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View Full Version : Why isn't Washington a better team?



jimm120
12-02-2013, 09:56 PM
I thought they'd destroy last year but injuries took foot. This year, though, I expected them to be a #5-7 seed. Yet, they're toiling around at around .500.


Why is a team with these guys not dominating?

John Wall
Bradly Beal
Marcin Gortat
Trevor Ariza
Nene Hilario

Those are some pretty damn solid players. Guys that are/could be #2 options or #3 options. Yes, their #1 option (Wall) isn't the best #1 option, but they have a slew of other players which are just great STARTERS for any team.

So, why do you think they aren't a better team?

JEDean89
12-02-2013, 10:06 PM
i mean, they're gonna be 3rd in the east after tonight, lol.

seriously though there bench is pretty awful, Nene isn't that good and Beal is injured. When Otto Porter comes back maybe they can get something good going but until then they are a .500 team.

WES KOAST
12-02-2013, 10:55 PM
maybe cuz they have gortwat and the worst looking jerseys?

beasted86
12-02-2013, 11:21 PM
Who on that team plays defense? If you have a team of 15 players and not one of them will sniff an All-Defensive team vote, that says something.

You also have Wall and Beal eating up half of the total possessions while shooting 41% a piece and turning the ball over at a pretty high rate.

TrueFan420
12-02-2013, 11:36 PM
Injuries, weak bench, no defense, wall is overrated and beal needs more time.

WES KOAST
12-03-2013, 12:04 AM
Injuries, weak bench, no defense, wall is overrated and beal needs more time.

haha basically what I was going to say. wall aint no irving

John Walls Era
12-03-2013, 12:14 AM
irving sucks. wall is way better. do u want pin point passes or pepsi commercial (cokes better anyways). i dont expect a forum of dumbasses to understand talent tho.

TrueFan420
12-03-2013, 12:15 AM
haha basically what I was going to say. wall aint no irving

Irving is overrated too but that's a different discussion for a different thread.

WES KOAST
12-03-2013, 12:18 AM
irving sucks. wall is way better. do u want pin point passes or pepsi commercial (cokes better anyways). i dont expect a forum of dumbasses to understand talent tho.

u must be smoking sum crack

WES KOAST
12-03-2013, 12:19 AM
Irving is overrated too but that's a different discussion for a different thread.

he's not overrated, it not his fault the owner keeps drafting losers.

IndyRealist
12-03-2013, 12:32 AM
Guys who get a lot of minutes
John Wall PG - need to work on his shot selection and shooting form, average to good player, but not great
Marcin Gortat C - needs to be the primary post player in PnR, average to good player, not great
Nene PF - decent scorer but kills you on rebounding and defense, overall slightly below average player
Martell Webster, SG/SF - good low volume player that actually has some D, good player
Bradley Beal, SG - piss poor shot selection and zero ability inside the arc, bad player but only a sophomore
Trevor Ariza SG/SF - good low volume player that actually has some D, good player

Guys who shouldn't get minutes, but do
Eric Maynor PG - can't shoot, overrated defender, below average player
Garret Temple PG/SG - can't shoot, passable defender, below average player
Kevin Seraphim PF/C - can't shoot, can't rebound, lots of turnovers, way below average player
Al Harrington PF - can't shoot, can't rebound, no defense, way below average player

Guys who should get a lot of minutes, but don't
Trevor Booker PF - fantastic rebounder and solid defender, plays behind Nene, good player but low minutes
Jan Vesley PF - fantastic rebounder and possible solid player, plays behind Nene, sophomore and low minutes

Guys who get no minutes
Chris Singleton SF - solid role player with virtually no minutes, incomplete
Otto Porter SF - incomplete

----------

So basically, they have a lot of productive players (Trevor Ariza, Martell Webster, Trevor Booker, possibly Jan Vesley, possibly Chris Singleton) who have to share a large chunk of minutes with inferior players (Bradley Beal, Nene, Kevin Seraphim, Al "why is he still employed?" Harrington). Their backup PGs are terrible (Eric Maynor, Garrett Temple) and they have no other options.

3 average to good starters and 2 below average starters, plus a couple of really bad personnel decisions usually equals about a .500 team. Which is right where they are. Where people overestimate them is a) thinking Beal is a good player when he's actually a bad player with the POTENTIAL to be a good player, and b) thinking because Nene scores a lot he's better than Booker.

barreleffact
12-03-2013, 12:44 AM
he's not overrated, it not his fault the owner keeps drafting losers.

He was drafted by that owner, so you must agree that he is a loser then...

I do think Kyrie is a problem and is overrated, but is a very good player. As stated before, that is a topic for a different thread.

KniCks4LiFe
12-03-2013, 12:46 AM
Guys who get a lot of minutes
John Wall PG - need to work on his shot selection and shooting form, average to good player, but not great
Marcin Gortat C - needs to be the primary post player in PnR, average to good player, not great
Nene PF - decent scorer but kills you on rebounding and defense, overall slightly below average player
Martell Webster, SG/SF - good low volume player that actually has some D, good player
Bradley Beal, SG - piss poor shot selection and zero ability inside the arc, bad player but only a sophomore
Trevor Ariza SG/SF - good low volume player that actually has some D, good player

Guys who shouldn't get minutes, but do
Eric Maynor PG - can't shoot, overrated defender, below average player
Garret Temple PG/SG - can't shoot, passable defender, below average player
Kevin Seraphim PF/C - can't shoot, can't rebound, lots of turnovers, way below average player
Al Harrington PF - can't shoot, can't rebound, no defense, way below average player

Guys who should get a lot of minutes, but don't
Trevor Booker PF - fantastic rebounder and solid defender, plays behind Nene, good player but low minutes
Jan Vesley PF - fantastic rebounder and possible solid player, plays behind Nene, sophomore and low minutes

Guys who get no minutes
Chris Singleton SF - solid role player with virtually no minutes, incomplete
Otto Porter SF - incomplete

----------

So basically, they have a lot of productive players (Trevor Ariza, Martell Webster, Trevor Booker, possibly Jan Vesley, possibly Chris Singleton) who have to share a large chunk of minutes with inferior players (Bradley Beal, Nene, Kevin Seraphim, Al "why is he still employed?" Harrington). Their backup PGs are terrible (Eric Maynor, Garrett Temple) and they have no other options.

3 average to good starters and 2 below average starters, plus a couple of really bad personnel decisions usually equals about a .500 team. Which is right where they are. Where people overestimate them is a) thinking Beal is a good player when he's actually a bad player with the POTENTIAL to be a good player, and b) thinking because Nene scores a lot he's better than Booker.

this post saids it.

Plus these are players under 30. They need time to build chemistry as their game expand. One of their biggest issues is aside from Beal, they don't have a go to guy. Wall is great but he's not a go to guy.

RipCity32
12-03-2013, 02:24 AM
I think Detroit and Washington should make a deal surrounding Porter and Monroe. Gives us a young SF to give us a young more traditional starting lineup to work with. This would also give the Wiz a young good 3 in Wall,Beal and Monroe going forward. Of course Washington would have to throw in a 1st rounder though.

FOBolous
12-03-2013, 02:26 AM
Bad coaching. And I think this is the problem with the eastern conference overall....if you really think about it, both conferences have roughly the same amount of good players but what the western conference has that the east doesnt have as much is is good coaches.

papipapsmanny
12-03-2013, 02:35 AM
injuries are making it so the bench is terrible.

If Wall becomes more efficient he is a top 5 PG imo. over 9 assist per game, over 4 rebounds, and 2 steals per game. Just get that jump shot a little better.

Guppyfighter
12-03-2013, 03:09 AM
I noticed people covered most things, but can we talk about Wall's defense? PG's are averaging a 550 true shooting off him and 12 assists per 48 minutes.

For christ sake he let the Lakers point guards go off on him.

UPRock
12-03-2013, 03:26 AM
They're getting better and better, and Potter is not even playing.

EAGLES3658
12-03-2013, 04:04 AM
Guys who get a lot of minutes
John Wall PG - need to work on his shot selection and shooting form, average to good player, but not great
Marcin Gortat C - needs to be the primary post player in PnR, average to good player, not great
Nene PF - decent scorer but kills you on rebounding and defense, overall slightly below average player
Martell Webster, SG/SF - good low volume player that actually has some D, good player
Bradley Beal, SG - piss poor shot selection and zero ability inside the arc, bad player but only a sophomore
Trevor Ariza SG/SF - good low volume player that actually has some D, good player

Guys who shouldn't get minutes, but do
Eric Maynor PG - can't shoot, overrated defender, below average player
Garret Temple PG/SG - can't shoot, passable defender, below average player
Kevin Seraphim PF/C - can't shoot, can't rebound, lots of turnovers, way below average player
Al Harrington PF - can't shoot, can't rebound, no defense, way below average player

Guys who should get a lot of minutes, but don't
Trevor Booker PF - fantastic rebounder and solid defender, plays behind Nene, good player but low minutes
Jan Vesley PF - fantastic rebounder and possible solid player, plays behind Nene, sophomore and low minutes

Guys who get no minutes
Chris Singleton SF - solid role player with virtually no minutes, incomplete
Otto Porter SF - incomplete

----------

So basically, they have a lot of productive players (Trevor Ariza, Martell Webster, Trevor Booker, possibly Jan Vesley, possibly Chris Singleton) who have to share a large chunk of minutes with inferior players (Bradley Beal, Nene, Kevin Seraphim, Al "why is he still employed?" Harrington). Their backup PGs are terrible (Eric Maynor, Garrett Temple) and they have no other options.

3 average to good starters and 2 below average starters, plus a couple of really bad personnel decisions usually equals about a .500 team. Which is right where they are. Where people overestimate them is a) thinking Beal is a good player when he's actually a bad player with the POTENTIAL to be a good player, and b) thinking because Nene scores a lot he's better than Booker.

Funniest thing I heard today. Wall is a top 5 PG. Beal is far from bad. Maynor is bad, Vesely is bad, Seraphin is bad. Beal is not even close to bad. Funny that Wall is only average but Ariza is a good player. Yet Ariza is getting ALL of his points on shots set up by, none other than, Mr. Wall.

The problem with the Wizards is their bench. They have no one on the bench that is good at all. Whenever the bench comes in they get destroyed and it is putting a ton of minutes and wear on the starters.

EAGLES3658
12-03-2013, 04:06 AM
haha basically what I was going to say. wall aint no irving

Irving is really making that Cavs team go, huh?

Guppyfighter
12-03-2013, 04:39 AM
Funniest thing I heard today. Wall is a top 5 PG. Beal is far from bad. Maynor is bad, Vesely is bad, Seraphin is bad. Beal is not even close to bad. Funny that Wall is only average but Ariza is a good player. Yet Ariza is getting ALL of his points on shots set up by, none other than, Mr. Wall.

The problem with the Wizards is their bench. They have no one on the bench that is good at all. Whenever the bench comes in they get destroyed and it is putting a ton of minutes and wear on the starters.

Beal has a ton of potential, but he is bad for now. He may be amazing one day. Today is not one of them. Wall is good and potential to be great, but once more, not yet.

TheScab
12-03-2013, 09:36 AM
Beal has a ton of potential, but he is bad for now. He may be amazing one day. Today is not one of them. Wall is good and potential to be great, but once more, not yet.


Right. Averaging 20.6ppg is "bad for now". Do you even watch basketball?

Research before spewing out nonsense. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6580/bradley-beal

MrfadeawayJB
12-03-2013, 09:47 AM
Give them some time they seem to be a second half of the season team

alencp3
12-03-2013, 10:13 AM
they are the 3rd seed and are 7-3 in the last 10 games.. and are playing without beal and porter... how better do you guys want them to be? seriously..

rockbottom2010
12-03-2013, 11:57 AM
chemistry....they are finally meshing together....shannon brown and marcin gortat are late pick ups...they will be fine.

Ebbs
12-03-2013, 01:09 PM
Defense.

JasonJohnHorn
12-03-2013, 01:13 PM
They started off slow, but they are 7-2 over the last 9 games. Give them credit for the level of play they've been producing. I mean, Gortat was a huge addition. It takes a while for guys to gel. Maybe they will backslide, maybe this 7-2 is how they are going to play all season.

We'll have to wait and see.

SteveZissou
12-03-2013, 01:39 PM
irving sucks. wall is way better. do u want pin point passes or pepsi commercial (cokes better anyways). i dont expect a forum of dumbasses to understand talent tho.

Boy, that escalated quickly.

TrueFan420
12-03-2013, 01:54 PM
Funniest thing I heard today. Wall is a top 5 PG. Beal is far from bad. Maynor is bad, Vesely is bad, Seraphin is bad. Beal is not even close to bad. Funny that Wall is only average but Ariza is a good player. Yet Ariza is getting ALL of his points on shots set up by, none other than, Mr. Wall.

The problem with the Wizards is their bench. They have no one on the bench that is good at all. Whenever the bench comes in they get destroyed and it is putting a ton of minutes and wear on the starters.
Wall is not top 5

TheNumber37
12-03-2013, 01:56 PM
I thought they'd destroy last year but injuries took foot. This year, though, I expected them to be a #5-7 seed. Yet, they're toiling around at around .500.


Why is a team with these guys not dominating?

John Wall
Bradly Beal
Marcin Gortat
Trevor Ariza
Nene Hilario

Those are some pretty damn solid players. Guys that are/could be #2 options or #3 options. Yes, their #1 option (Wall) isn't the best #1 option, but they have a slew of other players which are just great STARTERS for any team.

So, why do you think they aren't a better team?


I see Wall as Option 3 on a championship team...
I don't see how Beal, Nene, Gortat or Ariza are 2nd option guys. Or even 3rd for on great teams. 4th options for Nene and Gortat for sure.. Beal a 6th man definitely.

EAGLES3658
12-03-2013, 02:07 PM
Beal a 6th man? Lol

D-Leethal
12-03-2013, 03:04 PM
Collective IQ and lack of leadership.

John Walls Era
12-03-2013, 04:25 PM
Trevor Ariza and Nene Hilario suck. Ones a chucker and the others still fat.

Idiots love Irving cuz they see him on commercials. Wall is too busy leading the Wizards to the playoffs.

Byronicle
12-03-2013, 05:40 PM
They need to gel

Everyone forgot Wall, Nene, Ariza and Beal all missed time last year

and they just acquired Gortat

wizardsfan3
12-03-2013, 06:01 PM
LOL have any of you watched any wizards games this year besides eagles and john wall era? John Wall has definitely stepped it up averaging 19 9 and 4. He's had double doubles majority of the year and he WILL lead this team to the playoffs. And you can tell he worked on his jumper this past summer, he has improved 6.6% behind the arc compared to last year. Beal was playing great at the 2 guard before he got injured and Gortat was a good addition. Trevor Ariza has stepped it up as well. The bench and coaching are the weak spots on this team.

EAGLES3658
12-03-2013, 06:42 PM
People don't understand how much better John Wall makes his teammates and that is exactly what you want out of your best player. I think it is safe to say that Webster and Ariza both having career years is a direct product of playing with Wall.

SPURSFAN1
12-03-2013, 06:48 PM
Paying max money to people that don't deserve it is one.

king4day
12-03-2013, 07:07 PM
Aren't they one of the hottest teams in the league?

WES KOAST
12-03-2013, 08:09 PM
Trevor Ariza and Nene Hilario suck. Ones a chucker and the others still fat.

Idiots love Irving cuz they see him on commercials. Wall is too busy leading the Wizards to the playoffs.

maybe cuz wizards have more talent?

lillard > irving > wall

u still mad?

EAGLES3658
12-03-2013, 08:27 PM
maybe cuz wizards have more talent?

lillard > irving > wall

u still mad?
Wall is better than Lillard as well but nice try.

Shareeb_omac2
12-03-2013, 08:37 PM
Wall is terribly underrated. Whenever the Wizards finally break into the playoffs everyone will jump on his bandwagon.

And I'm not even a Wizards fan. Just live in the area and get to see a lot of their games.

IndyRealist
12-04-2013, 01:00 PM
Funniest thing I heard today. Wall is a top 5 PG. Beal is far from bad. Maynor is bad, Vesely is bad, Seraphin is bad. Beal is not even close to bad. Funny that Wall is only average but Ariza is a good player. Yet Ariza is getting ALL of his points on shots set up by, none other than, Mr. Wall.

The problem with the Wizards is their bench. They have no one on the bench that is good at all. Whenever the bench comes in they get destroyed and it is putting a ton of minutes and wear on the starters.

I'd like to point out that while Beal is shooting a respectable 44% on 3's, he is also shooting a miserable 39% on shots that are not 3's. Those miserable 2's constitute 13 of his 19 shot attempts per game. Trevor Ariza, by comparison, shoots 52.6% on 2's and 43% on 3's. And before says something ridiculous about usage, Ariza takes MORE 3's per minute than Beal. Beal's ORtg? 98, significantly worse than the team's 103.4. Ariza's is 109, btw.

As for the idea that Ariza is only good because Wall sets him up, why isn't Wall setting up Beal then? They certainly play enough together, considering Beal pays 40+ mpg. And considering Wall is 2nd on the team in shot attempts, he seems to call his own number an awful lot.

IndyRealist
12-04-2013, 01:10 PM
Right. Averaging 20.6ppg is "bad for now". Do you even watch basketball?

Research before spewing out nonsense. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6580/bradley-beal

Oh that's right, PPG is the only thing that matters.

Nevermind that Beal takes 19 shots per game to get to 20 points. Or that he shoots a miserable 39% on 2's, which constitute 2/3 of his shots. Or that the Wizards are better offensively when he's not on the floor (98 Ortg on vs. 103.4 team average, on/off not currently available on basketball-reference).

That's right, "research" only involves looking up a player's PPG.

Sactown
12-04-2013, 01:23 PM
I'd like to point out that while Beal is shooting a respectable 44% on 3's, he is also shooting a miserable 39% on shots that are not 3's. Those miserable 2's constitute 13 of his 19 shot attempts per game. Trevor Ariza, by comparison, shoots 52.6% on 2's and 43% on 3's. And before says something ridiculous about usage, Ariza takes MORE 3's per minute than Beal. Beal's ORtg? 98, significantly worse than the team's 103.4. Ariza's is 109, btw.

As for the idea that Ariza is only good because Wall sets him up, why isn't Wall setting up Beal then? They certainly play enough together, considering Beal pays 40+ mpg. And considering Wall is 2nd on the team in shot attempts, he seems to call his own number an awful lot.

John Wall has the same assist % as Curry and has a higher % than Lawson. He takes about the same amount of shots per 36 as Lawson as well... Really hard to criticize him there...

He needs to work on his efficiency, but he's still way more efficient than Irving (TS .487%) with a higher assist % than Irving and John Wall has led his team to a 7-2 record over the last 9 games.

And if you're going to insult beals ORTG look at Irving's... 99..

IndyRealist
12-04-2013, 02:09 PM
John Wall has the same assist % as Curry and has a higher % than Lawson. He takes about the same amount of shots per 36 as Lawson as well... Really hard to criticize him there...

He needs to work on his efficiency, but he's still way more efficient than Irving (TS .487%) with a higher assist % than Irving and John Wall has led his team to a 7-2 record over the last 9 games.

And if you're going to insult beals ORTG look at Irving's... 99..
Comparing him to Irving is not a complement considering how bad of a year Irving is having.

As far as Curry, why should Wall take as many shots per 36 minutes as Curry when Curry is better on 2's, 3's and FT's? Let me reiterate, Stephen Curry is better at EVERY aspect of scoring. Do we really not understand how huge of a difference 59.4% vs 51.5% TS is?

Guppyfighter
12-04-2013, 02:18 PM
Right. Averaging 20.6ppg is "bad for now". Do you even watch basketball?

Research before spewing out nonsense. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6580/bradley-beal

Every one knows points per game is one of the worst stats to judge players, but here we are, people still using stats that don't show anything to judge players.

I suggest you try watching the game and not using box scores.

EAGLES3658
12-04-2013, 02:24 PM
Beal has been taking too many bad shots this year, still a very small sample size but hopefully he doesn't try to do too much when he comes back.

John Walls Era
12-04-2013, 04:00 PM
maybe cuz wizards have more talent?

lillard > irving > wall

u still mad?

Damn. We got a basketball prof here. Hes throwing equations at us now.

I don't know why I spend time with a guy whos been here for a few months and someone who can't even spell their username correctly. Don't think I'll do that again...

John Walls Era
12-04-2013, 04:01 PM
Whats their record?

John Walls Era
12-04-2013, 04:02 PM
Comparing him to Irving is not a complement considering how bad of a year Irving is having.

As far as Curry, why should Wall take as many shots per 36 minutes as Curry when Curry is better on 2's, 3's and FT's? Let me reiterate, Stephen Curry is better at EVERY aspect of scoring. Do we really not understand how huge of a difference 59.4% vs 51.5% TS is?

Irving has a bad year every year. What else is new? I know hes planning to ditch Cleveland to team up with another star, so I give him the pass there. I actually give him credit for that.

Guppyfighter
12-04-2013, 04:31 PM
This is actually irving's first inefficient offensive year. Wall has been better than him in our small sample. But Lillard has been better than Wall and Irving.

Swashcuff
12-04-2013, 04:39 PM
Didn't Wall play the first 3 weeks of the season with back spasms? I'd venture to guess that that has had something to do with his "poor" start to the year.

Injuries to Ariza, Nene, Beal and Wall IMO has hampered them a bit. I see them finishing over .500 in the East this season if John Wall can remain healthy.

John Walls Era
12-04-2013, 05:03 PM
This is actually irving's first inefficient offensive year. Wall has been better than him in our small sample. But Lillard has been better than Wall and Irving.

who has a better team? Walls crap Wizards are Lilliards stacked Blazers who near the top of the West. Wall has been playing great since last years allstar break but doesn't get the credit because hes not making commercials with crappy drink companies (Pepsi sucks).

EDIT: the brand is good. I like Gatorate, I just mean the crappy cola (Diet Pepsi use to be good, but then Coke 0 was invented).

IndyRealist
12-04-2013, 05:07 PM
Didn't Wall play the first 3 weeks of the season with back spasms? I'd venture to guess that that has had something to do with his "poor" start to the year.

Injuries to Ariza, Nene, Beal and Wall IMO has hampered them a bit. I see them finishing over .500 in the East this season if John Wall can remain healthy.

Which is the danger of small sample sizes. A couple of bad weeks don't mean anything over a season, but over 5 weeks?

Guppyfighter
12-04-2013, 05:23 PM
who has a better team? Walls crap Wizards are Lilliards stacked Blazers who near the top of the West. Wall has been playing great since last years allstar break but doesn't get the credit because hes not making commercials with crappy drink companies (Pepsi sucks).

EDIT: the brand is good. I like Gatorate, I just mean the crappy cola (Diet Pepsi use to be good, but then Coke 0 was invented).


lillard was better than Wall last year as well. And he had the most minutes in the league. pretty impressive stuff.

Swashcuff
12-04-2013, 05:24 PM
Which is the danger of small sample sizes. A couple of bad weeks don't mean anything over a season, but over 5 weeks?

I'm confused. Do you think Wall's entire 5 weeks have been bad?

John Walls Era
12-04-2013, 05:27 PM
lillard was better than Wall last year as well. And he had the most minutes in the league. pretty impressive stuff.

After AS break, Wall was one of the best PGs in the league.

Swashcuff
12-04-2013, 05:28 PM
lillard was better than Wall last year as well. And he had the most minutes in the league. pretty impressive stuff.

What made Lillard better than Wall last year? Hell what makes him better this year. He's a better shooter. Cool what else makes Damian Lillard a better player than John Wall?

EAGLES3658
12-04-2013, 07:14 PM
Isn't Lillard shooting under 40%?

J4KOP99
12-04-2013, 07:20 PM
Why won't this wig come off?

Guppyfighter
12-04-2013, 08:29 PM
After AS break, Wall was one of the best PGs in the league.

You mean, people felt he was because he came back to one of the worst offenses in the league and one of the worst offenses in the first half ever. It's pretty easy to look good if you are improving from somthing worse than fifty feet of crap.

Guppyfighter
12-04-2013, 08:30 PM
What made Lillard better than Wall last year? Hell what makes him better this year. He's a better shooter. Cool what else makes Damian Lillard a better player than John Wall?

Lillard scored 18 points much more efficiently than John Wall and turned it over less. If you want to win more right now, you take Lillard. Hands down.

Guppyfighter
12-04-2013, 08:31 PM
Isn't Lillard shooting under 40%?

TS percentage of 551. Another great reason to never use FG percentage.

NBA_Starter
12-04-2013, 09:46 PM
Lillard scored 18 points much more efficiently than John Wall and turned it over less. If you want to win more right now, you take Lillard. Hands down.

It is hard to argue that with the way Portland is rolling right along.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
12-04-2013, 10:03 PM
They need a new HC.

Sactown
12-04-2013, 10:41 PM
TS percentage of 551. Another great reason to never use FG percentage. TS% is flawed as well. Still not an excuse to take 16 shots to get 20 points, which excludes the attempts at the FT line.

Swashcuff
12-04-2013, 10:59 PM
Lillard scored 18 points much more efficiently than John Wall and turned it over less. If you want to win more right now, you take Lillard. Hands down.

How much less did Lillard turn it over? How about you take in consideration the fact that Wall is a MUCH better play maker and defensive player than Lillard. Damn near any PG who passes as much as Wall is going to turn the ball over at a great rate, Lillard is no one near Wall in terms of play making ability.

I don't understand this win now philosophy. The Celtics "won now" with a PG that was an inefficient scorer and elite play maker, so did the Mavs. If you want to win now? Where was this last year when the Blazers were struggling big time, now that they are successful Lillard is the better win now PG. Wall was better last year, injuries aside he has shown that he is going to be better this year as well. Lillard is a more efficient scorer and that's about all that he has on John Wall. If I want to win now I pick the player who is better suited for my team to be successful.

Swashcuff
12-04-2013, 11:00 PM
TS% is flawed as well. Still not an excuse to take 16 shots to get 20 points, which excludes the attempts at the FT line.

What flaws do you see in TS%?

Sactown
12-05-2013, 12:00 AM
What flaws do you see in TS%?

Heavily benefits ft shooters, even if it requires the same amount of possessions to achieve the same amount of points

Swashcuff
12-05-2013, 12:08 AM
Heavily benefits ft shooters, even if it requires the same amount of possessions to achieve the same amount of points

That's not a flaw bro that's basketball 101. If you're unable to get it to fall from the field get to the line to attempt the FREE throws. That's not a flaw.

Guppyfighter
12-05-2013, 12:10 AM
Heavily benefits ft shooters, even if it requires the same amount of possessions to achieve the same amount of points

It's actually the perfect amount for free throw shooting. They even ran regression models to figure it out.

Besides, being able to get to the line is rather ****ing important.

Sactown
12-05-2013, 12:16 AM
It's actually the perfect amount for free throw shooting. They even ran regression models to figure it out.

Besides, being able to get to the line is rather ****ing important.

It has it's flaws... Example.. If I go down the court and get fouled and make two free throws and end up with two points... My true shooting is 114% if I go down the court and make a layup.. My true shooting is 100%.. The difference is 14% even though both scenarios took 1 possession to score two points.

Another scenario..

I go down the court on two possessions and hit two three pointers .. So 6 points in 2 shots gives me a TS% of 150% .

Another guy goes down on two possessions, is fouled on both and he gets 4 points. His true shooting percentage is 227%

The difference is 77% in favor of the guy who scores free throws! even if he gets only four points when the other guy got 6 in the same amount of possessions... How you can shoot over 100% is beyond me anyways

John Walls Era
12-05-2013, 09:35 AM
People can't see true greatness and this is PSD so I'm not surprised that some morons would think Lilliard is better than Wall. Especially someone who can't look past all the scoring stats.

John Walls Era
12-05-2013, 09:36 AM
You mean, people felt he was because he came back to one of the worst offenses in the league and one of the worst offenses in the first half ever. It's pretty easy to look good if you are improving from somthing worse than fifty feet of crap.

Sounds dumb. His stats show he was playing like one of the best.

Guppyfighter
12-05-2013, 09:37 AM
Sounds dumb. His stats show he was playing like one of the best.

Yeah, maybe if you use archaic, ancient stats that no front office even looks at anymore.

John Walls Era
12-05-2013, 09:42 AM
Yeah, maybe if you use archaic, ancient stats that no front office even looks at anymore.

all you used are scoring stats. show me something else. you realize they're pgs? Playmaking? Eye-Test? I'm looking at arbitrary stats.

D-Leethal
12-05-2013, 10:56 AM
all you used are scoring stats. show me something else. you realize they're pgs? Playmaking? Eye-Test? I'm looking at arbitrary stats.

If it ain't scoring efficiency it don't matter bru.

Sactown
12-05-2013, 02:27 PM
If it ain't scoring efficiency it don't matter bru.

The efficiency difference is so minor. Lillard gets 20.6 points on 16.7 shots and 6 free throws a game

Wall gets 19 points on 16.2 shots and 5 free throws lol..

Wall is clearly the better inside shooter while Lillard is a better three point shooter.

John Walls Era
12-05-2013, 02:56 PM
I'll let the other smart posters finish this. I don't really wanna waste anymore time on trivial obvious topics.

Guppyfighter
12-05-2013, 07:04 PM
It has it's flaws... Example.. If I go down the court and get fouled and make two free throws and end up with two points... My true shooting is 114% if I go down the court and make a layup.. My true shooting is 100%.. The difference is 14% even though both scenarios took 1 possession to score two points.

Another scenario..

I go down the court on two possessions and hit two three pointers .. So 6 points in 2 shots gives me a TS% of 150% .

Another guy goes down on two possessions, is fouled on both and he gets 4 points. His true shooting percentage is 227%

The difference is 77% in favor of the guy who scores free throws! even if he gets only four points when the other guy got 6 in the same amount of possessions... How you can shoot over 100% is beyond me anyways

It's quite simple really. Just extrapolate the numbers.

If you have 60 percent on free throws and for some ******** reason, you took free throws the entire game, but also only had 100 possessions, you would have the best offense in the entire league. You shoot 40 percent on threes and had the same amount of possessions. The true shooting for the free throws will be higher still and by quite a bit, but if this happens every game, you will win more with the free throws. There is less variation. And then, you have to realize, most players hit more than 60 percent.

Free throws are ultra important.

Guppyfighter
12-05-2013, 07:07 PM
If it ain't scoring efficiency it don't matter bru.

I know you don't like to know things well and sometimes that makes you say stupid ****. Like every player who has played with Dirk has gotten better (OJ Mayo is just one counter example of many) or that the Lakers are going to finish with a better record than the Rockets.

It's not my fault you are ignorant to stats and don't give them as much credit as they are due. Basketball isn't a game of feeling, it's a game of concrete finite series of events that can be measured as such. Everything on offense always adds up.

Of course, it's more complicated with defense, but it's still vastly better than the eye test. The eye test will tell you John Wall is good at defense because blocks are awesome to see and that Curry is bad at defense. But you delve into the stats and you see even last year Curry was a good defender and point guards did worse vs him (notably Chris Paul) while John Wall this year by a shoddy Lakers backcourt because he gambles far too much and thinks he can recover.

Wall is an elite finisher and he passes well, but he can't shoot and it is an extreme detriment to his ability to impact a basketball game.

NoahH
12-05-2013, 08:35 PM
i mean, they're gonna be 3rd in the east after tonight, lol.

seriously though there bench is pretty awful, Nene isn't that good and Beal is injured. When Otto Porter comes back maybe they can get something good going but until then they are a .500 team.

Hahah i was gonna say that exactly

NBA_Starter
12-05-2013, 09:02 PM
That is the cold hard truth.:)

Swashcuff
12-12-2013, 03:51 PM
It has it's flaws... Example.. If I go down the court and get fouled and make two free throws and end up with two points... My true shooting is 114% if I go down the court and make a layup.. My true shooting is 100%.. The difference is 14% even though both scenarios took 1 possession to score two points.

Another scenario..

I go down the court on two possessions and hit two three pointers .. So 6 points in 2 shots gives me a TS% of 150% .

Another guy goes down on two possessions, is fouled on both and he gets 4 points. His true shooting percentage is 227%

The difference is 77% in favor of the guy who scores free throws! even if he gets only four points when the other guy got 6 in the same amount of possessions... How you can shoot over 100% is beyond me anyways

Nice thanks for posting this so you can further validate my point.

Tell me what exactly does TS% measure. Once you know the answer to that "shooting" over 100% will never be beyond you.

lakeshow22
12-12-2013, 06:45 PM
No Beal