fan if he/she could be an instigator, he elbowed James Harden in the face, etc. Lebron literally left a team, had an on air special that raised money for charity, has not gotten into legal trouble or trouble within bars, attended a party that was thrown by the Heat, may speak too much on Twitter, etc. Lebron is not as bad as people make him out to be. Go beyond the flopping argument or the he cannot win on his own or take the last shot or he chokes. Please explain to me why MJ is a better role model on and off the court than Lebron?

as someone who experienced the entire Jordan era, a TON of people hated Jordan.

Wait about 20 years. LeBron will be endeared by most basketball fans. That is just how it works.

jerellh528
12-11-2013, 08:39 PM
Then hate the people that shove it down your throat, not the people they are talking about. That's unfair to that person.

Don't bring Christianity into this. This is a sports forum and I believe any debate about God isn't allowed here, even though I do have a lot to say about this topic.
Fair enough, but why hate friends and people who post here when I can hate someone who give zero ***** about what I think. It's harmless.

jerellh528
12-11-2013, 08:40 PM
as someone who experienced the entire Jordan era, a TON of people hated Jordan.

Wait about 20 years. LeBron will be endeared by most basketball fans. That is just how it works.
He's already endeared by most basketball fans. His hate level peaked in 2010 and lasted about 1/2-2 years.

Paul Jeffrey
12-11-2013, 08:43 PM
Fair enough, but why hate friends and people who post here when I can hate someone who give zero ***** about what I think. It's harmless.

Why hate anybody?

Yes it's harmless to that person because it's almost guaranteed they aren't reading this and even if they are they probably don't care.

Dade County
12-11-2013, 08:51 PM
hes just following orders tho:rolleyes:

lmao

torocan
12-11-2013, 08:57 PM
MJ was far from universally loved while he played. Lebron will face the same treatment until he's near retirement or he retires.

As for Lebron himself, I respect his skills as a player, it doesn't mean I have to respect the Man.

I just can't respect someone that...

... gets a "King" tattoo before he's accomplished anything.
... colludes to form a big 3 with some of the best players in the NBA as a way to steamroll a ring
... declares that he'll win 4, 5 or 6 championships before he's won a single ring
... holds a national press conference over a simple free agency decision
... didn't give his home team Cavaliers fair notice that he was leaving so that they could get *something* back in return when he left

Lebron is special as a player, but his "big 3" would have won anywhere. They could have gone to the Washington Wizards or the Charlotte Bobcats and won a ring.

And the way Lebron, Wade and Bosh undermined the Free Agency/Trade/Salary Cap system through colluding to form a big 3 undermines the competitive nature of the NBA. They basically eliminated the GM and Front Office management from the process of building a championship team.

Building a Championship team was always a combination of drafting, trading, free agency, hiring of good front office personnel and coaches, and building of strong organizations. It involved skill, luck and years of effort on the part of a franchise.

Lebron, Wade and Bosh took a shortcut. And because of that choice he will always have less respect in my eyes. He took a well defined playing field and tilted it in his own favor.

Compare that with Kobe who admittedly split from Shaq because he wanted to *prove* that he could win a championship WITHOUT Shaq. I may not like Kobe as a person, but in that aspect I respect him as a Man. He thought he was one of the greatest players in the NBA and he wanted to prove it to himself beyond doubt.

Kobe chose the harder road because it WAS hard.
Lebron chose the easy road. Only Lebron will ever know why.

Lebron's not a bad person for his choices, I just find it a lot harder to respect him for them.

FlashBolt
12-11-2013, 09:46 PM
Jordan punched Kerr in the face and people said it's cause he was tough like that. If LeBron or Kobe punches their teammate, they would be considered *******s.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2013, 09:51 PM
He's already endeared by most basketball fans. His hate level peaked in 2010 and lasted about 1/2-2 years.

true to some degree, because he finally got the monster monkey off his back, and won 2 rings while dominating.

What I meant is, when an all timer is active, he has WAAAAAAAY more haters than years later, when fans can reflect on their career in general.

Lets also not forget, modern internet, and information is completely different. Jordan was a huge dick. That stuff would have come out to the masses back then. It only came out after the opinions on him were settled to those who aren't hardcore fans.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2013, 09:53 PM
MJ was far from universally loved while he played. Lebron will face the same treatment until he's near retirement or he retires.

As for Lebron himself, I respect his skills as a player, it doesn't mean I have to respect the Man.

I just can't respect someone that...

... gets a "King" tattoo before he's accomplished anything.
... colludes to form a big 3 with some of the best players in the NBA as a way to steamroll a ring
... declares that he'll win 4, 5 or 6 championships before he's won a single ring
... holds a national press conference over a simple free agency decision
... didn't give his home team Cavaliers fair notice that he was leaving so that they could get *something* back in return when he left

Lebron is special as a player, but his "big 3" would have won anywhere. They could have gone to the Washington Wizards or the Charlotte Bobcats and won a ring.

And the way Lebron, Wade and Bosh undermined the Free Agency/Trade/Salary Cap system through colluding to form a big 3 undermines the competitive nature of the NBA. They basically eliminated the GM and Front Office management from the process of building a championship team.

Building a Championship team was always a combination of drafting, trading, free agency, hiring of good front office personnel and coaches, and building of strong organizations. It involved skill, luck and years of effort on the part of a franchise.

Lebron, Wade and Bosh took a shortcut. And because of that choice he will always have less respect in my eyes. He took a well defined playing field and tilted it in his own favor.

Compare that with Kobe who admittedly split from Shaq because he wanted to *prove* that he could win a championship WITHOUT Shaq. I may not like Kobe as a person, but in that aspect I respect him as a Man. He thought he was one of the greatest players in the NBA and he wanted to prove it to himself beyond doubt.

Kobe chose the harder road because it WAS hard.
Lebron chose the easy road. Only Lebron will ever know why.

Lebron's not a bad person for his choices, I just find it a lot harder to respect him for them.

hahahahahaha, what? Kobe choose what? He was gifted ring help the nanosecond he entered the league. Please dude.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2013, 09:54 PM
Jordan punched Kerr in the face and people said it's cause he was tough like that. If LeBron or Kobe punches their teammate, they would be considered *******s.

well, that falls in line with the pussification of this country...

IKnowHoops
12-11-2013, 10:17 PM
How can people love MJ so much yet hate Lebron more than Latrelle Sprewell, MWP, etc? Please be objective as possible. MJ was the best player to grace the game, but he's a terrible role model. From lying on a golf course about betting, having a in your face persona, fighting with Perdue and Cartwright, etc. Sprewell was arrogant with his last contract offer from the T-Wolves and choked his coach in practice. MWP assaulted a fan when he should've just asked security to escort a guy out instead of stooping to the level of a fan if he/she could be an instigator, he elbowed James Harden in the face, etc. Lebron literally left a team, had an on air special that raised money for charity, has not gotten into legal trouble or trouble within bars, attended a party that was thrown by the Heat, may speak too much on Twitter, etc. Lebron is not as bad as people make him out to be. Go beyond the flopping argument or the he cannot win on his own or take the last shot or he chokes. Please explain to me why MJ is a better role model on and off the court than Lebron?

While I agree with you to an extent, I for one only like or dislike players by there actions on the court. So I wouldn't judge Jordan or Lebron for anything they did off the court. In turn I only like players as players, I don't want to be there friend or anything. Short of Rape or Murder, I don't care what they are. Lebron could be the biggest prick in the world, like Mike, and I'd still be just as big of a fan. OJ is still one of the greatest RB to ever play the game, and I still am a fan on the football field. Michael Jackson Molested children, but he is still the greatest entertainer. And I still like Michael Jackson. Now both of these guys failed as human beings, but I'll let God judge them since he is the only one that knows all and sees all. I'll stick to judging there game and thats it.

All this being said, if Mike Jack was trying to make a move on my kid, I'd beat the life out of him, then I'd get in my car, turn on "Man in the mirror" and drive home.

Or if DMX jumped me, I'd get my homies and go looking for him all the while playing "The Ruff Ryders" as I look for him.

KnicksorBust
12-11-2013, 10:33 PM
Jordan won 6 rings with the team that drafted him.

LeBron left his hometown team to win his first ring.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2013, 10:34 PM
Jordan won 6 rings with the team that drafted him.

LeBron left his hometown team to win his first ring.

the simple retort? LeBron wasn't winning **** with Mike Brown and that front office. What did you expect?

Honestly, everyone has their individual right to hate a player for any reason they like. That shouldn't be held against them.

IKnowHoops
12-11-2013, 10:37 PM
well, that falls in line with the pussification of this country...

100% agree with you, but at the same time, could he of hit a less threatening individual? Not just in the NBA but the planet. Hitting Ker is closer to proving your a coward than a tough guy really. Hit Rodman, I bet he deserved it more than Kerr.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
12-11-2013, 10:51 PM
MJ was far from universally loved while he played. Lebron will face the same treatment until he's near retirement or he retires.

As for Lebron himself, I respect his skills as a player, it doesn't mean I have to respect the Man.

I just can't respect someone that...

... gets a "King" tattoo before he's accomplished anything.
... colludes to form a big 3 with some of the best players in the NBA as a way to steamroll a ring
... declares that he'll win 4, 5 or 6 championships before he's won a single ring
... holds a national press conference over a simple free agency decision
... didn't give his home team Cavaliers fair notice that he was leaving so that they could get *something* back in return when he left



The first reason is legit. All the others you posted though are reaching a bit.


... colludes to form a big 3 with some of the best players in the NBA as a way to steamroll a ring
Why should a player ever deny the best opportunity to win when they're getting paid about the same as every other team that's pursuing him in FA? I mean, the guy was an unrestricted free agent. He can go wherever he wants.


... declares that he'll win 4, 5 or 6 championships before he's won a single ring

You put literally any other player of his generation in that spot, and they would also say something along those lines. It was a pep rally, it would be dumb for him to say anything different.


... holds a national press conference over a simple free agency decision

Alright I'll probably give you this one too, but it was a pretty new, different, entertaining idea and lots of people did watch it and it also benefited the Boys and Girls club as well.


... didn't give his home team Cavaliers fair notice that he was leaving so that they could get *something* back in return when he left

LeBron doesn't owe Cleveland anything. He gave Cleveland 7 years to build a legitimate team around him and they would've gotten Amare 5 months before he became a FA if Dan Gilbert wasn't so stupid.

KnicksorBust
12-11-2013, 11:07 PM
Jordan won 6 rings with the team that drafted him.

LeBron left his hometown team to win his first ring.

the simple retort? LeBron wasn't winning **** with Mike Brown and that front office. What did you expect?

Honestly, everyone has their individual right to hate a player for any reason they like. That shouldn't be held against them.

Disagree. Lebron would have eventually won in Cleveland.

Gibby23
12-11-2013, 11:17 PM
hahahahahaha, what? Kobe choose what? He was gifted ring help the nanosecond he entered the league. Please dude.

How was he gifted a ring when he had a lot to do with it?

Hawkeye15
12-11-2013, 11:24 PM
Disagree. Lebron would have eventually won in Cleveland.

well, that simply doesn't matter, does it? Can't change the past.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2013, 11:25 PM
How was he gifted a ring when he had a lot to do with it?

ring "help". Missed a key word dude.

If Kobe, Magic, or Bird defenders literally ever bring it up that those guys had to fight through what LeBron did, they are delusional. They walked straight into chip help. That can't be disputed.

KnicksorBust
12-11-2013, 11:30 PM
Disagree. Lebron would have eventually won in Cleveland.

well, that simply doesn't matter, does it? Can't change the past.

Of course it matters. Why take the easy way and abandon your team when if you work hard enough you could bring a championship home?

Gibby23
12-11-2013, 11:50 PM
ring "help". Missed a key word dude.

If Kobe, Magic, or Bird defenders literally ever bring it up that those guys had to fight through what LeBron did, they are delusional. They walked straight into chip help. That can't be disputed.

True. Bron did have a great shot to get his ring if he would have stayed and that would have took his legend to another level. He did what he had to do, but that Cavs Lebron was a bad bad man.

Sly Guy
12-11-2013, 11:55 PM
Michael Jordan did have a lot of attention on him, but it's true that you had to wait to hear his ugly personality whereas in today's world you'd probably hear about it no later than a week after it occurred.

the funny thing is I'm sick and tired of MJ running his mouth from the sidelines nowadays...I had no idea what a prick he was when he was playing. I dislike LeBron for being that same prick, if I had known MJ was a prick I think I would have disliked him just as much.

That being said, I can respect both of them for their ability to play the game.

cmellofan15
12-12-2013, 12:49 AM
MJ was far from universally loved while he played. Lebron will face the same treatment until he's near retirement or he retires.

As for Lebron himself, I respect his skills as a player, it doesn't mean I have to respect the Man.

I just can't respect someone that...

... gets a "King" tattoo before he's accomplished anything.
... colludes to form a big 3 with some of the best players in the NBA as a way to steamroll a ring
... declares that he'll win 4, 5 or 6 championships before he's won a single ring
... holds a national press conference over a simple free agency decision
... didn't give his home team Cavaliers fair notice that he was leaving so that they could get *something* back in return when he left

Lebron is special as a player, but his "big 3" would have won anywhere. They could have gone to the Washington Wizards or the Charlotte Bobcats and won a ring.

And the way Lebron, Wade and Bosh undermined the Free Agency/Trade/Salary Cap system through colluding to form a big 3 undermines the competitive nature of the NBA. They basically eliminated the GM and Front Office management from the process of building a championship team.

Building a Championship team was always a combination of drafting, trading, free agency, hiring of good front office personnel and coaches, and building of strong organizations. It involved skill, luck and years of effort on the part of a franchise.

Lebron, Wade and Bosh took a shortcut. And because of that choice he will always have less respect in my eyes. He took a well defined playing field and tilted it in his own favor.

Compare that with Kobe who admittedly split from Shaq because he wanted to *prove* that he could win a championship WITHOUT Shaq. I may not like Kobe as a person, but in that aspect I respect him as a Man. He thought he was one of the greatest players in the NBA and he wanted to prove it to himself beyond doubt.

Kobe chose the harder road because it WAS hard.
Lebron chose the easy road. Only Lebron will ever know why.

Lebron's not a bad person for his choices, I just find it a lot harder to respect him for them.

Well...where do I start?

1. You can't respect a MAN because of how decides to go throughout his basketball career? It's not like he's having serious off the court issues and from what he shows off of the court he is a class act. Seems pretty petty and completely off base.

2. Can't respect someone who has a king tattoo? Sounds like half of the players in the NBA. Just wait until you find out what Amare Stoudemire has tattooed on him, he'll probably equate to Hitler in your eyes.

3. Countless number of players have stated they'll win rings. Not everyone does it in a stupid fashion like LeBron did so i will definitely give you that one.

4. The Decision raised like a millions dollars in charity and that was the first point made in the show. Outside of the highlights, random shots of fans, and the 5 second decision it was very clear it was a charitable event. The whole audience was little kids. Not too disappointed with him raising money for kids but if you are whatever.

5. Players leave without notice all of the time. Igoudala being the latest example with the Nuggets. It happens. Can't say I don't respect Igoudala because he obviously saw Golden State as a better situation to contend and eventually took less money to play for them. But yeah, he must not deserve respect....

6. And again like Hawkeye LeBron was not gifted a star studded cast like literally every other superstar. He was playing with absolute crap. He couldn't talk his way into getting an early trade like the ever so respectable Kobe to put himself in position to win. If you compare LeBrons Cavalier team to any other title contending team past or present then you'll understand why he left. From Boobie Gibson to JJ Hickson there wasn't really much to work with.

7. Kobe and Shaq's split has nothing to do with this situation. They were both absolute divas and they did equally dumb stuff to eventually split. Whether Kobe wanted to win by himself or not, he never did. Kobe has always had a great cast of players. It's not like he was saying "let's just keep this team of smush Parker and friends so I can win by myself", because he had no chance without his star studded cast.

Kobe did NOT choose a harder road. He was gifted the easy road and plenty of good players to go along with that.

LeBron was forced down the hard road and chose to leave because there was little effort put in to keep him in Cleveland and surround him with good players.

But whatever, seems like your reason for not respecting LeBron is very personal since the rationale isn't really there.

torocan
12-12-2013, 09:29 AM
Well...where do I start?

1. You can't respect a MAN because of how decides to go throughout his basketball career? It's not like he's having serious off the court issues and from what he shows off of the court he is a class act. Seems pretty petty and completely off base.

A person's choices in life are actions that speak of their character. Any person can talk about their values, it's how they live them that tell you the truth of them as human beings.


2. Can't respect someone who has a king tattoo? Sounds like half of the players in the NBA. Just wait until you find out what Amare Stoudemire has tattooed on him, he'll probably equate to Hitler in your eyes.

I don't *know* what Stat has tattoo'd on his body. Tattoo'ing "the king" on your body shows a humungous ego and level of conceit. It's not much different than tatto'ing "better than you" or "superior" on your body. It shows a lack of humility.


3. Countless number of players have stated they'll win rings. Not everyone does it in a stupid fashion like LeBron did so i will definitely give you that one.

Doing it privately is one thing, doing it publicly shows either a tremendous lack of judgement, or an ego of Hindinberg proportions.


4. The Decision raised like a millions dollars in charity and that was the first point made in the show. Outside of the highlights, random shots of fans, and the 5 second decision it was very clear it was a charitable event. The whole audience was little kids. Not too disappointed with him raising money for kids but if you are whatever.

There are thousands of ways to raise money for charity. All of them except for The Decision do NOT involve drawing attention to what is a routine contract signing. Want to raise money for charity? Do a telethon. Do a commercial/psa. Sponsor a marathon. Or donate money anonymously.

Some of the greatest philanthropists in the world do NOT want their names known and prefer the focus to be on the charity and not on themselves.

Surrounding your contract signing with a media circus *intentionally* and attempting to justify it as a way to raise money for charity is the flimsiest excuse to justify creating a media spotlight on yourself.

Do you think it's an accident that it was panned by as classless by most people? That Lebron himself later said it was a mistake? Does it strike you as odd that it never even *occurred* to him that it was a mistake while he was planning it?


5. Players leave without notice all of the time. Igoudala being the latest example with the Nuggets. It happens. Can't say I don't respect Igoudala because he obviously saw Golden State as a better situation to contend and eventually took less money to play for them. But yeah, he must not deserve respect....

Andre Iguodala was signed with the Nuggets for a grand total of ONE year. He was acquired in a Trade. He had no choice in the trade destination. He owed nothing to the Nuggets. Also, his Coach AND GM (George Karl and Masai Ujiri) had just left the Nuggets. He was in the position of re-upping with a team where he would be faced with the uncertainty of a coach and GM that he may or may not like.

Lebron James was drafted by the Cavaliers, his Home Town team and played for his entire career (7 years) there to that point. While Lebron did not choose to be drafted by his home town, he DID choose to re-sign his first contract with his home town. The Cavs spent 7 years investing in Lebron's development and working to construct a team to help him succeed.

While there he reached the Semi-finals 3x, the ECF twice, and the Finals 1x. They also brought in Shaq and Antawn Jamison in an attempt to help him succeed. While you can argue about how much help the Cavs brought in to help Lebron, they did attempt to bring him help.

I don't know about you, but if I'm at a job and I've got 7 years in, and I've got a close relationship with the Owner, I'm going to give them fair notice that I'm leaving simply as a sign of mutual respect. Steve Nash did it that way and is greatly respected for it.

And while Melo gets bashed for wanting to leave Denver and how much the Knicks gave up to get him, I have nothing for respect in that he made clear that he wanted out to the Ownership and told them where he wanted to go. Melo was clear and up front about his intentions to Ownership from early in the process.


6. And again like Hawkeye LeBron was not gifted a star studded cast like literally every other superstar. He was playing with absolute crap. He couldn't talk his way into getting an early trade like the ever so respectable Kobe to put himself in position to win. If you compare LeBrons Cavalier team to any other title contending team past or present then you'll understand why he left. From Boobie Gibson to JJ Hickson there wasn't really much to work with.

Lebron never requested a trade. He never made clear that he wanted out. He only stated his intent to enter free agency. And who knows what the Cavs roster would have *eventually* looked like had he stayed? It wasn't like the Cavs made Zero effort to add talent.


7. Kobe and Shaq's split has nothing to do with this situation. They were both absolute divas and they did equally dumb stuff to eventually split. Whether Kobe wanted to win by himself or not, he never did. Kobe has always had a great cast of players. It's not like he was saying "let's just keep this team of smush Parker and friends so I can win by myself", because he had no chance without his star studded cast.

Kobe did NOT choose a harder road. He was gifted the easy road and plenty of good players to go along with that.

This is what Kobe said...


"There was an interview that I heard Shaq do which he kind of threw down the challenge of me not being able to win without him," recalled Bryant. "After I read that, I said, 'Aw, that's it.' Some comparison that he made with me and Penny Hardaway, and once I read that, I said, 'You know what? I can't finish my career with people saying that. There's no way.'"

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7550968/los-angeles-lakers-kobe-bryant-talks-split-shaquille-oneal

Yes, Kobe has not won another ring. However, he chose the *harder* road to attempt to win a championship without Shaq because he wanted to Prove to himself and Others that he deserved more respect. Agree or disagree, that someone would intentionally choose a road that is a *harder* way to earn another championship in order to prove a point to oneself is something that I can respect.


LeBron was forced down the hard road and chose to leave because there was little effort put in to keep him in Cleveland and surround him with good players.

But whatever, seems like your reason for not respecting LeBron is very personal since the rationale isn't really there.

That you consider colluding with Bosh and Wade to put two of the top 5 players in the NBA at the time on the *same* team, where all 3 decide to take pay cuts simultaneously a "hard" road to a championship is utterly laughable.

The Cavs had a hard time surrounding Lebron with talent because it IS hard to get multiple stars on the same team. Free agency, trade timing, draft luck and salary caps means it is *always* hard to get multiple stars on the same team. It requires management to make good decisions as well as have luck.

That is, it's hard unless the Super Stars set it up themselves and decide to hook up during the Olympics. Lebron, Wade and Bosh took a short cut. It was obvious it was a short cut, and fans weren't the only ones to notice it.


"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry [Bird], called up Magic [Johnson] and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'" Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada...

"He'll never be Jordan," Barkley told 790 The Ticket in Miami earlier in the week. "This clearly takes him out of the conversation. He can win as much as he wants to.

"There would have been something honorable about staying in Cleveland and trying to win it as 'The Man' ... LeBron, if he would've in Cleveland, and if he could've got a championship there, it would have been over the top for his legacy, just one in Cleveland. No matter how many he wins in Miami, it clearly is Dwyane Wade's team."

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5391478


"There's going to be a certain level of cynicism [since James has gone to the Heat] because you have three players deciding, 'We're great, we love each other, and let's go kill all the other teams.' I'm not sure that's going to be good for the league," says Andrew Zimbalist, a sports economist at Smith College in Northampton, Mass...

But ultimately, others say, having three of the league's top stars on a "superteam" is far from ideal for a league whose bottom-tier teams struggle for recognition, success, and revenue.

“Stern and ESPN and ABC and Turner would prefer to have the stars spread out among several teams,” former CBS Sports chief Neal Pilson told Bloomberg news service. “You can’t just show Miami all the time, and certainly the TV carriers benefit when you have attractive stars and personalities on multiple teams."

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0709/LeBron-James-and-his-superteam-Player-collusion-or-OK

Lebron took the path of least resistance to a Championship team. And in so doing did severe damage to any attempt to maintain parity among NBA teams. He worked to built a stacked team along with Wade and Bosh, because none of them felt they could find a team or grow with their own teams to become legitimate Finals contenders.

While doing so, he didn't just shaft Toronto and Cleveland, but shafted 29 other teams in the NBA. Teams that spend decades building strong management teams and team cultures, that painstakingly plan free agency pursuits, trade moves and draft scouting.

His actions are the equivalent of saying, "It's hard to win a title and build a championship team when I'm on an even playing field, so I'm going to change the rules and make the playing field uneven, and screw what it does to anyone else."

If Lebron is the greatest player in the NBA, then he should be able to win a championship without stacking the deck. He should be able to do it the same way everyone else does... through either working to improve his own team, or moving to a team that is building the normal way.

Did Lebron take the easy way because he was impatient? Or because he doubted his ability to win? We'll never know because we'll never get to see those games.

Epic Lebron vs Wade battles? Heat vs Cavs, Cavs vs Raptors and Raptors vs Cavs play off battles will never happen because of the Big 3. Years of great games that as fans we'll never get to see because Lebron and Co. took them away from us because they wanted to a free ride to the Championship.

And for that, arguably the best player of our generation, I respect him less as a Man.

IKnowHoops
12-12-2013, 12:08 PM
^Nice quote by J.R. Smith

NYKnickFanatic
12-12-2013, 12:26 PM
^Nice quote by J.R. Smith

Real recognize real; RNS.

scissors
12-12-2013, 12:43 PM
Did I just go back in time 3 years?

MassoDio
12-12-2013, 01:36 PM
I don't hate LeBron because I don't know him to make that sort of strong judgement.

What I have seen and know OF LeBron, I don't really like or respect.

I don't like Jordan's personality either. I could care less if he is a gambler, which way more people care about than should, it is his money after all. If he wants to gamble his money, no one should give a ****. But Jordan is a dick. Although, as a kid, he was incredibly cool to me when he was in Phoenix to play the Suns. When Jordan retired after the 1998 championship, I was 21. I had grown up with him. I didn't care about him being an arrogant prick. I was a 21 year old kid. I was probably an arrogant prick as well. And I didn't have the money or the talent to be. As I got older, and began to learn life lessons, I began to understand why so many people hated Jordan. But I was able to separate what he did off the court, and what he was on the court. I respect his drive, determination, sheer will, incredible talent, and unmatched competitiveness. But I understand that he is an a-hole.

I respect how talented Kobe is, but I have never liked him.

As far as LeBron goes, there are many things that I can't stand about him, but I respect his talent. I don't think he will overtake Jordan as the best ever, but I think he CAN. He is an incredible talent and his career is not over. So my personal feelings about LeBron have nothing to do with me being a Bulls/Jordan fan who is afraid he is going to be better than Jordan. The truth is, in any sport, there will always be someone who comes along and challenges the greatest ever crown. That is the beauty of sports.

I don't like LeBron because I despise his arrogance. I don't like the "King" tattoo. I don't like the decision. I don't like how he and Wade openly mocked Dirk in front of a camera for having the flu. I don't like how he colluded with his friends to team up. I understand it, and I don't fault him for leaving Cleveland, that was his choice. It was the way he did it, and the choice he made, that I just don't respect. I don't hate him for it though.

And for all those who are using the excuse to give LeBron a pass for the decision show, that he raised money for charity. That is a bunch of ********. He raised 2 million dollars. There are 100 different ways that he could have done that for that charity that would not have been nothing more than a way to stroke his ego. He could have given that charity 2 million dollars from his new contract from the Heat. He did that special for one reason, and one reason only, to pacify his arrogance. I appreciate that money went to charity, that is ALWAYS needed. However, I don't respect famous people of any kind, who do something for charity just for the publicity. There are a ton of celebrities that just go out and help people without needing a camera crew with them.

And as far as him not owing the Cavs organization anything...that is true. But he could have let them know they were out of the running to sign him, so that they could let their fans know before this mockery titled the decision. He would have still been able to have the show, Cleveland and it's fans would have just not had to watch their hopes be smashed on live television. That would have been the honorable thing to do for the fans.

So in summation, I don't hate LeBron. I respect his talent as a basketball player. But I don't like or respect his decision making or arrogance off the court. And the same can be said for Wade in my eyes.

And the only reason I dislike the Heat as a team (on the court) is because they are better and in the way of my team.

ewing
12-12-2013, 02:13 PM
How can people love MJ so much yet hate Lebron more than Latrelle Sprewell, MWP, etc? Please be objective as possible. MJ was the best player to grace the game, but he's a terrible role model. From lying on a golf course about betting, having a in your face persona, fighting with Perdue and Cartwright, etc. Sprewell was arrogant with his last contract offer from the T-Wolves and choked his coach in practice. MWP assaulted a fan when he should've just asked security to escort a guy out instead of stooping to the level of a fan if he/she could be an instigator, he elbowed James Harden in the face, etc. Lebron literally left a team, had an on air special that raised money for charity, has not gotten into legal trouble or trouble within bars, attended a party that was thrown by the Heat, may speak too much on Twitter, etc. Lebron is not as bad as people make him out to be. Go beyond the flopping argument or the he cannot win on his own or take the last shot or he chokes. Please explain to me why MJ is a better role model on and off the court than Lebron?

i don't based who i root for on what i can gather about there overall moral character. LeBron, is the best player in the league. He plays for a team i don't root for. I don't find his team that much fun to watch. He seems like an extremely cheesy guy. Why do LeBron fans expect everyone else not only to see that their favorite is a great player but to "like" him to?

Big Zo
12-12-2013, 02:25 PM
When you get hated on this much, you're doing something very right. He needs to keep it up.

KniCks4LiFe
12-12-2013, 02:26 PM
B/c you always find irrational ways to defend your favorites.

While MJ was playing around the time the NBA had Jordan rules. He was a competitor that never looked for hand outs and always rose to the occasion. Pippen wasn't asked to come to Chicago. Chicago just got him.

What LeBron did [and it's his prerogative, but it was underhanded] was conspire wit 2 out of the top 10 players in the NBA to form a team at a destination of their choosing. A decision like that will never be looked at in a positive matter. It's basically like tanking and finding a cheat sheet to win a championship. [but that's his prerogative]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n0WvEM9Cz8

Big Zo
12-12-2013, 02:32 PM
A person's choices in life are actions that speak of their character. Any person can talk about their values, it's how they live them that tell you the truth of them as human beings.



I don't *know* what Stat has tattoo'd on his body. Tattoo'ing "the king" on your body shows a humungous ego and level of conceit. It's not much different than tatto'ing "better than you" or "superior" on your body. It shows a lack of humility.



Doing it privately is one thing, doing it publicly shows either a tremendous lack of judgement, or an ego of Hindinberg proportions.



There are thousands of ways to raise money for charity. All of them except for The Decision do NOT involve drawing attention to what is a routine contract signing. Want to raise money for charity? Do a telethon. Do a commercial/psa. Sponsor a marathon. Or donate money anonymously.

Some of the greatest philanthropists in the world do NOT want their names known and prefer the focus to be on the charity and not on themselves.

Surrounding your contract signing with a media circus *intentionally* and attempting to justify it as a way to raise money for charity is the flimsiest excuse to justify creating a media spotlight on yourself.

Do you think it's an accident that it was panned by as classless by most people? That Lebron himself later said it was a mistake? Does it strike you as odd that it never even *occurred* to him that it was a mistake while he was planning it?



Andre Iguodala was signed with the Nuggets for a grand total of ONE year. He was acquired in a Trade. He had no choice in the trade destination. He owed nothing to the Nuggets. Also, his Coach AND GM (George Karl and Masai Ujiri) had just left the Nuggets. He was in the position of re-upping with a team where he would be faced with the uncertainty of a coach and GM that he may or may not like.

Lebron James was drafted by the Cavaliers, his Home Town team and played for his entire career (7 years) there to that point. While Lebron did not choose to be drafted by his home town, he DID choose to re-sign his first contract with his home town. The Cavs spent 7 years investing in Lebron's development and working to construct a team to help him succeed.

While there he reached the Semi-finals 3x, the ECF twice, and the Finals 1x. They also brought in Shaq and Antawn Jamison in an attempt to help him succeed. While you can argue about how much help the Cavs brought in to help Lebron, they did attempt to bring him help.

I don't know about you, but if I'm at a job and I've got 7 years in, and I've got a close relationship with the Owner, I'm going to give them fair notice that I'm leaving simply as a sign of mutual respect. Steve Nash did it that way and is greatly respected for it.

And while Melo gets bashed for wanting to leave Denver and how much the Knicks gave up to get him, I have nothing for respect in that he made clear that he wanted out to the Ownership and told them where he wanted to go. Melo was clear and up front about his intentions to Ownership from early in the process.



Lebron never requested a trade. He never made clear that he wanted out. He only stated his intent to enter free agency. And who knows what the Cavs roster would have *eventually* looked like had he stayed? It wasn't like the Cavs made Zero effort to add talent.



This is what Kobe said...



http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7550968/los-angeles-lakers-kobe-bryant-talks-split-shaquille-oneal

Yes, Kobe has not won another ring. However, he chose the *harder* road to attempt to win a championship without Shaq because he wanted to Prove to himself and Others that he deserved more respect. Agree or disagree, that someone would intentionally choose a road that is a *harder* way to earn another championship in order to prove a point to oneself is something that I can respect.



That you consider colluding with Bosh and Wade to put two of the top 5 players in the NBA at the time on the *same* team, where all 3 decide to take pay cuts simultaneously a "hard" road to a championship is utterly laughable.

The Cavs had a hard time surrounding Lebron with talent because it IS hard to get multiple stars on the same team. Free agency, trade timing, draft luck and salary caps means it is *always* hard to get multiple stars on the same team. It requires management to make good decisions as well as have luck.

That is, it's hard unless the Super Stars set it up themselves and decide to hook up during the Olympics. Lebron, Wade and Bosh took a short cut. It was obvious it was a short cut, and fans weren't the only ones to notice it.



http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5391478



http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0709/LeBron-James-and-his-superteam-Player-collusion-or-OK

Lebron took the path of least resistance to a Championship team. And in so doing did severe damage to any attempt to maintain parity among NBA teams. He worked to built a stacked team along with Wade and Bosh, because none of them felt they could find a team or grow with their own teams to become legitimate Finals contenders.

While doing so, he didn't just shaft Toronto and Cleveland, but shafted 29 other teams in the NBA. Teams that spend decades building strong management teams and team cultures, that painstakingly plan free agency pursuits, trade moves and draft scouting.

His actions are the equivalent of saying, "It's hard to win a title and build a championship team when I'm on an even playing field, so I'm going to change the rules and make the playing field uneven, and screw what it does to anyone else."

If Lebron is the greatest player in the NBA, then he should be able to win a championship without stacking the deck. He should be able to do it the same way everyone else does... through either working to improve his own team, or moving to a team that is building the normal way.

Did Lebron take the easy way because he was impatient? Or because he doubted his ability to win? We'll never know because we'll never get to see those games.

Epic Lebron vs Wade battles? Heat vs Cavs, Cavs vs Raptors and Raptors vs Cavs play off battles will never happen because of the Big 3. Years of great games that as fans we'll never get to see because Lebron and Co. took them away from us because they wanted to a free ride to the Championship.

And for that, arguably the best player of our generation, I respect him less as a Man.

You just basically wrote a book about how you dislike someone because they chose to leave their team via free agency. I'm glad teams from Cleveland haven't won anything since 1964. The drought is well deserved.

ewing
12-12-2013, 02:49 PM
You just basically wrote a book about how you dislike someone because they chose to leave their team via free agency. I'm glad teams from Cleveland haven't won anything since 1964. The drought is well deserved.

I'm not surprised a Zo fan doesn't care how a player leaves his team, bails on a team, city, show no respect to the integrity of the process etc.

Big Zo
12-12-2013, 03:01 PM
I'm not surprised a Zo fan doesn't care how a player leaves his team, bails on a team, city, show no respect to the integrity of the process etc.

What does Alonzo Mourning have to do with this discussion? Because he didn't wanna play for a rebuilding team while he's out there risking his health with a bad kidney? The nerve of him!

ewing
12-12-2013, 03:15 PM
What does Alonzo Mourning have to do with this discussion? Because he didn't wanna play for a rebuilding team while he's out there risking his health with a bad kidney? The nerve of him!

Zo get to pick where he plays b/c he has one kidney. GTFO Btw, he bailed on the Nets after they took a risk on him b/c the team wasn't good enough for him and he didn't even travel to Tor when he was traded there. Zo was a douche just like Bron

alexander_37
12-12-2013, 03:48 PM
Every little thing is scrutinized now days. If MJ played today he would be one of the most hated people in sports. The gambling, cockiness, and just his general disposition. Lebron is a choir boy compared to MJ.

Don't get me wrong I love that kind of stuff other than gambling problems, but many people would hate it. He just never got the 24/7 exposure like Lebron does.

Big Zo
12-12-2013, 03:52 PM
Zo get to pick where he plays b/c he has one kidney. GTFO Btw, he bailed on the Nets after they took a risk on him b/c the team wasn't good enough for him and he didn't even travel to Tor when he was traded there. Zo was a douche just like Bron
Did any of them ever choke their coach like Sprewell did? I'm sure you didn't have a problem with that when he was a knick.

ewing
12-12-2013, 03:59 PM
Did any of them ever choke their coach like Sprewell did? I'm sure you didn't have a problem with that when he was a knick.

No and i would have wind up rooting for Bron if somehow he douched his way to NY. I'm a knick fan. Anything that makes them win makes me happy. I still think bailing on a team when you are under contract and acting like you should be allow to play where ever you want is a lot worse then getting in a fight with a coach.

Big Zo
12-12-2013, 04:41 PM
No and i wouldn't have wind up rooting for Bron if somehow he douched his way to NY. I'm a knick fan. Anything that makes them win makes me happy. I still think bailing on a team when you are under contract and acting like you should be allow to play where ever you want is a lot worse then getting in a fight with a coach.

You know damn well you were glued to the TV with your fingers crossed, hoping he'd say he was going to the Knicks that night. Stop kidding yourself. And I don't know what kinda world you live in when choking someone isn't as bad as leaving a team.

ewing
12-12-2013, 05:00 PM
You know damn well you were glued to the TV with your fingers crossed, hoping he'd say he was going to the Knicks that night. Stop kidding yourself. And I don't know what kinda world you live in when choking someone isn't as bad as leaving a team.


Sorry, see edit. I would have wound up rooting for Bron even though i don't like him.


Anyway, Zo willfully under minded the league, Spree got upset and acted stupid for a min. In my world the first is definitely worse

torocan
12-12-2013, 05:04 PM
You just basically wrote a book about how you dislike someone because they chose to leave their team via free agency. I'm glad teams from Cleveland haven't won anything since 1964. The drought is well deserved.

I'm not a Cleveland fan in any way, and never have been.

I just think that what he did was unethical. Not illegal, just unethical.

In his situation I would have never done it that way, no matter how many Championships you dangled in front of me. I'm either the best on the planet, or I'm not. I don't need to cheese my way to a ring to prove it, I'll earn it thank you very much.

And leaving in FA is fine, it's HOW you leave in FA that counts.

Paul Jeffrey
12-12-2013, 05:17 PM
I'm not a Cleveland fan in any way, and never have been.

I just think that what he did was unethical. Not illegal, just unethical.

In his situation I would have never done it that way, no matter how many Championships you dangled in front of me. I'm either the best on the planet, or I'm not. I don't need to cheese my way to a ring to prove it, I'll earn it thank you very much.

And leaving in FA is fine, it's HOW you leave in FA that counts.

How was it unethical?

Could he have done it differently? Sure. But it's not like he's out there saying "LOL CLEVELAND YOU SUCK".

The MEDIA wanted to have it nationally televised. The MEDIA wanted to hype of the decision. The MEDIA wanted to make it all dramatic. See a common theme here?

As a player, if the media comes up to you with this and says all the money made from TV ratings is going to donations for charity how can you really say no?

It's the fans who get butt-hurt and take it as "LeBron wanted to show the world how much he wanted to leave by nationally televising it"

Jamiecballer
12-12-2013, 08:43 PM
sorry i'm late to the party.

i think, and this is only my theory, that a lot of the Lebron haters are fans of Kobe. that's hardly news, right?

but why? here is one theory.

much of Kobe's appeal comes from the brash arrogance, the i'm the **** and i don't give a **** what you think attitude. there is a part of all of us that wishes we could act this way, and society has told us forever that the guys who ultimately get to the absolute top have to have this attitude to succeed.

so along comes this Lebron character, who is every bit as good if not better, and does it with a smile on his face. and that makes a lot of Kobe fans uncomfortable with themselves.

ewing
12-12-2013, 08:51 PM
or maybe Bron is just a cheesy dude that makes things look a little to easy to be as entertaining as a guy like Jordan

IndyRealist
12-12-2013, 10:02 PM
People hated MJ when he played as well. Sure there were a lot of Bulls jerseys floating around at the time, but not substantially more than there are Lebron jerseys now.

EL_MACHETE
12-12-2013, 10:20 PM
Just haters..

But what would happen if LeBron opt out and took his talent to Okc.?.
Then people would hate him even more lol

Take a paycut
Have Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka restructure their contracts and start a Super Dynasty :)

(I really doubt it would ever happen tho)

hidalgo
12-12-2013, 10:27 PM
I'm a huge MJ fan, he's my fav athlete of all time easily. I also like Lebron a lot, & think he's great for the NBA, & the best player in the game. I root for him. you can definitely be big fans of both guys, I know I am

ewing
12-13-2013, 12:57 AM
People hated MJ when he played as well. Sure there were a lot of Bulls jerseys floating around at the time, but not substantially more than there are Lebron jerseys now.

i was a die hard knick fan and hated Jordan. Most fans loved Michael though

nickdymez
12-13-2013, 03:06 PM
A person's choices in life are actions that speak of their character. Any person can talk about their values, it's how they live them that tell you the truth of them as human beings.



I don't *know* what Stat has tattoo'd on his body. Tattoo'ing "the king" on your body shows a humungous ego and level of conceit. It's not much different than tatto'ing "better than you" or "superior" on your body. It shows a lack of humility.



Doing it privately is one thing, doing it publicly shows either a tremendous lack of judgement, or an ego of Hindinberg proportions.



There are thousands of ways to raise money for charity. All of them except for The Decision do NOT involve drawing attention to what is a routine contract signing. Want to raise money for charity? Do a telethon. Do a commercial/psa. Sponsor a marathon. Or donate money anonymously.

Some of the greatest philanthropists in the world do NOT want their names known and prefer the focus to be on the charity and not on themselves.

Surrounding your contract signing with a media circus *intentionally* and attempting to justify it as a way to raise money for charity is the flimsiest excuse to justify creating a media spotlight on yourself.

Do you think it's an accident that it was panned by as classless by most people? That Lebron himself later said it was a mistake? Does it strike you as odd that it never even *occurred* to him that it was a mistake while he was planning it?



Andre Iguodala was signed with the Nuggets for a grand total of ONE year. He was acquired in a Trade. He had no choice in the trade destination. He owed nothing to the Nuggets. Also, his Coach AND GM (George Karl and Masai Ujiri) had just left the Nuggets. He was in the position of re-upping with a team where he would be faced with the uncertainty of a coach and GM that he may or may not like.

Lebron James was drafted by the Cavaliers, his Home Town team and played for his entire career (7 years) there to that point. While Lebron did not choose to be drafted by his home town, he DID choose to re-sign his first contract with his home town. The Cavs spent 7 years investing in Lebron's development and working to construct a team to help him succeed.

While there he reached the Semi-finals 3x, the ECF twice, and the Finals 1x. They also brought in Shaq and Antawn Jamison in an attempt to help him succeed. While you can argue about how much help the Cavs brought in to help Lebron, they did attempt to bring him help.

I don't know about you, but if I'm at a job and I've got 7 years in, and I've got a close relationship with the Owner, I'm going to give them fair notice that I'm leaving simply as a sign of mutual respect. Steve Nash did it that way and is greatly respected for it.

And while Melo gets bashed for wanting to leave Denver and how much the Knicks gave up to get him, I have nothing for respect in that he made clear that he wanted out to the Ownership and told them where he wanted to go. Melo was clear and up front about his intentions to Ownership from early in the process.



Lebron never requested a trade. He never made clear that he wanted out. He only stated his intent to enter free agency. And who knows what the Cavs roster would have *eventually* looked like had he stayed? It wasn't like the Cavs made Zero effort to add talent.



This is what Kobe said...



http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7550968/los-angeles-lakers-kobe-bryant-talks-split-shaquille-oneal

Yes, Kobe has not won another ring. However, he chose the *harder* road to attempt to win a championship without Shaq because he wanted to Prove to himself and Others that he deserved more respect. Agree or disagree, that someone would intentionally choose a road that is a *harder* way to earn another championship in order to prove a point to oneself is something that I can respect.



That you consider colluding with Bosh and Wade to put two of the top 5 players in the NBA at the time on the *same* team, where all 3 decide to take pay cuts simultaneously a "hard" road to a championship is utterly laughable.

The Cavs had a hard time surrounding Lebron with talent because it IS hard to get multiple stars on the same team. Free agency, trade timing, draft luck and salary caps means it is *always* hard to get multiple stars on the same team. It requires management to make good decisions as well as have luck.

That is, it's hard unless the Super Stars set it up themselves and decide to hook up during the Olympics. Lebron, Wade and Bosh took a short cut. It was obvious it was a short cut, and fans weren't the only ones to notice it.



http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5391478



http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0709/LeBron-James-and-his-superteam-Player-collusion-or-OK

Lebron took the path of least resistance to a Championship team. And in so doing did severe damage to any attempt to maintain parity among NBA teams. He worked to built a stacked team along with Wade and Bosh, because none of them felt they could find a team or grow with their own teams to become legitimate Finals contenders.

While doing so, he didn't just shaft Toronto and Cleveland, but shafted 29 other teams in the NBA. Teams that spend decades building strong management teams and team cultures, that painstakingly plan free agency pursuits, trade moves and draft scouting.

His actions are the equivalent of saying, "It's hard to win a title and build a championship team when I'm on an even playing field, so I'm going to change the rules and make the playing field uneven, and screw what it does to anyone else."

If Lebron is the greatest player in the NBA, then he should be able to win a championship without stacking the deck. He should be able to do it the same way everyone else does... through either working to improve his own team, or moving to a team that is building the normal way.

Did Lebron take the easy way because he was impatient? Or because he doubted his ability to win? We'll never know because we'll never get to see those games.

Epic Lebron vs Wade battles? Heat vs Cavs, Cavs vs Raptors and Raptors vs Cavs play off battles will never happen because of the Big 3. Years of great games that as fans we'll never get to see because Lebron and Co. took them away from us because they wanted to a free ride to the Championship.

And for that, arguably the best player of our generation, I respect him less as a Man.

This is a really good post

cmellofan15
12-13-2013, 05:43 PM
I don't hate LeBron because I don't know him to make that sort of strong judgement.

What I have seen and know OF LeBron, I don't really like or respect.

I don't like Jordan's personality either. I could care less if he is a gambler, which way more people care about than should, it is his money after all. If he wants to gamble his money, no one should give a ****. But Jordan is a dick. Although, as a kid, he was incredibly cool to me when he was in Phoenix to play the Suns. When Jordan retired after the 1998 championship, I was 21. I had grown up with him. I didn't care about him being an arrogant prick. I was a 21 year old kid. I was probably an arrogant prick as well. And I didn't have the money or the talent to be. As I got older, and began to learn life lessons, I began to understand why so many people hated Jordan. But I was able to separate what he did off the court, and what he was on the court. I respect his drive, determination, sheer will, incredible talent, and unmatched competitiveness. But I understand that he is an a-hole.

I respect how talented Kobe is, but I have never liked him.

As far as LeBron goes, there are many things that I can't stand about him, but I respect his talent. I don't think he will overtake Jordan as the best ever, but I think he CAN. He is an incredible talent and his career is not over. So my personal feelings about LeBron have nothing to do with me being a Bulls/Jordan fan who is afraid he is going to be better than Jordan. The truth is, in any sport, there will always be someone who comes along and challenges the greatest ever crown. That is the beauty of sports.

I don't like LeBron because I despise his arrogance. I don't like the "King" tattoo. I don't like the decision. I don't like how he and Wade openly mocked Dirk in front of a camera for having the flu. I don't like how he colluded with his friends to team up. I understand it, and I don't fault him for leaving Cleveland, that was his choice. It was the way he did it, and the choice he made, that I just don't respect. I don't hate him for it though.

And for all those who are using the excuse to give LeBron a pass for the decision show, that he raised money for charity. That is a bunch of ********. He raised 2 million dollars. There are 100 different ways that he could have done that for that charity that would not have been nothing more than a way to stroke his ego. He could have given that charity 2 million dollars from his new contract from the Heat. He did that special for one reason, and one reason only, to pacify his arrogance. I appreciate that money went to charity, that is ALWAYS needed. However, I don't respect famous people of any kind, who do something for charity just for the publicity. There are a ton of celebrities that just go out and help people without needing a camera crew with them.

And as far as him not owing the Cavs organization anything...that is true. But he could have let them know they were out of the running to sign him, so that they could let their fans know before this mockery titled the decision. He would have still been able to have the show, Cleveland and it's fans would have just not had to watch their hopes be smashed on live television. That would have been the honorable thing to do for the fans.

So in summation, I don't hate LeBron. I respect his talent as a basketball player. But I don't like or respect his decision making or arrogance off the court. And the same can be said for Wade in my eyes.

And the only reason I dislike the Heat as a team (on the court) is because they are better and in the way of my team.

You respect Jordan's drive and will to win and whatever but you can't respect Brons? LeBron is absolutely obsessed with basketball. The proof is in his game right now. You can't compare his improvements to many other athletes in any other sport which reflects his work ethic. People said he couldn't hit free throws, he worked on free throw shooting. People said he couldn't hit the midrange and 3pt shot, now shoots unreal percentages. He can stick any position and play any position on the court. How can you not respect that? Do you know many men who continually better themselves at what they do and improve themselves to damn near flawless in their field? And do you respect them? Arrogance off of the court is something that Kobe innovated for crying out loud. Everyone knows Kobe is arrogant and you either love it or hate it. How can you respect Kobe's arrogance but not Brons? LeBrons arrogance is him joining and recruiting people, Kobe's is pushing people out. You're picking a few instances to showcase how LeBron has made bad decisions off of the court. Kobe off of the court has been MUCH more controversial. And yeah you didn't like the decision. A stroke of his ego. Well we won't go into how athletes stroke their ego because there is a list way too long of instances. It happened and he apologized for it, but let's not respect apologies. And speaking of Cleveland, he owed no one in Cleveland anything. The organization did nothing for him and the fans were overly critical. I know, I live in ohio haha. But like Melo, he said absolutely nothing which leads anyone with a little bit of knowledge to realize he's gonna leave. If you don't sign an extension it's safe to assume you're leaving. They had plenty of opportunity for a trade when he didn't extend with them by the deadline. But my whole point is anything LeBron does is exaggerated and magnified to the point of annoyance because he is LeBron. A tattoo, a joke, any decision will be scrutinized because of who he is. Yes, LeBron will forever be criticized for joining the heat because it worked. Nobody cares about what Melo, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, shaq, Tim hardaway, Charles Barkley, Moses Malone etc. did for whatever reason. LeBron leaving was actually justified compared to any of these other situations considering where he came from and what he had to deal with.

And amare has black Jesus tattooed on him...

BKdoubleStacker
12-13-2013, 06:00 PM
Way to generalize like you always do

TheNumber37
12-13-2013, 06:09 PM
No one is hating on Lebron. Not this year.
Everyone's just not paying attention cause they know the ride is over. Pacers got this.

Pierzynski4Prez
12-13-2013, 06:26 PM
If social networking was as prevalent in the 90s, Jordan would've received just as much criticism. Get over it.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2013, 06:29 PM
I'm not a Cleveland fan in any way, and never have been.

I just think that what he did was unethical. Not illegal, just unethical.

In his situation I would have never done it that way, no matter how many Championships you dangled in front of me. I'm either the best on the planet, or I'm not. I don't need to cheese my way to a ring to prove it, I'll earn it thank you very much.

And leaving in FA is fine, it's HOW you leave in FA that counts.

how is fulfilling a professional contract, and then becoming an unrestricted free agent (that means unemployed), then signing a brand new professional contract, unethical?

Hawkeye15
12-13-2013, 06:32 PM
I'm not surprised a Zo fan doesn't care how a player leaves his team, bails on a team, city, show no respect to the integrity of the process etc.

what process? Free agency? Players moving teams happens all the time. Why does it matter what level the player is regarded to be on? Fact is, in modern sports (any of them), if you can't build a team around a young superstar, they are leaving. Shame on Cleveland for not anticipating it honestly.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2013, 06:34 PM
If social networking was as prevalent in the 90s, Jordan would've received just as much criticism. Get over it.

seriously this. And like I said, in 20 years, LeBron won't have near the haters he has endured. Hell, the number has dropped off a cliff since he won his first chip. It's human nature. We want the best to fail, unless they are on our team. Years later, we fondly look back on the greats in positive ways.

SteveZissou
12-13-2013, 06:36 PM
People just hate lebron FANS.
Especially prior to lebron winning and "validating" his all world talents with the actual pedigree.

His fan boys were so quick to declare him the best ever all the time that it made every other fan dislike him by association.

He's definitely been adored more since he's won a championship than vilified.

MassoDio
12-13-2013, 06:38 PM
You respect Jordan's drive and will to win and whatever but you can't respect Brons? LeBron is absolutely obsessed with basketball. The proof is in his game right now. You can't compare his improvements to many other athletes in any other sport which reflects his work ethic. People said he couldn't hit free throws, he worked on free throw shooting. People said he couldn't hit the midrange and 3pt shot, now shoots unreal percentages. He can stick any position and play any position on the court. How can you not respect that? Do you know many men who continually better themselves at what they do and improve themselves to damn near flawless in their field? And do you respect them? Arrogance off of the court is something that Kobe innovated for crying out loud. Everyone knows Kobe is arrogant and you either love it or hate it. How can you respect Kobe's arrogance but not Brons? LeBrons arrogance is him joining and recruiting people, Kobe's is pushing people out. You're picking a few instances to showcase how LeBron has made bad decisions off of the court. Kobe off of the court has been MUCH more controversial. And yeah you didn't like the decision. A stroke of his ego. Well we won't go into how athletes stroke their ego because there is a list way too long of instances. It happened and he apologized for it, but let's not respect apologies. And speaking of Cleveland, he owed no one in Cleveland anything. The organization did nothing for him and the fans were overly critical. I know, I live in ohio haha. But like Melo, he said absolutely nothing which leads anyone with a little bit of knowledge to realize he's gonna leave. If you don't sign an extension it's safe to assume you're leaving. They had plenty of opportunity for a trade when he didn't extend with them by the deadline. But my whole point is anything LeBron does is exaggerated and magnified to the point of annoyance because he is LeBron. A tattoo, a joke, any decision will be scrutinized because of who he is. Yes, LeBron will forever be criticized for joining the heat because it worked. Nobody cares about what Melo, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, shaq, Tim hardaway, Charles Barkley, Moses Malone etc. did for whatever reason. LeBron leaving was actually justified compared to any of these other situations considering where he came from and what he had to deal with.

And amare has black Jesus tattooed on him...

You might want to go back and read what I actually wrote because you pointed out some things that I supposedly do respect and some things that I supposedly don't respect.....that I never even said.

I said one line about Kobe for instance...and it was that I never liked him. So saying that I respect anything about him just proves you didn't read what I wrote...read parts of it that you didn't agree with...and didn't bother to read the rest.

I actually said that I respect LeBron's talent as a basketball player...again you didn't read very well.

My opinion about what he owed the Cleveland fans is MY OPINION...so I really don't care if you agree with it or not. I didn't say he owed the organization anything other than enough time before the program to let the fans know that they were out of the running. (I actually said that he didn't owe the organization anything.) But of course, that would have lowered ratings, so he couldn't do that. That is called courtesy. And he chose to be in a profession that has fans, and having fans leaves you open to criticism. Regardless of whether or not they were highly critical, they paid to see him constantly from the moment he was drafted. They bought merchandise. They supported him and loved him. HE could have done THE RIGHT thing, whether you believe he owed it to them or not.

But again, I said I respect his game. (multiple times) I never once said anything negative about his drive, work ethic, or otherwise. The only reason I mentioned it for Jordan is that I was explaining, again something you maybe could have derived had you read and tried to understand what I wrote, why I liked Jordan as a child/young man.

Another point that you made that had nothing to do with what I wrote...is about the hate for him because he joined Wade and Bosh. I didn't say I didn't like THAT he teamed up with them, but that he colluded to do so. (If a GM were to have talked to them during the Olympics to get him to join the team two years later, he would have been fined and draft picks would have been taken away from the team. That GM would have lost his job.)

Did I say anywhere in my post that I have respect for Amar'e? Yeah, I didn't think so. That's because I don't have any respect for him either. I live in Phoenix, I have seen first hand what a douchebag he is. So AGAIN...try not arguing something that does not equate and was not brought up, in the post you quoted.

jerellh528
12-13-2013, 06:45 PM
People just hate lebron FANS.
Especially prior to lebron winning and "validating" his all world talents with the actual pedigree.

His fan boys were so quick to declare him the best ever all the time that it made every other fan dislike him by association.

He's definitely been adored more since he's won a championship than vilified.

I can get on board with this, now that I think of it, I don't hate Lebron at all even though his game doesn't appeal to me. I hate his overboard fans.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2013, 06:50 PM
I can get on board with this, now that I think of it, I don't hate Lebron at all even though his game doesn't appeal to me. I hate his overboard fans.

it's interesting. Fan bases can absolutely make you hate a player, in any sport. As social networking has exploded, even more so. I mean, nothing wrong with it, like I said much earlier in this thread, everyone has a right to hate a player for any reason they like. No matter how trivial it may appear to another.

jerellh528
12-13-2013, 07:04 PM
it's interesting. Fan bases can absolutely make you hate a player, in any sport. As social networking has exploded, even more so. I mean, nothing wrong with it, like I said much earlier in this thread, everyone has a right to hate a player for any reason they like. No matter how trivial it may appear to another.

Absolutely agree with this. That's the thing with sports, it's not a touchy or controversial topic such as politics or religion where most opinions stem from a deep seeded or personal idea. Sports is just all about fun and entertainment and who an individual likes or dislikes can stem from anything, because the idea of watching grown men pass around a piece of leather in itself is trivial. But I still love sports.

Eagles710
12-13-2013, 07:17 PM
I agree with OP ... reason people hate LeBron .. is because it became to cool thing to do so .... but now a days , I actually think that's starting to fade

SteveZissou
12-13-2013, 07:43 PM
I agree with OP ... reason people hate LeBron .. is because it became to cool thing to do so .... but now a days , I actually think that's starting to fade

It was never the cool thing to do.

In comparative terms, if the nba stood for the "national booty association." Every other fan base would try to admire all the great booties in the world ( beyonce, vida guerra, Lisa Ann, literally ET AL ....those just popped off the top of my head. Insert your favorite)

Lebron fans would be the kim Kardashians fans of the "NBA". No matter who we'd bring up, they always says well Kim kardashian is the greatest ever...so close thread."

And we hate THOSE guys so much because it was so tired that we'd before forced to say that her *** is saggy as **** and loose, and she's ****ing sucks.

Yea it's kinda like that.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2013, 08:29 PM
Absolutely agree with this. That's the thing with sports, it's not a touchy or controversial topic such as politics or religion where most opinions stem from a deep seeded or personal idea. Sports is just all about fun and entertainment and who an individual likes or dislikes can stem from anything, because the idea of watching grown men pass around a piece of leather in itself is trivial. But I still love sports.

haha, totally agree.

LongIslandIcedZ
12-13-2013, 08:42 PM
I dont understand why people need to justify why they dont like someone.

I actually dont know what's worse, the people who legitimately hate Lebron, or the people who care so much that someone hates Lebron.

I dont mind Lebron, but the fact that everyone needs to prove why they dislike him is a joke.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2013, 08:56 PM
I dont understand why people need to justify why they dont like someone.

I actually dont know what's worse, the people who legitimately hate Lebron, or the people who care so much that someone hates Lebron.

I dont mind Lebron, but the fact that everyone needs to prove why they dislike him is a joke.

it really is. If you don't like a player, so what. As long as you don't become irrational about their basketball skill or game, and can still debate or discuss, it doesn't mean you are a hater, it simply means you don't like the dude. If you are irrational and your dislike clouds your mind completely, that is when you have a slight problem.