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View Full Version : Micheal Carter Williams , A Star ?



Eagles710
12-04-2013, 03:09 AM
Hey Guys .. Wanted to bring up the 76ers PG MCW ... He is avg almost 18 Ppg and 7 assist ... and has shown signs of being a real STAR at times ... trying to get an outsiders thoughts on him ... and not just my own homer opinion :)

5ass
12-04-2013, 03:36 AM
Way too early, i remember when jennings scored 55 points. I think he will be a star, but thats just my opinion.

Carbine15
12-04-2013, 03:44 AM
MCW is a star in the making, were witnessing it as he developes. Penny hardaway #2 with a little bit of magic johnson in him.

Eagles710
12-04-2013, 03:45 AM
Way too early, i remember when jennings scored 55 points. I think he will be a star, but thats just my opinion.

lmaoo .. I swear I thought about this a million times since MCW started to get good ... I was like , Please don't be Brandon Jennings

PacersForLife
12-04-2013, 03:51 AM
He's definitely got the potential.

Carbine15
12-04-2013, 03:55 AM
lmaoo .. I swear I thought about this a million times since MCW started to get good ... I was like , Please don't be Brandon Jennings

MCW and Jennings are two differant athletes, two differant personalities and size wise its not even close. MCW if his shots not falling with his size he can attack the paint and score over everybody, not to mention his defense is good, his passing is great and he rebounds. Jennings cant do any of those things.

SMH!
12-04-2013, 04:17 AM
Roy

JWorthy42
12-04-2013, 04:58 AM
I can see him turning into a Top 3 PG as early as within the next 2 seasons.

PhillyFaninLA
12-04-2013, 05:13 AM
He's got a coach that is known for developing young players on a team that was/is special and elite and had extremely well developed players....I think he's on the way but to early to say.

Chrisclover
12-04-2013, 05:32 AM
You may check out the 2k 14 updates. If he is rated over 80,then he can be tagged a Star caliber player. If he reaches 85,then he is an all Star.
I havent played it for a long time, and havent checked the updates. But I think MCW rated 75something, maybe 79 for the time being?
Hey Guys .. Wanted to bring up the 76ers PG MCW ... He is avg almost 18 Ppg and 7 assist ... and has shown signs of being a real STAR at times ... trying to get an outsiders thoughts on him ... and not just my own homer opinion :)

Chrisclover
12-04-2013, 05:41 AM
I enjoy his hair style, which is makes him look like a cool and fast guy. Back in high school,a few years ago, I saw someone posted his poster on the door,in which Jennings stood with Ellis, if I remember correctly.Yes, his rookie season was quite a surprise for us and gained him tons of fans. I have not paid too much attention to him, so I do not know what happened next. Now, it seems like he is just a solid starter, not a star
Way too early, i remember when jennings scored 55 points. I think he will be a star, but thats just my opinion.

Chrisclover
12-04-2013, 05:46 AM
Whats your criterion of top PG s? Assist rate? Per?
I can see him turning into a Top 3 PG as early as within the next 2 seasons.

Paul Jeffrey
12-04-2013, 06:02 AM
I can see him turning into a Top 3 PG as early as within the next 2 seasons.

There is almost no way on earth he will surpass Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Jrue Holiday, John Wall, Stephen Curry, Tony Parker, Damian Lillard, Rajon Rondo, or Ty Lawson in a matter of 2-3 years. I actually don't see him being better than any of those guys for the foreseeable future.

Deron Williams is a tricky one. If Deron Williams remains healthy, I'd add him to that list too but over the last 3 years he's had 1 half season of full health which was post AS break last year and he went bananas on the league.

barreleffact
12-04-2013, 06:06 AM
Depends. IMO he has the consistency of a John Wall. I have definitely NOT seen him play, but his numbers go up and down more than a Houston stripper. If he can get some consistency, he has potential, but I am going to leave it at that until mid season or maybe even next year to determine how he develops.

barreleffact
12-04-2013, 06:09 AM
There is almost no way on earth he will surpass Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Jrue Holiday, John Wall, Stephen Curry, Tony Parker, Damian Lillard, Rajon Rondo, or Ty Lawson in a matter of 2-3 years. I actually don't see him being better than any of those guys for the foreseeable future.

Deron Williams is a tricky one. If Deron Williams remains healthy, I'd add him to that list too but over the last 3 years he's had 1 half season of full health which was post AS break last year and he went bananas on the league.

This, but i find Lillard incredibly overrated as well. He didn't deserve that ROY last year IMO, but his team is killing so far, so impact> production I suppose. (not saying he doesn't produce at all ftr)

Paul Jeffrey
12-04-2013, 06:31 AM
This, but i find Lillard incredibly overrated as well. He didn't deserve that ROY last year IMO, but his team is killing so far, so impact> production I suppose. (not saying he doesn't produce at all ftr)

He's a little overrated, I wouldn't say incredibly.

MonroeFAN
12-04-2013, 07:10 AM
Way too early, i remember when jennings scored 55 points. I think he will be a star, but thats just my opinion.

So, Brandon Jennings is currently averaging 16 & 8, is near the top in a:to ratio, and is quickly becoming one of the most underrated players in the league. I wouldn't call him a star, but I certainly wouldn't bring him up to prove a point like that. He is a much different player than he was in Mil, and it's only been 18 games.

Paul Jeffrey
12-04-2013, 07:21 AM
So, Brandon Jennings is currently averaging 16 & 8, is near the top in a:to ratio, and is quickly becoming one of the most underrated players in the league. I wouldn't call him a star, but I certainly wouldn't bring him up to prove a point like that. He is a much different player than he was in Mil, and it's only been 18 games.

Jennings is most def underrated. He seems to have a reputation of somebody who just takes a lot of stupid shots, somebody like OJ Mayo or Monta Ellis.

I think John Wall is the most underrated player.

ACanadian
12-04-2013, 08:18 AM
I think the thing that surprises me the most is his steal numbers...

Ebbs
12-04-2013, 08:57 AM
What Shaun Livingston could've been. Super raw still

warfelg
12-04-2013, 09:13 AM
The fact that he has started for us since day one and isn't on the ASG ballot shows how big of a troll Stern is.

In all honesty, taking my fandom out of it, MCW has a great future, because even when his shot isn't falling he's still confident enough to take one when it's given to him. He walks that line between **** and confident better than any other rookie.

And as for that person that listed the PGs MCW has to overcome? Jrue? Really? That guy is overrated, made the ASG by default really. And by many advanced stats MCW is having a better rookie season than Jrue had in year 4 (thanks to whoever brought that up in the sixes forum). Rajon Rando isn't as well rounded as MCW, IMO.

AddiX
12-04-2013, 09:38 AM
MCW is on his way to being a star.

I never would of saw it while he was in college, most people didn't, including scouts. But his game in the NBA, is almost perfectly suited for what the NBA has become. The kid does it all.

Don't know now anyone can say he isn't on his way to being a star. This isn't a fluke he can really ball. And unlike a lot of young players who can ball, MCW isn't stupid, selfish, or plays with a ego, this kid really does what's neccisary to win.

WARRIORS@GR
12-04-2013, 09:47 AM
He can do everything.He just needs to fix his shot selection(go to the basket more,instead of long jumpers) and cut the turnovers.He is probably the most well-rounded PG in the league.

kduce
12-04-2013, 11:01 AM
I'm not surprised to hear all of the doubt and/or hate aimed at MCW since so many teams passed on him in the draft. The same thing happens when people bring up Drummond, even when he does great things people just want to talk about his flaws. I was actually rooting for the Pistons to grab MCW in the draft once I knew we wern't going to have a shot at Macklemore, but I don't know if he would have worked out as well here. He ended up on a team that wasn't supposed to really win many games and so hes been able to really just go out there and play hard without any pressure of "win or else!" and I think its been great for his game and for his confidence. I am excited to see him next year after the amazing draft ahead with another great player next to him... could be crazy!

Eagles710
12-04-2013, 12:55 PM
He can do everything.He just needs to fix his shot selection(go to the basket more,instead of long jumpers) and cut the turnovers.He is probably the most well-rounded PG in the league.

yeah , this Is pretty much were im at with him , More of a killer instinct inside, and not settle for jumpers, cause he can get to the rim well from what Ive been seeing

RipCity32
12-04-2013, 01:18 PM
I see him being a Rondo with better offense. I don't think he will be a superstar or anything but I could definitely see him being a all star.

blahblahyoutoo
12-04-2013, 01:19 PM
This, but i find Lillard incredibly overrated as well. He didn't deserve that ROY last year IMO, but his team is killing so far, so impact> production I suppose. (not saying he doesn't produce at all ftr)

who deserved it over lillard?

IndyRealist
12-04-2013, 01:20 PM
yeah , this Is pretty much were im at with him , More of a killer instinct inside, and not settle for jumpers, cause he can get to the rim well from what Ive been seeing

Is his shot selection poor, or is he a poor shooter? Because aside from low shooting percentages, he's a fantastic all-around player, which is absurd for a rookie.

JoeDirt05
12-04-2013, 01:34 PM
This, but i find Lillard incredibly overrated as well. He didn't deserve that ROY last year IMO, but his team is killing so far, so impact> production I suppose. (not saying he doesn't produce at all ftr)

He's a little overrated, I wouldn't say incredibly.

How is he overrated or didn't dersrve the Roy he is only the 3rd player in NBA history to score 1900 points and have 600 assists in his first 100 games in case you are wondering Oscar Robertson and lebron are the only others hard to be overrated when your hanging with company like that

D-Leethal
12-04-2013, 01:50 PM
Jennings is most def underrated. He seems to have a reputation of somebody who just takes a lot of stupid shots, somebody like OJ Mayo or Monta Ellis.

I think John Wall is the most underrated player.

If your not a hyper-efficient domino your not a good player on this forum. Circumstances don't matter. The more efficient scorer is always the better player to nearly everybody on this forum.

MonroeFAN
12-04-2013, 01:57 PM
I didn't mean to turn this into a topic about Jennings. Just a bit sick of the hate on him, his percentages are on the rise (as are his turnovers, needs to work through that) but he's a 16 & 8 point guard right now on a team that is starting to gel because of him. He should no longer be used as an example to show what can happen to rookies who exceed expectations early on and fizz out. He is who we thought he was, a young punk kid who means well, and a good talent that was stuck in a bad situation.

MCW definitely will be a star btw, IMO. I wanted him on the Pistons badly. Sorry for derailing once again, I'm done.

WARRIORS@GR
12-04-2013, 01:58 PM
Is his shot selection poor, or is he a poor shooter? Because aside from low shooting percentages, he's a fantastic all-around player, which is absurd for a rookie.
Shot selection is his problem right now.He is very big,and quick,I've seen him dominate whenever he tries driving to the basket,like the game yesterday.He just gets too excited and tries to hit those long jumpers too much.

Eagles710
12-04-2013, 01:59 PM
Is his shot selection poor, or is he a poor shooter? Because aside from low shooting percentages, he's a fantastic all-around player, which is absurd for a rookie.

yeah I guess you could say his shot selection is bad , needs to drive lane more... which im sure he will figure that out as he goes on in his career

tredigs
12-04-2013, 02:00 PM
So, Brandon Jennings is currently averaging 16 & 8, is near the top in a:to ratio, and is quickly becoming one of the most underrated players in the league. I wouldn't call him a star, but I certainly wouldn't bring him up to prove a point like that. He is a much different player than he was in Mil, and it's only been 18 games.

You're doing that thing where you're being a huge homer again...

Jennings is not a different player. He's averaging a slightly higher assist rate, along with a higher turnover rate. Nothing about him looks different. Same average PER, same subpar WS/48, same terrible chucking (15 attempts a night @ 48% TS%). He's an upgrade over Knight, that much you can be happy about. But let's not pretend that this kid has transformed himself.

As for MCW, he's a super unique and fun player. Gotta love his energy and ability to contribute all over. Any time you have a PG who can trace down into the block and swat a center, you've got something special. His shooting ability or lack there makes it so I have to temper expectations on his ceiling, but I'm personally pretty surprised/impressed that he's maintaining this high level of play. I'd probably already throw him close to the top half of points with top 5 PG potential.


Is his shot selection poor, or is he a poor shooter? Because aside from low shooting percentages, he's a fantastic all-around player, which is absurd for a rookie.
67% from the line (college too) indicates at the very least he's a poor shooter.

MonroeFAN
12-04-2013, 02:02 PM
Just keep saying that, we'll talk about it at the end of the season when he's averaging 15 & 10 on career high percentages. Watch him play. That's all, don't need to see the numbers. If this is how he's been playing his entire career, then he is an under-rated basketball player.

I wasn't being a huge homer in the line of the night topic irregardless. I didn't even vote for Drummond in the end (went KD). Your first post was misleading, I said it several times then, and you completely ignored me.

tredigs
12-04-2013, 02:12 PM
Just keep saying that, we'll talk about it at the end of the season when he's averaging 15 & 10 on career high percentages. Watch him play. That's all, don't need to see the numbers. If this is how he's been playing his entire career, then he is an under-rated basketball player.

I wasn't being a huge homer in the line of the night topic irregardless. I didn't even vote for Drummond in the end (went KD). Your first post was misleading, I said it several times then, and you completely ignored me.

Brandon Jennings career per-36: 17.6/3.5/6.1 +1.5 stl, 0.2 blk, 2.5 TO's. PER: 16.1. WS/48: 0.091. TS%: .497

Brandon Jennings on Detroit '13: 15.9/3.3/8.2 +1.5 stl, 0.1 blk, 3.3 TO's. PER: 16.2. WS/48: 0.074. TS%: .483

And at best the 3rd best player on a team with a losing record playing in the weakest conference in NBA History. Like we've been seeing lately, you're just a homer.

MonroeFAN
12-04-2013, 02:41 PM
Well I just got done saying I don't care what the numbers suggest. I realize that they are fact, but my entire argument has been that he is becoming a better player. You're taking numbers from the entire season, that started off in absolute disarray. My guess is you've watched us one time this season, and it was when we played your Warriors in the middle of one of the hardest 10 game starts to a season in NBA history. It was a brand new team that looked terrible collectively. They don't really look that bad any more, and he's played much better for us. I won't hang my hat on one game, but we went into Miami and beat them last night and he played well despite the turnovers in a big game.

Perhaps I've taken this argument a bit too far, I don't consider him to be a star. I do believe he is underrated on here however. There are people who suggest he's not a starting caliber point guard which I don't agree with. But that's not the argument we've been having, and because numbers are the end all here I can't really say much in my defense.

In my opinion, he will be a transformed player by the time the season is nearing completion and we are in the playoffs.

dwoyo
12-04-2013, 02:51 PM
Hey Guys .. Wanted to bring up the 76ers PG MCW ... He is avg almost 18 Ppg and 7 assist ... and has shown signs of being a real STAR at times ... trying to get an outsiders thoughts on him ... and not just my own homer opinion :)

Like many people are saying, it's way too early to tell. I was in fact not riding too high on MCW before the season cause I didn't know how his play at Syracuse would translate to the NBA. Plus there aren't many tall true point guards (they always end up turning to shooting guards)

With that being said, I'm really impressed with what he's done this season. He's easily turning into one of my favorite young players and in my book is the best rookie in the NBA.

kduce
12-04-2013, 02:54 PM
Well I just got done saying I don't care what the numbers suggest. I realize that they are fact, but my entire argument has been that he is becoming a better player. You're taking numbers from the entire season, that started off in absolute disarray. My guess is you've watched us one time this season, and it was when we played your Warriors in the middle of one of the hardest 10 game starts to a season in NBA history. It was a brand new team that looked terrible collectively. They don't really look that bad any more, and he's played much better for us. I won't hang my hat on one game, but we went into Miami and beat them last night and he played well despite the turnovers in a big game.

Perhaps I've taken this argument a bit too far, I don't consider him to be a star. I do believe he is underrated on here however. There are people who suggest he's not a starting caliber point guard which I don't agree with. But that's not the argument we've been having, and because numbers are the end all here I can't really say much in my defense.

In my opinion, he will be a transformed player by the time the season is nearing completion and we are in the playoffs.


Stop making good points you are just a homer. homer. homer. homer! lol. I understand stats are important, dont get me wrong, but they are not everything. I hate when people look up stat lines and throw them at somebody arguing a point about a team or player they aren't even watching. I haven't seen MCW play, but I have heard great things about him. I'm not going to simply pull up his stats and pretend that reading a few numbers in a row make me know a player enough where I actually argue about them when I don't even watch. That's just nonsense. I guess it would be better if guys like you and I were like the fair weather fans around here and decided to like Miami or LA then we wouldn't be the dreaded "homer" they speak of.

tredigs
12-04-2013, 03:16 PM
Well I just got done saying I don't care what the numbers suggest. I realize that they are fact, but my entire argument has been that he is becoming a better player. You're taking numbers from the entire season, that started off in absolute disarray. My guess is you've watched us one time this season, and it was when we played your Warriors in the middle of one of the hardest 10 game starts to a season in NBA history. It was a brand new team that looked terrible collectively. They don't really look that bad any more, and he's played much better for us. I won't hang my hat on one game, but we went into Miami and beat them last night and he played well despite the turnovers in a big game.

Perhaps I've taken this argument a bit too far, I don't consider him to be a star. I do believe he is underrated on here however. There are people who suggest he's not a starting caliber point guard which I don't agree with. But that's not the argument we've been having, and because numbers are the end all here I can't really say much in my defense.

In my opinion, he will be a transformed player by the time the season is nearing completion and we are in the playoffs.

Actually the Warriors game was one that I missed, but I've seen them five or six times this year, including yesterdays game. He was turning it over a ton, but at the least I don't remember him chucking for a change. There's truly nothing different about his game, save for having a few more teammates capable of turning his passes into assists. He's improved his playmaking year by year, and is an OK point, but he's nowhere near the hype that was suggested of him during his rookie year (where many considered him better than and having a higher ceiling than both Tyreke and Curry. I guess 1 for 2 ain't bad). And that's why a comment like that was made about him concerning MCW. I don't care what stretch of games you want to include or omit, the guy still has absolutely pitiful shot selection and it's the biggest knock on his game. You've probably grown too accustomed to Knight and are just in a honeymoon period seeing what the world is like outside of him, but let's not pretend like Jennings is going to miraculously become a top 5-10 point just because he's playing in your favorite city. I'll give you that he's no bust, and if people are saying that then it's fair to bring out your Pistons shield.

kduce
12-04-2013, 03:28 PM
Actually the Warriors game was one that I missed, but I've seen them five or six times this year, including yesterdays game. He was turning it over a ton, but at the least I don't remember him chucking for a change. There's truly nothing different about his game, save for having a few more teammates capable of turning his passes into assists. He's improved his playmaking year by year, and is an OK point, but he's nowhere near the hype that was suggested of him during his rookie year (where many considered him better than and having a higher ceiling than both Tyreke and Curry. I guess 1 for 2 ain't bad). And that's why a comment like that was made about him concerning MCW. I don't care what stretch of games you want to include or omit, the guy still has absolutely pitiful shot selection and it's the biggest knock on his game. You've probably grown too accustomed to Knight and are just in a honeymoon period seeing what the world is like outside of him, but let's not pretend like Jennings is going to miraculously become a top 5-10 point just because he's playing in your favorite city. I'll give you that he's no bust, and if people are saying that then it's fair to bring out your Pistons shield.

It's not really about him playing in my "favorite city" (I know you were not addressing that to me, I just want to give you another Detroiter's thoughts) it has to do with him being in a new environment. Yes, it is true that he is playing with some better players but there is more to it than that. He is in a new place with something to prove after all that hype about him happened fizzled out with his play. A lot of people were calling Billups a bust when he came to Detroit, but he just needed to be put in the right situation. Now, I'm not saying this is absolutely going to happen with Jennings, but I like what i see so far. I was actually mad when the sign and trade for him was announced, but he has me slowly coming around. I think it helps to be around guys like Cheeks and Billups who both had successful careers at point guard. Jennings is starting to see what can happen if he plays team ball and has calmed his chucking down quite a bit. (if only Josh Smith would learn to do that same). I might be wrong about him, but he has been distributing the ball pretty well and, unless he has to, he really has calmed down his shoot first mentality. There is still a lot of season left, but I feel like Jennings is taking a big step forward this year. Just not sure how far.

tredigs
12-04-2013, 03:35 PM
^Fair enough. I don't want to sidetrack the thread any more on BJ so I'll just leave it at that and I'll be sure to check out their next few games and see if I'm missing something. I really like watching these Pistons so it's not a tough chore.

The Ooh Child
12-04-2013, 03:39 PM
He is also second in the league in steals

NoahH
12-04-2013, 03:55 PM
This, but i find Lillard incredibly overrated as well. He didn't deserve that ROY last year IMO, but his team is killing so far, so impact> production I suppose. (not saying he doesn't produce at all ftr)

Who should have won RoY last year then? It's hard not to give a guy who averaged 19-6 RoY.

Chronz
12-04-2013, 04:13 PM
Is his shot selection poor, or is he a poor shooter? Because aside from low shooting percentages, he's a fantastic all-around player, which is absurd for a rookie.

yeah I guess you could say his shot selection is bad , needs to drive lane more... which im sure he will figure that out as he goes on in his career
Ur sure of it? Why so confident in the kid? Is he a smart kid off the court or something

Chronz
12-04-2013, 04:19 PM
This, but i find Lillard incredibly overrated as well. He didn't deserve that ROY last year IMO, but his team is killing so far, so impact> production I suppose. (not saying he doesn't produce at all ftr)

He's a little overrated, I wouldn't say incredibly.

How is he overrated or didn't dersrve the Roy he is only the 3rd player in NBA history to score 1900 points and have 600 assists in his first 100 games in case you are wondering Oscar Robertson and lebron are the only others hard to be overrated when your hanging with company like that
Lol
U just overrated the **** out of him by even suggesting hes hanging with that company based off those somewhat arbitrary markers

Chronz
12-04-2013, 04:25 PM
Well I just got done saying I don't care what the numbers suggest. I realize that they are fact, but my entire argument has been that he is becoming a better player. You're taking numbers from the entire season, that started off in absolute disarray. My guess is you've watched us one time this season, and it was when we played your Warriors in the middle of one of the hardest 10 game starts to a season in NBA history. It was a brand new team that looked terrible collectively. They don't really look that bad any more, and he's played much better for us. I won't hang my hat on one game, but we went into Miami and beat them last night and he played well despite the turnovers in a big game.

Perhaps I've taken this argument a bit too far, I don't consider him to be a star. I do believe he is underrated on here however. There are people who suggest he's not a starting caliber point guard which I don't agree with. But that's not the argument we've been having, and because numbers are the end all here I can't really say much in my defense.

In my opinion, he will be a transformed player by the time the season is nearing completion and we are in the playoffs.


Stop making good points you are just a homer. homer. homer. homer! lol. I understand stats are important, dont get me wrong, but they are not everything. I hate when people look up stat lines and throw them at somebody arguing a point about a team or player they aren't even watching. I haven't seen MCW play, but I have heard great things about him. I'm not going to simply pull up his stats and pretend that reading a few numbers in a row make me know a player enough where I actually argue about them when I don't even watch. That's just nonsense. I guess it would be better if guys like you and I were like the fair weather fans around here and decided to like Miami or LA then we wouldn't be the dreaded "homer" they speak of.
So you dont watch the games, don't see the point of mentioning stats/facts, but u "heard great things" is the sole reason for you to post? Great contribution . Stellar post

Chronz
12-04-2013, 04:28 PM
Actually the Warriors game was one that I missed, but I've seen them five or six times this year, including yesterdays game. He was turning it over a ton, but at the least I don't remember him chucking for a change. There's truly nothing different about his game, save for having a few more teammates capable of turning his passes into assists. He's improved his playmaking year by year, and is an OK point, but he's nowhere near the hype that was suggested of him during his rookie year (where many considered him better than and having a higher ceiling than both Tyreke and Curry. I guess 1 for 2 ain't bad). And that's why a comment like that was made about him concerning MCW. I don't care what stretch of games you want to include or omit, the guy still has absolutely pitiful shot selection and it's the biggest knock on his game. You've probably grown too accustomed to Knight and are just in a honeymoon period seeing what the world is like outside of him, but let's not pretend like Jennings is going to miraculously become a top 5-10 point just because he's playing in your favorite city. I'll give you that he's no bust, and if people are saying that then it's fair to bring out your Pistons shield.

It's not really about him playing in my "favorite city" (I know you were not addressing that to me, I just want to give you another Detroiter's thoughts) it has to do with him being in a new environment. Yes, it is true that he is playing with some better players but there is more to it than that. He is in a new place with something to prove after all that hype about him happened fizzled out with his play. A lot of people were calling Billups a bust when he came to Detroit, but he just needed to be put in the right situation. Now, I'm not saying this is absolutely going to happen with Jennings, but I like what i see so far. I was actually mad when the sign and trade for him was announced, but he has me slowly coming around. I think it helps to be around guys like Cheeks and Billups who both had successful careers at point guard. Jennings is starting to see what can happen if he plays team ball and has calmed his chucking down quite a bit. (if only Josh Smith would learn to do that same). I might be wrong about him, but he has been distributing the ball pretty well and, unless he has to, he really has calmed down his shoot first mentality. There is still a lot of season left, but I feel like Jennings is taking a big step forward this year. Just not sure how far.
But what made you come to his defense in this thread when his mentioning remains relevant here as a warning sign

Swashcuff
12-04-2013, 04:33 PM
As for MCW, he's a super unique and fun player. Gotta love his energy and ability to contribute all over. Any time you have a PG who can trace down into the block and swat a center, you've got something special. His shooting ability or lack there makes it so I have to temper expectations on his ceiling, but I'm personally pretty surprised/impressed that he's maintaining this high level of play. I'd probably already throw him close to the top half of points with top 5 PG potential.


67% from the line (college too) indicates at the very least he's a poor shooter.

Was interested in hearing your thoughts on him since I remember when he matched up against Curry you didn't speak very highly of him, that has such changed. I guess you were just a bit skeptical because of the type of early hype he received I mean its still very early but he's doing a pretty good job of sustaining a respectable level of play.

LeperMessiah
12-04-2013, 05:38 PM
He's the star of a tanking team.

tredigs
12-04-2013, 05:44 PM
Was interested in hearing your thoughts on him since I remember when he matched up against Curry you didn't speak very highly of him, that has such changed. I guess you were just a bit skeptical because of the type of early hype he received I mean its still very early but he's doing a pretty good job of sustaining a respectable level of play.

Exactly. And his decision making + shooting are still legitimate issues, but he just contributes in enough ways to overcome that and make him a really unique and + player. Definitely not afraid to admit that he's surprised me after a start that I was not sold on.

WES KOAST
12-04-2013, 06:12 PM
roy this year.
star next year.
superstar year after that.
mvp caliber year after that.

didn't know he was nba ready and this good.

BKLYNpigeon
12-04-2013, 06:33 PM
MCW is a star in the making... He just needs to improve his jumper, which will come, but he can really do it all with poise and maturity and its only been 20+ game in the NBA season and this is his rookie year. sky's the limit.

I dont think I have seen a 6'7" Point Guard with his skill set since Penny Haradaway.

kduce
12-04-2013, 06:48 PM
So you dont watch the games, don't see the point of mentioning stats/facts, but u "heard great things" is the sole reason for you to post? Great contribution . Stellar post

Not what I meant. My point is I will make a comment based on what I have HEARD and seen a player do in games or in highlights, HOWEVER... I wont argue the strength and weaknesses of a player that I have not watched myself in games after just looking at stat lines. The point I was trying to make was, while its human nature to draw conclusions based off of media and stats, it doesn't make you an expert on said player looking at these things alone.

kduce
12-04-2013, 06:50 PM
So you dont watch the games, don't see the point of mentioning stats/facts, but u "heard great things" is the sole reason for you to post? Great contribution . Stellar post

However, I see jumping to conclusions is something you are rather good at so perhaps I'm wasting my time. I am sorry if what I said wasn't clear... or perhaps you are just picking my words apart to make a pointless argument but whatever the case may be it is obvious that we got off on the wrong foot.

kduce
12-04-2013, 06:53 PM
But what made you come to his defense in this thread when his mentioning remains relevant here as a warning sign

Agreed. I wasn't really "coming to his defense" as I was never really a Jennings fan to begin with. It was more about expressing what we see here in Detroit with him because Monroefan's post just kept drawing the same "homer" statements and I was just offering another explanation. There are many things Jennings does that make me slap my forehead, but we are seeing less and less of those things as time goes on. Also, when he does make a mistake he recovers well from them and doesn't let it derail his entire game like sometimes can happen.

Chronz
12-04-2013, 07:42 PM
Not what I meant. My point is I will make a comment based on what I have HEARD and seen a player do in games or in highlights, HOWEVER... I wont argue the strength and weaknesses of a player that I have not watched myself in games after just looking at stat lines. The point I was trying to make was, while its human nature to draw conclusions based off of media and stats, it doesn't make you an expert on said player looking at these things alone.
What you have heard may be of less importance than measurable aspects of the game is my point. Your post reeks of a holier than thou concept, it comes off doubly rude because Im assuming you were speaking about Tre when you mentioned guys who "dont watch the game", as if we cant utilize both the quantifiable and the eyes. I really dont know what you consider an expert, but I have less respect for an argument that dismisses statistics on top of having seen very little. If you're simply relying on unverified/unsubstantiated second hand accounts of a players game, then you have nothing to stand on. Better off knowing what the kid is capable of producing than relying on what other people tell you. Obviously the best advantage is a combination of them all, just dont see why you would call any of them into question, much less place a higher level of importance on the least impressive account.

Chronz
12-04-2013, 07:44 PM
Agreed. I wasn't really "coming to his defense" as I was never really a Jennings fan to begin with. It was more about expressing what we see here in Detroit with him because Monroefan's post just kept drawing the same "homer" statements and I was just offering another explanation. There are many things Jennings does that make me slap my forehead, but we are seeing less and less of those things as time goes on. Also, when he does make a mistake he recovers well from them and doesn't let it derail his entire game like sometimes can happen.
There are better comparisons than Jennings, thats for sure.

MrfadeawayJB
12-04-2013, 07:56 PM
still too early to tell but he is on the right track, that's for sure

mrblisterdundee
12-04-2013, 08:03 PM
I think so. Michael Carter-Williams' PER and advanced stats, both offensively and defensively, are slightly better in his first season as Jrue Holiday's were in his fourth season. He's 6'5" and likes to steal the ball, as well. It's always helpful to have a lanky point guard who plays defense.

kduce
12-05-2013, 07:42 PM
Not what I meant. My point is I will make a comment based on what I have HEARD and seen a player do in games or in highlights, HOWEVER... I wont argue the strength and weaknesses of a player that I have not watched myself in games after just looking at stat lines. The point I was trying to make was, while its human nature to draw conclusions based off of media and stats, it doesn't make you an expert on said player looking at these things alone.
What you have heard may be of less importance than measurable aspects of the game is my point. Your post reeks of a holier than thou concept, it comes off doubly rude because Im assuming you were speaking about Tre when you mentioned guys who "dont watch the game", as if we cant utilize both the quantifiable and the eyes. I really dont know what you consider an expert, but I have less respect for an argument that dismisses statistics on top of having seen very little. If you're simply relying on unverified/unsubstantiated second hand accounts of a players game, then you have nothing to stand on. Better off knowing what the kid is capable of producing than relying on what other people tell you. Obviously the best advantage is a combination of them all, just dont see why you would call any of them into question, much less place a higher level of importance on the least impressive account.


Something tells me you're the kind of guy who reads your own posts out loud smiling at how smart u sound. I don't understand the point of being unnecessarily rude and and clearly ignoring what I'm telling you . Do stats Trump what somebody hears about a player in an argument? Of course. Nobody is arguing that. Nobody is arguing that Jennings career started great and fell off. Monroefan stated that Jennings career maybe turning around and of course that's debatable. I'm merely commented because he was being accused of simply being a homer. I chimed in because I have seen his play improve as well and mentioned that seeing him actually play and just looking at his stats are two different things. That was my point. You are the one that started applying my comments to situations that I never even mentioned. I brought up my lack of knowdge about MCW and that I would never argue that I know more about the kid than someone watching his actual games. Seeing his stats are much better to me and I'm not arguing the fact that they trump a highlight watcher. Just like I would expect someone watching all of a player's games to be more knowledgeable of how the players game has been than someone who just reads his stats. If you would have taken a breath and decided to not go the pompus *** route you would have seen then from the get go.I suppose that didn't matter, just posting with you superior intelligence was your goal rather then actually having a conversation... Ya know where you actually hear what the other person is saying?

fresh prince
12-05-2013, 07:50 PM
lmaoo .. I swear I thought about this a million times since MCW started to get good ... I was like , Please don't be Brandon Jennings

He is def not Jennings. MCW's game is already so refined. He doesnt have to score to beat you. I took a lot of heat for telling people he was the best player in the entire draft...but now people are asking me how I knew

JEDean89
12-05-2013, 08:00 PM
I looked at MCW as a high risk high reward player. how often do we see oversized pgs who can't cut it defensively against the Ty Lawsons, Chris Pauls and Tony Parkers? MCW is differently in that he is a defensive maniac and can run a team like a true pg. Plus he has that swag x factor where he stays poised in the clutch. He is a superstar in the making imo, and is almost guaranteed to be the best player in this draft. I think Philly hit the jackpot by turning Jrue into Nerlens and another top pick while drafting MCW simultaneously. Imagine 2 lottery picks on this team next year and a potentially solid big in Noel. They now need to manage what they do with Hawes, Turner and Young vary carefully because those guys should all have good to great value, what happens next is gonna make or break their future. Look at the Pelicans, drafting Davis was a can't miss but then drafting Rivers and then trading 2 lottery picks for Jrue is crazy to me. Philly has a chance to be really good. Adding a big like Vonleh or Randle + a 2 guard like Young, Harris or Selden and this team can be beasting in a few years.

BudGrant
12-05-2013, 08:08 PM
Been skim reading this whole thread and noticed Brandon Jennings being brought up. I don't even know what the context of it was but just wanted to give my two cents as a Bucks fan and say he was one of the worst things that ever happened to this franchise.

Alayla
12-06-2013, 01:43 AM
There is almost no way on earth he will surpass Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Jrue Holiday, John Wall, Stephen Curry, Tony Parker, Damian Lillard, Rajon Rondo, or Ty Lawson in a matter of 2-3 years. I actually don't see him being better than any of those guys for the foreseeable future.

Deron Williams is a tricky one. If Deron Williams remains healthy, I'd add him to that list too but over the last 3 years he's had 1 half season of full health which was post AS break last year and he went bananas on the league.

1. Jrue Is allready Debateable with MCW at this point assuming he keeps up this level of play (Doubt he does)
2. MCW>Wall so far
3. GSW Disargees with me but i think of curry as more of a 2 personally
4 Ty Lawson ? lol

Chronz
12-06-2013, 03:51 AM
Something tells me you're the kind of guy who reads your own posts out loud smiling at how smart u sound.
Dont care, plz try not to make debates personal around here.


I don't understand the point of being unnecessarily rude and and clearly ignoring what I'm telling you .
Says the guy who ignored my line about how you characterized those who used stats, in this instance I assumed you were talking about tre. Any comment this go around?


Do stats Trump what somebody hears about a player in an argument? Of course. Nobody is arguing that. Nobody is arguing that Jennings career started great and fell off. Monroefan stated that Jennings career maybe turning around and of course that's debatable. I'm merely commented because he was being accused of simply being a homer. I chimed in because I have seen his play improve as well and mentioned that seeing him actually play and just looking at his stats are two different things. That was my point. You are the one that started applying my comments to situations that I never even mentioned. I brought up my lack of knowdge about MCW and that I would never argue that I know more about the kid than someone watching his actual games.
Thats your prerogative, key word being your. Out of sheer curiosity, how have you seen his play improve, did you catch alot of him before he happened to join your team?


Seeing his stats are much better to me and I'm not arguing the fact that they trump a highlight watcher. Just like I would expect someone watching all of a player's games to be more knowledgeable of how the players game has been than someone who just reads his stats. If you would have taken a breath and decided to not go the pompus *** route you would have seen then from the get go.
Your post came off pompous to me. I required clarification and still require abit. Dont care how you take it, just how you respond. And one thing I try not to do is live life by rules, so I dont follow your line of thinking here.


I suppose that didn't matter, just posting with you superior intelligence was your goal rather then actually having a conversation... Ya know where you actually hear what the other person is saying?
So now that you have established the fact that you are trying to hear what Im saying, can you let me know of who you were characterizing.

Chronz
12-06-2013, 03:51 AM
1. Jrue Is allready Debateable with MCW at this point assuming he keeps up this level of play (Doubt he does)
2. MCW>Wall so far
3. GSW Disargees with me but i think of curry as more of a 2 personally
4 Ty Lawson ? lol

Wall has been better. Change your sig, Jrue was an awful All-Star

barreleffact
12-06-2013, 12:34 PM
Who should have won RoY last year then? It's hard not to give a guy who averaged 19-6 RoY.

Davis. Their per 36 min stats are markedly similar. They favor Davis slightly to me, but Lillard was no chump, but their advance stats: win shares, win shares/48min, PER all say Davis without question. I think it was just the injury that kept him from getting the award.

barreleffact
12-06-2013, 12:43 PM
How is he overrated or didn't dersrve the Roy he is only the 3rd player in NBA history to score 1900 points and have 600 assists in his first 100 games in case you are wondering Oscar Robertson and lebron are the only others hard to be overrated when your hanging with company like that

It always cracks me up reading stuff like this. You can come up with meaningless comparisons to say anything.


He's a little overrated, I wouldn't say incredibly.
That's fair.

NoahH
12-06-2013, 03:51 PM
Davis. Their per 36 min stats are markedly similar. They favor Davis slightly to me, but Lillard was no chump, but their advance stats: win shares, win shares/48min, PER all say Davis without question. I think it was just the injury that kept him from getting the award.

Yeah i can see that fo sure good points

kduce
12-06-2013, 03:57 PM
Dont care, plz try not to make debates personal around here.

I don't take debates personal, I only took offense because of the judgmental sarcasm thrown at me about my initial posts about Jennings when you were missing the entire point of what I was saying. My entire point had to do with knowing a player and not pretending to be an expert on him because of what you read or, in my case, saw in a few highlights on TV. I commented on MCW and expressed what I have liked from the limited exposure I have had to him, but would never try and tell a fan who watches him every night that he is a bust when I haven't even taken the time to watch him. The Jennings post was simply an extension of that and how comparing previous stats for FULL SEASONS with his stats 1/4 of the way threw this year and calling that proof (based on that alone) that he is the same old player seems foolish to me. Just my opinion tho.



Says the guy who ignored my line about how you characterized those who used stats, in this instance I assumed you were talking about tre. Any comment this go around?

Only to say I am human and have been known to misread or get distracted while I'm reading and start thinking about something else lol. My stat comments were purely related to Brandon Jennings and how his game is adjusting in Detroit. I feel, IMO, it is unfair to make assumptions on stats this early in the year especially as he is in a new environment playing on a team with, counting him, 8 new players and the adjustment period that it has taken them so far this season.



Thats your prerogative, key word being your. Out of sheer curiosity, how have you seen his play improve, did you catch alot of him before he happened to join your team?

Yes I have. Like I said, I was never a really big Jennings fan but my best friend always has been so I got stuck watching a lot of games. I felt like he took a lot of games off and at times you could see the laziness or inability to look for the open man and play team ball. Coming out of injury I saw a few games of that same Jennings and feared the absolute worse. Then, he started to change his game night by night. He still has his flaws but you can tell he also wants to win and instead of running down the floor and trying to shoot everything himself, he has been looking for his teammates and setting them up nicely. It's a small sample size so just as I tell you its not fair to judge his stats over this short amount of time then on that same token I can't declare that he is a new man based on the same time frame either. I can say that, so far, I like the way he is adjusting in Detroit. Now if only we could get Smoove to stop shooting stupid *** threes we might really have something!



Your post came off pompous to me. I required clarification and still require abit. Dont care how you take it, just how you respond. And one thing I try not to do is live life by rules, so I dont follow your line of thinking here.

Fair enough man. Yours came off the same way. Intent is a hard thing to prove and reading text without vocal inflection, facial expression, or even HOW it is said doesn't really make anything easier.



So now that you have established the fact that you are trying to hear what I'm saying, can you let me know of who you were characterizing.

To be honest i don't even know what it is you are talking about here. There has been a lot of back and forth so I kind of lost my place. I think that my original post, which wasn't even directed at you, had the lines blurred a a bit as I was talking about BOTH Jennings and his stats and the separate issue of MCW and my experience with him. I was attempting to point out that just because I read about MCW It doesn't mean that I know enough about his game to accurately and fairly get into an in depth debate about him. Just like I didn't think it would be fair that someone who has ONLY looked at Jenning's stats so far this year and compared them to last year to insist that he hasn't changed when someone who has watched him play every game this year says he has seen him improve. To each his own tho, I think that I just made a bad comparison to begin with or at least a very unclear one.

John Walls Era
12-06-2013, 04:09 PM
1. Jrue is allready debateable with mcw at this point assuming he keeps up this level of play (doubt he does)
2. mcw>wall so far
3. Gsw disargees with me but i think of curry as more of a 2 personally
4 ty lawson ? Lol

lol

Alayla
12-06-2013, 06:03 PM
Wall has been better. Change your sig, Jrue was an awful All-Star

1. Wall is in his 4th season is now? MCW is in his frist,
2. Lol Why is everyone all over me about a sig xDD excuse me if i dont actively change sigs every like half hour

Alayla
12-06-2013, 06:09 PM
lol

Okay im going to shut this up right now

A 4th Year player is 19 9 and 4 .416% FG 3.3 TO and 2.3 Steals
A 1st Year player is 18 7 and 6 .408% FG 3.7 TO and 3.1 Steals

I really shouldn't Need to Defend myself on this xDD

Once again though this is all assuming MCW keeps this up.

Carbine15
12-06-2013, 09:11 PM
Holy smokes cvballer got rid of the jrue holiday sig.

2-ONE-5
12-07-2013, 12:48 PM
Okay im going to shut this up right now

A 4th Year player is 19 9 and 4 .416% FG 3.3 TO and 2.3 Steals
A 1st Year player is 18 7 and 6 .408% FG 3.7 TO and 3.1 Steals

I really shouldn't Need to Defend myself on this xDD

Once again though this is all assuming MCW keeps this up.

lol Wall is so overrated, always has been.