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View Full Version : Michael Jordan to Kobe Bryant to Paul George. Is this the NBA's "Cycle" ?



P&GRealist
12-02-2013, 11:57 PM
Was reading this article. Of course everyone knows that Kobe mirrored his game after MJ's, and now George is trying to mirror his game after Kobe's, and his first step was adopting that #24 jersey.


Does Paul George have a chance to get to that Jordan-Kobe level one day? It seems he comes from that same breed and same line of killers.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/02/us-nba-pacers-george-idUSBRE9B10S720131202

goingfor28
12-02-2013, 11:58 PM
Yes

WES KOAST
12-03-2013, 12:02 AM
but lbj could be the greatest of all time when he retires

Htownballa1622
12-03-2013, 12:04 AM
No, that is not the NBA's cycle.

Reason being, Lebron was just completely ignored? Ha. No.

dcomerford
12-03-2013, 12:10 AM
in terms of SGs maybe? But i also have a hard time putting George's name next to these guys after about a year of very good basketball and 3 months of elite basketball

P&GRealist
12-03-2013, 12:14 AM
This is about guys with the similar style, similar skill set, similar frames of mind, with that killer instinct from the get-go.

LeBron plays a much completely different style of game with a complete different approach. This topic has absolutely zero to do with him.


The cycle is pertinent to Kobe's tweets a few wks ago in response to MJ saying that the only guy that could beat him one-on-one is Kobe, and that's because Kobe "stole all his moves".


Again, this has nothing to do with James.

naps
12-03-2013, 01:19 AM
PG might eventually be efficient like MJ. But that's about it.

As for comparing with Kobe, his career best TS% will eclipse 60% something Kobe has never done; His FG% is already better than best of Kobe. He also won't be a ballhog, which means he will keep his teammates engaged a lot more. I think he will be more like an all-round centerstone.

John Walls Era
12-03-2013, 01:20 AM
In terms of SG, sure... as long as PG doesn't turn into chuck mode Kobe (Clutch mode Kobe was before last championship). He could probably be a better defender than both (and thats saying a lot).

jerellh528
12-03-2013, 01:21 AM
How to I put someone on ignore? trying to place naps of my block list but dont know how.

AnthonyTyrael2
12-03-2013, 01:25 AM
In terms of SG, sure... as long as PG doesn't turn into chuck mode Kobe (Clutch mode Kobe was before last championship). He could probably be a better defender than both (and thats saying a lot).

Better than Kobe, sure.

All around game, PG needs to step up.

jerellh528
12-03-2013, 01:27 AM
It's understandable he'd mold his game after kobe's. When kobe came into the league pg was 5. Kobe was the NBA's greatest player during the time pg was coming into his own as a basketball player and athlete, it's only natural as I'm sure many other young players have as well

P&GRealist
12-03-2013, 01:30 AM
Paul George, the type of range he has now, man, neither Jordan and not even Kobe had that type of range and ability to hit the long ball. Kobe really became a consistent threat beyond the arch in his 6th or 7th season. George is already showing signs of that right now in his 4th yr. Michael was never really that great of a long ball shooter at all in his career.

jerellh528
12-03-2013, 01:31 AM
PG might eventually be efficient like MJ. But that's about it.

As for comparing with Kobe, his career best TS% will eclipse 60% something Kobe has never done; His FG% is already better than best of Kobe. He also won't be a ballhog, which means he will keep his teammates engaged a lot more. I think he will be more like an all-round centerstone.

How can you say that when his career ts% is much smaller than kobes , and MJ has only done it 4 times in his career. You just try everything to discredit kobe. Oh yeah also didnt know TS% is the end all

Jay_Dub
12-03-2013, 01:56 AM
I don't think they really compare. Kobe and Jordan had way better ball skills/quickness with the ball than PG. PG is has way better shooting, more size. I think they are completely different types of players. PG relies on others to get him open/get him the ball while Kobe and Jordan where better one on one players.

That's not to take anything away from PG ... he's a superstar and you could make a case for the 3rd best player behind Lebron and KD right now. Those 3 are definitely a level above everyone else in the league right now.

P&GRealist
12-03-2013, 02:01 AM
I don't think they really compare. Kobe and Jordan had way better ball skills/quickness with the ball than PG. PG is has way better shooting, more size. I think they are completely different types of players. PG relies on others to get him open/get him the ball while Kobe and Jordan where better one on one players.

That's not to take anything away from PG ... he's a superstar and you could make a case for the 3rd best player behind Lebron and KD right now. Those 3 are definitely a level above everyone else in the league right now.


PG hitting those well-contested dagger 3's in the defenders face is very Kobe-esque and Jordan-esque. Sure, he knocks down a lot of shots wide open, but dude can shoot in your face too and make it if you dared him.

Supreme LA
12-03-2013, 02:09 AM
I think PG is similar to those players in that he already possesses the sole fundamentals of ball handling and footwork. I think that is where he has modeled Kobe the most. He isn't the offense threat that Kobe or MJ was but he's still very young.

He also seems like he's got a perfect situation going in Indiana where he isn't requires to carry the offense load most games. Kobe and MJ have earned there stays as legends by carrying their teams to wins throughout their careers. PG will have to, at some point, carry his team through some very big challenges in the postseason to win a title and I think it's at that point people will really start to make serious comparisons.

Jay_Dub
12-03-2013, 02:09 AM
.

Jay_Dub
12-03-2013, 02:11 AM
PG hitting those well-contested dagger 3's in the defenders face is very Kobe-esque and Jordan-esque. Sure, he knocks down a lot of shots wide open, but dude can shoot in your face too and make it if you dared him.

I didn't say he couldn't hit a shot in someones face ... I said he doesn't have the ball skills/one on one skills of Kobe or Jordan. Most of those today were catch and shoot... doesn't mean they weren't amazing shots. Those shots he hit on Mathews were nuts. You don't see him taking the ball and making creative one on one moves to score lie Kobe and Jordan did. Different types of players in my opinion. You could say their mentalities are similar tho ... since they are all studs and love the big moment.

PartyPoison15
12-03-2013, 02:13 AM
As a SG? Sure. Maybe.. He's great, but its way to early. Lets see him beat the Heat, and get a title. Or 2. Or 6..

The absurdity of this thread.. I sear, I'm so glad I clicked on it. I needed a laugh.

TOO DAMN EARLY TO EVEN BRING THIS **** UP.

PacersForLife
12-03-2013, 03:49 AM
I think PG is similar to those players in that he already possesses the sole fundamentals of ball handling and footwork. I think that is where he has modeled Kobe the most. He isn't the offense threat that Kobe or MJ was but he's still very young.

He also seems like he's got a perfect situation going in Indiana where he isn't requires to carry the offense load most games. Kobe and MJ have earned there stays as legends by carrying their teams to wins throughout their careers. PG will have to, at some point, carry his team through some very big challenges in the postseason to win a title and I think it's at that point people will really start to make serious comparisons.

Agree with all of this. He doesn't need to carry the team, but he's starting to do it anyway.

Just want to throw it out there that I agree with the notion that he needs to win a title or two before he gets mentioned in the same breath as these guys.

naps
12-03-2013, 06:39 AM
How can you say that when his career ts% is much smaller than kobes , and MJ has only done it 4 times in his career. You just try everything to discredit kobe. Oh yeah also didnt know TS% is the end all

I thought you wanted to put me on ignore list in the previous page, then you quote me here? LMFAO! Be thankful that I educate you a lot that's why you have to quote me.

As for your confusion, PG is just starting to climb up to that superstar status. His TS% is 60% already and he is improving everyday leaps and bounds. So his projectile is pretty steep, Kobe has never sniffed 60% in his career. That's what I meant. Does it make sense to you now? (not that I expect you to understand it).

Guppyfighter
12-03-2013, 07:04 AM
Doubt Paul George's offensive output is going to be this way the whole year.

WARRIORS@GR
12-03-2013, 07:22 AM
I'm still not sold of him being at that level.He is now a legit superststar in this league,but too early to put him in the convo with Kobe,Lebron,and much more MJ.

AnthonyTyrael2
12-03-2013, 08:27 AM
I'm still not sold of him being at that level.He is now a legit superststar in this league,but too early to put him in the convo with Kobe,Lebron,and much more MJ.

Compared to Lebron and MJ he already has lost that race because of his first years. Also he will never peak as high as both of them. Plus ppl keep forgetting how good of defenders both are too. They achieved things on both ends of the floor, individually, which PG might never ever accomplish. Add the team success to it... okay it took both long enough to their first title but competition was something totally different back then, then it's now.

Who you've got seriously nowadays besides Heat, Spurs and after them maybe OKC and Indy with lots of luck? Spurs being that strong should be a slap in basketball's face. Respected, they are coached fantastically and have some players with both (over)age and (historically strong) quality but come on... then you've got the Heat... a formed superteam... great. It's all mediocre behind the peak. Not as in single players, there are a lot of younger guys growing, but in teams.

jerellh528
12-03-2013, 10:01 AM
I thought you wanted to put me on ignore list in the previous page, then you quote me here? LMFAO! Be thankful that I educate you a lot that's why you have to quote me.

As for your confusion, PG is just starting to climb up to that superstar status. His TS% is 60% already and he is improving everyday leaps and bounds. So his projectile is pretty steep, Kobe has never sniffed 60% in his career. That's what I meant. Does it make sense to you now? (not that I expect you to understand it).

Actually pg hasn't hit that ts% yet. Also why in the world did you choose that number? Because it's the one that you foresee pg attaining yet has just eluded Kobe? Why not choose 65%? Do you have to average that for a career to be successful in your eyes? Because lebrons career ts% is lower than .580 and guys like dirk, billups, durant, Nash, manu, Allen, korver, kevin martin, just to name a few all have higher career ts% than your precious Lebron . Does that mean they are all better and more efficient than him? You're a riot man, how old are you btw? Also yeah I still don't know how to put you on ignore or else I would.

holditdown
12-03-2013, 10:42 AM
I hate these types of threads. People have tried to play like Jordan. But no wing player has ever really played his style of basketball and come close to his dominance using that style.

koreancabbage
12-03-2013, 11:06 AM
PG is a great player. but he nowhere near the level of Kobe or Jordan yet.

If he keeps it up for 10+ years, ya I'll give him that but he still has to get his first ring before we even talk about being on the same level. And again, Indiana is one of the best teams out there and it helps when you also have two players who are:

1. a top 10 PF, David West
2. a top 5 Center, Hibbert

George is no slouch either as he is a top 5 player this year IMO. Indiana is a great team. George has a strong supporting cast.

Pacerlive
12-03-2013, 12:19 PM
In his second year people thought he would be no better than Trevor Ariza. In his third year it was Rudy Gay. Now? The skeptics are running out of good but not great players to compare him to so I take both extreme comparisons Kobe or Ariza with a grain of salt.

He still has a lot to prove but people are seeing what Pacer fans were excited about after his first year when you could see the potential all there and now he is starting to finish the self portrait for everyone else to see.

Last year the biggest knock on him was his midrange game and now it's a reliable part of his offensive game. The guy lacks very little now to becoming a great player for years to come.

koreancabbage
12-03-2013, 12:23 PM
In his second year people thought he would be no better than Trevor Ariza. In his third year it was Rudy Gay. Now? The skeptics are running out of good but not great players to compare him to so I take both extreme comparisons Kobe or Ariza with a grain of salt.

He still has a lot to prove but people are seeing what Pacer fans were excited about after his first year when you could see the potential all there and now he is starting to finish the self portrait for everyone else to see.

Last year the biggest knock on him was his midrange game and now it's a reliable part of his offensive game. The guy lacks very little now to becoming a great player for years to come.

this is true. he's a great player and coming into his own. lets get those championships. he has the big men and the cast around him to get to the promise land.

The ONLY thing that is making him unstoppable is experience.

Losoway
12-03-2013, 12:39 PM
i think pg will be better then kobe when its all said and done. he does everything young kobe did except ballhog

Ebbs
12-03-2013, 01:08 PM
The cycle in terms of talent, publicity, or success? They're all different.

nickdymez
12-03-2013, 01:18 PM
Kobe fans get so mad so easy. It's not his fault Lebron surpassed Kobe

I don't see PG as a Kobe type of player yet tbh

I wonder why this post is ok?

nickdymez
12-03-2013, 01:22 PM
i think pg will be better then kobe when its all said and done. he does everything young kobe did except ballhog

Or this one? It seems obvious thats its ok to bash the Lakers/Kobe, the mods here will do NOTHING. Probably send people "high five" smileys in private message.

To answer the ops question. I think Paul is the same breed of player as Kobe and MJ. He took a step back in my opinion in that game 7 against the Heat. But it will be interesting to see if he developes that "killer instinct" that Kobe and Jordan have.

Stunner
12-03-2013, 01:23 PM
I swear PG was playing the SF spot this year

nickdymez
12-03-2013, 01:25 PM
I thought you wanted to put me on ignore list in the previous page, then you quote me here? LMFAO! Be thankful that I educate you a lot that's why you have to quote me.

As for your confusion, PG is just starting to climb up to that superstar status. His TS% is 60% already and he is improving everyday leaps and bounds. So his projectile is pretty steep, Kobe has never sniffed 60% in his career. That's what I meant. Does it make sense to you now? (not that I expect you to understand it).

And this guy has never been banned. Yet he insults people in almost every post. But he hates Kobe and loves Lebron so he gets a pass. smh

phi2134
12-03-2013, 01:36 PM
I am in the vast minority that probably think this, but i feel like the NBA is already looking for its next big Superstar after Lebron. To me it feels like the Lebron phenomena is running its course, and it could be just the NBA, but things feel very stale. My opinion is that it goes Jordan, Kobe, Lebron and then ...... Definitely no one in the future that will match that talent. There are great players, but not like there have been.

goingfor28
12-03-2013, 01:36 PM
but lbj could be the greatest of all time when he retires

Looool he will never be > MJ

Chronz
12-03-2013, 01:38 PM
And this guy has never been banned. Yet he insults people in almost every post. But he hates Kobe and loves Lebron so he gets a pass. smh



What did he say that was so insulting?

You do realize insulting the Lakers/Kobe (if hes doing that at all) isn't a personal flame attack, right?

THE MTL
12-03-2013, 01:56 PM
Paul George is a different player in my opinion. I see him more as a Tracy mcgrady type....not kobe/jordan.

Supreme LA
12-03-2013, 01:58 PM
I thought you wanted to put me on ignore list in the previous page, then you quote me here? LMFAO! Be thankful that I educate you a lot that's why you have to quote me.

As for your confusion, PG is just starting to climb up to that superstar status. His TS% is 60% already and he is improving everyday leaps and bounds. So his projectile is pretty steep, Kobe has never sniffed 60% in his career. That's what I meant. Does it make sense to you now? (not that I expect you to understand it).

Oh no, the stat to end all debates! TS%!

Let's crown PG the second greatest shooting guard of all-time! He must be, since he has a higher TS% than Kobe.

FlashBolt
12-03-2013, 02:09 PM
I'm sorry but this is a huge disrespect to Kobe to even put PG at that discussion right now. Please, come back to me when PG has won anything. One good season doesn't validate or give a slight hint of his future to come. Paul George is 23 and hasn't done anything special yet. And for those saying LeBron, that doesn't even make sense. LeBron doesn't play like these three. He has a very special game that I don't think ANYONE can duplicate. You don't see 6"8 260 LBS shooting threes, posting up, quick as a PG, strong as a C, and the vision of an elite passing PG. Sorry, I don't see anyone in the future doing that. It is much easier to fall into the MJ>KOBE pedestal than the James pedestal.

TheIlladelph16
12-03-2013, 02:11 PM
I'm not sure I agree with the concept of this thread, so I will have to say no its not the cycle. I guess I don't see how PG and Kobe's style of play are even that similar other than they both play SG and have some pretty crazy footwork/handles. Paul's ascent into the upper echelon of players is quite exciting though, and I'm really looking forward to see what he can do long-term with that Pacers team. I think this might be the year they unseat the Heat.

Some (NOT all) Lakers fans need to be a little less sensitive when someone gets compared to their boy. Just because its suggested that a player might possibly be better some way down the line, doesn't mean that the poster is Kobe/Laker bashing. For the record, I think a PG comparison at this point is quite silly considering how young he is and how immense Kobe's resume is at this point, but its easy to see why people are extremely excited about the guy.

Another semi-related side note: The term "killer instinct" is the most overused BS descriptor in the NBA today. I'm not even sure that there is a consensus definition as to what that actually means.

Stinkyoutsider
12-03-2013, 02:19 PM
I'm not sure that George is in the cycle but he may be the closest guy out of all the star players in the league right now (I've seen the killer attitude in Wade some in his previous years).

I think he's got the physical tools and he's very skilled with lots of range to his game. But I don't think he has quite the personality like Jordan or Kobe? I'm not saying that George isn't competitve and wants to win because he does...

But Kobe and MJ wanted to erase you from the game. When you're at your lowest, they break your back and destroy you. True killer competitors imo. I'm not sure George is there yet but if he starts wanting to absolutely bury his competiton at all costs, I think he'll be a part of the cycle.

P&GRealist
12-03-2013, 05:46 PM
i think pg will be better then kobe when its all said and done. he does everything young kobe did except ballhog

Double post

P&GRealist
12-03-2013, 05:47 PM
i think pg will be better then kobe when its all said and done. he does everything young kobe did except ballhog

If Paul George ends up being better than Kobe Bryant, then as a Laker fan, there isn't anyone that would be more happier than me. That just means that the student learned well from his master and built upon the legacy of greatness. That's how it's should be.

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-03-2013, 06:06 PM
Kobe fans get so mad so easy. It's not his fault Lebron surpassed Kobe

I don't see PG as a Kobe type of player yet tbh

Since when did lebron surpass Kobe lol

LeGacy is Music
12-03-2013, 06:25 PM
I find it so funny how Every especially Jordan act like he reinvented the game of basketball like he didn't make his game after Dr. J

nickdymez
12-03-2013, 06:35 PM
I find it so funny how Every especially Jordan act like he reinvented the game of basketball like he didn't make his game after Dr. J

Mike may have modeled his game after the doctor, but he took it to another level. He definitely reinvinted the game.

static_inferno
12-03-2013, 06:37 PM
No one's trying to "forget" Lebron. In terms of playing style the progression is logical. MJ->Kobe->PG24.

RLundi
12-03-2013, 07:35 PM
Paul George is not in the discussion of either of these players. Overreaction thread to PG having a good game. He's a good player, maybe the best SG in the league right now but can we let this guy have at least an elite SEASON before crowning him in the mold of two top-10 players in NBA history?

NYSpirit1
12-03-2013, 09:11 PM
Wow, are we really talking about this right now after one All-Star appearance of averaging 17 points a game and a good first 18 games?

What is with jumping the gun? Let a player put together a body of work then have this discussion. Ridiculous.

P&GRealist
12-03-2013, 09:23 PM
Kobe and Paul George are actually pretty on par with how they started off their career before catapulting into superstardom. In fact, one can make an argument that George is starting off better than Kobe started.


Kobe's 1st yr: 15.5 Min, 41.7% FG and 7.6 PPG
George's 1st yr: 20.7 Min, 45.3% FG and 7.8 PPG

Kobe's 2nd yr: 26.0 Min, 42.8% FG and 15.4 PPG
George's 2nd yr: 29.7 Min, 44.0% FG and 12.1 PPG

Kobe's 3rd yr: 37.9 Min, 46.5% FG and 19.9 PPG
George's 3rd yr: 37.6 Min, 41.9% FG and 17.4 PPG

Kobe's 4th yr: 38.2 Min, 46.8% FG and 22.5 PPG
George's 4th yr so far: 36.3 Min, 47.6% FG and 24.9 PPG

ghettosean
12-03-2013, 09:27 PM
I thought you wanted to put me on ignore list in the previous page, then you quote me here? LMFAO! Be thankful that I educate you a lot that's why you have to quote me.

As for your confusion, PG is just starting to climb up to that superstar status. His TS% is 60% already and he is improving everyday leaps and bounds. So his projectile is pretty steep, Kobe has never sniffed 60% in his career. That's what I meant. Does it make sense to you now? (not that I expect you to understand it).

Actually pg hasn't hit that ts% yet. Also why in the world did you choose that number? Because it's the one that you foresee pg attaining yet has just eluded Kobe? Why not choose 65%? Do you have to average that for a career to be successful in your eyes? Because lebrons career ts% is lower than .580 and guys like dirk, billups, durant, Nash, manu, Allen, korver, kevin martin, just to name a few all have higher career ts% than your precious Lebron . Does that mean they are all better and more efficient than him? You're a riot man, how old are you btw? Also yeah I still don't know how to put you on ignore or else I would. LOL.... Dude please don't put him on ignore you schooled his arrogant *** good. Do PSD a favor and keep on schooling boy!!!

AnthonyTyrael2
12-04-2013, 01:58 AM
Paul George, the type of range he has now, man, neither Jordan and not even Kobe had that type of range and ability to hit the long ball. Kobe really became a consistent threat beyond the arch in his 6th or 7th season. George is already showing signs of that right now in his 4th yr. Michael was never really that great of a long ball shooter at all in his career.

Almost nobody used to have (range and ability) back then (since the line was brought late to the NBA with the begining of the 80's) because it wasn't needed without line. Basketball was played totally different then than nowadays.

Jordan did adapt his game, he always did, but never was that kind of shooter, just like you mentioned correctly. He developed and mid-rge game latter in his career. Enough to seal some titles but you saw the downgrade and lack in his Wizard years, when he couldn'r drive and get to the basket as often.

In general, european players (or basically non-north amercian players) used to be the far superior shooters back in time, before the "new era" clocked in. Since then, the 3 point shot became more and mor relevant.

Just look at the all time made and attempt list. The first real volume scorers were Reggie Miller and Denis Scott among some others. Most guys of that time are way down in that list because of the volume this shot is used today as well as over the past decade. It became more and more ridicoulous the past seasons since guys who can't shoot from the field, as Rubio for example, try to hit only those. LeBron imrpoved though, he made it from a three point chucker to a guy who hits them now regularly at a high rate.

mike_noodles
12-04-2013, 02:11 AM
I hate Lebron, but how is he not in this conversation?

mike_noodles
12-04-2013, 02:14 AM
Kobe and Paul George are actually pretty on par with how they started off their career before catapulting into superstardom. In fact, one can make an argument that George is starting off better than Kobe started.


Kobe's 1st yr: 15.5 Min, 41.7% FG and 7.6 PPG
George's 1st yr: 20.7 Min, 45.3% FG and 7.8 PPG

Kobe's 2nd yr: 26.0 Min, 42.8% FG and 15.4 PPG
George's 2nd yr: 29.7 Min, 44.0% FG and 12.1 PPG

Kobe's 3rd yr: 37.9 Min, 46.5% FG and 19.9 PPG
George's 3rd yr: 37.6 Min, 41.9% FG and 17.4 PPG

Kobe's 4th yr: 38.2 Min, 46.8% FG and 22.5 PPG
George's 4th yr so far: 36.3 Min, 47.6% FG and 24.9 PPG

One could or you could do it by age. Kobe was a skinny little boy at 18 coming in. It may not seem like much, but that's a big difference in physical maturity compared to a 20 year old Paul George..

AnthonyTyrael2
12-04-2013, 04:50 AM
One could or you could do it by age. Kobe was a skinny little boy at 18 coming in. It may not seem like much, but that's a big difference in physical maturity compared to a 20 year old Paul George..

Also think of who you got on your team to share the ball with while you're on court. It's a difference if you stick out on an average team as go to guy, the "facilitator" or if you're only second option at times.

JWorthy42
12-04-2013, 04:59 AM
PG might eventually be efficient like MJ. But that's about it.

As for comparing with Kobe, his career best TS% will eclipse 60% something Kobe has never done; His FG% is already better than best of Kobe. He also won't be a ballhog, which means he will keep his teammates engaged a lot more. I think he will be more like an all-round centerstone.

Paul George > Kobe ever was?

JWorthy42
12-04-2013, 05:02 AM
What did he say that was so insulting?

You do realize insulting the Lakers/Kobe (if hes doing that at all) isn't a personal flame attack, right?

Come on dude, you and I both know that all "naps" lives for is to bait and troll people. He never contributes to any thread in an informative way.

Chrisclover
12-04-2013, 11:59 AM
last playoff ,i always joked with my friend that if the Pacers the heat .then they would won the championship.
I expect PG to contribute muvh more in the future

P&GRealist
12-04-2013, 03:49 PM
I'm picking the Pacers to finally overcome the Heat this yr due to Paul George's ascension into superstardom and a top 10-12 player in the league.

PG will make his first finals this yr. (Although I think his Pacers fall to OKC in the finals).

RaiderLakersA's
12-04-2013, 05:30 PM
I'm not so sure about the comparisons, but I will say that I'm looking forward to seeing what the Pacers do if/when they make the playoffs. Wish we could press fast forward on the season.

Chronz
12-04-2013, 05:38 PM
Come on dude, you and I both know that all "naps" lives for is to bait and troll people. He never contributes to any thread in an informative way.

Still wouldn't mean every one of his posts is equally damning or worth reporting. Just curious, U really think Laker fans have it bad around here the way he this guy claims.

Chronz
12-04-2013, 05:40 PM
One could or you could do it by age. Kobe was a skinny little boy at 18 coming in. It may not seem like much, but that's a big difference in physical maturity compared to a 20 year old Paul George..

bingo

nickdymez
12-04-2013, 06:03 PM
Still wouldn't mean every one of his posts is equally damning or worth reporting. Just curious, U really think Laker fans have it bad around here the way he this guy claims.

Your not being fair guy. Every post pertaining to the Lakers and/or Kobe is immediately derailed by the same people. Now i understand that it happens to other players (Lebron, Melo, Rose), but lakers fans are treated with hate and discontent. I've seen 4 Lakers fans perma banned. Not to mention the constant bans that we get. I was banned for calling someone "dumb", yet the same people come in these threads (You included) and pretty much condesend everyone who doesnt agree with you, but are never banned. The mods here hate the lakers (Hawkeye for instance) and makes it known with their actions.

Guys like "naps, Jusinum, Raps" CONSTANTLY bait, troll, insult, etc and nothing happens to them at all...

amos1er
12-04-2013, 06:49 PM
but lbj could be the greatest of all time when he retires

Some people. :rolleyes: Lol. Lebron lost his chance to be compared to MJ when he choked away the 2011 finals. Jordan never needed 7 games to win in the finals... Jordan never lost in the finals. The end. It's over people... Lebron aint touching Jordan... Not even close.

koreancabbage
12-04-2013, 06:52 PM
Some people. :rolleyes: Lol. Lebron lost his chance to be compared to MJ when he choked away the 2011 finals. Jordan never needed 7 games to win in the finals... Jordan never lost in the finals. The end. It's over people... Lebron aint touching Jordan... Not even close.

yup, cuz those are the requirements for being the best player.:rolleyes:

amos1er
12-04-2013, 06:56 PM
http://blog.minitab.com/blog/the-statistics-game/lebron-vs-jordan-is-there-a-comparison-yet

Stop fooling yourselves Lebronites. Lebron has absolutely ZERO chance to ever be mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan.

RLundi
12-04-2013, 06:57 PM
Some people. :rolleyes: Lol. Lebron lost his chance to be compared to MJ when he choked away the 2011 finals. Jordan never needed 7 games to win in the finals... Jordan never lost in the finals. The end. It's over people... Lebron aint touching Jordan... Not even close.

Is Kobe close to Jordan? Because Kobe lost in the Finals twice, including once with Shaq. In that case, I suppose he's also never touching MJ, "not even close"?

amos1er
12-04-2013, 07:05 PM
http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2013/06/12/statbox-nba-finals-breakdown-please-stop-comparing-lebron-james-to-michael-jordan/

amos1er
12-04-2013, 07:08 PM
Is Kobe close to Jordan? Because Kobe lost in the Finals twice, including once with Shaq. In that case, I suppose he's also never touching MJ, "not even close"?

http://kentsterling.com/2013/06/12/lebron-james-vs-michael-jordan-in-finals-not-even-close/

amos1er
12-04-2013, 07:11 PM
http://swishnba.com/tag/lebron-vs-jordan-stats-2013/


LeBron James has just won his second straight NBA Championship and his second straight Finals MVP, and as always, the comparisons to Michael Jordan are at an all time high so let’s take a look at how these two player’s careers stack up against each other 10 years in respectively.

First of all why did I choose to compare the two 10 years in? Why not both at age 28 (the age that LeBron is now). The answer is that it would be unfair. LeBron entered the league at aged 18 and therefore by age 28 he would have played 10 seasons in the NBA. Jordan on the other hand entered the league at age 21 and therefore at age 28 he would have only played 7 years in the league, in fact at age 28 Jordan has played almost 200 games less than LeBron (589 compared to 765 for James).

MVPs:

MJ: 3 – finished 2nd twice and 3rd twice

LBJ: 4 – finished 2nd once and 3rd once

Championships:

MJ: 3 in 3 tries

LBJ: 2 in 4 tries

Finals MVPs:

MJ: 3 – MJ became the first person in NBA history to win three consecutive finals MVP awards, a feat later repeated by himself and achieved by Shaquille O’Neal

LBJ: 2

Scoring Titles:

MJ: 7

LBJ: 1

Steals Titles:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Rookie of the Year:

MJ: 1

LBJ: 1

Defensive player of the year:

MJ: 1 – The year MJ won DPOY he also led the NBA in steals per game, points per game and won MVP

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 2

Scoring Title and Steals Title in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title, MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Games Played

MJ: 684 (MJ missed the majority of his second season with a broken foot and retired in 1993 and came back for the last 17 games of the 1994-1995 season)

LBJ: 765

Minutes Played:

MJ: 26,510

LBJ: 30,374

Regular season averages:

Points per game:

MJ: 32.2

LBJ: 27.6

Assists per game:

MJ: 5.9

LBJ: 6.9

Rebounds per game:

MJ: 6.3

LBJ: 7.3

Steals per game:

MJ: 2.7

LBJ: 1.7

Blocks per game:

MJ: 1.0

LBJ: 0.8

FG%

MJ: 51.4%

LBJ: 49.0%

3PT%

MJ: 30.7%

LBJ: 33.7%

FT%

MJ: 84.5%

LBJ: 74.7%

NBA Finals Breakdown and Comparison to the Regular Season:

A player’s numbers in an NBA Final should increase / be inflated due to the fact that only a maximum of 7 games can be played compared to a maximum of 82 games in the regular season and due to the fact that a player should raise their level of play when they get to the NBA Finals (due to the stakes being higher)

LeBron James:

2007

NBA Final: – 22ppg, 7.0rpg, 6.8apg, 1.0spg, 0.5bpg, 35.6% FG, 20.0% 3PT, 69.0% FT

Regular Season: 27.3ppg, 6.7rpg, 6.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.7bpg, 47.6% FG, 31.9% 3PT, 69.8% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (FG%, 3PT% and FT%), steals and blocks, however it increased when it came to rebounding and passing.

2011

NBA Final: 17.8ppg, 7.2rpg, 6.8apg, 1.7spg, 0.5bpg, 47.8% FG, 32.1% 3PT, 60.0% FT

Regular Season: 26.7ppg, 7.5rpg, 7.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.6spg, 51.0% FG, 33.0% 3PT, 75.9% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, FT% and 3PT%, additionally, despite his passive nature in this series, his assists declined as well as his rebounds, and blocks. His steals increased. Defensively LeBron was poor this series as those who have watched the series will know that Jason Terry (who actually out-scored LBJ – 18.0ppg on 49.4%FG and 39.3% 3PT) was often able to score and get to the basket easily.

2012

NBA Final: 28.6ppg, 10.2rpg, 7.4apg, 1.6spg, 0.4bpg, 47.2% FG, 18.8% 3PT, 82.6% FT

Regular Season: 27.1, 7.9rpg, 6.2apg, 1.9spg, 0.8bpg, 53.1% FG, 36.2% 3PT, 77.1% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s points per game increased however his FG% fell by approximately 6%, his 3PT% also decreased by almost 20% however his FT shooting increased. His rebounding and passing increased however his steals per game and blocks per game decreased. Defensively LeBron was sound in this series although some might bring up that Durant (the opposing SF) shot 55% and averaged 30ppg for the finals.

2013

NBA Final: 25.3ppg, 10.9rpg, 7.0apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 44.7% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 79.5% FT

Regular Season: 26.8ppg, 8.0rpg, 7.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.9bpg, 56.5% FG, 40.6% 3PT, 75.3% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s scoring dropped in points per game, FG% and 3PT%. His steals and rebounding increased as well as FT shooting. However, his passing decreased slightly. In my opinion this was by far his best finals series defensively as he showed great versatility in being able to guard Tony Parker in critical moments of various games, most noticeably in towards the end of game 6 and 7. Those that have watched the series will know that scoring wise, LeBron under-performed significantly for the first 3 games (failing to score over 20 points in either of them), however, he redeemed himself in the remaining 4 games.

LeBron’s Finals averages:

(4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

Overall conclusion: When it comes to the NBA Finals LeBron’s scoring and overall efficiency has decreased. He has raised his level of play when it pertains to rebounding and has continued to be an effective passer. Overall defensively he has shown some inconsistency but has excelled in the later NBA Finals series’.

Michael Jordan:

1991

NBA Final: 31.2ppg, 6.6rpg, 11.4apg, 2.8spg, 1.4bpg, 55% FG, 50% 3PT, 84.8% FT

Regular Season: 31.5ppg (led the league), 6.0rpg, 5.5apg, 2.7spg, 1.0bpg, 53.9% FG, 31.2% 3PT, 85.1% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT) (his points per game decreased slightly), rebounding, passing (which doubled!), stealing, blocking and also defensively. Pippen did guard Magic for extended periods due to Jordan getting into foul trouble (games 1 and 2 of the series), however overall Jordan’s energy and effort on defence increased.

1992

NBA final: 35.8ppg, 4.8rpg, 6.5apg, 1.7spg, 0.3bpg, 52.6% FG, 42.9 3PT%, 89.1% FT

Regular Season: 30.1ppg (led the league), 6.4rpg, 6.1apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 51.9% FG, .270 3PT%, 83.2% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT – he set an NBA record 6 made three pointers in one half in game 1 of this series), passing and blocking. His steals and rebounding declined however those that have watched this series will know that this is probably Jordan’s best series defensively. He took Clyde Drexler (who finished second in MVP voting) out of his game offensively, so much so that Drexler’s shooting %’s fell from 47% FG and 33.7% 3PT in the regular season to 40.7% FG and 15.0% 3PT in the Finals.

1993

NBA final: 41.0ppg (NBA Finals record – which still stands today), 8.5rpg, 6.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.7bpg, 50.8% FG, 40.0% 3PT, 69.4% FT

Regular season: 32.6ppg (led the league), 6.7rpg, 5.5apg, 2.8spg (led the league), 0.7bpg, 49.5% FG, 35.2% 3PT, 83.7% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, 3PT% rebounding and passing. His level of play dropped when it came to steals and FT% and stayed the same when it came to blocks.

Overall Finals averages:

(3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

Overall conclusion: When it came to the NBA Finals Jordan raised his overall level of play both offensively and defensively. While MJ was a prolific scorer, he showed the ability to adapt or adjust his game to different situations and increase his passing and/or rebounding numbers while still scoring at an increased rate.

Conclusion:

Michael Jordan – (3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

LeBron James – (4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

In the NBA Finals after their first 10 years Jordan has higher: scoring, FG%, 3PT%, FT% and assist averages, as well as having played better, more consistent defence. LeBron has the advantage when it pertains to rebounding.

Jordan faced the: 5th, 3rd and 9th best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 5.6th best defence in the league.

LeBron faced the: 2nd, 8th, 11th and 3rd best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 6th best defence in the league.

Perimeter defenders and teams in Jordan’s era were allowed to defend much more physically due to being able to hand-check, the absence of the 3 second rule etc.

Additionally MJ matched up against Magic and Drexler in 91 and 92 respectively, both of whom finished second in MVP voting that year (due to MJ winning MVP). In 93 MJ faced (but didn’t match up against) Charles Barkley, who won MVP that year (MJ finished third behind Hakeem).

In 2007 Duncan finished 4th in MVP voting and Parker finished 15th, in 2011 Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting, in 2012 Durant finished 2nd (LeBron won MVP and matched up against Durant) and in 2013 Parker finished 6th in MVP voting.

Overall, after 10 years in the NBA, Jordan had dominated the league at a higher level than LeBron from both an offensive and defensive stand point and had raised his level of play in all areas on a more consistent basis in the NBA final better than LeBron had.

There it is Lebronites. So sorry to ruin your day but there is just no hope for your little hero in terms of being in the same sentence as Jordan. Just forget it.

amos1er
12-04-2013, 07:12 PM
Is Kobe close to Jordan? Because Kobe lost in the Finals twice, including once with Shaq. In that case, I suppose he's also never touching MJ, "not even close"?

Of course Kobe is never touching MJ. Who would be foolish enough to think otherwise. You don't see the Kobe fan base saying such foolish things. When it comes to outrageous claims and foolish statements, the Lebronites have the Kobephiles beat by a longshot.

amos1er
12-04-2013, 07:17 PM
Your not being fair guy. Every post pertaining to the Lakers and/or Kobe is immediately derailed by the same people. Now i understand that it happens to other players (Lebron, Melo, Rose), but lakers fans are treated with hate and discontent. I've seen 4 Lakers fans perma banned. Not to mention the constant bans that we get. I was banned for calling someone "dumb", yet the same people come in these threads (You included) and pretty much condesend everyone who doesnt agree with you, but are never banned. The mods here hate the lakers (Hawkeye for instance) and makes it known with their actions.

Guys like "naps, Jusinum, Raps" CONSTANTLY bait, troll, insult, etc and nothing happens to them at all...

Truth. The Laker/Kobe hate on the NBA forum is a joke. They constantly bash Kobe and overrate Lebron and when someone tries to come and educate them with some facts and evidence, they cry to the mods to either ban or lock the thread. There are mods on here with similar Kobe bashing and Lebron nutthugging agendas for sure. At least we don't try to act like we are above it all in our ivory towers while hypocritically pulling off the same ****.

amos1er
12-04-2013, 07:18 PM
Paul George > Kobe ever was?

Lol Some people. And they wonder why they have zero credibility.

koreancabbage
12-04-2013, 07:20 PM
http://blog.minitab.com/blog/the-statistics-game/lebron-vs-jordan-is-there-a-comparison-yet

Stop fooling yourselves Lebronites. Lebron has absolutely ZERO chance to ever be mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan.

basically its the same thing everyone says: So at this point in his career, LeBron doesn’t quite measure up to Michael Jordan. we all know that. but we're talking about the end of Lebron's career right now.

if Lebron ends up with more Rings than Jordan (big if too) you have to figure that is when the REAL argument starts. All the person said, that you quoted, is that he COULD.

Lets say Lebron wins 10 rings. is he not the GOAT? i mean its far fetched but you already have it blocked in your mind that no one can beat Jordan

hotdalton18
12-04-2013, 07:26 PM
LeBron has every stat better aside from ppg then Jordan and Kobe , best all around player ever and look at that shooting %

But for the question

First Kobe is not Jordan

But this is PG's first year as a star so we have a long way to go to see if he'll even be Kobe

amos1er
12-04-2013, 07:28 PM
basically its the same thing everyone says: So at this point in his career, LeBron doesn’t quite measure up to Michael Jordan. we all know that. but we're talking about the end of Lebron's career right now.

if Lebron ends up with more Rings than Jordan (big if too) you have to figure that is when the REAL argument starts. All the person said, that you quoted, is that he COULD.

Lets say Lebron wins 10 rings. is he not the GOAT? i mean its far fetched but you already have it blocked in your mind that no one can beat Jordan

I see what your saying, but The odds are astronomical. Not worth even mentioning unless the odds are less than 1/5. Currently its like a 1/1000000 chance.

Bruno
12-04-2013, 07:32 PM
Paul George is great. his advanced line is starting to match up consistently with what he brought during his peak moments last post-season. i like the comparison between him and Kobe, but he's got some Durant in him too. he's like a Kobe/Durant hybrid with his length.

koreancabbage
12-04-2013, 07:39 PM
I see what your saying, but The odds are astronomical. Not worth even mentioning unless the odds are less than 1/5. Currently its like a 1/1000000 chance.

i understand the odds are astronomical for Lebron but noone expected Lebron to be this good coming from his days in high school and then right into the NBA.

Jordan is still the best. no doubt.

Kobe is running out of time and its not really helping that he signed such a huge contract that basically hinders the team from signing great teammates to help Kobe win some more championships.Covers such a huge % of the NBA cap space for one player. still shows his enormous ego and that any free agent that comes to LA is going to second fiddle regardless of how good or bad Kobe is in 2-3 years.

Lebron has a lot of leeway right now but he still needs to win more rings

both are automatic 1st ballet HOF though no doubt.

amos1er
12-04-2013, 07:43 PM
i understand the odds are astronomical for Lebron but noone expected Lebron to be this good coming from his days in high school and then right into the NBA.

Jordan is still the best. no doubt.

Kobe is running out of time and its not really helping that he signed such a huge contract that basically hinders the team from signing great teammates to help Kobe win some more championships.Covers such a huge % of the NBA cap space for one player. still shows his enormous ego and that any free agent that comes to LA is going to second fiddle regardless of how good or bad Kobe is in 2-3 years.

Lebron has a lot of leeway right now but he still needs to win more rings

both are automatic 1st ballet HOF though no doubt.

I would agree with most of this. I really wish that Jim and Jeanie Buss took their time with the negotiations before handing him all that $$$ before he even played one game.

amos1er
12-04-2013, 07:44 PM
LeBron has every stat better aside from ppg then Jordan and Kobe , best all around player ever and look at that shooting %

But for the question

First Kobe is not Jordan

But this is PG's first year as a star so we have a long way to go to see if he'll even be Kobe

Lol... Perhaps you need to look again.

http://swishnba.com/tag/lebron-vs-jordan-stats-2013/


LeBron James has just won his second straight NBA Championship and his second straight Finals MVP, and as always, the comparisons to Michael Jordan are at an all time high so let’s take a look at how these two player’s careers stack up against each other 10 years in respectively.

First of all why did I choose to compare the two 10 years in? Why not both at age 28 (the age that LeBron is now). The answer is that it would be unfair. LeBron entered the league at aged 18 and therefore by age 28 he would have played 10 seasons in the NBA. Jordan on the other hand entered the league at age 21 and therefore at age 28 he would have only played 7 years in the league, in fact at age 28 Jordan has played almost 200 games less than LeBron (589 compared to 765 for James).

MVPs:

MJ: 3 – finished 2nd twice and 3rd twice

LBJ: 4 – finished 2nd once and 3rd once

Championships:

MJ: 3 in 3 tries

LBJ: 2 in 4 tries

Finals MVPs:

MJ: 3 – MJ became the first person in NBA history to win three consecutive finals MVP awards, a feat later repeated by himself and achieved by Shaquille O’Neal

LBJ: 2

Scoring Titles:

MJ: 7

LBJ: 1

Steals Titles:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Rookie of the Year:

MJ: 1

LBJ: 1

Defensive player of the year:

MJ: 1 – The year MJ won DPOY he also led the NBA in steals per game, points per game and won MVP

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 2

Scoring Title and Steals Title in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title, MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Games Played

MJ: 684 (MJ missed the majority of his second season with a broken foot and retired in 1993 and came back for the last 17 games of the 1994-1995 season)

LBJ: 765

Minutes Played:

MJ: 26,510

LBJ: 30,374

Regular season averages:

Points per game:

MJ: 32.2

LBJ: 27.6

Assists per game:

MJ: 5.9

LBJ: 6.9

Rebounds per game:

MJ: 6.3

LBJ: 7.3

Steals per game:

MJ: 2.7

LBJ: 1.7

Blocks per game:

MJ: 1.0

LBJ: 0.8

FG%

MJ: 51.4%

LBJ: 49.0%

3PT%

MJ: 30.7%

LBJ: 33.7%

FT%

MJ: 84.5%

LBJ: 74.7%

NBA Finals Breakdown and Comparison to the Regular Season:

A player’s numbers in an NBA Final should increase / be inflated due to the fact that only a maximum of 7 games can be played compared to a maximum of 82 games in the regular season and due to the fact that a player should raise their level of play when they get to the NBA Finals (due to the stakes being higher)

LeBron James:

2007

NBA Final: – 22ppg, 7.0rpg, 6.8apg, 1.0spg, 0.5bpg, 35.6% FG, 20.0% 3PT, 69.0% FT

Regular Season: 27.3ppg, 6.7rpg, 6.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.7bpg, 47.6% FG, 31.9% 3PT, 69.8% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (FG%, 3PT% and FT%), steals and blocks, however it increased when it came to rebounding and passing.

2011

NBA Final: 17.8ppg, 7.2rpg, 6.8apg, 1.7spg, 0.5bpg, 47.8% FG, 32.1% 3PT, 60.0% FT

Regular Season: 26.7ppg, 7.5rpg, 7.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.6spg, 51.0% FG, 33.0% 3PT, 75.9% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, FT% and 3PT%, additionally, despite his passive nature in this series, his assists declined as well as his rebounds, and blocks. His steals increased. Defensively LeBron was poor this series as those who have watched the series will know that Jason Terry (who actually out-scored LBJ – 18.0ppg on 49.4%FG and 39.3% 3PT) was often able to score and get to the basket easily.

2012

NBA Final: 28.6ppg, 10.2rpg, 7.4apg, 1.6spg, 0.4bpg, 47.2% FG, 18.8% 3PT, 82.6% FT

Regular Season: 27.1, 7.9rpg, 6.2apg, 1.9spg, 0.8bpg, 53.1% FG, 36.2% 3PT, 77.1% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s points per game increased however his FG% fell by approximately 6%, his 3PT% also decreased by almost 20% however his FT shooting increased. His rebounding and passing increased however his steals per game and blocks per game decreased. Defensively LeBron was sound in this series although some might bring up that Durant (the opposing SF) shot 55% and averaged 30ppg for the finals.

2013

NBA Final: 25.3ppg, 10.9rpg, 7.0apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 44.7% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 79.5% FT

Regular Season: 26.8ppg, 8.0rpg, 7.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.9bpg, 56.5% FG, 40.6% 3PT, 75.3% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s scoring dropped in points per game, FG% and 3PT%. His steals and rebounding increased as well as FT shooting. However, his passing decreased slightly. In my opinion this was by far his best finals series defensively as he showed great versatility in being able to guard Tony Parker in critical moments of various games, most noticeably in towards the end of game 6 and 7. Those that have watched the series will know that scoring wise, LeBron under-performed significantly for the first 3 games (failing to score over 20 points in either of them), however, he redeemed himself in the remaining 4 games.

LeBron’s Finals averages:

(4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

Overall conclusion: When it comes to the NBA Finals LeBron’s scoring and overall efficiency has decreased. He has raised his level of play when it pertains to rebounding and has continued to be an effective passer. Overall defensively he has shown some inconsistency but has excelled in the later NBA Finals series’.

Michael Jordan:

1991

NBA Final: 31.2ppg, 6.6rpg, 11.4apg, 2.8spg, 1.4bpg, 55% FG, 50% 3PT, 84.8% FT

Regular Season: 31.5ppg (led the league), 6.0rpg, 5.5apg, 2.7spg, 1.0bpg, 53.9% FG, 31.2% 3PT, 85.1% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT) (his points per game decreased slightly), rebounding, passing (which doubled!), stealing, blocking and also defensively. Pippen did guard Magic for extended periods due to Jordan getting into foul trouble (games 1 and 2 of the series), however overall Jordan’s energy and effort on defence increased.

1992

NBA final: 35.8ppg, 4.8rpg, 6.5apg, 1.7spg, 0.3bpg, 52.6% FG, 42.9 3PT%, 89.1% FT

Regular Season: 30.1ppg (led the league), 6.4rpg, 6.1apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 51.9% FG, .270 3PT%, 83.2% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT – he set an NBA record 6 made three pointers in one half in game 1 of this series), passing and blocking. His steals and rebounding declined however those that have watched this series will know that this is probably Jordan’s best series defensively. He took Clyde Drexler (who finished second in MVP voting) out of his game offensively, so much so that Drexler’s shooting %’s fell from 47% FG and 33.7% 3PT in the regular season to 40.7% FG and 15.0% 3PT in the Finals.

1993

NBA final: 41.0ppg (NBA Finals record – which still stands today), 8.5rpg, 6.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.7bpg, 50.8% FG, 40.0% 3PT, 69.4% FT

Regular season: 32.6ppg (led the league), 6.7rpg, 5.5apg, 2.8spg (led the league), 0.7bpg, 49.5% FG, 35.2% 3PT, 83.7% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, 3PT% rebounding and passing. His level of play dropped when it came to steals and FT% and stayed the same when it came to blocks.

Overall Finals averages:

(3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

Overall conclusion: When it came to the NBA Finals Jordan raised his overall level of play both offensively and defensively. While MJ was a prolific scorer, he showed the ability to adapt or adjust his game to different situations and increase his passing and/or rebounding numbers while still scoring at an increased rate.

Conclusion:

Michael Jordan – (3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

LeBron James – (4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

In the NBA Finals after their first 10 years Jordan has higher: scoring, FG%, 3PT%, FT% and assist averages, as well as having played better, more consistent defence. LeBron has the advantage when it pertains to rebounding.

Jordan faced the: 5th, 3rd and 9th best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 5.6th best defence in the league.

LeBron faced the: 2nd, 8th, 11th and 3rd best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 6th best defence in the league.

Perimeter defenders and teams in Jordan’s era were allowed to defend much more physically due to being able to hand-check, the absence of the 3 second rule etc.

Additionally MJ matched up against Magic and Drexler in 91 and 92 respectively, both of whom finished second in MVP voting that year (due to MJ winning MVP). In 93 MJ faced (but didn’t match up against) Charles Barkley, who won MVP that year (MJ finished third behind Hakeem).

In 2007 Duncan finished 4th in MVP voting and Parker finished 15th, in 2011 Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting, in 2012 Durant finished 2nd (LeBron won MVP and matched up against Durant) and in 2013 Parker finished 6th in MVP voting.

Overall, after 10 years in the NBA, Jordan had dominated the league at a higher level than LeBron from both an offensive and defensive stand point and had raised his level of play in all areas on a more consistent basis in the NBA final better than LeBron had.

Cal827
12-04-2013, 07:49 PM
Nickdymez and Amos1er in a thread containing Kobe Bryant? Well I'll take my position firmly under this chair :hide:

Supreme LA
12-04-2013, 07:49 PM
Why do Lebron nut huggers always have to make every thread about Lebron?

Paul George is a magnificent player and will eventually be a great player as his career progresses and if he leads his team to postseason success. The kid is a flat out stud on the defensive end and he has developed so many fundamental skills that are commonly lost among the new generation of players. I love his footwork, ball handling for his size, and his jump shot is continually improving.

I can only hope the future players learn from players of the past and develop the skills that seem to be leaving the game.

Chronz
12-04-2013, 07:54 PM
Your not being fair guy. Every post pertaining to the Lakers and/or Kobe is immediately derailed by the same people. Now i understand that it happens to other players (Lebron, Melo, Rose), but lakers fans are treated with hate and discontent. I've seen 4 Lakers fans perma banned. Not to mention the constant bans that we get. I was banned for calling someone "dumb", yet the same people come in these threads (You included) and pretty much condesend everyone who doesnt agree with you, but are never banned. The mods here hate the lakers (Hawkeye for instance) and makes it known with their actions.

Guys like "naps, Jusinum, Raps" CONSTANTLY bait, troll, insult, etc and nothing happens to them at all...

Im not being fair by raising the question and not just buying the woe is me BS all fan bases use? Yeah thats real objective there.

I know you cant prove what you're saying but can you offer anything other than conjecture?? I already know you're lying when you say I've never been banned, I cant even get rid of this current infraction despite the guy I was allegedly offending, being on my side, and I dont think you realize what constitutes a flame post given the examples I cited above, so color me skeptical on this theory of yours.

Mods are alot like NBA refs, they dont call all the fouls but reputations build up. In my personal experience, they let some **** slide when its a 2-way exchange so long as it doesn't escalate out of hand and become a flame war. Would you rather they just ban us for any slight/moderate offense? Im pretty sure alot of us would need something to work on if that happened.

Chronz
12-04-2013, 07:58 PM
Anyways, nobody is reading all that junk moser. Be sure to implement their arguments when the debate inevitably comes up again, but dont cram links down our throats, if those morons were here to refute any rebuttals then thats different, stand alone.

Chronz
12-04-2013, 08:01 PM
Lol Some people. And they wonder why they have zero credibility.

Hes just raising the question, and Im pretty sure it was said in jest.

PowerHouse
12-04-2013, 08:01 PM
Yes its a cycle. Players get old, retire, new players come in. And the bus goes round and round.

If we're trying to compare Paul George to MJ or Kobe to Paul George, etc then thats a waste of time. Every player is different and every player's roles on their respective teams differ a little as well.

BKLYNpigeon
12-04-2013, 08:33 PM
Lol. I love how Jordan always subliminally throw jabs at Lebron. never giving him respect. haha.

ThaDubs
12-04-2013, 08:41 PM
Yes

Nice sig bro :laugh:

P&GRealist
12-04-2013, 09:01 PM
The **** is LeBron being mentioned here?

nickdymez
12-04-2013, 10:03 PM
Lol... Perhaps you need to look again.

http://swishnba.com/tag/lebron-vs-jordan-stats-2013/

This should be the end right here ever

koreancabbage
12-04-2013, 10:37 PM
The **** is LeBron being mentioned here?

why is PG being compared to Kobe and Jordan and he's part of this "cycle".

i think when you are going to mention Jordan and Kobe, you're going to get Lebron as well - and to a lesser extent, Durant. PG shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as these guys (Kobe and Jordan) when he hasn't done anything yet.

IKnowHoops
12-04-2013, 11:02 PM
PG might eventually be efficient like MJ. But that's about it.

As for comparing with Kobe, his career best TS% will eclipse 60% something Kobe has never done; His FG% is already better than best of Kobe. He also won't be a ballhog, which means he will keep his teammates engaged a lot more. I think he will be more like an all-round centerstone.

This all day. Paul George's mentality is different from Mike's and not even close to Kobe's. Mike got his points within the flow of the offense. Same as Paul George. Kobe gets many of his points on his own iso's. Kobe copied Mike's game but he only copied the highlight reel part, thats why Kobe never passes up a shot once his mind is made up because he's trying to out due Mike's best highlight on every play. Kobe is a great example of a very intelligent person who's ego stopped him from being better than what he could of been.

TheNumber37
12-04-2013, 11:10 PM
George has to get some scoring titles first. And... There is a guy named Kevin Durant who will be having none of that.

P&GRealist
12-05-2013, 12:09 AM
why is PG being compared to Kobe and Jordan and he's part of this "cycle".

i think when you are going to mention Jordan and Kobe, you're going to get Lebron as well - and to a lesser extent, Durant. PG shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as these guys (Kobe and Jordan) when he hasn't done anything yet.
Skillset, style of play.

Reading is fundamental.

Supreme LA
12-05-2013, 12:11 AM
This all day. Paul George's mentality is different from Mike's and not even close to Kobe's. Mike got his points within the flow of the offense. Same as Paul George. Kobe gets many of his points on his own iso's. Kobe copied Mike's game but he only copied the highlight reel part, thats why Kobe never passes up a shot once his mind is made up because he's trying to out due Mike's best highlight on every play. Kobe is a great example of a very intelligent person who's ego stopped him from being better than what he could of been.

Apparently, you don't know ****.

P&GRealist
12-05-2013, 12:12 AM
This all day. Paul George's mentality is different from Mike's and not even close to Kobe's. Mike got his points within the flow of the offense. Same as Paul George. Kobe gets many of his points on his own iso's. Kobe copied Mike's game but he only copied the highlight reel part, thats why Kobe never passes up a shot once his mind is made up because he's trying to out due Mike's best highlight on every play. Kobe is a great example of a very intelligent person who's ego stopped him from being better than what he could of been.
For the first 5 or so yrs of his career under Doug Collins, MJ was a ballhog putting up shots like no other, then Collins got fired and in came assistant coach Zen Master and his implementation of Tex's triangle. Without the triangle, MJ was an untamed lion with no conscience.

Chronz
12-05-2013, 12:52 AM
This should be the end right here ever
Why does it list championships like this;
MJ: 3 in 3 tries

LBJ: 2 in 4 tries

LOL, they had the same amount of tries, I fail to see the virtues of losing before ever reaching the Finals in the first place, particularly when its in incredibly dominant fashion against a superior team the way Bron did in Cleveland (on a team that went 0-7 IIRC without him). LOL MJ couldn't carry trash like that.

Chronz
12-05-2013, 12:54 AM
For the first 5 or so yrs of his career under Doug Collins, MJ was a ballhog putting up shots like no other, then Collins got fired and in came assistant coach Zen Master and his implementation of Tex's triangle. Without the triangle, MJ was an untamed lion with no conscience.
Might very well be true.

WadeKobe
12-05-2013, 01:00 AM
For the first 5 or so yrs of his career under Doug Collins, MJ was a ballhog putting up shots like no other, then Collins got fired and in came assistant coach Zen Master and his implementation of Tex's triangle. Without the triangle, MJ was an untamed lion with no conscience.
And Kobe WITH the triangle was untamed with no conscience and couldn't put up numbers with the right kind of efficiency

P&GRealist
12-05-2013, 01:07 AM
And Kobe WITH the triangle was untamed with no conscience and couldn't put up numbers with the right kind of efficiency

You really have to look at the roles of Michael and Kobe in the triangle.

The first stint of the Triangle, Shaq was the focal point while Kobe was not only the #2 option and the closer on that squad, but a good part of his energy was expended on initiating the triangle and facilitating and ensuring that it was run the way Phil and Tex wanted. His first yr under Phil, Kobe was under the tutelage of Ron Harper, but then after that Kobe took over that facilitator role as Harper was nearing the end of his career.

In the second stint under Phil, although Kobe was the main focal point on offense, he and Fisher (who slowly learned the mechanics of the triangle under Harper and teammate Brian Shaw who then became the Lakers assistant coach for Phil during this 2nd stint) ran and initiated the principles of the offense.

I wholly agree with the notion that Michael was a more patient and disciplined offensive player than Kobe, I think having Dean Smith helped Michael mature quicker than Kobe did (who came straight out of HS). But I also think that with Michael not having to have the responsibilities of organizing the offense and becoming facilitator in that offense as well like Kobe did in both stints (Michael had BJ Armstrong and Scottie during the first 3 peat and then Scottie and Ron Harper in the 2nd 3peat) helped conserve energy for Michael to do what he did best, and that was putting the ball through that nylon.

amos1er
12-05-2013, 02:12 AM
Why does it list championships like this;
MJ: 3 in 3 tries

LBJ: 2 in 4 tries

LOL, they had the same amount of tries, I fail to see the virtues of losing before ever reaching the Finals in the first place, particularly when its in incredibly dominant fashion against a superior team the way Bron did in Cleveland (on a team that went 0-7 IIRC without him). LOL MJ couldn't carry trash like that.

Lebron didn't even make the playoffs his first two years while Jordan did. They both had garbage teams. Jordan at age 26 would not have choked the way Lebron did in the 2011 finals with by far the best supporting cast in the NBA and HCA. Just look at their playoff numbers and finals numbers... It's not even close. Jordan's worst year was better than Lebron's best and Jordan faced far greater competition. Also, I see what you mean about the tries and that it shouldn't only count finals, but take into account the bad boy Pistons and the 80's Celtics... Lebron never had eastern conference rivals that good... Heck, he didn't even have finals opponents that were that good. Jordan didn't even need 7 games to beat teams that were equally tough, or tougher than the Spurs. Jordan is in a whole other tier. The Lebron comparisons need to stop... They are just foolish.

IKnowHoops
12-05-2013, 07:20 AM
For the first 5 or so yrs of his career under Doug Collins, MJ was a ballhog putting up shots like no other, then Collins got fired and in came assistant coach Zen Master and his implementation of Tex's triangle. Without the triangle, MJ was an untamed lion with no conscience.

And Kobe was all this with the triangle

koreancabbage
12-05-2013, 07:32 AM
Skillset, style of play.

Reading is fundamental.

"style of play" LOL omg

I hope PG is better than Kobe in style of play. Jordan was at least efficient. If we're going this follow the leader, Kobe is worse than Jordan.... and we're implying PG is going to be worse than Kobe?

what cycle is there?????

I mean there has been a BUNCH of players that had better comparisons to Kobe and Jordan before PG. PG is probably like T-Mac due to the length and size as a player.

Look, PG is a top NBA player today but I don't find his game anything close to Kobe or Jordan. He doesn't have the flair of the game nor the personality - and that's a big give-away right there.

Chronz
12-05-2013, 11:30 AM
Lebron didn't even make the playoffs his first two years while Jordan did.
Bron was a teenage child during a stage in his career where MJ was balling up other children and being like the 2nd best player on his team. Anything Bron did during this stage of his career is just gravy.



They both had garbage teams.
My point is that Bron did a better job carrying his garbage. He actually defeated a superior team to make the Finals, in historic fashion no less, thats not something that should be held against him the way the author does by only counting Finals appearances. I've never seen someone with 66 games without even having a bonafide All-Star next to him. I truly wish Bron had teammates worth a damn during the early stages of his career ala Kobe/Magic.


Jordan at age 26 would not have choked the way Lebron did in the 2011 finals with by far the best supporting cast in the NBA and HCA.
That how great Bron is, that a Finals run in his FIRST year with an entirely different franchise/teammates/coach is the biggest complaint people have on him. Fine by me, hold it against him, doesn't define an entire career, know what does? An entire career. And his case is still being built, hes done things MJ hasn't and MJ's done things he hasn't, its highly unlikely he ever surpasses MJ's legacy given how picture perfect it was, but the rationale applied about Championship chances is hilarious.


Just look at their playoff numbers and finals numbers... It's not even close.
Hyperbole for the win. You already know I dont trust you with numbers and its not even close.


Jordan's worst year was better than Lebron's best and Jordan faced far greater competition.
Ridiculous. And it was easier to produce against this greater competition as it was an era with inferior athletes and rules that prevented defenses from fully loading up against isolation players.


Also, I see what you mean about the tries and that it shouldn't only count finals, but take into account the bad boy Pistons and the 80's Celtics... Lebron never had eastern conference rivals that good...
He did however defeat a superior team to make the Finals, in historic fashion no less. He also plays in a superior defensive era with superior athletes. But yes, defeating those teams would have been too much too ask from MJ, my point about tries is all I was getting at. If you're going to make the comparison, you have to be objective. Penalizing LeBron for overachieving is a sure fire way to expose bias. Hold the Miami loss against him, thats fair, but Cleveland? LMFAO, Bron did **** with that cast that nobody in the history of the game would have accomplished. They were literally a team that would be in the lottery without him to Finals contenders/participants with him.


Heck, he didn't even have finals opponents that were that good. Jordan didn't even need 7 games to beat teams that were equally tough, or tougher than the Spurs.
I dont know what you're basing this on but I certainly dont agree. The Spurs were the superior team given the fact that the Heat were playing with a seriously hobbled Wade, who often hurt the team. Yet the Heat prevailed anyways.

nickdymez
12-05-2013, 11:46 AM
Why does it list championships like this;
MJ: 3 in 3 tries

LBJ: 2 in 4 tries

LOL, they had the same amount of tries, I fail to see the virtues of losing before ever reaching the Finals in the first place, particularly when its in incredibly dominant fashion against a superior team the way Bron did in Cleveland (on a team that went 0-7 IIRC without him). LOL MJ couldn't carry trash like that.

Yea, this number is a little strange. I also didnt like the authors bias. But most of those other numbers are very telling. Especially the finals scoring....

WadeKobe
12-05-2013, 11:52 AM
You really have to look at the roles of Michael and Kobe in the triangle.

The first stint of the Triangle, Shaq was the focal point while Kobe was not only the #2 option and the closer on that squad, but a good part of his energy was expended on initiating the triangle and facilitating and ensuring that it was run the way Phil and Tex wanted. His first yr under Phil, Kobe was under the tutelage of Ron Harper, but then after that Kobe took over that facilitator role as Harper was nearing the end of his career.

In the second stint under Phil, although Kobe was the main focal point on offense, he and Fisher (who slowly learned the mechanics of the triangle under Harper and teammate Brian Shaw who then became the Lakers assistant coach for Phil during this 2nd stint) ran and initiated the principles of the offense.

I wholly agree with the notion that Michael was a more patient and disciplined offensive player than Kobe, I think having Dean Smith helped Michael mature quicker than Kobe did (who came straight out of HS). But I also think that with Michael not having to have the responsibilities of organizing the offense and becoming facilitator in that offense as well like Kobe did in both stints (Michael had BJ Armstrong and Scottie during the first 3 peat and then Scottie and Ron Harper in the 2nd 3peat) helped conserve energy for Michael to do what he did best, and that was putting the ball through that nylon.

So, Kobe learning to be te facilitator made him a ballhog how??

P&GRealist
12-05-2013, 12:50 PM
So, Kobe learning to be te facilitator made him a ballhog how??
Kobe being a ballhog in the triangle is overstated IMO. In 05-06 and 06-07, Phil himself told Kobe that because he along with Luke Walton and Brian Cook were the only guys who knew the triangle, he wanted Kobe to carry the extreme scoring load. And guys knew all those yrs playing with Kobe in the triangle that if the defense got stiff and players got out of whack in the offense, Kobe was always there to bail them out at the end of shot clock and game clock situations to save their percentages from suffering, off of broken offense sequences in the triangle, it was always Kobe and to a certain extent in Fisher who bailed out their teammates just by getting a shot up whether hit or miss.

You know, even MJ still put up ridiculous shot attempts and low percentages under the triangle. Just see the 96 finals against the Sonics and that last game in 98 against Utah where he scored 45 but went 13-35 from the field.

Pacerlive
12-05-2013, 01:06 PM
Why does it list championships like this;
MJ: 3 in 3 tries

LBJ: 2 in 4 tries

LOL, they had the same amount of tries, I fail to see the virtues of losing before ever reaching the Finals in the first place, particularly when its in incredibly dominant fashion against a superior team the way Bron did in Cleveland (on a team that went 0-7 IIRC without him). LOL MJ couldn't carry trash like that.
Here is the problem as I see it.

The simpletons way to compare Goats is just off of rings and basic states. It largely assumes the front office, coach and supporting cast are equal or just negligible in these comparisons.

Nothing could be further from the truth IMO so what I like to do is assign a percentage of credit for championships or blame for the lack of supporting cast.

Does anyone think that Jordan wouldn't be the Goat if he had played with Shaq or Lebron would have less rings if he had played with a prime Shaq such as Kobe did.

To me by breaking the championships down to a percentage of credit the comparisons atleast seem more reasonable and less biased.

For instance I give the front office of the Lakers less credit if Kobe in fact pigeon holed himself to be selected by them in the draft. I give them a ton of credit to lure Shaq to the team however.

For me when I do this Jordan still comes out on top 10 out of 10 times. I have no doubt though that Lebron could come very close once his career ends but I don't entertain such notions right now while he still has a chance to compile quite a resume.

Kobe by in large is the major benefactor of playing with the most dominant center in the leauge and if he doesn't play for the Lakers (or a major market) I am pretty sure his championship total would put him below Lebron unless he pulled a move like Lebron did.

WadeKobe
12-05-2013, 01:42 PM
Kobe being a ballhog in the triangle is overstated IMO. In 05-06 and 06-07, Phil himself told Kobe that because he along with Luke Walton and Brian Cook were the only guys who knew the triangle, he wanted Kobe to carry the extreme scoring load. And guys knew all those yrs playing with Kobe in the triangle that if the defense got stiff and players got out of whack in the offense, Kobe was always there to bail them out at the end of shot clock and game clock situations to save their percentages from suffering, off of broken offense sequences in the triangle, it was always Kobe and to a certain extent in Fisher who bailed out their teammates just by getting a shot up whether hit or miss.

You know, even MJ still put up ridiculous shot attempts and low percentages under the triangle. Just see the 96 finals against the Sonics and that last game in 98 against Utah where he scored 45 but went 13-35 from the field.

The idea that Kobe's percentages are due to bailing out teammates is nonsense.

P&GRealist
12-05-2013, 04:34 PM
The idea that Kobe's percentages are due to bailing out teammates is nonsense.

They contribute to it, sure. If you truly are a fan of Kobe Bryant as it seems you should be by your username, then you've watched how many numerous times over his 17 yr career he has bailed out guys and has been willing to receive the ball with 3 or 4 seconds left on the shot clock because his teammates don't want to let their percentages suffer or simply don't want to be the reason for having a wasted offensive possession. So what's the next best thing to do? Give it to #24, who's the best ever in league history at manufacturing something outta nothing.

WadeKobe
12-05-2013, 04:38 PM
They contribute to it, sure. If you truly are a fan of Kobe Bryant as it seems you should be by your username, then you've watched how many numerous times over his 17 yr career he has bailed out guys and has been willing to receive the ball with 3 or 4 seconds left on the shot clock because his teammates don't want to let their percentages suffer or simply don't want to be the reason for having a wasted offensive possession. So what's the next best thing to do? Give it to #24, who's the best ever in league history at manufacturing something outta nothing.

Kobe has played on as great of teams than just about any player in league history, and yet he is a lower efficiency shooter than Michael or Lebron, and plenty of others. He simply isn't the best at creating something out of nothing.

In order to maintain your line of logics, you would be required to suggest Kobe has had to bail his teammates out more often than others, which is very unlikely to be the case.

Pacerlive
12-05-2013, 06:11 PM
They contribute to it, sure. If you truly are a fan of Kobe Bryant as it seems you should be by your username, then you've watched how many numerous times over his 17 yr career he has bailed out guys and has been willing to receive the ball with 3 or 4 seconds left on the shot clock because his teammates don't want to let their percentages suffer or simply don't want to be the reason for having a wasted offensive possession. So what's the next best thing to do? Give it to #24, who's the best ever in league history at manufacturing something outta nothing.
Shot clock useage should show this and it really doesn't. Kobe doesn't stand out from either Wade, Dirk or Lebron in the number of his shot attempts with 3 seconds left on the shot clock.

In fact Lebron is the only guy who stands out with a whopping 21% of his attempts with 3 seconds left on the shot clock. Kobe is hovering around 13% to 14% in the five years that I checked.

P&GRealist
12-05-2013, 06:41 PM
Shot clock useage should show this and it really doesn't. Kobe doesn't stand out from either Wade, Dirk or Lebron in the number of his shot attempts with 3 seconds left on the shot clock.

In fact Lebron is the only guy who stands out with a whopping 21% of his attempts with 3 seconds left on the shot clock. Kobe is hovering around 13% to 14% in the five years that I checked.

Do your stats include how many seconds left on the shot clock that players receives the ball before he attempts that shot? For all we know, those shot attempts come from end quarter situations when that guy uses up the majority of the 24 and has the ball from the beginning of that offensive possession.

Pacerlive
12-05-2013, 07:14 PM
Do your stats include how many seconds left on the shot clock that players receives the ball before he attempts that shot? For all we know, those shot attempts come from end quarter situations when that guy uses up the majority of the 24 and has the ball from the beginning of that offensive possession.
Well simple math would tell you that would be 4 shots every game not including overtime. Do you really think that would skew a percentage such as 13% of all your shot attempts with 3 seconds left on the shot clock? The other caveat to that argument is that their is some difference between the players mentioned and end of the quarter situations which is hard for me to believe. Lebron most likely will take the last shot on his team much like Kobe would for his.

Even if you believe Kobe bailed out his teammates more than others the fact still remains even if you go further back into the shot clock giving him more time to put up a shot he still statistically doesn't skew beyond other superstar players.

WadeKobe
12-05-2013, 07:57 PM
Well simple math would tell you that would be 4 shots every game not including overtime. Do you really think that would skew a percentage such as 13% of all your shot attempts with 3 seconds left on the shot clock? The other caveat to that argument is that their is some difference between the players mentioned and end of the quarter situations which is hard for me to believe. Lebron most likely will take the last shot on his team much like Kobe would for his.

Even if you believe Kobe bailed out his teammates more than others the fact still remains even if you go further back into the shot clock giving him more time to put up a shot he still statistically doesn't skew beyond other superstar players.

It's just idle attempts. They'll never end. There is always some reason why it isn't Kobe's fault he makes a lower percentage of his shots than every other superstar.

beliges
12-05-2013, 11:24 PM
Well simple math would tell you that would be 4 shots every game not including overtime. Do you really think that would skew a percentage such as 13% of all your shot attempts with 3 seconds left on the shot clock? The other caveat to that argument is that their is some difference between the players mentioned and end of the quarter situations which is hard for me to believe. Lebron most likely will take the last shot on his team much like Kobe would for his.

Even if you believe Kobe bailed out his teammates more than others the fact still remains even if you go further back into the shot clock giving him more time to put up a shot he still statistically doesn't skew beyond other superstar players.

It's just idle attempts. They'll never end. There is always some reason why it isn't Kobe's fault he makes a lower percentage of his shots than every other superstar.

Kobe can shoot whatever % he wants to. He's the most dominant player of his generation in terms of winning. I think he's earned the right. LOL.

cmellofan15
12-06-2013, 03:12 AM
Kobe can shoot whatever % he wants to. He's the most dominant player of his generation in terms of winning. I think he's earned the right. LOL.

I wouldn't say dominant. Consistent is a better word.

FlashBolt
12-06-2013, 03:19 AM
PSD logic: Losing in the finals is worse than not making the finals..

Seriously?

jerellh528
12-06-2013, 03:27 AM
Kobe has played on as great of teams than just about any player in league history, and yet he is a lower efficiency shooter than Michael or Lebron, and plenty of others. He simply isn't the best at creating something out of nothing.

In order to maintain your line of logics, you would be required to suggest Kobe has had to bail his teammates out more often than others, which is very unlikely to be the case.

When is that fallacy going to die. He played with shaq like 1 or maybe 2 years of his prime, the other decade of his prime has been all the Kobe show.

beliges
12-06-2013, 01:57 PM
Kobe can shoot whatever % he wants to. He's the most dominant player of his generation in terms of winning. I think he's earned the right. LOL.

I wouldn't say dominant. Consistent is a better word.

5 titles and 7 finals is as dominant as anyone in the history of the league. LOL. It doesn't get much more dominant than that.

jerellh528
12-06-2013, 02:47 PM
Klay thompson! Jkjk but really, he's my dark horse for best sg in the league by season's end. I love his game and is one of my favorite young players.

WadeKobe
12-06-2013, 07:34 PM
When is that fallacy going to die. He played with shaq like 1 or maybe 2 years of his prime, the other decade of his prime has been all the Kobe show.

He played on the team with the most important asset in basketball: the most dominant front line with multiple great 7-footers.

The fallacy is that it was the Kobe show. It was the Pau/Odom/Bynum show.

Tony_Starks
12-06-2013, 07:44 PM
His game is probably the most similar to Kobe's out of the new generation but I don't think PG scares anybody in the fourth quarter....YET. He's almost there though, but he has a ways to go.

beliges
12-06-2013, 07:47 PM
He played on the team with the most important asset in basketball: the most dominant front line with multiple great 7-footers.

The fallacy is that it was the Kobe show. It was the Pau/Odom/Bynum show.

LOL. Every champion played with remarkable talent. MJ had Pippen and Rodman. Hell, Lebron had Wade and Bosh and Ray Allen. Certainly Pau and Bynum and Lamar are not quite on par with the level of talent I mentioned above.

WadeKobe
12-06-2013, 07:52 PM
First of all, choose a lane. I said he played on incredibly talented teams. As good as just about anyone else had. Then you said that's a fallacy, it was all Kobe. Then you say his teams were very talented. What?

Having the best frontcourt, full of 3 players who were top10 over 6'10" at the time was, in fact, a bigger talent advantage than having Wade, Bosh, and Allen, yes.

beliges
12-06-2013, 07:59 PM
First of all, choose a lane. I said he played on incredibly talented teams. As good as just about anyone else had. Then you said that's a fallacy, it was all Kobe. Then you say his teams were very talented. What?

Having the best frontcourt, full of 3 players who were top10 over 6'10" at the time was, in fact, a bigger talent advantage than having Wade, Bosh, and Allen, yes.

The 00-02 Lakers were one of the greatest teams ever assembled. The 09-10 Lakers were nowhere near being one of the most talented championship teams. Funny enough, those 09-10 Lakers teams had Kobe, Pau and a bunch of other players who are mostly out of the league at this point. LOL.

dee279
12-06-2013, 08:12 PM
Lol and not too long ago, people were saying James Harden, Kyrie Irving, and all kind of other guys are better. I see feelings have changed.

WadeKobe
12-06-2013, 08:13 PM
The 00-02 Lakers were one of the greatest teams ever assembled. The 09-10 Lakers were nowhere near being one of the most talented championship teams. Funny enough, those 09-10 Lakers teams had Kobe, Pau and a bunch of other players who are mostly out of the league at this point. LOL.

Lol at using out of the league due to time (age and injuries) to discredit how great Bynum and Odom were durin those years. GTFO.

beliges
12-06-2013, 08:33 PM
Lol at using out of the league due to time (age and injuries) to discredit how great Bynum and Odom were durin those years. GTFO.

Theres no discrediting. They were both very good role players. But to say they were anything beyond that is laughable. The way you describe them it seems as though they were perennial all-stars or something.

WadeKobe
12-06-2013, 08:39 PM
Theres no discrediting. They were both very good role players. But to say they were anything beyond that is laughable. The way you describe them it seems as though they were perennial all-stars or something.

:laugh2: I am out. Peace.

Supreme LA
12-06-2013, 08:43 PM
Lol at using out of the league due to time (age and injuries) to discredit how great Bynum and Odom were durin those years. GTFO.

Great Bynum was?

If I remember correctly, Bynum wasn't even a factor in the 2009-2010 championship run. I would also never discredit Odom because I love him as a player and the way he played his supporting role to Kobe but I really think you're grabbing at straws trying to discredit Kobe in any way you can.

Supreme LA
12-06-2013, 08:46 PM
:laugh2: I am out. Peace.

I don't get what is funny about his statement. He spoke the truth. Again, I know you're a Wade fan so I try to take everything you say with an understanding of your bias, but you are seriously doing anything you can to discredit Kobe. Any argument you have made against Kobe regarding his teammates can be applied to your favorite players as well.

WadeKobe
12-06-2013, 08:49 PM
Great Bynum was?

If I remember correctly, Bynum wasn't even a factor in the 2009-2010 championship run. I would also never discredit Odom because I love him as a player and the way he played his supporting role to Kobe but I really think you're grabbing at straws trying to discredit Kobe in any way you can.

I am not actually tryin to discredit Kobe at all. I am trying to get rid of te illusion that Kobe's championship teams weren't loaded with talent like most others, including the current Heat or the 90s Bulls.

Was it as talented as the 90s Bulls? No. Was it the best team in the league, more talented than all others, just like many other hampionshipteams? Yes.

Again, I had one simple point early...

For as great as Kobe has been, the reality is he has shot a lower percentage from the field than any other superstar offensive player of his stature. That's a fact and it matters. From there, people have blamed this on anything and everyone other than Kobe, insisting he had to bail out teammates at what would necessarily amount to an inordinate number of times.

But this just doesn't hold water. Kobe played on the best team, or one of the two est teams in the league when he won his championships. Veligers is trying really hard to obfuscate this fact.

WadeKobe
12-06-2013, 08:50 PM
I don't get what is funny about his statement. He spoke the truth. Again, I know you're a Wade fan so I try to take everything you say with an understanding of your bias, but you are seriously doing anything you can to discredit Kobe. Any argument you have made against Kobe regarding his teammates can be applied to your favorite players as well.

Agreed. Championship teams are usuly great teams. I never suggested otherwise. Beliges did.

Pierre The Poet
12-08-2013, 04:25 AM
Paul George slapped hands with Lebron in the middle of a game during the playoffs. That already shows me that he doesn't have the killer instinct that both Kobe and Jordan had.

PacersForLife
12-08-2013, 04:44 AM
Paul George slapped hands with Lebron in the middle of a game during the playoffs. That already shows me that he doesn't have the killer instinct that both Kobe and Jordan had.

I honestly am not sure Paul has that killer instinct either, but I don't think this is what proves it.

mightybosstone
12-08-2013, 11:28 AM
I completely fail to see the point of this thread. So superstars in sports model their games after other superstars they watched when they were kids? No ****. I fail to see how this is a "cycle".

ewing
12-08-2013, 04:38 PM
more guards should try to be Michael like Kobe instead of trying to play like Dan Dickau

flea
12-08-2013, 04:46 PM
I love this "killer instinct" crap. It started out as the lingo of Kobephiles but now every ****** NBA journalist/reporter (read: ex-players) uses it as if they are adding something meaningful to the conversation. NBA is my 2nd favorite sports entertainment league.

beliges
12-08-2013, 04:50 PM
I don't get what is funny about his statement. He spoke the truth. Again, I know you're a Wade fan so I try to take everything you say with an understanding of your bias, but you are seriously doing anything you can to discredit Kobe. Any argument you have made against Kobe regarding his teammates can be applied to your favorite players as well.

Agreed. Championship teams are usuly great teams. I never suggested otherwise. Beliges did.

Say what? Certain championship teams have much more tremendous talent than others. I believe you attempted to argue that the 09-10 lakers teams were among the most talented because of Bynum, Pau and Lamar. I simply disagreed with you on the basis that Bynum and Lamar were nothing more than fantastic role players. For instance the Heat championship teams with LBJ, Wade and Bosh were far more talented given they had 3 franchise players on one team..

mngopher35
12-08-2013, 10:01 PM
Say what? Certain championship teams have much more tremendous talent than others. I believe you attempted to argue that the 09-10 lakers teams were among the most talented because of Bynum, Pau and Lamar. I simply disagreed with you on the basis that Bynum and Lamar were nothing more than fantastic role players. For instance the Heat championship teams with LBJ, Wade and Bosh were far more talented given they had 3 franchise players on one team..

The size, rebounding, and defense that the front court provided was just as important as the "talent" of wade and bosh. Let's also not act like they have been healthy the last 2 years either (same goes for Bynum, I know). I would take Gasol in 10 over Wade (or Bosh) last year in the playoffs and it isn't really close.

P&GRealist
12-09-2013, 05:03 AM
I love this "killer instinct" crap. It started out as the lingo of Kobephiles but now every ****** NBA journalist/reporter (read: ex-players) uses it as if they are adding something meaningful to the conversation. NBA is my 2nd favorite sports entertainment league.

Well good for you, that is fantastic!

Now if you're done with your incoherent irrelevant rant, please get the **** off.

_Supreme_
12-09-2013, 06:29 AM
I completely fail to see the point of this thread. So superstars in sports model their games after other superstars they watched when they were kids? No ****. I fail to see how this is a "cycle".

It is just the so manieth typical Kobephile thread. You know the kind of threads they like to make, so trying to see any point or logic is wasted time I'm afraid.


If there is any "cycle" at all it is Jordan - Shaq - Lebron, but that too is a useless discussion anyway.

WadeKobe
12-09-2013, 08:15 AM
Say what? Certain championship teams have much more tremendous talent than others. I believe you attempted to argue that the 09-10 lakers teams were among the most talented because of Bynum, Pau and Lamar. I simply disagreed with you on the basis that Bynum and Lamar were nothing more than fantastic role players. For instance the Heat championship teams with LBJ, Wade and Bosh were far more talented given they had 3 franchise players on one team..

Lol. You don't understand basketball or what wins games. Later.

flea
12-09-2013, 05:41 PM
Well good for you, that is fantastic!

Now if you're done with your incoherent irrelevant rant, please get the **** off.

I was providing you with that information so I don't seem like a disinterested party. Only the WWE rivals the NBA in manufactured drama and thrilling ends. Now if you're done with your *****ing moaning, how about explaining why "killer instict" is a meaningful designation in sports analysis?